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Offline anchorman

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:53:50 »
 
 If someone was harming my child- I want to kill them...and that's why I don't own gun, because I don't want that as an option.

Read the 26th chapter- he is telling us instead of arming ourselves- turn to his father in prayer. God will either provide a way out- and if he doesn't than what happens is his will.

Now as for the gentlemen who says what happens with the sword is really about Holy Wars- I don;t even know where to begin on this. But the proof that  your wrong comes a few lines later in that chapter where you see all the apostles flee in protection. The sword was self defense- not just defense of Jesus- the fact they ran away proves they were interested in survival...and yet Christ told them to put their faith in God

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:53:50 »

Offline jb728b

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:06:47 »
It's a strange idea that "not owning a gun" would actually prevent a person from killing someone else.  A gun simply makes killing more expedient it doesn't prevent it.  Believe me if person "A" really wanted to kill person "B" do you think the lack of a gun would prevent that?  Of course if person "B" had a gun he could prevent person "A" from killing him.  But that makes too much sense.

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:06:47 »

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #107 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:10:24 »
Answer my post on the bottom of page 7, Anchorman.

Robert

Offline anchorman

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:18:52 »
Actually- Rams you don't know who you are taking.

As a journalist I have- on two occasions- had a weapon pointed at me. In one case, back in 1994 when I was a producer- (and I know from your previous post that you will remember this) I was with a crew that traved to Chiapas to interview Subcomandante Marcos- who was the leader of a revelountary group called the Zapatistas. We were surronded- not just by machine guns- but by young kids holding machines guns.  

There were times when I was really scared for my life, but I never wished that I was armed. All though- I did wonder why I wasn't paid more.

Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer. You may think that turning the other cheek is crap- I think it is the way of the Lord

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:18:52 »
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Offline Snargles

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:50:45 »
It's a strange idea that "not owning a gun" would actually prevent a person from killing someone else.  A gun simply makes killing more expedient it doesn't prevent it.  Believe me if person "A" really wanted to kill person "B" do you think the lack of a gun would prevent that?  Of course if person "B" had a gun he could prevent person "A" from killing him.  But that makes too much sense.

The idea is that by the time you go to Honest Sam's Used Gun Store and purchase your piece you will have calmed down and realized that it is better to sue the other guy for $100000 than just shoot him and go to jail.

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:50:45 »



Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #110 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:52:30 »

Anchorman,

It always leaves me in wonder how people who have never seen anything remotely close to a weapon pointed at their face, any weapon held by those who are intent to kill you, or at least, do great harm, and then stand there and try and apply what you intone, as do so many others.

They really think they can, and somehow they think this is Godly..........., biblical or both.

In fact, the more isolated one is from any sort of harm, like you, here in the US or Canada or wherever, the more draconian that stance is to be so passive by boast,  and so wrong on the whole Biblical premise of self defense.

May I come there and point my 12 gauge sawed off shotgun at your cheek?  See how you do. Of course, in that scenario, like sometimes where and how I find myself, if I "slap" you with it, there is nothing but a pink, purple, and very bloody writhing, jerking, offal dripping stump left so there is no 'cheek' to turn, now is there.

Amazing revisionism.

Robert

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #111 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:54:42 »

 If someone was harming my child- I want to kill them...and that's why I don't own gun, because I don't want that as an option.

Read the 26th chapter- he is telling us instead of arming ourselves- turn to his father in prayer. God will either provide a way out- and if he doesn't than what happens is his will.



Excerpted:

Then, it is safe to infer there is a way out. And that could very well be one being armed......

Robert

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #112 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 10:05:31 »
Actually- Rams you don't know who you are taking.

As a journalist I have- on two occasions- had a weapon pointed at me. In one case, back in 1994 when I was a producer- (and I know from your previous post that you will remember this) I was with a crew that traved to Chiapas to interview Subcomandante Marcos- who was the leader of a revelountary group called the Zapatistas. We were surronded- not just by machine guns- but by young kids holding machines guns.  

There were times when I was really scared for my life, but I never wished that I was armed. All though- I did wonder why I wasn't paid more.

Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer. You may think that turning the other cheek is crap- I think it is the way of the Lord

Then you know what I speak.  And I laughed so hard at your statement above, "Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer", as it is so amazing.

ANSWER:  No, he would not. Since he is GOD in the flesh, he would kill all the people on Earth by water in the flood and save 6, then tell them, I'll do it again, watch the fire next time.

Such silliness.

And lo, how possible could I "know who you are"?

And your tale, as a journalist, yes, I know exactly what you were seeing and doing and feeling, and it was not your time as the Lord protected you, perhaps as a journalist, with maybe numbers and not you just by yourself.  Who knows, but the Lord does.  You came out on the other side with no harm.

