Author Topic: Creation scientists  (Read 35603 times)

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Online 4WD

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1295 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 10:23:18 »
Yes, of course people of different faiths, can develop different theories. As you have just done as one who discounts a global flood. Nevertheless, these layers obviously being laid down by water rather than the result of desert formations, is without question evidence in support of a global flood over and above deep time desert formation. You simply choose not to go their, because it is not conducive to your chosen faith.
"layers obviously being laid down by water"?? So how did those desert formation layers in the Grand Canyon get laid down by water?

Also, by people of different faiths, are you talking about non-SDAs?

Offline Amo

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1296 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 11:15:49 »
"layers obviously being laid down by water"?? So how did those desert formation layers in the Grand Canyon get laid down by water?

Also, by people of different faiths, are you talking about non-SDAs?

A perfect lefty progressive response. Just completely ignoring what the videos presented are stating, and restating your own position.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1297 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 11:37:04 »
I simply asked a question that you can't answer rationally.  And my response has nothing to do with lefty progressivism, something else that it might seem that you are thoroughly ignorant about.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1298 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 12:30:23 »
Did you watch the videos? The entire point of them, was that the layers were likely played down by or in watery conditions, not formed by desert conditions.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1298 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 12:30:23 »

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1299 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 16:28:57 »
 Yes I watched both of them.  But so what?  There is all manner of watery conditions all over the world that have absolutely nothing to do with any world-wide flood.  In fact I have no reason to doubt that the tracks the author was studying were formed under water just as he suggested.  But still, there is nothing in that to suggest that it was a flood, let alone a global flood.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1300 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 18:41:37 »
A perfect lefty progressive response. Just completely ignoring what the videos presented are stating, and restating your own position.
I simply asked a question that you can't answer rationally.  And my response has nothing to do with lefty progressivism, something else that it might seem that you are thoroughly ignorant about.
::headscratch:: ::noworries:: ::eatingpopcorn:

You used your own brain, rather than just agreeing automatically?  You Communist, you.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 18:55:22 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1301 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 18:54:30 »
It appears that you are of the mind that Noah's World Wide Flood was fake news? By world wide I mean that covered the entire earth from east to west and North Pole to South.

BUT... Are you also of the opinion that there never was a Noah's flood?

There is quite and extensive article in Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths)

And I copy it below .

They refer to the flood... any of the Noah type as strictly myths. But the listing of cultures that have some belief is extensive and this link shows they are from all corners of the earth.
Ummmm.... climatologists do show evidence of a world-wide flood.  About 13,000 years ago, immediately preceding the Younger Dryas period, trapped meltwater is believed to have broken through the arctic ice that was damming it in, and poured into the ocean, raising the sea-level by over 40-feet.

Granted, it isn't the violent mountain-topping upheaval you might have expected from Sunday School.  But people have a tendency to live on the coast, even today.  Think what would happen today if the sea-level rose 40-feet globally.  I think America's blue party would cease to exist. ::smile::

Jarrod

Offline Amo

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1302 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 20:36:29 »
Yes I watched both of them.  But so what?  There is all manner of watery conditions all over the world that have absolutely nothing to do with any world-wide flood.  In fact I have no reason to doubt that the tracks the author was studying were formed under water just as he suggested.  But still, there is nothing in that to suggest that it was a flood, let alone a global flood.

No, it is the bible that does not suggest this, but plainly states that there was a global flood. This man simply theorizes or concludes from observing the evidence, that the scriptures which you reject are true. Again, it is a matter of faith, not science which determines the observations and conclusions of both sides. Though evolutionary scientists will not admit of such. The videos presented a lot more than just footprints suggesting these layers were laid down in and or by water. Such obviously backing up the biblical account of a global flood, your chosen faith in that which contradicts scriptural testimony will just not allow you to go there. So you ignore it, or apply it in a manner which allows for your splintered faith. So be it.

