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Offline Ginger Rella

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Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 10:39:31 »
It has been said... "beware of what you ask"

One at a time now....

Please give your commentary as to what was wrong with Billy Graham and what he preached.

In another thread it was said he had a sneaky way to do altar calls.....

So lets have the worst of it and then scramble and find more.

Many of us who respected the man want to know.


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Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 10:39:31 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #1 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 11:57:53 »
Oh goodness...an alter call is always a good thing! I hope whoever said that he had a sneaky way with them was kidding...

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #1 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 11:57:53 »

Offline notreligus

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #2 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 13:36:54 »
The criticism I remember since the time I became aware of Billy Graham many years ago was that he did not tell coverts that they needed to be water baptized.  Some criticisms went so far as to claim that he should have had a way to baptize converts right then and there where he was preaching.  When I was a decision counselor at a particular church I had to follow what the elders prescribed and they insisted that I try my best to convince those who came forward that they needed to be water baptized before they left the building.  Many I met with wanted to invite family members to their baptism and would insist on delaying it.   

Offline chosenone

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #3 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 16:03:21 »
I went and saw him on one of his London crusades. I think it was in the 80's.  Nothing sneaky at all.

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #3 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 16:03:21 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 16:57:05 »
The criticism I remember since the time I became aware of Billy Graham many years ago was that he did not tell coverts that they needed to be water baptized.  Some criticisms went so far as to claim that he should have had a way to baptize converts right then and there where he was preaching.  When I was a decision counselor at a particular church I had to follow what the elders prescribed and they insisted that I try my best to convince those who came forward that they needed to be water baptized before they left the building.  Many I met with wanted to invite family members to their baptism and would insist on delaying it.

Billy Graham on Baptizing:

“Baptism is a conclusive act of obedience and witness to the world that we are Christ’s. I believe in it wholeheartedly. In our crusades we don’t baptize because we feel that this should be done by the local pastors—and that if I baptized, some people would say they had been baptized by me, and that would be putting the emphasis on the wrong person. To one who has received Christ, baptism is a necessary and meaningful experience. But, I must say with Paul: ‘Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel’ (1 Corinthians 1:17).”

When he was on air Jack Van Impe issued a call every week and at the end of the service Rexella would tell those who prayed
with Jack to write her for a free booklet, "First Steps in a New Direction"

I would be willing to bet that baptism was among those first steps.

Have you any idea if anything was handed to the people after who came forward?

IF it was mentioned in service... everyone who went forward or even just prayed who had been sprinkled as a baby would just feel
that that had that covered already. I know that to be a fact cause I used to think that.


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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 16:57:05 »



Offline mommydi

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #5 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 17:04:31 »
Billy Graham on Baptizing:

“Baptism is a conclusive act of obedience and witness to the world that we are Christ’s. I believe in it wholeheartedly. In our crusades we don’t baptize because we feel that this should be done by the local pastors—and that if I baptized, some people would say they had been baptized by me, and that would be putting the emphasis on the wrong person. To one who has received Christ, baptism is a necessary and meaningful experience. But, I must say with Paul: ‘Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel’ (1 Corinthians 1:17).”

When he was on air Jack Van Impe issued a call every week and at the end of the service Rexella would tell those who prayed
with Jack to write her for a free booklet, "First Steps in a New Direction"

I would be willing to bet that baptism was among those first steps.

Have you any idea if anything was handed to the people after who came forward?

IF it was mentioned in service... everyone who went forward or even just prayed who had been sprinkled as a baby would just feel
that that had that covered already. I know that to be a fact cause I used to think that.

So Billy Graham did believe that baptism is "necessary" but did he mention that in his sermons? IDK because I never watched his tv sermons.

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #6 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 17:16:11 »
So Billy Graham did believe that baptism is "necessary" but did he mention that in his sermons? IDK because I never watched his tv sermons.

I do not know, I never did either.

But that does not mean that he did not encourage behind the scenes, or his staff.

If he did can you imagine how many people would go bragging Billy Graham baptized me... or how many would line up for that with out really having accepted Jesus.?

I know several people who have gone to Israel and been baptized in the Jordan and they always tell they got Baptized in the Jordan.

