Author Topic: Giants  (Read 13932 times)

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Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Giants
« Reply #385 on: Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 10:10:16 »
Science in the Dark Ages?  ::headscratch::

They're called the Dark Ages because they lack science.  The Dark Ages are what happens when the church decides it knows everything and suppresses attempts to discover anything new.

I never mentioned "science in the dark ages."  I mentioned how those a few hundred years might look at what we believe now as though we were in the dark ages.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Giants
« Reply #386 on: Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 11:43:12 »
You have no idea what time or anything else does in what we call a black hole....
We have pretty good idea about time just outside of a black hole near the event horizon. Measuring time from the outside it appears to pass slower and slower for any item as it approaches the black hole.

https://askanastronomer.org/bhc/2016/01/19/time-inside-black-hole/

If a clock could survive in a black hole, would time stand still inside the black hole? What would space-time be like?
The answer is kind of boring since we do not have physics to describe the inside of black holes, the official answer is “we don’t know”. We can speculate given what happens right at the edge of the black hole though.

The first thing to state is: who (i.e., which observer) is asking? If the person asking is standing outside the black hole looking at a clock falling towards the event horizon, then the clock appears to move slower as it approaches the black hole… and actually, it would never fall inside the black hole because time gets infinitely slow at the event horizon. If the person asking is attached to the clock, then everything looks normal, time runs normally. Actually, general relativity says that the event horizon can be crossed and time would keep running exactly in the same way.
General relativity also says that the density of the black hole is infinite because its volume is formally zero – it is a singularity. For a static black hole, the singularity is a point, while for a rotating black hole, it is a ring, but still with zero volume. The thing is, quantum physics does not allow such precise numbers, so there must be something else actually happening there, but we still don’t have the physics to describe such a state.

Dr. Eva Noyola

UT Austin
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 11:45:54 by 4WD »

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Re: Giants
« Reply #387 on: Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 12:28:38 »
We have pretty good idea about time just outside of a black hole near the event horizon. Measuring time from the outside it appears to pass slower and slower for any item as it approaches the black hole.

https://askanastronomer.org/bhc/2016/01/19/time-inside-black-hole/

If a clock could survive in a black hole, would time stand still inside the black hole? What would space-time be like?
The answer is kind of boring since we do not have physics to describe the inside of black holes, the official answer is “we don’t know”. We can speculate given what happens right at the edge of the black hole though.

The first thing to state is: who (i.e., which observer) is asking? If the person asking is standing outside the black hole looking at a clock falling towards the event horizon, then the clock appears to move slower as it approaches the black hole… and actually, it would never fall inside the black hole because time gets infinitely slow at the event horizon. If the person asking is attached to the clock, then everything looks normal, time runs normally. Actually, general relativity says that the event horizon can be crossed and time would keep running exactly in the same way.
General relativity also says that the density of the black hole is infinite because its volume is formally zero – it is a singularity. For a static black hole, the singularity is a point, while for a rotating black hole, it is a ring, but still with zero volume. The thing is, quantum physics does not allow such precise numbers, so there must be something else actually happening there, but we still don’t have the physics to describe such a state.

Dr. Eva Noyola

UT Austin


I'll just stick to the frank admission above as in "we don't know". "Scientists" have and do continue to be wrong about things right here in front of their faces, making corrections time and again, let alone concerting such as black  holes far beyond our present reach.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Giants
« Reply #388 on: Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 13:31:22 »
"Scientists" have and do continue to be wrong about things right here in front of their faces...
....as do so many self-proclaiming authorities (like you} about things in God's word.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #388 on: Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 13:31:22 »

Offline Alan

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Re: Giants
« Reply #389 on: Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 20:20:28 »
I'll just stick to the frank admission above as in "we don't know". "Scientists" have and do continue to be wrong about things right here in front of their faces, making corrections time and again, let alone concerting such as black  holes far beyond our present reach.


You're not entirely wrong. Science is often a work in progress, but by no means is it on the side of error that would result in YEC claims being correct.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #390 on: Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 07:01:18 »

 but by no means is it on the side of error that would result in YEC claims being correct.

While I tend to agree with you somewhat... the result... from science.... would not necessarily result in YEC claims being wrong.

YEC creation people generally live their lives in faith and belief that all that is needed for their point of view is the Holy Bible.

Science usually cannot provide concrete evidence that YEC is wrong because they live their lives in speculation.

NO... I do not think I am wrong.

I am one of the inbetweens. Knowing the Holy Words are accurate as far as the translators can be believed, but seeing things the translators translated as indicating they either missed something correctly either by misunderstanding Divine Inspiration or because Divine Inspiration either felt it not necessary to be so specific ( as to confuse the people or it not being needed for the message and teachings within the 4 courners of the Holy Bible.)

I personally have not question that there were giants on the earth at some point (That is biblical) And very large animals.

What I have trouble with is why there are scant few skeletal remain from the animals and hardly any for the people.

I have difficulty with them dating the age of the earth and then they tell us that the earth is younger then the Universe.

All the while expounding on their "big bang" stuff.

Could earth be younger.  Certainly... but then that gets closer to my beliefs for the reason why ::tippinghat::

Well... I have said enough

Just know that science is obviously more wrong then right. When they spout off with their ideas of everything but cannot even come up with medial helps for things like Covid and such... either to wipe it out or to actually immunize people against they just are guessing

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Re: Giants
« Reply #391 on: Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 18:01:21 »
Science has no interest in what YEC pseudo-science says, and yes, with very little effort most of the bizarre claims of YEC can be easily dismissed.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #392 on: Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 21:11:30 »
YEC creation people generally live their lives in faith and belief that all that is needed for their point of view is the Holy Bible.
It took you only 2 sentences to identify their error.  You are far ahead of Amo and the answers-in-Genesis crowd.

Science usually cannot provide concrete evidence that YEC is wrong because they live their lives in speculation.
No.  Don't buy into the spin put out by the YEC crowd.  What is labeled a theory in science is not speculative, but something well-established logically and well-tested.  It is the second-highest level of certitude that science awards.  Science is not about speculation; it is about testing to prove/disprove.

I personally have not question that there were giants on the earth at some point (That is biblical) And very large animals.

What I have trouble with is why there are scant few skeletal remain from the animals and hardly any for the people.
I think science and the Bible agree on very large animals.  As for giants, that is probably a question of the frame-of-reference.  People have been getting taller throughout history due to improving nutrition.  A giant 3000 years ago may have been someone six and a half feet tall.

Just know that science is obviously more wrong then right. When they spout off with their ideas of everything but cannot even come up with medial helps for things like Covid and such... either to wipe it out or to actually immunize people against they just are guessing.
That's not inability; it's malevolence.  The pharmaceutical industry engineered and propagated a home-made virus, just so that they could sell a therapeutic medicine while advertising it as a vaccine.  That's a high degree of ability, just used for bad instead of good.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #393 on: Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 15:18:46 »
It took you only 2 sentences to identify their error.  You are far ahead of Amo and the answers-in-Genesis crowd.

