Christian Forums and Message Board

Reply #35 by Bon Voyage

Quote from: Gary on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 18:51:46

Quote from: chosenone on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 17:52:07

I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Guns are very much part of your culture but does that mean that it is a good thing? Culture can change and very often should. surely.
We are always hearing about colleges and schools there where someone has murdered loads of kids and shot themselves. if they didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened . Shootings there are rife, and that is terrible and wrong. If there were no guns that wouldnt happen either. of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.

You still don't understand our culture at all.  Here, if more law abiding folks have guns, there is less crime.  If respect is taught for guns, things are fine.  My dad's .30-06 rifle was always just setting inside their closet.  His ammunition was in the sock drawer.  I knew not to touch it.  I went out with my dad to shoot at some deer at a very young age.  When I was 5 or 6 I had a pellet gun.

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Reply #36 by Corbley God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ??

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Reply #37 by Jimbob God said, "Thou shalt not murder."  There is a difference, or he would not have commanded capital punishment in the LoM.

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Reply #38 by Bon Voyage

God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ??

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.

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Reply #39 by Snargles

Quote from: Corbley on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 09:51:00

God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ??

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.

The OT "Thou shalt not kill" is sometimes translated "Do not murder" and then a discussion ensues about the meaning of "murder.'

People like to use OT scripture to support warfare, executions and packing heat. We are not Jews and we are not under OT law. In OT times it was the nation of Israel against every one else. God spoke to the prophets who passed on his commands. Now we are to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. All nations can come to Christ. God doesn't deliver a message to a prophet to go kill all the Canadians or all the North Koreans. We are to turn the other cheek, pray for those who abuse us and look forward to the time we will be in heaven. There is no place in all of this for shooting people who transgress earthly law. We do as we have been taught in scripture and the bad guys will get what's coming to them in judgment.

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Reply #40 by sopranette Okay....here's the plan.  You distract him and read to him from John 3:16, I'll go get the 12 guage.

love,

Sopranette

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Reply #41 by Jimbob

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Reply #42 by Jimbob As to the OT in consideration of principles, consider the following passages of the NT, referring to the writings of the OT:

1 Cor 10:6-12
6   Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
7   Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
8   We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did-- and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
9   We should not test the Lord, as some of them did-- and were killed by snakes.
10   And do not grumble, as some of them did-- and were killed by the destroying angel.
11   These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
12   So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(NIV)

2 Tim 3:14-17
14   But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
15   and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16   All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17   so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(NIV)

In both cases the principle is addressed that the OT scriptures are there for our learning, and our learning how to live a faithful life as Christians.  The pre-Pentecost Scriptures were not thrown out with the bath water of the old covenant.  They still teach a great deal about the character of God and the character of His people.

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Reply #43 by Corbley

Quote from: Gary on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 10:16:41

Quote from: Corbley on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 09:51:00

God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ??

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.

The OT "Thou shalt not kill" is sometimes translated "Do not murder" and then a discussion ensues about the meaning of "murder.'

People like to use OT scripture to support warfare, executions and packing heat. We are not Jews and we are not under OT law. In OT times it was the nation of Israel against every one else. God spoke to the prophets who passed on his commands. Now we are to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. All nations can come to Christ. God doesn't deliver a message to a prophet to go kill all the Canadians or all the North Koreans. We are to turn the other cheek, pray for those who abuse us and look forward to the time we will be in heaven. There is no place in all of this for shooting people who transgress earthly law. We do as we have been taught in scripture and the bad guys will get what's coming to them in judgment.

We are under the New Law,.....But that does not dismiss the Old Law....It is there for a reason.
The New Law is applied yes, but the new Laws do not break any of the Old Laws
For example:  The Old Law says "An Eye for an eye"  The New law says turn the other Cheek"
By turning the other cheek we have not broken the Old Law...Only added an amendment..

The Old Law still Applies

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Reply #44 by RAMS To Gary and Corbley,

It is so much lost now in the ides of new ageism and a roman indulgence type of begin upon the plain in that folks simply do not understand the real deal, in 80% of the planet.

I see it in all my travels, and the world is very very empty place, contrary to the nonsense demon like mantra of CNN and other media about resources, overcrowding, earth warming, etc etc etc. It is gibberish and it is wrong.

I travel to the far sides of the world. The Earth is adroit at producing banditos, great evil roaming the ethers of our lands and world. I have survived by the law of Jeremiah and Isaiah, and lived to see another day. There is wonder out on the wasteland. And there is great travail.