I will say if I had been there and someone would have started shooting, as a fellow American, I would grabbed a weapon, tackled you, held you down with me as protection and started "shootin' and lootin'" till it was over, then introduce myself to you and ask,  "You okay, partner......?"

Then, we would have discovered we were both in Jesus Christ.  Would you then say, "you shot all those people and saved me......You are a murderer and filled with hateful sin......."

Consider?

Robert





Offline jb728b

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #113 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 12:52:40 »
What would Jesus do?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Should a Christian own a Sword?  A sword was created for the very same purpose as a gun.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #114 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 12:57:49 »
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
    —Matthew 26:52, King James Version


 A little context please!

The context concerns those who would take up arms to FORCE religious views.  Notice WHY Peter drew his sword, it was to force others to accept Jesus on his (Peters) terms.  This text is simply a condemnation of "Holy Wars", crusades and other such nonsense.  Nothing to do with self defense or protection.  Also, did you notice,  the apostle Peter owned a sword.

It wasn't to force anyone to accept Jesus, it was to prevent Jesus from being captured.

What would Jesus do?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Should a Christian own a Sword?  A sword was created for the very same purpose as a gun.

I don't believe Luke 22:36 is a Christian call to arms.

If so why are the Apostles and disciples getting martyred without a fight?

Offline jb728b

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #115 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:08:12 »
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
    —Matthew 26:52, King James Version


 A little context please!

The context concerns those who would take up arms to FORCE religious views.  Notice WHY Peter drew his sword, it was to force others to accept Jesus on his (Peters) terms.  This text is simply a condemnation of "Holy Wars", crusades and other such nonsense.  Nothing to do with self defense or protection.  Also, did you notice,  the apostle Peter owned a sword.

It wasn't to force anyone to accept Jesus, it was to prevent Jesus from being captured.

What would Jesus do?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Should a Christian own a Sword?  A sword was created for the very same purpose as a gun.

I don't believe Luke 22:36 is a Christian call to arms.

If so why are the Apostles and disciples getting martyred without a fight?

Whoa!  What is this crap about "call to arms"?  Those are your words not mine.  Talk about twisting and distorting. 

The question was "Should Christians own guns?"
Not
"Should idiots go on a shooting rampage?" 
 Get the facts straight!

Second let's look at Jesus again.

Since Jesus called people vipers and white washed tombs and chased the money changers in the temple  with a whip  I guess he didn’t practice what he preached about turning the other cheek.

Can a Christian own a whip?
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:15:48 by jb728b »

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #116 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:20:34 »
No reason to get caustic because I disagree with you or used a poor choice of words.

But the question still remains, if Christians are allowed to use swords or weapons in self-defense why do we see so many Christians getting murdered for their faith in the New Testament without a fight?

Offline zoonance

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #117 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:24:44 »
Perhaps because they were murdered for their refussal to deny Him.  Not in protecting their families etc.?

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #118 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:28:58 »
Perhaps because they were murdered for their refussal to deny Him.  Not in protecting their families etc.?

I wasn't really asking why they were murdered, since that is a subject of little debate. But the question is why didn't the disciples ever put of a fight when faced with death, why does Paul constantly get beaten, stoned, imprisoned, harassed, etc. without defending himself with a weapon or even any resistance?

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #119 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:29:15 »
No reason to get caustic because I disagree with you or used a poor choice of words.

But the question still remains, if Christians are allowed to use swords or weapons in self-defense why do we see so many Christians getting murdered for their faith in the New Testament without a fight?

Hilarious..........
JB did not get "caustic" at all.  He answered your question perfectly and it still remains as does my comments to you also that you have not addressed yet or had time to, on pages 7,8 and above.

Charles,  come on friend, clear the mind some.

Robert

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #120 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:31:39 »
No reason to get caustic because I disagree with you or used a poor choice of words.

But the question still remains, if Christians are allowed to use swords or weapons in self-defense why do we see so many Christians getting murdered for their faith in the New Testament without a fight?

Hilarious..........
JB did not get "caustic" at all.  He answered your question perfectly and it still remains as does my comments to you also that you have not addressed yet or had time to, on pages 7,8 and above.

Charles,  come on friend, clear the mind some.

Robert

He said I was twisting a distorting, that was unnecessary.

But what comments addressed to me did I over look?

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #121 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:32:17 »
Charles,

I, nor you, and or anyone here or alive is either Paul, Jesus, or Isaiah of Jeremiah, etc.

We are human, first, then saved by Grace.

We will and do kill at the sake of war, defense or defeating the ides of darkness, roaming the wasteland, to then witness, love and live another day.

Robert

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #122 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:33:40 »
Charles,

I, nor you, and or anyone here or alive is either Paul, Jesus, or Isaiah of Jeremiah, etc.

We are human, first, then saved by Grace.