Offline Amo

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1303 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 20:38:12 »
Ummmm.... climatologists do show evidence of a world-wide flood.  About 13,000 years ago, immediately preceding the Younger Dryas period, trapped meltwater is believed to have broken through the arctic ice that was damming it in, and poured into the ocean, raising the sea-level by over 40-feet.

Granted, it isn't the violent mountain-topping upheaval you might have expected from Sunday School.  But people have a tendency to live on the coast, even today.  Think what would happen today if the sea-level rose 40-feet globally.  I think America's blue party would cease to exist. ::smile::

Jarrod

It is not from Sunday school. It is from the holy scriptures. Unlike the theories you are referring to.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1304 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 05:05:49 »
No, it is the bible that does not suggest this, but plainly states that there was a global flood.
No, the Bible does not clearly state there was a global flood; again the idea of a global flood rather than a regional, though very extensive, flood is only from the translation/interpretation of the Hebrew word "erets", the definition of which, from Strong's, can be "country, earth, field, ground, land".  And even here, the notion that the Hebrew word "erets" is ever used in the sense of a globe or planet is a stretch because that concept was not the prevailing view of the universe in the ancient world.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1305 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 05:21:46 »
Such obviously backing up the biblical account of a global flood, your chosen faith in that which contradicts scriptural testimony will just not allow you to go there. So you ignore it, or apply it in a manner which allows for your splintered faith. So be it.
Somehow, that an SDA speaks of anyone else's faith as a splintered faith is more than a little hypocritical and offensive.

Offline Rella

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1306 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 07:16:05 »
No, the Bible does not clearly state there was a global flood; again the idea of a global flood rather than a regional, though very extensive, flood is only from the translation/interpretation of the Hebrew word "erets", the definition of which, from Strong's, can be "country, earth, field, ground, land".  And even here, the notion that the Hebrew word "erets" is ever used in the sense of a globe or planet is a stretch because that concept was not the prevailing view of the universe in the ancient world.

My first question is...Why did God lie to whomever wrote Genesis?

Whoever wrote Genesis clearly stated.. (again using the fallible KJV as there is one here who will read nothing but.)

Gen 6 Is labeled as fake news by the accounts of many reading this...

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

WHO LIED? GOD OR THE SCRIBE?

And don't you dare go to the fable or parable idea because these verses are clearly stated with no shadow of a doubt.

Now about this global flood.

IT MOST CERTAINLY IS BIBLICALLY SUGGESTED......

Gen 6 :7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

YOU SAY... this reference to earth is regional. I say poppycock. First.... you cannot prove suce a thing, expecially in light that a flood account circled the entire globe.

But Look back at Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Were the waters created on the earth only regional?  Prove it.

How many whales do you think were in the rivers  Pison:   Gihon: Hiddekel: or Euphrates?  and where do you suppose these whale were found once God gave Adam the boot out of Eden?  That's right... we cannot know.

But the fact is that God said  "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air"  and he told Noah "The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth"

Regional "great flood" has no logical connotations because IF it was strictly regional then at minimum the plant life would have existed beyond the waters.... as well as whatever marine life and some birds of the air that would have been migratory.

BUT GOD SAID HE WOULD DESTROY IT ALL........ I will destroy them with the earth

Offline Alan

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1307 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 07:37:30 »
Except He didn't destroy all life on the earth. Countless cultures have historical records of before and after their flood accounts, while other cultures have historical records that exceed far past the biblical flood account with no gaps in their history, and no record of a flood ever occurring.

Offline Rella

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1308 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 08:06:26 »
Except He didn't destroy all life on the earth. Countless cultures have historical records of before and after their flood accounts, while other cultures have historical records that exceed far past the biblical flood account with no gaps in their history, and no record of a flood ever occurring.


Then God lied.

Offline Alan

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1309 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 10:35:16 »

Then God lied.


When did God lie?

Offline Rella

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1310 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 11:09:13 »

When did God lie?

He told us...