I even was looking into that, today in fact, cause it sounds neat but is not the meaning that should be for that. So I drpped that idea before it started....

So yes.... he did believe it.

Offline mommydi

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #7 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 17:25:04 »
Years ago, my mother-in-law (Baptist) got into a big argument with her mother (1st Christian) about Billy Graham and speaking in tongues. Her mother said she went to a Billy Graham crusade where the woman next to her started speaking in tongues. My mil said that wouldn't have happened there. They argued about it off and on all afternoon.  rofl

Ahhhh, the memories.  ::noworries:: 

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 17:49:24 »
Years ago, my mother-in-law (Baptist) got into a big argument with her mother (1st Christian) about Billy Graham and speaking in tongues. Her mother said she went to a Billy Graham crusade where the woman next to her started speaking in tongues. My mil said that wouldn't have happened there. They argued about it off and on all afternoon.  rofl

Ahhhh, the memories.  ::noworries::

Now that is funny. A good one for you to remember .

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #9 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 18:00:58 »
Oh goodness...an alter call is always a good thing! I hope whoever said that he had a sneaky way with them was kidding...

I'll be the resident contrarian.  I've seen some pretty hokey altar calls.  Where the guy up front says to close your eyes.  Then says "yes, yes brother" and acts like people are responding.

But as a teen, my eyes were not completely closed and the guy was lying. 

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #10 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 18:52:50 »
Years ago, my mother-in-law (Baptist) got into a big argument with her mother (1st Christian) about Billy Graham and speaking in tongues. Her mother said she went to a Billy Graham crusade where the woman next to her started speaking in tongues. My mil said that wouldn't have happened there. They argued about it off and on all afternoon.  rofl

Ahhhh, the memories.  ::noworries::

Ok, why was MIL so sure it would not have happened, and why should it be a big deal if it did?

Offline mommydi

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #11 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 19:43:57 »
Ok, why was MIL so sure it would not have happened, and why should it be a big deal if it did?

Beats me. MIL kept insisting that grandma would never hear such a thing at a Southern Baptist service and that she must have been mistaken and heard it at some tent revival somewhere. Grandma kept insisting (louder and louder) that she didn't go to tent revivals but had attended one of Billy Graham's crusade meetings with a friend and the lady sitting by them started speaking in tongues. Then MIL wanted to know the name of the friend so she could confirm it. Went on all afternoon. I just put on my listening ears and  ::eatingpopcorn:



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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #12 on: Fri Mar 02, 2018 - 23:25:40 »
Beats me. MIL kept insisting that grandma would never hear such a thing at a Southern Baptist service and that she must have been mistaken and heard it at some tent revival somewhere. Grandma kept insisting (louder and louder) that she didn't go to tent revivals but had attended one of Billy Graham's crusade meetings with a friend and the lady sitting by them started speaking in tongues. Then MIL wanted to know the name of the friend so she could confirm it. Went on all afternoon. I just put on my listening ears and  ::eatingpopcorn:

I thought tent revivals were how BG got started.  Even though he was Southern Baptist and not himself Charismatic, I suspect his meetings were pretty eclectic, and that he did not exactly preface them by saying, "Ok everyone, make sure no one does anything un-Baptisty."

People are funny.

Offline RB

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #13 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 04:07:28 »
Many of us who respected the man want to know.
I believe I know him as well as anyone on this forum. He was born in Charlotte, N.C. a year after my father and have heard of him since I was a boy born and raised in Winston-Salem, N.C. ninety miles sightly NE from Charlotte. Mr. Graham lived even until his death about 60 miles from where I now lived and have been close to his homeplace many, many times even very recently. He's the largest landowner in N.C.~at least at one time, maybe not now but can easily be check out.

I know what he believed and what he did not. He started out at Bob Jones University when the school was located in Tennesse, but now in Greenville, S.C. where he was not welcome and never spoke at the university after he left~which may be a good thing for Mr. Graham.... I'll leave that to God. They BOTH believe the same more or less, only Mr. Graham would fellowship with any and all in the name of religion, NOT Christianity. There are MANY religions in this world, but only one is from heaven approved by the word of God.