We will and do kill at the sake of war, defense or defeating the ides of darkness, roaming the wasteland, to then witness, love and live another day.

Robert

We are called to live our lives as they did, in obedience to the Gospel and the Word of God.

Just claiming we are not them isn't a defensible argument.

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #123 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:35:20 »
Actually- Rams you don't know who you are taking.

As a journalist I have- on two occasions- had a weapon pointed at me. In one case, back in 1994 when I was a producer- (and I know from your previous post that you will remember this) I was with a crew that traved to Chiapas to interview Subcomandante Marcos- who was the leader of a revelountary group called the Zapatistas. We were surronded- not just by machine guns- but by young kids holding machines guns.  

There were times when I was really scared for my life, but I never wished that I was armed. All though- I did wonder why I wasn't paid more.

Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer. You may think that turning the other cheek is crap- I think it is the way of the Lord

Then you know what I speak.  And I laughed so hard at your statement above, "Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer", as it is so amazing.

ANSWER:  No, he would not. Since he is GOD in the flesh, he would kill all the people on Earth by water in the flood and save 6, then tell them, I'll do it again, watch the fire next time.

Such silliness.

And lo, how possible could I "know who you are"?

And your tale, as a journalist, yes, I know exactly what you were seeing and doing and feeling, and it was not your time as the Lord protected you, perhaps as a journalist, with maybe numbers and not you just by yourself.  Who knows, but the Lord does.  You came out on the other side with no harm.

I will say if I had been there and someone would have started shooting, as a fellow American, I would grabbed a weapon, tackled you, held you down with me as protection and started "shootin' and lootin'" till it was over, then introduce myself to you and ask,  "You okay, partner......?"

Then, we would have discovered we were both in Jesus Christ.  Would you then say, "you shot all those people and saved me......You are a murderer and filled with hateful sin......."

Consider?

Robert



=========================

Charles,

This one here above I have re-posted, mostly.  And Anchorman's initial post also, in retort to me.

I am intrigued for you to address this as you see things.

Robert

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #124 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:40:57 »
I'm sorry Robert, I just don't understand what you are saying.  Its okay to kill people for the greater good? That just doesn't line up with Scripture or with the example of Christ from my understanding.

I'm sorry I don't have more to say.

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #125 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:44:48 »
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #126 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:45:37 »
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.

Offline kensington

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #127 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:34:18 »
You guys are twisting the word for the sake of argument....  Charles I did give you a scripture ... Mark 3:37

And there is a BIG difference in being martyred for the Kingdom and the WORD of God, than defending the innocent lives of your children in your home.

IF you are preaching the gospel, and someone takes hold of you and kills you for doing that, you have no reason to fight, you have done well.  As the apostles did.

If you are in your home, and someone is breaking in to rob you, rape your wife or even your child, and you shoot them, you have not done anything wrong.
MARK 3:37 

They are different.  Really.   But, of course... continue the pee contest.... as you were.  ::rolling::

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #128 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:40:25 »
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.

Have you found any compelling argument from scripture against owning them?

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #129 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:45:05 »
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.

Have you found any compelling argument from scripture against owning them?

Numerous, and repeatedly throughout this thread.

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #130 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:48:05 »
You guys are twisting the word for the sake of argument....  Charles I did give you a scripture ... Mark 3:37

And there is a BIG difference in being martyred for the Kingdom and the WORD of God, than defending the innocent lives of your children in your home.

IF you are preaching the gospel, and someone takes hold of you and kills you for doing that, you have no reason to fight, you have done well.  As the apostles did.

If you are in your home, and someone is breaking in to rob you, rape your wife or even your child, and you shoot them, you have not done anything wrong.
MARK 3:37 

They are different.  Really.   But, of course... continue the pee contest.... as you were.  ::rolling::

Honey, the verse is Mark 3:27 and Jesus is speaking in parable about demonic possession.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #131 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:02:15 »
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.

Have you found any compelling argument from scripture against owning them?

Numerous, and repeatedly throughout this thread.

I haven't seen one.

Offline anchorman

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #132 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:09:25 »
  Charles- since it was your question that started this thread- I just wanted to say that I am proud of you.

You have a new baby at home and as a good father you want to do everything to protect this precious child. And yet you asked this question (I am guessing here) because protection is not enough- first and foremost you also want to set an example of what a good Christian man looks like.

The courage you've shown on this board far exceeds what those who rush for the comfort of a gun can ever understand

Offline anchorman

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #133 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:12:47 »
gary I have been wondering where you have been all day on this issue. Here is my sciputral arguement against using a gun for protection.  I am reposting this from earlier because I want you to way in
____________________________________________ _______________

Rams- in the eyes of God there is no difference between a slap on the cheek and someone pointing a gun in your face. How does that passage start off; "do not resist an evil person." What does resist mean; fight back.