No.  Don't buy into the spin put out by the YEC crowd.  What is labeled a theory in science is not speculative, but something well-established logically and well-tested.  It is the second-highest level of certitude that science awards.  Science is not about speculation; it is about testing to prove/disprove
.

By what are you claiming well tested of things that have no true time reference that we can count on from the Holy Scriptures
and Genesis 2. Yes I skipped Genesis 1 completely and I start my biblical time line with Adam being formed of God.


Are you basing things on things like... carbon dating, for simplicity... because that  has gone from being the end all that is all to other things they claim are better or it is not viable.  ( no... I dont want to get into that cause I admittedly am not up to speed with things like dating that I was 20 years ago)

Quote
I think science and the Bible agree on very large animals.  As for giants, that is probably a question of the frame-of-reference.  People have been getting taller throughout history due to improving nutrition.  A giant 3000 years ago may have been someone six and a half feet tall.

Question. Do you think the Holy Bible, when inspired,... for I am not convinced every word was... and certainly not the sentence and grammar construction...  but when it truly was inspired was actually the words or thoughts from God to the scribes, or do you think a thought came to their minds ( much like a vision or dream) and they interpreted what they felt to be correct?

We are told

Deuteronomy 1:28
28 Where can we go? Our brothers have made our hearts melt in fear. They say, ‘The people are stronger and taller than we are; the cities are large, with walls up to the sky. We even saw the Anakites there.’ ”

Deuteronomy 3:11
11 (Og king of Bashan was the last of the Rephaites. His bed was decorated with iron and was more than nine cubits long and four cubits wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)

That's not inability; it's malevolence.  The pharmaceutical industry engineered and propagated a home-made virus, just so that they could sell a therapeutic medicine while advertising it as a vaccine.  That's a high degree of ability, just used for bad instead of good.

Isaiah 40:22
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Numbers 13:33
33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

Deuteronomy 2:10-12
10 (The Emites used to live there—a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites.

So you feel these larger people are just taller but not giants?

Consider this and I shall stop.[/size]

When God talked to Moses

21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

I envision a very large singular hand that could shield Moses..... Far larger then a normal man.

God may be a giant Himself. Also and this will bring the comments I know but the man and woman in Genesis 1 may have been made larger then Adam, for a different purpose.

« Last Edit: Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 16:32:10 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Giants
« Reply #394 on: Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 16:47:50 »
By what are you claiming well tested of things that have no true time reference that we can count on from the Holy Scriptures
and Genesis 2. Yes I skipped Genesis 1 completely and I start my biblical time line with Adam being formed of God.


Are you basing things on things like... carbon dating, for simplicity... because that  has gone from being the end all that is all to other things they claim are better or it is not viable.  ( no... I dont want to get into that cause I admittedly am not up to speed with things like dating that I was 20 years ago)
I don't want to get into that either.  I'm not a scientist.

But even I know, a scientific theory isn't some schmuck's guess that he scribbled on the bathroom stall (i.e. on the Internet).  It's a sourced scholarly article with citations that is peer-reviewed before being published.

Question. Do you think the Holy Bible, when inspired,... for I am not convinced every word was... and certainly not the sentence and grammar construction...  but when it truly was inspired was actually the words or thoughts from God to the scribes, or do you think a thought came to their minds ( much like a vision or dream) and they interpreted what they felt to be correct?
Some of both.  I think the Bible does a fair job of telling us who is speaking.  When God is speaking, the text introduces it as God speaking.  Other times, it introduces it as "the Word of the Lord by the prophet Daniel (or whoever)."  And other times, it does neither and just reads as history, which is to say it isn't inspired.

We are told

Deuteronomy 1:28
28 Where can we go? Our brothers have made our hearts melt in fear. They say, ‘The people are stronger and taller than we are; the cities are large, with walls up to the sky. We even saw the Anakites there.’ ”

Deuteronomy 3:11
11 (Og king of Bashan was the last of the Rephaites. His bed was decorated with iron and was more than nine cubits long and four cubits wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)
Yes.  But those "walls up to the sky" still exist as mounds being excavated by archaeologists, and we know they were only 30-ish feet tall.  And a cubit is measured from the fingertips to the elbow, so its significantly smaller for someone who's 5'2" than someone who's 6'6".

Isaiah 40:22
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Numbers 13:33
33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

Deuteronomy 2:10-12
10 (The Emites used to live there—a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites.

So you feel these larger people are just taller but not giants?
"People who are bigger" is the definition of a giant.  Is Shaq a giant?  I'd say yes.  They don't need to be 15' tall to be giants.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #395 on: Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 10:01:24 »
In the end, all science so called, and scientists who have contradicted the word of God, will bend the knee and confess their sin in placing their own vain imaginations above the word of God. All those who have declared the evidences presented by bible believers backing up the bibles account of creation and the global flood to be false, pseudo, or non science, will confess their guilt for doing so before God and all humanity.

All sciences so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


The word of God is living and active, it accomplishes that which God pleases. At Creation it accomplished what God spoke, as testified in six days. As God Himself testified again in word from His own mouth and written twice with His own finger in tables of stone, to the entire nation of Israel. God does not lie, or tell exaggerating stories, and command everyone to believe and be obedient to such. People do lie, and tell exaggerated stories to exalt themselves. The theory of deep time evolution is one of those lies, which sets it's believers up above the word and testimony of God Himself. A very dangerous habit. Worse yet, those who believe it claim that those who believe God's word, cannot even begin to be considered people of science. That is proponents of factual observable truth.

Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of earth.

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9  and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. 5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings..................

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


What is the ark of God's testament in the temple of God?

Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee. 17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Deu 10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood. 2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark. 3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand. 4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. 5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.


The ark of the testament or testimony contains the Ten commandments of God. By which all of humanity shall be judged. All who reject the truth or authority of any of those commandments, shall be condemned by them. Including the fourth, which the world and even most of "Christianty" rejects today. Rejecting both the truth and authority of the same. These words spoken by the mouth of God Himself and written with His own finger for humanity. The theory of deep time evolution is a false religion and intellectual idol of fallen humanities vain imaginnings. It's false tree of life is just that. It's end is death, not life. Those who submit to this false tree of life deception in place of the commandments or fourth commandment of God, will have no right to the true tree of life in heaven unto eternal life.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

« Last Edit: Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 10:06:42 by Amo »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Giants
« Reply #396 on: Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 12:32:00 »
All sciences so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.
All theologies so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #397 on: Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 20:44:11 »
All theologies so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.

So be it unto us, as we have both declared, when we stand before God on that great day.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #398 on: Sat Sep 17, 2022 - 18:22:31 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlPq2-_TAu8

More questions regarding present time line narratives, in relation to obvious ruins from the flood.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #399 on: Sat Sep 17, 2022 - 18:24:59 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWByKmdYB2U

More about out of time and place technology.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #400 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 01:59:20 »
Quote
It took you only 2 sentences to identify their error.  You are far ahead of Amo and the answers-in-Genesis crowd.