Gen 6 :7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

If all was not destroyed, save Noah, whose account we have and why, and the other references you make say that all was not destroyed.... God did not tell the truth.

UNLESS.. He changed His mind????

Offline Alan

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1311 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 12:26:10 »
I dunno, I put little stalk in early Genesis accounts as being literal in any sense. The entire flood account appears to be a borrowed tale from writings that predated Genesis by hundreds of years, same story passed down through the generations.

Offline Rella

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1312 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 13:05:12 »
I dunno, I put little stalk in early Genesis accounts as being literal in any sense. The entire flood account appears to be a borrowed tale from writings that predated Genesis by hundreds of years, same story passed down through the generations.

Could be... IDK myself.

But that is another point....

I was told that the first five books were inspired by God for Moses to write.

If the Genesis accounts are iffy... then what about the inspiration?

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1313 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 13:18:05 »
I dunno, I put little stalk in early Genesis accounts as being literal in any sense. The entire flood account appears to be a borrowed tale from writings that predated Genesis by hundreds of years, same story passed down through the generations.

Since Jesus referenced early Genesis accounts, I would be careful.

John 5:45–47
45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Matthew 24:37-39
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1314 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 13:23:20 »
I don't think Alan was suggesting that any of the Genesis account was not true; rather, it was not necessarily to be taken as literal. Not literal does not mean not true.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1315 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 13:31:58 »
I don't think Alan was suggesting that any of the Genesis account was not true; rather, it was not necessarily to be taken as literal. Not literal does not mean not true.

The words of Jesus seem to imply some sort of literalness.  Jesus more than once references Genesis in the Gospels.  Positing the dates might not be exactly 6,000 years is one thing, but "a borrowed tale from writings that predated Genesis?" 

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1316 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 13:40:13 »
Perhaps not the best way of putting it.  I have never said, nor suggested, that the flood didn't happen, that it wasn't real; I have only argued against a global extent and I have argued that the Bible doesn't require it to be so.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1317 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 15:45:33 »
He told us...

Gen 6 :7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

If all was not destroyed, save Noah, whose account we have and why, and the other references you make say that all was not destroyed.... God did not tell the truth.

UNLESS.. He changed His mind????
Genesis is a collection of historical and mythicological documents that come from several different cultures.  While many of them are not literal, none of them are meant to be mis-leading; they are not lies.  But whoever edited them together in such a way as to portray them as a single chronological record... that guy screwed up.

Anyhow, the stories of Noah and his sons come from the civilization of Urartu.  You can read the exact same story in the Matsya Purana, which is one of the sacred texts of the Hindus of India and Sri Lanka.  This is because the descendants of Urartu migrated to the Indian subcontinent and brought their myths with them.

Honestly, Genesis is one of the hardest books in the Bible.

Jarrod

Offline Rella

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1318 on: Tue Sep 27, 2022 - 09:56:05 »
Genesis is a collection of historical and mythicological documents that come from several different cultures.  While many of them are not literal, none of them are meant to be mis-leading; they are not lies.  But whoever edited them together in such a way as to portray them as a single chronological record... that guy screwed up.

Anyhow, the stories of Noah and his sons come from the civilization of Urartu.  You can read the exact same story in the Matsya Purana, which is one of the sacred texts of the Hindus of India and Sri Lanka.  This is because the descendants of Urartu migrated to the Indian subcontinent and brought their myths with them.

Honestly, Genesis is one of the hardest books in the Bible.


Jarrod

Not so hard if you truly study and take the time to see what is really said. I have read and re-read Genesis 1,2, and 3... to the point that I have nearly memorized them. A self-study of sorts and I do not find confusion so much as I find lack of completeness. If Moses wrote 1 and 2 he did no favors posting 1 as it is and then finally getting around to naming Adam... If his true intention was to claim Adam was truly the first man. But that is a subject for another time... possibly another life ::lookaround:: ... maybe... I have such differing thoughts on "creation" and it is a subject that is near and dear to my heart....

