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General Discussion => General Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Charles Sloan on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 14:32:27

Title: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 14:32:27
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 14:46:06
I suppose that a variety of views will emerge:

A) Having a gun pointed at a bad guy may be enough to stop a violent act.  (Actually putting bullets in the gun leaves one open to investigation, true.) So owning a gun, even for this purpose, would just be a fascimile of it's potential

B) Christians should not own anything for self or home defense (guns, knives, clubs, mace, guard dogs, hired police stationed out front, etc.) only prayer.  Direct or indirect use of these proves that our faith in God to protect us is not strong.  Even hiring a policeman or using a dog to protect and defend only shifts the responsibility to others - leaving our own concience intact.

C) Guns don't kill people, people do.  Even if it is the bad guy suffering the consequences of a violent attack - a form of self killing as if he/she pulled the trigger themselves. 

D) No.

E) Yes.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 14:48:09
I lean toward B and E, I'm sure you could understand my problem..
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 15:47:21
If I were a good Mennonite, my answer would be close to B. 
Their reasoning behind that decision is a little different though.

They believe the commands do not kill, love your enemies, blessed are the peacemakers... even applies in cases like this.
Not that you don't take any action. 
Basically, God is in control.  He will protect and provide.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 15:49:40
God sent Smith and Wesson and Mr. Remington or Sir Banelli to protect my house.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 16:36:33
Categorically, absolutely.

I have had a weapon since I was 6 years old: shooting my new .22 single shot Stevens as a gift from my daddy. Always carried a weapon on the ranch growing up, for bears, cougars, etc. Always carried an 870 12 gauge sawed off shotgun and 30-30 lever action, both in scabbards on the saddle.

Still carry 2, 12 gauge 870 Remington Magnum shotguns in VEX when traveling south. One a sawed off 12 gauge with 8 shot magazine extension and 20" barrel,  and the other a long gun with full choked 28" barrel.

When  I cross into the southern reaches of Honduras, I always have the short shotgun on the dash holder for dealing with the Marxist banditos who wish to extract a 'toll' from me when I cross there, heading into western Nicaragua.  On several occaisions had I not had both with me, I would not be here.......

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: avenger on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 16:49:12
The better question would be.............Why shouldn't we?  ::shrug::

Avenger  ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 16:57:19
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: mikeyjc on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 17:01:05
The closest I ever got to a real loaded gun was when I had a detective (retired now) of the Metropolitian Toronto Police over for lunch one day and he set his gun down on my dining room table for a few moments.  It kind of unnerved me a little.

But tasers...now that I would not mind having for self defense.  However, the last time I was accosted by thugs the Lord woke up a sister in Christ, told her to pray for me and I was delivered--no harm done to me, my wallet given back to me fully intact and I could feel the presence of the Lord encircling me as I walked away from them--no gun needed, no taser for that matter!

If guns were legal here in Canada would I buy one?  No...  The taser does intrigue me somewhat but I'd probably be better off not having one of those.  I can think of some people that I would like to zap with it!  ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 17:04:26
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?
Better him than me.  And your intent is not to kill, but stop.  You would want a firearm with a sufficient amount of stopping power, aiming for center mass (chest).

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: mikeyjc on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 17:49:20
Back in the fall the 1975 I was about to start some post secondary school education at a college in Toronto.  It was before I was saved and I had gone to a bar and had gotten pretty hammered that evening. I took the bus home and I walked into a house that looked identical to the one I was renting a room.  These two houses looked the same.   The front door had been unlocked and I stepped insided.  Then crouching at the top of the stairs was a man--the owner of the house.  Then his wife appeared beside him  I realized at that point, despite my alcohol fogged brain, that I had entered the wrong house.  I apologized and went next door to the house I should have gone to in the first place.  The next morning I saw the gentleman raking leaves and again I apologized for intruding into his home so late at night.

The thing is...I had made an honest mistake.  But had this happened in the US instead of Canada, do you think that I could have been shot and killed that night?  This is a serious question here.  Please give me your honest opinion.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 17:52:07
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Flying To on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 17:56:36
How ironic...the advertisement above!


I say God is your shield and if you need protection he can protect you.

Cast all fears to him and he can make you stronger.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bonnie on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 18:17:52
I don't like guns and the intruder would probably wind up taking it from me and killing me with it.

Maybe I'll get a new BB.  Do they still make those things?  ::pondering::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 18:51:46
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 18:56:32
The first inkling that a dictatorship is coming is the outlawing of guns.  Those who would give up their freedom for security deserve neither. (to paraphrase....I'm too tired to look for the exact quote).

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 19:57:36
I don't like guns and the intruder would probably wind up taking it from me and killing me with it.

Maybe I'll get a new BB.  Do they still make those things?  ::pondering::
A paintball gun would work better than a BB gun.  At least then they'd know to look for the guy with the fluorescent pink and yellow splotches! rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: mikeyjc on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 20:03:36
I don't like guns and the intruder would probably wind up taking it from me and killing me with it.

Maybe I'll get a new BB.  Do they still make those things?  ::pondering::
A paintball gun would work better than a BB gun.  At least then they'd know to look for the guy with the fluorescent pink and yellow splotches! rofl

One of the young men in the church I used to attend showed some of us his thigh after a prior evening of paintball.  He was bruised --huge and very dark.  I was shocked at the severity of that bruise.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: k-pappy on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 20:30:38
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

DUCK!

Kidding...facts have proven the exact opposite in Australia...after they banned guns and forced people to turn them in, violent crime increased, as did gun violence.  Why?  Lawful gun owners turned them in, criminals did not.


Back in the fall the 1975 I was about to start some post secondary school education at a college in Toronto.  It was before I was saved and I had gone to a bar and had gotten pretty hammered that evening. I took the bus home and I walked into a house that looked identical to the one I was renting a room.  These two houses looked the same.   The front door had been unlocked and I stepped insided.  Then crouching at the top of the stairs was a man--the owner of the house.  Then his wife appeared beside him  I realized at that point, despite my alcohol fogged brain, that I had entered the wrong house.  I apologized and went next door to the house I should have gone to in the first place.  The next morning I saw the gentleman raking leaves and again I apologized for intruding into his home so late at night.

The thing is...I had made an honest mistake.  But had this happened in the US instead of Canada, do you think that I could have been shot and killed that night?  This is a serious question here.  Please give me your honest opinion.

mickey, I do not think you would have been shot in that case...unless you drew a weapon on your neighbor...but since you lived right next door, he probably recognized you anyway.

This is a typical misnomer about gun ownership.  People think that when we own a gun for self defense, we automatically shoot anybody who enters our home.  Not so.  I would use it if an intruder was armed, without hesitation.  However, if some guy just walked in through the front door, I would merely ask him what he was doing in my house....if it was a drunk neighbor, I would probably laugh at him...  ::cool::

In Christ,
KP
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 21:53:44
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?

Categorically.  Count on it. Let God sort it out, thereafter.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 21:58:33
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Gary,

You talkin' my ex home, Montana?  Or New Mexico, the 5th largest state in the union?

I agree with you absolutely.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Mon Nov 10, 2008 - 22:25:01
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?

Categorically.  Count on it. Let God sort it out, thereafter.

Robert

Can this be justified by Scripture, or is this just your personal beliefs apart from the Bible?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 00:10:24
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Gary,

You talkin' my ex home, Montana?  Or New Mexico, the 5th largest state in the union?

I agree with you absolutely.

Robert

Montana.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 01:38:54
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Gary,

You talkin' my ex home, Montana?  Or New Mexico, the 5th largest state in the union?

I agree with you absolutely.

Robert

Montana.

I grew up and was raised in Whitefish, between Whitefish and Kalispell. 10 miles from each on Stillwater Dr, along the Stillwater River.  Winter ranged down near St. Ignatius. Summer ranged over on the Sweet Grass and Red Lodge as well as on the Blackfoot.

I forgot our discussion on this and why I had a sordid memory of the place. But the essence, I cannot deny it, remains within me, still. My adoption of New Mexico about 20 years for a U.S. origin haunt when I am back in country has had the same effect in attachment with no sordid memories.

Did you or do you hunt? 

If so did you go after Whitetail or Elk?

Folks haven't an idea about the American-Rocky Mountain west, understandably.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 01:46:27



Can this be justified by Scripture, or is this just your personal beliefs apart from the Bible?


Yes.

The underlying argument for gun control seems to be that the availability of guns causes crime. By extension, the availability of any weapon would have to be viewed as a cause of crime. What does the Bible say about such a view?

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, or at least very close to the beginning -- in Genesis 4. In this chapter we read about the first murder. Cain had offered an unacceptable sacrifice, and Cain was upset that God insisted that he do the right thing. In other words, Cain was peeved that he could not do his own thing.

Cain decided to kill his brother rather than get right with God. There were no guns available, although there may well have been a knife. Whether it was a knife or a rock, the Bible does not say. The point is, the evil in Cain's heart was the cause of the murder, not the availability of the murder weapon.

God's response was not to ban rocks or knives, or whatever, but to banish the murderer. Later (see Genesis 9:5-6) God instituted capital punishment, but said not a word about banning weapons.

Exodus 22:2-3 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

Another question asked by Christians is "Doesn't having a gun imply a lack of trust that God will take care of us?"

Answer:  No That is why we have weapons and firearms in our possession.

Another: 

"What are you afriad of by owning a weapon?

Answer:  Nothing.

Just some facts, on subject.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 02:35:26
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Guns are very much part of your culture but does that mean that it is a good thing? Culture can change and very often should. surely.
We are always hearing about colleges and schools there where someone has murdered loads of kids and shot themselves. if they didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened . Shootings there are rife, and that is terrible and wrong. If there were no guns that wouldnt happen either. of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 02:39:04


Guns are very much part of your culture but does that mean that it is a good thing? Culture can change and very often should. surely.
We are always hearing about colleges and schools there where someone has murdered loads of kids and shot themselves. if they didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened . Shootings there are rife, and that is terrible and wrong. If there were no guns that wouldnt happen either. of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.


Utterly tragic, such liberalism.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bonnie on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 06:19:31
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?

I had a Pastor one time who said he didn't believe God would put him in a situation like that.  Well, he is old and it hasn't happened.  Was it faith or just coincidence?  I never could decide.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 07:57:49


Guns are very much part of your culture but does that mean that it is a good thing? Culture can change and very often should. surely.
We are always hearing about colleges and schools there where someone has murdered loads of kids and shot themselves. if they didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened . Shootings there are rife, and that is terrible and wrong. If there were no guns that wouldnt happen either. of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.


Utterly tragic, such liberalism.

Robert

wow...the first time I have ever been accused of being liberal....is that good or bad I wonder?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 08:08:42
of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.
Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/may/27/health.politics[/url)

Quote
Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 08:26:57
This reminds me of a time we had a trauma patient come into the ER. 
Her story was that she had accidentally stabbed herself with a long kitchen knife while doing the dishes.
The medics said their was blood all over the kitchen.  I didn't believe her story.

If they ban knives, what's next?  Baseball bats, shovels?  I'll have to think back on all the fatal traumas we had and try to remember the weapon involved.  The problem is the typical house is filled with things that can be used as weapons. 
Guns can be used at a greater distance and can be more deadly.


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 08:29:19
Last week I got a call from the NRA. Before the Charlton Heston clone could start his spiel about the importance of gun ownership I told him, "The NRA doesn't want to be calling me." I told him if I had my way there would be no private ownership of hand guns. He asked what I would do if someone broke into my house and I told him I would call the police. "You mean if you had a gun you wouldn't use it to protect yourself?" he asked. I told him I might shoot the intruder in the kneecap but that if I shot and killed him I would be guilty of murder. "I have a son fighting in Iraq and I don't want to think he can't come home and protect himself" he went on. I don't see the connection and I told him I don't think Christians should serve in the military anyway.

The second amendment addresses the issue of state militias, not private ownership of guns. Militias were important to the people when the Constitution was written but law enforcement and the threat from foreign nations has changed in the last 200 years.

Christians get too attached to this life and some are willing to go against the word of God to preserve it. Paul said to die is gain. It is better to be killed and go heaven than to committ murder just so we can spend a few more years on this earth. Did Jesus pull out an Uzi when the soldiers came for him? Did he tell Peter "Cut a few more ears off so I get away?"

Should Christians own guns? If you are a hunter and eat what you kill or if you are a farmer and need a rifle to kill foxes getting into the chicken coop get a gun. If you are a private citizen and want a hand gun to protect yourself, get deadlocks for your doors, keep the number for the police station handy and live so that if today is your last day on earth you can meet your maker with a clean conscious. But don't buy a gun.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 08:35:23
Should Christians own guns?

Only if they want to.

Some have argued that prayer should be our shield and allow God to protect us, with this I agree but, How does God protect you.

Hypothetical:

How many of you would pray for God's protection and safety then deliberately step out into oncoming traffic, jump off a 10 story building or jump head first into a barrel of broken glass and expect God to protect and save you?

God's protection, although supernatural in origin, is not always supernatural in method.

Also this idea of letting others sin so I can be safe is garbage.  If it were a sin for a Christian to carry a gun it is a sin for EVERYONE and that includes police, military and whoever.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 08:54:38
Interesting passage that may give insight...

"If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account."  Exodus 22:2

Nehemiah also called the people working on the wall to self-defense (Nehemiah 4)...

"15 When our enemies heard that it was known to us and that God had frustrated their plan, we all returned to the wall, each to his work. 16 From that day on, half of my servants worked on construction, and half held the spears, shields, bows, and coats of mail. And the leaders stood behind the whole house of Judah, 17 who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. 18 And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me. 19 And I said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “The work is great and widely spread, and we are separated on the wall, far from one another. 20 In the place where you hear the sound of the trumpet, rally to us there. Our God will fight for us.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 09:16:37
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Gary,

You talkin' my ex home, Montana?  Or New Mexico, the 5th largest state in the union?

I agree with you absolutely.

Robert

Montana.

I grew up and was raised in Whitefish, between Whitefish and Kalispell. 10 miles from each on Stillwater Dr, along the Stillwater River.  Winter ranged down near St. Ignatius. Summer ranged over on the Sweet Grass and Red Lodge as well as on the Blackfoot.

I forgot our discussion on this and why I had a sordid memory of the place. But the essence, I cannot deny it, remains within me, still. My adoption of New Mexico about 20 years for a U.S. origin haunt when I am back in country has had the same effect in attachment with no sordid memories.

Did you or do you hunt? 

If so did you go after Whitetail or Elk?

Folks haven't an idea about the American-Rocky Mountain west, understandably.

Robert

I have some property with some views of the Crazy Mt's, the Beartooths, and the Pryors.  I have only seen mule deer on my property.  Although I hear from time to time the elk are out my way,  as well as the mountain lion.  When I was younger, I spent time near Thompson Falls, and Drummond.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 09:19:31
I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Guns are very much part of your culture but does that mean that it is a good thing? Culture can change and very often should. surely.
We are always hearing about colleges and schools there where someone has murdered loads of kids and shot themselves. if they didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened . Shootings there are rife, and that is terrible and wrong. If there were no guns that wouldnt happen either. of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.

You still don't understand our culture at all.  Here, if more law abiding folks have guns, there is less crime.  If respect is taught for guns, things are fine.  My dad's .30-06 rifle was always just setting inside their closet.  His ammunition was in the sock drawer.  I knew not to touch it.  I went out with my dad to shoot at some deer at a very young age.  When I was 5 or 6 I had a pellet gun.



Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 09:51:00
God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ?????
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 10:14:15
God said, "Thou shalt not murder."  There is a difference, or he would not have commanded capital punishment in the LoM.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 10:16:41
God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ?????

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 12:56:19
God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ?????

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.

The OT "Thou shalt not kill" is sometimes translated "Do not murder" and then a discussion ensues about the meaning of "murder.'

People like to use OT scripture to support warfare, executions and packing heat. We are not Jews and we are not under OT law. In OT times it was the nation of Israel against every one else. God spoke to the prophets who passed on his commands. Now we are to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. All nations can come to Christ. God doesn't deliver a message to a prophet to go kill all the Canadians or all the North Koreans. We are to turn the other cheek, pray for those who abuse us and look forward to the time we will be in heaven. There is no place in all of this for shooting people who transgress earthly law. We do as we have been taught in scripture and the bad guys will get what's coming to them in judgment.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 12:59:39
Okay....here's the plan.  You distract him and read to him from John 3:16, I'll go get the 12 guage.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 13:33:47
rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 13:39:15
As to the OT in consideration of principles, consider the following passages of the NT, referring to the writings of the OT:

Quote
1 Cor 10:6-12
6   Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
7   Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
8   We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did-- and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
9   We should not test the Lord, as some of them did-- and were killed by snakes.
10   And do not grumble, as some of them did-- and were killed by the destroying angel.
11   These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
12   So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(NIV)

Quote
2 Tim 3:14-17
14   But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
15   and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16   All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17   so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(NIV)

In both cases the principle is addressed that the OT scriptures are there for our learning, and our learning how to live a faithful life as Christians.  The pre-Pentecost Scriptures were not thrown out with the bath water of the old covenant.  They still teach a great deal about the character of God and the character of His people.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 14:13:18
God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  ?????

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.

The OT "Thou shalt not kill" is sometimes translated "Do not murder" and then a discussion ensues about the meaning of "murder.'

People like to use OT scripture to support warfare, executions and packing heat. We are not Jews and we are not under OT law. In OT times it was the nation of Israel against every one else. God spoke to the prophets who passed on his commands. Now we are to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. All nations can come to Christ. God doesn't deliver a message to a prophet to go kill all the Canadians or all the North Koreans. We are to turn the other cheek, pray for those who abuse us and look forward to the time we will be in heaven. There is no place in all of this for shooting people who transgress earthly law. We do as we have been taught in scripture and the bad guys will get what's coming to them in judgment.
We are under the New Law,.....But that does not dismiss the Old Law....It is there for a reason.
The New Law is applied yes, but the new Laws do not break any of the Old Laws
For example:  The Old Law says "An Eye for an eye"  The New law says turn the other Cheek"
By turning the other cheek we have not broken the Old Law...Only added an amendment..

The Old Law still Applies
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 14:58:02
To Gary and Corbley,

It is so much lost now in the ides of new ageism and a roman indulgence type of begin upon the plain in that folks simply do not understand the real deal, in 80% of the planet.

I see it in all my travels, and the world is very very empty place, contrary to the nonsense demon like mantra of CNN and other media about resources, overcrowding, earth warming, etc etc etc. It is gibberish and it is wrong.

I travel to the far sides of the world. The Earth is adroit at producing banditos, great evil roaming the ethers of our lands and world. I have survived by the law of Jeremiah and Isaiah, and lived to see another day. There is wonder out on the wasteland. And there is great travail.

I have resorted to having to defend my life to the death and have threatened same, and will do so as it is required.

I also often times shoot for my food in places where I have none.  I bled out, butcher, and cook on fire, my food and eat with relish what the Lord provides me.

I am thankful that both of you men understand this and live by the gun, love by the cross.

Hail to you both, fellow warriors upon the plain.

Robert






Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 15:28:43
And the ladies, too, Robert.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 15:58:42
And the ladies, too, Robert.

love,

Sopranette

Yes, dear maiden, yes yes.

I oft times in rescues am reminded of your words above.  I find myself like in Majahual whereby I lost a few teeth in a scruffle with an Australian ex-pat who would not leave a maiden friend of mine alone, and I had to intervene.  I ask him to stop. He hit me and knocked out a bunch of my teeth.  I responded with hitting him in the face with a beer mug.  It occurred in my eatery place of 'Tina's Cantina', in Majahual, where I often repast and have a beer.

The bandito is still in the hospital in Tulum, now, 5 months later, and I wish him well.

But the maiden, Sierra Maja, 23, is fine and afterwards as she and her girlfriend Maria Terrie, was nursing my bloody mouth and face said, "you are wild and a warrior, Robert, but if I had a gun I would have shot him for you and saved your poor face and teeth......."

Maidens, historically, live by the same mantra as my salutation to Gary and Corbley, and your post is confirmation for that, and I do thank you. It surprises me in that this culture here is so bereft of passion and heart it is unusual for a maiden to address such as you have.

Thank you, dearest and my hat is tipped to you and a kiss stolen and put upon your cheek!......

(and I am here in the northwest US for repairs and now have new implant teeth. Good.)

Hail, to you........

Robert








Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 16:25:38
Thanks, Robert. 

I get a little annoyed at the anti-gun people who say we really don't need anything for self defense, because they are already safe.  Well, my question to them is, who, besides God, is protecting you?  The ones who are carrying legally, that's who.  The police, the military, even your next door neighbor is making sure you are safe to go about your daily business.  Especially for women, self defense is something all people should learn and practice.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 17:01:57
True.  Live by the gun, love by the cross


Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 17:57:16
To Gary and Corbley,

It is so much lost now in the ides of new ageism and a roman indulgence type of begin upon the plain in that folks simply do not understand the real deal, in 80% of the planet.

I see it in all my travels, and the world is very very empty place, contrary to the nonsense demon like mantra of CNN and other media about resources, overcrowding, earth warming, etc etc etc. It is gibberish and it is wrong.

I travel to the far sides of the world. The Earth is adroit at producing banditos, great evil roaming the ethers of our lands and world. I have survived by the law of Jeremiah and Isaiah, and lived to see another day. There is wonder out on the wasteland. And there is great travail.

I have resorted to having to defend my life to the death and have threatened same, and will do so as it is required.

I also often times shoot for my food in places where I have none.  I bled out, butcher, and cook on fire, my food and eat with relish what the Lord provides me.

I am thankful that both of you men understand this and live by the gun, love by the cross.

Hail to you both, fellow warriors upon the plain.

Robert

I bet you have some fantastic stories of your travels.....You should write a book...If you haven't already
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 18:38:22



I bet you have some fantastic stories of your travels.....You should write a book...If you haven't already


Well, thanks to Double Day and the fact they own some of my paintings, am doing just that. Preliminary title thus far for drafts and slush pile submission requests by them is:

"Behold The Gold"
The Search for Balboa's Gold, A Grand And Disturbing Adventure

DoubleDay's By-line, off record:

"The true story of Robert A.M. Stephens, from unemployed cowboy out of Montana, to astronaut candidate to be the first artist in space. A true story of one mans journey from a life in rural Montana to traveling and seeking the quest for love and adventure to the far sides of the world and back."

"Seeking gold, treasure, fighting Muslin extremists in Asia, walking through China before it was open to the west, living on the razor's edge in Inner Mongolia and all points on the compass in between. The adventure of a lifetime and as Mr. Stephens says at age 56, ' the voyage is only half over'." 

"Robert A.M. Stephens is the living embodiment of Indiana Jones, wearing his fedora from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', a personal gift from Harrison Ford after the actor bought two of his paintings.  His travels, travails, great personal loss and tragedy, great triumphs against overwhelming odds, and his conviction to never give up, makes for a modern day Don Quixote and Ghengis Kahn mixed into one."

"Stephens fought Conjestive Heart Failure from a scuba diving mishap with NASA and survived, healed then went on to keep diving, adventuring, and still runs with the wind as few men do. A tale of conviction laced with resolve.  The Artist-Archeologist-Adventurer makes his Home in Majahual, Quintana Roo, Yucatan."

bla bla bla........

The tome is due out in 2011, in May, but is in the 'can' as they say before their publicity announcement, and Paramont is discussing the movie rights.

We will see.  Very nice, but just noise in life is all.

But I still want to find Pizarro's and Balboa's Gold........

Robert




Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 19:47:33
of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.
Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought ([url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/may/27/health.politics[/url][/url)

Quote
Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."



people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 19:54:54
[

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

You are in gross error.  Please correct such an inane statement.

The first firearm, a matchlock, over 500 years ago, and 90% of all firearms since, are produced and sold for For Getting Food!.

You are here as a human being, typing away, because of a firearm or many and those men that in brevity used them to stead back the forces of travail and tyranny.

Consider this immutable fact.

Robert



Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 20:27:08
[

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

You are in gross error.  Please correct such an inane statement.

The first firearm, a matchlock, over 500 years ago, and 90% of all firearms since, are produced and sold for For Getting Food!.

You are here as a human being, typing away, because of a firearm or many and those men that in brevity used them to stead back the forces of travail and tyranny.

Robert

 

Robert




We do not need guns we really can live without them you know. they are for killing whether it be humans or animals. your hospital emergency rooms are full of gunshot wound victims, especially in the cities. Countless thousands are shot each year in your cities. apart from in war, they are not needed. we manage without them, why cant you?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 20:31:41
[

people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

You are in gross error.  Please correct such an inane statement.

The first firearm, a matchlock, over 500 years ago, and 90% of all firearms since, are produced and sold for For Getting Food!.

You are here as a human being, typing away, because of a firearm or many and those men that in brevity used them to stead back the forces of travail and tyranny.

Robert

 

Robert




We do not need guns we really can live without them you know. they are for killing whether it be humans or animals. your hospital emergency rooms are full of gunshot wound victims, especially in the cities. Countless thousands are shot each year in your cities. apart from in war, they are not needed. we manage without them, why cant you?

Because the United States is a lot different than the UK. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 20:33:01
Thanks, Robert. 

I get a little annoyed at the anti-gun people who say we really don't need anything for self defense, because they are already safe.  Well, my question to them is, who, besides God, is protecting you?  The ones who are carrying legally, that's who.  The police, the military, even your next door neighbor is making sure you are safe to go about your daily business.  Especially for women, self defense is something all people should learn and practice.

love,

Sopranette

Ever hear "If God is for us who can be against us"? If God is protecting us why do we need anyone else? If you want to live forever you might need some protection but if you are just putting in your time on earth until you receive your reward, don't worry about protecting yourself with a gun.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 20:39:55
Bizarre.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: MegaJedi on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 21:31:23
To ask this question, you should ask the people back in the Time of David, "Should followers of GOD (The CHRISTians before  CHRIST came to earth) if theu should have owned spears.  The answer in my mind (again like you said for protection/selfdefence) is yes.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 21:51:41
Can this be justified by Scripture, or is this just your personal beliefs apart from the Bible?


Yes.


Okay...

The underlying argument for gun control seems to be that the availability of guns causes crime. By extension, the availability of any weapon would have to be viewed as a cause of crime. What does the Bible say about such a view?


No sir, the question was about Christians owning and using guns in self-defense not gun control.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg569959.html#msg569959

Strawman.

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, or at least very close to the beginning -- in Genesis 4. In this chapter we read about the first murder. Cain had offered an unacceptable sacrifice, and Cain was upset that God insisted that he do the right thing. In other words, Cain was peeved that he could not do his own thing.

Cain decided to kill his brother rather than get right with God. There were no guns available, although there may well have been a knife. Whether it was a knife or a rock, the Bible does not say. The point is, the evil in Cain's heart was the cause of the murder, not the availability of the murder weapon.

God's response was not to ban rocks or knives, or whatever, but to banish the murderer. Later (see Genesis 9:5-6) God instituted capital punishment, but said not a word about banning weapons.


Like I said, this discussion was never about gun control.

Exodus 22:2-3 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."


I wonder with your application of Exodus, would you also advocate the practice stoning your children to death for disobedience, gluttony or drinking? (Deu 21:18-21) Or would you agree that homosexuals should be put to death? (Lev 18:22, 29) Or would you support bringing back slavery today? (Exd 21)

If you are going to just cherry pick verses to support your opinion it might be safer to just admit its just your opinion.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 22:02:08
You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 22:35:10
You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 23:57:14
You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?

Chuck,

Here it is.  It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have.

I truly operate by Live by the gun - Love by the cross.

If I can lead the intruder(s) violators to the Lord, like I do with the Marxist Banditos that wish to kill me for a 'toll' when I cross from Honduras into Nicaragua, that is the better plan and mission.

Hope that is more clear cut for you.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 05:06:11
of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.
Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought ([url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/may/27/health.politics[/url][/url)

Quote
Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."



people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

And if the wife had the permission to own a gun, she could have stopped this tragedy.  The news always talks about murders; that's the business they're in.  The news will constantly feed into people's fears. That's what sells. But you almost never hear of murders prevented when the would be victim is armed."A murder was prevented today when the would be assailant confronted an armed citizen".....yawn.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 06:51:41
You're creating a red herring there, Charles.  It's the principle brought up in Ex. not the letter of the law.  The principle is that there is a time when self-defense is justifiable.  No one's advocating stoning, but the principles are still true that adultery, gluttony, drunkenness (they were stoned for drunkenness, not drinking, btw) and homosexuality are sinful, and unacceptable among the people of God.  Are you really open-mindedly asking a question here, or asking for the purpose of shooting down (pun intended) one side of the discussion?

Nothing fishy here, I am seriously asking a question. But I sincerely believe the Scriptural support provided here for shooting someone in self-defense is a stretch when you consider some of the other things right along side the same passages. Besides, wouldn't something from the New Testament be more fitting and seem less like a pretext for a proof text?
No.  Which side of Malachi a passage comes from is not indicative of proof-texting.  Just because a passage is found in, say, Matthew instead of Genesis does not mean it more weight (or is "more fitting") or has greater credibility.  All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness..."
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 07:13:08
of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.
Sure about that?


UK Guardian: Kitchen knife ban sought ([url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/may/27/health.politics[/url][/url)

Quote
Accident and emergency doctors today call for the banning of long, sharp kitchen knives, arguing they account for at least half of all stabbings.

They say such knives slice through clothing and penetrate vital organs.

"Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long, pointed kitchen knife is an easily accessible, potentially lethal weapon, particularly in the domestic setting," say the doctors from the West Middlesex university hospital, London, in the British Medical Journal.

----------

"UK government statistics show that 24% of all 16-year-old boys report carrying knives or other weapons, and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to cause harm.

"Although other weapons - such as baseball bats, screwdrivers and chains - are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives."



people in all countries wiil carry knives whether we also have guns or not. however, knives cannot be stopped because they are not made for killing but for other purposes, Guns, however, are made for one purpose and that is to kill. I am very grateful to live somewhere where guns are not owned or used except by very strict criteria. I have never seen a gun, owned a gun, or ever known anyone who has and the cases of shooting here in the uk are still very rare, so rare that the story would be on the national news if there was a shooting.
I have absulutely no understanding of why anyone would ever want to have or use a gun, except in a war situation where you are fighting an enemy who is evil such as in the two world wars or whatever.

There was a recent tragic case here, where a man who had permission to have a gun (I dont know why, he was very wealthy and probably used it for shooting animals i guess on his large estate) . he had financial problems and shot his wife, his teenage daughter, their three dogs and their three pet horses and then himself . without a gun he couldnt have done this. maybe he still would have killed himself somehow, but the other would be still alive.

And if the wife had the permission to own a gun, she could have stopped this tragedy.  The news always talks about murders; that's the business they're in.  The news will constantly feed into people's fears. That's what sells. But you almost never hear of murders prevented when the would be victim is armed."A murder was prevented today when the would be assailant confronted an armed citizen".....yawn.

love,

Sopranette


She couldnt have stopped this as she was asleep at the time she was shot. Also would she have shot her husband? I wouldnt shoot my husband whatever the reason.
Gun crime breeds more gun crime. One of the reasons why we resist the police bing armed here is bacause everyone knows that  if they were there would be far more shootings and more criminals would arm themselves.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 07:20:09
No, a sword in hand keeps another's in its scabbard.  Legal gun ownership keeps crimes from happening, otherwise only the criminals will be armed.  And if, for some very strange reason my husband were to go beserk and go after our children intending to kill them, I would definitely do everything in my power to stop him.  Maybe you live in the city, with lots of police ready to come at a moment's notice, but out here it can take quite a while.  And there are parts of the US were there is only maybe one cop for every 30 miles or so.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 08:11:04
The answer to C Sloans question is found in the Gospels: A Big Yes, Christians can own weapons for self defense by example!

Quote
Matt 26: Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and arrested him. 51Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place;

Luke 5He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 08:33:41
Chuck,

Here it is.  It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have.

I truly operate by Live by the gun - Love by the cross.

If I can lead the intruder(s) violators to the Lord, like I do with the Marxist Banditos that wish to kill me for a 'toll' when I cross from Honduras into Nicaragua, that is the better plan and mission.

Hope that is more clear cut for you.

Robert

Thanks Robert, I appreciate you explaining your opinions and your reasoning behind it.

But Chuck is my father.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 08:58:25
  Snargles is right. The 2nd ammandment does not provide a right to individuals to own hand guns. As written it is alll about militias, if this point was not true than any gun control legilsation would be unconsititional...but as we know from the Clinton adminstration certain weapons have been banned.

The question here seems basically absurd. Guns are tools of death and Christians should have no part of them. Anyone who disagrees answer this question: is it all right for a chrisitan to own condoms?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 08:59:53
I don't really see a relationship between guns and condoms.

Can you explain?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 09:29:37
  Snargles is right. The 2nd ammandment does not provide a right to individuals to own hand guns. As written it is alll about militias, if this point was not true than any gun control legilsation would be unconsititional...but as we know from the Clinton adminstration certain weapons have been banned.

The question here seems basically absurd. Guns are tools of death and Christians should have no part of them. Anyone who disagrees answer this question: is it all right for a chrisitan to own condoms?

Absurd all right.  I could as easily just say that Christians shouldn't drink Pepsi because the body is a temple of the Lord, and Pepsi isn't profitable for the body of a Christian.

If you believe it is wrong to own a gun, don't.  I know it isn't wrong for me, I need one for protection.  And it isn't even protection from people, but from Mountain Lions, snakes, coyotes, etc.  And potentially for food, if my aim at long distances improves.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 12:20:03
Okay Charles- here is what I am thinking.

Guns are tools of violence and in some cases death. Now if you read some of the response here, from people like Garry, they seem to say "I only use them on animals and for protection...therefore since I don't use them to murder people there is nothing wrong with me owning one. I haven't committed a sin"

So- by comparison condoms are tools of lust and sex. My question is this; is it okay to own a condom if you never use to commit adultery? Is it okay to own porn if you never watch it? Is it okay to buy drugs if you never snort or smoke them?

Possesion is 9/10th of law- my point is how you use these items is irrelevant. The sin is committed at the point of purchase
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 12:25:10
Okay Charles- here is what I am thinking.

Guns are tools of violence and in some cases death. Now if you read some of the response here, from people like Garry, they seem to say "I only use them on animals and for protection...therefore since I don't use them to murder people there is nothing wrong with me owning one. I haven't committed a sin"

So- by comparison condoms are tools of lust and sex. My question is this; is it okay to own a condom if you never use to commit adultery? Is it okay to own porn if you never watch it? Is it okay to buy drugs if you never snort or smoke them?

Possesion is 9/10th of law- my point is how you use these items is irrelevant. The sin is committed at the point of purchase


Condoms are meant to prevent pregnancy.  Your entire argument is fallacious.  There seems to be no biblical basis for your argument.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 12:40:35
in today's world condems are meant for protection. Gee- why does that word sound so familar...oh, that's right because it's the same one you used Gary to describe why you have a gun.

Simple fact of the matter- and the supreme court has backed this up time and time again- there is no consitutional proection for the rightsd of indivdual to have guns
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 12:42:45
in today's world condems are meant for protection. Gee- why does that word sound so familar...oh, that's right because it's the same one you used Gary to describe why you have a gun.

Simple fact of the matter- and the supreme court has backed this up time and time again- there is no consitutional proection for the rightsd of indivdual to have guns

This isn't about what you believe the constitution says.  This is about whether Christians should own guns or not.  In my state, there is a constitutional right for individuals to have guns, and it was a condition of admittance into the union.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Flying To on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:04:12
God has a plan for our lives so what happens will be decided by him anyways.


So whether you live or not is not decided by the weapon you carry.

(as seen with David vs Goliath....God chose David to be the victor).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:05:36
  Well- that leads to an obvious question. In 1986 President Reagan signed a ban on machine guns. Ten years later the 3rd circuit court of appeals upheld the power of congress to limit ownership of certain type of weapons. So- praytell- why is Montana still a state? Are you guys all talk and no action?

Seriously- why our my taxes dollars going to your state- which according to you, because of gun control (some of it more than 20 years old), no longer has a desire to be part of this union.  As i am sure y ou now this country spent three million dollars to study the DNA of bears in Montana....Gary I think you and fellow residents need to give the money back and the follow through and secede.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:09:03
 Well- that leads to an obvious question. In 1986 President Reagan signed a ban on machine guns. Ten years later the 3rd circuit court of appeals upheld the power of congress to limit ownership of certain type of weapons. So- praytell- why is Montana still a state? Are you guys all talk and no action?

Seriously- why our my taxes dollars going to your state- which according to you, because of gun control (some of it more than 20 years old), no longer has a desire to be part of this union.  As i am sure y ou now this country spent three million dollars to study the DNA of bears in Montana....Gary I think you and fellow residents need to give the money back and the follow through and secede.

And again, what does your argument have to do with whether Christians should have guns?  Where is your scriptural argument?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:29:40
I am just following your lead. If your read your post on this thread you will not find one comment by you  based on scripture...NOT ONE ! Instead you argue (on at least three posts) that ownership of guns is a culutral issue.

And that is where you are sadly mistaken.

My mission is refute the notion that guns have anything to do with american culture. There is no basis for your arguement...and if you doubt that- as I have pointed out here- just ask the 3rd circuit court of appeals, the supreme court and even president reagan
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:43:38
Here's one for you.

the anti-gun cooks always scream out the statitics of violent crimes due to illegal hand guns. 
My question is how many violent crimes are commited with legally owned hand guns?

You can bet it's far less han illegal ones.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:45:41
  Snargles is right. The 2nd ammandment does not provide a right to individuals to own hand guns. As written it is alll about militias, if this point was not true than any gun control legilsation would be unconsititional...but as we know from the Clinton adminstration certain weapons have been banned.

The question here seems basically absurd. Guns are tools of death and Christians should have no part of them. Anyone who disagrees answer this question: is it all right for a chrisitan to own condoms?
The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you both.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91913260
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 13:47:24
Here's one for you.

the anti-gun cooks always scream out the statitics of violent crimes due to illegal hand guns. 
My question is how many violent crimes are commited with legally owned hand guns?

You can bet it's far less han illegal ones.

More importantly, how many crimes have been prevented by legal gun owners?  That rarely makes the news.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 14:13:38
Should Christians own guns?

Only if they want to.

Some have argued that prayer should be our shield and allow God to protect us, with this I agree but, How does God protect you.

Hypothetical:

How many of you would pray for God's protection and safety then deliberately step out into oncoming traffic, jump off a 10 story building or jump head first into a barrel of broken glass and expect God to protect and save you?

God's protection, although supernatural in origin, is not always supernatural in method.

Also this idea of letting others sin so I can be safe is garbage.  If it were a sin for a Christian to carry a gun it is a sin for EVERYONE and that includes police, military and whoever.



Christians should not own guns for the same reason they should not take antibiotics or use a seat belt.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 14:41:19
  Snargles is right. The 2nd ammandment does not provide a right to individuals to own hand guns. As written it is alll about militias, if this point was not true than any gun control legilsation would be unconsititional...but as we know from the Clinton adminstration certain weapons have been banned.

The question here seems basically absurd. Guns are tools of death and Christians should have no part of them. Anyone who disagrees answer this question: is it all right for a chrisitan to own condoms?
The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you both.

[url]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91913260[/url]


Obviously I have a better understanding of history than does the Supreme Court. Maybe Barack should appoint me to the court.

I have no problem with owning guns to kill varmits or to put food on the table. Back a few pages I think the point of this thread was clarified to mean should we own guns to protect ourselves by killing allgeged threats.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:25:48
No, a sword in hand keeps another's in its scabbard.  Legal gun ownership keeps crimes from happening, otherwise only the criminals will be armed.  And if, for some very strange reason my husband were to go beserk and go after our children intending to kill them, I would definitely do everything in my power to stop him.  Maybe you live in the city, with lots of police ready to come at a moment's notice, but out here it can take quite a while.  And there are parts of the US were there is only maybe one cop for every 30 miles or so.

love,

Sopranette

Wow.  Wow.  Wow.

Hail to you maiden,

Wow.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:32:13
Chuck,

Here it is.  It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have.

I truly operate by Live by the gun - Love by the cross.

If I can lead the intruder(s) violators to the Lord, like I do with the Marxist Banditos that wish to kill me for a 'toll' when I cross from Honduras into Nicaragua, that is the better plan and mission.

Hope that is more clear cut for you.

Robert

Thanks Robert, I appreciate you explaining your opinions and your reasoning behind it.

But Chuck is my father.

Hee, hee, Hail, your daddy then.

Charles,


I had to answer as you ask the direct question and it is best I could formulate for truth. I truly try in ernest to win over those guys down on the Honduran border, but I have failed on several times and depending on how much cocaine they have in their minds, depends on how the outcome is. 

If it decays where I cannot get out of it with the Bic-Lighter-Over- The-Gas-Cans deal on the back of VEX, then trouble ensues. Afterwards, I truly look upon the offal of despair and say to my self in thankful prayer, "let God sort it out, He will know his own...."

I wish to live another day and RAMS don't do 'tolls'.

Thank you for your response, Charles.

Robert




Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:35:04
 Well- that leads to an obvious question. In 1986 President Reagan signed a ban on machine guns. Ten years later the 3rd circuit court of appeals upheld the power of congress to limit ownership of certain type of weapons. So- praytell- why is Montana still a state? Are you guys all talk and no action?

Seriously- why our my taxes dollars going to your state- which according to you, because of gun control (some of it more than 20 years old), no longer has a desire to be part of this union.  As i am sure y ou now this country spent three million dollars to study the DNA of bears in Montana....Gary I think you and fellow residents need to give the money back and the follow through and secede.

My home sate of origins in life, Montana,  and now New Mexico and Mexico the country, at many times, Montana and New Mexico wishes to recede from this union.

A good idea.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:41:00
   Gary asked for scripture against guns- obviously there is none of that is the bible predates guns, but there certainly is are passages about violence

' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

That's seems drastically differenent then  "It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have."

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:49:24
in today's world condems are meant for protection. Gee- why does that word sound so familar...oh, that's right because it's the same one you used Gary to describe why you have a gun.

Simple fact of the matter- and the supreme court has backed this up time and time again- there is no consitutional proection for the rightsd of indivdual to have guns

The right of the individual to have and bear firearms - 2nd Amendment.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: spurly on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:51:11
The question which began this thread isn't the right question.  The question is why would a Christian own a gun.  There are many reasons why they would own guns.  However, if the only reason they want to possess a firearm is to commit murder or to injure others, then of course they should cut off their right to own a gun.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:53:40
I am just following your lead. If your read your post on this thread you will not find one comment by you  based on scripture...NOT ONE ! Instead you argue (on at least three posts) that ownership of guns is a culutral issue.

And that is where you are sadly mistaken.

My mission is refute the notion that guns have anything to do with american culture. There is no basis for your arguement...and if you doubt that- as I have pointed out here- just ask the 3rd circuit court of appeals, the supreme court and even president reagan

Your bizarre revisionist history of fact defies logic, but is quite inherent in the nation now that stands for nothing, tolerates everything.

It is you that is grossly mistaken. Please consult the biblical data on defense, matasa, and then read the numerous accounts under law and under Grace whereby persona defense is a given.

Then, consult the fact you are free to pound that keyboard and you are not under duress of death for doing so, since you are free. Guns made it so.

Live by the gun, love by the Cross

Not subject to debate.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 16:58:23



Christians should not own guns for the same reason they should not take antibiotics or use a seat belt.


Awesome comeback.  Salute.

Or,  not having a firearm in one's possession is like not going deer hunting without your accordion - General Norman Swartzkopf, on why we did not bother asking the French to join in the coalition against Iraq.......