If you feel you need something beyond the Bible to live out your "faith," such as science, you are not nearly as advanced, spiritually, as you believe yourself to be.  You are actually several steps behind people who do not require today's psuedo science to have faith in something.  Science works actively to attempt to prove God does not exists.  Science in it's purest sense has not always operated on this basis.  But since the Enlightenment, science has actively worked to eradicate faith and the concept of God.  When you make posts as some of the ones you made above, denigrating people who do not believe as you do, you actively participate in secular society's goal of eradicating religion.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #401 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 06:33:53 »
You are actually several steps behind people who do not require today's psuedo science to have faith in something.
What is pseudo science?
Quote from: Cobalt
Science works actively to attempt to prove God does not exists.
Where did you ever get such an idea?  It is completely wrong.  There may indeed be some scientists that do not believe in God, but that has nothing to do with science.
Quote from: Cobalt
Science in it's purest sense has not always operated on this basis.
And what in the world is "science in it's purest sense"? 
Quote from: Cobalt
But since the Enlightenment, science has actively worked to eradicate faith and the concept of God. 
Another totally asinine statement.
Quote from: Cobalt
When you make posts as some of the ones you made above, denigrating people who do not believe as you do, you actively participate in secular society's goal of eradicating religion.
I truly believe that people who, being seriously scientifically challenged, make statements such as you have here have done more to eradicate faith in God than all those nasty scientists that you apparently abhor.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #402 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:01:23 »
Quote
I truly believe that people who, being seriously scientifically challenged, make statements such as you have here have done more to eradicate faith in God than all those nasty scientists that you apparently abhor.

Same old, same old. As if those who view science as separated from scripture as a foundational building block of observation and conclusion, are "scientifically" superior, while those who do such are "scientifically" challenged. According to what authority are you so superior in understanding 4WD? We've been through this before. I can and have presented YEC scientists with far greater supposed "scientific credentials" of this world than you will ever have. Are they all scientifically challenged simply because you and your demigod's of deep time evolutionary theory say so? Simply because their world view is based upon scriptures, and those of your chosen faith are not?

The bottom line is simple enough. What are deep time evolutionists, but just the leaders of another faith, claiming superiority of intellect above all others in their boisterous claims because of some learning in their own specific fields of study. Which they apply as they see fit to their own understanding or faith. Nevertheless, the basics are just that, and these individuals are no wiser than any of the rest of us concerning them. The world is covered from one end to the other with countless and ever increasingly discovered small, medium, and massive graveyards of obvious extinction level event or events. Some refuse the biblical testimony regarding the reason for this most abundant evidence everywhere. Others do not. Both consider the others ignorant according to their chosen faiths regarding this evidence. One side however denies that their observations are built upon faith, while the others freely admit of the same. And there you have it in a nut shell. The same underlying core beliefs are what determine the many other observations each applies to their chosen faiths.

We can all see the same evidence, and even acknowledge this or that observable fact about them, but we will apply them differently according to our faiths. It is not always a matter of ignorance or apparent superior intellect as so often claimed, as though such knowledge was so far out of reach of the average Joe, but simple disagreement regarding one's faith. Yes some are truly ignorant, and some are truly self important and believe they actually are intellectually superior to all those who disagree with them. These are the exceptions though, not the rule. YEC's are not scientifically challenged, they are simply of another faith. Nor are deep time evolutionists of superior intellect but in their own minds perhaps, but simply of a different, perhaps more popular faith today.

Both form and submit theories according to their faiths. Some are good and withstand the tests of time and increased knowledge, many are not and do not. Neither is necessarily intellectually or scientifically challenged or superior. They are simply of different faiths or disciplines if you will. If anything ends up being superior or inferior, it will be between the faiths chosen, not actual intellect of this or that person. As for me, I will stand by scriptural testimony as the superior faith.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #403 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:30:21 »
If you feel you need something beyond the Bible to live out your "faith," such as science, you are not nearly as advanced, spiritually, as you believe yourself to be.  You are actually several steps behind people who do not require today's psuedo science to have faith in something.  Science works actively to attempt to prove God does not exists.  Science in it's purest sense has not always operated on this basis.  But since the Enlightenment, science has actively worked to eradicate faith and the concept of God.  When you make posts as some of the ones you made above, denigrating people who do not believe as you do, you actively participate in secular society's goal of eradicating religion.

Wait a minute.

First this is a silly statement

"If you feel you need something beyond the Bible to live out your "faith," such as science, you are not nearly as advanced, spiritually, as you believe yourself to be.

Why? Because the unfortunate fact of life... if you have not noticed ... is that we are alive in a world that has existed long before anyone here was ever thought of. IT IS because of that that there are things... primarily of the past that the Holy Bible does not explain.

Why? My belief is that it is totally irrelevant to why were are here and where we will be going in eternity.

And therefore has ZERO to do with faith of any kind. NOT Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist or any other.

That does not mean that we have to live in a bubble lacking curiosity.

If it was not for some scientist way back when... who came up with a vaccine against polio... how many people on here... maybe you would have been cripples all your life?

You are going to say a doctor is not a scientist.... WRONG

A scientist is a person who conducts scientific research to advance knowledge in an area of interest.

Curing the human body is an area of interest to many.

Can medical scientists be wrong.

You only have to look at Fauci ( And Birx) to know they can. Yet he still has his main interest in gain of function.

Does wanting to cure the human body go against God? Against Christianity? Against Faith? NO

So going in another direction and that is the history of things...

YOU have such by the very nature of your Christian faith and what you have endeavored to know and understand that comes from the HAND BOOK that God gave us.... The Holy Bible and What is in the four corners thereof.

But ... and not to be crude... stop and think what the bible does tell us.

It said... go and multiply.... All the way back in Genesis...

What does the bible not tell us.

HOW. There is no blueprint on how to conceive... and if it were not for scientists somewhere in history women would not even know when they were ovulating.....

And there are no instructions of manner and form ... and as far as we know intention was that all would mate like the animals....

Dont dare get into Solomon cause it is not mating specific... just forplay specific.

So when the subject comes up such as Giants....

You have not even said if you have a belief in them or not.

I posed the question long ago about why there were no skeletons found... and have only read stories about how they somehow disappeared from the Smithsonian... etc.

BUT they are mentioned in the bible..... usually under a Nephilim reference.

There are those who say the term simply describes tall people. 

Deuteronony talks of OG

Wiki says..
Deuteronomy 3:11 declares that his "bedstead" (translated in some texts as "sarcophagus") of iron is "nine cubits in length and four cubits in width", which is 13.5 by 6 feet (4.1 by 1.8 m) according to the standard cubit of a man.

To need a sarcophagus 13.5 feet by 6 feet is for a pretty tall man.