I have resorted to having to defend my life to the death and have threatened same, and will do so as it is required.

I also often times shoot for my food in places where I have none.  I bled out, butcher, and cook on fire, my food and eat with relish what the Lord provides me.

I am thankful that both of you men understand this and live by the gun, love by the cross.

Hail to you both, fellow warriors upon the plain.

Robert

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Reply #45 by sopranette And the ladies, too, Robert.

love,

Sopranette

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Reply #46 by RAMS

And the ladies, too, Robert.

love,

Sopranette

Yes, dear maiden, yes yes.

I oft times in rescues am reminded of your words above.  I find myself like in Majahual whereby I lost a few teeth in a scruffle with an Australian ex-pat who would not leave a maiden friend of mine alone, and I had to intervene.  I ask him to stop. He hit me and knocked out a bunch of my teeth.  I responded with hitting him in the face with a beer mug.  It occurred in my eatery place of 'Tina's Cantina', in Majahual, where I often repast and have a beer.

The bandito is still in the hospital in Tulum, now, 5 months later, and I wish him well.

But the maiden, Sierra Maja, 23, is fine and afterwards as she and her girlfriend Maria Terrie, was nursing my bloody mouth and face said, "you are wild and a warrior, Robert, but if I had a gun I would have shot him for you and saved your poor face and teeth......."

Maidens, historically, live by the same mantra as my salutation to Gary and Corbley, and your post is confirmation for that, and I do thank you. It surprises me in that this culture here is so bereft of passion and heart it is unusual for a maiden to address such as you have.

Thank you, dearest and my hat is tipped to you and a kiss stolen and put upon your cheek!......

(and I am here in the northwest US for repairs and now have new implant teeth. Good.)

Hail, to you........

Robert

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Reply #47 by sopranette Thanks, Robert. 

I get a little annoyed at the anti-gun people who say we really don't need anything for self defense, because they are already safe.  Well, my question to them is, who, besides God, is protecting you?  The ones who are carrying legally, that's who.  The police, the military, even your next door neighbor is making sure you are safe to go about your daily business.  Especially for women, self defense is something all people should learn and practice.

love,

Sopranette

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Reply #48 by RAMS True.  Live by the gun, love by the cross


Robert

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Reply #49 by Corbley

To Gary and Corbley,

It is so much lost now in the ides of new ageism and a roman indulgence type of begin upon the plain in that folks simply do not understand the real deal, in 80% of the planet.

I see it in all my travels, and the world is very very empty place, contrary to the nonsense demon like mantra of CNN and other media about resources, overcrowding, earth warming, etc etc etc. It is gibberish and it is wrong.

I travel to the far sides of the world. The Earth is adroit at producing banditos, great evil roaming the ethers of our lands and world. I have survived by the law of Jeremiah and Isaiah, and lived to see another day. There is wonder out on the wasteland. And there is great travail.

I have resorted to having to defend my life to the death and have threatened same, and will do so as it is required.

I also often times shoot for my food in places where I have none.  I bled out, butcher, and cook on fire, my food and eat with relish what the Lord provides me.

I am thankful that both of you men understand this and live by the gun, love by the cross.

Hail to you both, fellow warriors upon the plain.

Robert

I bet you have some fantastic stories of your travels.....You should write a book...If you haven't already

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Reply #50 by RAMS

I bet you have some fantastic stories of your travels.....You should write a book...If you haven't already

Well, thanks to Double Day and the fact they own some of my paintings, am doing just that. Preliminary title thus far for drafts and slush pile submission requests by them is:

"Behold The Gold"
The Search for Balboa's Gold, A Grand And Disturbing Adventure

DoubleDay's By-line, off record:

"The true story of Robert A.M. Stephens, from unemployed cowboy out of Montana, to astronaut candidate to be the first artist in space. A true story of one mans journey from a life in rural Montana to traveling and seeking the quest for love and adventure to the far sides of the world and back."

"Seeking gold, treasure, fighting Muslin extremists in Asia, walking through China before it was open to the west, living on the razor's edge in Inner Mongolia and all points on the compass in between. The adventure of a lifetime and as Mr. Stephens says at age 56, ' the voyage is only half over'." 