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 17:10:40
   Gary asked for scripture against guns- obviously there is none of that is the bible predates guns, but there certainly is are passages about violence

' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

That's seems drastically differenent then  "It is strictly my own self preservating  opinion and conviction that I will absolutely shoot and I will absolutely kill a physical transgressor against my person and being if there is no other way out of it.  And I have."



Incredible.

A little slap on the cheek, is far far different than a .375 British Nitro Express ground into your forehead by some whacko Marxist ripped on cocaine, demanding with death to pay a 'toll' on a public road, with the resulting "turn the other cheek crap"  if you do not comply, with your head a pink foamy mist in the  air.........

I don't do 'tolls', banditos, or otherwise and will kill to protect myself in life.

If some super toughy-roughy naughty boy with harsh language wants to  'slap my little cheek', Christ, have at it, if that is the worst he can do. Been beat up on worse anyway and lost teeth over it.

It is the way it is.  Write that in bold and deal with it.

Robert




Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Flying To on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 20:26:02
I'm glad I live in Canada.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 23:21:35
I'm glad I live in Canada.

Hey, Candians are proof Indians did mate with raccoons.

I'm so sorry, I saw that written on a restroom wall in Billings, MT and laughed so hard.  There was this Canadian trucker there also and I told him to look at it, and he read it and just howled.  He said, "You yanks are psychos....."  We both laughed hard and agreed.  I told him, "at least were not 'frostbacks", the slang for Canadians in Montana and the Dakotas.

Oh well.

However, still holds, as an aside, "live by the gun, love by the cross."

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 23:25:01
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
    —Matthew 26:52, King James Version
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 23:42:38
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
    —Matthew 26:52, King James Version


Amen.  That is what I tell the Banditos that are pointing their weapons in my face on a public road:  "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."—Matthew 26:52, King James Version.

Gotcha.

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: kensington on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 01:05:02
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?

I've not read all of this, but I stopped here to answer... Yes.

Men from the old testament days on have protected their family.  Thou shall not kill is for "intended murder"... to go out and choose to take the life of someone else. 

Read in the Bible and you will see that when someone attacked or came to harm, they not only defended themselves, they went back out and hunted them down and took their lands and cattle and everything.

I do not advocate that, but if someone believes they are to be the protector of their home, then by all means, they should be.  It's no different than someone in the military being trained to defend the country or the post, or even the ship.  When my husband is the officer of the watch, he carries a loaded weapon, and he is expected to be the defense between someone boarding that ship to do harm and the safety of his men.

It's no different for your home.  I would suggest being trained with said weapon, having a license, and keeping your qualifacations up to date also. No wise man would get a weapon to keep without being able to use it and have someone take it from him and use it on him or his family. 

But, yes...  if someone is threatening the safety of your home, your family or you... you have a right to shoot them. 

The Bible says that "But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house." Mark 3:37.  Why is that?  Because the man of the house will fight them, and stop them.  So be wise, be alert, and the one who stands between your families safety and their harm. Stand that line, by all means. God Bless.

Would I?  Yes, I know I would.  I'm from the hood.  I have stayed awake many a night knowing I was the last defense between the world outside and my children.  Its' been something I wrestled with time and time again... and then I knew.  I would.  The alternative would be to just "ALLOW" someone to come in, bind me, harm my kids or even kill them.  I could not. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jonah135588 on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 03:16:26


With that said, should Christians own guns?

Yes (IMO).

You didn't see Yahweh sending off the Israelites to war without swords, right?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 07:53:42
Rams- in the eyes of God there is no difference between a slap on the cheek and someone pointing a gun in your face. How does that passage start off; "do not resist an evil person." What does resist mean; fight back.

Christ is telling you: Do not fight back.

Now what is really amazing to me is that anyone on this board would use Mathew 26:52 as an arguement for guns...in fact it's a clear cut arguement against guns and specfically against using guns for protection.

The context- and try as you might you cannot take it out of context- is one of an invasion- not unlike someone breaking into your home. Here comes Judas with the army- which under 25:47 clearly says the army has its swords drawn. "47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs" Not unlike an armed robber.

So what does Peter do- he pulls out a sword- just like a homeowner running for his gun. And Christ publically rebukes him. Telling him not to fight back- that violence breads more violence; "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword"

But don't stop there. On the next line of scripture- Jesus tells Peter where his faith should invested,---not in guns but in God. VS 53 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

In the eyes of Christ you can only live by the cross- living by the gun is not an option- not a Christian option anyway. To even buy a gun is to not have faith in God's plan


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimmy on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:02:58
Rams- in the eyes of God there is no difference between a slap on the cheek and someone pointing a gun in your face. How does that passage start off; "do not resist an evil person." What does resist mean; fight back.

Christ is telling you: Do not fight back.

Now what is really amazing to me is that anyone on this board would use Mathew 26:52 as an arguement for guns...in fact it's a clear cut arguement against guns and specfically against using guns for protection.

The context- and try as you might you cannot take it out of context- is one of an invasion- not unlike someone breaking into your home. Here comes Judas with the army- which under 25:47 clearly says the army has its swords drawn. "47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs" Not unlike an armed robber.

So what does Peter do- he pulls out a sword- just like a homeowner running for his gun. And Christ publically rebukes him. Telling him not to fight back- that violence breads more violence; "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword"

But don't stop there. On the next line of scripture- Jesus tells Peter where his faith should invested,---not in guns but in God. VS 53 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

In the eyes of Christ you can only live by the cross- living by the gun is not an option- not a Christian option anyway. To even buy a gun is to not have faith in God's plan

If what you say is true, then Jesus failed Peter by even permitting him to have a sword.  But of course that is not true and what you have said is not true either.  Your argument fails.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:24:34
   Jimmy it's not what I say- it's what the Bible says.

   Here is the real question if Jesus was alive today would he pull out a gun on anyone?  What he did in the 26th chapter of Mathew answers that question. Turn the other cheek is far different from "cap them."
 
Rams wrote-in his post at 5:10 yesterday afternoon: "with the resulting "turn the other cheek crap""

Crap? Really?

As for me- I don't anything Christ said is crap.  I'll invest my faith in him and in scripture. If you want to put your faith in smith and wesson- feel free
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:36:10
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
    —Matthew 26:52, King James Version


 A little context please!

The context concerns those who would take up arms to FORCE religious views.  Notice WHY Peter drew his sword, it was to force others to accept Jesus on his (Peters) terms.  This text is simply a condemnation of "Holy Wars", crusades and other such nonsense.  Nothing to do with self defense or protection.  Also, did you notice,  the apostle Peter owned a sword.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimmy on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:37:44
   Jimmy it's not what I say- it's what the Bible says.

   Here is the real question if Jesus was alive today would he pull out a gun on anyone?  What he did in the 26th chapter of Mathew answers that question. Turn the other cheek is far different from "cap them."
 
Rams wrote-in his post at 5:10 yesterday afternoon: "with the resulting "turn the other cheek crap""

Crap? Really?

As for me- I don't anything Christ said is crap.  I'll invest my faith in him and in scripture. If you want to put your faith in smith and wesson- feel free

All of the examples that you give, including the "turn the other cheek" are not life threatening events.  They do not at all say anything about defense of yourself or a loved one.

Would you offer your daughter to the rapist once the rapist had finished with your wife (which you stood idly by and watched)?  I would hope not, and yet that is exactly the argument that you are making.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:49:31
Anchorman,

It always leaves me in wonder how people who have never seen anything remotely close to a weapon pointed at their face, any weapon held by those who are intent to kill you, or at least, do great harm, and then stand there and try and apply what you intone, as do so many others.

They really think they can, and somehow they think this is Godly..........., biblical or both.

In fact, the more isolated one is from any sort of harm, like you, here in the US or Canada or wherever, the more draconian that stance is to be so passive by boast,  and so wrong on the whole Biblical premise of self defense.

May I come there and point my 12 gauge sawed off shotgun at your cheek?  See how you do. Of course, in that scenario, like sometimes where and how I find myself, if I "slap" you with it, there is nothing but a pink, purple, and very bloody writhing, jerking, offal dripping stump left so there is no 'cheek' to turn, now is there.

Amazing revisionism.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 08:53:50
 
 If someone was harming my child- I want to kill them...and that's why I don't own gun, because I don't want that as an option.

Read the 26th chapter- he is telling us instead of arming ourselves- turn to his father in prayer. God will either provide a way out- and if he doesn't than what happens is his will.

Now as for the gentlemen who says what happens with the sword is really about Holy Wars- I don;t even know where to begin on this. But the proof that  your wrong comes a few lines later in that chapter where you see all the apostles flee in protection. The sword was self defense- not just defense of Jesus- the fact they ran away proves they were interested in survival...and yet Christ told them to put their faith in God
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:06:47
It's a strange idea that "not owning a gun" would actually prevent a person from killing someone else.  A gun simply makes killing more expedient it doesn't prevent it.  Believe me if person "A" really wanted to kill person "B" do you think the lack of a gun would prevent that?  Of course if person "B" had a gun he could prevent person "A" from killing him.  But that makes too much sense.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:10:24
Answer my post on the bottom of page 7, Anchorman.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:18:52
Actually- Rams you don't know who you are taking.

As a journalist I have- on two occasions- had a weapon pointed at me. In one case, back in 1994 when I was a producer- (and I know from your previous post that you will remember this) I was with a crew that traved to Chiapas to interview Subcomandante Marcos- who was the leader of a revelountary group called the Zapatistas. We were surronded- not just by machine guns- but by young kids holding machines guns.  

There were times when I was really scared for my life, but I never wished that I was armed. All though- I did wonder why I wasn't paid more.

Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer. You may think that turning the other cheek is crap- I think it is the way of the Lord
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:50:45
It's a strange idea that "not owning a gun" would actually prevent a person from killing someone else.  A gun simply makes killing more expedient it doesn't prevent it.  Believe me if person "A" really wanted to kill person "B" do you think the lack of a gun would prevent that?  Of course if person "B" had a gun he could prevent person "A" from killing him.  But that makes too much sense.

The idea is that by the time you go to Honest Sam's Used Gun Store and purchase your piece you will have calmed down and realized that it is better to sue the other guy for $100000 than just shoot him and go to jail.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:52:30

Anchorman,

It always leaves me in wonder how people who have never seen anything remotely close to a weapon pointed at their face, any weapon held by those who are intent to kill you, or at least, do great harm, and then stand there and try and apply what you intone, as do so many others.

They really think they can, and somehow they think this is Godly..........., biblical or both.

In fact, the more isolated one is from any sort of harm, like you, here in the US or Canada or wherever, the more draconian that stance is to be so passive by boast,  and so wrong on the whole Biblical premise of self defense.

May I come there and point my 12 gauge sawed off shotgun at your cheek?  See how you do. Of course, in that scenario, like sometimes where and how I find myself, if I "slap" you with it, there is nothing but a pink, purple, and very bloody writhing, jerking, offal dripping stump left so there is no 'cheek' to turn, now is there.

Amazing revisionism.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 09:54:42

 If someone was harming my child- I want to kill them...and that's why I don't own gun, because I don't want that as an option.

Read the 26th chapter- he is telling us instead of arming ourselves- turn to his father in prayer. God will either provide a way out- and if he doesn't than what happens is his will.



Excerpted:

Then, it is safe to infer there is a way out. And that could very well be one being armed......

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 10:05:31
Actually- Rams you don't know who you are taking.

As a journalist I have- on two occasions- had a weapon pointed at me. In one case, back in 1994 when I was a producer- (and I know from your previous post that you will remember this) I was with a crew that traved to Chiapas to interview Subcomandante Marcos- who was the leader of a revelountary group called the Zapatistas. We were surronded- not just by machine guns- but by young kids holding machines guns.  

There were times when I was really scared for my life, but I never wished that I was armed. All though- I did wonder why I wasn't paid more.

Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer. You may think that turning the other cheek is crap- I think it is the way of the Lord

Then you know what I speak.  And I laughed so hard at your statement above, "Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer", as it is so amazing.

ANSWER:  No, he would not. Since he is GOD in the flesh, he would kill all the people on Earth by water in the flood and save 6, then tell them, I'll do it again, watch the fire next time.

Such silliness.

And lo, how possible could I "know who you are"?

And your tale, as a journalist, yes, I know exactly what you were seeing and doing and feeling, and it was not your time as the Lord protected you, perhaps as a journalist, with maybe numbers and not you just by yourself.  Who knows, but the Lord does.  You came out on the other side with no harm.

I will say if I had been there and someone would have started shooting, as a fellow American, I would grabbed a weapon, tackled you, held you down with me as protection and started "shootin' and lootin'" till it was over, then introduce myself to you and ask,  "You okay, partner......?"

Then, we would have discovered we were both in Jesus Christ.  Would you then say, "you shot all those people and saved me......You are a murderer and filled with hateful sin......."

Consider?

Robert




Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 12:52:40
What would Jesus do?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Should a Christian own a Sword?  A sword was created for the very same purpose as a gun.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 12:57:49
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
    —Matthew 26:52, King James Version


 A little context please!

The context concerns those who would take up arms to FORCE religious views.  Notice WHY Peter drew his sword, it was to force others to accept Jesus on his (Peters) terms.  This text is simply a condemnation of "Holy Wars", crusades and other such nonsense.  Nothing to do with self defense or protection.  Also, did you notice,  the apostle Peter owned a sword.

It wasn't to force anyone to accept Jesus, it was to prevent Jesus from being captured.

What would Jesus do?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Should a Christian own a Sword?  A sword was created for the very same purpose as a gun.

I don't believe Luke 22:36 is a Christian call to arms.

If so why are the Apostles and disciples getting martyred without a fight?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:08:12
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
    —Matthew 26:52, King James Version


 A little context please!

The context concerns those who would take up arms to FORCE religious views.  Notice WHY Peter drew his sword, it was to force others to accept Jesus on his (Peters) terms.  This text is simply a condemnation of "Holy Wars", crusades and other such nonsense.  Nothing to do with self defense or protection.  Also, did you notice,  the apostle Peter owned a sword.

It wasn't to force anyone to accept Jesus, it was to prevent Jesus from being captured.

What would Jesus do?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Should a Christian own a Sword?  A sword was created for the very same purpose as a gun.

I don't believe Luke 22:36 is a Christian call to arms.

If so why are the Apostles and disciples getting martyred without a fight?

Whoa!  What is this crap about "call to arms"?  Those are your words not mine.  Talk about twisting and distorting. 

The question was "Should Christians own guns?"
Not
"Should idiots go on a shooting rampage?" 
 Get the facts straight!

Second let's look at Jesus again.

Since Jesus called people vipers and white washed tombs and chased the money changers in the temple  with a whip  I guess he didn’t practice what he preached about turning the other cheek.

Can a Christian own a whip?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:20:34
No reason to get caustic because I disagree with you or used a poor choice of words.

But the question still remains, if Christians are allowed to use swords or weapons in self-defense why do we see so many Christians getting murdered for their faith in the New Testament without a fight?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:24:44
Perhaps because they were murdered for their refussal to deny Him.  Not in protecting their families etc.?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:28:58
Perhaps because they were murdered for their refussal to deny Him.  Not in protecting their families etc.?

I wasn't really asking why they were murdered, since that is a subject of little debate. But the question is why didn't the disciples ever put of a fight when faced with death, why does Paul constantly get beaten, stoned, imprisoned, harassed, etc. without defending himself with a weapon or even any resistance?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:29:15
No reason to get caustic because I disagree with you or used a poor choice of words.

But the question still remains, if Christians are allowed to use swords or weapons in self-defense why do we see so many Christians getting murdered for their faith in the New Testament without a fight?

Hilarious..........
JB did not get "caustic" at all.  He answered your question perfectly and it still remains as does my comments to you also that you have not addressed yet or had time to, on pages 7,8 and above.

Charles,  come on friend, clear the mind some.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:31:39
No reason to get caustic because I disagree with you or used a poor choice of words.

But the question still remains, if Christians are allowed to use swords or weapons in self-defense why do we see so many Christians getting murdered for their faith in the New Testament without a fight?

Hilarious..........
JB did not get "caustic" at all.  He answered your question perfectly and it still remains as does my comments to you also that you have not addressed yet or had time to, on pages 7,8 and above.

Charles,  come on friend, clear the mind some.

Robert

He said I was twisting a distorting, that was unnecessary.

But what comments addressed to me did I over look?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:32:17
Charles,

I, nor you, and or anyone here or alive is either Paul, Jesus, or Isaiah of Jeremiah, etc.

We are human, first, then saved by Grace.

We will and do kill at the sake of war, defense or defeating the ides of darkness, roaming the wasteland, to then witness, love and live another day.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:33:40
Charles,

I, nor you, and or anyone here or alive is either Paul, Jesus, or Isaiah of Jeremiah, etc.

We are human, first, then saved by Grace.

We will and do kill at the sake of war, defense or defeating the ides of darkness, roaming the wasteland, to then witness, love and live another day.

Robert

We are called to live our lives as they did, in obedience to the Gospel and the Word of God.

Just claiming we are not them isn't a defensible argument.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:35:20
Actually- Rams you don't know who you are taking.

As a journalist I have- on two occasions- had a weapon pointed at me. In one case, back in 1994 when I was a producer- (and I know from your previous post that you will remember this) I was with a crew that traved to Chiapas to interview Subcomandante Marcos- who was the leader of a revelountary group called the Zapatistas. We were surronded- not just by machine guns- but by young kids holding machines guns.  

There were times when I was really scared for my life, but I never wished that I was armed. All though- I did wonder why I wasn't paid more.

Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer. You may think that turning the other cheek is crap- I think it is the way of the Lord

Then you know what I speak.  And I laughed so hard at your statement above, "Would Christ carry a gun or would he turn to prayer", as it is so amazing.

ANSWER:  No, he would not. Since he is GOD in the flesh, he would kill all the people on Earth by water in the flood and save 6, then tell them, I'll do it again, watch the fire next time.

Such silliness.

And lo, how possible could I "know who you are"?

And your tale, as a journalist, yes, I know exactly what you were seeing and doing and feeling, and it was not your time as the Lord protected you, perhaps as a journalist, with maybe numbers and not you just by yourself.  Who knows, but the Lord does.  You came out on the other side with no harm.

I will say if I had been there and someone would have started shooting, as a fellow American, I would grabbed a weapon, tackled you, held you down with me as protection and started "shootin' and lootin'" till it was over, then introduce myself to you and ask,  "You okay, partner......?"

Then, we would have discovered we were both in Jesus Christ.  Would you then say, "you shot all those people and saved me......You are a murderer and filled with hateful sin......."

Consider?

Robert



=========================

Charles,

This one here above I have re-posted, mostly.  And Anchorman's initial post also, in retort to me.

I am intrigued for you to address this as you see things.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:40:57
I'm sorry Robert, I just don't understand what you are saying.  Its okay to kill people for the greater good? That just doesn't line up with Scripture or with the example of Christ from my understanding.

I'm sorry I don't have more to say.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:44:48
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 13:45:37
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: kensington on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:34:18
You guys are twisting the word for the sake of argument....  Charles I did give you a scripture ... Mark 3:37

And there is a BIG difference in being martyred for the Kingdom and the WORD of God, than defending the innocent lives of your children in your home.

IF you are preaching the gospel, and someone takes hold of you and kills you for doing that, you have no reason to fight, you have done well.  As the apostles did.

If you are in your home, and someone is breaking in to rob you, rape your wife or even your child, and you shoot them, you have not done anything wrong.
MARK 3:37 

They are different.  Really.   But, of course... continue the pee contest.... as you were.  ::rolling::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:40:25
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.

Have you found any compelling argument from scripture against owning them?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:45:05
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.

Have you found any compelling argument from scripture against owning them?

Numerous, and repeatedly throughout this thread.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 14:48:05
You guys are twisting the word for the sake of argument....  Charles I did give you a scripture ... Mark 3:37

And there is a BIG difference in being martyred for the Kingdom and the WORD of God, than defending the innocent lives of your children in your home.

IF you are preaching the gospel, and someone takes hold of you and kills you for doing that, you have no reason to fight, you have done well.  As the apostles did.

If you are in your home, and someone is breaking in to rob you, rape your wife or even your child, and you shoot them, you have not done anything wrong.
MARK 3:37 

They are different.  Really.   But, of course... continue the pee contest.... as you were.  ::rolling::

Honey, the verse is Mark 3:27 and Jesus is speaking in parable about demonic possession.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:02:15
Should Christians own guns, Charles?

Robert

I have yet to see a compelling argument from Scripture.

Have you found any compelling argument from scripture against owning them?

Numerous, and repeatedly throughout this thread.

I haven't seen one.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:09:25
  Charles- since it was your question that started this thread- I just wanted to say that I am proud of you.

You have a new baby at home and as a good father you want to do everything to protect this precious child. And yet you asked this question (I am guessing here) because protection is not enough- first and foremost you also want to set an example of what a good Christian man looks like.

The courage you've shown on this board far exceeds what those who rush for the comfort of a gun can ever understand
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: anchorman on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:12:47
gary I have been wondering where you have been all day on this issue. Here is my sciputral arguement against using a gun for protection.  I am reposting this from earlier because I want you to way in
____________________________________________ _______________

Rams- in the eyes of God there is no difference between a slap on the cheek and someone pointing a gun in your face. How does that passage start off; "do not resist an evil person." What does resist mean; fight back.

Christ is telling you: Do not fight back.

Now what is really amazing to me is that anyone on this board would use Mathew 26:52 as an arguement for guns...in fact it's a clear cut arguement against guns and specfically against using guns for protection.

The context- and try as you might you cannot take it out of context- is one of an invasion- not unlike someone breaking into your home. Here comes Judas with the army- which under 25:47 clearly says the army has its swords drawn. "47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs" Not unlike an armed robber.

So what does Peter do- he pulls out a sword- just like a homeowner running for his gun. And Christ publically rebukes him. Telling him not to fight back- that violence breads more violence; "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword"

But don't stop there. On the next line of scripture- Jesus tells Peter where his faith should invested,---not in guns but in God. VS 53 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

In the eyes of Christ you can only live by the cross- living by the gun is not an option- not a Christian option anyway. To even buy a gun is to not have faith in God's plan

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:19:07
gary I have been wondering where you have been all day on this issue. Here is my sciputral arguement against using a gun for protection.  I am reposting this from earlier because I want you to way in
____________________________________________ _______________

Rams- in the eyes of God there is no difference between a slap on the cheek and someone pointing a gun in your face. How does that passage start off; "do not resist an evil person." What does resist mean; fight back.

Christ is telling you: Do not fight back.

Now what is really amazing to me is that anyone on this board would use Mathew 26:52 as an arguement for guns...in fact it's a clear cut arguement against guns and specfically against using guns for protection.

The context- and try as you might you cannot take it out of context- is one of an invasion- not unlike someone breaking into your home. Here comes Judas with the army- which under 25:47 clearly says the army has its swords drawn. "47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs" Not unlike an armed robber.

So what does Peter do- he pulls out a sword- just like a homeowner running for his gun. And Christ publically rebukes him. Telling him not to fight back- that violence breads more violence; "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword"

But don't stop there. On the next line of scripture- Jesus tells Peter where his faith should invested,---not in guns but in God. VS 53 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

In the eyes of Christ you can only live by the cross- living by the gun is not an option- not a Christian option anyway. To even buy a gun is to not have faith in God's plan



Still don't see it.  I am not "living by the gun" because I have a .30-06 in my house.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 15:21:33
  Charles- since it was your question that started this thread- I just wanted to say that I am proud of you.

You have a new baby at home and as a good father you want to do everything to protect this precious child. And yet you asked this question (I am guessing here) because protection is not enough- first and foremost you also want to set an example of what a good Christian man looks like.

The courage you've shown on this board far exceeds what those who rush for the comfort of a gun can ever understand



Thanks for your kindness.

That is really what this is all about, but really it isn't enough for people just to tell me its okay to satisfy my convince. I really need to find something in Scripture to support and advocate the use of guns in self-defense. I would rather not think about someone coming in my home and threatening my family, but I don't want that same fear to motivate me to becoming a gun nut.

But what really got me thinking about this was after watching a few of these movies (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?action=viewblog;u=3537;id=214), and realizing that our gun rights are under attack. But again I am torn, just because the radical left is trying to ban guns and the right-wing are trying to protect our rights shouldn't move me one way or the another. I am supposed to be a citizen of a heavenly kingdom where Christ is my king, not some republican or democrat.

So again I don't know, I got alot on my mind with issues addressed in this topic. But one thing is clear, Biblically Christians are hard pressed to support gun use in self-defense.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 16:44:27
An excerpt from: http://www.thirdway.com/peace/?Page=1828|What+Would+Jesus+Do%3F (http://www.thirdway.com/peace/?Page=1828|What+Would+Jesus+Do%3F)  A Mennonite View of the Issue...
Quote
...Perhaps we don’t want to hear what Jesus has to say: “Love your enemies. Do not resist an evildoer. Pray for those who persecute you
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 16:50:29
So, if someone's breaking in or attacking your family, do any of you refuse to call 911 on the basis that it's an expression of a lack of faith, and the fact that the police who come may indeed use lethal force if necessary?

To be consistent with some of the views expressed, you'd have to.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 16:50:56
I would like to see a balanced view that doesn't seem to flippantly dismiss the OT in favor of the NT, or dismiss the NT in favor of the OT.

The "Hebrew Scriptures" are not just for Hebrews, they are our scriptures.  
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 17:02:32
Actually, I have lots of guns in my house.  My FIL was publisher of Sports Afield back in the '50's and '60's.  He had lots of guns.  After a period of time he was transferred to Good Housekeeping as director of advertising.  (Talk about a switch.)  But when he passed on, hubby, who was the only son out of 5 kids, inherited the guns.   

We had some phone line problems a few years back.   The guy from the phone company commented on our "impressive" security system.  Maybe I should learn how to use it.  :)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 17:04:41
  Charles- since it was your question that started this thread- I just wanted to say that I am proud of you.

You have a new baby at home and as a good father you want to do everything to protect this precious child. And yet you asked this question (I am guessing here) because protection is not enough- first and foremost you also want to set an example of what a good Christian man looks like.

The courage you've shown on this board far exceeds what those who rush for the comfort of a gun can ever understand



Thanks for your kindness.

That is really what this is all about, but really it isn't enough for people just to tell me its okay to satisfy my convince. I really need to find something in Scripture to support and advocate the use of guns in self-defense. I would rather not think about someone coming in my home and threatening my family, but I don't want that same fear to motivate me to becoming a gun nut.

But what really got me thinking about this was after watching a few of these movies ([url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?action=viewblog;u=3537;id=214[/url]), and realizing that our gun rights are under attack. But again I am torn, just because the radical left is trying to ban guns and the right-wing are trying to protect our rights shouldn't move me one way or the another. I am supposed to be a citizen of a heavenly kingdom where Christ is my king, not some republican or democrat.

So again I don't know, I got alot on my mind with issues addressed in this topic. But one thing is clear, Biblically Christians are hard pressed to support gun use in self-defense.





I don't have the clearest answer, but it is clear that I could not count on you protecting my life with a gun if the opportunity arose.  Not that you should.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 17:11:05
I would like to see a balanced view that doesn't seem to flippantly dismiss the OT in favor of the NT, or dismiss the NT in favor of the OT.

The "Hebrew Scriptures" are not just for Hebrews, they are our scriptures.  
::amen::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 17:29:26
I would like to see a balanced view that doesn't seem to flippantly dismiss the OT in favor of the NT, or dismiss the NT in favor of the OT.

The "Hebrew Scriptures" are not just for Hebrews, they are our scriptures.  

Okay maybe since you're not CoC you can get away with that argument.

The following is an excerpt from an article written by a former military man:
 http://www.thirdway.com/peace/?Page=2039|Former+Coast+Guard+Officer+Becomes+Pacifist (http://www.thirdway.com/peace/?Page=2039|Former+Coast+Guard+Officer+Becomes+Pacifist)
Quote
My dramatic change of position was caused by a fresh reading of scripture, a closer examination of Jesus' example, a new study of church history and a personal tragedy. 

May a Christian serve in the military?...
There is no evidence of a single Christian soldier, after New Testament times, until about A.D. 170.

As I studied the life and teaching of Jesus, it became clear to me that he taught pacifism. In the Sermon on the Mount, he declared, "Blessed are the peacemakers." He taught us to "turn the other cheek" and "love our enemies." Jesus not only taught nonresistance, he practiced it, even to the point of his own death. John the Apostle proclaims, "Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." This demands radical living. Today, I see Jesus' example of nonresistance as a spiritual discipline that I need to cultivate in my life, similar to other spiritual disciplines, like prayer and fasting.


I can use the same argument as the anti-IM people make.  :)  (I know it's a slightly different topic.)

Also there are lots of things that were done in the OT times that today would be considered barbaric. 
The atheists that visit these forums are often well prepared with a list of them...
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 17:45:54
  Charles- since it was your question that started this thread- I just wanted to say that I am proud of you.

You have a new baby at home and as a good father you want to do everything to protect this precious child. And yet you asked this question (I am guessing here) because protection is not enough- first and foremost you also want to set an example of what a good Christian man looks like.

The courage you've shown on this board far exceeds what those who rush for the comfort of a gun can ever understand



Thanks for your kindness.

That is really what this is all about, but really it isn't enough for people just to tell me its okay to satisfy my convince. I really need to find something in Scripture to support and advocate the use of guns in self-defense. I would rather not think about someone coming in my home and threatening my family, but I don't want that same fear to motivate me to becoming a gun nut.

But what really got me thinking about this was after watching a few of these movies ([url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?action=viewblog;u=3537;id=214[/url]), and realizing that our gun rights are under attack. But again I am torn, just because the radical left is trying to ban guns and the right-wing are trying to protect our rights shouldn't move me one way or the another. I am supposed to be a citizen of a heavenly kingdom where Christ is my king, not some republican or democrat.

So again I don't know, I got alot on my mind with issues addressed in this topic. But one thing is clear, Biblically Christians are hard pressed to support gun use in self-defense.


Charles,

I have to praise you in this sage response, in tender mercy, and great reason, and sound sagacity.  Thank you for this offering for all of us and my hat is tipped.

Very well put as well.

For me, I have lived so long on the razors edge, so far from my home place, and on the far sides of the world, in great travails and great triumphs and leading people to the Lord as well, and for this culture, sadly, I am very much a Boanergez (A Son of Thunder).  I have killed in self defense and will do so again and have killed to protect others as well.

Your post though is also sound in that you have embraced a matter of great dissernment and admitted the VEX two fold; one, now, you have a new life from your loins amongst you and your heart for which you would surely kill to allow that child to live another second. Yet, you also see some soundness in the view, even as wild as my life is, where I traffic.  Thank you.  To, you are vexed that Christians should not defend themselves, which from my view is patently not correct.

I salute you, from my heart.

In good respect,

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Flying To on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 18:43:11


Hey, Candians are proof Indians did mate with raccoons

"at least were not 'frostbacks"

Yep, psychos is right  ::noworries::



Quote
However, still holds, as an aside, "live by the gun, love by the cross.'
I don't even understand what that means....

....a gun is far removed from the cross....




Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 19:19:15
The "Hebrew Scriptures" are not just for Hebrews, they are our scriptures.  
Okay maybe since you're not CoC you can get away with that argument.
You may not know us CoCers as well as you think.  I agree with Gary's statement entirely, for example.
Quote
May a Christian serve in the military?...
There is no evidence of a single Christian soldier, after New Testament times, until about A.D. 170.
Are you serious?  Are you unaware of Cornelius' occupation, and that the NT record does not say he had to quit his job and give up his sword on conversion? 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Flying To on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 19:26:29
To, you are vexed that Christians should not defend themselves, which from my view is patently not correct.

I don't think that's anything he's getting at at all...there are times to defend ourselves...but using something that shouldn't even exist shouldn't be promoted.

I would never want to have anyone dead because I claim I am defending myself...I would want to pray to God that both of us would end up staying alive.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 19:32:06
The "Hebrew Scriptures" are not just for Hebrews, they are our scriptures.  
Okay maybe since you're not CoC you can get away with that argument.
You may not know us CoCers as well as you think.  I agree with Gary's statement entirely, for example.
Quote
May a Christian serve in the military?...
There is no evidence of a single Christian soldier, after New Testament times, until about A.D. 170.
Are you serious?  Are you unaware of Cornelius' occupation, and that the NT record does not say he had to quit his job and give up his sword on conversion? 
Yeah, I knew that about you.  I had to try though.  :)  Good point about Cornelius. I was just quoting something I read.  I hadn't ever run into that statement before today.  I wasn't a raised Mennonite, and I don't agree with them 100%... I just was trying to make a case from their viewpoint, and honestly most of them will tell you that if someone was threatening to use deadly force against them or a loved one, they just might strike back, although I did read that they would feel it was a sin to do so, so they would feel remorseful about it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 20:49:46

I don't think that's anything he's getting at at all...there are times to defend ourselves...but using something that shouldn't even exist shouldn't be promoted.

I would never want to have anyone dead because I claim I am defending myself...I would want to pray to God that both of us would end up staying alive.

You may need to read back a few thread pages.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mac on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 20:51:50
The thing is...I had made an honest mistake.  But had this happened in the US instead of Canada, do you think that I could have been shot and killed that night?  This is a serious question here.  Please give me your honest opinion.

Yes. You could have been shot and/or killed. Sad? Yes. Unavoidable? Yes. But sadly, we live in a day and age where if you take the time to ask, "Hey, are you in this house to cause me harm?", you and your family can be dead. So, if it would have happened, they probably would have been devastated. They would have been charged and probably found guilty of a crime. Anywhere from murder to involuntary manslaughter.

But the bigger question is this; What would you have done if it would have been you in that house in the middle of the night with your wife and kids depending on you to protect them? It isn't as clear cut as you think.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: mikeyjc on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 21:11:15
The thing is...I had made an honest mistake.  But had this happened in the US instead of Canada, do you think that I could have been shot and killed that night?  This is a serious question here.  Please give me your honest opinion.

Yes. You could have been shot and/or killed. Sad? Yes. Unavoidable? Yes. But sadly, we live in a day and age where if you take the time to ask, "Hey, are you in this house to cause me harm?", you and your family can be dead. So, if it would have happened, they probably would have been devastated. They would have been charged and probably found guilty of a crime. Anywhere from murder to involuntary manslaughter.

But the bigger question is this; What would you have done if it would have been you in that house in the middle of the night with your wife and kids depending on you to protect them? It isn't as clear cut as you think.

I don't think that I would want to shoot someone with a gun with the intent to kill.  I do like the idea of tasers though.  But then again, up here some people have died after being tasered by the police.  Scary.

I dunno...but I think that I would feel just a little bit safer if I had a taser--just in case.  But you know what intrigues me about this thread?  It's probably over 1,000 now who have viewed this topic and the reponses are what? 150?  Gun toting Christians--hot topic!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mac on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 21:53:03
I don't think that I would want to shoot someone with a gun with the intent to kill.  I do like the idea of tasers though.  But then again, up here some people have died after being tasered by the police.  Scary.

I may not have the intent to kill, but I would want to stop what is happening. But I can't say that for sure. Let's say that I came home to find some one hurting my wife or my children...I can assure you that I will have no problems in putting an end to it. Whether that be with a gun or with my bare hands. The problem then becomes, "In your anger do not sin". Did I sin, when protecting my wife or children?

The bible also tells us that there is no greater sacrifice than a man who would lay down his life for a friend. So, what do I do? Nothing? I am afraid not. I would stop the assault at all cost. His life, my life, what ever it took. And you know what, my wife and children deserve that from me.

I dunno...but I think that I would feel just a little bit safer if I had a taser--just in case.  But you know what intrigues me about this thread?  It's probably over 1,000 now who have viewed this topic and the reponses are what? 150?  Gun toting Christians--hot topic!

Now, that is funny there...I don't care who you are..That's funny.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 13, 2008 - 23:36:44
I don't think that I would want to shoot someone with a gun with the intent to kill.  I do like the idea of tasers though.  But then again, up here some people have died after being tasered by the police.  Scary.


I may not have the intent to kill, but I would want to stop what is happening. But I can't say that for sure. Let's say that I came home to find some one hurting my wife or my children...I can assure you that I will have no problems in putting an end to it. Whether that be with a gun or with my bare hands. The problem then becomes, "In your anger do not sin". Did I sin, when protecting my wife or children?




Wow, Mac, what a great post. I do so salute you.  On pages 7,8,9 I have disclosed a little bit about scenarios I have found myself in Central America when I must cross into Nicaragua from Honduras and there, banditos, Marxists, ripped on Cocaine threaten to extract a 'toll' on public roads and stop me and want to threaten with death should I not comply.  I have gotten into shoot and loots there with them a few times and death ensued.

It is not often over the last 35 years that I have trafficked south to run into this, but it occurs. Normally the threat of the bic lighter and the gas cans on my Jeep will tone it down to a tolerable impasse.

From my travels all the way down to Terra del Fuego at the end of the world, seldom is there trouble, but I WILL NOT go through Colombia anymore -  choosing to put me and my Jeep and army trailer on a freighter at Panama and come into Caracas VZ, then head south from there.

Suffice to say, I am and have and will defend myself to the death, so that I may live another day, to love and lead others to the Lord.

It is the way of things, in places where men answer to the angels of their lesser calling.

Again, wonderful post of yours and I so thank you for posting your conviction on such.

Robert

(http://www.umanitoba.ca/afs/centralamerica_cbpm/images/map_centralamerica.gif)

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mac on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 01:19:20
Wow, Mac, what a great post. I do so salute you.  On pages 7,8,9 I have disclosed a little bit about scenarios I have found myself in Central America when I must cross into Nicaragua from Honduras and there, banditos, Marxists, ripped on Cocaine threaten to extract a 'toll' on public roads and stop me and want to threaten with death should I not comply.  I have gotten into shoot and loots there with them a few times and death ensued.

It is not often over the last 35 years that I have trafficked south to run into this, but it occurs. Normally the threat of the bic lighter and the gas cans on my Jeep will tone it down to a tolerable impasse.

From my travels all the way down to Terra del Fuego at the end of the world, seldom is there trouble, but I WILL NOT go through Colombia anymore -  choosing to put me and my Jeep and army trailer on a freighter at Panama and come into Caracas VZ, then head south from there.

Suffice to say, I am and have and will defend myself to the death, so that I may live another day, to love and lead others to the Lord.

It is the way of things, in places where men answer to the angels of their lesser calling.

Again, wonderful post of yours and I so thank you for posting your conviction on such.

Robert

Thanks Robert. I read all of this thread and I find it quite amazing that people feel the way they do about guns and self preservation. I really makes you stop and think.

When I read of your "travels", I was very intrigued. I too, thought this would be a good read. So, I was interested when I saw that you were working on a manuscript.

I do have one question though..Do you get the authorities involved after these "run ins" with the Marxist? I have just heard that it is difficult to be treated fairly that deep into Central America. I would be interested in hearing about it.

God Bless,
Mac
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 02:19:17


Thanks Robert. I read all of this thread and I find it quite amazing that people feel the way they do about guns and self preservation. I really makes you stop and think.

When I read of your "travels", I was very intrigued. I too, thought this would be a good read. So, I was interested when I saw that you were working on a manuscript.

I do have one question though..Do you get the authorities involved after these "run ins" with the Marxist? I have just heard that it is difficult to be treated fairly that deep into Central America. I would be interested in hearing about it.

God Bless,
Mac

Yes, I do.  In Colombia, on my last travel through nearly 10 years ago it was awful. In that case I didn't even make it 20km in country before trouble. The FARC was as bad as it is now and it was a shoot and loot with the Colombian army involved as well. It was a disaster and had gotten worse steadily in the 5 years prior. Finally, after that last go around and having to reverse our of Colombia, I never trafficked through there again.

For Honduras into Nicaragua it is different in that if there is a shoot and loot the authorities are summoned on SS Band-CB and they arrive or are nearby and we unpack what happened.  I am fully bilingual so that is very very helpful.  Thereafter, the policia is after these banditos as well so  they tend to be thankful it was resolved as it was.

That is the only area, as mentioned, where this sort of thing happens.  There are other dangerous places but generally I can get out of it with the big lighter trick and some somokes or beer and then discussion on what the issue really is:  They are not banditos, marxists, insurgents, etc, but like all men, men who want work, food and women.  Frustrated men with a loathsome socialist-Catholic based governing power that is dire at best.

Hope that is helful and thank you for your inquiry and good words.

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mac on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 02:44:12
Yes, I do.  In Colombia, on my last travel through nearly 10 years ago it was awful. In that case I didn't even make it 20km in country before trouble. The FARC was as bad as it is now and it was a shoot and loot with the Colombian army involved as well. It was a disaster and had gotten worse steadily in the 5 years prior. Finally, after that last go around and having to reverse our of Colombia, I never trafficked through there again.

For Honduras into Nicaragua it is different in that if there is a shoot and loot the authorities are summoned on SS Band-CB and they arrive or are nearby and we unpack what happened.  I am fully bilingual so that is very very helpful.  Thereafter, the policia is after these banditos as well so  they tend to be thankful it was resolved as it was.

That is the only area, as mentioned, where this sort of thing happens.  There are other dangerous places but generally I can get out of it with the big lighter trick and some somokes or beer and then discussion on what the issue really is:  They are not banditos, marxists, insurgents, etc, but like all men, men who want work, food and women.  Frustrated men with a loathsome socialist-Catholic based governing power that is dire at best.

Hope that is helful and thank you for your inquiry and good words.

Robert

Thanks for the information. I hope it goes to print. I would like to read about it further. Take care.

God Bless,
Mac
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:00:46
Fantastic and I love this sort of exchange. I hope you come back tomorrow if you are heading off to bed. This is very rewarding to me and so glad Lee sent me over here from his other single's site. 

Your input and past post are a joy to review and take in and would wish to know more about you as well.

Post some more and you have a good way of dissent as well, which is refreshing.

How old are you Mac, and how long have you been saved in Christ?

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mac on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:13:04
Fantastic and I love this sort of exchange. I hope you come back tomorrow if you are heading off to bed. This is very rewarding to me and so glad Lee sent me over here from his other single's site. 

Your input and past post are a joy to review and take in and would wish to know more about you as well.

Post some more and you have a good way of dissent as well, which is refreshing.

How old are you Mac, and how long have you been saved in Christ?

Robert

I am 39. I have been saved for 21 years. How about you?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 03:49:51
I am 56. I was saved on May 9th, 1972,  38 years ago, thus my blood birthday and spiritual birthday are the same.  It is easy then so I do not forget either!

I celebrate both annually.

I love your comments, BTW,  to our new guest- Alex.  Well stated.

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:21:07
So can I own a sword?  If a thief breaks in instead of using a gun I can go medieval on him with a sword.  It's not a gun.  How about a baseball bat could I use that?  Maybe I can push him out of a window would that make you feel better?  How about just beating him up?   I can't cast out demons but I can beat the devil out of him.

It is nothing short of circular thinking to equate and inanimate object such as a gun with an intent to go on a shooting rampage. 

Believe it or not a person can own a gun without the motive of blowing peoples heads of on a whim. Yeah you can kill someone with a gun but you can kill a person with just about anything if your creative enough.

If a person has emotionally crossed the line and was intent of killing I doubt that the lack of a gun would be much of a deterrent.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:26:38
I am 56. I was saved on May 9th, 1972,  38 years ago, thus my blood birthday and spiritual birthday are the same.  It is easy then so I do not forget either!

I celebrate both annually.

I love your comments, BTW,  to our new guest- Alex.  Well stated.