Question.

Are you of the opinion that Moses himself wrote down the things we read of in creation starting with Genesis 1...or are you of the opinion that someone other then Moses wrote things starting at Gen 1 and somewhere along the way Moses' name got attached?

... I AM NOT SAYING BY INSPIRATION, NECESSARILY...

Using your analogy  Genesis is a collection of historical and mythicological documents that come from several different cultures.  While many of them are not literal, none of them are meant to be mis-leading; they are not lies.  But whoever edited them together in such a way as to portray them as a single chronological record... that guy screwed up.

In other words... if I understand what you believe ... the Genesis creation end of things came from different cultures.

WHY do you say that?

Consider this possibility... and I am going to refer to the author as Moses for simplicity sake.

What if the ideas that came to Moses were those passed down through the ranks... NOT different cultures but direct decendent to Moses. Can you prove that Moses' knowledge of the origins of the did not  pass to him through a process of oral history from Adam to Moses.

No, it is not impossible because back in the day due to the extremely long lifespans it would not have taken but a a few generations to pass this knowledge over thousands of years.

Consider... And I hope I dont miss anyone... I think there are 10 generations from Adam to Noah, including Adam himself.

Adam... Seth ... Enos ... Cainian... Mehalaleel... Jared... Enoch... Methuselah... Lamech... Noah ( Misspelling ignore cause I am not going to go look up to see where I goofed, and spell check is not good here)( arrgh... too much thinking for this early in the AM  rofl)

Anyway.. I would think Adam had first-hand knowledge of much of Creation  by experience...and the rest could have been communicated to Him by God... possibly as Adam may have not cared.... but assume this had been the case, then it’s believable that the story was repeated and passed down through these few generations, from him to Noah.

Enter the rains.... First really bad monsoon season... ::snowing:: ... then once the flood waters settled... and the 8 disembarked the ark to re-settle the world. Noah kept the story telling right down the line and eventually made it to Moses.

BUT I PREFER WHAT JOSEPHUS SAID

You remember him? One of the great historians closer to the times we discuss and less likely to embellish.

Josephus definitely states it was Moses who wrote the Genesis accounts.

Josephus further states in his discourse on the Flood (which he records as global with ‘no place’ uncovered11)

https://creation.com/josephus-says-genesis-means-what-it-says

Anyway...Josephus claimed that Methuselah was an ancient historian of his day who recorded the history of the world as told by Adam.  And according to Josephus they were recorded on stone obelisks.

Where this tends to get iffy... he said these obelisks were carried by Noah onto the ark and after the ark came to rest Noah deposited the stone tablets in Arabia. ( I would have thought the ark would have sunk under the weight.).

Although not the same...  in my mind Arabia and India and Sri Lanka and even  Mt Ararate are not so far away from each other when you look at all that water that connects them by sea....So Your account could be right and so could Josephus, though I tend to
side with him as I jus refuse to subscribe to the word myth regarding anything of our God. Mt Ararat may well be a stretch as no one has found anything yet... just an xray showing what might be an ark.

And also Josephus on the Tower of Babel...The Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus, in his Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94 CE), recounted history as found in the Hebrew Bible and mentioned the Tower of Babel. He wrote that it was Nimrod who had the tower built and that Nimrod was a tyrant who tried to turn the people away from God.

OK I am getting off track....

Anyway, these are just a couple of thought for consideration .

I have to run so I will continue into the historians ( ancient) to see what they say.... UGH. Miserable reading.  ::tippinghat:: later[/size]

Offline DaveW

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1319 on: Tue Sep 27, 2022 - 13:25:24 »
Since Jesus referenced early Genesis accounts, I would be careful.