Christ is telling you: Do not fight back.

Now what is really amazing to me is that anyone on this board would use Mathew 26:52 as an arguement for guns...in fact it's a clear cut arguement against guns and specfically against using guns for protection.

The context- and try as you might you cannot take it out of context- is one of an invasion- not unlike someone breaking into your home. Here comes Judas with the army- which under 25:47 clearly says the army has its swords drawn. "47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs" Not unlike an armed robber.

So what does Peter do- he pulls out a sword- just like a homeowner running for his gun. And Christ publically rebukes him. Telling him not to fight back- that violence breads more violence; "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword"

But don't stop there. On the next line of scripture- Jesus tells Peter where his faith should invested,---not in guns but in God. VS 53 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

In the eyes of Christ you can only live by the cross- living by the gun is not an option- not a Christian option anyway. To even buy a gun is to not have faith in God's plan


Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #134 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:19:07 »
gary I have been wondering where you have been all day on this issue. Here is my sciputral arguement against using a gun for protection.  I am reposting this from earlier because I want you to way in
____________________________________________ _______________

Rams- in the eyes of God there is no difference between a slap on the cheek and someone pointing a gun in your face. How does that passage start off; "do not resist an evil person." What does resist mean; fight back.

Christ is telling you: Do not fight back.

Now what is really amazing to me is that anyone on this board would use Mathew 26:52 as an arguement for guns...in fact it's a clear cut arguement against guns and specfically against using guns for protection.

The context- and try as you might you cannot take it out of context- is one of an invasion- not unlike someone breaking into your home. Here comes Judas with the army- which under 25:47 clearly says the army has its swords drawn. "47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs" Not unlike an armed robber.

So what does Peter do- he pulls out a sword- just like a homeowner running for his gun. And Christ publically rebukes him. Telling him not to fight back- that violence breads more violence; "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword"

But don't stop there. On the next line of scripture- Jesus tells Peter where his faith should invested,---not in guns but in God. VS 53 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

In the eyes of Christ you can only live by the cross- living by the gun is not an option- not a Christian option anyway. To even buy a gun is to not have faith in God's plan



Still don't see it.  I am not "living by the gun" because I have a .30-06 in my house.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #135 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:21:33 »
  Charles- since it was your question that started this thread- I just wanted to say that I am proud of you.

You have a new baby at home and as a good father you want to do everything to protect this precious child. And yet you asked this question (I am guessing here) because protection is not enough- first and foremost you also want to set an example of what a good Christian man looks like.

The courage you've shown on this board far exceeds what those who rush for the comfort of a gun can ever understand



Thanks for your kindness.

That is really what this is all about, but really it isn't enough for people just to tell me its okay to satisfy my convince. I really need to find something in Scripture to support and advocate the use of guns in self-defense. I would rather not think about someone coming in my home and threatening my family, but I don't want that same fear to motivate me to becoming a gun nut.

But what really got me thinking about this was after watching a few of these movies, and realizing that our gun rights are under attack. But again I am torn, just because the radical left is trying to ban guns and the right-wing are trying to protect our rights shouldn't move me one way or the another. I am supposed to be a citizen of a heavenly kingdom where Christ is my king, not some republican or democrat.

So again I don't know, I got alot on my mind with issues addressed in this topic. But one thing is clear, Biblically Christians are hard pressed to support gun use in self-defense.

Offline Imabear

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #136 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 16:44:27 »
An excerpt from: http://www.thirdway.com/peace/?Page=1828|What+Would+Jesus+Do%3F  A Mennonite View of the Issue...
Quote
...Perhaps we don’t want to hear what Jesus has to say: “Love your enemies. Do not resist an evildoer. Pray for those who persecute you

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #137 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 16:50:29 »
So, if someone's breaking in or attacking your family, do any of you refuse to call 911 on the basis that it's an expression of a lack of faith, and the fact that the police who come may indeed use lethal force if necessary?

To be consistent with some of the views expressed, you'd have to.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #138 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 16:50:56 »
I would like to see a balanced view that doesn't seem to flippantly dismiss the OT in favor of the NT, or dismiss the NT in favor of the OT.

The "Hebrew Scriptures" are not just for Hebrews, they are our scriptures.  

Offline Imabear

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #139 on: Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 17:02:32 »
Actually, I have lots of guns in my house.  My FIL was publisher of Sports Afield back in the '50's and '60's.  He had lots of guns.  After a period of time he was transferred to Good Housekeeping as director of advertising.  (Talk about a switch.)  But when he passed on, hubby, who was the only son out of 5 kids, inherited the guns.   

We had some phone line problems a few years back.   The guy from the phone company commented on our "impressive" security system.  Maybe I should learn how to use it.  :)