Robert



I have read all of the post on this thread; After reading. I still have a question.
Personally, I would use a gun to defend myself, my family or anyone that could not defend themselves. If It were to result in the death of another. I would certainly, be instantly on my knees, begging Gods forgiveness. Which, I know he would forgive me for (Because, I did not want to take a life)

My question though: Goes back to the Garden, when the soldiers, came to seize Christ.
Peter, grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers Right?

How did Peter get that sword? Did he grab it from one of the soldiers or was did he carry it the whole time, while following Christ?   I think this is relevent to this conversation...
Because, if he carried it the whole time, that would mean Christ does allow for us to defend ourselves in any manner required. Even by force....If he stole it from the soldier, then was it Peter's own anger and desire to protect the Lord, that provoked the Attack?

Does anyone know any verses that would, indicate, whether, it was Peter's sword or taken from a soldier?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:31:43
I am 56. I was saved on May 9th, 1972,  38 years ago, thus my blood birthday and spiritual birthday are the same.  It is easy then so I do not forget either!

I celebrate both annually.

I love your comments, BTW,  to our new guest- Alex.  Well stated.

Robert



I have read all of the post on this thread; After reading. I still have a question.
Personally, I would use a gun to defend myself, my family or anyone that could not defend themselves. If It were to result in the death of another. I would certainly, be instantly on my knees, begging Gods forgiveness. Which, I know he would forgive me for (Because, I did not want to take a life)

My question though: Goes back to the Garden, when the soldiers, came to seize Christ.
Peter, grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers Right?

How did Peter get that sword? Did he grab it from one of the soldiers or was did he carry it the whole time, while following Christ?   I think this is relevent to this conversation...
Because, if he carried it the whole time, that would mean Christ does allow for us to defend ourselves in any manner required. Even by force....If he stole it from the soldier, then was it Peter's own anger and desire to protect the Lord, that provoked the Attack?

Does anyone know any verses that would, indicate, whether, it was Peter's sword or taken from a soldier?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:37:07

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

For what purpose did Jesus tell his followers to buy a sword?

A: For decoration
B: He liked bling
C: It brought out the color in their eyes
D: Self defense
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:37:46
No slant in those choices...
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:40:35
I am 56. I was saved on May 9th, 1972,  38 years ago, thus my blood birthday and spiritual birthday are the same.  It is easy then so I do not forget either!

I celebrate both annually.

I love your comments, BTW,  to our new guest- Alex.  Well stated.

Robert



I have read all of the post on this thread; After reading. I still have a question.
Personally, I would use a gun to defend myself, my family or anyone that could not defend themselves. If It were to result in the death of another. I would certainly, be instantly on my knees, begging Gods forgiveness. Which, I know he would forgive me for (Because, I did not want to take a life)

My question though: Goes back to the Garden, when the soldiers, came to seize Christ.
Peter, grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers Right?

How did Peter get that sword? Did he grab it from one of the soldiers or was did he carry it the whole time, while following Christ?   I think this is relevent to this conversation...
Because, if he carried it the whole time, that would mean Christ does allow for us to defend ourselves in any manner required. Even by force....If he stole it from the soldier, then was it Peter's own anger and desire to protect the Lord, that provoked the Attack?

Does anyone know any verses that would, indicate, whether, it was Peter's sword or taken from a soldier?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

So does this mean to say, that all of the Apostles carried swords?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:41:33
Rephrase:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

For what purpose did Jesus tell his followers to buy a sword?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:44:55
I am 56. I was saved on May 9th, 1972,  38 years ago, thus my blood birthday and spiritual birthday are the same.  It is easy then so I do not forget either!

I celebrate both annually.

I love your comments, BTW,  to our new guest- Alex.  Well stated.

Robert



I have read all of the post on this thread; After reading. I still have a question.
Personally, I would use a gun to defend myself, my family or anyone that could not defend themselves. If It were to result in the death of another. I would certainly, be instantly on my knees, begging Gods forgiveness. Which, I know he would forgive me for (Because, I did not want to take a life)

My question though: Goes back to the Garden, when the soldiers, came to seize Christ.
Peter, grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers Right?

How did Peter get that sword? Did he grab it from one of the soldiers or was did he carry it the whole time, while following Christ?   I think this is relevent to this conversation...
Because, if he carried it the whole time, that would mean Christ does allow for us to defend ourselves in any manner required. Even by force....If he stole it from the soldier, then was it Peter's own anger and desire to protect the Lord, that provoked the Attack?

Does anyone know any verses that would, indicate, whether, it was Peter's sword or taken from a soldier?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

So does this mean to say, that all of the Apostles carried swords?

I don't know, I wasn't there.  We do know that Peter had access to a sword though.  And we know what Jesus told them concerning this is Luke 22:36.  The grammar does seem to indicate the idea of choice by using the word  "let" instead of phrasing it in the form of a command.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 11:49:44
I am 56. I was saved on May 9th, 1972,  38 years ago, thus my blood birthday and spiritual birthday are the same.  It is easy then so I do not forget either!

I celebrate both annually.

I love your comments, BTW,  to our new guest- Alex.  Well stated.

Robert



I have read all of the post on this thread; After reading. I still have a question.
Personally, I would use a gun to defend myself, my family or anyone that could not defend themselves. If It were to result in the death of another. I would certainly, be instantly on my knees, begging Gods forgiveness. Which, I know he would forgive me for (Because, I did not want to take a life)

My question though: Goes back to the Garden, when the soldiers, came to seize Christ.
Peter, grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers Right?

How did Peter get that sword? Did he grab it from one of the soldiers or was did he carry it the whole time, while following Christ?   I think this is relevent to this conversation...
Because, if he carried it the whole time, that would mean Christ does allow for us to defend ourselves in any manner required. Even by force....If he stole it from the soldier, then was it Peter's own anger and desire to protect the Lord, that provoked the Attack?

Does anyone know any verses that would, indicate, whether, it was Peter's sword or taken from a soldier?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

So does this mean to say, that all of the Apostles carried swords?

I don't know, I wasn't there.  We do know that Peter had access to a sword though.  And we know what Jesus told them concerning this is Luke 22:36.  What would you conclude?
I guess I would be led to believe, that YES, the Apostles were packing weapons (for self defence, during their travels)
So my next question would be...Was Jesus carrying a weapon? I do not believe, the bible tells us either way.
Based on the scripture you provided Luke 22:36....It would suggest he was.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 13:51:08

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

For what purpose did Jesus tell his followers to buy a sword?

A: For decoration
B: He liked bling
C: It brought out the color in their eyes
D: Self defense

I'm in tears over this post. My heavens, my sort of humor. Hilarious!!!!!!!

I would also add:

E: It goes with their harsh language.

Thank you,

Robert

Thank you,


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 15:37:28
In good conscious I could use a baseball bat to knock out an intruder, a knife to cut his hand off or a gun to shoot him in the leg (I would probably end up shooting myself in the foot); its the killing of another human that I have problems with. Most people who carry guns don't do so with the intention of wounding an attacker, they carry it to kill someone if they think it necessary.

If an attacker comes at me with a gun and I pull out my gun he will think I am trying to kill him first so naturally he will try to kill me. Unless I am willing to take the time to go to target practice and adopt the attitude that killing in self defense is allowed I am better off not even having a gun.

What most surprises me about the posts on this thread is that for a Christian forum we have a lot of posters who think self-preservation and standing up for one's rights are important ideals in our lives.  I thought Christianity was about doing for others and putting up with persecution by the world  knowing that life on earth is short and that better things are waiting for us in heaven.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 15:42:17
In good conscious I could use a baseball bat to knock out an intruder, a knife to cut his hand off or a gun to shoot him in the leg (I would probably end up shooting myself in the foot); its the killing of another human that I have problems with. Most people who carry guns don't do so with the intention of wounding an attacker, they carry it to kill someone if they think it necessary.

If an attacker comes at me with a gun and I pull out my gun he will think I am trying to kill him first so naturally he will try to kill me. Unless I am willing to take the time to go to target practice and adopt the attitude that killing in self defense is allowed I am better off not even having a gun.

What most surprises me about the posts on this thread is that for a Christian forum we have a lot of posters who think self-preservation and standing up for one's rights are important ideals in our lives.  I thought Christianity was about doing for others and putting up with persecution by the world  knowing that life on earth is short and that better things are waiting for us in heaven.
Your not wrong.....However, lets not forget the influence of drugs and a phsycotic state of mind....If a person were to attack you that was under the influence of a drug or phsycotic in any way....They would walk right through your baseball bat.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 16:13:34
My question though: Goes back to the Garden, when the soldiers, came to seize Christ.
Peter, grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers Right?

How did Peter get that sword? Did he grab it from one of the soldiers or was did he carry it the whole time, while following Christ?   I think this is relevent to this conversation...
Because, if he carried it the whole time, that would mean Christ does allow for us to defend ourselves in any manner required. Even by force....If he stole it from the soldier, then was it Peter's own anger and desire to protect the Lord, that provoked the Attack?

Does anyone know any verses that would, indicate, whether, it was Peter's sword or taken from a soldier?

Quote
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant and cut off his right ear.

Quote
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me:  ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 16:32:47
In good conscious I could use a baseball bat to knock out an intruder, a knife to cut his hand off or a gun to shoot him in the leg (I would probably end up shooting myself in the foot); its the killing of another human that I have problems with. Most people who carry guns don't do so with the intention of wounding an attacker, they carry it to kill someone if they think it necessary.

If an attacker comes at me with a gun and I pull out my gun he will think I am trying to kill him first so naturally he will try to kill me. Unless I am willing to take the time to go to target practice and adopt the attitude that killing in self defense is allowed I am better off not even having a gun.

What most surprises me about the posts on this thread is that for a Christian forum we have a lot of posters who think self-preservation and standing up for one's rights are important ideals in our lives.  I thought Christianity was about doing for others and putting up with persecution by the world  knowing that life on earth is short and that better things are waiting for us in heaven.

This is insane.  Please, reread what you just wrote.

If you are other person centric, as I am, and a .300 Winchester Mag is pointed at your face, for real, not boasting on a keyboard here about you turn the other cheek crap,  but for real, you then stop that, or you die. Death is permanent and brings on many changes.

I will not do that in this class. I still have more folks to lead to the Lord.  I cannot do that with my head lying in a ditch.

God help us all..................what logic and what a post.........

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 16:37:30
quote]
From the way it's worded, I'd say the sword Peter used was his.
[/quote]

Maybe he carried a sword to ward off rabid coyotes or to behead chickens for Sunday dinner. A sword could double as a wieny stick. If you are lost in the desert a shiny sword could be used to catch the sun and flash a signal to helicopters looking for you. If you stick a sword in the gound you can use its shadow to tell the time if you know the date or to tell direction if you know the time. You could use it to play mumbledy-peg. It could double as a baton if you are leading the band (but not in a CoC congregation). You can impress the boys by balancing it on one finger. It can be used to get out splinters or cut an X through a snake bite. A sword can be used for big time whittleing.

Im gonna go buy me a sword!  ::idea::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 16:51:40
Quote
This is insane.  Please, reread what you just wrote.

I know it sounds crazy according to what most people think these days but I feel a kinship to old time pacifist Restorationists like Barton Stone and David Lipscomb and in my youth I wanted to be one of those peaceful laid back hippy types but I was too young for that era (I am the same age as you).

Now if you want to talk about about insane, what are you doing going to Central and South America? The drug dealers in Columbia probably take bets on who will be the first one to put a slug in your head. Its easier to avoid guns when you live in a civilized area. My worst threats come from people who want to talk me to death.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 17:08:29
I am 56. I was saved on May 9th, 1972,  38 years ago, thus my blood birthday and spiritual birthday are the same.  It is easy then so I do not forget either!

I celebrate both annually.

I love your comments, BTW,  to our new guest- Alex.  Well stated.

Robert



I have read all of the post on this thread; After reading. I still have a question.
Personally, I would use a gun to defend myself, my family or anyone that could not defend themselves. If It were to result in the death of another. I would certainly, be instantly on my knees, begging Gods forgiveness. Which, I know he would forgive me for (Because, I did not want to take a life)

My question though: Goes back to the Garden, when the soldiers, came to seize Christ.
Peter, grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers Right?

How did Peter get that sword? Did he grab it from one of the soldiers or was did he carry it the whole time, while following Christ?   I think this is relevent to this conversation...
Because, if he carried it the whole time, that would mean Christ does allow for us to defend ourselves in any manner required. Even by force....If he stole it from the soldier, then was it Peter's own anger and desire to protect the Lord, that provoked the Attack?

Does anyone know any verses that would, indicate, whether, it was Peter's sword or taken from a soldier?

Well here is what Jesus said:

Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

So does this mean to say, that all of the Apostles carried swords?

The sword of the Spirit!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 17:24:22
Quote
This is insane.  Please, reread what you just wrote.

I know it sounds crazy according to what most people think these days but I feel a kinship to old time pacifist Restorationists like Barton Stone and David Lipscomb and in my youth I wanted to be one of those peaceful laid back hippy types but I was too young for that era (I am the same age as you).

Now if you want to talk about about insane, what are you doing going to Central and South America? The drug dealers in Columbia probably take bets on who will be the first one to put a slug in your head. Its easier to avoid guns when you live in a civilized area. My worst threats come from people who want to talk me to death.

Whomever you are, and being fair to you, you need to purview back over the last 12 pages as best you can so I do not have to repeat the answer for the 6th time. Your question is totally valid, but please consult the answer, back several pages.

Also, someone here, please speak for me on my behalf so I do not have to sound like a bragging idiot, since this poster, has, in fact, ask a very valid question of me.

Suffice to say, I think if you find out why, it will help my dissent back toward you in good measure and not in any way insulting or truculent towards you.

Thank you,

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 18:21:03
quote]
From the way it's worded, I'd say the sword Peter used was his.

Maybe he carried a sword to ward off rabid coyotes or to behead chickens for Sunday dinner. A sword could double as a wieny stick. If you are lost in the desert a shiny sword could be used to catch the sun and flash a signal to helicopters looking for you. If you stick a sword in the ground you can use its shadow to tell the time if you know the date or to tell direction if you know the time. You could use it to play mumbledy-peg. It could double as a baton if you are leading the band (but not in a CoC congregation). You can impress the boys by balancing it on one finger. It can be used to get out splinters or cut an X through a snake bite. A sword can be used for big time whittleing.

Im gonna go buy me a sword!  ::idea::
[/quote]
From the implications is the verses and The ease at which Peter drew the sword....I am led to believe that. He carried it for protection and not for cutting chickens heads off.

so, based on these passages, I would agree, that God does allow us to protect ourselves. With a sword, a gun, a baseball bat or any means necessary
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 20:42:13
I posted this earlier but it seems to have been disregarded for some reason. 

The answer to C Sloans question is found in the Gospels: A Big Yes, Christians can own weapons for self defense by example!  We are authorized to carry personal protection by the "E" (example) in that hermeneutic we call CENI.  I am no particular lover of the CENI hermeneutic but right here is a prime example of the "E" part of that hermeneutic.

Quote
Matt 26: Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and arrested him. 51Suddenly, one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it, and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place;

A sword was drawn to protect Jesus by oneof his followers.  Jesus stopped him by saying "Put your sword back in its place."  If the action had continued, I believe Jesus knew that the end result would have interfered with his end purpose.  See below John 18:10 ff

Luke 5He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 20:45:42
I would just like to know why the disciples that were murdered didn't put up a fight.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 21:52:18
Wiley, I understand most of what you're saying, but this paragraph sounds more like sophistry than explanation --

Final thoughts:
Those of us who carry for a living are trained that we never, NEVER shoot to kill!  We shoot to stop the action of what is happening.  That is all we do.  We are also taught that when the action stops, we cease fire---IMMEDIATLY!  We are taught to shoot at only two targets (1)  the center of mass (chest) and (2) if the perp is wearing a kevlar vest, we shoot for the head.  These are the two large targets areas that, when hit, will stop the action.  To deliberately shoot to kill would be murder.

Yes, I know that your purpose is to "stop the action," but the expected result of a shot to the head is death. The most likely result of a shot to the chest is death. "Shooting to kill" would be aiming for a spot that, if hit, will likely result in death. Shooting someone in the foot (a poor choice, IMO) would most likely "stop the action" but is unlikely to result in death.

Perhaps you are equating "shooting to kill" with "shooting until you are sure they are dead." Or perhaps I simply don't understand what you are saying.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: kensington on Fri Nov 14, 2008 - 22:25:38
Fantastic and I love this sort of exchange. I hope you come back tomorrow if you are heading off to bed. This is very rewarding to me and so glad Lee sent me over here from his other single's site. 

Your input and past post are a joy to review and take in and would wish to know more about you as well.

Post some more and you have a good way of dissent as well, which is refreshing.

How old are you Mac, and how long have you been saved in Christ?

Robert

I'm 52, I've been saved 28 years...   I got saved in the middle of the Biggest snow storm our state had decades!!  God does things to accomplish His will. Amen?

I am 39. I have been saved for 21 years. How about you?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 06:13:35
Matthew 10:24
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Just sayin'

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 08:00:37
Quote
Yes, I know that your purpose is to "stop the action," but the expected result of a shot to the head is death. The most likely result of a shot to the chest is death. "Shooting to kill" would be aiming for a spot that, if hit, will likely result in death. Shooting someone in the foot (a poor choice, IMO) would most likely "stop the action" but is unlikely to result in death.

Perhaps you are equating "shooting to kill" with "shooting until you are sure they are dead." Or perhaps I simply don't understand what you are saying.


Good questions because the zone of impact in both cases as we are trained is a zone that can produce instant death.  There are two distinct areas here that are in consideration.

1) is the intent to stop the action from occuring or is the intent to purposefully kill the person committing the action?  explanation:  The intent to stop the action is a decision that is made to keep something from happening.  eg:  is the person with the gun, knife, etc about to committ an act that can cause serious bodily injury to yourself or an innocent person (3rd person)?  Will shooting someone in the foot or hand (extremly difficult shots for even the best expert shooters when in an adrenaline situation!) stop that person from committing an act of violence against yourself or an innocent 3rd party?  The fact is simply that type of target (if it can be successfully hit with two attempted shots) will not stop that perpetrator from committing the act he/she has decided to committ.  If the person shooting in defense is an expert shot and can successfully hit one leg/foot or one hand/arm, the perpetrator still has the other hand/arm to hold and aim the gun and a gun shot wound to the other hand/arm will not stop the person from using the weak hand.  I know that from personal experience having taken bullets to both my left hand and right wrist on different occassions.  I am trained to shoot equally well from strong or weak hand, just in case I get wounded in my strong hand. This type of wound does not stop or incapacitate the shooter.  A bullet to the foot or leg will also not incapacitate or stop the shooter, nor will it immediately stop the intended act, even if it hits the main artery in the thigh.  An arterial hit will probably be a fatal wound when they bleed out, but it will not stop the action of the perp.  The only target areas proven to stop the action are the central chest area of the torso of the perp (main target as it is the largest area and easiest to hit) and the head (secondary target area as it is smaller but still larger than any other available target) which is the prime target area if the perp is wearing kevlar protection.

2)  The second consideration in shooting to stop the action of the perp and not shooting to kill is a legal and moral one.  If you shoot someone, whether it is self defense or defense of a 3rd party who the deadly force is directed act by the perp, you will go before a judge and jury.  That is the law in every state in the US.  Each and every shooting is looked at by the legal system.  If you make the statement "Well, he was trying to kill me, so I killed him first, you can be prosecuted at several levels because of the intent to kill which you have displayed.  You made a statement that shows the intent to kill, not to prevent an intended deadly force action.  If you say that you believed your life was endanger when the man pointed his gun at you and you shot to stop him from shooting at you, you have said that you acted in self defense, without premeditated thought/action, and that your only concern was to prptect yourself by stopping the action that was occuring.  You did that by shooting the perp in the center of mass, the easiest target, to stop what he had intended to do to you and you dceased fire as soon as the action stoped.  He died not because of your intended action to kill him but he died because you simply stopped his action against you.  These are considerations that one must make if they are to take the responsibility of owning and using a firearm for selfdefense or defense of others.  If one does take the responsibility for defending one's family or self with a firearm, that person also has to accept that he/she also has the responsibility under the law to defend others who cannot defend themselves.  IOW, if you are licensed and carrying concealed (no license required in at least one state and their violent crime rate is low compared to gun control states!) and you witness a person pull a gun and start to shoot innocent people, you DO have an obligation to try to stop that action, whether the law of that state specifically states it that way or not.  You have the means available to stop the action so you, IMO, are at the minimum, morally bound to help, and legally bound in many states.  As long as you are trying to stop the action, when the action is stopped by your shooting ability or by someone else's, you are oblogated to immedialtely cease fire.  The idea of shoot until they are dead will get you prosecuted and probably jail time! 

There are three decisions to make when pointing a firearm at someone with the intent to stop the action:
1)  Does the perpetrator have the ability to commit or cause serious bodily injury or death
2)  Does the perpetrator have the intent to commit or cause serious bodily injury or death
3)  Are you or an innocent party placed in immediate jeporady by the actions of the perpetrator

Those three decisions have to made in an instant when using deadly force and that is a very seriously responsibility for the firearm owner.  However, the same decisions must be made whether the weapon is a baseball bat, a knife, a bow and arrow, a sling (David's style sling), or whatever weapon you choose.  The weapon (hand gun in this case) is simply a tool to save your life or someone else's.

I train to defend a nuclear plant.  I am, what some would say, EXPERT in shooting ability with a handgun.  That basically means that if I pull my handgun and I point it at a target, whether a live or artificial target, I will instinctivly hit the center of the available target from any range out to 25 yards 98% of the time, without conciously aiming the weapon.   I will never shoot to kill a human being.  Period!  However, if I have to shoot a human being to protect myself, my family, the public from a radioactive release, or innocent person, I intend to shoot for the biggest target available, which is also the most deadly point that a bullet can impact, and I will only shoot to stop the action that is being committed.  If the person dies as a result of trying to commit a heinous crime, that's a consequence of his actions, not mine.  My intent was only to stop the heinous crime from being committed.  I am legally protected as the laws of our state are specific in that regard.  I am also innocent of the intential death of the perpetrator because I do not ever want to purposfully (decision to "shoot to kill") take the life of some one.  That is the where the Bible "thou shalt not commit murder" really comes into play.

Jesus said "there is not greater love found than for someone to lay down their life for another."  That is so true.  He did it for us through willful surrender in order that the over all plan would be completed.  However, the implications of his statement go much farther.  He saved our lives by his willingness to be involved.  As one of those he died for, I am willing to die for my family trying to save their lives.  I am willing to die for my country trying to keep us free, and I am willing to die for an innocent person trying to keep them from being killed or harmed.  However, I don't have the power to come back from the grave to continue to protect those I am trying to protect as Jesus did so I will use the tools at hand and try as best I can to survive because if I don't survive the initial attack, there are others who will also not survive because of that, and a grand daughter who will grow up without a grandfather!  That is why I get perturbed with those who just want to lie down in the face of evil.  Giving up your life as some of the early Christians did under religious persecution to try to get the Good News spread is one thing, needlessly scraficing your life in the face of evil for no gain at all is senseless.

So, I will conclude by stating that Jesus allowed his disciples to carry swords for protection.  God used armies to defend and protect his people and he used people who did that same thing individually to further his plans.  And nowhere does the Bible state we are not allowed to carry weapons for personal protection or protection of others, and, it would seem that the examples of the Bible are just the opposit.  The Bible does not say it is wrong to kill.  It says it is wrong to murder.  Bad translation cause much confussion in many areas of Biblical understanding!

My apologies for being so wordy.
------------------------------------
Robert,

I love your art work and I hope one of these days our paths will cross because we sure think a whole lot alike!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 09:28:27
Wiley, to paraphrase King Agrippa, almost thou persuadest me to carry a gun.
Your arguments are good but so opposed to everything I have believed for 45 years that I have to think about them some more. It might come down to what we are allowed to do versus WWJD. Like Paul said, all things are lawful but all things are not expedient. It sounds sort of post-modern but what is right for you (shooting the perp) might not be right for me (I prefer to run, hide and pray he misses).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 10:21:13
Matthew 10:24
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Just sayin'

love,

Sopranette

Your post is a contextual tragedy. The passage is actually verse 34, but why not at least mention the next two verses:

Mat 10:35-36 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household."


So is Jesus advocating violence against our families?

According to your use of this text that would be very likely.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 11:28:21
Snargles,

Quote
Wiley, to paraphrase King Agrippa, almost thou persuadest me to carry a gun.
Your arguments are good but so opposed to everything I have believed for 45 years that I have to think about them some more.

Well, I'm definitly not advocating everyone own and use firearms, however, I do believe we have done alot of false teaching when we come to the conclusion that, because we are Christians, we cannot protect ourselves and we must lay down and give up our lives if required by the EVIL of this world.  There are people who have absolutely no business having a firearm.  My youngest daughter is one of those people, even though she has been through firearm safety training.  At least you are honestly doing some thinking about what you have believed and been taught on this subject and not just listening to what the anti-gun lobby/groups are spouting, or going by a traditional view of a very narrow view of Scripture regarding this subject.  What HCI types put out alot of the time has nothing to do with the truth but is delibertly edited to fit their views, and that information is now either a half truth or out and out lie.  There are many people who will just jump on anything they say and then yell "See, I told you this was true because anti-gun ownership group(put in your own name of the group ::smile::) said it was like this!  I won't say it is all just them because I have seen some tainted information put out by my side also but it is rare and it would go against what we are working for if we did that type of thing like HCI, and others do.

Teaching this subject with a Biblical perspective has been a problem because of false notions that can creep into what is sound teaching or because a lack of knowledge by the teacher of the historical setting that was being written about by our Holy Spirit inspired writers.

Quote
 It sounds sort of post-modern but what is right for you (shooting the perp) might not be right for me (I prefer to run, hide and pray he misses).

Common sense is the better part of valor!  ::smile::

If a person is not committed to using a firearm, the possibility of taking a life, and the fact that you may also be on the receiving end anyway, you need to run and hide if a gun is pointed at you--IF YOU HAVE TIME!.   However, in real life, most normal, law abiding people who try to run and hide when a firearm is pointed at them are the ones who get shot by the person with the gun. That is a statistical fact that cannot be disputed!  That person who is intent on illegally pointing the firearm at you has already made a mental and actual commitment to use it illegally against you so they are already prepared to shoot and murder you (or loved ones) whether you stand your ground or turn and run.  Turning and running gives them the advantage because they now have the upper hand against your backside!
Naturally, in my job we will stand our ground and we will at every possible point interdict between the terriorist and the plant.  

Under Texas law when the CCL was first passed, we had an obligation to try to back out of a potential situation, if possible, before using a firearm.  Part of our CCL training includes training in conflict resloution.  However, in real life that opportunity very rarily presents itself.  About a year ago, Texas laws were passed and amended concerning concealed firearms.  In our own home, we are now no longer required to be licensed or to try to avoid a confrontation and we are protected under law for the legal self defense of personal property and life when on our own property.  That is sometimes referred to Castle Doctrine.  Also, the law was modified to allow none-CCL licensees the right to keep a loaded and concealed hand gun in their vehicle.  However, to carry a concealed handgun on your person when not in your own home or vehicle requires a CCL license and you are part of the DL data base that law enforcement uses when making a traffic stop, etc.

One thing I would urge anyone reading this discussion, if you decide to own a firearm, get the training and continue with regular practice so that you are confident with it use.  Get a CCL so you are legal to carry!  Also, if you have family, include them in the training, teaching firearm safty (FIRST and FOREMOST), then regular practice sessions and safety sessions after that, especially if you have children.  It will increase your accident free status immeasurably for your children.  Children should not be made to fear a gun, but they should be trained to respect it as a tool, taught that ALL guns are always loaded until shown by a parent it is not loaded, and not to touch it unless accompanied by a parent.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 11:52:54
Matthew 10:24
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Just sayin'

love,

Sopranette

Your post is a contextual tragedy. The passage is actually verse 34, but why not at least mention the next two verses:

Mat 10:35-36 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household."


So is Jesus advocating violence against our families?

According to your use of this text that would be very likely.


You're right, Charles.  I have no excuse.  Thanks for pointing it out.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 11:53:52
I thought I should also mention, after watching this video  I noticed something. If you fast forward the video linked below to about 15:20 minutes you will hear a witness and David Koresh both mention the same verses I have heard used here repeatedly to justify his stock piling of weapons in Mount Carmel. For those of us who understand what happened in Waco Texas February 28th to April 19th 1993, all that would have been avoided without their possession and use of guns.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6765137779810391299
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 12:39:02
I would like to point out that there is a difference between self defence and advocating violence.  Some seem to equate these two very different aand distict ideas,  They are NOT the same.  The violence is being commited by the attacker not the victim who is merely defending himself.

Only a tiny mind incapable of rational thought would even consider the act of self defense is even in the ball park of advocating violence.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 13:14:53
Matthew 10:24
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Just sayin'

love,

Sopranette

Maiden,

(Mat 10:35-36) - That has always been such a sobering mantra and promise to me, and have seen its truth over the legions of my times and times, in great travail, across the lands and reaches of my seasons.

Better a Boanergez with a sword, than a corpse in the copes.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 13:21:18
Matthew 10:24
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Just sayin'

love,

Sopranette

Maiden,

That has always been such a sobering mantra and promise to me, and have seen its truth over the legions of my times and times, in great travail, across the lands and reaches of my seasons.

Better a Boanergez with a sword, than a corpse in the copes.

Robert

Robert,

Whats sad is she admitted that was a misuse of Scripture and you still praise her for it.

Please show some respect for the words of Christ.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 13:33:26
Charles,

What happened at Waco would not have happened if the ultra liberal anti gun ATTY Gen and the BATF at that time had let the local Sheriff do his job instead of trying to pull off a poorly planned raid that was designed to get publicity instead of results.  I really feel sorry for the men and women on both sides of that raid and the subsequent standoff and undesirable end to that action.  The BATF men in that raid were brave men but the planners were fools and it cost alot of lives on both sides.  We have seen that alot of times in recent years.  The sheriff told the Feds he could get Koresh to come into town anytime they needed him to and avoid any blood shed.  The Feds chose to disregard what he said.  Just another example of our ultra liberal feds who want total Federal control instead of allowing the local athorities to handle the situation.

I don't agree with anything D Koresh did.  However, the government holds ultimate responsibility for those lives lost on both sides.  The gun ownership and stock piling is a minor issue to the real issues that were quickly covered up by the Feds under Clinton's Atty Gen.  I live just 60 miles from the compound and had friends that lived very close to the compound.  I saw news clips that did not make the national news and were pulled immediately after airing!  

Isn't it amazing how we get different information that is "filtered" by the liberal Feds and the even more liberal Press and how we can come to different conclussions about what happens!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 13:35:44
I would like to point out that there is a difference between self defence and advocating violence.  Some seem to equate these two very different aand distict ideas,  They are NOT the same.  The violence is being commited by the attacker not the victim who is merely defending himself.

Only a tiny mind incapable of rational thought would even consider the act of self defense is even in the ball park of advocating violence.

Please explain how using a gun can be non-violent.


Charles and Wily,

Charles,

It is extremely violent. It is, such as my use of a sawed off 12 gauge with 3" magnum rounds of #4 Buckshot, as violent as it gets,  short of my hand made grenade rounds for the gauge as well.  The #4 3 incher is sobering as a round,  in that it has 41, .22 cal. ball-pellets in each round.  

This, when fired into the solarplexes at the about chest level of a human being, at from 8 to 20 feet, shreds and minces the entire body cavity from the lower chest up.  It becomes a pink, red, superated mass mixed with entrails and a grey spray of expended body fluids in a pink-grey tinted mist.

It is also the end of the bandito.

Charles, in your very very sterile, holy, perfect, pure world of grand comfort and large stomach and warm confines and the fresh bag of chemical fritos next to the little Gateway, well of course we will always "turn the other cheek" in utter stupefaction.  That is the beauty of self induced nirvana.

But as I said, if you or Anchorman or your ilk,  ever run into a Robert type, me,  when it absolutely positvely has to be killed overnight, so you can espouse peace and love another day with Anchorman and such, you can open that bag of fritos after the violent travail, safe and sound, then sue me.....

Just a thought, in the darkness that prevades us.

Better to be a Boanergez with a sword, than a corpse in the copse.

Wily,

Your post above, both long ones, is exceptional and excellent analogy as well as clear thinking on the point of defense in love,  death by sword.  True.

And thank you so much for your most kind praise of the tomes and daubs in color I engage. Much appreciated.

Robert




Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 13:46:52
No one has mentioned that going to the range is just plain fun?  Aren't Christians allowed to have fun?

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 14:00:21
Charles, in your very very sterile, holy, perfect, pure world of grand comfort and large stomach and warm confines and the fresh bag of chemical fritos next to the little Gateway, well of course we will always "turn the other cheek" in utter stupefaction.  That is the beauty of self induced nirvana.

Well, I guess Jesus and myself are stupid then. (Mat 5:39)

I thank you for your comments. (Mat 10:25)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 14:02:24
Charles,

What happened at Waco would not have happened if the ultra liberal anti gun ATTY Gen and the BATF at that time had let the local Sheriff do his job instead of trying to pull off a poorly planned raid that was designed to get publicity instead of results.  I really feel sorry for the men and women on both sides of that raid and the subsequent standoff and undesirable end to that action.  The BATF men in that raid were brave men but the planners were fools and it cost alot of lives on both sides.  We have seen that alot of times in recent years.  The sheriff told the Feds he could get Koresh to come into town anytime they needed him to and avoid any blood shed.  The Feds chose to disregard what he said.  Just another example of our ultra liberal feds who want total Federal control instead of allowing the local athorities to handle the situation.

I don't agree with anything D Koresh did.  However, the government holds ultimate responsibility for those lives lost on both sides.  The gun ownership and stock piling is a minor issue to the real issues that were quickly covered up by the Feds under Clinton's Atty Gen.  I live just 60 miles from the compound and had friends that lived very close to the compound.  I saw news clips that did not make the national news and were pulled immediately after airing!  

Isn't it amazing how we get different information that is "filtered" by the liberal Feds and the even more liberal Press and how we can come to different conclussions about what happens!

I very much agree with everything you said.

But you have to admit if they didn't have the guns nothing would have happened.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 14:18:30
Charles, I do understand the feeling of having a newborn in your arms, then having to think about something violent possibly taking place in your own home.  It's a scary place to be in.  You want to protect him with everything you've got, but you don't want something so horrible and bloody taking place anywhere near him.  So I do understand a little bit about why this question comes up.  Where I live, it is a necessity, as the police are spread very thin, and there's quite a bit of land between homes.  Not only that, but we do have wild dogs and copperheads here, too.  There's just not enough home protection for us in a bat, or an alarm system.  And it's not something you just decide all in one day.  It takes some mental rewiring to get prepared to defend your home and the ones living within.  It takes preparation both in practice and in the mind.  Does that make sense?

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 14:51:23
With that said, should Christians own guns?
Why should they ?
God, has NOT authorized anyone, to kill someone else.
"Thou shalt not kill"

And as to hunting...God has other plans for people getting their food.
HE wants people to eat the foods HE provided since the time of Adam& Eve....fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 14:53:37
"Thou shall not murder." Big difference.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 15:14:48
"Thou shall not murder." Big difference.

love,

Sopranette
The result is the same...the person is dead ?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 15:26:43
No, not the same.  One can accidently kill a person, and one can intentionally murder a person.  The intent is the difference.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 15:27:14
Quote
This, when fired into the solarplexes at the about chest level of a human being, at from 8 to 20 feet, shreds and minces the entire body cavity from the lower chest up.  It becomes a pink, red, superated mass mixed with entrails and a grey spray of expended body fluids in a pink-grey tinted mist.

Robert, your arguments in favor of guns would have more effect if you didn't seem to take so much pleasure in shooting people. Parts of your posts sound like they are out of a dimestore detective novel. The best arguments for keeping guns out of the hands of civilians might be lines such as "it becomes a pink, red superated mass mixed with entrails..."   ::theblues::

It would be better if you said "I hated to shoot the crazed drug lord but me and my Uzi were the only things standing in the way of the destruction of truth, justice and the American way by the forces of the cartel."   ::holdingupflag::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 15:37:57
Charles, I do understand the feeling of having a newborn in your arms, then having to think about something violent possibly taking place in your own home.  It's a scary place to be in.  You want to protect him with everything you've got, but you don't want something so horrible and bloody taking place anywhere near him.  So I do understand a little bit about why this question comes up.  Where I live, it is a necessity, as the police are spread very thin, and there's quite a bit of land between homes.  Not only that, but we do have wild dogs and copperheads here, too.  There's just not enough home protection for us in a bat, or an alarm system.  And it's not something you just decide all in one day.  It takes some mental rewiring to get prepared to defend your home and the ones living within.  It takes preparation both in practice and in the mind.  Does that make sense?

love,

Sopranette

Soaps,

Indeed, you make very good sense. But my reservation isn't just about a violent act taking place in the vicinity of my family, but my reservation is doing something against my conscience. I don't live in a rural area but I live in a urban city between two metropolitan, so lack of police isn't really a problem. But crime is still an issue anywhere you live, and in bigger cities it can be a bigger problem then in the country.

I might consider mace or something similar in a threatening situation, but at this point not guns.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 17:15:43
Charles, in your very very sterile, holy, perfect, pure world of grand comfort and large stomach and warm confines and the fresh bag of chemical fritos next to the little Gateway, well of course we will always "turn the other cheek" in utter stupefaction.  That is the beauty of self induced nirvana.

Well, I guess Jesus and myself are stupid then. (Mat 5:39)

I thank you for your comments. (Mat 10:25)

Well of course you and Jesus are close buds.  Easy on the self induced blasphemy.

Why do you have such a severe, draconian, chip upon your being, even in the face of praise and soft goodness.  Does this, like that 'Elijah' character, make you somehow more self induced pious.  Odd.

Oh well, you have a blessed weekend as we pound away in our season.

Fun discourses nonetheless.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 17:18:29
I hope I never am faced with having to protect my family, but I hope they can trust me as their husband and daddy to do so.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 17:24:17
Quote
This, when fired into the solarplexes at the about chest level of a human being, at from 8 to 20 feet, shreds and minces the entire body cavity from the lower chest up.  It becomes a pink, red, superated mass mixed with entrails and a grey spray of expended body fluids in a pink-grey tinted mist.

Robert, your arguments in favor of guns would have more effect if you didn't seem to take so much pleasure in shooting people. Parts of your posts sound like they are out of a dimestore detective novel. The best arguments for keeping guns out of the hands of civilians might be lines such as "it becomes a pink, red superated mass mixed with entrails..."   ::theblues::

It would be better if you said "I hated to shoot the crazed drug lord but me and my Uzi were the only things standing in the way of the destruction of truth, justice and the American way by the forces of the cartel."   ::holdingupflag::


Great comeback.  Love it.  The point is, that description could also be you,  or me, without the gauge.  Just a matter of wanting to live another day, and witness and lead more to the Lord, love the maidens, and relish the gift of life.

I'm almost sure that goal is not a sin.

Bless you,

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 17:32:01
With that said, should Christians own guns?
Why should they ?
God, has NOT authorized anyone, to kill someone else.
"Thou shalt not kill"

And as to hunting...God has other plans for people getting their food.
HE wants people to eat the foods HE provided since the time of Adam& Eve....fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains.

Soprante is correct, ad infinitum to a T.

Switch it around, you want to be dead?

What is amazing with all this bleeding heart stuff is it is all so anti biblical in every way. It is anti God, it is not scriptural and like liberalism, it is for the very rich and comfortable and  the blind.

Why don't you consider this about peace and love and such:

God "murdered" 1.1 billion people and spared 6. He then told them, after they saw the bow and ask if He would destroy them with water again, 'No'. He said, ' but watch the fire next time'.

Consider.

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 17:35:38
Charles, in your very very sterile, holy, perfect, pure world of grand comfort and large stomach and warm confines and the fresh bag of chemical fritos next to the little Gateway, well of course we will always "turn the other cheek" in utter stupefaction.  That is the beauty of self induced nirvana.

Well, I guess Jesus and myself are stupid then. (Mat 5:39)

I thank you for your comments. (Mat 10:25)

Well of course you and Jesus are close buds.  Easy on the self induced blasphemy.

Why do you have such a severe, draconian, chip upon your being, even in the face of praise and soft goodness.  Does this, like that 'Elijah' character, make you somehow more self induced pious.  Odd.

Oh well, you have a blessed weekend as we pound away in our season.

Fun discourses nonetheless.

Robert

Robert,

Everyone read your comments quoted above, stop pretending they are somehow appropriate.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 17:45:26
huh?

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 18:28:43
Charles Sloan,

Thanks for agreeing with me for a change.  However, the "BUT".............

The law is specific.  Under the Constitution of the USA, something that I will defend no matter what, and based on the most recent Supreme Court rulings, a private individual has the absolute right to own a weapon in their home to protect themselves and their family.  The city government of Washington DC is already exploring ways to circumvent the Suprem Court ruling by their own admission! I call that contempt of court and breaking the law!  If you take away the firearms, only the government and criminals will have firearms.  Those honest citizens who follow the laws they live under will be left helpless.  When that has happened in the past 250 years, we have had 1) the American Revolution, 2)  numerous dictators who executed milions of people who had no selfdefense available (eg: Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and others) and 3) the falling apart of nations to dictatorships.  The Constitution has a Bill of Rights written to protect certain rights under the law and to help keep the country free of internal take overs and free of external takeovers.  The 2nd admendment was considered the most important admendment next to the 1st by the framers of the Constitution because it basically states that the freedom we enjoy is the responsibility of every citizen and to ensure that there are people who can fight, the right to keep and bear arms is absolute.  The military is considered a completly separate organization.  The militia is every citizen who owns a firearm and is capable of using it to defend the US.  

You say if there were no guns then the killings at Waco would not have happened.  I think you are very wrong that.  Look at what happened at the cult in South America a number of years ago.  Several killings by guns, hundreds of killings by cyanide laced punch!  The cult in Waco died not because of guns but because of a very aggressive government agency using guns while tresspassing (in the eyes of the people in the cult).  This produced a self defense reaction in the cult.  Whether there was a legal warrant or not, if you see all these government coming up your driveway at high speed with guns, and you believe they are going to attack you with deadly intent, then it is an instinct to fight back whether it is with guns, knives, explosives, or hand to hand.  It would have occured no matter what because they believed they were going to be killed and blaming it on guns is just a smoke screen.

Here is what Texas criminal law says about this type of action:

Quote
 § 8.06.  ENTRAPMENT.  (a)  It is a defense to prosecution
that the actor engaged in the conduct charged because he was induced
to do so by a law enforcement agent using persuasion or other means
likely to cause persons to commit the offense.  Conduct merely
affording a person an opportunity to commit an offense does not
constitute entrapment.

Hope you find that interesting.  Outlawing guns will not prevent this or anyother crime using a firearm and many law abiding citizens will die because they lack the means to protect themselves.

BTW, if I were you, I would look into response times to various crimes to private homes in your community.  You will probably find that there is a much bigger time lag than you think there is.  When in a confrotation such as a forced home entry, the confrontation is usually over in a minute or two, one way or the other.  If you think law enforcement officers can respond in that time frame, then don't own a gun.  Trust in law enforcement to protect your family.  They are dedicated individuals who will put their lives on the line for you.  However, if you find response times of 4 to 5 minutes (more realistic but still too fast, IMO), you and your family could be dead in that time frame.

Can Christians own guns?  IMO, in order to protect your family, which IS a husband/father's Christian duty, you had better not only own a weapon that will stop harm from coming to your family, you had better train to use it and keep your training current and your skill level high!  It is your Christian duty as a husband and father!




Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 19:40:54
Quote
Yes, I know that your purpose is to "stop the action," but the expected result of a shot to the head is death. The most likely result of a shot to the chest is death. "Shooting to kill" would be aiming for a spot that, if hit, will likely result in death. Shooting someone in the foot (a poor choice, IMO) would most likely "stop the action" but is unlikely to result in death.

Perhaps you are equating "shooting to kill" with "shooting until you are sure they are dead." Or perhaps I simply don't understand what you are saying.


Good questions because the zone of impact in both cases as we are trained is a zone that can produce instant death.  There are two distinct areas here that are in consideration.

1) is the intent to stop the action from occuring or is the intent to purposefully kill the person committing the action?  explanation:  The intent to stop the action is a decision that is made to keep something from happening.  eg:  is the person with the gun, knife, etc about to committ an act that can cause serious bodily injury to yourself or an innocent person (3rd person)?  Will shooting someone in the foot or hand (extremly difficult shots for even the best expert shooters when in an adrenaline situation!) stop that person from committing an act of violence against yourself or an innocent 3rd party?  The fact is simply that type of target (if it can be successfully hit with two attempted shots) will not stop that perpetrator from committing the act he/she has decided to committ.  If the person shooting in defense is an expert shot and can successfully hit one leg/foot or one hand/arm, the perpetrator still has the other hand/arm to hold and aim the gun and a gun shot wound to the other hand/arm will not stop the person from using the weak hand.  I know that from personal experience having taken bullets to both my left hand and right wrist on different occassions.  I am trained to shoot equally well from strong or weak hand, just in case I get wounded in my strong hand. This type of wound does not stop or incapacitate the shooter.  A bullet to the foot or leg will also not incapacitate or stop the shooter, nor will it immediately stop the intended act, even if it hits the main artery in the thigh.  An arterial hit will probably be a fatal wound when they bleed out, but it will not stop the action of the perp.  The only target areas proven to stop the action are the central chest area of the torso of the perp (main target as it is the largest area and easiest to hit) and the head (secondary target area as it is smaller but still larger than any other available target) which is the prime target area if the perp is wearing kevlar protection.

2)  The second consideration in shooting to stop the action of the perp and not shooting to kill is a legal and moral one.  If you shoot someone, whether it is self defense or defense of a 3rd party who the deadly force is directed act by the perp, you will go before a judge and jury.  That is the law in every state in the US.  Each and every shooting is looked at by the legal system.  If you make the statement "Well, he was trying to kill me, so I killed him first, you can be prosecuted at several levels because of the intent to kill which you have displayed.  You made a statement that shows the intent to kill, not to prevent an intended deadly force action.  If you say that you believed your life was endanger when the man pointed his gun at you and you shot to stop him from shooting at you, you have said that you acted in self defense, without premeditated thought/action, and that your only concern was to prptect yourself by stopping the action that was occuring.  You did that by shooting the perp in the center of mass, the easiest target, to stop what he had intended to do to you and you dceased fire as soon as the action stoped.  He died not because of your intended action to kill him but he died because you simply stopped his action against you.  These are considerations that one must make if they are to take the responsibility of owning and using a firearm for selfdefense or defense of others.  If one does take the responsibility for defending one's family or self with a firearm, that person also has to accept that he/she also has the responsibility under the law to defend others who cannot defend themselves.  IOW, if you are licensed and carrying concealed (no license required in at least one state and their violent crime rate is low compared to gun control states!) and you witness a person pull a gun and start to shoot innocent people, you DO have an obligation to try to stop that action, whether the law of that state specifically states it that way or not.  You have the means available to stop the action so you, IMO, are at the minimum, morally bound to help, and legally bound in many states.  As long as you are trying to stop the action, when the action is stopped by your shooting ability or by someone else's, you are oblogated to immedialtely cease fire.  The idea of shoot until they are dead will get you prosecuted and probably jail time! 

There are three decisions to make when pointing a firearm at someone with the intent to stop the action:
1)  Does the perpetrator have the ability to commit or cause serious bodily injury or death
2)  Does the perpetrator have the intent to commit or cause serious bodily injury or death
3)  Are you or an innocent party placed in immediate jeporady by the actions of the perpetrator

Those three decisions have to made in an instant when using deadly force and that is a very seriously responsibility for the firearm owner.  However, the same decisions must be made whether the weapon is a baseball bat, a knife, a bow and arrow, a sling (David's style sling), or whatever weapon you choose.  The weapon (hand gun in this case) is simply a tool to save your life or someone else's.

I train to defend a nuclear plant.  I am, what some would say, EXPERT in shooting ability with a handgun.  That basically means that if I pull my handgun and I point it at a target, whether a live or artificial target, I will instinctivly hit the center of the available target from any range out to 25 yards 98% of the time, without conciously aiming the weapon.   I will never shoot to kill a human being.  Period!  However, if I have to shoot a human being to protect myself, my family, the public from a radioactive release, or innocent person, I intend to shoot for the biggest target available, which is also the most deadly point that a bullet can impact, and I will only shoot to stop the action that is being committed.  If the person dies as a result of trying to commit a heinous crime, that's a consequence of his actions, not mine.  My intent was only to stop the heinous crime from being committed.  I am legally protected as the laws of our state are specific in that regard.  I am also innocent of the intential death of the perpetrator because I do not ever want to purposfully (decision to "shoot to kill") take the life of some one.  That is the where the Bible "thou shalt not commit murder" really comes into play.

Jesus said "there is not greater love found than for someone to lay down their life for another."  That is so true.  He did it for us through willful surrender in order that the over all plan would be completed.  However, the implications of his statement go much farther.  He saved our lives by his willingness to be involved.  As one of those he died for, I am willing to die for my family trying to save their lives.  I am willing to die for my country trying to keep us free, and I am willing to die for an innocent person trying to keep them from being killed or harmed.  However, I don't have the power to come back from the grave to continue to protect those I am trying to protect as Jesus did so I will use the tools at hand and try as best I can to survive because if I don't survive the initial attack, there are others who will also not survive because of that, and a grand daughter who will grow up without a grandfather!  That is why I get perturbed with those who just want to lie down in the face of evil.  Giving up your life as some of the early Christians did under religious persecution to try to get the Good News spread is one thing, needlessly scraficing your life in the face of evil for no gain at all is senseless.

So, I will conclude by stating that Jesus allowed his disciples to carry swords for protection.  God used armies to defend and protect his people and he used people who did that same thing individually to further his plans.  And nowhere does the Bible state we are not allowed to carry weapons for personal protection or protection of others, and, it would seem that the examples of the Bible are just the opposit.  The Bible does not say it is wrong to kill.  It says it is wrong to murder.  Bad translation cause much confussion in many areas of Biblical understanding!

My apologies for being so wordy.
------------------------------------
Robert,

I love your art work and I hope one of these days our paths will cross because we sure think a whole lot alike!

Thanks Wiley.  Good explanation.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 20:29:02
Wiley,

Amen, in toto.

Behold.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 20:52:32
The following was posted on Nov. 14, 2006 by Normfromga on a thread titled "Veterans' Day (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,15438.msg322988.html#msg322988)".  It seemed appropriate to repost here.


Quote
ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS

By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is
considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell.

Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf.

But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa"…until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right long with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other.

Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

"If It Weren't For The United States Military"
"There Would Be NO United States of America"
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sat Nov 15, 2008 - 21:00:22
What a post and quote. An outlier of Wiley's posts as well.

Amen.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 06:48:27
Nevertheless,

Thanks for posting that particular.  We tend to forget some of the wonderful posts from years ago.

Here is a link to another article that I highly recommend reading and seriously thinking about. 

http://www.zianet.com/maxey/reflx345.htm

It is too long for posting here.  I gave some input into this article before it was written.  I believe Al has really done a great service with this article just as the article you re-published has.  This one is also kind of long but it directly addresses the question of "can Christians own Guns?"  I highlighted a very important part of the article for this discussion.  I was originally thinking about the article itself because it is just as powerful as the one you posted and they rightfully fit together.  For those who do not subscribe to Al Maxey's Reflections, here is his email address.  Al used to be a part of this forum but the confines of his own publications and studies have caused him to drop off most forums.

maxey@zianet.com

Quote
REFLECTIONS
by Al Maxey

Issue #345 ------- April 12, 2008
**************************
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of the people
to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Constitution of the United States
2nd Amendment, 15 Dec. 1791


**************************
Concealed Carry Christians
Pistol Packin' Pastors & Parishioners


 ......................But what about private citizens, who just happen to be Christians? May they bear arms? Again, I believe Scripture addresses this matter, and the answer is in the affirmative. Following the institution of the Lord's Supper, and just prior to going into the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus said to His apostles, "Let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one" [Luke 22:36]. At this time it appears only two of the apostles were carrying, for they told Him two swords were at hand. Think about this, brethren. At the Last Supper of our Lord, during which time He instituted the Lord's Supper, two of the apostles were "packing heat." We know who one of them was, for a few hours later Peter used this sword on Malchus, the servant of the High Priest [John 18:10]. Did Jesus urge him to get rid of this deadly weapon? No. He merely told Peter to return the sword to its sheath [vs. 11]. Jesus had come to this earth to lay down His life for mankind, thus this show of force in an effort to thwart this sacrifice was not in keeping with His mission. Nor was the Kingdom of God to be advanced at the point of a spear or by the edge of a sword (as was attempted during the Crusades). However, Jesus did authorize His servants to bear arms, and this would most logically be for the purpose of self-defense against the criminal element that abounded at that time. Yes, most of these men later willingly laid down their lives for their faith, considering martyrdom an honor. But, martyrdom for one's faith is a far cry from being brutalized by godless thugs on some dark, lonely road outside a village one is entering for the purpose of preaching the gospel. Thus, Jesus told them to make sure they were armed so they could defend themselves at such times. ..........

.........I find it rather interesting that one of the arguments some use is that owning/carrying a weapon is a failure to trust in God, and is therefore an absence of faith. If we truly had faith in the protection of our Father, then we would have no need of a weapon. Or, so goes the argument. I wonder, though -- do these same people have health insurance?! Do they carry a spare tire in their automobile? Do they get a flu shot each year? Do they immunize their children? Do they have a retirement fund set up? Why do they do these things?! Don't they trust God? Is their faith lacking? When Jesus encouraged His apostles to arm themselves, was He encouraging a diminishing of trust in the providential care of God? Let's face it, the adopting of prudent measures to prevent tragic circumstances (which are common to all men) hardly constitutes a lapse of faith. Being a Christian does not mean one should disengage his/her brain, cast off common sense, and/or break with reality. Jesus said, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore be shrewd as serpents, and innocent as doves" [Matt. 10:16]. Yes, there is to be innocence and purity evident within the lives of His disciples, but there must be shrewdness as well. Why? Because there are wolves lurking about, and we're their favorite snack. A reader in Oklahoma wrote, "When Jesus said 'turn the other cheek,' He wasn't saying to park your brain and commit suicide."

Some readers were somewhat conflicted about the issue. For example, a reader in Arkansas wrote, "I have mixed feelings on this. If a member of the church were carrying a gun and took out a bad guy who intruded into the worship services, that might save lives. But how would it look? One part of me says, 'Yes, do it' ... but another part of me says, 'No, don't.'" How would it look if a member killed a wolf who was determined to slaughter as many sheep and lambs as he could? I think most people would give that person a medal. It would probably even attract people to your congregation. So, my guess is, it would look pretty good. A reader in Texas admits to being perplexed by this issue for over 35 years. "I often ask myself -- if I truly believe in God and His providential care for me, should I arm myself for protection? So what if I'm killed, for then I'd be in heaven with the Father, and that is far better than being here. Could I live with myself after taking a life? There are no easy answers to these questions." For some Christians, these are indeed very difficult questions, and I certainly respect those who do not personally feel they could take another person's life, regardless of the circumstances. A police officer in Georgia, who has often carried a concealed weapon into the assemblies, says, "I can tell you that I wrestle with this often. Am I relying on myself or God? Or, am I allowing myself to be used by God to protect His people? I constantly examine and re-examine my heart on this issue." A reader in Michigan said, "I personally do not own a gun, and have never felt the need for one, but if I ever found myself in a position to need one, I hope someone near me has one." This was the view of several people. They didn't want any part of carrying a weapon, but if danger came their way, they certainly hoped someone nearby was "packing." I think a reader in Indiana summed it up well: "I don't own a gun, and would probably shoot myself in the foot if I had one. But, I would take comfort in knowing that one of my brothers was carrying a gun at all times."

We Live In Dangerous Times! ..............
 


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 08:23:16
I would like to point out that there is a difference between self defence and advocating violence.  Some seem to equate these two very different aand distict ideas,  They are NOT the same.  The violence is being commited by the attacker not the victim who is merely defending himself.

Only a tiny mind incapable of rational thought would even consider the act of self defense is even in the ball park of advocating violence.

Please explain how using a gun can be non-violent.



Using a gun does not make you a violent person anymore than using a base ball bat makes you a World Series champion.  A violent person is violent  if he/she owns a gun or not.

Do you own a car?  Well I guess that makes you a NASCAR driver.

By the way, why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy a sword?  Haven't heard much of a response on that one.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 12:56:54
The reason you have not gotten an answer to your point and post is that it is not subject to debate, just as Wiley's posts.  You state reason, and it is difficult to dissent against out and out reason.

Also note, all of us that post responses based on reason, is countered by the gushing emotionalism of "feelings", over substance.  That is why liberalism, along with so many other false teachings and 'feelings' prevail, since the culture is now hedonistic, rather than biblical, hyper religious, rather than spiritual.

Good post!

Robert


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 16:07:52
Charles Sloan,

(getting the discussion back on track but a little broader based this time!

Re: Should Christians Own Guns? 

Quote
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?   

The hunting and sport side of the ownership of guns has not really been explored because you wanted to know about owning a gun for self defense.  In reality, it must be included in the solution you are looking for because anyone who knows how to shoot a firearm of any type, especially active hunters, instinctivly know that firearms are ideal for self defense in most situations.  Hunting requires the hunter to know when to shoot and when not to shoot based on the idea of 1) being able to down a game animal with a single shot kill so the animal does not suffer, 2) knowing that before a finger goes on the trigger of any firearm the shooter must know beyond a doubt that there is no one that will accidently be shot instead of the intended target, and 3) being able to effectively hit a target at the point of aim on a repetitive basis.  The self defense side of this shooting is being able to hit a target at the point of aim on a repetitive basis and knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt no innocent person will be the recipient of an unwanted stray bullet you fired.  Why?  Because no matter how few or how many rounds are fired in self defense, if any of those rounds go astray and hit an innocent bystander, then you are really not in any better position than the person who is trying to shoot you.  The sport side of shooting makes it fun to train to shoot accurately for the time you hope never occurs--the time that you have to use a firearm in self defense or defense of another.

So, you cannot separate the two sides because they are tied together like siamese twins.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 16:41:43
The reason you have not gotten an answer to your point and post is that it is not subject to debate, just as Wiley's posts.  You state reason, and it is difficult to dissent against out and out reason.

Also note, all of us that post responses based on reason, is countered by the gushing emotionalism of "feelings", over substance.  That is why liberalism, along with so many other false teachings and 'feelings' prevail, since the culture is now hedonistic, rather than biblical, hyper religious, rather than spiritual.

Good post!

Robert




I would say they are more spiritual than Spiritiual and more godly than Godly
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 21:34:20
No, not the same.  One can accidently kill a person, and one can intentionally murder a person.  The intent is the difference.

love,

Sopranette
OK...using your definition, how do you view WAR ?

That is not accidently killing someone, it is premeditated murder.
You go to war, knowing you are trained to kill(?) someone else.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 22:11:01
In Hebrew, where this originates in the OT, 'Kill' is not 'Murder'.

Kill -  defense of
Murder - premeditated end of life of another without cause

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 22:49:51
In Hebrew, where this originates in the OT, 'Kill' is not 'Murder'.

Kill -  defense of
Murder - premeditated end of life of another without cause

Robert
'without cause' ?
War, might be considered without cause, BUT people are triained to take life of someone else, never the less.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Sun Nov 16, 2008 - 23:30:14
Yes, they are. And in part, why you are typing here, freely, and not speaking Japanese, German, or Islamic, by subjected force.

Consider.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 07:10:53
No, not the same.  One can accidently kill a person, and one can intentionally murder a person.  The intent is the difference.

love,

Sopranette
OK...using your definition, how do you view WAR ?

That is not accidently killing someone, it is premeditated murder.
You go to war, knowing you are trained to kill(?) someone else.
This thread has been mostly about home defense.   It might be of interest to someone if you start a new thread on the topic of "war".

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 08:10:31
3 AM,

This is somewhat off the subject but close enough that I will let it continue on for a few posts.  However  if it moves into an anti-war style of thread I will kill it real quick.  If anyone wants to continue on this line of thought after several more posts, Sopranette is correct, it needs to be a separate thread.

Quote
OK...using your definition, how do you view WAR ?

That is not accidently killing someone, it is premeditated murder.
You go to war, knowing you are trained to kill(?) someone else. 

1st:  as Christians we are required to obey the laws and actions of our government (powers and principalties I think is one way it is stated in Scripture)

2nd: the principle thought and purpose of war is protecting the home front from attack by keeping the battlelines off our soil.

3rd:  Fighting and killing in a declared war is not murder when someone is killed unless that person who is killed is unarmed and under the control of the shooter as a POW.

4 th:  If you are on a battlefield and someone is shooting at you with the intent to kill you, then it is really a matter of self defense to keep from being killed regardless of whether the action is offensive or defensive

5th:  If I were to be sent to war (which I won't be at 60  ::smile::), I would hope that my country would try to give me the training required to be able to survive the outcome of the battle and return home to my family!

And this concludes my thoughts on this  ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 08:43:18
David was a man after God's own heart.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight,"

Psalms 144:1.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 08:59:55
David was a man after God's own heart.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight,"

Psalms 144:1.

I Chron 28:2 "But God said to me [David], 'You are not to build a house for my Name,because you are a warrior and have shed blood.'"

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 09:14:42
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy  everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 09:44:40
I would just like to know why the disciples that were murdered didn't put up a fight.

As far as our faith is concerned, we are to turn the other cheek and be willing to become martyrs if it is about Christ. Jesus told his disciples they would be killed for their faith and it is no different today.

Stephen did not fight back when he was stoned for his testimony about Jesus Acts 6:8-7:60. Men from one of the synagogues seized Stephen and took him before the Sanhedrin, the religious court, for questioning. Stephen boldly rebuked the religious leaders, who became enraged and stoned him to death, he did not resist but became as Jesus praying that those who did it in ignorance would be forgiven. We are told by Luke, “there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 11:59:51
Quote
In regard to protecting ourselves from crime and our nation from foreign aggression, force is allowed by both the Old and New Testaments.  In the Old Testament (Genesis 14), when Abraham's nephew Lot was kidnapped by Chedorlaomer, the king of Elam, Abraham gathered 318 trained men of his household to rescue Lot. Ex 17:9 And Moses said to Joshua, "Choose us some men and go out, fight with Amalek.  1 Samuel 17:45 Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword, with a spear, and with a javelin. But I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.

The difference between OT times and now is that back then the Jews were God's chosen people. It was Jews against everybody else in the world. Now we all have access to God through Jesus. During the US Civil War both north and south prayed to God for victory. During the World Wars people of Germany, Austria, Britian, France and the US all prayed to the same God for victory. In 1917 who was God's chosen, the Lutheran German conscript or the Presbyterian American conscript?

Another difference is that in OT times God specifically told his people to go out and kill every single Amalekite. Today we don't get those direct commands. Jesus, God incarnate, told us to love our neighbors and to do good to those who oppose us.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 12:05:20
Quote
In regard to protecting ourselves from crime and our nation from foreign aggression, force is allowed by both the Old and New Testaments.  In the Old Testament (Genesis 14), when Abraham's nephew Lot was kidnapped by Chedorlaomer, the king of Elam, Abraham gathered 318 trained men of his household to rescue Lot. Ex 17:9 And Moses said to Joshua, "Choose us some men and go out, fight with Amalek.  1 Samuel 17:45 Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword, with a spear, and with a javelin. But I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.

The difference between OT times and now is that back then the Jews were God's chosen people. It was Jews against everybody else in the world. Now we all have access to God through Jesus. During the US Civil War both north and south prayed to God for victory. During the World Wars people of Germany, Austria, Britian, France and the US all prayed to the same God for victory. In 1917 who was God's chosen, the Lutheran German conscript or the Presbyterian American conscript?

Another difference is that in OT times God specifically told his people to go out and kill every single Amalekite. Today we don't get those direct commands. Jesus, God incarnate, told us to love our neighbors and to do good to those who oppose us.

The Jews are STILL God's chosen people,  That did not change.
Just because, someone prays for something, that THEY want to happen......It will never happen UNLESS it is God's will....
So many people claim, that their prayers go unanswered......Which is probably true,   because I think most people, pray for their own will to be done and not God's will.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 16:43:43
Quote
The Jews are STILL God's chosen people,  That did not change.

I think the Jews sort of lost their Most Favored Nation status when they rejected the Messiah. After Peter had the vision with the clean and unclean animals being let down in a sheet we have all been in this together - Jews and Gentiles, slave and free, male and female (except that the wimmen still can't speak up in public and they have to be in submission to their better halves).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 16:51:24
Wiley saith:
Quote
1st:  as Christians we are required to obey the laws and actions of our government (powers and principalties I think is one way it is stated in Scripture)

2nd: the principle thought and purpose of war is protecting the home front from attack by keeping the battlelines off our soil.

During the Civil War there were Christians on both sides. One side was fighting to preserve the Union, one side was fighting to uphold the principle of state's rights. In real life, many of the men were fighting because their government told them they had to.

Could both sides have been justified in the eyes of God?
Were both governments, north and south, correct? If not, were the soldiers drafted by the wrong side obligated to obey the laws of their government?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 17:15:14
Quote
The Jews are STILL God's chosen people,  That did not change.

I think the Jews sort of lost their Most Favored Nation status when they rejected the Messiah. After Peter had the vision with the clean and unclean animals being let down in a sheet we have all been in this together - Jews and Gentiles, slave and free, male and female (except that the wimmen still can't speak up in public and they have to be in submission to their better halves).

The Jews have never had a "most favored NATION" status, they are God's chosen people.
And it does not matter, what you THINK to be true.....The bible tells us they are God's chosen.....They have suffered a great deal, throughout history, that is their punishment for rejecting Christ......But in the End Times (now), God is restoring Israel and the Jewsto their homeland.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Mon Nov 17, 2008 - 20:55:04
Snargles,

That is the case in all wars, regardless of when and where they occur.  There is a side that is right and a side that is wrong.  However, we are still to respect the laws of our government.

In WW2, There were Christians fighting for the Nazis who did not have a choice.  It would be very safe to say that the same occured in Italy, in Russia, in Japan, etc.
When I was growing up, I had a school teacher/head master (private school in Ft. Worth) who fought for the Germans for a short time until he was able to escape from Hungary to the US.  The man was a Christian, but he still fought for the Germans because he was forced to fight.

Germany disarmed the populace where ever they went.  The populace had no means to fight back after the Germans took over except for the isolated pockets of resistance when they could obtain weapons.  He was in an occupied area and inducted by force (drafted  ::smile::).

If we give up our firearms and the right to bear arms, our government will fall without resistance if the military fails.  In a nuclear exchange, only the citizens who sruvive the intital exchange because they are away from the target areas will have weapons and be able to resist a take over.  That is if we don't confiscate weapons as many want the government to do.  We will not have a militia if that happens to fill in the gap of the standing army once the firearms are confiscated.

That also plays out in the survival mode because the criminal element will still have guns, regardless of any other action taken by the government against the law obiding citizen regarding firearm ownership.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 00:59:39
Summating, "Should Christians Own Guns, For All Reasons, All Seasons?"

Yes.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 11:51:39
Awesome post, Mr. Clarkson!

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 13:15:49
I have yet to see anyone give any BIBLICAL evidence that it is wrong for Christians to own guns.  I have seen passages twisted out of context but none to support the idea that we should not defend ourselves when confronted by those who would do our families or ourselves physical harm.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 13:45:54
Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Psalm 56:3,4 What time I am afraid, I will trust in Thee. In God I will praise His Word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.

Psalm 56:11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.

Matthew 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Why do I need a gun if I am not afraid.  What do I really have to fear?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: NarrowWay on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 16:05:22
As long as you don't kill anybody I guess it would be OK.  Murder of any kind to any human being is wrong after all.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 18:38:45
w8ing4daybreak
Quote
Hebrews 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.....................  Why do I need a gun if I am not afraid.  What do I really have to fear?

There are different types of fear

Do I fear what man can do to me if I stand up for my faith?  NO.
 
Do I fear what God can do to me if I don't stand up for my faith?  Yes.

Do I fear what evil men can do to my family by my actions of not standing in the way and fighting until I can fight no more?  YES!   and I  fear even more what God will do to me for not standing in between evil and my family and taking a proactive role in defending their lives!

Do I fear death:  No.  Why?  See Hebrews 13:6

In a direct conflict, there will always be fear of the confrontation.  It is knowing that God stands with those who are believers that gives the strength to move past the fear that restrains us from action and to take action and fight back, surviving the evil of this world.

If someone breaks into my house, there will be fear in my house, but there will also be a believer who trusts in God to take the aim by placing the front sights on the evil and pulling the trigger and help me stop the intruder, even if that means putting bullets into that person and me taking a bullet in the process!


NarrowWay

Quote
As long as you don't kill anybody I guess it would be OK.  Murder of any kind to any human being is wrong after all.

to kill and Murder of any kind are two totally different concepts.  The first can be totally permissible depending on the circumstances.  The second is totally NOT permissible---EVER!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: mike on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 18:45:14
I did some target shooting with my HK P-30 9 mm and my Colt .45 this past weekend.

All Christians don't have to own guns. But some of us are going to. And I think that is a good thing.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 18:45:50
Quote
If someone breaks into my house, there will be fear in my house, but there will also be a believer who trusts in God to take the aim by placing the front sights on the evil and pulling the trigger and help me stop the intruder, even if that means putting bullets into that person and me taking a bullet in the process!

If someone breaks into my house I will trust that even though he takes all the material possessions I have God will keep him from shooting me and my wife. And if we do get shot I will trust that God will grant us a place in the No Guns, No Smoking, No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service Heaven.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 19:26:38
Yes.  Buy as many as you possibly can.  That'll take them out of the hands of non-Christians.  And drive the price up on everyone else.

If you don't like em in your house, bury em in the back yard.

Ever the pragmatist,

Jarrod
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 19:42:58
The question before me is " Should Christians Own Guns?

Let me think about this ????????????????????????? Well after some thought here is what I came up with. I guess it would be OK as long as they did not shoot it.

Well I guess on second thought it would be OK to shoot it if it were for putting food on the table.
In this world we live by the law of the land and that law says we have the right to defend our selves. Gods law say that we do not let mans law over ride his but he also was for self defence to so I guess it is only a question that can be answered by each personal christian as to how they would answer it. It falls in one of the faith things. If you can answer with faith that God would allow then more power to you it is between you and God. If you feel that God is against it then it would not be something you would want to do because to you it would be going against your faith. Either way it is up to the individual christian to make the decision out of a study from the Fathers word and act upon it through faith.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 21:29:07
Yes.  Buy as many as you possibly can.  That'll take them out of the hands of non-Christians.  And drive the price up on everyone else.

If you don't like em in your house, bury em in the back yard.

Ever the pragmatist,

Jarrod
rofl manna, Jarrod.  (<--from the Christian man who just spent the day with a Lee-Enfield .303 in his hands.) ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 23:57:47
Quote
If you don't like em in your house, bury em in the back yard.

No-No-No --  don't bury them in the back yard, bring to my back yard and just dump them over the fence.  I'll take care of the rest!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 01:20:42
Yea, they are worthless buried.

In fact, if they are buried in the dirt, it is likely at some point so will  the gun owner under that premise.

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: applelist on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 06:00:03
Many Christians believe that they have a right to call a policeman to protect them from a home invader, using lethal force if necessary. How can one delegate to government a right that one doesn’t have himself? We cannot give what we do not have! Many Christians believe that killing the enemy overseas is commendable, but killing the enemy here at home is wrong. What twisted reasoning arises among God’s people when the study of Scripture is neglected for a generation and replaced with music, drama, psychology and lectures on "How to Feel Good About Yourself." Back to The Book. It is not a pacifist book. God is not a pacifist God. Pacifism allows terror to reign and good people to perish!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 07:57:56
The question before me is " Should Christians Own Guns?

Let me think about this ????????????????????????? Well after some thought here is what I came up with. I guess it would be OK as long as they did not shoot it.

Well I guess on second thought it would be OK to shoot it if it were for putting food on the table.
In this world we live by the law of the land and that law says we have the right to defend our selves. Gods law say that we do not let mans law over ride his but he also was for self defence to so I guess it is only a question that can be answered by each personal christian as to how they would answer it. It falls in one of the faith things. If you can answer with faith that God would allow then more power to you it is between you and God. If you feel that God is against it then it would not be something you would want to do because to you it would be going against your faith. Either way it is up to the individual christian to make the decision out of a study from the Fathers word and act upon it through faith.

Even though I am against guns (except for hunting, varmint killing and recreational target shooting) I have to admit that there are enough arguments on both sides of the issue to leave it in the realm of opinion (kind of like IM).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 15:01:11
Using a gun does not make you a violent person anymore than using a base ball bat makes you a World Series champion.  A violent person is violent  if he/she owns a gun or not.

Do you own a car?  Well I guess that makes you a NASCAR driver.

So using a gun on a human being made in God's image doesn't constitute an act of violence?

Perhaps you should look at the definition of violence.

By the way, why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy a sword?  Haven't heard much of a response on that one.

I can tell you conclusively from the examples of the Apostles and early disciples, it wasn't that they should defend themselves with force or use weapons to harm others. If not, why do we repeatedly see the disciples and Apostles being murdered for their faith without resistance or a fight?

The only sword the disciples brandished was the sword of the Spirit, for the weapons of their warfare were not carnal.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 15:18:49
If you shoot an animal ... bring it to me for intensive care.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 15:42:20
Maybe I should have been more specific above for people like Mike, I will amend my post.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 16:08:00
Quote
By the way, why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy a sword?  Haven't heard much of a response on that one.

I didn't do any exhaustive study but I looked at a few commentaries about Luke 22:36 on Christian Classics Etheral.

Adam Clarke said the word "sword" was inserted and doesn't belong in Luke 22:36 or if it does belong there it is used as a "proverbial expression" to mean difficult and dangerous times are coming.

Mathew Henry said the word sword was used to show that times will be hard. He said the apostles were to arm themselves with the sword of the spirit.

John Gill said "sword" meant the times would be hard.

Albert Barnes says that Luke 22:36 is not a command to go out and buy a sword but is a way of warning that bad times were coming. He goes on to say that "Men encompassed with danger may lawfully defend their lives. It does not prove that it is lawful to make offensive war ona nation or an individual."
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 16:17:31
If you shoot an animal ... bring it to me for intensive care.
Really?  Even a rabbit?  Do people not eat rabbit in the States at all? ::yummy::

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 17:08:32
If I hadn't been severely over-gunned for rabbit hunting yesterday, I would have.  Instead I was armed for large buck and saw only does...lots of them, all within clear shots and no more than 30 yards away!  But alas, no doe permit and a good conscience meant they were "the ones that got away."  At least I had the joy of watching them eat and walk casually through the forest as if I wasn't even there.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 17:23:03
The thing is...I had made an honest mistake.  But had this happened in the US instead of Canada, do you think that I could have been shot and killed that night?  This is a serious question here.  Please give me your honest opinion.

Yes, and the US courts would have ruled in their favor "self-defense/trespassing". Guns, i don't know why you have to kill someone if you own one, as many have said...you can disable also.

Never the less, your example is a great indicator that we shouldn't be drunkards as well.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 19:49:41
Yes, and the US courts would have ruled in their favor "self-defense/trespassing". Guns, i don't know why you have to kill someone if you own one, as many have said...you can disable also

I don't recall anyone saying shoot to kill!  A trained person with a firearm will never shoot to kill becuase it is not defensible.  Please go back in this thread and read my posts of defensive use of a firearm.  You will find that this use is shooting to stop the action of what is being directed at you.  The law states that you cannot use more force that what is directed at you.  If you are confronted with deadly force directed at you, then you may use force, up to and including deadly force to stop the force being directed at you.  There is no shoot to kill provision in the law.  It is always shoot to stop the use of force against you or an innocent by stander.  The fact that some perpetrators may die as a result of being stopped by a bullet from committing a felony is a consequence of their action and not yours if you shoot only to stop the action.  THat does not mean shoot to wound.  Just remember that an attacker that is only wounded in the arm or leg can still shoot you just as easily as they can before being shot.

I have carried a gun on the job for 25 years.  I have received more than a thousand hours of training in those 25 years in the class room and on the range and fired about 25,000 t0 30,000 rounds in on the job training.  Believe me, if you shoot to kill, you will be just as guilty as the aggressor in alot of states.  However, in most states it is a defense to prosecution if you are defending yourself or another person if you shoot center of mass to stop a felony from being committed
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OkiMar on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 21:42:08
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?
Yes, if they want to own firearms.  No, if they do not.  It's up to the individual.  Just because one is a Christian does not void his or her right to self preservation / self defense.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OkiMar on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 21:45:22
Back in the fall the 1975 I was about to start some post secondary school education at a college in Toronto.  It was before I was saved and I had gone to a bar and had gotten pretty hammered that evening. I took the bus home and I walked into a house that looked identical to the one I was renting a room.  These two houses looked the same.   The front door had been unlocked and I stepped insided.  Then crouching at the top of the stairs was a man--the owner of the house.  Then his wife appeared beside him  I realized at that point, despite my alcohol fogged brain, that I had entered the wrong house.  I apologized and went next door to the house I should have gone to in the first place.  The next morning I saw the gentleman raking leaves and again I apologized for intruding into his home so late at night.

The thing is...I had made an honest mistake.  But had this happened in the US instead of Canada, do you think that I could have been shot and killed that night?  This is a serious question here.  Please give me your honest opinion.
You could have easily been killed if you had come in my house and likely many, many others. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OkiMar on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 21:48:39
Many Christians believe that they have a right to call a policeman to protect them from a home invader, using lethal force if necessary. How can one delegate to government a right that one doesn’t have himself? We cannot give what we do not have! Many Christians believe that killing the enemy overseas is commendable, but killing the enemy here at home is wrong. What twisted reasoning arises among God’s people when the study of Scripture is neglected for a generation and replaced with music, drama, psychology and lectures on "How to Feel Good About Yourself." Back to The Book. It is not a pacifist book. God is not a pacifist God. Pacifism allows terror to reign and good people to perish!
Excellent!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 22:26:28
Quote
However, in most states it is a defense to prosecution if you are defending yourself or another person if you shoot center of mass to stop a felony from being committed

If you shoot someone in their "center of mass", right in the middle of their chest, you might say you are trying to stop their action but you are really trying to kill them. What other result could there be? Not many people walk away with a slight wound to the heart.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Wed Nov 19, 2008 - 22:40:42
I would still like to know if passages like Luk 22:36 were admonitions for the disciples to own and use weapons in self defense, why do we repeatedly see the disciples and Apostles in the book of Acts being murdered for their faith without defending themselves?

Truthfully, these interpretations of similar passages seem like a pale attempt to justify gun use from Scripture when according to history self defense and fighting back was not the custom for early Christians. Were all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians wrong for allowing themselves to be martyred for their faith? Can we honestly say the thousands of Christians thrown to the lions and brutally killed during the Roman empire and millions through out history all misunderstand the Scriptures?

Isn't that a little presumptuous?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RAMS on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 00:01:11
4th time.

QUESTION: Should Christians own guns?

ANSWER: Yes

Robert
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 06:37:53
Quote
However, in most states it is a defense to prosecution if you are defending yourself or another person if you shoot center of mass to stop a felony from being committed

If you shoot someone in their "center of mass", right in the middle of their chest, you might say you are trying to stop their action but you are really trying to kill them. What other result could there be? Not many people walk away with a slight wound to the heart.
No, you're intention during an attack is to stop the attacker.  If you're intention is to kill him, then that makes you guilty of murder.  During a panic situation, you will want to aim for the largest target on the human body, that is center mass, the trunk, not a smaller, harder target like the head or leg.  You will fire several shots in rapid succession.  You have to train for this in order to get a CCW permit, at least in this state.  Yes, it's very likely to kill the attacker, no doubt.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bonnie on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 06:59:13
Using a gun does not make you a violent person anymore than using a base ball bat makes you a World Series champion.  A violent person is violent  if he/she owns a gun or not.

Do you own a car?  Well I guess that makes you a NASCAR driver.

So using a gun on a human being made in God's image doesn't constitute an act of violence?

Perhaps you should look at the definition of violence.

By the way, why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy a sword?  Haven't heard much of a response on that one.

I can tell you conclusively from the examples of the Apostles and early disciples, it wasn't that they should defend themselves with force or use weapons to harm others. If not, why do we repeatedly see the disciples and Apostles being murdered for their faith without resistance or a fight?

The only sword the disciples brandished was the sword of the Spirit, for the weapons of their warfare were not carnal.

Amen, that was all they needed.
Good post, Charles.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 07:00:26
4th time.

QUESTION: Should Christians own guns?

ANSWER: Yes

Robert

Robert,

As much as I value your opinions, they are not authoritative.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 07:50:39
There are stories about a pocket bible stopping a bullet.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 07:51:59
If you shoot an animal ... bring it to me for intensive care.
Really?  Even a rabbit?  Do people not eat rabbit in the States at all? ::yummy::

love,

Sopranette


I will treat anything.   Though I don't do resurrections.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:30:07
There are stories about a pocket bible stopping a bullet.


Here's one:

http://www.goodnewsdaily.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5688
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:35:59
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:39:22
Or for that matter, why were they not rebuked for the fact they didn't need to buy one, because they already had one.

Some have tried to say the sword was only figurative.  I think Malchus might take issue with such a misinterpretation.  His ear wasn't lopped off by "troublesome times ahead."


(as to why He wanted to make sure there was a sword, does scripture not say it was to fulfill prophesy, that he would be numbered with the transgressors?)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:43:19
Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Charles, I know you are not a big fan of Rob Bell, but I think you might like his new book, Jesus Came to Save Christians.





Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:48:34
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.


I answered your question with the observation that NO Christians protected themselves from violent harm according to the New Testament. Please feel free to address my post rather than continue to make dogmatic assertions from a single passage.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg574508.html#msg574508
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:49:56
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.


I answered your question with the observation that NO Christians protected themselves from violent harm according to the New Testament. Please feel free to address my post rather than continue to make dogmatic assertions from a single passage.

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg574508.html#msg574508[/url]


So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:52:48
Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Charles, I know you are not a big fan of Rob Bell, but I think you might like his new book, Jesus Came to Save Christians.


Speaking of Rob Bell, I was at a study last night were they closed with a short video of his. And despite my distinct dislike for Rob and his teachings, this particular video was incredibly touching and actually made me cry. I hate when that happens in a crowded Bible study, but at least the lights were off...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9udYp7UOP8A
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 08:57:14
Ok I'll ask another question.

Should Christians own SWORDS?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:01:19
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.


I answered your question with the observation that NO Christians protected themselves from violent harm according to the New Testament. Please feel free to address my post rather than continue to make dogmatic assertions from a single passage.

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg574508.html#msg574508[/url]


So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.  Also, how many passages of scripture does it take to make a statement true.


Why do all the Apostles excluding John die violent deaths without fighting back?

Why does Jesus tell Peter to put up the very sword you claim Jesus gave him permission to use?

Why does Jesus tell Peter to glorify God with a violent death if he is allowed to defend himself?

Why does Stephen get stoned to death without fighting back?

Why does Peter and John both get beaten before the Sanhedrin without fighting back?

Why does Paul get stoned, whipped, beaten, imprisoned unjustly without defending himself?

Why are millions of Christians through history getting martyred?

Your interpretation of a lone passage turns all of Christianity on its head.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:10:29
Your interpretation of a lone passage turns all of Christianity on its head.
No, because a very large portion of Christianity believe that self-defense is at times justifiable, and they believe such based on more than one passage, as has been shown here.

By the way, Paul was protected from his enemies on occasion by armed Roman soldiers for his defense. ::pondering:: 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:10:43
Quote
So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.

On page 17 I gave 4 commentators views on Luke 22:36. Three of them said "buy a sword" meant "bad times are coming.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:11:58
Quote
So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.

On page 17 I gave 4 commentators views on Luke 22:36. Three of them said "buy a sword" meant "bad times are coming.
And Peter did not lop off Malchus' ear with "bad times are coming" so those men aren't dealing well with the text.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:14:59
Your interpretation of a lone passage turns all of Christianity on its head.
No, because a very large portion of Christianity believe that self-defense is at times justifiable, and they believe such based on more than one passage, as has been shown here.


I have seen passages completely twisted and taken out of context, admittedly by the poster.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg572384.html#msg572384

By the way, Paul was protected from his enemies on occasion by armed Roman soldiers for his defense. ::pondering:: 


That may have been because he was a prisoner in custody of the Roman Empire.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:15:30
Quote
By the way, Paul was protected from his enemies on occasion by armed Roman soldiers for his defense

It wasn't the use of swords that protected Paul, it was the possibility of their use. Surrounding Paul with pit bulls, WWF wrasslers or Leona Helmsley clones would have worked, too.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:16:59
Quote
So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.

On page 17 I gave 4 commentators views on Luke 22:36. Three of them said "buy a sword" meant "bad times are coming.
And Peter did not lop off Malchus' ear with "bad times are coming" so those men aren't dealing well with the text.

Please note, Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword and healed Malchus.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:25:01
By the way, Paul was protected from his enemies on occasion by armed Roman soldiers for his defense. ::pondering:: 

That may have been because he was a prisoner in custody of the Roman Empire.
By the providence of God.  His imprisonment at times provided for his protection, and actually led to opportunities to share the Gospel free from physical attack.  If, that is, you believe that it was God's hand working his imprisonment together for good.  Because he was under Roman guard, those who wished to kill him never got the chance, and he was able to teach and write, and even win over some of Caesar's household.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:26:21
Quote
So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.

On page 17 I gave 4 commentators views on Luke 22:36. Three of them said "buy a sword" meant "bad times are coming.
And Peter did not lop off Malchus' ear with "bad times are coming" so those men aren't dealing well with the text.

Please note, Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword and healed Malchus.
Of course.  But you don't get to dodge the fact the sword was real, unless you think Jesus was rebuking Peter for yelling into Malchus' ear that "bad times are ahead." rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:27:07
By the way, Paul was protected from his enemies on occasion by armed Roman soldiers for his defense. ::pondering:: 

That may have been because he was a prisoner in custody of the Roman Empire.
By the providence of God.  His imprisonment at times provided for his protection, and actually led to opportunities to share the Gospel free from physical attack.  If, that is, you believe that it was God's hand working his imprisonment together for good.  Because he was under Roman guard, those who wished to kill him never got the chance, and he was able to teach and write, and even win over some of Caesar's household.

That is very different then what the proponents of gun use are posing here.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:28:11
Quote
So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.

On page 17 I gave 4 commentators views on Luke 22:36. Three of them said "buy a sword" meant "bad times are coming.
And Peter did not lop off Malchus' ear with "bad times are coming" so those men aren't dealing well with the text.