John 5:45–47
45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Matthew 24:37-39
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
+1

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1320 on: Wed Sep 28, 2022 - 04:35:07 »
Not so hard if you truly study and take the time to see what is really said. I have read and re-read Genesis 1,2, and 3... to the point that I have nearly memorized them. A self-study of sorts and I do not find confusion so much as I find lack of completeness. If Moses wrote 1 and 2 he did no favors posting 1 as it is and then finally getting around to naming Adam... If his true intention was to claim Adam was truly the first man. But that is a subject for another time... possibly another life ::lookaround:: ... maybe... I have such differing thoughts on "creation" and it is a subject that is near and dear to my heart....
I have studied no book so much as Genesis.  I literally have years worth of study time in it.  I've got those first few chapters "nearly memorized" in 3 languages now.  This did not happen because this book is easy to understand.

Question.

Are you of the opinion that Moses himself wrote down the things we read of in creation starting with Genesis 1...or are you of the opinion that someone other then Moses wrote things starting at Gen 1 and somewhere along the way Moses' name got attached?
Genesis is an anthology, a collection of books.  I do not know who all the authors are, but Moses is certainly one of the authors, and was perhaps the copyist for the rest of them.

Quote from: me
Genesis is a collection of historical and mythicological documents that come from several different cultures.  While many of them are not literal, none of them are meant to be mis-leading; they are not lies.  But whoever edited them together in such a way as to portray them as a single chronological record... that guy screwed up.
In other words... if I understand what you believe ... the Genesis creation end of things came from different cultures.

WHY do you say that?
Internal evidence within the book. 

Genesis divides itself into sections, which are clearly marked out by colophon statements (the Toledoths):
  • “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.” (Genesis 2:4a)
  • “This is the book of the generations of Adam.” (Genesis 5:1)
  • “These are the generations of Noah.” (Genesis 6:9)
  • “Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.” (Genesis 10:1a)
  • “These are the generations of Shem.” (Genesis 11:10a)
  • “Now these are the generations of Terah.” (Genesis 11:27a)
  • “And these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham’s son.” (Genesis 25:19a)
  • ‘This is the account of Abraham’s son Ishmael.” (Genesis 25:12a, see below)
  • “This is the account of Esau (that is, Edom).” (Genesis 36:1, see below)
  • “These are the generations of Jacob.” (Genesis 37:2)

Critical analysis of each section shows that they aren't all written by the same person.  There are differences in writing style and word choice.  The most famous is the use of different words for God (Elohim in some places, Yahweh in others, both in a few).  There are datable events that limit when sections can be written (for instance, the destruction of Sodom, the burning of the city of Hazor).  In some places technologies are mentioned that put time constraints on when something was written, because it wasn't invented until a certain date (e.g. the use of camels in Genesis, the use of iron tools that were not yet invented in the earlier parts of the Bronze Age).

It turns out that we can trace the origins of many of the sections:

For instance, the account of Abraham's migration to Canaan helpfully tells us that his family originated in the area around Urfa and Haran.

For instance, the account of the burial of Sarah traces itself back to Canaan in the northernmost territories controlled by the Hittites and Amorites.

For instance, the account of Jacob's marriage to Rebekah helpfully tells us that she was a Syrian from Padan-Aram, and the generations of Jacob tells us that he traveled back to the same place to find a wife.

For instance, the generations of Esau trace themselves to a wholly different location, in Moab, Ammon, and points southward along the east coast of the Dead Sea (Edom).

For instance, Exodus 18 helpfully tells us that Moses received much of his instruction and information from the High Priest of Midian, including the instructions for the establishment of the judicial hierarchy that is put in place afterwards.  The stations of the Exodus are traced as well, and it gives us detailed information about dealings with the Edomites, Kenites, Moabites, and Midianites.

For instance, Deuteronomy helpfully places itself in the valley east of Jordan, near Mt Gerizim and Mt Ebal, at the borders of Moab.

Having this internal evidence, there is also external evidence to compare it to:

Looking to the areas of Urfa and Haran, archaeology shows us that the peoples in the area were Hurrians/Mittani and descendants of the ancient kingdom of Urartu.  When we look at the writings those people passed down, we find that Urartu has the story of Noah and his three sons, basically intact and nearly identical to the one in Genesis.