The biggest and most serious error and I will add corruption that Mr. Graham taught and was that he was champion of the system called easy-believe-ism~better known as decisional regeneration. The Jesus Christ he proclaimed and taught around the world to is not the same Jesus Christ Paul preached. Either Paul was a false prophet, or Billy Graham was--they did not preach the same Christ, EVEN THOUGH the words flowed freely from his lips, yet IN A WAY that even got him to lay in honor at the U.S. Capitol Rotunda.  Only four private citizens have had that honor....an honor that Jesus would have NEVER HAD, he was crucified naked on a cross, and just before his crucifixion, he was greatly humiliated, with mocking, spitting on him, and pulling his beard out, etc, etc.

The world could accept what BG taught because it allowed them to have a sense of THEM CONTROLLING THEIR DESTINY and making God a helpless bystander WAITING for THEM to SAVE THEMSELVES by THEIR decisions, as though it was in their power to do so! All of which is against God's testimony that is in the scriptures, which scriptures they claim to believe, but it is a pick and chose religion that people like Mr. Graham preached and the world CAN ACCEPT because it put power IN THEIR hands and NOT in God's.  MOST hate a God that does as HE PLEASES, who ALONE is infinite in every way imaginable to the human mind.

Decisional regeneration is a lie and against God's testimony. The first Adam's decision sent all into sin, darkness and at enmity against God. We are set FREE through Jesus Christ by the Spirit of the living God quickening our imprison spirits that are in BONDAGE to sin and Satan. It not as easy as such men like Mr. Graham taught and besides, the crown of glory is truly placed on man's head for his own decision to follow Christ.

The many who walked the isles through BG's gifted persuasion where sent back to find themselves a place of worship be it Isalm, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormonism, Catholicism, liberal Baptist churches (where he was a member in Spartanburg, S.C.), etc. etc.

Christianity is much more than what Mr BG presented to the world~There's a cross to bear, there are TRUTHS to defend, there's a war against spiritual wickedness in high places, which place, Mr. Graham like the Pope's and others have no problem befriended them and having their admiration of them. Something is seriously wrong when that happens. Jesus was NOT a friend of higher powers, and the doors certainly did not swing wide open for him in his days UNLESS he was being judged.

How can anyone read such scriptures as:
Quote
Hebrews 11:33-38~"Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
They were fed to lions, slaughtered with swords; thrown in furnaces of fire; were tortured in different ways; stoned to death; tormented, and forced to leave their land and WANDERED about not in fancy clothes and private jets,  but whatever they could kill to make their own clothes.

Bottom line, speaking the name of Jesus Christ freely makes it EASIER to deceived multitudes if you offer to them a religion where they can still feel in control of their own life and destiny and NOT under the demands of another, namely the God who created all things. Most are like Pharoah of old who said: WHO is the LORD that "I" should obey him? A true believer LOSE their life NOW that they may find it in the world to come! It is not popular, with the world, But God has called us to FLEE Sodom and Gomorrah, and NOT look back.   

« Last Edit: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 13:15:24 by RB »

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #14 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 06:24:50 »
Decisional regeneration is a lie and against God's testimony. The first Adam's decision sent all into sin, darkness and at enmity against God.
Sorry, RB, but the lie here is that Adam's decision sent all into sin, darkness and at enmity against God.  It didn't. The Bible never says it did.

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #15 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 10:53:52 »
I believe I know him as well as anyone on this forum. He was born in Charlotte, N.C. a year after my father and have heard of him since I was a boy born and raised in Winston-Salem, N.C. ninety miles sightly NE from Charlotte. Mr. Graham lived even until his death about 60 miles from where I now lived and have been close to his homeplace many, many times even very recently. He's the largest landowner in N.C.~at least at one time, maybe not now but can easily be check out.

I know what he believed and what he did not. He started out at Bob Jones University when the school was located in Tennesse, but now in Greenville, S.C. where he was not welcome and never spoke at the university after he left~which may be a good thing for Mr. Graham.... I'll leave that to God. They BOTH believe the same more or less, only Mr. Graham would fellowship with any and all in the name of religion, NOT Christianity. There are MANY religions in this world, but only one is from heaven approved by the word of God.