Please note, Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword and healed Malchus.
Of course.  But you don't get to dodge the fact the sword was real, unless you think Jesus was rebuking Peter for yelling into Malchus' ear that "bad times are ahead." rofl

I am not arguing that Peter didn't have a sword, that would be rather obvious.

Its the use of it that is in question here.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:28:19
Quote
By the way, Paul was protected from his enemies on occasion by armed Roman soldiers for his defense

It wasn't the use of swords that protected Paul, it was the possibility of their use. Surrounding Paul with pit bulls, WWF wrasslers or Leona Helmsley clones would have worked, too.
Had God chosen to use them in His providence, perhaps.  If they cannot be owned, the possibility of their use is irrelevant, and ineffective.  You make the other side's argument in this post.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 09:29:22
Quote
So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.

On page 17 I gave 4 commentators views on Luke 22:36. Three of them said "buy a sword" meant "bad times are coming.
And Peter did not lop off Malchus' ear with "bad times are coming" so those men aren't dealing well with the text.

Please note, Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword and healed Malchus.
Of course.  But you don't get to dodge the fact the sword was real, unless you think Jesus was rebuking Peter for yelling into Malchus' ear that "bad times are ahead." rofl

I am not arguing that Peter didn't have a sword, that would be rather obvious.

Its the use of it that is in question here.
Some are.  I should have said "they" not "you."
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 10:53:57
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.


I answered your question with the observation that NO Christians protected themselves from violent harm according to the New Testament. Please feel free to address my post rather than continue to make dogmatic assertions from a single passage.

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg574508.html#msg574508[/url]


So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.  Also, how many passages of scripture does it take to make a statement true.


Why do all the Apostles excluding John die violent deaths without fighting back?

Why does Jesus tell Peter to put up the very sword you claim Jesus gave him permission to use?

Why does Jesus tell Peter to glorify God with a violent death if he is allowed to defend himself?

Why does Stephen get stoned to death without fighting back?

Why does Peter and John both get beaten before the Sanhedrin without fighting back?

Why does Paul get stoned, whipped, beaten, imprisoned unjustly without defending himself?

Why are millions of Christians through history getting martyred?

Your interpretation of a lone passage turns all of Christianity on its head.


I Asked first.  Answer mine and I will answer yours.  It is rather immature to dodge the question with WMD's  (weapons of Mass DISTRACTION)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 11:14:23
I don't know why Jesus told the disciples to buy sword, especially with the fact that none of them used swords to defend themselves during their ministries. I think that it might have something to do with the next verse:

"For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end." -Luk 22:37

So maybe this has something to do with being reckoned among the transgressors.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 11:29:56
I really don't have really strong feelings on this one way or the other. 

There have been a several times when I was out, by myself in a potentially dangerous situations, but in each case, a complete stranger came and helped me in my time of need.  I do trust that God will take care of me. He has so far.
I mean really, what do I have to lose?  The things of this world are temporal.


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 12:23:03
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.


I answered your question with the observation that NO Christians protected themselves from violent harm according to the New Testament. Please feel free to address my post rather than continue to make dogmatic assertions from a single passage.

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg574508.html#msg574508[/url]



They fled Jerusalem.  Does that count as nontrusting God for their protection.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 13:47:13
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.


I answered your question with the observation that NO Christians protected themselves from violent harm according to the New Testament. Please feel free to address my post rather than continue to make dogmatic assertions from a single passage.

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg574508.html#msg574508[/url]



They fled Jerusalem.  Does that count as nontrusting God for their protection.


Based on the reasons given by the anti-personal defense group, yes, they should have put their faith in God.  That's why all those "so-called Christians" were murdered, they didn't have enough faith in God to be their protector.  ::doh::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 14:15:52
None of the anti-gun folks have answered my question yet.

Why did Jesus tell his disciple to buy swords?

And the lack of such an answer only serves to give credit to the observation that YES christians can protect themselves and others from violent harm.


I answered your question with the observation that NO Christians protected themselves from violent harm according to the New Testament. Please feel free to address my post rather than continue to make dogmatic assertions from a single passage.

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg574508.html#msg574508[/url]



They fled Jerusalem.  Does that count as nontrusting God for their protection.


"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. " -Mat 10:23

By the way, jb728b I answered your question to the best of my knowledge.

I am still waiting for your answer, unless that was it...
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 17:43:27
Quote
I do trust that God will take care of me. He has so far.
I mean really, what do I have to lose?  The things of this world are temporal.
 

I trust God also to take care of me.  He takes care of me in life and will take of me if I die doing what I am paid to do or protecting my family or myself.  He gave me the ability to use the hand gun I carry for proper use --not illegal use!  I am confident that I can effectively stop illegal lethal force from being used against person/s who cannot defend themselves or myself because God gave me that ability. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 17:55:56
Quote
I do trust that God will take care of me. He has so far.
I mean really, what do I have to lose?  The things of this world are temporal.
 

I trust God also to take care of me.  He takes care of me in life and will take of me if I die doing what I am paid to do or protecting my family or myself.  He gave me the ability to use the hand gun I carry for proper use --not illegal use!  I am confident that I can effectively stop illegal lethal force from being used against person/s who cannot defend themselves or myself because God gave me that ability. 



Things (like my wife and kids) are temporal.  Perhaps my idea of a male is not biblical?  (protector of their life before the attacker)  At what point does the idea of "coward" "weak" etc come into play?  I don't know.  It takes great courage to face an enemy.  It takes great courage to face an enemy and ... do nothing (?)  or ... be a hero (?)   What is a hero?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 19:03:46
I love how this turned out, since there is obviously no real Scriptural precedent (at least none that I have seen) for using guns or weapons for defense I guess the next step is coral everyone who disagrees with gun use into a camp and call them something like "the anti-personal defense group" then imply they are weak, cowards, who don't care about their families, or legalistic, etc. And all because I just was interested in seeking some Scriptural support for gun use before making a decision.

After 20 pages I think the conclusions here are pretty obvious to anyone, and since I am not going to be branded as a weak coward that doesn't care about my family because I don't believe Jesus would have me packing heat; I'm finished with this exchange.

One final comment, I believe many who believe Jesus would advocate guns might be interested in this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 21:04:26
Quote
I mean really, what do I have to lose?  The things of this world are temporal.

To me this is the key. Don't love this world so much that you will possibly violate God's will in order to spend a few more days here. Shepard your family in such a way that they follow the Lord and know that when their life here is over heaven will be their reward.

Charles started this thread and if he found his answer I am willing to let him bring it to an end.

Peace                   
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Thu Nov 20, 2008 - 22:41:44
Charles, I know you said you were done with this thread, but I hope you at least read this, because I don't think anyone really answered the questions you pose in this post:

I would still like to know if passages like Luk 22:36 were admonitions for the disciples to own and use weapons in self defense, why do we repeatedly see the disciples and Apostles in the book of Acts being murdered for their faith without defending themselves?

Truthfully, these interpretations of similar passages seem like a pale attempt to justify gun use from Scripture when according to history self defense and fighting back was not the custom for early Christians. Were all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians wrong for allowing themselves to be martyred for their faith? Can we honestly say the thousands of Christians thrown to the lions and brutally killed during the Roman empire and millions through out history all misunderstand the Scriptures?

Isn't that a little presumptuous?

I have two answers for you. First, they had a choice. They had swords - we've discussed that already. They could have attempted to defend themselves, but they chose not to. Does their choice preclude ours?

Second, which is more likely, government or religious leaders breaking into your home and dragging you off to be killed for your faith, or someone high on drugs breaking into your home and threatening your wife and children with violence?

You keep talking about martyrdom as if that's what people who own guns think they are protecting themselves from. It's not. They are talking about protecting the innocent from evil people with evil intent. If someone broke into your home and tried to harm your wife or children, and you saw your son's baseball bat laying there, wouldn't you pick it up and lay into that evil man? Wouldn't you use anything you could find to stop him? Or would you just stand there and watch?

The only difference in shooting an intruder and whacking him over the head with a table lamp is the effectiveness of the weapon.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Fri Nov 21, 2008 - 10:33:08
I love how this turned out, since there is obviously no real Scriptural precedent (at least none that I have seen) for using guns or weapons for defense I guess the next step is coral everyone who disagrees with gun use into a camp and call them something like "the anti-personal defense group" then imply they are weak, cowards, who don't care about their families, or legalistic, etc. And all because I just was interested in seeking some Scriptural support for gun use before making a decision.

After 20 pages I think the conclusions here are pretty obvious to anyone, and since I am not going to be branded as a weak coward that doesn't care about my family because I don't believe Jesus would have me packing heat; I'm finished with this exchange.

One final comment, I believe many who believe Jesus would advocate guns might be interested in this article:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity[/url]




Wee bit sensitive?   

I bring up the words coward, weak, sissy, strong, safety, protector in the context of being a hero and I asked what is a hero because I want to know what my wife and children would need from me.   How would I best be their hero?   What scenario would make them see a hero and what would make them see a zero?

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bonnie on Fri Nov 21, 2008 - 11:29:39
I love how this turned out, since there is obviously no real Scriptural precedent (at least none that I have seen) for using guns or weapons for defense I guess the next step is coral everyone who disagrees with gun use into a camp and call them something like "the anti-personal defense group" then imply they are weak, cowards, who don't care about their families, or legalistic, etc. And all because I just was interested in seeking some Scriptural support for gun use before making a decision.

After 20 pages I think the conclusions here are pretty obvious to anyone, and since I am not going to be branded as a weak coward that doesn't care about my family because I don't believe Jesus would have me packing heat; I'm finished with this exchange.

One final comment, I believe many who believe Jesus would advocate guns might be interested in this article:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity[/url]


Wise decision, Charles, and I believe a Biblical one.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Sun Nov 23, 2008 - 16:35:37
We should not own guns, we should go and by swords.  Jesus told his disciples to do just that.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Nov 23, 2008 - 16:48:04
Matthew  5:5   Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 

5:9   Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.   
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: llewksgood on Mon Nov 24, 2008 - 18:04:40
I have not read the 300+ posts here, and am commenting on the initial question.

Ownership is a personal thing, if we are forced to, we can always excuse ourselves.

My initial response was, what on earth for? I'm sure there are plenty of practical reasons, but are they Scriptural?

I have a friend who, like myself was inducted into our home forces (Rhodesia) during an internal warfare. All Gary ever wanted to do was tell people about Jesus -- what a guy!

During a skirmish with the enemy Gary went missing and, when they found him he was seated with one of them, with his Bible open, sharing our need to believe in Jesus Christ. Both had laid their weapons down. This act got Gary a dishonorable discharge, but another soul was saved.

I went witnessing with Gary. He would cross the road to be sure you were saved.

I think its more important for a Christian to own a Bible.

I find no dishonor in Gary.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: heavenlyinvestor on Mon Nov 24, 2008 - 18:12:13
I'm a Christian, I'm also a cop.  Enough said.............
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Mon Nov 24, 2008 - 19:40:11
I'm a Christian, I'm also a cop.  Enough said.............
Welcome!  :)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Corbley on Mon Nov 24, 2008 - 22:15:31
We should not own guns, we should go and by swords.  Jesus told his disciples to do just that.
If guns, were around when Christ was on earth,    My GUESS is the Apostles would have carried a gun .
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 07:14:15
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 07:41:20
"Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations." << ::pondering::



(not a comment on whether or not Christians should own a gun, just one on whether or not Jesus ever uses a "sword" to use against "anyone". ::wink::)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimmy on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 07:49:29
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.

But His disciples did and He condoned it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 07:52:33
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.

But His disciples did and He condoned it.
What did Jesus say to Peter about his sword?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 08:00:29
"Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations." << ::pondering::



(not a comment on whether or not Christians should own a gun, just one on whether or not Jesus ever uses a "sword" to use against "anyone". ::wink::)
Yah, right. 
Actually, I have no problem with Christians owning guns. 
It all depends on what you're using it for and why you own it. 
It's one of those things that I think is between God and us. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimmy on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 08:02:17
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.

But His disciples did and He condoned it.
What did Jesus say to Peter about his sword?

He gave Peter some good advice, but it is clear that he had not taught them the pacifism that you seem to think. In fact what Jesus said to Peter was not so much against using the sword (He told Peter to put it back, not throw it away) as it was a rebuke for not understanding that Jesus did not need Peter to defend him against what was about to happen.  As Jesus said, He could simply call on God to do that if that were what he wanted (Matt 26:53).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 08:03:13
"Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations." << ::pondering::



(not a comment on whether or not Christians should own a gun, just one on whether or not Jesus ever uses a "sword" to use against "anyone". ::wink::)
Yah, right. 
Actually, I have no problem with Christians owning guns. 
It all depends on what you're using it for and why you own it. 
It's one of those things that I think is between God and us. 
We will all answer to God and give an account, and all must live within conscience.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: llewksgood on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 12:20:05
Isn't it interesting how the debate over the ownership of guns can become so endless and, yes, I can add to the debate. I do not think the issue important enough to quarrel over.

In Acts 5 we read of Ananias and Sapphira who, having sold some property, laid the money at the disciples feet. We know they died, having kept back a part. Why did they die, because they withheld what was theirs? Peter told them it was their money, and they were free to do with it as they would. They could have kept it all if they had wished. They were judged because they lied at an important time of the Holy Ghost.

I see the ownership of guns like this. Its your property, do with it as you wish. You don't have to call me weak, or a coward because I don't own one. Its my choice. Ever since the dawn of time man has been given the privilege to choose, and some choices are simply that: choices.

Some choices are made in our choice of careers -- like our policeman. On the other hand, those who choose to ask God to protect them are not wrong in their choice. Most likely you will need him at some point.

King Asa, in the Book of Chronicles, worshipped God and had a time of peace. During that time of peace he built up Judah's defenses (kinda like owning guns), and God did not rebuke him for this. The first enemy that comes against him is a million strong, and Asa fears his defenses are not enough. Fortunately he trusts God, and his enemies are overcome. But this incident makes Asa fear unnecessarily and, when he next is attacked he neither trusts God, nor his defenses. We can all read his bitterness, and unfortunate end.

Owning a gun may not be enough to defend yourself and your family when the time comes but, by all means, have one if you so desire. Just remember, it is better to trust the Lord.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 12:23:49
Very good post, llewksgood.  Thank you.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 12:47:21
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.

I guess a whip doesn't count when he used one on the money changers in the temple complex.  Maybe we should all buy whips.

Hmm Swords and whips!  Who needs a gun!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 12:52:45
There are stories about a pocket bible stopping a bullet.


Here's one:

[url]http://www.goodnewsdaily.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5688[/url]




There was a man on the news last week that had a cell phone stop a hunter's stray bullet.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 12:54:32
Quote
So why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?  You didn't answer that question in the post you listed.

On page 17 I gave 4 commentators views on Luke 22:36. Three of them said "buy a sword" meant "bad times are coming.
And Peter did not lop off Malchus' ear with "bad times are coming" so those men aren't dealing well with the text.

Please note, Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword and healed Malchus.

He was trying to stop them from arresting Jesus, and thus unknowingly, from the cross.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 12:57:04
Matthew  5:5   Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 

5:9   Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.   



Blessed are those who allow their women to be raped and their men beheaded.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 12:58:37
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.


Nor was he married.  etc etc etc etc etc
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 13:00:30
Charles, I know you said you were done with this thread, but I hope you at least read this, because I don't think anyone really answered the questions you pose in this post:

I would still like to know if passages like Luk 22:36 were admonitions for the disciples to own and use weapons in self defense, why do we repeatedly see the disciples and Apostles in the book of Acts being murdered for their faith without defending themselves?

Truthfully, these interpretations of similar passages seem like a pale attempt to justify gun use from Scripture when according to history self defense and fighting back was not the custom for early Christians. Were all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians wrong for allowing themselves to be martyred for their faith? Can we honestly say the thousands of Christians thrown to the lions and brutally killed during the Roman empire and millions through out history all misunderstand the Scriptures?

Isn't that a little presumptuous?

I have two answers for you. First, they had a choice. They had swords - we've discussed that already. They could have attempted to defend themselves, but they chose not to. Does their choice preclude ours?

Second, which is more likely, government or religious leaders breaking into your home and dragging you off to be killed for your faith, or someone high on drugs breaking into your home and threatening your wife and children with violence?

You keep talking about martyrdom as if that's what people who own guns think they are protecting themselves from. It's not. They are talking about protecting the innocent from evil people with evil intent. If someone broke into your home and tried to harm your wife or children, and you saw your son's baseball bat laying there, wouldn't you pick it up and lay into that evil man? Wouldn't you use anything you could find to stop him? Or would you just stand there and watch?

The only difference in shooting an intruder and whacking him over the head with a table lamp is the effectiveness of the weapon.



I missed this.  Well said.  But it does require looking beyond oneself.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 13:05:08
In other words, this has nothing to do really with guns.  It has to do with THE "christian" response to innocence confronted with life threatening violence.  One response to being confronted with a life threatening response to oneself.  Another in the protection of anybody else - spouse, child, friends, enemies, ...
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 18:10:55
heavenlyinvestor,

Welcome to the forum!  I have carried a firearm on the job for 25 years in nuclear security and had the priviledge of working closely with alot of LEO's over the years from the state level down to county.  Glad to have you with us!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: llewksgood on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 18:12:58
Sorry, I got interrupted, and had to go to work. Am home for a late breakfast now (10:30am Aus time). Just as I was leaving this passage of Scripture came to mind.


Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for you body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body more than raiment?

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow, reap, or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you notmuch better than they?

Which one of you can add a single cubit to your height by thinking hard on it? (Can you get the picture? There you are: eyes shut tight, face red with strain, trembling with effort, thinking, "I'm growing, I'm growing." You know nothing's going to happen.)

And why are you worried about your clothes? Watch the wild flowers as they grow, they neither toil nor spin. Yet, I tell you, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. So, If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is burned in the oven tomorrow, will he not clothe you even better, o little faiths?

Therefore don't think top yourselves, what's to eat, or drink; or, what shall I wear? [The Gentiles are worried about these things.] Your Heavenly Father knows all the things you need.

So, first concern yourself with the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these will be added to you.

Do not concern yourself with tomorrow, it can take care of itself. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6:25 - 34.

Dare we say it, if God can feed, and clothe you, can he not also protect you?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for owning a gun? Who's to say your family will have such an intruder as is mentioned here in this forum?

Once again, if you want to own a gun, feel free, just don't ask me to pay for it. You already know my answer.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 19:15:28
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.

I guess a whip doesn't count when he used one on the money changers in the temple complex.  Maybe we should all buy whips.

Hmm Swords and whips!  Who needs a gun!
Do you ever see any Jesus or any of the disciples using deadly force with a whip or a sword?

Actually a whip or baseball bat may not be a bad idea.  My hubby sleeps with a hunting knife.  I ask him why. He says just in case I decide to attack him during the night. :)
 
For those of you who have guns in the home, generally it's recommended that you keep the gun in one place and the ammo somewhere else, preferably locked up if you have kids in the home.  Although, it wouldn't do you much good against an intruder in that circumstance. 

Quote
Nearly 500 [U.S.] children and teenagers each year are killed in gun-related accidents.
About 1,500 commit suicide.
Nearly 7,000 violent crimes are committed each year by juveniles using guns they found in their own homes.

    * Every day, about 75 American children are shot. Most recover — 15 do not.

    * The majority of fatal accidents involving a firearm occur in the home.

    * Gunshot wounds are the single most common cause of death for women in the home, accounting for nearly half of all homicides and 42 percent of suicides.

    * An adolescent is twice as likely to commit suicide if a gun is kept in the home.

    * More teenage boys in America die from gunfire than from car accidents.

    * Gunshot wounds are now the leading cause of death for teenage boys in America (white, African-American, urban, and suburban).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 19:47:14
Sorry, I got interrupted, and had to go to work. Am home for a late breakfast now (10:30am Aus time). Just as I was leaving this passage of Scripture came to mind.



Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow, reap, or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you notmuch better than they?

Which one of you can add a single cubit to your height by thinking hard on it? (Can you get the picture? There you are: eyes shut tight, face red with strain, trembling with effort, thinking, "I'm growing, I'm growing." You know nothing's going to happen.)

And why are you worried about your clothes? Watch the wild flowers as they grow, they neither toil nor spin. Yet, I tell you, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. So, If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is burned in the oven tomorrow, will he not clothe you even better, o little faiths?

Therefore don't think top yourselves, what's to eat, or drink; or, what shall I wear? [The Gentiles are worried about these things.] Your Heavenly Father knows all the things you need.

So, first concern yourself with the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these will be added to you.

Once again, if you want to own a gun, feel free, just don't ask me to pay for it. You already know my answer.
Well, whether using deadly force is appropriate for protecting property is debatable.  I got into a very long debate over that on another forum.  I for one wouldn't.  Someone stealing my car?  Have at it, buddy.  I've got insurance. This thread has been primarily about self protection, though.  My views on that have already been expressed.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Tue Nov 25, 2008 - 20:52:27
Quote
  For those of you who have guns in the home, generally it's recommended that you keep the gun in one place and the ammo somewhere else, preferably locked up if you have kids in the home.   

No offense, but that suggestion gets more people killed than keeping a loaded gun in a  place accessible by adults.

The safest thing for people with children at home is what we did with our girls.  We live very rural and there is no fast response from anyone when one is in trouble.  So loaded firearms in key places are an absolute must for the safety of family (we have a large number itinerrant workers and illegals in our area!).  We never allowed our girls to play with toy guns and we barred their friends from bringing toy guns into our home or on our property.  Why?  Because we taught our daughters that ALL guns are real and they are loaded until an adult tells them the gun is not loaded and that they were not to touch a gun at anytime unless WE were with them and gave them permission.  We put them through hunter safety courses and firearms safety trainings at very early ages.  We taught them to hunt and shoot if they had that desire.  We never once had a problem with our daughters and we made a point of warning parents who brought their kids over that we had loaded guns for protection in key spots and that if their kid so much as tried to look at one of them, they would receive instant corporal punishment.  Not one parent disagreed with that statement!!!

One other comment:  Jesus had no need for weapons personally because:  (1) His disciples carried the short personal swords or long knives used by fishermen (all fishermen carried long knives) and (2)--the really important reason--  Jesus said he had legions of angels at his command to protect him if he needed them.  What more can anyone ask for!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 08:13:53
Since Christians are suppose to do exactly as Jesus Christ did, in their everyday lives.......Jesus never carried a weapon to do any harm to anyone one, at anytime.

I guess a whip doesn't count when he used one on the money changers in the temple complex.  Maybe we should all buy whips.

Hmm Swords and whips!  Who needs a gun!
Do you ever see any Jesus or any of the disciples using deadly force with a whip or a sword?

Actually a whip or baseball bat may not be a bad idea.  My hubby sleeps with a hunting knife.  I ask him why. He says just in case I decide to attack him during the night. :)
 
For those of you who have guns in the home, generally it's recommended that you keep the gun in one place and the ammo somewhere else, preferably locked up if you have kids in the home.  Although, it wouldn't do you much good against an intruder in that circumstance. 

Quote
Nearly 500 [U.S.] children and teenagers each year are killed in gun-related accidents.
About 1,500 commit suicide.
Nearly 7,000 violent crimes are committed each year by juveniles using guns they found in their own homes.

    * Every day, about 75 American children are shot. Most recover — 15 do not.

    * The majority of fatal accidents involving a firearm occur in the home.

    * Gunshot wounds are the single most common cause of death for women in the home, accounting for nearly half of all homicides and 42 percent of suicides.

    * An adolescent is twice as likely to commit suicide if a gun is kept in the home.

    * More teenage boys in America die from gunfire than from car accidents.

    * Gunshot wounds are now the leading cause of death for teenage boys in America (white, African-American, urban, and suburban).

If you would please note to what I was responding to. The poster said that Jesus never carried a weapon or harmed anyone. I'm sorry but a whip IS a weapon and chasing someone around with "whips a-blazing"  constitutes a use of force.

Who said anything about deadly force?  I didn't.  That being said, a whip, regardless of it's size, can inflict a whole world of hurt on a grown man.  At the very least, he could have put out an eye with that thing.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 10:23:48
Sorry, I got interrupted, and had to go to work. Am home for a late breakfast now (10:30am Aus time). Just as I was leaving this passage of Scripture came to mind.


Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for you body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body more than raiment?

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow, reap, or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you notmuch better than they?

Which one of you can add a single cubit to your height by thinking hard on it? (Can you get the picture? There you are: eyes shut tight, face red with strain, trembling with effort, thinking, "I'm growing, I'm growing." You know nothing's going to happen.)

And why are you worried about your clothes? Watch the wild flowers as they grow, they neither toil nor spin. Yet, I tell you, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. So, If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is burned in the oven tomorrow, will he not clothe you even better, o little faiths?

Therefore don't think top yourselves, what's to eat, or drink; or, what shall I wear? [The Gentiles are worried about these things.] Your Heavenly Father knows all the things you need.

So, first concern yourself with the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these will be added to you.

Do not concern yourself with tomorrow, it can take care of itself. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6:25 - 34.

Dare we say it, if God can feed, and clothe you, can he not also protect you?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for owning a gun? Who's to say your family will have such an intruder as is mentioned here in this forum?

Once again, if you want to own a gun, feel free, just don't ask me to pay for it. You already know my answer.



Hopefully, none of us will ever experience violence.  Those that have hoped for the same.  I would like to hear from those who have experienced violence and what they wished they had done differently (whatever it may be) in order to have changed the outcome.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 11:29:41
Yes, Wiley, but we know those angels would use only non-lethal methods of resistance. 
II Kings 19:35,36
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 12:00:45
Yes, Wiley, but we know those angels would use only non-lethal methods of resistance. 
II Kings 19:35,36

OLD COVENANT ALERT! STOP. God=Wrath in OT.  STOP.  God=Love in NT.  STOP.  Throw out OT.  STOP.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 12:04:32
::doh:: 

--------------

We're not the only ones talking about this dilemma.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/11/make-sure-youre-covered.html
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 12:35:29
what about nail guns?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 13:08:53
what about nail guns?

Pure evil.  I can't even own a glue gun.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 13:09:42
Quote
  For those of you who have guns in the home, generally it's recommended that you keep the gun in one place and the ammo somewhere else, preferably locked up if you have kids in the home.   

No offense, but that suggestion gets more people killed than keeping a loaded gun in a  place accessible by adults.

The safest thing for people with children at home is what we did with our girls.  We live very rural and there is no fast response from anyone when one is in trouble.  So loaded firearms in key places are an absolute must for the safety of family (we have a large number itinerrant workers and illegals in our area!).  We never allowed our girls to play with toy guns and we barred their friends from bringing toy guns into our home or on our property.  Why?  Because we taught our daughters that ALL guns are real and they are loaded until an adult tells them the gun is not loaded and that they were not to touch a gun at anytime unless WE were with them and gave them permission.  We put them through hunter safety courses and firearms safety trainings at very early ages.  We taught them to hunt and shoot if they had that desire.  We never once had a problem with our daughters and we made a point of warning parents who brought their kids over that we had loaded guns for protection in key spots and that if their kid so much as tried to look at one of them, they would receive instant corporal punishment.  Not one parent disagreed with that statement!!!

One other comment:  Jesus had no need for weapons personally because:  (1) His disciples carried the short personal swords or long knives used by fishermen (all fishermen carried long knives) and (2)--the really important reason--  Jesus said he had legions of angels at his command to protect him if he needed them.  What more can anyone ask for!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had cap guns, pellet guns, etc.  But I was taught about guns, took hunter's safety, went shooting with my dad, etc.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 16:04:08
Gary,

A pellet gun is deadly force!  A cap gun may be make believe force but don't point it at someone who carries a gun for a living.  You can't tell the difference between many toy guns and real guns and it doesn't matter what the age of the holder is if one believes they are about to be shot and they have the ability to prevent it.

We had an incident at the plant about 18 years ago while unit 2 was still under construction.  The man who pulled this was an idiot for even thinking it.  It was the last work day before halloween and he came to work wearing camo fatigues and carrying his son's toy Uzi.  When he entered brass shack coming in, a worker saw the toy gun, notified security, and we responded in about two minutes.  As one of our officers entered the shack through one door and another through another door, the 1st saw the toy Uzi, thought it was real, and was in the process of drawing to fire on the man when the other officer recognized the toy as a toy and was able to give a verbal command to stop, yelling it's a toy!

people have died over the years because of toys pointed at law enforcement officers in dim light that looked very realistic!  I grew up with cap guns, etc, but we chose to not allow toys in the house to re-enforce our teaching that all guns are real untilled proven otherwise and that all guns should be considered loaded until proven to be cleared of ammunition.

It's part of the firearms safety code we hold to at work:
1)  all guns are loaded until proven otherwise
2)  never point a gun, regardless of type, at anyone you are not willing to destroy,
Plus some more rules!

I train with MILES gear at work.  The gear we use is more sophisticated than the junk the government uses and it's hard to tell the difference from a distance.  We shoot at each other using blanks that have been carefully made and we exercise extreme caution, safety, and care when going into the field because of real weapons being present.  Children don't normally have those controlled conditions and that can lead to confusion.  I'm not saying that every parent should deny their child the right to play with a toy gun, but extreme care must be take and, for us, that was excluding any toy gun other than an obvious orange colored water pistol!

It's a shame that all kids who make it to the 6th grade are not automatically enrolled in NRA gun safety courses and/or state sponsored Hunter Safety Programs.  It would take a big bite out of the safety related firearms incidents involving children!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: llewksgood on Thu Nov 27, 2008 - 12:26:45

Hopefully, none of us will ever experience violence.  Those that have hoped for the same.  I would like to hear from those who have experienced violence and what they wished they had done differently (whatever it may be) in order to have changed the outcome.

Zoonance, I accept your charge that I have not suffered violence, but I have been in some dangerous situations. I lived during a civil war in Rhodesia, and fulfilled compulsory military duty. We had a break and enter when I was about 17. The culprit came right up to the head of my bed. I was untouched, and slept on unnoticing. After the war, and Zimbabwe's independence I faced political youth gangs intent on harming me simply because I'm white, yet came away unscathed. No, I didn't talk my way out of it. Actually, I was kind of puzzled at the result.

I do not wish that I had done things differently. I do not wish I was carrying a gun [which would have most likely aggravated the situation]. I'm just glad that I have God's protection every day.

We were just married, and living in this volitile political situation, and my wife [who did martial arts] was so convinced that I would be unable to protect her insisted on walking in the middle of the road, along the dotted white line. To me we looked ridiculous, and I said, "We may not get mugged, but we're likely to get run over by a bus." Fear makes you do stupid things.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Thu Nov 27, 2008 - 14:00:46
 On this thread I've seen people try to make a disticntion between murder, and "Thou shalt not Kill".

 Murder, they say, is a premeditated act.
 Yet, killing is different.

I usually like to let the Bible decide such things for me.
 Matthew  5:21   Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 
  5:22   But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.  

Take the case of Cain and Abel...... this is exactly what Jesus was talking about......

Genesis  4:1   And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 
  4:2   And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 
  4:3   And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 
  4:4   And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 
  4:5   But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 
  4:6   And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 
  4:7   If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 
  4:8   And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.   

In case you may not know it...the old english word, for being angry....is wroth.
 SO, Cain killed his brother Abel, in a fit of anger.

I just wanted to point that out.
 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Thu Nov 27, 2008 - 19:21:28
On this thread I've seen people try to make a disticntion between murder, and "Thou shalt not Kill".

 Murder, they say, is a premeditated act.
 Yet, killing is different.

I usually like to let the Bible decide such things for me.
 Matthew  5:21   Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 


.   

In case you may not know it...the old english word, for being angry....is wroth.
 SO, Cain killed his brother Abel, in a fit of anger.

I just wanted to point that out.


So your point is that Cain killed out of anger and did not committ murder?

And in Matthew 5:21 are you saying that the KJV is correct in that Jesus said "do not kill" and that "murder" is not in the picture?

The NRSV, which is a more accurate translation than the old KJV, uses the word "murder". 
"phoneuo", which is one of the Greek words for murder and this is used by Matthew relating what Jesus said.  So Jesus was talking about murder, not killing.  There is a difference, especially when the intent is considered.

The other word for murder is "authentien" which is mistranslated/misapplied in 1 Tim 2 to refer to "have authority over".  Recent research using a data base by Leland Edward Wilshire’s “The TIG Computer and Further Reference to authentein in 1 Timothy 2:12,
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Fri Nov 28, 2008 - 00:07:06
Sorry, I got interrupted, and had to go to work. Am home for a late breakfast now (10:30am Aus time). Just as I was leaving this passage of Scripture came to mind.


Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for you body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body more than raiment?

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow, reap, or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you notmuch better than they?

Which one of you can add a single cubit to your height by thinking hard on it? (Can you get the picture? There you are: eyes shut tight, face red with strain, trembling with effort, thinking, "I'm growing, I'm growing." You know nothing's going to happen.)

And why are you worried about your clothes? Watch the wild flowers as they grow, they neither toil nor spin. Yet, I tell you, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. So, If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is burned in the oven tomorrow, will he not clothe you even better, o little faiths?

Therefore don't think top yourselves, what's to eat, or drink; or, what shall I wear? [The Gentiles are worried about these things.] Your Heavenly Father knows all the things you need.

So, first concern yourself with the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these will be added to you.

Do not concern yourself with tomorrow, it can take care of itself. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6:25 - 34.

Dare we say it, if God can feed, and clothe you, can he not also protect you?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for owning a gun? Who's to say your family will have such an intruder as is mentioned here in this forum?

Once again, if you want to own a gun, feel free, just don't ask me to pay for it. You already know my answer.

Can you see that the same argument can be made from these scriptures about working for a living?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for holding a job? Who's to say your family will have a need for the money you earn? Don't you trust God to provide for all of your needs? If He can protect you from an intruder can't He provide the food and clothing your family needs?

If you want to work for a living, feel free, just don't ask me to get a job!






Or wait. Could it be? Is there the slimmest possibility that God is providing for my family's needs through my job? What a thought! But if it's true, then maybe, just maybe, God could provide for my family's protection through gun ownership?

Surely not.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Fri Nov 28, 2008 - 17:27:54
What MIGHT have been different if somebody else would have had a gun in that hotel in India this week? at Columbine? etc.  What if EVERYBODY was packing a gun?  Probably more shootings out of anger?  or would restraint actually be encouraged because of the real likelyhood that the angry person would not escape serious consequences either?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Fri Nov 28, 2008 - 18:17:12
::shrug::

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Imabear on Fri Nov 28, 2008 - 19:20:19
::shrug::

[url]http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html[/url]
It's a sad day when you need an armed security guard in a church.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Fri Nov 28, 2008 - 21:23:49
Indeed it is.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jaime on Fri Nov 28, 2008 - 21:29:36
::shrug::

[url]http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html[/url]
It's a sad day when you need an armed security guard in a church.


It's a sadder day to realize you shoulda had one.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 08:34:36
My brother is a member of that church and missed the gunman by less than 5 minutes both in the building and in the parking lot (that's a story to itself!).  The gunman was stopped by a volunteer serving as a security guard who had a concealed carry license.  If she had not been there to put a stop to that psycho-perp's forward movement into this mega church, there would have been mega casualities.

Christians do indeed have a right to carry firearms legally as the law allows.  Elders have a duty as the shepherds of the flock to see to it that the flock can gather safely.  No shepherd at the time of Jesus would have ever taken a flock of sheep to graze with out carrying a weapon of some sort to protect the flock.  There was another church shooting just the other day that hit the news, so the threat is still there and it will get worse, especially in a time of changing leadership nationally and a failing economy.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 12:43:54
 A True believer in Jesus Christ would not own a gun......that is, if they knew what the principles of Christianity, really are.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 14:53:50
A True believer in Jesus Christ would not own a gun......that is, if they knew what the principles of Christianity, really are.

Poppycock!

That's like saying:  "A true believer in Jesus Christ would not work....that is, if they knew what the principles of Christianity, really are."

Or

"A true believer in Jesus Christ would not own a kitchen knife....that is, if they knew what the principles of Christianity, really are."

or


"A true believer in Jesus Christ would not own a can opener....that is, if they knew what the principles of Christianity, really are."

I own a gun, and it is going to be used for food, much like a kitchen knife or a can opener.  You are already advocating doctrines of demons, I guess it's not much more to advocate more sins, or an un-biblical demarcation of who and who is not a Christian.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 15:24:31
I honestly heard somewhere that 3am in the morning is a paranormal something or other (kind of satanic I think).  People were calling in and saying that they often awoke at 3am.   Anybody else ever heard that before.    (Not suggesting anything 3AM)  But I really did hear about this.  By the way, when I heard that I often wondered why I too always seemed to wake up and look at the clock at 3:00 am. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 16:23:19
A true believer wakes up a 3:16 in the morning...that is, if they knew what the principles of Christianity, really are.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 17:13:39
Nah, a REAL believer wakes up at 2:38, in order to prepare for 3:00 while going back to sleep because we rest by 3:16.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 17:16:11
Waking up at 2:38 is a work.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 17:16:54
Not if it was predestined.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 17:29:13
Who has to wake up at 3AM?  If the real truth be known a true believer is already awake, even at 2:38 in the  morning having not been to bed because of being ever vigilant by keeping the lamps all trimed and bright!  Being a true believer and knowing how important it is to be awake at those times, I often volunteer to work over on the night shift just so I can be awake at those times and get off work about 3:30AM so I can go to bed at 4:30AM and get my required 4 hours of sleep because a true believer has to get his weapons all shiney starting at 8:30AM to be ready for the next night's busy time!

 rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 17:36:32
I wonder what would happen if somebody googled 3:00 am to see what popped up.  Perhaps those who are already awake are the real vigilant ones!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 17:43:59
Wow!  I did google 3AM.  I was right about there being at least enough information about 3:00 am and satan's work on the internet ... so it must be accurate!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Memphis Dwight on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 19:02:07
A christian man has the responsibility of protecting his house and family.  Gen 2:15
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: mike on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 21:27:08
A christian man has the responsibility of protecting his house and family.  Gen 2:15

Unless they are girlie men.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 21:40:36
True Christians wake up at 7:28b.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Nov 29, 2008 - 21:58:10
True Christians wake up at 7:28b.


rofl   Touche!  ::swordfight::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Nov 30, 2008 - 08:42:41
3AM: stands for the 3 a ngels m  essages of Revelation 14:6-16.
 The EverLasting Gospel.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: llewksgood on Sun Nov 30, 2008 - 12:09:51
Sorry, I got interrupted, and had to go to work. Am home for a late breakfast now (10:30am Aus time). Just as I was leaving this passage of Scripture came to mind.


Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for you body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body more than raiment?

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow, reap, or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you notmuch better than they?

Which one of you can add a single cubit to your height by thinking hard on it? (Can you get the picture? There you are: eyes shut tight, face red with strain, trembling with effort, thinking, "I'm growing, I'm growing." You know nothing's going to happen.)

And why are you worried about your clothes? Watch the wild flowers as they grow, they neither toil nor spin. Yet, I tell you, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. So, If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is burned in the oven tomorrow, will he not clothe you even better, o little faiths?

Therefore don't think top yourselves, what's to eat, or drink; or, what shall I wear? [The Gentiles are worried about these things.] Your Heavenly Father knows all the things you need.

So, first concern yourself with the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these will be added to you.

Do not concern yourself with tomorrow, it can take care of itself. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6:25 - 34.

Dare we say it, if God can feed, and clothe you, can he not also protect you?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for owning a gun? Who's to say your family will have such an intruder as is mentioned here in this forum?

Once again, if you want to own a gun, feel free, just don't ask me to pay for it. You already know my answer.

Can you see that the same argument can be made from these scriptures about working for a living?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for holding a job? Who's to say your family will have a need for the money you earn? Don't you trust God to provide for all of your needs? If He can protect you from an intruder can't He provide the food and clothing your family needs?

If you want to work for a living, feel free, just don't ask me to get a job!






Or wait. Could it be? Is there the slimmest possibility that God is providing for my family's needs through my job? What a thought! But if it's true, then maybe, just maybe, God could provide for my family's protection through gun ownership?

Surely not.



You are quite correct, and I do.

I wouldn't ask you to get a job. It's your life. However, if you wanted me to support you, you'd have to wait till I felt to, and could afford to.

I'm not against people owning guns, I just don't like people calling me a coward because I choose not to own one. Choice is free.

By faith some received back their dead, by faith others died [Hebrews 11]. I'm just pointing out that some of us see things differently than others.

My friend, Martin, back when I was about 15, went hunting and took a 12 year old son of his servant as his gun bearer - to carry extras so that he could choose a shot he felt appropriate for the game he was shooting.

During 1 trip he heard his young friend say, "Martin, look."

He turned, and saw the rifle pointed in his direction and, realising it was loaded, and off safety in case he needed a quick exchange and shot, warned, "No, don't."

It was too late. That day Martin became paralyzed.

I asked him later if he would do anything differently, or if he blamed his friend.

He said, "No, it was just an unfortunate accident. There's no reason to regret. It doesn't change things anyway. I would still be doing it the same way if this hadn't happened."

I don't know if Martin still hunts. I don't know how easy it would be from a wheelchair. He and I had a lot of fun both before and after the accident. Is there any good in feeling sorry for yourself?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: mikeyjc on Sun Nov 30, 2008 - 18:36:16

I'd rather Christians stick to their guns when it comes to the conviction of their beliefs concerning our God rather than own them.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 09:22:26
3AM: stands for the 3 a ngels m  essages of Revelation 14:6-16.
 The EverLasting Gospel.



That sure beats the google search!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 09:31:14
Sorry, I got interrupted, and had to go to work. Am home for a late breakfast now (10:30am Aus time). Just as I was leaving this passage of Scripture came to mind.


Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for you body, what you shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body more than raiment?

Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow, reap, or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you notmuch better than they?

Which one of you can add a single cubit to your height by thinking hard on it? (Can you get the picture? There you are: eyes shut tight, face red with strain, trembling with effort, thinking, "I'm growing, I'm growing." You know nothing's going to happen.)

And why are you worried about your clothes? Watch the wild flowers as they grow, they neither toil nor spin. Yet, I tell you, Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. So, If God so clothes the grass of the field, which grows today and is burned in the oven tomorrow, will he not clothe you even better, o little faiths?

Therefore don't think top yourselves, what's to eat, or drink; or, what shall I wear? [The Gentiles are worried about these things.] Your Heavenly Father knows all the things you need.

So, first concern yourself with the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these will be added to you.

Do not concern yourself with tomorrow, it can take care of itself. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6:25 - 34.

Dare we say it, if God can feed, and clothe you, can he not also protect you?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for owning a gun? Who's to say your family will have such an intruder as is mentioned here in this forum?

Once again, if you want to own a gun, feel free, just don't ask me to pay for it. You already know my answer.

Can you see that the same argument can be made from these scriptures about working for a living?

Is your concern for an unknown future a sound reason for holding a job? Who's to say your family will have a need for the money you earn? Don't you trust God to provide for all of your needs? If He can protect you from an intruder can't He provide the food and clothing your family needs?

If you want to work for a living, feel free, just don't ask me to get a job!






Or wait. Could it be? Is there the slimmest possibility that God is providing for my family's needs through my job? What a thought! But if it's true, then maybe, just maybe, God could provide for my family's protection through gun ownership?

Surely not.



You are quite correct, and I do.

I wouldn't ask you to get a job. It's your life. However, if you wanted me to support you, you'd have to wait till I felt to, and could afford to.

I'm not against people owning guns, I just don't like people calling me a coward because I choose not to own one. Choice is free.

By faith some received back their dead, by faith others died [Hebrews 11]. I'm just pointing out that some of us see things differently than others.