Looking to Syria and Padan-Aram, we find a creation myth that closely matches the account of creation in the book of Job.

From Lebanon and Canaan, we have historical records of their battles and disputes with the Amorites and Egyptians to compare to Biblical events in the books of Joshua and Judges.

From Edom, we have archaeological evidence for the site of copper mines and large-scale bronze smelting operations, as recorded in Exodus, alongside a whole freaking tabernacle that matches the description of the one in Exodus.

That's just the well-established stuff.  When you start comparing the history of Edom to the Bible, some of it starts looking real familiar.  Edom is grammatically identical to Adam, and the first city of Edom is Admah.  The Edomites were evicted from Admah, though, and moved south.  The Edomites had 12 chiefs that are called Dukes, including one named Kenaz, whose descendants are the Kenites, and that name is grammatically equal to Cain.  Somehow, the Kenites end up moving out of Edom and living in Midian, and the Negev.  Moses father-in-law is variously called a Midianite and a Kenite, and a group of Kenites are recorded in the Bible as joining Israel in their invasion of the Promised Land and settling in the south.

Consider this possibility... and I am going to refer to the author as Moses for simplicity sake.

What if the ideas that came to Moses were those passed down through the ranks... NOT different cultures but direct decendent to Moses. Can you prove that Moses' knowledge of the origins of the did not pass to him through a process of oral history from Adam to Moses.
I think it can be demonstrated that what is written in Genesis was passed down through two different traditions.  There is a northern tradition, that has its origins in Syria, Hatti, Mittani, and Urartu.  There is a southern tradition, that comes to Moses explicitly from Jethro the Kenite/Midianite, and archaeology shows that comes from Edom, and Moab.

No, it is not impossible because back in the day due to the extremely long lifespans it would not have taken but a a few generations to pass this knowledge over thousands of years.

Consider... And I hope I dont miss anyone... I think there are 10 generations from Adam to Noah, including Adam himself.

Adam... Seth ... Enos ... Cainian... Mehalaleel... Jared... Enoch... Methuselah... Lamech... Noah ( Misspelling ignore cause I am not going to go look up to see where I goofed, and spell check is not good here)( arrgh... too much thinking for this early in the AM  rofl)

Anyway.. I would think Adam had first-hand knowledge of much of Creation by experience...and the rest could have been communicated to Him by God... possibly as Adam may have not cared.... but assume this had been the case, then it’s believable that the story was repeated and passed down through these few generations, from him to Noah.

Enter the rains.... First really bad monsoon season... ::snowing:: ... then once the flood waters settled... and the 8 disembarked the ark to re-settle the world. Noah kept the story telling right down the line and eventually made it to Moses.
Well, that's fanciful.

I believe the story of Adam and Eve is the creation myth of the Edomites, and not a historical account.  (Here I should like to digress on the point that myths are NOT fairy tales.  They have a defined cultural purpose... but this post is already waaaaay too long.)

The story of Noah and the Flood does not come from the same place; it has a different origin.

The two stories have been artificially shoe-horned together with a clumsy genealogy full of "names" that aren't names at all.  If they were real names, the Israelites would have been naming people after them, which they did not do.  Rather, the "names" tell a story of the establishment of civilization... Seth: to set up, Enos: to begin building, Qeynan: to use tools, MeHalal'El: to praise God, Jared: to go down, Enoch: to finish building, MethuSelah: to die in peace, Lamech: to go into the forge/pot, Noah: rest.


BUT I PREFER WHAT JOSEPHUS SAID

You remember him? One of the great historians closer to the times we discuss and less likely to embellish.

Josephus definitely states it was Moses who wrote the Genesis accounts.

Josephus further states in his discourse on the Flood (which he records as global with ‘no place’ uncovered11)

https://creation.com/josephus-says-genesis-means-what-it-says

Anyway...Josephus claimed that Methuselah was an ancient historian of his day who recorded the history of the world as told by Adam.  And according to Josephus they were recorded on stone obelisks.