"Robert A.M. Stephens is the living embodiment of Indiana Jones, wearing his fedora from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', a personal gift from Harrison Ford after the actor bought two of his paintings.  His travels, travails, great personal loss and tragedy, great triumphs against overwhelming odds, and his conviction to never give up, makes for a modern day Don Quixote and Ghengis Kahn mixed into one."

"Stephens fought Conjestive Heart Failure from a scuba diving mishap with NASA and survived, healed then went on to keep diving, adventuring, and still runs with the wind as few men do. A tale of conviction laced with resolve.  The Artist-Archeologist-Adventurer makes his Home in Majahual, Quintana Roo, Yucatan."

bla bla bla........

The tome is due out in 2011, in May, but is in the 'can' as they say before their publicity announcement, and Paramont is discussing the movie rights.

We will see.  Very nice, but just noise in life is all.

But I still want to find Pizarro's and Balboa's Gold........

Robert

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Reply #51 by chosenone

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 02:35:26

of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.

Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought

Quote

Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

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Reply #52 by RAMS

[

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

You are in gross error.  Please correct such an inane statement.

The first firearm, a matchlock, over 500 years ago, and 90% of all firearms since, are produced and sold for For Getting Food!.

You are here as a human being, typing away, because of a firearm or many and those men that in brevity used them to stead back the forces of travail and tyranny.

Consider this immutable fact.

Robert

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Reply #53 by chosenone

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 19:47:33

[

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

You are in gross error.  Please correct such an inane statement.

The first firearm, a matchlock, over 500 years ago, and 90% of all firearms since, are produced and sold for For Getting Food!.

You are here as a human being, typing away, because of a firearm or many and those men that in brevity used them to stead back the forces of travail and tyranny.

Robert

 

Robert

We do not need guns we really can live without them you know. they are for killing whether it be humans or animals. your hospital emergency rooms are full of gunshot wound victims, especially in the cities. Countless thousands are shot each year in your cities. apart from in war, they are not needed. we manage without them, why cant you?

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Reply #54 by Bon Voyage

Quote from: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 19:54:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 19:47:33

[

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

You are in gross error.  Please correct such an inane statement.

The first firearm, a matchlock, over 500 years ago, and 90% of all firearms since, are produced and sold for For Getting Food!.

You are here as a human being, typing away, because of a firearm or many and those men that in brevity used them to stead back the forces of travail and tyranny.

Robert

 

Robert

We do not need guns we really can live without them you know. they are for killing whether it be humans or animals. your hospital emergency rooms are full of gunshot wound victims, especially in the cities. Countless thousands are shot each year in your cities. apart from in war, they are not needed. we manage without them, why cant you?

Because the United States is a lot different than the UK. 

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Reply #55 by Snargles

Thanks, Robert. 

I get a little annoyed at the anti-gun people who say we really don't need anything for self defense, because they are already safe.  Well, my question to them is, who, besides God, is protecting you?  The ones who are carrying legally, that's who.  The police, the military, even your next door neighbor is making sure you are safe to go about your daily business.  Especially for women, self defense is something all people should learn and practice.

love,

Sopranette

Ever hear "If God is for us who can be against us"? If God is protecting us why do we need anyone else? If you want to live forever you might need some protection but if you are just putting in your time on earth until you receive your reward, don't worry about protecting yourself with a gun.

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Reply #56 by RAMS Bizarre.

Robert

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Reply #57 by MegaJedi To ask this question, you should ask the people back in the Time of David, "Should followers of GOD (The CHRISTians before  CHRIST came to earth) if theu should have owned spears.  The answer in my mind (again like you said for protection/selfdefence) is yes.

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Reply #58 by Charles Sloan

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 22:25:01

Can this be justified by Scripture, or is this just your personal beliefs apart from the Bible?

Yes.

Okay...

The underlying argument for gun control seems to be that the availability of guns causes crime. By extension, the availability of any weapon would have to be viewed as a cause of crime. What does the Bible say about such a view?

No sir, the question was about Christians owning and using guns in self-defense not gun control.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg569959.html#msg569959

Strawman.

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, or at least very close to the beginning -- in Genesis 4. In this chapter we read about the first murder. Cain had offered an unacceptable sacrifice, and Cain was upset that God insisted that he do the right thing. In other words, Cain was peeved that he could not do his own thing.

Cain decided to kill his brother rather than get right with God. There were no guns available, although there may well have been a knife. Whether it was a knife or a rock, the Bible does not say. The point is, the evil in Cain's heart was the cause of the murder, not the availability of the murder weapon.