The biggest and most serious error and I will add corruption that Mr. Graham taught and was that he was champion of the system called easy-believe-ism~better known as decisional regeneration. The Jesus Christ he proclaimed and taught around the world to is not the same Jesus Christ Paul preached. Either Paul was a false prophet, or Billy Graham was--they did not preach the same Christ, EVEN THOUGH the words flowed freely from his lips, yet IN A WAY that even got him to lay in honor at the U.S. Capitol Rotunda.  Only four private citizens have had that honor....an honor that Jesus would have NEVER HAD, he was crucified naked on a cross, and just before his crucifixion, he was greatly humiliated, with mocking, spitting on him, and pulling his beard out, etc, etc.

The world could accept what BG taught because it allowed them to have a sense of THEM CONTROLLING THEIR DESTINY and making God a helpless bystander WAITING for THEM to SAVE THEMSELVES by THEIR decisions, as though it was in their power to do so! All of which is against God's testimony that is in the scriptures, which scriptures they claim to believe, but it is a pick and chose religion that people like Mr. Graham preached and the world CAN ACCEPT because it put power IN THEIR hands and NOT in God's.  MOST hate a God that does as HE PLEASES, who ALONE is infinite in every way imaginable to the human mind.

Decisional regeneration is a lie and against God's testimony. The first Adam's decision sent all into sin, darkness and at enmity against God. We are set FREE through Jesus Christ by the Spirit of the living God quickening our imprison spirits that are in BONDAGE to sin and Satan. It not as easy as such men like Mr. Graham taught and besides, the crown of glory is truly placed on man's head for his own decision to follow Christ.

The many who walked the isles through BG's gifted persuasion where sent back to find themselves a place of worship be it Isalm, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormonism, Catholicism, liberal Baptist churches (where he was a member in Spartanburg, S.C.), etc. etc.

Christianity is much more than what Mr BG presented to the world~There's a cross to bear, there are TRUTHS to defend, there's a war against spiritual wickedness in high places, which place, Mr. Graham like the Pope's and others have no problem befriended them and having their admiration of them. Something is seriously wrong when that happens. Jesus was NOT a friend of higher powers, and the doors certainly did not swing wide open for him in his days UNLESS he was being judged.

How can anyone read such scriptures as:They were fed to lions, slaughtered with swords; thrown in furnaces of fire; were tortured in different ways; stoned to death; tormented, and forced to leave their land and WANDERED about not in fancy clothes and private jets,  but whatever they could kill to make their own clothes.

Bottom line, speaking the name of Jesus Christ freely makes it EASIER to deceived multitudes if you offer to them a religion where they can still feel in control of their own life and destiny and NOT under the demands of another, namely the God who created all things. Most are like Pharoah of old who said: WHO is the LORD that "I" should obey him? True believer LOSE their life NOW that they may find it in the world to come! It is not popular, with the world, But God has called us to FLEE Sodom and Gomorrah, and NOT look back.

I
am
absolutely
speechless...





 

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #16 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 11:18:35 »
https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2018/02/21/billy-graham-had-rocky-relationship-bob-jones-university-and-its-past-presidents/360074002/

Just thought I'd offer another side of the issues brought up.

We've family members that've graduated from BJU...and it was a struggle to be in relationship with them soon after they came out of the teaching there.  Our bibles were questioned and called "wrong", our music, our way of dress...everything was deemed "sinful" and we were looked up as if prodigal children.

Over the years, they've relaxed and learned of grace and how to apply it. Its so refreshing when Romans 14 can be put into practice.








Offline RB

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #17 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 13:10:42 »
I
am
absolutely
speechless...
It does not surprise me. I would have been surprised if you agree with me, and do not expect many to agree. Truth is not accepted by the majority, never has been and never will be, and even less as time goes on. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 13:14:11 by RB »

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #18 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 16:02:09 »
It does not surprise me. I would have been surprised if you agree with me, and do not expect many to agree. Truth is not accepted by the majority, never has been and never will be, and even less as time goes on. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5.


I have read many of his books and didn't read anything that wasn't Biblical. I am usually pretty sensitive to false teachers. I get this cringing feeling in my spirit if they are false, and not once did I get that with him. His preaching has led countless people to Jesus Christ, more than anyone else in modern times I suspect. 