Where this tends to get iffy... he said these obelisks were carried by Noah onto the ark and after the ark came to rest Noah deposited the stone tablets in Arabia. ( I would have thought the ark would have sunk under the weight.).

Although not the same...  in my mind Arabia and India and Sri Lanka and even  Mt Ararate are not so far away from each other when you look at all that water that connects them by sea....So Your account could be right and so could Josephus, though I tend to
side with him as I jus refuse to subscribe to the word myth regarding anything of our God. Mt Ararat may well be a stretch as no one has found anything yet... just an xray showing what might be an ark.

And also Josephus on the Tower of Babel...The Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus, in his Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94 CE), recounted history as found in the Hebrew Bible and mentioned the Tower of Babel. He wrote that it was Nimrod who had the tower built and that Nimrod was a tyrant who tried to turn the people away from God.

OK I am getting off track....

Anyway, these are just a couple of thought for consideration .

I have to run so I will continue into the historians ( ancient) to see what they say.... UGH. Miserable reading.  ::tippinghat:: later[/size]
Yeah, well... Josephus copied his homework from Philo of Alexandria, who also went so far as to say that Moses and God sat on the mountain-top and God dictated every word of the Pentateuch to him, verbatim.  Also, Josephus was not what you would call credulous of all of Jewish history.  He recited it for a Roman audience, and was somewhat critical of it.

As for the Tower of Babel, it still exists as a mound in present-day Iraq.  You can find it on Google Earth if you look for it.  Nimrod is an actual historical figure.  There are tons of records of people named after him, and their transactions in ancient Mesopotamia.  Speculatively, he is also the inspiration for the character Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh, as well as some of the feats recorded there.

Jarrod

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1321 on: Wed Sep 28, 2022 - 19:51:28 »
Jarrod,

I thank you for taking your time to explain all that.

It will take me several readings to truly comprehend what you have said in comparison to
my singular language upbringing and what the church taught before I took over my own
American English study.

I just have one final question on one thing you said.

IF as you said ..."I believe the story of Adam and Eve is the creation myth of the Edomites, and not a historical account.  (Here I should like to digress on the point that myths are NOT fairy tales.  They have a defined cultural purpose... but this post is already waaaaay too long.)"

Without a long explanation can you tell me if you feel all of the creation points are tied to a myth  or is it just the Adam and Eve/ Garden of Eden end? 

I only ask because I am certain without reservation that Adam was not the first man God made.... ::tippinghat::



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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1322 on: Thu Sep 29, 2022 - 20:23:36 »
I just have one final question on one thing you said.

Without a long explanation can you tell me if you feel all of the creation points are tied to a myth or is it just the Adam and Eve/ Garden of Eden end?
Mostly it's just Adam and Eve.  When the Jews translated Genesis into Greek, they translated 'Eve' with the name of a Greek goddess.  This is not a literal person.

Some of the stories are hard to figure. 

Like, Cain seems to be a literal person that we can find in history, and the conflict between farmers and herders is a very real issue for that place and time in history, BUT the story itself engages in word-making and contains a moral, which are hallmarks of a myth.

On the other hand, it's tempting to compare the story of Noah to flood myths in other cultures.  But that story doesn't do any word-making, contains no moral lesson, and appears to be a corollary to the section that follows, which is a very literal listing of people groups and where they settled.  It's written as literal history, even though the root of the story looks a lot like myths from the neighboring countries.

Jarrod

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1323 on: Sat Oct 01, 2022 - 08:57:48 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drm0KD0i-js

More Creationist views on the Coconino Sandstone.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1324 on: Sat Oct 01, 2022 - 08:59:41 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvmwZDa6mVE

Some thoughts concerning the negative effects of the theory of evolution upon peoples and societies.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1325 on: Sat Oct 01, 2022 - 11:44:52 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drm0KD0i-js

More Creationist views on the Coconino Sandstone.