It is said  King Og was at least 11-feet tall, yet some claim up to 18. (I doubt 18 unless his legs were bent in his sarcophagus.
Or unless they broke his legs like  Pilate's command to the soldiers to break the legs of the thieves, to be sure they were dead?)

Goliath was 6 cubits and a span... that translates to around 9 feet 9 inches.

Both of these men were far above just very tall people we might commonly see today.

But you have the scientists that come in the form of archaeologists, historians, physicists, astronomers etc.

You cannot uncategorical claim every one of these fields of study is an affront to the Christian faith.

Without question I personally believe their claim of the age of the universe is wrong.... and without question I personally believe that Adam of the Garden of Eden was not the first man God made.

But I would challenge my faith to be every bit as strong as yours.

Do I follow along the explorations of all things in space. YES.

NOT to find the age of the earth or to see what they may find UFO wise...

NO... I am totally fascinated by what we have seen out there by way of shapes and colors.

Every planet or anything else they send pictures back are individual and as special as the one you are living on.

A plethora of colors... because they are all individually composed differently...

And this picture ( I could post dozens upon dozens of the differences seen ) is of our neighbors....

All created by the master of all time... Our Lord God.... what a vision He had/has.... it gives me goose bumps to know his artistry and what we now... because of some scientists can enjoy.


The planets of the solar system are varied in their appearance. Mercury is slate gray while Venus is pearly white, Earth a vibrant blue, and Mars a dusky red. Even the gas giants are different, Neptune and Uranus an opaque blue, while Jupiter and Saturn are mostly beige with brilliant red-brown belts.

jpeg-PIA03153" border="0

So many pictures showing the beauty He created... just for our Galaxy.... can be seen here

https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/planets-in-solar-system

Well, I digress yet again so I will stop.

Final comment....

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know more about what God has given to us.

It takes nothing away from our faith.

Those who are agnostic or atheist never had faith to begin with but I believe God has used them to show us his grandeur.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Giants
« Reply #404 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:56:23 »
Same old, same old. As if those who view science as separated from scripture as a foundational building block of observation and conclusion, are "scientifically" superior, while those who do such are "scientifically" challenged.
I have never made such a statement.  I have never ever suggested that anyone view science as separated from scripture. I have said on several occasions those, such as you, who are nearly devoid of any scientific knowledge are indeed scientifically challenged.
Quote from:
According to what authority are you so superior in understanding 4WD? We've been through this before. I can and have presented YEC scientists with far greater supposed "scientific credentials" of this world than you will ever have. Are they all scientifically challenged simply because you and your demigod's of deep time evolutionary theory say so? Simply because their world view is based upon scriptures, and those of your chosen faith are not?
My chosen faith?  I certainly would not bow to you in any sense of faith in God and His word.  I have no doubt whatsoever that my faith in God is every bit as sincere and deep as yours.
Quote from: Amo
The bottom line is simple enough.
Yes, it is.  And that is that you haven't a clue about what you rage on and on about when it comes to things scientific. 
Quote from: Amo
As for me, I will stand by scriptural testimony as the superior faith.
That is simply not true.  What you stand by as superior faith is your particular translation/interpretation of scripture.  As far as you are concerned, any who would disagree with you on just about anything scriptural is a non-believer.
Quote from: Amo
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Notice what it says.  It is talking about being made "wise unto salvation" and "instruction in righteousness".  There is absolutely nothing in that passage that would you make you "wise unto or instructed in science".  That you would so interpret it only shows how far out, scripturally, you really are.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:59:11 by 4WD »

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Re: Giants
« Reply #405 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 10:07:35 »
I have never made such a statement.  I have never ever suggested that anyone view science as separated from scripture. I have said on several occasions those, such as you, who are nearly devoid of any scientific knowledge are indeed scientifically challenged. My chosen faith?  I certainly would not bow to you in any sense of faith in God and His word.  I have no doubt whatsoever that my faith in God is every bit as sincere and deep as yours. Yes, it is.  And that is that you haven't a clue about what you rage on and on about when it comes to things scientific.  That is simply not true.  What you stand by as superior faith is your particular translation/interpretation of scripture.  As far as you are concerned, any who would disagree with you on just about anything scriptural is a non-believer.  Notice what it says.  It is talking about being made "wise unto salvation" and "instruction in righteousness".  There is absolutely nothing in that passage that would you make you "wise unto or instructed in science".  That you would so interpret it only shows how far out, scripturally, you really are.

Like I said, same old, same old. I don't have a clue, but 4WD does and is the authority to tell me so, apparently. According to the authority of himself as well, apparently. It is not my translation 4WD, it is every translation that anyone has ever put forth. Correct me if I am wrong by showing us a translation anywhere which says what you have chosen to believe. It does not exist anywhere in scripture. Not to mention, you yourself will not even make a conclusive statement regarding exactly what you believe. We do not even know this, but only that you do not accept what scripture simply states, as translated by every translator, thus far at least that I know. Again, please do provide evidence to the contrary, if in fact there are translations I do not know of.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #406 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 10:18:01 »
Like I said, same old, same old. I don't have a clue, but 4WD does and is the authority to tell me so, apparently. According to the authority of himself as well, apparently. It is not my translation 4WD, it is every translation that anyone has ever put forth. Correct me if I am wrong by showing us a translation anywhere which says what you have chosen to believe. It does not exist anywhere in scripture. Not to mention, you yourself will not even make a conclusive statement regarding exactly what you believe. We do not even know this, but only that you do not accept what scripture simply states, as translated by every translator, thus far at least that I know. Again, please do provide evidence to the contrary, if in fact there are translations I do not know of.
It is not difficult to find many authoritative sources who interpret the Hebrew word, "yom" translated "day" in English, to mean something other than today's 24-hour period of time.  I have presented a few of those in the past, some even being Hebrew scholars; but of course, you reject any such scholarly views.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #407 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 11:13:15 »
It is not difficult to find many authoritative sources who interpret the Hebrew word, "yom" translated "day" in English, to mean something other than today's 24-hour period of time.  I have presented a few of those in the past, some even being Hebrew scholars; but of course, you reject any such scholarly views.

There are people who interpret it as such, which some may consider authoritative, but there is no bible translation expressing the idea. There is a reason for that. Not the least of which is the fourth commandment, no doubt.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #408 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 11:31:35 »
There are people who interpret it as such, which some may consider authoritative, but there is no bible translation expressing the idea.
[/size]There is no Bible translation expressing the idea that the earth revolves around the sun, and there are plenty to suggest otherwise.  But few doubt the actual truth is found in the science..

So your argument is completely invalid.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #409 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 12:33:02 »
[/size]There is no Bible translation expressing the idea that the earth revolves around the sun, and there are plenty to suggest otherwise.  But few doubt the actual truth is found in the science..

So your argument is completely invalid.