Offline Ginger Rella

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #19 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 16:49:40 »

I have read many of his books and didn't read anything that wasn't Biblical. I am usually pretty sensitive to false teachers. I get this cringing feeling in my spirit if they are false, and not once did I get that with him. His preaching has led countless people to Jesus Christ, more than anyone else in modern times I suspect.

I agree with you Chosenone,
that
I can suure you that he would stand a far better chance at leading people to Christ then we at Grace Centered would with all of the debates making new members wonder who could possibly be right.

I think the main issue some fine is like so many evangelists.

They teach Jesus is the way and the only way, but if they do not follow up in the very next sentence get thee to a baptism, then they are false teachers.

Yet even those on GC do not 100% agree with the the reason you get thee to a baptism.

True story: Within the past 5 months I have talked to a Baptist minister who said... "Yes, you must be baptised after receiving Jesus.... but it is not necessary to be saved."  (This one also tells his parishioners if they do not attend weekly service they are not saved. You have to go to church to be)

Then  also spoke with a Churches of Christ minister who espouses that you must be baptised after receiving Jesus as it is the completion of the salvation process.

So , as Rev Graham did not jump up and down about the baptism end.... he is a false teacher.

I truly believe that is what is behind the negative comments.

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #20 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 18:52:59 »
It's hard for me to see that "baptism" is the main complaint about him just from what has appeared in this thread.

In another thread, Jason_NC mentioned "sneaky" altar calls, but never explained.  Someone else referenced that here, but Jason has still not explained.

The most voluminous and venomous vitriol has been about the facts

1)  that BG apparently had an Arminian view of rebirth, and

2)  that BG did not have a John-the-Baptist lifestyle.


It's always fun to see oneself as part of the tiny righteous remnant, while everyone else is damned.

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #21 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 04:11:06 »

This was in my email this morning from Mike Jeshurun a friend from the nation of India. RB
   

A LETTER TO THOSE WHO APOLOGIZE FOR BILLY GRAHAM

The following was a letter the Lord led us to write to members of a small closed forum who were trying to justify Billy Graham saying that “God used Billy Graham so why make a fuss?”
. . . . .
The tract by E.L. Bynum titled “Why We Cannot Support The Billy Graham Crusade” is not so much about whether God ‘used’ Billy Graham as it is about whether we in a good conscience can support or recommend such a ‘Ministry’

The Christian faith or the scriptures is not so much concerned as to how a man initially started his Christian walk as it is about how he fares NOW and how he finishes it! (1Cor 9:24) “The apostle had much to say about those who had ‘turned aside’ (1Tim 1:6; 5:15) and he does not speak favorably of them but on the contrary admonishes us to withdraw from such. (1Tim 6:5)

Did God ‘use’ Billy Graham? What of those who claim to have been initially blessed under his ministry? In other words if the man is basically a false teacher then how could God have used him to teach these Christians anything? But see, not ALL that Billy Graham and others like him teach is false. And when it suits His purpose Jehovah uses EVERYTHING starting from the Serpent who deceived our Parents to the worm which smote Jonah’s gourd! He uses men like Graham and the ‘Christian’ organizations they work for to make His name known among the nations and to prepare His elect for salvation. As the apostle said, "What then? Notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice" [Phil. 1:18].

But after we are shown clearly that someone’s teaching on major issues is false or that the man is thoroughly ecumenical then Paul’s admonition to us is to cut off from such! (Gal 5:12)

Our belief in Predestination and the Perseverance of the saints ought not to silence us from exposing those who preach a false gospel or those who speak favorably of the ‘Great Whore’! (Rev 19:2) . If false doctrine and separation were not so serious a matter as we are making it to be, then why make a big fuss and place a curse on the man or angel who preaches a false gospel?! [Gal 1:8,9] All the apostles seemed to be pretty concerned that the ‘gospel’ be preserved and preached in its purity. They also had much to say about ‘false brethren’ and the need to ‘test’ every spirit whether it be of God and warn the flock of God of wolves who come unto them in sheep’s clothing!