No, that is not a creationist view on the Coconino Sandstone; that is a young earth creationist view on the Coconino Sandstone. If you are going to spread that stuff, at least designate it appropriately.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1326 on: Sat Oct 01, 2022 - 12:02:21 »
No, that is not a creationist view on the Coconino Sandstone; that is a young earth creationist view on the Coconino Sandstone. If you are going to spread that stuff, at least designate it appropriately.

I am not subject to titles or designations created by various groups in support or defiance of their pet theories or dominant concerns. There are no young or old earth creationists in scripture, just those who believe scriptural testimony, and those who do not.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1327 on: Sat Oct 01, 2022 - 14:24:35 »
I am not subject to titles or designations created by various groups in support or defiance of their pet theories or dominant concerns. There are no young or old earth creationists in scripture, just those who believe scriptural testimony, and those who do not.
So what makes you think the Coconino Sandstone guy is a creationist?  There certainly is nothing in the scriptures about the Coconino sandstone.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1328 on: Sun Oct 02, 2022 - 11:16:10 »
So what makes you think the Coconino Sandstone guy is a creationist?  There certainly is nothing in the scriptures about the Coconino sandstone.

The video is put out by IS GENESIS HISTORY, a creationist organization. Seems very likely he is a creationist as well. I'll look into it though, for verification.

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Re: Creation scientists
« Reply #1329 on: Sun Oct 02, 2022 - 11:48:11 »
https://www.cedarville.edu/academic-schools-and-departments/science-and-mathematics/faculty-staff/whitmore-john

JOHN WHITMORE, PH.D.

BIOGRAPHY


Before coming to Cedarville University in 1991, Dr. John Whitmore taught high school science and math and spent a summer working for the United States Geological Survey. Dr. Whitmore serves on the board of the Creation Geology Society and is a member of the Creation Research Society and the Geological Society of America (GSA). His publications include many GSA abstracts, journal articles, book chapters, popular articles, and an adventure book titled The Great Alaskan Dinosaur Adventure. He is co-author of The Heavens and the Earth, a college-level earth science textbook. He speaks internationally on the topics of Creation, geology, and Noah’s Flood and has led many trips in the Grand Canyon with Answers in Genesis and Canyon Ministries. In 2018, he was editor of the Proceedings of the Eighth International Conference on Creationism.

EDUCATION AND CREDENTIALS

Ph.D. in Biology with Paleontology emphasis, Loma Linda University
M.S. in Geology, Institute for Creation Research
B.S. in Geology, Kent State University

SCHOLARLY WORKS

Whitmore, J.H. 2006. The Green River Formation: A large post-Flood lake system: Journal of Creation 20(1):55-63.

Whitmore, J.H. 2019. Lithostratigraphic Correlation of the Coconino Sandstone and a Global Survey of Permian "Eolian" Sandstones: Implications for Flood Geology. Answers Research Journal 12:275-328.

Whitmore, J.H., and P.A. Garner. 2008. Using suites of criteria to recognize pre-Flood, Flood, and post-Flood strata in the rock record with application to Wyoming (USA). In Proceedings of the Sixth International Conference on Creationism, ed. A.A. Snelling, pp. 425-448. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania: Creation Science Fellowship, and Dallas, Texas: Institute for Creation Research.

Whitmore, J.H., and P.A. Garner. 2018. The Coconino Sandstone (Permian, Arizona, USA): Implications for the origin of ancient cross-bedded sandstones. In Proceedings of the Eighth International Conference on Creationism, ed. J.H. Whitmore, pp. 581–627. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania: Creation Science Fellowship.

Whitmore, J.H., and R. Strom. 2010. Sand injectites at the base of the Coconino Sandstone, Grand Canyon, Arizona. Sedimentary Geology 230:46-59.

View a listing of scholarly works in the Cedarville University Digital Commons »

https://works.bepress.com/john_whitmore/


 

     
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