My friend, Martin, back when I was about 15, went hunting and took a 12 year old son of his servant as his gun bearer - to carry extras so that he could choose a shot he felt appropriate for the game he was shooting.

During 1 trip he heard his young friend say, "Martin, look."

He turned, and saw the rifle pointed in his direction and, realising it was loaded, and off safety in case he needed a quick exchange and shot, warned, "No, don't."

It was too late. That day Martin became paralyzed.

I asked him later if he would do anything differently, or if he blamed his friend.

He said, "No, it was just an unfortunate accident. There's no reason to regret. It doesn't change things anyway. I would still be doing it the same way if this hadn't happened."

I don't know if Martin still hunts. I don't know how easy it would be from a wheelchair. He and I had a lot of fun both before and after the accident. Is there any good in feeling sorry for yourself?



I don't think anybody is calling anybody a coward for not owning a gun.  The word coward came up when the idea of not giving up "YOU" in order to save the innocent, especially your own family.  (You = your own life, your 'convictions' -assuming they don't violate scripture of course, etc.  that kind of thing)       

Beside the run and hide coward, leaving the family at the mercy of the bad guy while dad hides in a closet (we aren't talking about that at all I don't think) More of the:
"I have my principles.  I could stop you from raping and killing my wife, but my principles are more important than protecting her - even if she would desperately, with all her being, not have her vagina invaded by this scumbag (poor soul) and her life spared to raise her children.  I don't need a 'thus sayeth the Lord' - all I need is a "It don't feel right to me"  Please don't hurt her you big bad man!"   Perhaps that kind of thing?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: llewksgood on Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 12:23:40
Yes, well, where love truly is principles can kind of fly out the window sometimes. The same is true of fear. It just depends which one you allow to rule. I never like to judge a situation I've never been in.

There was one time I threatened to use a gun, and I had one too - an fn.

We were on patrol during a time as part of the peace keeping force in Rhodesia. We passed through an african village when our stick leader suggested we take advantage of a few of the women to flush out the enemy. I simply said, "I will shoot the first person to lay a hand on one of them."

There was much grumbling, and threats of having me charged, but they left the women alone.

Would I have done anything different? Absolutely no way.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Mon Dec 01, 2008 - 19:21:29
llewksgood

when you posted 10:30am Aus time, is that Australia?  If so, what part?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Dec 02, 2008 - 07:54:29
Yes, well, where love truly is principles can kind of fly out the window sometimes. The same is true of fear. It just depends which one you allow to rule. I never like to judge a situation I've never been in.

There was one time I threatened to use a gun, and I had one too - an fn.

We were on patrol during a time as part of the peace keeping force in Rhodesia. We passed through an african village when our stick leader suggested we take advantage of a few of the women to flush out the enemy. I simply said, "I will shoot the first person to lay a hand on one of them."

There was much grumbling, and threats of having me charged, but they left the women alone.

Would I have done anything different? Absolutely no way.




Probably like picking grain or causing the lame to walk on the sabboth.  I doubt Jesus would have set up a regular work schedule to harvest grain or set up a hospital to be run only on the sabboth for these activities, but He did do what was against the norm at an hour of need.  (Or eating the shewbread only allowed for priests, etc...)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Dec 02, 2008 - 08:58:53
25 pages in.  Should Christians own guns?  Yeah, if you want to.  Unless someone can give a b-c-v that says not to, then all that can be offered is a mix of scripture and human opinion.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jb728b on Tue Dec 02, 2008 - 09:38:43
25 pages in.  Should Christians own guns?  Yeah, if you want to.  Unless someone can give a b-c-v that says not to, then all that can be offered is a mix of scripture and human opinion.

Would b-c-v where Jesus tells his followers to actually buy weapons count?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Dec 02, 2008 - 09:53:26
25 pages in.  Should Christians own guns?  Yeah, if you want to.  Unless someone can give a b-c-v that says not to, then all that can be offered is a mix of scripture and human opinion.

Would b-c-v where Jesus tells his followers to actually buy weapons count?

Was he really speaking to me or to those who were with him at the time.  Since there doesn't really appear to a bcv about us right now regarding weapons, it seems each person will just have to make up their own mind and every one else can just walk up an alley and yell "fish".
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Tue Dec 02, 2008 - 12:58:24
But it is clear that christians should not use musical instruments in worship.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Tue Dec 02, 2008 - 13:33:08
But it is clear that christians should not use musical instruments in worship.

Including singing, as our throats are musical instruments. We should all stand and sit every 7.5 minutes, not making a sound, this shall be worship.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Mon Dec 08, 2008 - 08:01:46
Perhaps it should be rephrased and called MI.    (Mechanical Instruments) as that is really the issue!    So IM is authorized but MI is not.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Mon Dec 08, 2008 - 08:45:38
"Mechanical instruments of music" is a phrase often used in the farther right circles.  Always seemed a bit clumsy and antiquated to me. 




-------------

rofl even this thread eventually gets infected with IM (aka MI, MIoM).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Mon Dec 08, 2008 - 10:34:20
Well, as long as the mechanical instruments of music are not used in the making of noise during a time that includes music in worship, they should be OK.  They could be used to hold up pews or keep the pulpit from falling over, for instance.   

Should Christians Own Mechanical Instruments of Worship (if they can only be used for secular use!)?    Maybe that should be the question.   Both guns and MIoManuintMoNdaTtiMiW kill the soul.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Mon Dec 08, 2008 - 10:49:13
Maybe I can use my guitar as a deadly weapon?  People have told me it is one, after all.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 12:52:06
Probably would be if I tried to play it. ::band:: ::lalala::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: HRoberson on Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 14:50:38
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?

"should" casts a moralistic shade to the question.

Should they, as though if they didn't they might be sinning.

Should they, as though if they did they might be sinning.

Should they, as though the issue is mute and they can if they want.

Christians can own guns for any number of reasons. House defense is not any more a moral reason for owning a gun than is hunting, or the simple joy of owning a well made piece of hardware, or simply to corner the market on 1854 Remingtons.

Own a gun for whatever reason you'd like.

But.....with a small kid in the house, you will need to keep it and the ammo very safe.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 11:33:37
 Having guns, shows a distrust in God.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 11:39:37
Having guns, shows a distrust in God.

Using this logic, we don't need an army, either.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 11:39:50
Having guns, shows a distrust in God.


Having the internet, shows a distrust in God.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 11:45:44
Having guns, shows a distrust in God.

No it doesn't.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 11:51:37
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 12:15:06
Having guns, shows a distrust in God.


No, having guns shows a distrust of the gang-bangers living down the street.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 12:16:27
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 12:20:48
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.

Just go buy one, wrap it up and put a card on it that says, "From Santa."  That's usually the only way I get what I want.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 13:34:31
Having guns, shows a distrust in God.

Using this logic, we don't need an army, either.

love,

Sopranette
When God wanted Israel to conquer Jericho....was the use of weapons involved ?

Also...when Isrtael was loyal to God, and  kept all HIS Commandments, there was absolutely no nation, in all the world, that could conquer them.

 BUT, when they disobeyed God's Laws, they were conquered and placed into captivity.

God has never changed how HE deals with men.



I believe that is one of the reasons 9/11 occured.

Had this been a truely Christian nation, 9/11 could not have happened.
 Because God would have prevented it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 13:58:38
So the civil war, was that a result of us not being Christian enough?  And who's side was God on? There is evil, and we must put on our armour to go to battle.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 15:25:42
So the civil war, was that a result of us not being Christian enough?  And who's side was God on? There is evil, and we must put on our armour to go to battle.

love,

Sopranette
Slavery was the issue then, as you know.

God had very specific things to say about slavery.
 Things which men/women were ignoring.

Had men/women known, and understood, and complied, with what God had to say about slavery...there never would have been a civil war.

There was ABSOLUTELY,  NO REASON for salvery in this country !
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 15:41:24
So the civil war, was that a result of us not being Christian enough?  And who's side was God on? There is evil, and we must put on our armour to go to battle.

love,

Sopranette
Slavery was the issue then, as you know.

God had very specific things to say about slavery.
 Things which men/women were ignoring.

Had men/women known, and understood, and complied, with what God had to say about slavery...there never would have been a civil war.

There was ABSOLUTELY,  NO REASON for salvery in this country !

Yet, at this era there were folks who looked down on folks who weren't white as something less than human.  I know of one lady who thought herself a prophetess with those ideas.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 15:41:59
The civil war was about state sovereignty.  So who's side was God on on that issue?

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 15:54:38
Having guns, shows a distrust in God.

Using this logic, we don't need an army, either.

love,

Sopranette
When God wanted Israel to conquer Jericho....was the use of weapons involved ?


Yes, swords and shields and other weapons of the day.  (you should probably have looked before asking)

Quote
10 Now the priests who carried the ark remained standing in the middle of the Jordan until everything the LORD had commanded Joshua was done by the people, just as Moses had directed Joshua. The people hurried over, 11 and as soon as all of them had crossed, the ark of the LORD and the priests came to the other side while the people watched. 12 The men of Reuben, Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh crossed over, armed, in front of the Israelites, as Moses had directed them. 13 About forty thousand armed for battle crossed over before the LORD to the plains of Jericho for war. 14 That day the LORD exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they revered him all the days of his life, just as they had revered Moses.

Joshua 4

Quote
20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Joshua 6
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 16:06:41
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.

Just go buy one, wrap it up and put a card on it that says, "From Santa."  That's usually the only way I get what I want.
That sounds good, but what if my wife gets the same idea?  That "Santa" guy could bust my budget real fast! rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 16:55:43
So the civil war, was that a result of us not being Christian enough?  And who's side was God on? There is evil, and we must put on our armour to go to battle.

love,

Sopranette
Slavery was the issue then, as you know.

God had very specific things to say about slavery.
 Things which men/women were ignoring.

Had men/women known, and understood, and complied, with what God had to say about slavery...there never would have been a civil war.

There was ABSOLUTELY,  NO REASON for salvery in this country !
Quote
Yet, at this era there were folks who looked down on folks who weren't white as something less than human.  I know of one lady who thought herself a prophetess with those ideas.
Yet, the Plan of Salvation was to reach all people, in any time period of history.

The whole essense of Salvation was ( and is) freedom, both physically and spiritualy.

Remember.....Acts   10:34   Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 

  10:35   But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 20:23:40
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.

Just go buy one, wrap it up and put a card on it that says, "From Santa."  That's usually the only way I get what I want.
That sounds good, but what if my wife gets the same idea?  That "Santa" guy could bust my budget real fast! rofl

Only if you are an egalitarian!   rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 21:10:55
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.


You'll shoot your eye out!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jaime on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 21:17:46
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.

I hope the New York rules for hunting are more sporting than the Texas rules, where one baits the dear for several weeks with automatic corn feeders and then the behavior conditioned animals  are ambushed from camoflouged elevated plywood boxes with high powere rifles with incredible scopes. An embarassment to the sport. Yip Yip Yip Yahoo!

That's the easy part. Then ya gotta field dress it. I haven't seen a prime grade A steer that I would shoot and clean for the meat, if it was standing in my front yard, much less a miserable deer. If I was stuck in a plywood box in the pre-dawn freezing weather usualy associated with deer hunting. I would be inclined to shoo any deer away rather than shoot one and have to clean it. I love everything surrounding hunting except the hunting itself.

I'm really more at home shooting golfs!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 21:44:04
I only shoot at old soup cans and people.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 21:46:31
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.

I hope the New York rules for hunting are more sporting than the Texas rules, where one baits the dear for several weeks with automatic corn feeders and then the behavior conditioned animals  are ambushed from camoflouged elevated plywood boxes with high powere rifles with incredible scopes. An embarassment to the sport. Yip Yip Yip Yahoo!

That's the easy part. Then ya gotta field dress it. I haven't seen a prime grade A steer that I would shoot and clean for the meat, if it was standing in my front yard, much less a miserable deer. If I was stuck in a plywood box in the pre-dawn freezing weather usualy associated with deer hunting. I would be inclined to shoo any deer away rather than shoot one and have to clean it. I love everything surrounding hunting except the hunting itself.

I'm really more at home shooting golfs!

If you like wildlife that aren't in private "parks" you should come to Montana.  It's still wild here.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 22:00:28
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.


I hope the New York rules for hunting are more sporting than the Texas rules, where one baits the dear for several weeks with automatic corn feeders and then the behavior conditioned animals  are ambushed from camoflouged elevated plywood boxes with high powere rifles with incredible scopes. An embarassment to the sport. Yip Yip Yip Yahoo!
Yep, it is.  Baiting is against the law in New York.  Feeders are cheaters.  But, you can still spray yourself down with fox urine and dow estrus if you like.  I don't like.

Quote
That's the easy part. Then ya gotta field dress it. I haven't seen a prime grade A steer that I would shoot and clean for the meat, if it was standing in my front yard, much less a miserable deer. If I was stuck in a plywood box in the pre-dawn freezing weather usualy associated with deer hunting. I would be inclined to shoo any deer away rather than shoot one and have to clean it. I love everything surrounding hunting except the hunting itself.

Well, I didn't get to enjoy that part of the hunt this year.  Because I couldn't take the safety course until late Oct, I couldn't apply for a doe permit by Oct. 1 (in NY a hunting license only covers bucks, the doe you have to apply for separately).  In two days at one place I saw 15+ doe.  Never an antler did I see.  Next year.  [/quote]

Quote
I'm really more at home shooting golfs!
I love to golf, especially up here in milder weather and where even municipal courses are green as can be.  Unfortunately, 2008 was a golf-free year for me.  One golf partner moved too far, the other left the Lord altogether, and the third was out for health reasons.  It's no fun golfing alone.

Here's where I like to play, about ten minutes from the house (it's just a little nine-holer):
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/137125432_b43f94d4a0_o.jpg)

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 88 on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 22:02:12
Categorically, absolutely.

I have had a weapon since I was 6 years old: shooting my new .22 single shot Stevens as a gift from my daddy. Always carried a weapon on the ranch growing up, for bears, cougars, etc. Always carried an 870 12 gauge sawed off shotgun and 30-30 lever action, both in scabbards on the saddle.

Still carry 2, 12 gauge 870 Remington Magnum shotguns in VEX when traveling south. One a sawed off 12 gauge with 8 shot magazine extension and 20" barrel,  and the other a long gun with full choked 28" barrel.

When  I cross into the southern reaches of Honduras, I always have the short shotgun on the dash holder for dealing with the Marxist banditos who wish to extract a 'toll' from me when I cross there, heading into western Nicaragua.  On several occaisions had I not had both with me, I would not be here.......

Robert





Now that's what I like to read.  Shooting Marxists!!  Nice one.  





 ::backontopic::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Sat Dec 13, 2008 - 23:32:31
A Missouri hunter shot a 27 point doe this year.

LINK (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20215205&BRD=1160&PAG=461&dept_id=190958&rfi=6)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jaime on Sun Dec 14, 2008 - 06:55:49
I know for a fact I am getting a gun for Christmas.  A shotgun. 
I've been hinting at a muzzleloader (it would extend my deer season by two weeks), but I don't think the hint stuck.


I hope the New York rules for hunting are more sporting than the Texas rules, where one baits the dear for several weeks with automatic corn feeders and then the behavior conditioned animals  are ambushed from camoflouged elevated plywood boxes with high powere rifles with incredible scopes. An embarassment to the sport. Yip Yip Yip Yahoo!
Yep, it is.  Baiting is against the law in New York.  Feeders are cheaters.  But, you can still spray yourself down with fox urine and dow estrus if you like.  I don't like.

Quote
That's the easy part. Then ya gotta field dress it. I haven't seen a prime grade A steer that I would shoot and clean for the meat, if it was standing in my front yard, much less a miserable deer. If I was stuck in a plywood box in the pre-dawn freezing weather usualy associated with deer hunting. I would be inclined to shoo any deer away rather than shoot one and have to clean it. I love everything surrounding hunting except the hunting itself.

Well, I didn't get to enjoy that part of the hunt this year.  Because I couldn't take the safety course until late Oct, I couldn't apply for a doe permit by Oct. 1 (in NY a hunting license only covers bucks, the doe you have to apply for separately).  In two days at one place I saw 15+ doe.  Never an antler did I see.  Next year. 


Quote
I'm really more at home shooting golfs!
I love to golf, especially up here in milder weather and where even municipal courses are green as can be.  Unfortunately, 2008 was a golf-free year for me.  One golf partner moved too far, the other left the Lord altogether, and the third was out for health reasons.  It's no fun golfing alone.

Here's where I like to play, about ten minutes from the house (it's just a little nine-holer):
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/137125432_b43f94d4a0_o.jpg)


[/quote]

I would golf there alone jmg. Also, you surely must know that it's impossible for one to leave the Lord according to many threads here. Musta never been saved in the first place.

  ::peeking::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sun Dec 14, 2008 - 07:16:56
2nd Peter 2 (NIV)
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

::reading::  If the phrase in italics is an impossibility, the Apostle Peter was wasting ink.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Sun Dec 14, 2008 - 07:30:58
So the civil war, was that a result of us not being Christian enough?  And who's side was God on? There is evil, and we must put on our armour to go to battle.

love,

Sopranette
Slavery was the issue then, as you know.

God had very specific things to say about slavery.
 Things which men/women were ignoring.

Had men/women known, and understood, and complied, with what God had to say about slavery...there never would have been a civil war.

There was ABSOLUTELY,  NO REASON for salvery in this country !

Yet, at this era there were folks who looked down on folks who weren't white as something less than human.  I know of one lady who thought herself a prophetess with those ideas.
Do me a favor and don't put mine and 3AM's posts together.  He obviously doens't know what the civil war was really about.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Sun Dec 14, 2008 - 07:59:27
Quote
Slavery was the issue then...

What caused Civil War was a lengthy and complex series of political events that historian's continue to debate to this day.

"The Civil War was fought to free slaves" is just a simplistic, politically-correct answer given by elementry school teachers to students too young to understand the complexities of political science.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sun Dec 14, 2008 - 11:11:51
So the civil war, was that a result of us not being Christian enough?  And who's side was God on? There is evil, and we must put on our armour to go to battle.

love,

Sopranette
Slavery was the issue then, as you know.

God had very specific things to say about slavery.
 Things which men/women were ignoring.

Had men/women known, and understood, and complied, with what God had to say about slavery...there never would have been a civil war.

There was ABSOLUTELY,  NO REASON for salvery in this country !

Yet, at this era there were folks who looked down on folks who weren't white as something less than human.  I know of one lady who thought herself a prophetess with those ideas.
Do me a favor and don't put mine and 3AM's posts together.  He obviously doens't know what the civil war was really about.

love,

Sopranette

It was just a simple quote.  I was referring to 3AM's prophetess Ellen G. White who once wrote (from her book "Spiritual Gifts"):

"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: isabelp on Sun Jan 11, 2009 - 17:12:19
In my humble opinion, I think guns are too dangerous, accidents are too easy to happen. However to protect yourself it would be nice if we had those guns that people use on animals to put them to sleep. Then we are putting the person to sleep while protecting ourselves without worrying that we killed the person.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Fizzy on Sun Jan 11, 2009 - 17:25:34
What about Christians in the military?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Sun Jan 11, 2009 - 18:06:02
In my humble opinion, I think guns are too dangerous, accidents are too easy to happen. However to protect yourself it would be nice if we had those guns that people use on animals to put them to sleep. Then we are putting the person to sleep while protecting ourselves without worrying that we killed the person.
If you follow the safety guidelines, and use the safety mechanisms on modern guns, they are no more dangerous than anything else in your house.  Most deadly accidents that happen are from people not doing the above.  To quote my great-uncle used to say, there are no accidents [with guns], only irresponsibility.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Mon Jan 12, 2009 - 09:54:53
What about Christians in the military?
Christians in the military serve as medics, food servers (cooks), ect.

BUT, a true Bible-believing Christian will not kill....another human being.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Cliftyman on Mon Jan 12, 2009 - 10:10:41
Quote
In my humble opinion, I think guns are too dangerous, accidents are too easy to happen. However to protect yourself it would be nice if we had those guns that people use on animals to put them to sleep. Then we are putting the person to sleep while protecting ourselves without worrying that we killed the person.

I have many guns... I hunt and I practice marksmanship... I really enjoy it.  However I have one handgun for home defense.  Its a large caliber handgun that practically guarantees if someone enters my home at night with a firearm, that I will be able to kill them before they kill me or one of my family members.  It shoots a bullet large enough to cause fatal damage if you put it anywhere in the torso.  I never want to use it, and I will never draw it unless provoked by an assailant in my home... but if I am going to draw it I want it to work and work effectively.

A tranquilizer gun would be worthless against an assailant with firearm.  If you even shot them in a place where the tranquilizer would work it would still take several seconds to effect them... plenty of time for them to kill you or family members.

I just wanted to point that out.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Cliftyman on Mon Jan 12, 2009 - 10:12:31
Quote
BUT, a true Bible-believing Christian will not kill....another human being.

At one time I thought this way.  A professor at college nearly turned me pacifist.  Then I realized this viewpoint is utterly in contrast to the bible.

David, the soldiers who John preached to and many others in the bible show this viewpoint to be false.  It is a sin to murder but there is quite a difference between killing and murder.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Mon Jan 12, 2009 - 11:22:59
What about Christians in the military?
That is a subject for another thread.  Military service and legal gun ownership are two entirely separate issues.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Mon Jan 12, 2009 - 11:40:51
Quote
BUT, a true Bible-believing Christian will not kill....another human being.

At one time I thought this way.  A professor at college nearly turned me pacifist.  Then I realized this viewpoint is utterly in contrast to the bible.

David, the soldiers who John preached to and many others in the bible show this viewpoint to be false.  It is a sin to murder but there is quite a difference between killing and murder.
Without the authorization from God, HIMSELF....any killing of another human being was bad.

Take the war in the Middle East, for example......God NEVER authorize it......and we should not even be there now.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: llewksgood on Mon Jan 12, 2009 - 12:16:12
Charles, How ARE you going?

I was sitting, idly looking at the screen, when I observed how many times this has been read... so I flicked through the first 6 pages of posts.

CONGRATULATIONS, you have somewhat of a record - most read post?

Anyway... a nickname for you formed in my wandering thinking - Move Along Charlie.

I do apologise, but it seems we're stuck in a rut, and can't get moving.

I had an American science teacher at Umtali Boys High whose favourite saying was, "Move along, Charlie Brown [said in his twangy drawl]." - I was kinda reminded of him.

There was a time when I was commanded to "walk the perimeter" [about 2 & 1/2k] carrying a rifle.
I had this rifle from  the first time I entered military duty.
I had to keep it clean; I was not allowed to drop it [even in error]; I had to run with it, march with it, patrol with it, crawl through mud and dust with it - all the while keeping it in pristine condition. I practically had to sleep with it.

The Jesus took my burden - and I transfered to the Padre's corp - as a Padre's assistant.

Time flies - military duty is long ago completed - and I'm glad I'm free of the thing.

Have a happy day, and God bless.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 09:59:11
It is amazing to me that no one has used Jesus Christ as our example...in regards to Christians, owning guns.

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is, our example, in all things.

SO...the question is:
Would Jesus own a gun, if HE were here in this world, right now ?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:08:10
That's just silly.

Would Jesus own a knife? Or any other object that could be used for both good and evil?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:18:56
That's just silly.
So the truth is silly, huh ?
Quote
Would Jesus own a knife? Or any other object that could be used for both good and evil?
You don't think Jesus used a knife to cut up HIS food ?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:26:26
When I grew up I was taught how to defend myself with my hands, should I cut them off citing "lethal weapons"?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:35:33
Right. Baseball bats are commonly used as weapons. Maybe we should get rid of them too. Or at least make a law that says you have to be over 21 and not a convicted felon or currently taking certain medications to purchase one.

Like I said, the entire concept is silly and immature.


"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."   ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:37:16
Absurdius ad nauseum infinitus.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:41:48
When I grew up I was taught how to defend myself with my hands, should I cut them off citing "lethal weapons"?
I don't believe that very many crimes are committed by people using their hands...do you ?

 Can you imagine a Bank-robber telling them to give them the money or, I'll use my karate chop on you ? LOL rofl

But seriously, when I was younger, I studied martial arts myself.
 However, I only used it in self-defense.


The issue here is guns....and, whether Christians should own them.

BUT, there again...IF Christ is our example...the question has to be  asked...would Jesus Christ own a gun ?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:52:20
When I grew up I was taught how to defend myself with my hands, should I cut them off citing "lethal weapons"?
I don't believe that very many crimes are committed by people using their hands...do you ?

 Can you imagine a Bank-robber telling them to give them the money or, I'll use my karate chop on you ? LOL rofl

But seriously, when I was younger, I studied martial arts myself.
 However, I only used it in self-defense.


The issue here is guns....and, whether Christians should own them.

BUT, there again...IF Christ is our example...the question has to be  asked...would Jesus Christ own a gun ?

If he was me, with a family and all of that, then he would own several guns.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:52:49
If Jesus were alive today he would have the same rights and responsibilities as any other US Citizen, so I suppose he would advise you to follow the current laws of the land.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:56:12
BUT, there again...IF Christ is our example...the question has to be  asked...would Jesus Christ own a gun ?

Well, considering that Jesus created the animals, and could tell predators to go away. I don't believe He would need one no. But as I currently only speak English and a bit of Spanish, I don't speak wild beast, and the only way to stop one from chewing me is to shoot it (I live rurally).

A side note...I grew up in a gang infested area...and have had a gun pointed right at me. So who should have the guns, the criminals, or those who want to protect the innocent? The day the US does away with guns is the day only criminals and cops have them...and criminals FAR outnumber the police...good luck.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:58:56
These days, the only gun I own is a .40 Glock.  It's not really designed to shoot animals.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:05:04
If Jesus were alive today he would have the same rights and responsibilities as any other US Citizen, so I suppose he would advise you to follow the current laws of the land.
But, the laws of the land do not tell you that you have to own a gun....do they ?

And...do the laws of the land overule, God's Laws ?

Another question should be...Would Jesus Christ do ?

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:11:33
Quote
But, the laws of the land do not tell you that you have to own a gun....do they ?
No, they don't.

Quote
And...do the laws of the land overule, God's Laws ?
Yes, they do.

Quote
Another question should be...Would Jesus Christ do ?
Don't know. And neither does anyone else. We can read the Bible and speculate what he may have done then, but if he were here today, he just might decide to go buy one.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:16:50
Jesus didn't get married either, should you?

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Rahn on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:17:53
That's just silly.

Would Jesus own a knife? Or any other object that could be used for both good and evil?

I may be repeating another person's response. This is a very long thread to read.

Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword."

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV)

Weapons are a part of a civilized society. I fear a society where criminals are the only ones with weapons. Jesus carried no weapons. So what. His purpose was to give of himself. He healed a man's ear cut with a sword. (I wish it was this easy to heal today.) He hates evil. Yet, evil exists. Do we lay down our lives like Jesus in the face of being killed or hurt? For the sake of the Gospel? Maybe, but we should also uphold the law. Christians cannot abandon the responsibility of maintaining law and order.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:18:45
And...do the laws of the land overule, God's Laws ?
Yes, they do.


[/quote]I see...then you agree that man, is greater than God.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:19:06
Jesus didn't get married either, should you?

love,

Sopranette

IMO, NO!!   rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:20:48
And...do the laws of the land overule, God's Laws ?
Yes, they do.


I see...then you agree that man, is greater than God.
[/quote]

You will have to get a lot more clever than you are to successfully twist my words. :)   America is a Representative Republic, not a Theocracy, so the short answer is YES.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:27:50
And...do the laws of the land overule, God's Laws ?
Yes, they do.


I see...then you agree that man, is greater than God.

You will have to get a lot more clever than you are to successfully twist my words. :)   America is a Representative Republic, not a Theocracy, so the short answer is YES.
[/quote]OK...let's get a little tighter here.

The U S goverment tells its soldiers to go kill the enemy.

 BUT, God says to love your enemy.


God is wrong, and the U S goverment is right ?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:29:20
And...do the laws of the land overule, God's Laws ?
Yes, they do.


I see...then you agree that man, is greater than God.

You will have to get a lot more clever than you are to successfully twist my words. :)   America is a Representative Republic, not a Theocracy, so the short answer is YES.
OK...let's get a little tighter here.

The U S goverment tells its soldiers to go kill the enemy.

 BUT, God says to love your enemy.


God is wrong, and the U S goverment is right ?
[/quote]

Turn on the news for a few minutes, then you tell me.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sanctusivo on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:47:26
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?
Answer: Pursuant to the laws of your jurisdiction. Spiritually, it's a matter of discretion.

(From the Slight Quibble Dept.: it's probably more helpful to replace the word "own" with "possess.")
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:51:57
I get so tired of that old phrase, "What would Jesus do?".  Well, how are we to know, in this modern day?  We can only guess.  And He was God, with 12 legions of angels at His beck and call, we are only mortal.  Sure, He gave us many excellent examples to follow, but can we really follow exactly in His footsteps? No. I would do absolutely everything to protect my family and myself.  Would Jesus do the same?  No one knows.  But we do know He realized the world is a dangerous place.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:54:20
sanctusivo, do you think the cat in your avatar is exercising sound judgement? :)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 11:56:26
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?
Answer: Pursuant to the laws of your jurisdiction. Spiritually, it's a matter of discretion.

(From the Slight Quibble Dept.: it's probably more helpful to replace the word "own" with "possess.")

No, in this context they have two very different meanings. But thank you for the vocabulary lesson anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:09:25
I get so tired of that old phrase, "What would Jesus do?".  Well, how are we to know, in this modern day?  We can only guess.
What do you think the Bible was written for ?

1 Peter  2:21   For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 
  2:22   Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 

Quote
 And He was God, with 12 legions of angels at His beck and call, we are only mortal.
So was HE !

Immortality means : not subject to death.

If Jesus was immortal....HE could NOT have died on the Cross of Cavary.


 
Quote
Sure, He gave us many excellent examples to follow, but can we really follow exactly in His footsteps? No. I would do absolutely everything to protect my family and myself.  Would Jesus do the same?  No one knows. 

 Matthew 28:18   And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 
  28:19   Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 

  28:20   Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:13:56
So was HE !

Immortality means : not subject to death.

If Jesus was immortal....HE could NOT have died on the Cross of Calvary.

That is the most absurd statement I have seen from you thus far. You think because God became man that He was no longer God? When did the poster reference Jesus as immortal? Stop putting words into others' mouths. Your worse than CNN news. Join the Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson fan club.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:15:20
And where did He command us NOT to carry a weapon for self defense?  Oh, that's right, He didn't.  He told His disciples to buy a sword.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sanctusivo on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:17:35
sanctusivo, do you think the cat in your avatar is exercising sound judgment? :)
The tail being swatted at is probably mom's, so no harm. Yet.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sanctusivo on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:19:29
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?
Answer: Pursuant to the laws of your jurisdiction. Spiritually, it's a matter of discretion.

(From the Slight Quibble Dept.: it's probably more helpful to replace the word "own" with "possess.")

No, in this context they have two very different meanings. But thank you for the vocabulary lesson anyway. ;)
Well, "own" would signify private/personal ownership and use.

"Possess" would encompass carrying weapons in the course of employment that one may or may not necessarily own.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:20:25
Well, if you're interpretation of God's law conflicts with Man's law and you choose to follow God's law, you can always pray that the jury will be sympathetic towards you. Just keep in mind that, many times, a jury is comprised of people too stupid to get out of jury duty.  ::eek::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:22:24

Well, "own" would signify private/personal ownership and use.

"Possess" would encompass carrying weapons in the course of employment that one may or may not necessarily own.

In Arizona, about half the adult population carries a gun. Nothing to do with employment, just personal choice. And yes, it's legal.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:25:03
And where did He command us NOT to carry a weapon for self defense?  Oh, that's right, He didn't.  He told His disciples to buy a sword.

love,

Sopranette
Did you forget that Jesus did NOT want them to use their weapons ?

 People always forget that when Peter used his sword....Jesus told him to put it away.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:31:32
And where did He command us NOT to carry a weapon for self defense?  Oh, that's right, He didn't.  He told His disciples to buy a sword.

love,

Sopranette
Did you forget that Jesus did NOT want them to use their weapons ?

 People always forget that when Peter used his sword....Jesus told him to put it away.
As mentioned at least once in this thread, take another look at Luke 22:35.  He told them to sell their garnments, and buy a sword. Why? For self defense.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:39:23
And where did He command us NOT to carry a weapon for self defense?  Oh, that's right, He didn't.  He told His disciples to buy a sword.

love,

Sopranette
Did you forget that Jesus did NOT want them to use their weapons ?

 People always forget that when Peter used his sword....Jesus told him to put it away.
As mentioned at least once in this thread, take another look at Luke 22:35.  He told them to sell their garnments, and buy a sword. Why? For self defense.

love,

Sopranette

...and on Earth, in America, in 2009, it is MAN who determines what is and what isn't considered self-defense.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fanuvmxpx on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 12:41:50
3AM when are you going to learn that God wins and you lose? The sooner you let Him break you the sooner you'll make more sense.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 13:02:41
And where did He command us NOT to carry a weapon for self defense?  Oh, that's right, He didn't.  He told His disciples to buy a sword.

love,

Sopranette
Did you forget that Jesus did NOT want them to use their weapons ?

 People always forget that when Peter used his sword....Jesus told him to put it away.
As mentioned at least once in this thread, take another look at Luke 22:35.  He told them to sell their garnments, and buy a sword. Why? For self defense.

love,

Sopranette
Jesus was trying to teach them a lesson........and that lesson was learned later on when Peter cut off the ear of the Romans soldier, and Jesus told him to put up his sword.

Have you not noticed that after Jesus went back to heaven in Acts....that none of the disciples or Apostles carried any weapons ?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 13:19:29
No, they didn't use a weapon.  Doesn't mean they didn't have one.  Most people who have a firearm never use it to harm another.  That's not unusual.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 13:28:07
And where did He command us NOT to carry a weapon for self defense?  Oh, that's right, He didn't.  He told His disciples to buy a sword.

love,

Sopranette
Did you forget that Jesus did NOT want them to use their weapons ?

 People always forget that when Peter used his sword....Jesus told him to put it away.
As mentioned at least once in this thread, take another look at Luke 22:35.  He told them to sell their garnments, and buy a sword. Why? For self defense.

love,

Sopranette
Jesus was trying to teach them a lesson........and that lesson was learned later on when Peter cut off the ear of the Romans soldier, and Jesus told him to put up his sword.

Have you not noticed that after Jesus went back to heaven in Acts....that none of the disciples or Apostles carried any weapons ?

If Jesus were alive as a man today, he may have much different opinions than he had 2000 years ago.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 14:46:34
If Jesus were alive as a man today, he may have much different opinions than he had 2000 years ago.
NO, that is dead wrong.

Hebrews 13:8   Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 14:51:47
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property....Horrid mischief would ensue were the law abiding deprived of the use of them."

Thomas Paine

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 14:58:44
If Jesus were alive as a man today, he may have much different opinions than he had 2000 years ago.
NO, that is dead wrong.

Hebrews 13:8   Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 

To be honest, ancient Biblical metaphors annoy me, probably for the same reason that quantum mathematics annoys me. :)
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 15:50:04
Well, when truth is a brick wall, the forehead, misapplied, does tend to get annoyed. 

 ::frustrated::






 rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Fallen Knight on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:26:05
It's always funny that Christians living in countries with liberal gun laws and those who don't always seem to read scripture differently when it comes to this question.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:31:55
It's always funny that Christians living in countries with liberal gun laws and those who don't always seem to read scripture differently when it comes to this question.

What??
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:42:13
No, what's funny is that people will only read what they want to read, as long as it proves their point.  That's what gets tiresome to me. That's true with any subject.  However, scripture does not contradict itself, and God is not the author of confusion.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: avenger on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:48:56
Since owning a firearm won't cause me to lose my salvation, I think I'll choose not to spend any time worrying about it.  Doesn't that sound like one of those fringe things Satan likes us to spend time pondering, instead of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Avenger  ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:50:02
No, what's funny is that people will only read what they want to read, as long as it proves their point.  That's what gets tiresome to me. That's true with any subject.  However, scripture does not contradict itself, and God is not the author of confusion.

love,

Sopranette

I suppose you think that proves your point.  ::nodding::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:50:24
3AM said:

Quote
Have you not noticed that after Jesus went back to heaven in Acts....that none of the disciples or Apostles carried any weapons ?  

Please back this up with Scripture! You are adding to scripture because it isn't mentioned one way or another as to whether the disciples had knives/swords.  

Jesus told Peter in John 18:11 to Put your sword away!  Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me? Jesus did not tell Peter to throw away his sword and never touch it again!  To put his sword away meant to put it back in his belt.  Jesus did this because he did not wish to be defended/protected any longer as it would interfere with completing the mission he was on following the will of the Father.

Also, I have not found where we are told the disciples were told to throw away all weapons and that there were no weapons there when Jesus ascended into Heaven!  That would have gone completly against the Jewish male custom of carrying a large knife or short personal sword, which was like a very large dagger.  Remember that several of the Twelve were fishermen before being called by Jesus.  They would have carried the large knives they used for years as fishermen as a matter of habit/custom.


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:53:03
Since owning a firearm won't cause me to lose my salvation, I think I'll choose not to spend any time worrying about it.  Doesn't that sound like one of those fringe things Satan likes us to spend time pondering, instead of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Avenger  ::tippinghat::

If you plan to go about spreading the gospel in today's political climate, you may need a firearm to defend yourself.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 17:56:16
Every subject in the bible is worth considering and studying.  Personally, I think this is an important subject.  Jesus told His disciples to buy a sword.  He told us a homeowner who kills an intruder breaking into his home is not to be held accountable for the intruder's death. That is interesting to think about. Some others may not think so.  They are free to discuss other subjects that hold no interest to me whatsoever.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 18:09:29
sanctusivo, do you think the cat in your avatar is exercising sound judgment? :)
The tail being swatted at is probably mom's, so no harm. Yet.

You have more than one cat.  Are you a cat rancher?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 18:11:16
This thread is 32 pages long because no one can give a bcv one way or another so all we are left with is personal sentiments.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 18:24:08
This thread is 32 pages long because no one can give a bcv one way or another so all we are left with is personal sentiments.


Nope.  So far the only defense I've seen from the pro gun control people is "What would Jesus do?", as if they have some idea of what He would do that the rest of us don't.

love,

Sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 18:27:16
The deadliest weapon in the entire history of mankind is not the firearm, regardless of the lies of the liberal anti-gun organizations.  The deadliest weapon that has killed many millions more than all the firearms since the time they were invented is the BLADE (or sharp edge/pointed) WEAPON.  It is the most feared close quarters weapon in history and the hardest to deflect and prevent injury of all weapons.  It is also the most common deadly weapon in the general public in the United States!

No guns were used on 9/11 to hijack four planes--only sharp edge weapons with blades only 2 inches long obtainable at any Wal Mart and only one plane had pasengers who were willing to go against the highjackers blades.  People, on average, will go against a person with a handgun much quicker than against a person holding a razor sharp blade weapon because of the fear of being cut!  More than 3000 souls were murdered because of razor blade box cutter knives that day!  And some people think guns are the worst weapon ever invented    ::frown::

In states where concealed carry has been enacted the violent crime rate as reported by the FBI has decreased starting the year following the enactment of the CCL laws.  In states with the strictest gun control, the violent crime rate has continued to rise inspite of ultra strict gun control laws.  Washington DC is one of the strictest in the US and is among the cities with the highest crime rates in the US.  These facts alone are absolute proof that gun control does not make the public safer!  Gun control turns the public into killing fields where no one but the criminal has guns!

I have worn a 38cal S&W revolver revolver and a 9mm Glock and carried a riot shotgun and/or AR15 assault rifle for a living six days a week for 25 years.  I have carried concealed or had easy access to a handgun for most of my entire life. I am now 60 years old.  I live in an very rural area with far less law enforcement personnel per sq mile and per capita than most people in the US.  The average response time in an emergency law enforcement response for many years was greater than 15 minutes if the responder drove at 100+MPH with lights and siren and encounter clear roads the entire distance!  Our non-violent and violent crime rate is lower than most areas of the US and the reason for that is everyone owns and carries firearms everyday of their lives in some way or another.  Our law enforcement officers expect the honest resident to have a firearm within access to protect themselves because they know how hard it is for them to provide the protection that many think they deserve because of the distances involved and the area in sq miles they have to cover.

There is not one thing in the Bible that cammands a Christian to NOT have weapons of self defense in order to protect family and property when necessary.  There is also not one scripture that says it is wrong to use deadly force against the unlawfull person in order to protect oneself or family!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 18:34:03
This thread is 32 pages long because no one can give a bcv one way or another so all we are left with is personal sentiments.


Nope.  So far the only defense I've seen from the pro gun control people is "What would Jesus do?", as if they have some idea of what He would do that the rest of us don't.

love,

Sopranette

Yes, the ask that as though the answer is a given - Jesus would do what they think.  It's like the bumper sticker that asks "who would Jesus bomb"?  I don't know how it is where you live, but if a car around here has a lot of bumper stickers, they are liberal-themed 100% of the time.

I might have a few printed up that ask "Who would Jesus abort?" and "Who would Jesus bugger?" and slap them on the back of some of these cars.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: freeman on Sat Jan 17, 2009 - 01:06:18
If you believe your worldly possessions are worth more than life, then you've already committed murder in your heart whether you own one or not.
If you love this life, you will lose it. Is that not what Jesus taught?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Sat Jan 17, 2009 - 09:19:55
If you believe your worldly possessions are worth more than life, then you've already committed murder in your heart whether you own one or not.
If you love this life, you will lose it. Is that not what Jesus taught?

Has anyone here ever said that stuff is worth more than life?  If someone is breaking in to your home they pose a threat to yourself and to your family.  It's ok to air the intruder out.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Jan 18, 2009 - 15:44:30
If Jesus were alive as a man today, he may have much different opinions than he had 2000 years ago.
NO, that is dead wrong.

Hebrews 13:8   Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 

To be honest, ancient Biblical metaphors annoy me, probably for the same reason that quantum mathematics annoys me. :)
Matthew  13:34   All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:  

  13:35   That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OneLung on Sun Jan 18, 2009 - 15:54:05
If Jesus were alive as a man today, he may have much different opinions than he had 2000 years ago.
NO, that is dead wrong.

Hebrews 13:8   Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 

To be honest, ancient Biblical metaphors annoy me, probably for the same reason that quantum mathematics annoys me. :)
Matthew  13:34   All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:  

  13:35   That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 

Well that just brings it all into crystal clarity, now doesn't it.  ::doh::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Jan 18, 2009 - 15:57:40
Quote
To be honest, ancient Biblical metaphors annoy me, probably for the same reason that quantum mathematics annoys me. :)
Matthew  13:34   All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:  

  13:35   That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 
[/quote]

Well that just brings it all into crystal clarity, now doesn't it.  ::doh::
[/quote]YEP ! just like Peter said:  6:68   Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Wed Jul 08, 2009 - 19:58:51
I now have a .30-06 that is an old military rifle sans scope, and a 20 gauge shotgun.  I need a revolver so I can buy some snake shot for the summer and fall.  Had a 4+ foot rattler near the driveway in the last two weeks.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: NovemberChild56 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 - 20:22:08
Yes, without a doubt, and I do

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: walker starr on Wed Jul 08, 2009 - 21:51:14


         I would never part with my fully loaded 45 .Unless GOD specifically told me to.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Wed Jul 08, 2009 - 22:05:14
 Should christians baptize babies by sprinkling?

some christians  say no that's one of the biggest reasons lutherans still do it instead of using our perfered method of immersion.




should christians own guns both the bible and laws are not against it. I would suspect if there were a official christian group strongly against Our using them

lutherans would go out in droves and buy them just because of that.

but there are other reason besides just some one trying to mess with our christian freedom ,we also could .

the bible says we have a right to protect our selves and the innocent in our care.

any more questions on this your welcome to ask one of my pastors
at---------- www.wels.net
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: canuck on Wed Jul 08, 2009 - 22:49:27
There have been times historically when nations and individuals needed to adequately prepare for defending against invaders, thieves marauders, terrorists etc. That we should rely on the Lord for our strength apart from weaponry is not supported in any way by Scripture. Quite the opposite is the case. The Lord went before the nation of Israel, but what chapter(s) do we see the Lord commanding His people to destroy their weapons of warfare and solely rely on Him to win the day? Yes, there will come a day when we will beat our swords in plowshares but that day is not yet upon us.