God's response was not to ban rocks or knives, or whatever, but to banish the murderer. Later (see Genesis 9:5-6) God instituted capital punishment, but said not a word about banning weapons.

Like I said, this discussion was never about gun control.

Exodus 22:2-3 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

I wonder with your application of Exodus, would you also advocate the practice stoning your children to death for disobedience, gluttony or drinking? (Deu 21:18-21) Or would you agree that homosexuals should be put to death? (Lev 18:22, 29) Or would you support bringing back slavery today? (Exd 21)

If you are going to just cherry pick verses to support your opinion it might be safer to just admit its just your opinion.

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Reply #59 by Jimbob You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

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Reply #60 by Charles Sloan

You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?

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Reply #61 by RAMS

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 22:02:08

You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?

Chuck,

Here it is.  It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have.

I truly operate by Live by the gun - Love by the cross.

If I can lead the intruder(s) violators to the Lord, like I do with the Marxist Banditos that wish to kill me for a 'toll' when I cross from Honduras into Nicaragua, that is the better plan and mission.

Hope that is more clear cut for you.

Robert

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Reply #62 by sopranette

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 08:08:42

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 02:35:26

of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.

Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought

Quote

Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

And if the wife had the permission to own a gun, she could have stopped this tragedy.  The news always talks about murders; that's the business they're in.  The news will constantly feed into people's fears. That's what sells. But you almost never hear of murders prevented when the would be victim is armed."A murder was prevented today when the would be assailant confronted an armed citizen".....yawn.

love,

Sopranette

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Reply #63 by Jimbob

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 22:02:08

You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?

No.  Which side of Malachi a passage comes from is not indicative of proof-texting.  Just because a passage is found in, say, Matthew instead of Genesis does not mean it more weight (or is "more fitting") or has greater credibility.  All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness..."

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Reply #64 by chosenone

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 19:47:33

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 08:08:42

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 02:35:26

of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.

Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought

Quote

Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

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"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

And if the wife had the permission to own a gun, she could have stopped this tragedy.  The news always talks about murders; that's the business they're in.  The news will constantly feed into people's fears. That's what sells. But you almost never hear of murders prevented when the would be victim is armed."A murder was prevented today when the would be assailant confronted an armed citizen".....yawn.

love,

Sopranette

She couldnt have stopped this as she was asleep at the time she was shot. Also would she have shot her husband? I wouldnt shoot my husband whatever the reason.
Gun crime breeds more gun crime. One of the reasons why we resist the police bing armed here is bacause everyone knows that  if they were there would be far more shootings and more criminals would arm themselves.

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Reply #65 by sopranette No, a sword in hand keeps another's in its scabbard.  Legal gun ownership keeps crimes from happening, otherwise only the criminals will be armed.  And if, for some very strange reason my husband were to go beserk and go after our children intending to kill them, I would definitely do everything in my power to stop him.  Maybe you live in the city, with lots of police ready to come at a moment's notice, but out here it can take quite a while.  And there are parts of the US were there is only maybe one cop for every 30 miles or so.

love,

Sopranette

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Reply #66 by WileyClarkson The answer to C Sloans question is found in the Gospels: A Big Yes, Christians can own weapons for self defense by example!

Matt 26: Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and arrested him. 51Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place;

Luke 5He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?

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Reply #67 by Charles Sloan

Chuck,

Here it is.  It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have.

I truly operate by Live by the gun - Love by the cross.

If I can lead the intruder(s) violators to the Lord, like I do with the Marxist Banditos that wish to kill me for a 'toll' when I cross from Honduras into Nicaragua, that is the better plan and mission.

Hope that is more clear cut for you.

Robert

Thanks Robert, I appreciate you explaining your opinions and your reasoning behind it.

But Chuck is my father.

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Reply #68 by anchorman   Snargles is right. The 2nd ammandment does not provide a right to individuals to own hand guns. As written it is alll about militias, if this point was not true than any gun control legilsation would be unconsititional...but as we know from the Clinton adminstration certain weapons have been banned.

The question here seems basically absurd. Guns are tools of death and Christians should have no part of them. Anyone who disagrees answer this question: is it all right for a chrisitan to own condoms?

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Reply #69 by Charles Sloan I don't really see a relationship between guns and condoms.

Can you explain?

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