The late J.C. Ryle said in his ‘Warnings To the Churches’ —"Surely the dumb dog and the sleeping shepherd are the best allies of the wolf, the thief and the robber." And this is the very same thing Isaiah said long ago – “His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, THEY ARE ALL DUMB DOGS, THEY CANNOT BARK; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. they are GREEDY DOGS which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.” [Isaiah 56:10,11]

“Dumb dogs” is the blunt term Isaiah used to describe those of his day who failed in their duty of guarding the flock of God—“Dumb dogs, they cannot bark!” (Isa. 56:9-11) God forbid that we who love the Lord and His truth be found guilty of such a charge! Like the apostle we ought to be able to confidently declare on the Day of reckoning – “I am pure from the blood of all men!” [Acts 20:26]

The question to ask is not whether God uses men like Billy Graham but whether men like Billy be servants or sons! Is there a difference? Oh yes! And a big one at that! All the sons of God are in a sense His servants too but not all His servants are necessarily His sons!

As J.C. Philpot pointed out long ago - “Though at times they may be made God's instruments of good, perhaps, to His people, yet God shall have no more intention of final good towards them than to Ahab or Jezebel.”

Ahithophel was as if anyone had inquired at the oracle of God, so wise was he (II Sam. 16:23). He was David's "counselor;" and they went sweetly together to the house of God. Balaam, also, had the Spirit's gifted illumination. (Numbers 24:2). One of the greatest prophesies concerning Israel and the Messiah was prophesied by this false prophet, even Balaam– “there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth etc” [Num24:17] And Judas though a ‘son of perdition’ accompanied the disciples and preached and healed just as they did, so much so when Christ said, “one of you shall betray Me” nobody even had the faintest clue that it was Judas. And Demas was a coworker with Paul [Col 4:14] long before he went out ‘having loved this present world’ [1Tim 4;10].

To quote Philpot again, “Thus Balaam and Ahithopel were God's HIRED SERVANTS in gifts of wisdom, etc. "Thus saith the Lord God, If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons the inheritance thereof shall be his sons; it shall be their possession by inheritance. But if he give a gift to one of his servants, it shall be his (the servant's) ONLY TO A CERTAIN TIME, NOT FOREVER." (Ezek. 46:16 &c.) This latter was the character of such as Balaam, and is the character of many in our day. "As for their knowledge, though it may come from God," (Num. 22) which is a tough test to try many by, "it shall vanish away”!
“And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever”. [John 8:35]

We are convinced that men like Billy Graham and others like him who do not preach the whole truth, and unashamedly jump into bed with the ‘Great Whore’ are in reality those whom Christ called ‘hirelings’. For if they were truly sons, they would say with Paul – “For we can do nothing AGAINST the truth, but FOR the truth”! [2Cor 13:8]

Incidentally a ‘Christian’ is not just someone who embraces that which Christ loves, but one who HATES EVERYTHING which He abhors!

“Through Thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I HATE EVERY FALSE WAY”! [Psalm 119:104]

The Apostle’s admonition to those who call themselves ‘Christians’ is to – “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather REPROVE them”. [Eph 5:11] The word ‘reprove’ according to Strong’s means to ‘tell a fault’ confute and rebuke – in other words to PROTEST!

We have a moral imperative to examine what is proclaimed in Jesus’ Name, and to expose and condemn false teaching and ecumenical compromise. Even the apostle Paul felt it necessary at times to rebuke peopleby name in epistles meant to be read publicly [Phil. 4:2-3; I Tim. 1:20; II Tim. 2:17]. John, the apostle of love, wrote a scorching condemnation of Diotrephes, a church leader who was ignoring the apostles’ teaching [3 John 9:10]. The biblical challenge is not to avoid truth that is controversial, but to speak the truth in love [Eph. 4:15].

Was Jesus (the one I claim to follow) a ‘Protestant’? Maybe I need to go back and read about the time when my Lord made a scourge of small cords and drove out of the temple those who were making a merchandise of His Father’s house! This is one of the few instances which is recorded in ALL the four gospels. Must be PRETTY IMPORTANT! And the Apostle tells us WHY he did it – “It was written, The zeal of Thine house hath EATEN ME UP”! [John 2:17]

Trust me, if you have even a little bit of Christ’s Spirit, then this SAME ZEAL ‘will eat you up’!

