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Author Topic: Should Christians Own Guns?  (Read 145619 times)

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Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2008, 09:35:10 PM »
You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2008, 09:35:10 PM »

Offline RAMS

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2008, 10:57:14 PM »
You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?

Chuck,

Here it is.  It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have.

I truly operate by Live by the gun - Love by the cross.

If I can lead the intruder(s) violators to the Lord, like I do with the Marxist Banditos that wish to kill me for a 'toll' when I cross from Honduras into Nicaragua, that is the better plan and mission.

Hope that is more clear cut for you.

Robert

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2008, 10:57:14 PM »

Offline sopranette

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2008, 04:06:11 AM »
of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.
Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought


Quote
Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."



people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

And if the wife had the permission to own a gun, she could have stopped this tragedy.  The news always talks about murders; that's the business they're in.  The news will constantly feed into people's fears. That's what sells. But you almost never hear of murders prevented when the would be victim is armed."A murder was prevented today when the would be assailant confronted an armed citizen".....yawn.

love,

Sopranette

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2008, 04:06:11 AM »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2008, 05:51:41 AM »
You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?
No.  Which side of Malachi a passage comes from is not indicative of proof-texting.  Just because a passage is found in, say, Matthew instead of Genesis does not mean it more weight (or is "more fitting") or has greater credibility.  All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness..."

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2008, 05:51:41 AM »
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Offline chosenone

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2008, 06:13:08 AM »
of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.
Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought


Quote
Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."



people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

And if the wife had the permission to own a gun, she could have stopped this tragedy.  The news always talks about murders; that's the business they're in.  The news will constantly feed into people's fears. That's what sells. But you almost never hear of murders prevented when the would be victim is armed."A murder was prevented today when the would be assailant confronted an armed citizen".....yawn.

love,

Sopranette


She couldnt have stopped this as she was asleep at the time she was shot. Also would she have shot her husband? I wouldnt shoot my husband whatever the reason.
Gun crime breeds more gun crime. One of the reasons why we resist the police bing armed here is bacause everyone knows that  if they were there would be far more shootings and more criminals would arm themselves.

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2008, 06:13:08 AM »



Offline sopranette

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2008, 06:20:09 AM »
No, a sword in hand keeps another's in its scabbard.  Legal gun ownership keeps crimes from happening, otherwise only the criminals will be armed.  And if, for some very strange reason my husband were to go beserk and go after our children intending to kill them, I would definitely do everything in my power to stop him.  Maybe you live in the city, with lots of police ready to come at a moment's notice, but out here it can take quite a while.  And there are parts of the US were there is only maybe one cop for every 30 miles or so.

love,

Sopranette

Offline WileyClarkson

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2008, 07:11:04 AM »
The answer to C Sloans question is found in the Gospels: A Big Yes, Christians can own weapons for self defense by example!

Quote
Matt 26: Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and arrested him. 51Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place;

Luke 5He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2008, 07:33:41 AM »
Chuck,

Here it is.  It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have.

I truly operate by Live by the gun - Love by the cross.

If I can lead the intruder(s) violators to the Lord, like I do with the Marxist Banditos that wish to kill me for a 'toll' when I cross from Honduras into Nicaragua, that is the better plan and mission.

Hope that is more clear cut for you.

Robert

Thanks Robert, I appreciate you explaining your opinions and your reasoning behind it.

But Chuck is my father.

Offline anchorman

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2008, 07:58:25 AM »
  Snargles is right. The 2nd ammandment does not provide a right to individuals to own hand guns. As written it is alll about militias, if this point was not true than any gun control legilsation would be unconsititional...but as we know from the Clinton adminstration certain weapons have been banned.

The question here seems basically absurd. Guns are tools of death and Christians should have no part of them. Anyone who disagrees answer this question: is it all right for a chrisitan to own condoms?

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2008, 07:59:53 AM »
I don't really see a relationship between guns and condoms.

Can you explain?

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2008, 07:59:53 AM »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2008, 08:29:37 AM »
  Snargles is right. The 2nd ammandment does not provide a right to individuals to own hand guns. As written it is alll about militias, if this point was not true than any gun control legilsation would be unconsititional...but as we know from the Clinton adminstration certain weapons have been banned.

The question here seems basically absurd. Guns are tools of death and Christians should have no part of them. Anyone who disagrees answer this question: is it all right for a chrisitan to own condoms?

Absurd all right.  I could as easily just say that Christians shouldn't drink Pepsi because the body is a temple of the Lord, and Pepsi isn't profitable for the body of a Christian.

If you believe it is wrong to own a gun, don't.  I know it isn't wrong for me, I need one for protection.  And it isn't even protection from people, but from Mountain Lions, snakes, coyotes, etc.  And potentially for food, if my aim at long distances improves.

Offline anchorman

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2008, 11:20:03 AM »
Okay Charles- here is what I am thinking.

Guns are tools of violence and in some cases death. Now if you read some of the response here, from people like Garry, they seem to say "I only use them on animals and for protection...therefore since I don't use them to murder people there is nothing wrong with me owning one. I haven't committed a sin"

So- by comparison condoms are tools of lust and sex. My question is this; is it okay to own a condom if you never use to commit adultery? Is it okay to own porn if you never watch it? Is it okay to buy drugs if you never snort or smoke them?

Possesion is 9/10th of law- my point is how you use these items is irrelevant. The sin is committed at the point of purchase

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2008, 11:25:10 AM »
Okay Charles- here is what I am thinking.

Guns are tools of violence and in some cases death. Now if you read some of the response here, from people like Garry, they seem to say "I only use them on animals and for protection...therefore since I don't use them to murder people there is nothing wrong with me owning one. I haven't committed a sin"

So- by comparison condoms are tools of lust and sex. My question is this; is it okay to own a condom if you never use to commit adultery? Is it okay to own porn if you never watch it? Is it okay to buy drugs if you never snort or smoke them?

Possesion is 9/10th of law- my point is how you use these items is irrelevant. The sin is committed at the point of purchase


Condoms are meant to prevent pregnancy.  Your entire argument is fallacious.  There seems to be no biblical basis for your argument.

Offline anchorman

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2008, 11:40:35 AM »
in today's world condems are meant for protection. Gee- why does that word sound so familar...oh, that's right because it's the same one you used Gary to describe why you have a gun.

Simple fact of the matter- and the supreme court has backed this up time and time again- there is no consitutional proection for the rightsd of indivdual to have guns

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2008, 11:42:45 AM »
in today's world condems are meant for protection. Gee- why does that word sound so familar...oh, that's right because it's the same one you used Gary to describe why you have a gun.

Simple fact of the matter- and the supreme court has backed this up time and time again- there is no consitutional proection for the rightsd of indivdual to have guns

This isn't about what you believe the constitution says.  This is about whether Christians should own guns or not.  In my state, there is a constitutional right for individuals to have guns, and it was a condition of admittance into the union.