Apples and oranges. We are not talking about what the bible does not say, we are talking about what the bible does say. It does say that the world was created in six days. Several times over.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #410 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 14:40:15 »
It is not difficult to find many authoritative sources who interpret the Hebrew word, "yom" translated "day" in English, to mean something other than today's 24-hour period of time.  I have presented a few of those in the past, some even being Hebrew scholars; but of course, you reject any such scholarly views.

Good afternoon 4WD,

May I assume that based on what I bolded and colored in your reply to Amo that you do believe, without much hesitancy , that
you  accept the scholarly views of those you suggested?

Please tell me if the following  somewhat sums up what you believe... more or less, for this is not from me it is from another who will be revealed in due time with the source as I will list it all... in the hopes that you and also AMO will read in full.

"Contrary to what is often implied or claimed by young-earth creationists, the Bible nowhere directly teaches the age of the earth.

"I want to suggest there are some good, textual reasons—in the creation account itself—for questioning the exegesis that insists on the days as strict 24 hour periods. Am I as certain of this as I am of the resurrection of Christ? Definitely not. But in some segments of the church, I fear that we’ve built an exegetical “fence around the Torah,” fearful that if we question any aspect of young-earth dogmatics we have opened the gate to liberalism. The defenders of inerrancy above show that this is not the case. And a passion for sola Scriptura provides us with the humility and willingness to go back to the text again to see if these things are so.

"How long were God’s workdays? The Bible doesn’t say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #411 on: Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 16:41:27 »
Rella,
I could go along with most of that.  Beyond that, I have presented articles by Gerold Schroeder to show how, through the theory of relativity, both the six 24-hour days of Genesis and the 13+ Billion years from science could both be literally true.  He has shown how the schedule of events over the 13+ Billion years as presented by modern-day science lines up very nearly one-to-one with the schedule laid out in the six creation days in Genesis.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #412 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 08:37:58 »
Rella,
I could go along with most of that.  Beyond that, I have presented articles by Gerold Schroeder to show how, through the theory of relativity, both the six 24-hour days of Genesis and the 13+ Billion years from science could both be literally true.  He has shown how the schedule of events over the 13+ Billion years as presented by modern-day science lines up very nearly one-to-one with the schedule laid out in the six creation days in Genesis.


I just had a reply ready to post. The article from the young blogger most will not know.

I mentioned that it has a brief statement at the beginning by RC Sproul that you will not give any credence to but it is not his article or commentary at all.

I said I hoped you and @Amo will truly read this as it has some points that are never discussed in these debates on the 24 hour day... and some interesting points on the 7th day... of rest.

I had taken time to bold, italicize , and color points for easier finding and reading...

But then Just as I was in the process of highlighting the article to make it a total quote, my mouse died, and when I changed the battery in it.... my 75 minutes of work was gone.

So.... Ill just post it here now as is and ask you please give thought to the 5 points and comments and those after.

BTW... TC likely will come along and knock this as it is not from his 100% right church... but argh... does have a Presbyterian
theologian reference toward the end, among others.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/biblical-reasons-to-doubt-the-creation-days-were-24-hour-periods/

Quote
R. C. Sproul, who drafted the original Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy, once said, “When people ask me how old the earth is, I tell them I don’t know—because I don’t.”  (This is the only place he has been mentioned... )

Contrary to what is often implied or claimed by young-earth creationists, the Bible nowhere directly teaches the age of the earth.

Rather, it is a deduction from a combination of beliefs, such as (1) Genesis 1:1 is not the actual act of creation but rather a summary of or title over Genesis 1:2-2:3; (2) the creation week of Genesis 1:2-2:3 is referring to the act of creation itself; (3) each “day” (Heb. yom) of the creation week is referring to an 24-hour period of time (reinforced by the statement in Exodus 20:11); (4) an old-earth geology would necessarily entail macroevolution, hominids, and animal death before the Fall—each of which contradicts what Scripture tells us; and (5) the approximate age of the earth can be reconstructed backward from the genealogical time-markers in Genesis.

These five points may all be true, but I think it’s helpful to understand that the question “how old is the earth?” is not something directly answered in Scripture but rather deduced from these and other points.

It is commonly suggested that this is such a “plain reading” of Scripture—so obviously clear and true—that the only people who doubt it are those who have been influenced by Charles Darwin and his neo-Darwinian successors. The claim is often made that no one doubted this reading until after Darwin. (This just isn’t true—from ancient rabbis to Augustine to B. B. Warfield—but that’s another post for another time.)

So it may come as a surprise to some contemporary conservatives that some of the great stalwarts of the faith were not convinced of this interpretation.

Augustine, writing in the early fifth century, noted, ”What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible, to determine” (City of God 11.7).

J. Gresham Machen (1881-1937), author of the 20th century’s best critique of theological liberalism, wrote, “It is certainly not necessary to think that the six days spoken of in that first chapter of the Bible are intended to be six days of twenty four hours each.”

Old Testament scholar Edward J. Young (1907-1968), an eloquent defender of inerrancy, said that regarding  the length of the creation days, “That is a question which is difficult to answer. Indications are not lacking that they may have been longer than the days we now know, but the Scripture itself does not speak as clearly as one might like.”

Theologian Carl F. H. Henry (1913-2003), one of the most important theologians in the second half of the twentieth century and a defender of Scriptural clarity and authority, argued that “Faith in an inerrant Bible does not rest on the recency or antiquity of the earth. . . . The Bible does not require belief in six literal 24-hour creation days on the basis of Genesis 1-2. . . . it is gratuitous to insist that twenty-four hour days are involved or intended.”

Old Testament scholar and Hebrew linguist Gleason Archer (1916-2004), a strong advocate for inerrancy, wrote ”On the basis of internal evidence, it is this writer’s conviction that yôm in Genesis could not have been intended by the Hebrew author to mean a literal twenty-four hour day.”

I want to suggest there are some good, textual reasons—in the creation account itself—for questioning the exegesis that insists on the days as strict 24 hour periods. Am I as certain of this as I am of the resurrection of Christ? Definitely not. But in some segments of the church, I fear that we’ve built an exegetical “fence around the Torah,” fearful that if we question any aspect of young-earth dogmatics we have opened the gate to liberalism. The defenders of inerrancy above show that this is not the case. And a passion for sola Scriptura provides us with the humility and willingness to go back to the text again to see if these things are so.

What follows are brief sketches of biblical reasons to doubt young-earth exegesis.

1. Genesis 1:1 Describes the Actual Act of Creation Out of Nothing and Is Not a Title or a Summary

Genesis 1:1 tells us that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

This is not a title or a summary of the narrative that follows. Rather, it is a background statement that describes how the universe came to be.

In Genesis 1:1, “created” is in the perfect tense, and when a perfect verb is used at the beginning of a unit in Hebrew narrative, it usually functions to describe an event that precedes the main storyline (see Gen. 16:1, 22:1, 24:1 for comparison).

Furthermore, the Hebrew conjunction at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 supports this reading.