I own a 12 gauge Winchester Defender model shotgun and plenty of 00 magnum shells , a .22 repeating rifle and a 9 mm. semiautomatic pistol (all registered weapons). I have never used any of them in self-defence but if and when the time came to choose between my family's safety and the well being of some mentally deranged/drug-crazed criminal who would break into my home, there would likely be a quick response on my part. It is a husbands responsibility to protect his wife and children and Christians should be quick to defend with whatever means that gives them the upper hand in a face-to-face confrontation with a criminal whose aim is harm. My guiding Scripture in this regard is Rom. 12:18 " If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. " I interpret this to mean that if there are those who would hurt us, we have free rein to defend to the best of our ability.

canuck
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sopranette on Thu Jul 09, 2009 - 05:37:47
I now have a .30-06 that is an old military rifle sans scope, and a 20 gauge shotgun.  I need a revolver so I can buy some snake shot for the summer and fall.  Had a 4+ foot rattler near the driveway in the last two weeks.
Gary, a good little .22 is a great all purpose pistol.  I use that one more than any of the others, and it's definitely a great little snake killer; accurate with little recoil.

love,

sopranette
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: sedux on Thu Jul 09, 2009 - 08:14:55
IMO Christians owning a gun is like Christians and the whole topic of anger.  It's not a sin to have anger (given it's not "harboring" anger), and likewise, I see no wrong in actually owning a gun.  But it's what we DO with that anger/gun that gives birth to sin or not, which then makes it good or bad to OWN one.  Did that make any sense?  ::pondering::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 09:53:34
I now have a .30-06 that is an old military rifle sans scope, and a 20 gauge shotgun.  I need a revolver so I can buy some snake shot for the summer and fall.  Had a 4+ foot rattler near the driveway in the last two weeks.
I'm curious as to why you don't shoot the snake, with the 20 gauge, using birdshot ?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: LittlePinky82 on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 20:04:22
I think that's a good question.   Jesus talked about "turning the other cheek" and all that.  However what about those of us like myself going into law enforcement?  My deal with guns is knowing how to properly take care of it and use it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fenton on Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 20:31:14
maybe the reason the bad guy comes into our home is so he can leave this world...i own plenty of guns. no one is gonna hurt my family. ::shrug::  ::pondering::   ::bracingmyself::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 14:18:12
maybe the reason the bad guy comes into our home is so he can leave this world..
'the wages of sin is death' (Romans 6:23)

Quote
.i own plenty of guns. no one is gonna hurt my family. ::shrug::  ::pondering::   ::bracingmyself::
No one forces a criminal to do what they do.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 16:24:43
I now have a .30-06 that is an old military rifle sans scope, and a 20 gauge shotgun.  I need a revolver so I can buy some snake shot for the summer and fall.  Had a 4+ foot rattler near the driveway in the last two weeks.
I'm curious as to why you don't shoot the snake, with the 20 gauge, using birdshot ?

My land isn't flat, going up the small bluff behind the house, it would be nice to have a revolver.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: crowcamp on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 16:26:14


         I would never part with my fully loaded 45 .Unless GOD specifically told me to.

Specifically? As in, "Thou shalt not kill"?

Of course, if it's just to protect you from varmints........................ ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OldDad on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 16:34:19


         I would never part with my fully loaded 45 .Unless GOD specifically told me to.

Specifically? As in, "Thou shalt not kill"?


That one's about guns?  So, it's not about knives, ice picks, sharp sticks, big rocks, billy-clubs. etc???

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 16:43:43
I now have a .30-06 that is an old military rifle sans scope, and a 20 gauge shotgun.  I need a revolver so I can buy some snake shot for the summer and fall.  Had a 4+ foot rattler near the driveway in the last two weeks.
I'm curious as to why you don't shoot the snake, with the 20 gauge, using birdshot ?

My land isn't flat, going up the small bluff behind the house, it would be nice to have a revolver.
I can relate.
 I live on a 160 ranch, and it has hills on it.

While I don't have a snake problem...I do have a deer problem.

I have to fence in any place, I want to place a garden.

I have a high fence around my orchard, so that helped, until they learned to dig under the fence to get in, and then I had to fix that. LOL
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: crowcamp on Sun Jul 12, 2009 - 17:10:29


         I would never part with my fully loaded 45 .Unless GOD specifically told me to.

Specifically? As in, "Thou shalt not kill"?


That one's about guns?  So, it's not about knives, ice picks, sharp sticks, big rocks, billy-clubs. etc???



Seems reasonable that Thou shalt not kill" includes all of the above. And many more.

Even boredom?  rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Lonnie Budro jr. on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 05:09:12
I am reminded of the shooting that happened at a church a few years ago. A guy shot and killed several people before an armed woman security or police officer shot him.
 This happened at a church.
So like in the movie "Lonesome Dove" Tommy lee Jones said " Its better to have it, and not need it. Then to need it, and not have it."(refering to a gun)
 Early settlers in this country carried guns to church to protect them against indians.
They had a saying "Keep your bibles handy, and your powder dry"
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: djadzin on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 19:43:44
Yes, I believe that Christians should own guns - even if for self-defense.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: idrahaje on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 21:02:18
I believe that we should all own guns, If you read the Septuagent it states that you shall not murder not you can not kill. Living in a small town in Oregon we have deer and other wild animals (cougar, bear) wondering in town on occasion. We will not even need to go into the safety of ones family. I pray that the need will never arise, but with the way this world is going I would rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. Just my opinion
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: farouk on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 21:20:28
We were on vacation up Province and a bear showed one morning...
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: son of God on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 22:14:10
Just think of how many more converts could have been made way back in the Crusades, if they had had guns! 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 22:23:30
Wow, talk about raising the dead.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Stucky on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 22:26:23
We were on vacation up Province and a bear showed one morning...

What did he show you?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: son of God on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 22:29:00
We were on vacation up Province and a bear showed one morning...

What did he show you?

The bear really showed him up: Farouk ran -- the bear didn't!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: son of God on Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 22:30:33
Which province, Mr. F?  I lived in Canada for years.  About 23.  Lived in Alberta, BC, Sask, Man, and Ont..  Worked in the oilfield up north in the winter.  Brrrrr.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: farouk on Mon Dec 21, 2009 - 00:17:52
'soG':

It was ON

Which province, Mr. F?  I lived in Canada for years.  About 23.  Lived in Alberta, BC, Sask, Man, and Ont..  Worked in the oilfield up north in the winter.  Brrrrr.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: KDoe on Mon Dec 21, 2009 - 07:32:31
I personally believe that guns should not be brought into the house, Christian or not. At home we just have a crucifix on our main door.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 00:04:45
I need to buy a few more.  Anyone got any suggestions on a good handgun?  I need another rifle too.  I missed too many deer this year with my open sight 100 year old .06.  I don't want to have it tapped just to put a scope on it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Stucky on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 00:47:45
I need to buy a few more.  Anyone got any suggestions on a good handgun?  I need another rifle too.  I missed too many deer this year with my open sight 100 year old .06.  I don't want to have it tapped just to put a scope on it.

I don't know, Bocephus, you can't be too careful with those deer.  Personally, I think a hand-grenade would be better.  When those varmints stalk hunters and attack and kill them there is nothing too good for killing them.  I think there should be an open season on deer with all the danger they pose with their ravenous ways.

As far as a handgun is concerned, I used to carry a nine mil Glock on duty but I also had a .357 mag revolver and a .44 mag revolver in the house for protection (not to mention my AK 47 and my AR 15).  Them sneaky mice prowl my house at night and you never know when a few of them will try to carry off a family member.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 00:50:21
I need to buy a few more.  Anyone got any suggestions on a good handgun?  I need another rifle too.  I missed too many deer this year with my open sight 100 year old .06.  I don't want to have it tapped just to put a scope on it.

I don't know, Bocephus, you can't be too careful with those deer.  Personally, I think a hand-grenade would be better.  When those varmints stalk hunters and attack and kill them there is nothing too good for killing them.  I think there should be an open season on deer with all the danger they pose with their ravenous ways.

As far as a handgun is concerned, I used to carry a nine mil Glock on duty but I also had a .357 mag revolver and a .44 mag revolver in the house for protection (not to mention my AK 47 and my AR 15).  Them sneaky mice prowl my house at night and you never know when a few of them will try to carry off a family member.

If I had a handgun during hunting season, I would have been able to hit a few, they were so close.  I would like a handgun because there are coyotes, mountain lions, rattlers, etc.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Stucky on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 01:02:08
I need to buy a few more.  Anyone got any suggestions on a good handgun?  I need another rifle too.  I missed too many deer this year with my open sight 100 year old .06.  I don't want to have it tapped just to put a scope on it.

I don't know, Bocephus, you can't be too careful with those deer.  Personally, I think a hand-grenade would be better.  When those varmints stalk hunters and attack and kill them there is nothing too good for killing them.  I think there should be an open season on deer with all the danger they pose with their ravenous ways.

As far as a handgun is concerned, I used to carry a nine mil Glock on duty but I also had a .357 mag revolver and a .44 mag revolver in the house for protection (not to mention my AK 47 and my AR 15).  Them sneaky mice prowl my house at night and you never know when a few of them will try to carry off a family member.

If I had a handgun during hunting season, I would have been able to hit a few, they were so close.  I would like a handgun because there are coyotes, mountain lions, rattlers, etc.

I was being facetious Bocephus, but I understand about the last varmints you mentioned.  Of course, I would rather use a high-powered rifle on a mountain lion, those things are bad, bad, bad.

You mentioning rattlers reminded me of an incident I had back in the 1970's.  We were building a shooting range and a utility company had donated a bunch of old utility poles for us to use and we were collecting them where they were stored in a rural area.  I was wearning my off-duty gun, a snub-nose .38 revolver and I almost stepped on a Copperhead.  I jumped about 30 feet straight up and was shooting at the smake on the way down and emptied the revolver without hitting the snake once (and I was an expert in police combat shooting).  My Captain saw all thise and laughed his behind off, saying maybe I should carry my shotgun next time.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fenton on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 08:46:03
i carry the glock 26--9mm--the baby g-- i love it
got the baretta storm 9mm too..both r sweet---if--ya can hit what ya aim at...lol
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: walker starr on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 08:59:15


   I carry (on occasion) a 1937 Webley.  Its Old but effective.  I also have a short barrel i2 gage pump.
   I'm  old but effective too as I have proven in the past.  I feel if GOD did not want me to do what I
   have done HE would cause me to miss or create a misfire.  Thank you JESUS'
   Happy Christmas every one.







  
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:25:51
I need to buy a few more.  Anyone got any suggestions on a good handgun?  I need another rifle too.  I missed too many deer this year with my open sight 100 year old .06.  I don't want to have it tapped just to put a scope on it.

FN Five-seveN 5.7 hand gun.  Shot a friend's on Wednesday.  Awesome!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:30:38
Quote
 As far as a handgun is concerned, I used to carry a nine mil Glock on duty but I also had a .357 mag revolver and a .44 mag revolver in the house for protection (not to mention my AK 47 and my AR 15).

A man of refined tastes.  I carry a Glock 17 and AR-15 on duty.  S&W 66 off duty and a couple of Llama .380's for concealed off duty.  That pretty well covers the problem of 2 legged rats.  I have my trusty Ruger 3 screw Single Six .22WFM for 4 legged rats  ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fenton on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:36:30
how about the HMR .17 for 4 legged varments---3 hundred yard scope--a fast little rifle--but during a windy day not much good on distance..
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:37:13
  I carry (on occasion) a 1937 Webley.  Its Old but effective.  I also have a short barrel i2 gage pump.
   I'm  old but effective too as I have proven in the past.  I feel if GOD doid not want me to do what I
   have done HE would cause me to miss or create a misfire.  Thank you JESUS'
   Happy Christmas every one.  

OHHHH, There's NOTHING that stikes the fear button quicker that the sound of a shell being chambered in a 12Ga pump!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fenton on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:39:56
remington 870 12ga.

a very affective deterant   :)  .. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:41:32
My friend and I chatted about that one also.  His son has one.  Same comments.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fenton on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:43:10
i really like it on entries
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Fri Dec 25, 2009 - 10:43:33
I've carried the Remington 870, the a Mossberg pump, and a Benelli auto at work over the years.  Remington 870 is way out in front!!!!!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fenton on Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 00:17:56
yes sir ree
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RalphMalph on Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 07:20:24
Should Christians own Guns?


Well, that is why 'Thou shalt not kill' is for.


If you kill one; you might like it ::yessir!::

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 21:57:36
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?


saying "should"

 kinda takes our christian freedom away in this area .

yes we can, and no we dont have to, if we dont want to.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: gwen on Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 00:26:27
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?

Hi, Charles Sloan.

There is a time and a season for everything - sadly, even death. Whether it be yours or someone else's, there is a time to kill and a time to die. 

I think that it is as personal a decision as accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I think the real question is - could you forgive yourself (thereby allowing God to forgive you) if you killed someone who may have only hurt you and left you/your family alive (hurt, yes, but alive)? In which case, the initial question would become - "Should Christians defend themselves/their families?" Because a person can be killed even with one well-placed blow to the head, chest, or throat, or with a butter knife, or a lamp, or etc, etc, etc.

Just my two cents.

God bless, All.

gwen


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: walker starr on Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 08:40:18



   I agree with you Gwen.  Weapons are all around us.  Guns aren't the only weapon.
   Intion is a weapon.  If one's intention is to kill one can always find something to
   do it with.
   The greatest weapon that exists is theHOLY SPIRIT.  tHE holyspirit PROTECTS US FROM OTHERS.  .
the  HOLY SPIRIT also protects us from ourselves when it is necessary.  Thank you JESUS amen. ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: water on Sat Apr 03, 2010 - 20:19:03
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?

2 Samuel 22:
31 "As for God, his way is perfect. All the LORD's promises prove true. He is a shield for all who look to him for protection.

32 For who is God except the LORD? Who but our God is a solid rock?

33 God is my strong fortress; he has made my way safe.



"Owning a gun" is a non-issue for me, but to what purpose for owning one?

Hunting to feed yourself or family?

Or self preservation, war, revolution?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sat Apr 03, 2010 - 20:25:32
 Well may come a time to a theater near us soon, when we will have to hunt for food, or protect our families. Let us hope I never have to use one, could not hit the side of a barn. ::noworries::  my husband owns many. If a government has ever banned guns, watch out. that was the first step of Hitler.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Sat Apr 03, 2010 - 20:55:01
Quote
but to what purpose for owning one?

Hunting to feed yourself or family?

Or self preservation, war, revolution?
 

How about all of the above?   ::smile::

This happened two days ago:

My youngest daughter works for an optometrist who shares a multi office complex with a jewelry/gold dealer.  The dealer normally has a large amount of money on hand for purchasing gold.  There is an entrance area between the two offices.  An armed man entered the dealer's side, demanded all of the money.  The dealer, who was armed and trained, drew his gun and shot and killed the armed intruder.  A silent alarm was aparently sent before the shooting because police showed up very quickly.  Any time there is an armed robbery such as this, if the armed robber has control, anyone can become a victim of this person, especially if he becomes trapped.  The armed shop owner may have saved multiple lives by taking the action he took.  My daughter had just walked out of the office for an early lunch a minute or so before the armed robber entered the offices and was safe.

My brother, who lives in colorado, missed the church shooter two years ago who was killed by a female volunteer security guard by just several minutes.  He and his family walked down the same hallway the shooter used less than five minutes later.  One of their friends was shot and seriously wounded in the parking lot as they were leaving. 

Should some Christians be armed?  The answer is YES!  should some christians be armed in the worship services?  That is an even more resounding YES!  Some one has to protect those who cannot protect themselves.  Those of us who are qualified to carry concealed weapons have an obligation on multiple levels to be protectors when called on to do so, of the innocents: the children, the elderly. the disabled,.......  This world has become infinitly more dangerous than the 1st century and some Christians were armed in the early years of the church, even among Jesus' apostles.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 18:23:31
 Christians who have guns to protect themselves... have no faith in God, as their protector......something HE said HE would do for those who kept His Commandments.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 18:27:18
Christians who have guns to protect themselves... have no faith in God, as their protector......something HE said HE would do for those who kept His Commandments.

I hope you don't go to a doctor or use the hospital, for the same argument applies.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: 3AM on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 18:52:04
Christians who have guns to protect themselves... have no faith in God, as their protector......something HE said HE would do for those who kept His Commandments.

I hope you don't go to a doctor or use the hospital, for the same argument applies.
What God does and what man does are 2 different things.

BUT the same principle applies.

Keep the Law, and you remain free from any punishment.

Most people need doctors and hospitals because they have violated a law of God.

Most illnesses stem from a disregard of God's health laws.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 18:57:19
I own several guns . if its our  time they wont save us  from being killed .Any more than a safe car with seat belts used would.
yet  if is not our  time these things  may save us  from some serious bodly injury.
it sorta works like this . If your in grizzly country which would you rather wear peanut butter or a 300 winchester magnum.
you go ahead if you want to and wear the peanut butter--- i will wear the 300 mag. rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 19:10:01
Christians who have guns to protect themselves... have no faith in God, as their protector......something HE said HE would do for those who kept His Commandments.


       Christians who should have a gun and they don't-------- are trying to  test God.

you would  make a fine target  in Afghanistan .
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 19:17:06
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?

WE CAN USE THE FORCE NECCESARRY AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK to protect us and our loved ones.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 19:29:47
If I were a good Mennonite, my answer would be close to B. 
Their reasoning behind that decision is a little different though.

They believe the commands do not kill, love your enemies, blessed are the peacemakers... even applies in cases like this.
Not that you don't take any action. 
Basically, God is in control.  He will protect and provide.



     has any one  noticed  where they choose to live?

in country's that other christian their  son's and daughters  will do there fighting and killing and dying and hurting  for them.

so they can shake there pius heads and say what a shme all this killing and dying lOOK AT US WE HAVE NO PART OF IT.







Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 19:30:56
The better question would be.............Why shouldn't we?  ::shrug::

Avenger  ::tippinghat::

AMEN
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sun Apr 04, 2010 - 20:55:20
Christians who have guns to protect themselves... have no faith in God, as their protector......something HE said HE would do for those who kept His Commandments.

I hope you don't go to a doctor or use the hospital, for the same argument applies.
What God does and what man does are 2 different things.

BUT the same principle applies.

Keep the Law, and you remain free from any punishment.

Most people need doctors and hospitals because they have violated a law of God.

Most illnesses stem from a disregard of God's health laws.


 Rom. 3, 22–24: There is no difference; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Again,
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 10:38:29
If someone breaks into my house intending to kill me and steal all of my wordly possessions it is safe to assume that he is an unredeemed sinner. If I shoot him he will go to hell and I will get to live for another day. On  the other hand, if he shoots me, I go to heaven (the Christian's goal) and he gets another chance to see the error of his ways and repent. From studying scripture it is apparent to me that the Christian should persue the latter choice.

I know that it is unlikely that the theoretical burglar would ever come to Christ but we have a real life example that is different but somewhat related. After Jeffrey Dahmer was convicted of killing many young men, no doubt many people would have liked to have seen him executed, instead he was sent to prison. While in prison he started studying bible correspondence courses and was eventually baptized into Christ by a CoC preacher. While a person is alive there is still hope that he can become a Christian. Shooting a person removes that hope. Is my soul worth more than that of an axe murderer or burglar?

When someone is after us we have a biblical example that we can run and hide - Jesus did that after causing a ruckus in the temple. We do not have a NT example of using deadly force in self-defense. The examples of justified murder from the OT came after receiving specific commands from God. Unless God tells me to smite a burglar and kill him and his family and all his cattle, I'm not going to do any smiting.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 12:24:06
 What is your purpose in having a gun? Is it to murder someone? Is it for self protection against an evil force coming at your family, or an innocent person? I would say if a person did not protect their children, or wife, or husband, or some where a crime was taking place, they are not good parents, mate, or person IMHO.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 12:50:45
Is it for self protection against an evil force coming at your family, or an innocent person? I would say if a person did not protect their children, or wife, or husband, or some where a crime was taking place, they are not good parents, mate, or person IMHO.
Yep.  My family has Mossberg Home Security System installed.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OldDad on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 13:03:15
I will shoot to kill any intruder who enters my home and threatens me or my family, and not think a second thought about it.

Thank goodness Indiana no longer has the "furtherest wall" concept of self defense - which basically means you can't act in self-defense until backed into a corner.  Instead we have the "stand your ground" concept - which means you can defend yourself against anyone who threatens to harm you.

 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: avenger on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 14:11:08
I know this discussion will instantly turn to hunting, so to squelch that this is not a discussion about owning guns for hunting or just recreational shooting; but for self defense or home defense. This is a serious question, something I have mentioned in the past I don't know where to stand.

With that said, should Christians own guns?

I'm not sure I understand the "should" part of the question.  Is there anything in God's word that would lead one to believe we Christians 'shouldn't' own guns?  

A firearm is a tool that has many uses...one of which may be home defense.

I'm a tad perplexed.   ::shrug::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Rob, PGK on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 14:22:18
Avenger-

After our last exchange, you are going to find this rather strange, but I agree with you 100%.

A gun is nothing more than a hammer, a saw, a stapler, or any other tool that completes a job swiftly and efficiently. Just like I own more than one hammer due to the different jobs that are required of them, I also own more than one gun. I actually own 8 of them, and have 2 more on my list before the year is out.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: avenger on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 18:29:30
Avenger-

After our last exchange, you are going to find this rather strange, but I agree with you 100%.

A gun is nothing more than a hammer, a saw, a stapler, or any other tool that completes a job swiftly and efficiently. Just like I own more than one hammer due to the different jobs that are required of them, I also own more than one gun. I actually own 8 of them, and have 2 more on my list before the year is out.

Not strange at all brother...I too am a walking dichotomy.  

Avenger  ::tippinghat::
  

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Tue Apr 06, 2010 - 20:39:49
 Truthfully, a robber would be safer if I came at him with a firearm. Not so much if I came after him with my dazzler. ::noworries::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 12:49:06
Anchorman:

I'm a lifelong Baptist and Christian who has owned guns for many years. I have a German p38 my father took from a dead SS officer and a Winchester Model 70 for hunting. And yes, I use condoms regularly.

I've never heard a sermon or been told that either is wrong. You and others who disagree with me should know this.

Yes, I would kill someone who tried to harm me, my family or my wife.

Yes, I'm a lifelong member of the NRA

No, I will never ask permission from you, any minister, or the church to use either of the above mentioned items.

Get that thru your head even if you never get anything else said here.

Oh, and I do look at internet porn more than occasionally. It has nothing to do with my christianity.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Third Day on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 13:05:38
I'm a Viet Nam vet who doesn't hunt and has never owned a weapon of any kind in civilian life but I totally believe that people should be able to own a firearm if they so chose. Now concealed carry is something else again
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 13:15:32
Yes, I would kill someone who tried to harm me, my family or my wife.
Yes, I'm a lifelong member of the NRA
Oh, and I do look at internet porn more than occasionally. It has nothing to do with my christianity.

You are willing to kill and you look at porn. I would say that does have something to do with your Christianity (or lack thereof).
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 15:41:30
Snargles:

Well, yours is an opinion, not a judgement. However, you don't get to decide whether or not I'm a Christian.

I followed the lead of my dad, uncles, and brother. We all owned guns, served in the military, all Baptists ,and are 3rd Degree Masons.

We've all been successful financially and in life.

So far, God hasn't voiced an objection to anything we've done.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 16:24:20
 porn, is filthy, and demonic, owning a gun is not.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 16:47:56
One wares a coat for protection against the cold.
We may have a 'check up' to see about our health.
Take a walk witha walking stick to help guard against dogs.
Ride a motercycle wear a helmet for protection.
Elbow,knee and sholder pads for a skater?
Chemo against cancer?
any one get the flu shot?

I personally know the value of having a gun for family protection.  Thanks to the Lord giving me the wisdom to know how to use it.


Luk 22:36  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: rezar on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 17:19:22
Just for the record, a homeowner a few blocks away had his placed robbed at night, when he worked.  They stole his whole gun collection.
So, since the economy is so bad, & this fella's house robbed- he now has a full security alarm system/monitoring.
Guns are good if you're home or have a concealed permit (as my husband does & I want one too soon) they are the best defense I can think of.

Christians are suppose to be instruments of peace. Granted, that is the ideal. But one must defensive bc the criminals don't just attack the heathen. It's not like they see a cross & say, "hmm, I don't think I'll shoot or rob that one!"

No. Christians need guns to protect themselves too. No one is immune to being a victim of crime.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Apr 09, 2010 - 18:00:41


I followed the lead of my dad, uncles, and brother. We all owned guns, served in the military, all Baptists ,and are 3rd Degree Masons.

We've all been successful financially and in life.

IMHO being a Mason isn't compatible with being a Christian. Masonary with all of its pseudo-religious symbolism could be construed to be a false religion. But that is just my opinion. I have also known Rotarians to act mighty silly at their meetings and no one questions their religion.

One time when I was taking a tour of our local masonic lodge meeting room I asked one of the Masons about the tin cone suspended from the ceiling. He looked to the right then he looked to the left and then he said, "Well I guess I can tell you. When fire come down from heaven, that is where it comes from." So in a room decorated with pictures of sphinxes and Egyptian pyramids and an altar looking like it is set up to sacrifice virgins, fire come down from heaven. Sounds like a religion to me.

As for being successful financially, unless you are one of the prosperity gospel proponents, I don't think that is how Christians are to measure success. Remember "Sell what you have and give it to the poor" or the rich farmer putting up new barns whose soul was required one night or "Do not store up treasures on earth"?

Some of the people in my congregation would say that you started going wrong when you became a Baptist I won't hold that against you.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: freeman on Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 17:24:26
It is better to turn the other cheek than add your sin to his.

I once was visiting my father and there were a couple of young men standing across the road talking and laughing and waiting for a ride. My stepmother complained about the noise. So my father got his gun out and asked me to take over to them force them to leave. I said no. I'm a Christian and will do no such thing. He said I was no son of his. I sold my hunting rifle and have not owned one since. Neither have I gone back to see my father, who claims to be a masonic religious leader. He was a false religious leader until his death in the desert of Arizona by snake bite. I will remain a son of God.

What do you really need a gun for? Will it gain you eternal life? I think not.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 18:12:31
 When does taking the words of Christ, twisting them, about the other cheek and love become an unhealthy extreme. Love your enemies is actually in proverbs, and Deuteronomy, and other places in the OT. Now rightly dividing the word of truth tells us self defense is good. A man is also commanded to love his wife, and protect her and his family. Can someone not see the imbalance of not rightly divding the word of truth? Defending other people  innocent) people is the right thing to do. Another thought is when the government takes our weapons, then Hitler like evilness comes about. I do not care who argues against this being a Christian nation, it was founded upon these principals. We help more than any country in the world, and the first amendment has been twisted. If we are under tyranny, we will suffer persecution, and the gospel will not be spread. I am a female who cares nothing for guns, but, my husband does, and well if he let some man rape, and kill me I would say he was a bad husband. If i saw someone killing a child, an elderly person, or handicapped, or even a man, and I had the means to wound or kill that person i would. I was reading a story in my Sundayschool book once, it has been years, and not all the details did not stuck. Here  are the cliff notes, it happened maybe after the destruction, or maybe of the temple. It was the sabbath, and some Jewish men were in a cave, with a huge stone the men could roll in front ., but, of the cave, but, because it was the sabbath, the Jews would not roll the stone in front of the cave and were murdered.  Another thing if Jesus told the disciples to own a sword, then why would he tell them they could not own a gun? One more thing then I will hush, on this one post anyways (LOL) We are commanded to love one another, not just our enemy, so folks rightly divide the word. If a person is a true believer, they will have God on their side, and the Holy spirit guiding them on when to kill or not. freeman, I understand your story, and why you would be Leary, on weapons. please forgive me, your dad was just being mean, and using a weapon in a wrong way. You have shown, even with a weapon, you did not use it in an evil or wrong way, so why not own a gun? Sorry, kept going when I said I would hush, but, these thoughts just kept coming.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 19:15:54
What happened to honor thy Father?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 19:21:07
What happened to honor thy Father?


 Sure your joking eagle.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 20:26:59
No Light i am not kidding .... from the small amount of story told seems Freeman over reacted in anger at his dad. Should Freeman gone out and brandished a weapon NO! How much Christian love was shone to the jerk of dad?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 20:42:10
Thirty + years ago bad guys, about 4 of em, kicked down our door... There were lots of kicked in door, shotgun, rapes , robberies and murders in the Sacramento area ...  If ya think a door casing with a dead bolt is secure think again..

I have always been thankfull to God for:


 Our 2 kids were hours away at grandmas
I had unlocked one lock  on a quick, second thought i relocked it
 John missed a bowling nite.  A 198 average he never missed bowling
 We had a gun.
John did not have to kill anyone.


Odd how much we can look BACK and see the hand of God. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sun Apr 11, 2010 - 22:40:51
No Light i am not kidding .... from the small amount of story told seems Freeman over reacted in anger at his dad. Should Freeman gone out and brandished a weapon NO! How much Christian love was shone to the jerk of dad?

Eagle it is like with the government, you honor, unit it goes against Christ. I would never just point a weapon at some goofy kid, who was being loud. I think it showed the nature of Christ when freeman, did not point the gun at an innocent person.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 09:18:08
Well Thank you Freeman,

I now know that I could rob your house and steal everything you own and not worry about you defending yoursefl!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 09:43:47
Snargles:

Well just FYI:

I was born into the Baptist Church and had no say in my parent's choice of a denomination. Being a Baptist doesn't mean I agree or support everything they do. In fact, at this particlular time, everyone from the senior pastor on down including their wives are idiots.

You ask why I don't just leave and find something else? I do agree with some of their views, however, they're stuck with me and mine and will have to tolerate me as best they can as they have done for 20 plus years.

As for financial success: My father gave a fellowship hall and donated a parking lot to my former church in Alabama of which he and mother were founding members and he was Deacon Board Chairman. He also won 2 city council elections and was appointed by then Gov George Wallace as a trustee of the University of North Alabama.

Finally, yes, I've owned 3 guns for nearly 20 years and have yet to kill anyone but did scare off an intruder who thought he could just walk in my garage and steal as he pleased. But make no mistake, I will put 5 hollowpoints in anyone who tries to harm me or my family or damage our rightful property.





Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimmy on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 09:50:57
It is better to turn the other cheek than add your sin to his.

I once was visiting my father and there were a couple of young men standing across the road talking and laughing and waiting for a ride. My stepmother complained about the noise. So my father got his gun out and asked me to take over to them force them to leave. I said no. I'm a Christian and will do no such thing. He said I was no son of his. I sold my hunting rifle and have not owned one since. Neither have I gone back to see my father, who claims to be a masonic religious leader. He was a false religious leader until his death in the desert of Arizona by snake bite. I will remain a son of God.

What do you really need a gun for? Will it gain you eternal life? I think not.

What do you really need food for?  Will it hain you eternal life?  I think not.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OldDad on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 11:44:30
In fact, at this particlular time, everyone from the senior pastor on down including their wives are idiots.


If everyone around you is an "idiot" - you may be the one with the problem.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Mon Apr 12, 2010 - 12:38:08
In fact, at this particlular time, everyone from the senior pastor on down including their wives are idiots.


If everyone around you is an "idiot" - you may be the one with the problem.









     rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 09:17:54
This happened yesterday while me, my wife, and my daughter were at work.  Fortunately, my future son-in-law, who is on the night shift at Wal Mart, was sleeping in my mother's upstairs guest room. 

My mother is 87.5 years old, cannot walk well without some form of mechanical assistance, she is deaf, and has moderate dementia.  She is totally dependent and cannot care for herself.  She is also a rural resident and law enforcement is not always readily available.
During the afternoon a man showed up at her door selling meat.  When he realized my mother's physical and mental problems, he then tried to talk her into giving him a signed blank check which he would fill out and then leave the meat (maybe leave the meat?).  The man's loud voice woke my daughter's fiancee who came down stairs and heard what was going on.  he then retrieved his 45 auto and confronted the man with 45 in hand, who very wisely made a very fast exit.  When the sheriff's office was called, we were informed that numerous complaints had already been filed against this man for trying to forcibly sell his meat to other older people.  When the man left, he left behind a sale flyer with his name, address, and phone number information which was then supplied to the SO.  I suspect this man has already received a phone call, if not a visit, from his local law enforcement!  The perp, who had know problem with try to extort from a helpless senior citizen, apparently did not like the idea of being faces with a .45 Colt auto held by a young man who is quite capable of making that Colt "kick" very accurately and was quite serious about doing so if needed ::smile::

Jesus had several disciples who carried personal swords, a short version of a soldier's sword.  While Jesus did not carry a personal sword that we know of during his ministry, he allowed at least two of his disciples to keep and bear a deadly weapon for defense. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 09:41:09
Quite right! I suspect many closeted Christian Liberals would rather everyone cower and run and call the police than defend ouselves and property when some piece of garbage tries to force his way into our homes.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 10:23:06
Quote
Quite right! I suspect many closeted Christian Liberals would rather everyone cower and run and call the police than defend ouselves and property when some piece of garbage tries to force his way into our homes.

That describes me. Run and hide, duck and cover, threaten with words or hit him in a non-lethal manner in the head or kneecaps with a baseball bat or lead pipe but don't do anything that would take the life of a person.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: BAH-BLAH on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 11:08:47
Quote
Quite right! I suspect many closeted Christian Liberals would rather everyone cower and run and call the police than defend ouselves and property when some piece of garbage tries to force his way into our homes.

That describes me. Run and hide, duck and cover, threaten with words or hit him in a non-lethal manner in the head or kneecaps with a baseball bat or lead pipe but don't do anything that would take the life of a person.


How do you hit someone in a non-lethal manner? How can you be sure? How can you calibrate that swing JUST so?

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 11:20:11
Quote
Quote from: Snargles on Today at 10:23:06 AM
Quote
Quite right! I suspect many closeted Christian Liberals would rather everyone cower and run and call the police than defend ouselves and property when some piece of garbage tries to force his way into our homes.

That describes me. Run and hide, duck and cover, threaten with words or hit him in a non-lethal manner in the head or kneecaps with a baseball bat or lead pipe but don't do anything that would take the life of a person.



How do you hit someone in a non-lethal manner? How can you be sure? How can you calibrate that swing JUST so?

Try for a bunt, not a home run.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 12:04:40
Blah-Blah:

You don't. Forget about the non-lethal manner. If someone's threatening me then I would give a warning, if ignored, then I would probably shoot the ground in front of him. That should do it. If he's still not convinced then I would shoot him in the leg or foot but not in the heart or head. That way you can claim self-defense and still disable him.

Not long ago, someone rang our doorbell at around 3AM one Saturday morning. I got up, looked out the opposite window and didn't recognize the guy so I grabbed my 9 MM HK and asked "What do you want" He said he wanted directions so I opened the door.

He ran. Maybe it was the sight of me standing there in my briefs and holding the gun, but he suddenly remembered his directions.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: BAH-BLAH on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 12:53:05
Blah-Blah:

You don't. Forget about the non-lethal manner. If someone's threatening me then I would give a warning, if ignored, then I would probably shoot the ground in front of him. That should do it. If he's still not convinced then I would shoot him in the leg or foot but not in the heart or head. That way you can claim self-defense and still disable him.

Not long ago, someone rang our doorbell at around 3AM one Saturday morning. I got up, looked out the opposite window and didn't recognize the guy so I grabbed my 9 MM HK and asked "What do you want" He said he wanted directions so I opened the door.

He ran. Maybe it was the sight of me standing there in my briefs and holding the gun, but he suddenly remembered his directions.

I could have done that just by appearing in my briefs! Now thats lethal
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 13:35:19
I work in nuclear security and also have a CCL and have received alot of legal and practical training over the years.  We are not trained to shoot to kill.  That is totally irresponsible training and thinking.  We are trained to shoot for center of mass to stop the action of what is occuring or about to occur.  Center of mass is the chest and is the easiest target to hit in a stress situation and will normally stop the threat immediately.  Yes, it will normally be fatal unless medical help is immediate, however, it is NOT considered a premeditated kill shot.    The same holds true for the secondary target which is always the head.  The reason for this is many felons and terriorists now have access to kevlar vests and heavy bady armor.  Again, the purpose is to stop what is occuring, not to kill the person committing a felony.  We are trained to NEVER fire warning shots and NEVER shoot for the extremities.  A warning shot would be considered firing into the air or into the ground.  Both types of warning shots are extremely dangerous to do as bullets are not picky about who they hit when fired up into the air and bullets are not picky about where they go when fired into the ground and ricochette off the small rock in the ground that you don't see or the concrete sidwalk or floor.  A friend of mine died a few years ago when hit by a ricochette while trying to shoot a skunk!  When a warning shot or a shoot to wound is the only thing you will do, it is considered the same thing as committing suicide as it gives the felon the advantage of a warning, the time to respond, and the ability to respond.

If you think you are going to hit someone with a baseball bat, pipe, or heavy board thinking this is non-leathal force, think again.  All three are considered to be deadly weapons under the law.  The laws in all states, and on the federal level, give specific guidlines for use of force and deadly force.  Just because it is not a blade or firearm does not mean it is not deadly force.  The law is fairly specific in that you can only use the amount of force, up to and including deadly force, that is directed at you.  There are exceptions, such as theft at night.  

Regarding non-lethal force, there are several acceptal methods available.  The first is pepper spray and the second is Taser and shock devices.  No one that I know of has ever died of pepper spray.  However, the possibility that the perpetrator may still be able to hurt or kill you is definitly there.  A person on a drug trip may not feel either device or chemical.  Some people have the ability to shrug off the hottest pepper sprays and still accomplish what they intend to do to you.  I have worked with several men and women who have shown us in training that this is possible.  Also, people have been known to die from Taser hits.

Now why did I say all of the above.  Simply because I see comments like "shoot the ground in front" or "fire a warning shot" or "shoot to wound" or "use non-leathal force" because we are to turn the other cheek, we are not to kill (mistranslation of the greek which actually says do not murder), etc .  Jesus, when he said "if a person slaps you on one cheek, turn to him the other" was not, IMO, stating a passifist attitude.  Jesus exhibited quite a temper in the Temple and was the person on the offensive.  The problem is we tend to take a much too literal approach to Scripture while not understanding the total historical context.  At the time of Jesus, striking someone deemed to be of a lower class with the back of the hand was used to assert authority and dominance.  If the person then "turned the other cheek," the slapper was faced with a dilemma. The left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back-hand strike on the opposite cheek would not be performed.  The alternative would be a slap with the open hand as a challenge or to punch the person.  However, this would be seen as a statement of equality. By turning the other cheek the person who was slapped was demanding equality. The historical view with the literal reading does not yield the passivist view that many want it to yield, IMO.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 15:39:42
Blah-Blah:

Well' I'm 6.0 195 pounds, hairy, and a former football player. When the guy saw "Sasquatch" staring at him with a semiautomatic he suddenly had a change of heart. My girlfriend at the time was mortified and said please put some clothes on!

In reply to the last poster, the new trend is home invasion robbery in which a guy (usually a former boyfriend or visitor) will run and kick the front door of his girlfriend's house hard and try to break the deadbolt. These guys usually aren't trained terrorists and will scare easily when confronted with a handgun or rifle. They're looking to steal something they can turn into cash quickly.

They often pretty dumb and don't plan well either because they easily show up on you home's videocam surviellance.

At worst, you're "down" for a new front door and brass handle with a deadbolt.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fish153 on Tue Apr 13, 2010 - 18:05:59
I wonder what triggered this thread?  It's been a blast reading the posts. Who is the thread targeting though?  I'm drawing a blank.  What's the aim of the thread? I figured it was worth a shot asking.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 08:35:43
Quote
In reply to the last poster, the new trend is home invasion robbery in which a guy (usually a former boyfriend or visitor) will run and kick the front door of his girlfriend's house hard and try to break the deadbolt. These guys usually aren't trained terrorists and will scare easily when confronted with a handgun or rifle. They're looking to steal something they can turn into cash quickly.


I am well aware of what is happening in this area. You would not know a terriorist if he walked right up in front you and the same holds true for the home invasionist.  The new home invasionists are nothing more than minor terriorists.  I didn't talk about "show of force" simply because it was not the subject.   If you seriously think "a show of force" is sufficient
Quote
I could have done that just by appearing in my briefs! Now thats lethal.
  rofl !, then you are under an obligation to use it
Quote
appearing in my briefs!
::nana::  before using "deadly force".  That is the law, it is also common sense, and conservative decission making.  In regards to the home invasion technique.  It's no different that what a terriorist will use.  It's called the element of surprise.  Unfortunately, if you are not ready for that then you have a problem.  Here's a link to a home intrusion that occured 70 miles north of where I live several days ago.  The 17 year old apparently surprised the intruders and died because of it.  His sister could well have been included in that but fortunatley was not.  If someone had been in the home at the time of the invasion, the same thing would have occured.  He was unarmed, 17 years old, and shot in the head.  

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Friends-Mourn-Death-of-Teen-Shot-By-Home-Intruder-90790729.html

Interestingly, the church shootings that have occured over the last several years in Ft. Worth and Colorado Springs were nothing more than one man terriorist attacks by our standards of defining terriorism.  We tend to look at them in the light of "he was insane".  However, anyone who is comitted to taking as many innocent lives as he can before he dies is nothing is insane, IMO.  If the Wedgewood Babtist Church had employeed armed security, the number of deaths may not have occured.  The church in Colorado Springs (my brother was a member at the time) did use armed security and the "terriorist" was stopped before he could enter the auditorium.

Should Christians own guns?  Definitly--- tempered by the "personal choice to not own one".  Should Christians be trained in how to safely carry them and legally use them?  Absolutely!  Anyone who chooses to own a gun should also choose to be trained and practice.  Should we be pacifists and let the "bad" guy have his way and take our lives?  ONLY if it will obviously further the cause of Christ and bring glory to God.  Otherwise, we are under an obligation to our families, friends, community, and even our country to protect those who cannot protect themselves and, IMO, protect ourselves, because if you are dead, then you will reach no one else for Christ.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 08:49:53
fish153
Quote
It's been a blast reading the posts. Who is the thread targeting though?

These threads come up on a regular basis and they tend to vary across a wide range of discussion around the original topic.

I think the target has become a shoot no shoot on this one  ::smile::

Any time I can pass on really pertinent info on use of deadly force (something that most people do not have) I try to take advantage of it just for the purpose of putting that little bit of knowledge into the back of the brain of anyone who will read it.  There is a huge amount of mis-information out there.

not to mention, they are FUN (with capital letters) to be involved in.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:00:20
benfighter
Quote
you home's videocam surviellance.


Are you saying you have a home videocam surviellance system that is computer controlled?  I'm impressed! I wish I had one  ::smile::  Of course, I would want one that included video capture from 3 seconds before the alarm that would trigger the video, multiple monitors, computer controlled alarm zone callup of the camera on my monitors, PTZ camears and auto tracking.