How can you claim to be a Christian, if you are not PROTESTING against that which parades in your Lord’s garb, while making MERCHANDISE OF THE SOULS OF MEN?! [Rev 18:13]

Something’s SERIOUSLY WRONG with the ‘Christian’ who can shake hands with a Roman Catholic and call him a ‘brother’ when countless souls under the altar are crying out to God to avenge their blood on the Great Whore! (Rev 6:9,10)

If you haven’t already done so, you need to get yourself a book called ‘The Book of Martyrs’ by John Foxe and read it and weep! And don’t just weep, take up the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God and cut this Roman Catholic system and the devil which rules it to the heart!

I am not advocating that you hate the Roman Catholic, dearly beloved, but you have got to HATE THE SYSTEM! For it is the spirit of ANTICHRIST! You must be willing to fight it ‘tooth and nail’ to your last dying breath! All of Christ’s true brethren fought this evil system and some of them sealed their testimony with their blood! So it is no light matter for a supposed brother like Billy Graham to receive an honorary doctorate degree from a Roman Catholic College Belmont Abbey, and stand on the podium declaring, "The gospel that founded this college is the same gospel I preach today."

The Truth of God should never be sacrificed on the altar of unity. God is more concerned about preserving the truth of His Word in the church than so-called ‘peace’, ‘love’ and unity. As Owen rightly said, “For what peace in the Church without truth? All conformity to anything else is but the agreement of Herod and Pilate to destroy Christ and His Kingdom”. And again, “An agreement without truth is no peace, but a covenant with death, a league with hell, a conspiracy against the Kingdom of Christ and a stout rebellion against the God of Heaven”.

Love
Michael Jeshurun

Offline 4WD

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #22 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 05:48:48 »
Interesting post. In the letter from your friend, he says:

I am not advocating that you hate the Roman Catholic, dearly beloved, but you have got to HATE THE SYSTEM! For it is the spirit of ANTICHRIST! You must be willing to fight it ‘tooth and nail’ to your last dying breath!

What your friend Mike Jeshurun is telling me there in his letter is that I must HATE THE SYSTEM  of Reformed Theology.  For it is the spirit of ANTICHRIST!  Now I realize that is not his actual words, but that certainly is what he says to me.  For the message of the Roman Catholic system and the message of Billy Graham both, though much in error, are both closer to the truth soteriologically than is Reformed Theology.

Offline RB

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #23 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 06:39:16 »
Quote from: 4WD link=topic=98918.msg1055096182#msg1055096182 date=1520250528[size=10pt
What your friend Mike Jeshurun is telling me there in his letter is that I must HATE THE SYSTEM  of Reformed Theology.  For it is the spirit of ANTICHRIST!  Now I realize that is not his actual words, but that certainly is what he says to me.  For the message of the Roman Catholic system and the message of Billy Graham both, though much in error, are both closer to the truth soteriologically than is Reformed Theology.[/size]
I DO NOT even hold to Reformed Theology, even though they are much closer to the truth than you and RCC.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #24 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 06:53:06 »
I DO NOT even hold to Reformed Theology
RB, that may be true; however, you do hold to false doctrine of Total Depravity which is the death knell for Reformed Theology.  And as such, like the rest of TULIP, what you do hold to is false as well.  I truly do wish that would become apparent to you, but I doubt that it will.  Love you anyway my friend.  And for what it is worth, as much as I detest even the notion of Total Depravity,  I do not believe that adherence to Total Depravity constitutes an Unforgivable Sin.