If Genesis 1:1 is merely a title or a summary, then Genesis does not teach creation out of nothing. But I think Genesis 1:1 is describing the actual act of God creating “heaven and earth” (a merism for the universe, indicating totality—like “high and low,” “east and west,” “near and far,” “rising up and sitting down,” “seen and unseen”). Genesis 1:1 describes the creation of everything “visible and invisible” (Col. 1:16), with Genesis 1:2ff. focusing upon the “visible.”

After the act of creation in Genesis 1:1, the main point of the narrative (in Gen. 1:3-2:3) seems to be the making and preparation of the earth for its inhabitants, with a highly patterned structure of forming and filling.

Screen Shot 2015-01-28 at 8.37.11 AM

2. The Earth, Darkness, and Water Are Created Before “The First Day”

In Genesis 1:1, God creates the “heavens and the earth.” (In Joel 3:15-16 we see that “heavens” encompasses the sun, the moon, and the stars.) Then in Genesis 1:2 we are told that this earth that was created is without form and void, that darkness covers the waters, and that the Spirit is hovering over it.

If Genesis 1:1 is not the act of creation, then where do the earth, the darkness, and the waters come from that are referred to in Genesis 1:2 before God’s first fiat? Further, if the sun is created in day four (Gen. 1:16), why do we have light already appearing in Genesis 1:3?

It helps to remember that in Hebrew there are distinct words for create and make. When the Hebrew construction let there be is used in the phrase “Let your steadfast love . . . be upon us” (Ps. 33:22; cf. Ps. 90:17; Ps. 119:76), this obviously isn’t a request for God’s love to begin to exist, but rather to function in a certain way. Similarly, if the sun, moon, stars, and lights were created in Genesis 1:1, then they were made or appointed for a particular function in Genesis 1:13, 14, 16—namely, to mark the set time for worship on man’s calendar.

3. The Seventh “Day” Is Not 24 Hours Long

In Genesis 2:2-3 where we are told that “on the seventh day [yom] God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day [yom] from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day [yom] and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.” The question we have to ask here is: was God’s creation “rest” limited to a 24-hour period? On the contrary, Psalm 95 and Hebrews 4 teach that God’s Sabbath rest “remains” and that we can enter into it or be prevented from entering it.

Miles Van Pelt observes:

In Exod 20:11, the command for the people of God to remember the Sabbath day is grounded in God’s pattern of work and rest during the creation week. The people of God are to work for six solar days (Exod 20:9) and then rest on the seventh solar day (Exod 20:10). If, therefore, it can be maintained that God’s seventh day rest in Gen 2 extends beyond the scope of a single solar day, then the correspondence between the “day” of God’s rest and our “day” of observance would be analogical, not identical. In other words, if day seven is an unending day, still in progress, then our weekly recognition of that day is not temporally identical. As such, there is no reason to maintain that the same could not be true for the previous six days, especially if the internal, exegetical evidence from Genesis 1 and 2 supports this reality.

4. The “Day” of Genesis 2:4 Cannot Be 24 Hours Long

After using “the seventh day” in an analogical way (i.e., similar to but not identical with a 24-hour day), we read in the very next verse, Genesis 2:4: “These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [yom] that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.”

The precise meaning of this is debated. But what seems clear, if we believe the Bible does not contradict itself, is that this (singular) “day”—in which the creation events (plural “generations”) occur—cannot refer to a single 24-hour period. In fact, it does not seem to correspond to any one of the creation week days, but is either a reference to the act of creation itself (Gen. 1:1) or an umbrella reference to the lengthier process of forming and fitting the inhabitable earth (Gen. 2:2ff). In either case, this use of yom presents a puzzle for those who insist that “young-earth” exegesis is the only interpretation that takes the opening chapters of Genesis “literally.”

Defenders of the 24-hour view acknowledge that yom can mean more than a single calendar day but often insist that “[numbered] yom“ (e.g., “first day”) always, without exception, refers to a 24-hour day in the Hebrew Bible. This is not true, however. Not only does the rest of the canon tell us that the ”seventh day” is not 24 hours, but Hosea 6:2 (“third day”) seems to be used in an analogical way that does not refer to a precise 24-hour time period.

5. The Explanation of Genesis 2:5-7 Assumes More Than an Ordinary Calendar Day

In his article “Because It Had Rained” (part 1 and part 2), Mark Futato of Reformed Theological Seminary explains the logic of Genesis 2:5-7 and shows its role in OT covenantal theology.

Futato sees in this passage a twofold problem, a twofold reason, and a twofold solution.

Screen Shot 2015-01-27 at 9.40.28 AM

The twofold problem?

No wild vegetation had appeared in the land.
No cultivated grains had yet sprung up.
The twofold reason for this problem?

The Lord God had not sent rain on the land.
There was no man to cultivate the ground.
The twofold solution to this problem?

God caused rain clouds to rise up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
The Lord God formed the man.
Note the reason why there were no shrubs or small plants in the Garden: because “it had not yet rained.” The explanation for this lack of vegetation which is attributed to ordinary providence. But if the sixth day is a 24-hour period, this explanation would make little sense. The very wording of the text presupposes seasons and rain cycles and a lengthier passage of time during this “day [yom]” that God formed man. This doesn’t mean that it refers to thousands of years, or hundreds of years. It just means that it’s very doubtful it means a 24-hour period.

So What Does God Mean by “Days” in Genesis 1?

Let’s go back to the “seventh day.” On the seventh day, according to Exodus 31:17, God “rested and was refreshed.” Why would an omnipotent and inexhaustible God need to be “refreshed”? It’s the same Hebrew word used for getting your breath back after running a long race (Ex. 23:2; 2 Sam. 16:14). The reason it is not improper to say that God was refreshed is the same reason it’s not improper to say that God breathes, hovers, is like a potter, gardens, searches, asks questions, comes down, etc.—all images of God used in Genesis. God’s revelation to us is analogical (neither entirely identical nor entirely dissimilar) and anthropomorphic (accommodated and communicated from our perspective in terms we can understand).

So when God refers to “days,” does he want us to mentally substitute the word “eons” or “ages”? No.

Does he want us to think of precise units of time, marked by 24 exact hours as the earth makes a rotation on its axis? No.

Does he want us to think of the Hebrew workday? Yes, in an analogical and anthropomorphic sense. Just as the “seventh day” makes us think of an ordinary calendar day (even though it isn’t technically a 24-hour period), so the other “six days” are meant to be read in the same way.

This is what the great Reformed theologian Herman Bavinck (1854-1921) believed: “The creation days are the workdays of God. By a labor, resumed and renewed six times, he prepared the whole earth.”

This is also what the Presbyterian theologian W.G.T. Shedd (1820-1894) advocated:

The seven days of the human week are copies of the seven days of the divine week. The “sun-divided days” are images of the “God-divided days.”

This agrees with the biblical representation generally. The human is the copy of the divine, not the divine of the human. Human fatherhood and sonship are finite copies of the Trinitarian fatherhood and sonship. Human justice, benevolence, holiness, mercy, etc., are imitations of corresponding divine qualities.

The reason given for man’s rest upon the seventh solar day is that God rested upon the seventh creative day (Ex. 20:11). But this does not prove that the divine rest was only twenty-four hours in duration any more than the fact that human sonship is a copy of the divine proves that the latter is sexual.

Augustine (the most influential theologian in the Western Church) believed something similar, as did Franz Delitzsch (perhaps the great Christian Hebraist). It was the most common view among the late 19th century and early 20th century conservative Dutch theologians.

God is portrayed as a workman going through his workweek, working during the day and resting for the night. Then on his Sabbath, he enjoys a full and refreshing rest. Our days are like God’s workdays, but not identical to them.

How long were God’s workdays? The Bible doesn’t say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.



Offline 4WD

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Re: Giants
« Reply #413 on: Mon Sep 26, 2022 - 13:17:30 »
Rella,
That is very much how I would describe, and have described, the creation events. I could take issue with some of the statements there, but it would not be helpful to the discussion here. The major points that are raised there are the very same major points that I have raised in many of the discussions that I have held with YECs.

I think if you could look back on all of what I have said in the past, you would find on several occasions, I have raised the issue of God's seventh day of rest which is even now, according to the Bible itself, still in progress.

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Re: Giants
« Reply #414 on: Tue Sep 27, 2022 - 09:16:30 »
Side tracking this conversation to a reference.

I HAVE NOT read it all but wanted to get it posted before I lose it as I ran across this mention of giants when I was delving into Josephus about the flood.

https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/giants.html

This is what caused me to post this link so quickly without fully reading it:  But have read enough to ask who knows anything about the mentioned Book of Giants and Enoch?

"Overshadowed by Enoch’s Greatness: “Two Tablets” Traditions from the Book of Giants to Palaea Historica

"Preaching to the Giants

It was observed earlier that in Josephus’ account the “two stelae” story is attached to the Watchers/Giants narrative. The author of Jewish Antiquities portrays Noah’s unsuccessful preaching to the Giants. J. Vanderkam notes that “it is not impossible that Josephus took his information from a source such as 1 Enoch 6-11, which mentions Noah but not Enoch, although in those chapters Noah does not try to improve the overbearing giants.”[37] Indeed, despite the fact that some traditions point to a possible close relationship between Noah and the Giants in view of his miraculous birth,[38] his “experience” in dealing with the Giants in Enochic traditions cannot be even compared with Enoch’s record. In various Enochic materials, Enoch is pictured as the special envoy of the Lord to the Watchers/Giants with a special, long-lasting mission to this rebellious group, both on earth and in other realms. The Book of Watchers depicts him as the intercessor to the fallen angels. According to Jub. 4:22, Enoch “...testified to the Watchers who had sinned with the daughters of men... Enoch testified against all of them.”[39] In the Book of Giants Enoch delivers the written “sermon,” reprimanding the Watchers/Giants’ sinful behavior and warning them about the upcoming punishment.[40] 2 Enoch 18 portrays Enoch’s “preaching” to the Watchers during his celestial tour, encouraging them to start the liturgy before the face of the Lord.[41]
An examination of the surviving evidences to the “two stelae” story shows that some of them attest to a tradition different from that attested in Josephus. Instead of Noah’s preaching to the Giants, they portray Enosh’s preaching to the sons of God. Two references about the preaching to the sons of God in the “two stelae” traditions are especially important. Both of them have been preserved in the Armenian language and include the Armenian History of the Forefathers and Abel.
The Armenian History of the Forefathers 40-44 deals with the two stelae story. In 45 the narrative continues with the description of Enosh’s preaching:


https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/giants.html

Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Giants
« Reply #415 on: Thu Sep 29, 2022 - 01:45:33 »
Quote
I truly believe that people who, being seriously scientifically challenged, make statements such as you have here have done more to eradicate faith in God than all those nasty scientists that you apparently abhor

And you know this . . . how?

I see that when you see something in a scientific vein you don't accept, your default way to go is to claim the other person doesn't like science simply because they do not agree with you.  Logically, that is a non-starter.

I doubt there are many people here, or anywhere who have watched Jame's Burke's "Connections" series, all 3 of them, more times than I have.  I have all of them digitalized and I watch them often.  The problem is not with science.  The problem is people who try to come to "scientific" conclusions outside of an understanding that God didn't just create the Earth.  He created science as well.  God is in control of science, just as He is in control of everything else.  But some people don't seem to be able to grasp this concept.  God was forced to create a universe billions of years old, because Evolutionists say so.  Every single time that you, or anyone else on here denigrate YEC's and claim they hate science or say they are stupid for believing in a young Earth, what you are actually saying is that an omnipotent Creator was unable to create a young Earth.  Over in the creation thread you have people pretty much directly saying the Bible isn't reliable when it comes to Genesis.  That Genesis isn't a literal description of actual events.  If you are not a young Earth believer, the first thing you have to do is toss Genesis in the trash, because it conflicts with a belief in an ancient, ancient Earth.  When you claim to be a devote Christian, but you start figuring out ways to marginalize certain books of the Bible because they don't fit your personal worldview, you create yourself some spiritual problems.  You can poke fun at other people for believing that all scripture is divinely inspired and reliable, but that doesn't solve your problem.

Offline Cobalt1959

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Re: Giants
« Reply #416 on: Thu Sep 29, 2022 - 01:54:18 »
Quote
First this is a silly statement

That was taking the long way around the barn.  Kind of a novella.  I'm not sure what you expect me to do with it.  God is not forced to have created the universe the way you think He did.  I thought the point was pretty plain.  You, and a couple other people in this thread frequently make fun of people who express a belief in a young Earth.  And you do it with a smug, smarter-than-you attitude.  Like anyone who doesn't believe the way you do are stupid, uneducated hicks.  Both behaviors are a problem, from a Christian point of view.  But I guess when you are more advanced than them that makes the poor behavior acceptable . . .

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Re: Giants
« Reply #417 on: Thu Sep 29, 2022 - 08:03:26 »
That was taking the long way around the barn.  Kind of a novella.  I'm not sure what you expect me to do with it.  God is not forced to have created the universe the way you think He did.  I thought the point was pretty plain.  You, and a couple other people in this thread frequently make fun of people who express a belief in a young Earth.  And you do it with a smug, smarter-than-you attitude.  Like anyone who doesn't believe the way you do are stupid, uneducated hicks.  Both behaviors are a problem, from a Christian point of view.  But I guess when you are more advanced than them that makes the poor behavior acceptable . . .

Ah, Cobalt... lighten up.

First things are that no one... no, not one person here is calling anyone an uneducated hick.

The plain truth of the matter is that we... the people... collectively... on GC.... have differing opinions of every single thing within the four corners of the Holy Bible....

Is that wrong? Certainly not, because even the authors of the first 4 gospels in the New testament do not 100% agree with each other and them living back then... even if recording from word of mouth being passed down... one would think that it would all match.