Offline RB

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #25 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 06:58:51 »
RB, that may be true; however, you do hold to false doctrine of Total Depravity which is the death knell for Reformed Theology.  And as such, like the rest of TULIP, what you do hold to is false as well.  I truly do wish that would become apparent to you, but I doubt that it will. Love you anyway my friend.  And for what it is worth, as much as I detest even the notion of Total Depravity,  I do not believe that adherence to Total Depravity constitutes an Unforgivable Sin.
Same here-- I DO NOT believe that any who disagree with my understanding are not children of God, for knowledge is NOT a prerequisite to salvation from sin and condemnation.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #26 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 07:11:03 »
Same here-- I DO NOT believe that any who disagree with my understanding are not children of God, for knowledge is NOT a prerequisite to salvation from sin and condemnation.
Certainly perfect knowledge is not a prerequisite, but some knowledge definitely is.  One must have enough knowledge of the gospel to believe.  For it is that gospel which, as Paul says, is the power of God unto salvation.  You cannot believe what you have no knowledge of.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #27 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 08:38:20 »
It does not surprise me. I would have been surprised if you agree with me, and do not expect many to agree. Truth is not accepted by the majority, never has been and never will be, and even less as time goes on. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5.

With all due respect, it is only truth as your doctrinal understanding sees it, but it is not absolute truth.




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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #28 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 08:39:37 »
It's hard for me to see that "baptism" is the main complaint about him just from what has appeared in this thread.

In another thread, Jason_NC mentioned "sneaky" altar calls, but never explained.  Someone else referenced that here, but Jason has still not explained.

The most voluminous and venomous vitriol has been about the facts

1)  that BG apparently had an Arminian view of rebirth, and

2)  that BG did not have a John-the-Baptist lifestyle.


It's always fun to see oneself as part of the tiny righteous remnant, while everyone else is damned.


Yes, it does seem that many do get a joy from it. :(

Offline chosenone

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #29 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 11:44:45 »
I agree with you Chosenone,
that
I can suure you that he would stand a far better chance at leading people to Christ then we at Grace Centered would with all of the debates making new members wonder who could possibly be right.

I think the main issue some fine is like so many evangelists.

They teach Jesus is the way and the only way, but if they do not follow up in the very next sentence get thee to a baptism, then they are false teachers.

Yet even those on GC do not 100% agree with the the reason you get thee to a baptism.

True story: Within the past 5 months I have talked to a Baptist minister who said... "Yes, you must be baptised after receiving Jesus.... but it is not necessary to be saved."  (This one also tells his parishioners if they do not attend weekly service they are not saved. You have to go to church to be)

Then  also spoke with a Churches of Christ minister who espouses that you must be baptised after receiving Jesus as it is the completion of the salvation process.

So , as Rev Graham did not jump up and down about the baptism end.... he is a false teacher.

I truly believe that is what is behind the negative comments.
 

From what I remember when I was part of one of his crusades here in the UK along with my church, they made sure that everyone who went up was given information about the Christian faith and was also put in touch with a local church. So in no way were they left alone and isolated. Also most who went were taken by a Christian friend, so they would have had their help and support as well after wards.
This is where things such as baptism would be discussed and taught afterwards.
My belief in baptism is that we are told to do it but that its not a salvation issue. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #30 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 12:04:34 »
 

From what I remember when I was part of one of his crusades here in the UK along with my church, they made sure that everyone who went up was given information about the Christian faith and was also put in touch with a local church. So in no way were they left alone and isolated. Also most who went were taken by a Christian friend, so they would have had their help and support as well after wards.
This is where things such as baptism would be discussed and taught afterwards.
My belief in baptism is that we are told to do it but that its not a salvation issue.

Peter said that baptism is "for the forgiveness of sins and ......"

Is forgiveness of sins a salvation issue?  If not, why not?

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #31 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 12:07:41 »
Peter said that baptism is "for the forgiveness of sins and ......"

Is forgiveness of sins a salvation issue?  If not, why not?

Peter said that baptism is "in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

Offline Jaime

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #32 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 12:17:33 »
I certainly hope remission of sin is a salvation issue. If not, then I have to concede I know nothing about salvation.

If baptism in Christ’s name is not an appeal to God for a clean conscience, and that has nothing to do with salvation, then I know nothing about salvation.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 12:52:14 by Jaime »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #33 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 13:14:43 »
Peter said that baptism is "for the forgiveness of sins and ......"

Is forgiveness of sins a salvation issue?  If not, why not?

I was forgiven on the day I gave my life to Jesus. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Billy Graham and Pandora's Box
« Reply #34 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 13:34:39 »
So was the baptism in Christ’s name for remission of sin nullified somewhere? My supposition is that must be the case and I have missed it.

 

     
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