Do I tend to write too much. Sure.

First it is the latent author in me....

Next... not sure if it is because God made me this way, or because of my age, or maybe just being a woman I tend to have my mind offshoot in areas that carry conversations in differing directions. ALSO I use a lot of reference points and if you have not noticed... a few folk here even knock the education and knowlege of theologians and far better educated people then I if they happen to disagree with them ... which is a good 90% of the time.

BTW.... YOU try being a woman in these biblical theological debates where most of the men here feel you should be in the kitchen out of the men's conversations. And then try being in a different denomination then everyone else.... and then you will know what being made fun of is really about.... and add to that people actually questioning or saying you are not saved....
you tend to get a back bone... or just fade away...

You say... "You, ( meaning me) and a couple other people in this thread frequently make fun of people who express a belief in a young Earth.

I do beg to differ with you on that. As for myself... there is only one that I habitually go after... and he retaliates to me. But it is not because we make fun of either's biblical beliefs....I am just waiting until the day he consistently wears his long pants ::tippinghat::

As to young earth.  If that is your belief, fine...many do.

I happen to believe the earth is not only 6,000, 8,000 or 13,000 years old and that stems from my firm belief that Adam of the Garden of Eden was not the first man God made.

Now... I am not going into a long explanation of that on here because I, admittedly am in the minority believing that... just like I do believe Jesus was married.... I also believe in giants, and the flood covering the entire earth.

Ya wanna make fun of me.... go right ahead.  I know what I know and knowing what I know allows me to say... I knew that.
(My best Kamala imitation. rofl)

Offline 4WD

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Re: Giants
« Reply #418 on: Thu Sep 29, 2022 - 08:20:12 »
And you know this . . . how?
I don't KNOW this; but I do think it may well be the case.  That is because, when so many, perhaps most by far, who have been taught the YEC version of creation, see that nearly the entire extent of available data does not support it, they not only abandon their belief in the YEC version of creation, but they abandon their belief in God and His word as truth.
Quote from: Cobalt1959
I see that when you see something in a scientific vein you don't accept, your default way to go is to claim the other person doesn't like science simply because they do not agree with you.  Logically, that is a non-starter.
No, it is not that the other person doesn't like science simply because they do not agree with me; rather, it is because the other person doesn't agree with what the implied results of the available data.
Quote from: Cobalt1959
I doubt there are many people here, or anywhere who have watched Jame's Burke's "Connections" series, all 3 of them, more times than I have.  I have all of them digitalized and I watch them often.  The problem is not with science.  The problem is people who try to come to "scientific" conclusions outside of an understanding that God didn't just create the Earth.  He created science as well.  God is in control of science, just as He is in control of everything else.  But some people don't seem to be able to grasp this concept.
I am not familiar with James Burke.  I shall look him up.  However, while it is true that many reject God, generally, including the fact that God, in creating the universe, also created the natural laws that control the universe.  There are many however who are believers and recognize God as the creator of the universe including the natural laws that control it.

Ironically, it is usually the YEC types who object to the natural laws that God created as He created them; and instead insist that those natural laws have been changed in ways to allow the interpretation of creation to fit their own YEC narrative. Thus, for example, the speed of light is not constant, but has been changed from what it is now to allow for what now appears to imply the existence of a universe billions of years old.
 
Quote from: Cobalt1959
God was forced to create a universe billions of years old, because Evolutionists say so. 
No, that is not true at all.  It is not because Evolutionists say so; rather, it is because the data from God's own science says so.  I would imagine that your James Burke would not agree that the data from God's own science says so and instead thinks God's own science says something else. But that nearly always comes by way of a denial of the science that is.
Quote from: Cobalt1959
Every single time that you, or anyone else on here denigrate YEC's and claim they hate science or say they are stupid for believing in a young Earth, what you are actually saying is that an omnipotent Creator was unable to create a young Earth.
That is not true at all.  First I do not denigrate YECs; I do reject their interpretation of some things in the Bible.  I believe it is entirely possible that an omnipotent Creator is quite capable of creating a young Earth.  One cannot prove that He didn't.  One cannot prove that He didn't create the entire universe together with the entire apparent history of events 6000 years ago; or 4000 years ago; or 1000 years ago, or yesterday.  However, that is not what God's own science says happened.  God's own science suggests something else entirely.  So if God did if fact create a young Earth, then it seems to me He is being very deceptive in doing something that is in contradiction to the evidence presented by His own science.
Quote from: Cobalt1959
Over in the creation thread you have people pretty much directly saying the Bible isn't reliable when it comes to Genesis.  That Genesis isn't a literal description of actual events.  If you are not a young Earth believer, the first thing you have to do is toss Genesis in the trash, because it conflicts with a belief in an ancient, ancient Earth.  When you claim to be a devote Christian, but you start figuring out ways to marginalize certain books of the Bible because they don't fit your personal worldview, you create yourself some spiritual problems.  You can poke fun at other people for believing that all scripture is divinely inspired and reliable, but that doesn't solve your problem.
Jesus said, "I am the door". Is that true? Is that a literal description of actual conditions?  He said, "I am the true vine".  Is that a literal description?

I am curious.  Genesis tells us that when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of forbidden fruit, they "become as one of us, to know good and evil".  What is your literal description of that event? Did they not know, before the ate that fruit, it was wrong to disobey God; did they not know before they ate that fruit that obeying God was good and disobeying God was evil? Please, what is the literal description of that event.  Or how about "he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." What is your literal description of that event?  Or how about on the first day,  "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" , and yet there were no sun, moon or stars to give light until the fourth day.  What is your literal description of those events?

Could it possibly be that you simply want to pick and choose which are literal descriptions and which are not?

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Re: Giants
« Reply #419 on: Sat Oct 01, 2022 - 08:37:27 »
Quote
"How long were God’s workdays? The Bible doesn’t say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.

How about God who cannot lie, descending upon a mountain top before the entire nation of Israel making it smoke like a chimney stack, and telling that entire nation who understand a day to be from evening to evening, that He created the world in six days? Confirming what Moses told them and wrote in Genesis under Divine inspiration from God as well? Not to mention the many other confirmations from scripture in both the old and new testaments, or the complete lack of any suggestion otherwise anywhere in scripture.

Whoever wrote or spoke the above quote, simply did not want to see any reason to believe they were days as we all understand them. As it will be found to be with all who have rejected the simple and plain testimony of scripture, in the end. God does not lie, He has no need to exaggerate as we do, and He is and always has been perfectly capable of expressing the truth in a manner that all can easily understand. This is not to say that God cannot or does not also speak in symbols, which He fully intends only certain people should understand. Such as biblical prophecy, which is meant specifically for the guidance of His own in this world. The subject of creation though, is most obviously not among these exceptions. Being plainly stated and backed up several times, including testimony straight from the mouth and finger of God.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 01, 2022 - 08:46:56 by Amo »