Oh, I guess my high tech wants took over---Sorry!  ::doh::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:03:58
Well Thank You, I'll keep this in mind and plan accordingly!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:16:19
OK Charles:

Listen carefully, pay attention, and READ MY LIPS.

I never said Christians were required to own guns, but we certainly have that option and we don't need anyone's permission to do so!

Yes, I own 2 guns in my home, an HK and a Remington Fieldmaster. Yes, I go hunting on occasion to Alaska and the Arctic.

Yes, Christians are as allowed as anyone else to use a gun for self or home protection. Yes, I would absolutely use any of the above firearms to protect my family should the occasion arise.

Why are you having so much trouble comprehending this??
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: BAH-BLAH on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:19:09
I have uploaded a hologram of benfighter in briefs, and will have that projected to my porch. I never want to see it...but my solicitation door knocks have dropped to zero, and I just noticed a certified letter from the home owners association


wonder whats that about
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:24:56
WileyClarkson:

No, I personally don't have a home surveillance cam, but many of the larger homes in my area do. My community is a gated area with controlled access and you have to have a photo ID with your address, car make and license plate number.

You can get the software but the older versions were more expensive at the time and you have to install the mini cams under the eaves of your house. I may get it later but for now I have the standard electronic security system that communicates with the police dept.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:41:25
For all you "shoot now, ask questions later" types, what is your take on Christians martyrs of the first couple of centuries? They thought it was a privilege to die for their faith. Do you think they would have been justified in striking the first sword blow and offing their assailants? Did God do one of these   ::doh:: every time a martyr acted like a Frenchman and did   ::isurrender::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:48:51
Snargles:

That's easy. Most intruders come to your house to steal from you and turn quick cash, They don't care about your faith.

It's not about dying for your faith, it's about protection of self, family, and home.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 09:52:15
For all you "shoot now, ask questions later" types, what is your take on Christians martyrs of the first couple of centuries? They thought it was a privilege to die for their faith. Do you think they would have been justified in striking the first sword blow and offing their assailants? Did God do one of these   ::doh:: every time a martyr acted like a Frenchman and did   ::isurrender::



I would like to believe i would die for Christ, even allow my family to die for Christ...


I will not allow the murder and rape of my family for the pleasure of some creep.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 10:34:10
Snargles:

That's easy. Most intruders come to your house to steal from you and turn quick cash, They don't care about your faith.

It's not about dying for your faith, it's about protection of self, family, and home.

I understand the difference but I am wondering if people in favor of shooting intruders would use different reasoning if the situation involved faith rather than material stuff. For example, would it be permissible to shoot a Muslim extremist who was out to kill us just because we are Christians, and if the answer is Yes, how would that differ from the early martyrs.

We don't have many Muslim extremists (that I know of) here in Appalachia so this is purely hypothetical on my part.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 13:28:03
Quote
what is your take on Christians martyrs of the first couple of centuries? They thought it was a privilege to die for their faith. 

Did you miss this?  I said:
Quote
Should we be pacifists and let the "bad" guy have his way and take our lives?  ONLY if it will obviously further the cause of Christ and bring glory to God.

I think I answered that question but let me clarify.  IMO, the martyrs of the early years of the church were willing to die for their faith in a public way because they believed that it brought glory to God and furthered the cause of Christ.

Eagle said: 
Quote
I would like to believe i would die for Christ, even allow my family to die for Christ...
I will not allow the murder and rape of my family for the pleasure of some creep.

Right on Bro!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 13:52:02
Quote
would it be permissible to shoot a Muslim extremist who was out to kill us just because we are Christians, 

Well, since the Muslim extremist is the major source of all terriorism, the answer is YES. 

Quote
and if the answer is Yes, how would that differ from the early martyrs.   

Muslim extremists are a small splinter group from Muslim mainstream.  They are not in control of our nation and the Muslim religion is not the official religion of the US.  The Muslim extremists are not accepted by any of the Muslims whom I know.  Whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, the Christian faith is the accepted religious view of the US.  The Congress still opens with prayer.  Christianity is not a persecuted religion as it was in the first 200 years of the church when the persecution was sanctioned by the ruling government of the time frame.  IOW, in the US, there is no comparison between then and now.  The Muslim extremist who participates in terriorism is doing so in a way that is directed at anyone who does not agree with their views, and it does not matter who gets in the path of their acts--Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc.  Their attacks are against anyone who is available at that location and the goal is simply to terrorize and murder.  They are the lowest forms of human life that exist.  ISTM that the only situation that could possibily lead to an "early Christian martyr" situation would be if one is taken prisoner by extremist/terriorist and they ask you to renounce Christ in order to live.  Personally, if I thought my family or I was about to be kidnapped by extremists/terriorists, I would attempt to send as many as possible to the fires of Hell rather than just give up and let them capture me or my family.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 14:21:05
Snargles:

Are you as opposed to Christians serving in the military as you are to them owning a gun?

I'm curious because as a Baptist I've never heard any objection to either.

All the men in my family including me had military service at some point in their lives and neither our denomination or faith had any objections.

I don't know where you're getting your information or who you talk to but I think you're trying to create a problem where none exists.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 14:56:36
Snargles:

Are you as opposed to Christians serving in the military as you are to them owning a gun?

I'm curious because as a Baptist I've never heard any objection to either.

All the men in my family including me had military service at some point in their lives and neither our denomination or faith had any objections.

I don't know where you're getting your information or who you talk to but I think you're trying to create a problem where none exists.

Even though I grew up in the Church of Christ I put off baptism for many years because I disagreed with some of the doctrine. One point in particular that bothered me was I thought Christians should be pacifists and refuse to serve in the military but I never heard that idea in a sermon or Bible class. After I was baptized I learned that until around the time of World War I the CoC had been considered a a peace church like the Quakers and Mennonites. The church had gone more mainstream and left pacificism behind by the time I came along but I held some of the same feelings as my 19th and early 20th century co-religionists. If I person wants to serve in the military as a noncombatant I wouldn't hold that against them but I don't feel that a Christian should ever serve in the military or as a policeman. On the other hand, if someone breaks into my house, who am I gonna call? A policeman with a gun. I know I am inconsistent but I don't want to cause any harm myself.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 15:07:10
Well if I had a gun I would be breaking the law, and I wouldnt have a clue where to got one or how to use it, so I'll pass.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RalphMalph on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 15:20:44
Avenger-

After our last exchange, you are going to find this rather strange, but I agree with you 100%.

A gun is nothing more than a hammer, a saw, a stapler, or any other tool that completes a job swiftly and efficiently. Just like I own more than one hammer due to the different jobs that are required of them, I also own more than one gun. I actually own 8 of them, and have 2 more on my list before the year is out.

WoW! You ended this post!
That's the TRUE WORD!  rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: BAH-BLAH on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 15:59:45
Snargles:

That's easy. Most intruders come to your house to steal from you and turn quick cash, They don't care about your faith.

It's not about dying for your faith, it's about protection of self, family, and home.

I understand the difference but I am wondering if people in favor of shooting intruders would use different reasoning if the situation involved faith rather than material stuff. For example, would it be permissible to shoot a Muslim extremist who was out to kill us just because we are Christians, and if the answer is Yes, how would that differ from the early martyrs.

We don't have many Muslim extremists (that I know of) here in Appalachia so this is purely hypothetical on my part.


Im from appalachia too, what you do have is lots who dont have a clue what Muslim Extremist means.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: BAH-BLAH on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 16:01:36
If the OP determines we should own guns, and I only own one.....am I ok?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 16:02:19


I followed the lead of my dad, uncles, and brother. We all owned guns, served in the military, all Baptists ,and are 3rd Degree Masons.

We've all been successful financially and in life.

IMHO being a Mason isn't compatible with being a Christian. Masonry with all of its pseudo-religious symbolism could be construed to be a false religion. But that is just my opinion. I have also known Rotarians to act mighty silly at their meetings and no one questions their religion.

One time when I was taking a tour of our local masonic lodge meeting room I asked one of the Masons about the tin cone suspended from the ceiling. He looked to the right then he looked to the left and then he said, "Well I guess I can tell you. When fire come down from heaven, that is where it comes from." So in a room decorated with pictures of sphinxes and Egyptian pyramids and an altar looking like it is set up to sacrifice virgins, fire come down from heaven. Sounds like a religion to me.

As for being successful financially, unless you are one of the prosperity gospel proponents, I don't think that is how Christians are to measure success. Remember "Sell what you have and give it to the poor" or the rich farmer putting up new barns whose soul was required one night or "Do not store up treasures on earth"?

Some of the people in my congregation would say that you started going wrong when you became a Baptist I won't hold that against you.


Masonry is evil and can bring curses on you and your family. My dad was a mason and so I know a bit about it. You are worshipping something in freemasonry, but it isn't God that's for sure.

Benfighter. If you look at porn, are more than willing to shoot anyone, and are a mason, you have serious problems.
Do you want to obey God or not? if not then why are you here on a Christian forum? Just because your father and relatives did something, that doesn't make it right. You have a mind of your own don't you? You can read the Bible cant you?Then be your own man and stand up for what is right instead of following your relatives down the wrong path.

 If I were you I would read books by Christians who have come out of freemasonry and see what evil it is, and what it is  really all about. Also porn is evil and totally against what God teaches about faithfulness and purity.Its damaging you spiritually and also damaging your marriage whether you think so or not. Maybe you wouldn't mind your daughter (if you have one) being on these porn sites? These women are all someones daughter, and did you also know that a large number of women who are involved in porn were sexually abused as little girls?. Not a very godly thing to do really is it.

Goodness, you even sound proud of these evil and damaging things and that is even more concerning.  One last thing being rich in a  worldly way is no guarantee of Gods blessing as we can see from the world around us.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 16:12:43
Avenger-

After our last exchange, you are going to find this rather strange, but I agree with you 100%.

A gun is nothing more than a hammer, a saw, a stapler, or any other tool that completes a job swiftly and efficiently. Just like I own more than one hammer due to the different jobs that are required of them, I also own more than one gun. I actually own 8 of them, and have 2 more on my list before the year is out.
 

A stapler or other tool arent made to kill and maim.They are made to do a job of work. Why on earth would you need so many guns, you only have two hands dont you? 
I just dont get it. Why anyone could actually enjoy shooting a living creature or person I have no idea. The reason why so many people there are shot is because most people have guns.The reasons why you have so many massacres in schools and colleges is because guns are so easy to get. Its pure madness. Guns are for one purpose and that is to end life.
I am so glad I live in a country where they are illegal,and where the police dont have to have one as a matter of course.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 20:04:56
One gun for small varmints
one for deer
a bigger one for elk
one for your family member who always forgets his
one for targets
one for fun
one cause it was your dad's
a good shotgun for the bad guy
one for ducks

The meat we had to eat, and felt very much it was provided by God, was venison. The fish was most often trout. Dad made the best jerky..

The view that guns kill people just doesn't ring true to me.  People kill people..... If the Jews just before Hitler had had a few more guns just maybe,,,


People killed people long before guns.

Gen 4:8  And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.


I hope and pray you are never in a situation where you wish you would have had a gun... been there it is not pleasent.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jimbob on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 20:15:58
The day an armed robber was roaming our neighborhood, we were locked and loaded.  Hey, it's not often you get warning, but when you do, you get ready.

"If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into."  Mt. 35:43, NIV
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 20:20:17
One gun for small varmints
one for deer
a bigger one for elk
one for your family member who always forgets his
one for targets
one for fun
one cause it was your dad's
a good shotgun for the bad guy
one for ducks


You can get one remote to run all your AV equipment. Can't you get one gun that will work on all critters?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 21:55:49
Quote
I am so glad I live in a country where they are illegal,and where the police dont have to have one as a matter of course.

Well, just because they are illegal doesn't mean they are not out there and your police do have firearms available, some of them are now carrying all the time because it has become too dangerous not to!  Good grief, the IRA has had guns for years even though they are illegal!  Making guns illegal has created a high value black market in your country.  The other thing it has done is penalize the honest person who would never use a firearm for an illegal purpose.  I've read about your justice system and how honest people can end up in prison for having an unregistered double barrell shotgun for shooting ducks.  God forbid they use it on a burglar who might have a very big and sharp knife, which is the single deadliest weapon for personal use ever invented.  They would get a stiffer sentence than the person committing the breakin!  More people have died by blade weapons than all the firearms, bombs, gas, and other weapons put together!  If someone breaks into your house and is armed with a very big blade, how are you going to protect yourself?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 21:59:34
Quote
You can get one remote to run all your AV equipment. Can't you get one gun that will work on all critters?

Can you build a house with just a hammer?  Tools are specialized for the job you need to do.  The same holds true for firearms.  They are built and customized for the job at hand and no one firearm is going to be for more than a couple of uses.  Do you purchase a car or truck for just puttering around or do you purchase your vehicle for what you plan to use it for?  Same reasons apply to purchasing a firearm.

I have 9 long guns and 4 hand guns with plans to purchase another deer rifle and another handgun this year.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: walker starr on Wed Apr 14, 2010 - 22:02:30
Quote
I am so glad I live in a country where they are illegal,and where the police dont have to have one as a matter of course.

Well, just because they are illegal doesn't mean they are not out there and your police do have firearms available, some of them are now carrying all the time because it has become too dangerous not to!  Good grief, the IRA has had guns for years even though they are illegal!  Making guns illegal has created a high value black market in your country.  The other thing it has done is penalize the honest person who would never use a firearm for an illegal purpose.  I've read about your justice system and how honest people can end up in prison for having an unregistered double barrell shotgun for shooting ducks.  God forbid they use it on a burglar who might have a very big and sharp knife, which is the single deadliest weapon for personal use ever invented.  They would get a stiffer sentence than the person committing the breakin!  More people have died by blade weapons than all the firearms, bombs, gas, and other weapons put together!  If someone breaks into your house and is armed with a very big blade, how are you going to protect yourself?
                        MACHETE    ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: RalphMalph on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 02:56:59
Avenger-

After our last exchange, you are going to find this rather strange, but I agree with you 100%.

A gun is nothing more than a hammer, a saw, a stapler, or any other tool that completes a job swiftly and efficiently. Just like I own more than one hammer due to the different jobs that are required of them, I also own more than one gun. I actually own 8 of them, and have 2 more on my list before the year is out.
 

The reasons why you have so many massacres in schools and colleges is because guns are so easy to get. Its pure madness.


"You are missing the point, yet I'm sure you know it's still a chair." ::hiding::

Anyone can reach for the nearest object and use it for as a Lethal Weapon.

i know what you're thinking....NO! humans are not the problem.


too much entertainment is the problem. entertainment softens the mind into a foolish muck!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: BAH-BLAH on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 06:58:09
Avenger-

After our last exchange, you are going to find this rather strange, but I agree with you 100%.

A gun is nothing more than a hammer, a saw, a stapler, or any other tool that completes a job swiftly and efficiently. Just like I own more than one hammer due to the different jobs that are required of them, I also own more than one gun. I actually own 8 of them, and have 2 more on my list before the year is out.
 

A stapler or other tool arent made to kill and maim.They are made to do a job of work. Why on earth would you need so many guns, you only have two hands dont you?  
I just dont get it. Why anyone could actually enjoy shooting a living creature or person I have no idea. The reason why so many people there are shot is because most people have guns.The reasons why you have so many massacres in schools and colleges is because guns are so easy to get. Its pure madness. Guns are for one purpose and that is to end life.
I am so glad I live in a country where they are illegal,and where the police dont have to have one as a matter of course.


When Im in the UK I read the papers, often I watch BBC when Im all over Europe. And I read the UK news online some. I see marauding gangs of teens armed with knives, or young men, in some areas, basically unrestrained and unrestrainable. I had to laugh last fall when there big row was some kind of ticket the cops can write about "anti-social behavior"  they pass by a marauding gang, write them a ticket.......(or not...saw cops interviewed who thought it was a joke)
Knives are there what guns are here. On top of that, the laws protect the criminals where you have a criminal break in with a knife, an old lasy strikes him with a wicket or bat, he gets hurt, she gets prosecuted.

The crime RATES are similar, the nature of the crimes are different. Also, the geography of the crimes tells a lot.

Its reasonable to conclude from afar about our guns that simply, if we stopped, all would be well. But notwithstanding its a big part of our culture, frankly there are too many guns now to go that way...it will NEVER happen. Given that fact, we are where we are.

Legals guns cause almost NO problems. As states license carry, crime decreases and NO increase in gun violence results, these are new study results that the main press dislike. The bad guys have guns, its that simple.

As to "taking life" Im always amazed , unless you are vegan, you have no standing on that. We eat what we kill.

I cannot hunt deer anymore and I used to. I cannot pull the trigger on them. I have no issue with it...its just not for me. But, I DO hunt birds, which is a challenging fun sport and we eat them, the quail and dove we kill. Outstanding fun.

You need a different gun for birds than you do for deer, pretty much.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 09:00:08
Quote
MACHETE

That will work---he has a blade---you use a bigger blade!!!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 11:58:37
chosenone:

Well, like I said before, yours is an opinion, not a judgement.

I can say you don't sound like much of an authority on the subject of Freemasonry. However, I won't argue it here.

Secondly, Yes, I've looked at porn for many years. I'm simply being honest about and I'm not promoting it's use. I can tell you that my fellow Christians have been "less than helpful" in my search for help and guidance in this situation.

Finally, my ownership of firearms is not negotiable and as an American, I'm really not concerned with how you as a Canadian view our constitutional rights.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 15:39:08
It greatly disappoints me that so many posters who say they are Christians seem to ignore the Christian attributes of being humble, meek and lowly folk and instead stand up for their rights. Just because our civil government gives us certain rights doesn't mean we have to exercise them. Jesus had the right to strike dead anyone who looked at him cross-eyed yet he allowed himself to be crucified. We might live in the US, Canada, Gambia or Mongolia but our true citizenship is in heaven and it is God's laws that should govern us.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 15:58:16
Snargles:

Wow! Spoken like a true spineless, gutless, weakling. I don't think I could add much to that!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 16:07:56
Snargles:

Wow! Spoken like a true spineless, gutless, weakling. I don't think I could add much to that!

That's me. But since I will only walk the earth a few years compared to an eternity in heaven I can put up with it. That's what believing in the Bible is all about.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 18:47:23
Most folks who want the world to believe they are non violent just let some one else take care of business...
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 19:26:19
Most folks who want the world to believe they are non violent just let some one else take care of business...

Guilty as charged. As I mentioned above, when confronted with a burglar I wouldn't shoot him but I would call a cop. I would prefer that the cop tazered him rather than plugged him between the eyes.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Thu Apr 15, 2010 - 20:36:14
Quote
when confronted with a burglar I wouldn't shoot him but I would call a cop.

Chances are, given the normal response times for law enforcement, if you confront a burglar who is carrying a gun in your home, you will not live long enough to see a law enforcement officer use a firearm or tazer.  Only an idiot with a death wish would take on an armed felon with a tazer.

A 17 year old young man in Ft Worth was murdered in his home in the middle of the day by a burglar carrying a gun.  His sister was lucky and got out but even if she had called the police (and may have) he still died because even a 30 second hesitation is too long when facing a person with a firearm.

Quote
It greatly disappoints me that so many posters who say they are Christians seem to ignore the Christian attributes of being humble, meek and lowly folk and instead stand up for their rights.

We don't disregard scripture.  We just have a different understanding of Jesus' teachings than you have and how Jesus applied those attributes that you call being humble, meek, and lowly.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: freeman on Fri Apr 16, 2010 - 15:42:11
When the soldiers came for Jesus, did he hole up with firearms? No.
He healed one of the soldiers and went with them peacefully.
Did he recommend you commit murder to protect your worldly goods? No.
He said turn the other cheek. He also said if you love your life, you will lose it.
He also said I came not to unite but to separate the chaff from the grain, brother against brother, son against father.
Committing murder is against God's law. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not break it. He is the master, I am the student. If they hated him they will surely hate me as well. My father and brothers are those who believe as I do, as Jesus taught. I honor them and my master who taught forgiveness and love.
I never once said I was angry with my gun toting father. I simply don't have anything to do with those who teach and promote false doctrine. The Lord will be his judge.
Jesus said what of Judas, what is he to you? Go and do as I commanded.
No one is going to take from me what the Lord has given. Do you command the Lord? The proud shall be humbled.

Blessed are those gather, and not scatter. 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Fri Apr 16, 2010 - 20:38:04
I pray you are never cornered as i was.  I pray you never have to watch your wife and children be raped.  

Some of you guys remind me of the old joke....

The floods had come  Joe was on the roof top praying for God to rescue him.....

A neighbour  boated up asking if any one need rescue  Joe said no   God will take care of me...

A few hours later the water is rising Fire and Rescue are out looking for survivors.. they come up Joe sent them away   God will take care of me...

The rains come again the helicopter is hovering  Joe   again says  NOPE   God will take care of me

The water swept the house away Joe went with it..

Joe is in heaven he asked  WHY   WHY  I was praying i had faith You would rescue me..... God said     Joe  who sent the  neighbour, the fire & rescue the ........
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: freeman on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 19:02:28
Old jokes will never replace the Word of God. If you choose to live your life in fear, who's choice is it?

Though I walk through the valley of death I fear no evil. That is my faith. Can a gun take the eternal life from me that the Lord gave? I have been through worse and lived. I am not afraid of death, neither am I afraid to belong to the Lord. If you choose to live in fear behind a gun, go to it and let righteous be righteous still.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 20:38:55
Old jokes will never replace the Word of God. If you choose to live your life in fear, who's choice is it?

Though I walk through the valley of death I fear no evil. That is my faith. Can a gun take the eternal life from me that the Lord gave? I have been through worse and lived. I am not afraid of death, neither am I afraid to belong to the Lord. If you choose to live in fear behind a gun, go to it and let righteous be righteous still.
[/quote

 Hi, while I disagree freeman with your position, we all have to live by our own convictions. What is not of faith bis sin.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: freeman on Sat Apr 17, 2010 - 20:46:10
I realize it's a leap of faith few are willing to take. I do not condemn them for it. But who are they to condemn the servant of another? I serve the Lord. They should remove the board from their own eye before they worry about the sliver in mine. Just remember this, those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword. I have nothing more to say on the subject. They have heard the truth.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: jessie70 on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 11:24:01
does scripture not say....."vengeance is mine", saith the lord.             also when he was betrayed and the guards ear was cut off did we not learn its not ok?   also in the 10 commandments it says..."THY SHALL NOT KILL".   where in scripture does it say that killing for any reason is ok?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 11:48:35
Num 25:5  And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

Jos 10:19  And stay ye not, but pursue after your enemies, and smite the hindmost of them; suffer them not to enter into their cities: for the LORD your God hath delivered them into your hand.


Num 25:17  Vex the Midianites, and smite them:


Jdg 15:16  And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.




There are number of places in Scripture were the killing of a person or a whole peoples was acceptable...

There is a big difference between defence of a nation, defence of home, defence of a person, and murder. 

Deu 19:10  That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Bad guys breaking into your home are not innocent.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 13:25:57
Num 25:5  And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

Jos 10:19  And stay ye not, but pursue after your enemies, and smite the hindmost of them; suffer them not to enter into their cities: for the LORD your God hath delivered them into your hand.


Num 25:17  Vex the Midianites, and smite them:


Jdg 15:16  And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.




There are number of places in Scripture were the killing of a person or a whole peoples was acceptable...

There is a big difference between defence of a nation, defence of home, defence of a person, and murder. 

Deu 19:10  That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Bad guys breaking into your home are not innocent.

When you look at OT passages such as these, God or God's prophet is telling his people to go after a specific group of people. If today God would tell us to slay all of the people from West Virginia then of course we would kill all of the West Virginians. But God doesn't operate that way on this side of the cross. Where is a NT passage that says we should kill burglars, rapists, murderers or a nationality that our government has declared to be an enemy of the state?

As for your last statement that bad guys breaking into your house are not innocent, before you call them guillty and shoot them  make sure they are not drunk or otherwise disoriented and think they are getting into their own home. With new housing developments with ticky-tacky houses I don't know how anyone ever finds the right house.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 14:15:38
 This may sound crazy, but, in my Spirit, by the (Holy Spirit ) I believe this is what I think is wisdom comes to my mind, the Story of Timothy Tredwell, and the brown bears. I bet he wished he would have not trusted in the bears, when he and his girlfriend was being eaten by them. I do not know why, this is what my spirit says, believe it recieve it or not        .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell



Guns are comprised of metal, at times wood and perhaps polymers, etc.  These elements all exists without the capacity to murder.  That is something that solely resides in the evil hearts of men.  Guns are used for hunting, recreation and self-protection more than to harm others.  The evidence exists that the banning of guns do not prevent murder.  In fact, man finds other ways to murder.
The bottom line for me is that while I might like to hang with the bears and find them interesting, I would never trust the bear and would also have a weapon available to protect myself against the bear.

Yet it is a free society. So if you want to hang unprotected with the bears, you have a right to take that chance.  But just because you want to, does not mean that I do.



Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 15:48:34



The question answered was
Quote
where in scripture does it say that killing for any reason is ok?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So if a drunk guy rapes and murders it is ok? 

 I was very relieved John did not have to shoot the bad guys  their shotgun went off in the ceiling. 

If bad guys ( in our case there were 4 of 'em) ever broke into your home how would you protect your family?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 16:00:35
This may sound crazy, but, in my Spirit, by the (Holy Spirit ) I believe this is what I think is wisdom comes to my mind, the Story of Timothy Tredwell, and the brown bears. I bet he wished he would have not trusted in the bears, when he and his girlfriend was being eaten by them. I do not know why, this is what my spirit says, believe it recieve it or not        .[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell[/url]



Guns are comprised of metal, at times wood and perhaps polymers, etc.  These elements all exists without the capacity to murder.  That is something that solely resides in the evil hearts of men.  Guns are used for hunting, recreation and self-protection more than to harm others.  The evidence exists that the banning of guns do not prevent murder.  In fact, man finds other ways to murder.
The bottom line for me is that while I might like to hang with the bears and find them interesting, I would never trust the bear and would also have a weapon available to protect myself against the bear.

Yet it is a free society. So if you want to hang unprotected with the bears, you have a right to take that chance.  But just because you want to, does not mean that I do.






If I am going to hang out with bears I want a gun, a big one. I have nothing against people owning guns to hunt with or to shoot foxes in the chicken coop, my problem is with using guns on people. If I was going to research a National Geographic article on the drug culture in the inner city (sort of equivalent to Tim Tredwell living with bears) I might be tempted to pack some heat but in the interrest of staying true to my beliefs I think I would turn down the assignment and ask to cover kiddy beauty pageants instead. The moms are just as vicious as bears and crackheads but guns wouldn't be necessary.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 16:05:30

So if a drunk guy rapes and murders it is ok?

If bad guys ( in our case there were 4 of 'em) ever broke into your home how would you protect your family?

Of course it is not OK. God will punish him.
If someone broke into my house I would try a combination of running, hiding, swinging a 2x4, throwing bricks and probably crapping my pants since I don't own a gun.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 16:07:06
Gluttony is also a sin. Should we shoot the gluttons?
That way there would be more food for the rest of us at pot lucks.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 16:42:30
This may sound crazy, but, in my Spirit, by the (Holy Spirit ) I believe this is what I think is wisdom comes to my mind, the Story of Timothy Tredwell, and the brown bears. I bet he wished he would have not trusted in the bears, when he and his girlfriend was being eaten by them. I do not know why, this is what my spirit says, believe it recieve it or not        .[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell[/url]



Guns are comprised of metal, at times wood and perhaps polymers, etc.  These elements all exists without the capacity to murder.  That is something that solely resides in the evil hearts of men.  Guns are used for hunting, recreation and self-protection more than to harm others.  The evidence exists that the banning of guns do not prevent murder.  In fact, man finds other ways to murder.
The bottom line for me is that while I might like to hang with the bears and find them interesting, I would never trust the bear and would also have a weapon available to protect myself against the bear.

Yet it is a free society. So if you want to hang unprotected with the bears, you have a right to take that chance.  But just because you want to, does not mean that I do.






If I am going to hang out with bears I want a gun, a big one. I have nothing against people owning guns to hunt with or to shoot foxes in the chicken coop, my problem is with using guns on people. If I was going to research a National Geographic article on the drug culture in the inner city (sort of equivalent to Tim Tredwell living with bears) I might be tempted to pack some heat but in the interrest of staying true to my beliefs I think I would turn down the assignment and ask to cover kiddy beauty pageants instead. The moms are just as vicious as bears and crackheads but guns wouldn't be necessary.





 LOL snargles, probably right about the kiddie pageants. I am serious though the Timothy Tredwell comes to my spirit, I firmly believe by the Holy Spirit, when talking about this issue.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:34:31
Gluttony is also a sin. Should we shoot the gluttons?
That way there would be more food for the rest of us at pot lucks.

You must be Baptist!   ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:38:32
Gluttony is also a sin. Should we shoot the gluttons?
That way there would be more food for the rest of us at pot lucks.

You must be Baptist!   ::smile::

He's the spiritual grandchild of a Baptist and a Presbyterian!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:42:00
Gluttony is also a sin. Should we shoot the gluttons?
That way there would be more food for the rest of us at pot lucks.

You must be Baptist!   ::smile::

He's the spiritual grandchild of a Baptist and a Presbyterian!



 listen the really good cooks are the little Pentecostal women, that dress modestly and wear buns.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Sun Apr 18, 2010 - 17:45:45
 Look David killed lions and bears, and Giants with a sling shot. After killing in the name of the Lord with a slingshot, he took and chopped off Goliaths head with Goliaths own sword. Self defense is not evil, and it disturbs me this line of thinking quite honestly.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: WileyClarkson on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 12:13:08
Snargles said:
Quote
swinging a 2x4, throwing bricks  

Well, you just failed the don't use deadly weapons/deadly force test.  2x4s are considered to be deadly weapons if used in a manner that can kill-----and swinging a 2x4 as hard as you can will kill if it contacts a human head and permanently and very severly injure if it contacts other areas of the body.  Same for a brick that is either thrown old used as a hand held weapon!  They are both just as deadly as a firearm.  You also failed the taking care of those entrusted to you by God to protect test by running and hiding.

Quote
probably crapping my pants since I don't own a gun.

 rofl  Guess you would pass that one, along with most of us  ::scared::  That's something most will do EVEN IF they do have a gun!!!   ::help::  Being faced with deadly force directed at you has a tendency to cause instant scours or instant wet pants syndrome  either before or after.  However, during you will be puckered up so tight nothing will be able to get out!!!!!  ::smile::

Quote
since I don't own a gun.

 Remember, the gun is only a tool.  I always try to own the best tool for the job at hand.  And yes, I am a tool nut  ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: lightshineon on Mon Apr 19, 2010 - 16:51:37
 Well just as I was laying in my sick bed ( I think last night, I am in a time warp), anyway, I was watching a show on DHC, and it was called " I survived" the show has people tell how they survived different life threatening situations.  It has three different stories, and goes back, and forth. It just so happens one story was about a home invasion, where a woman was shot, and her husband, There were three men. She did shoot and kill one man, she felt sorry she had taken a human life, as she was Christian woman, She said, he had a son if the son came to her one day, and ask why she had killed her dad, She said " I will tell him he left me no choice." Then the other story was of a brown bear attack (LOL) kind of wondered if God was still speaking to me about the Timothy Treadwell in above post. I would feel very, very, sad to kill another human or animal, even by accident, sometimes though, like the dear Christan woman on that show, said your left with no choice.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Fri Apr 30, 2010 - 10:45:21
Another relevant question might be: Is a Chirstian who owns a gun allowed to use it in defense of family and home if threatened by another gun-owning Christian?

My answer is yes. It doesn't matter who the offender is or their spiritual state, gender, or race. If someone tries to harm me or my family by forcing entry into my home in a hostile manner then I will put 5 hollowpoints right thru them.

My Christianity is in no way connected to my ownership of a gun for protection. In addition, my gun ownership does not diminish my Christianity in any way contrary to the beliefs of others.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: walker starr on Fri Apr 30, 2010 - 11:01:00



   I seriously doubt another Christian would attack someone who was
   also a Christian.  Unless there were very unusual circumstance.  There
   would have to be something like dementia or mistaken identity. This
   relates to any weapon gun brick or two by four or whatever.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Apr 30, 2010 - 12:53:29



   I seriously doubt another Christian would attack someone who was
   also a Christian.  Unless there were very unusual circumstance.  There
   would have to be something like dementia or mistaken identity. This
   relates to any weapon gun brick or two by four or whatever.

When two countries go to war they always ask God to be on their side. In WWI the Orthodox Russians, Anglican English, Lutheran and Catholic Germans and mixed-bag Americans fought each other. During the American Civil War soldiers on opposite sides were members of denominations that had only recently split into northern and southern camps.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: walker starr on Fri Apr 30, 2010 - 13:48:44



   I seriously doubt another Christian would attack someone who was
   also a Christian.  Unless there were very unusual circumstance.  There
   would have to be something like dementia or mistaken identity. This
   relates to any weapon gun brick or two by four or whatever.

When two countries go to war they always ask God to be on their side. In WWI the Orthodox Russians, Anglican English, Lutheran and Catholic Germans and mixed-bag Americans fought each other. During the American Civil War soldiers on opposite sides were members of denominations that had only recently split into northern and southern camps.

   Yeah but they were different kind of Christians.LOL

   Seriously That thought came to mind right after  I had posted.  I don't know
   the answer.  I'm not sure there is one.  How about the christians who pray
   for a particular team to win at sports.  I doubt that GOD intervenes.
   In the case of the wars you mentioned one prevented universal slavery
   and genocide  the other gave freedom to a race and abolished slavery.
   No one can answer the questions to GOD's will.  We can all question
   but we can't answer.
   GOD bless.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Fri Jun 04, 2010 - 13:04:17
I believe that Christians are free to own guns and be willing to use them in defense of self and/or family without any grief from the pulpit or the anti-gun lobby.  Any Christian including myself is also free to Open Carry his or her handgun in public if within the law.

My message to anyone opposed to the above statement is this:

If you don't like our constitutional rights to gun ownership then leave and find another country. There are plenty of us who believe you can be a Christian and own firearms. Those of you who disagree don't write the rules of Christianity and you don't get to decide who is included.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Jun 04, 2010 - 14:49:42
Quote
There are plenty of us who believe you can be a Christian and own firearms. Those of you who disagree don't write the rules of Christianity and you don't get to decide who is included.

Excuuuuuuse me. I didn't realize the pope was a member of the board.    ::liturgy::

What else can I not make desicions about?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Todd Grace on Fri Jun 04, 2010 - 22:52:09
listen the really good cooks are the little Pentecostal women, that dress modestly and wear buns.

I'm a really good cook but I dress scantily [ FL beach] and have nice buns. Does that count?  rofl

But seriously I was just given an antique shotgun. The barrels have some exterior rust but otherwise it looks to be in great shape. If anyone has experience in restoration and knows a cleaning trick to restore the rusted exterior barrels I would appreciate it. I'm taking it to a gun smith tommarrow to check it's age and make. The shotgun is huge and heavy. It looks like an elephant gun.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Fri Jun 04, 2010 - 23:42:15
Dont clean it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Todd Grace on Sat Jun 05, 2010 - 15:36:45
I know some antiques lose value when refinished but do you think the value would be affected by removing the rust? It's just in spots on the outside barrels.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Mon Jun 28, 2010 - 12:38:49
All the gun haters and anti-gun liberal christians should read today's US Supreme Court decision.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Jun 28, 2010 - 13:41:04
I read the news headlines about it and I disagree with the Supreme Court. I understand the mind of the original writers of the Constitution better than the Godless conservative justices do and I don't mind saying it. If I wasn't such a meek and lowly Christian I would recommend that they be taken out, covered with cream and a thousand cats be allowed to lick them until they are driven quite mad. But since I am above that all I can do is pray for them and for the poor misguided souls that think gun ownership is the path to true manhood. I am glad Jesus wasn't packing heat when the Roman soldiers came looking for him or we would all be facing an eternity in hell.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Mon Jun 28, 2010 - 17:40:23
Don't flatter yourself Snargles, I'm not impressed with your speech about being meek and lowly. I will say that I never knew a liberal who didn't think extremely highly of himself or herself to the point of debasing others. That makes you  narcissistic and self-gratifying; two sins within themselves.

In reality, I'll bet you aren't much of a Christian at all; and before you ask, yes, I'm judging you.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Jun 28, 2010 - 20:14:08
Quote
In reality, I'll bet you aren't much of a Christian at all; and before you ask, yes, I'm judging you.

I go to church 3 times a week whether I've sinned or not. With VBS coming up I'll be there even more days.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 09:45:37
Whether you've sinned or not?? Are you kidding me??

You just fed the Bible and the basis of the Christian life through the office shredder.

Whatever happened to "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God?"

You're a sinner, Snargles, just as much as me or anyone else on this blog. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of being anything else.

You liberal retards really are as dumb as dirt. And no, you're not a saved liberal retard.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 11:58:40
Whether you've sinned or not?? Are you kidding me??

You just fed the Bible and the basis of the Christian life through the office shredder.

Whatever happened to "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God?"

You're a sinner, Snargles, just as much as me or anyone else on this blog. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of being anything else.

You liberal retards really are as dumb as dirt. And no, you're not a saved liberal retard.



Some tips for getting through life:

1. Learn to recognize sarcasm.
2. Be slow to judge others, especially those with whom you have only exchanged one internet posting.
3. Don't call people names. Some might be offended.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 14:23:26
Quote
You liberal retards really are as dumb as dirt. And no, you're not a saved liberal retard.

 
 
 
No need to go over the line... Sheesh  If ones ideals are sound one does not need to name call. Stand on your ideals.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 14:52:30
Don't flatter yourself Snargles, I'm not impressed with your speech about being meek and lowly. I will say that I never knew a liberal who didn't think extremely highly of himself or herself to the point of debasing others. That makes you  narcissistic and self-gratifying; two sins within themselves.

In reality, I'll bet you aren't much of a Christian at all; and before you ask, yes, I'm judging you.

Wow...........  Quite a wide brush, or mop..........lol

While you are in that judging mood, have you considered judging yourself lately?? ::idea::

Just a thought........  ::nodding::

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 16:21:06
While you are in that judging mood, have you considered judging yourself lately??


No, I haven't. I'm not the one who has a problem with gun ownership here.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 19:40:54
While you are in that judging mood, have you considered judging yourself lately??


No, I haven't. I'm not the one who has a problem with gun ownership here.

This is why some places have a waiting period before allowing gun purchases. Some folk can be a little quick to anger.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 19:50:53
rotf   manna to you snargles
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 21:33:36
While you are in that judging mood, have you considered judging yourself lately??


No, I haven't. I'm not the one who has a problem with gun ownership here.

My comment had nothing to do w/ gun ownership........

SO, now that I had to break that down for you, what do you think it was in reference tO????
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 22:14:20
I expect the moderators to step in here soon because, iirc, it is against forum rules to say someone else is gaping maw material.

I've got about 6 or 7 guns and I'm a Christian.  If Snargles doesn't want to have a gun, then Snargles doesn't have to have one.  When I read the conversion accounts in Acts, no one was asked about them in order to become a Christian so I want ask anyone about them now.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 22:28:44
I expect the moderators to step in here soon because, iirc, it is against forum rules to say someone else is gaping maw material.

I've got about 6 or 7 guns and I'm a Christian.  If Snargles doesn't want to have a gun, then Snargles doesn't have to have one.  When I read the conversion accounts in Acts, no one was asked about them in order to become a Christian so I want ask anyone about them now.

Quote
gaping maw material
.I don't know what that means but it seems to the newb is getting out of line calling ppl lib retards & all that.....

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 22:38:54
We have guns a bunch of em. The bad guys broke into our home....never again will guns all be unloaded.  Yet I am very thankfull DH did not have to shoot anyone!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 22:44:35
We have guns a bunch of em. The bad guys broke into our home....never again will guns all be unloaded.  Yet I am very thankfull DH did not have to shoot anyone!


So the crime was prevented then??

I have had this debate many times............  Having a gun is a deterrent.........

While I would not want to hurt anyone I would not want them hurting my girls either... 



Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 23:29:18
Yes it was.   He jabbed the unloaded gun under the 1 guys chin it pushed him over the swivel chair. The bad guys shotgun went off in the ceiling.  the 3 other guys thankfully did not know it was unloaded.

Looking back at that time i see so many ways God took care of us.



Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Mere Nick on Tue Jun 29, 2010 - 23:32:49
I expect the moderators to step in here soon because, iirc, it is against forum rules to say someone else is gaping maw material.

I've got about 6 or 7 guns and I'm a Christian.  If Snargles doesn't want to have a gun, then Snargles doesn't have to have one.  When I read the conversion accounts in Acts, no one was asked about them in order to become a Christian so I want ask anyone about them now.

Quote
gaping maw material
.I don't know what that means but it seems to the newb is getting out of line calling ppl lib retards & all that.....



in reference to the gaping maw of hell.  It's a long story as to why you may see the term here every once and a while.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 00:10:23
Yes it was.   He jabbed the unloaded gun under the 1 guys chin it pushed him over the swivel chair. The bad guys shotgun went off in the ceiling.  the 3 other guys thankfully did not know it was unloaded.

Looking back at that time i see so many ways God took care of us.





LOL..............  W/ no time to think it is a great testimony of but by the Grace of God go I.......
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 00:13:05
I expect the moderators to step in here soon because, iirc, it is against forum rules to say someone else is gaping maw material.

I've got about 6 or 7 guns and I'm a Christian.  If Snargles doesn't want to have a gun, then Snargles doesn't have to have one.  When I read the conversion accounts in Acts, no one was asked about them in order to become a Christian so I want ask anyone about them now.

Quote
gaping maw material
.I don't know what that means but it seems to the newb is getting out of line calling ppl lib retards & all that.....



in reference to the gaping maw of hell.  It's a long story as to why you may see the term here every once and a while.

Okay my brotha', if one day you have time pls fill me in...........

ThnX
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 06:04:36
They shouldn't own knives either.  Or baseball bats.  Or piano wire.  Or have hands (could make a fist).  Or have cleaning solutions in the house. Or have a car. Or have fingers to type or a voice box (slander can kill).  Or ....
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 06:59:12
I just want us all to live together in peace and harmony, buy each other a Coke, don't crowd the line at potlucks, walk 2 miles when we are asked to walk one, give away our 5 buckle arctics when asked for our coat, wipe the runny nose of the kid next to us, sing perfect 4 part harmony, give peace signs after the closing prayer, keep the bapistry water warm and be ready to leave this life for the next when someone comes after us with a gun.

I am in no hurry to die, I like the present world, but I don't want to have to make the decison about who is going to get blown away, me or the unrepetant-godless-murdering-sure-to-go-to-hell thug pointing a gun at my head.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: zoonance on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 07:23:57
I just want us all to live together in peace and harmony, buy each other a Coke, don't crowd the line at potlucks, walk 2 miles when we are asked to walk one, give away our 5 buckle arctics when asked for our coat, wipe the runny nose of the kid next to us, sing perfect 4 part harmony, give peace signs after the closing prayer, keep the bapistry water warm and be ready to leave this life for the next when someone comes after us with a gun.

I am in no hurry to die, I like the present world, but I don't want to have to make the decison about who is going to get blown away, me or the unrepetant-godless-murdering-sure-to-go-to-hell thug pointing a gun at my head.



Neither do I.  I hope I never find myself having to deal with this.  But I owe it to my family to come home at night.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 07:52:28
Quote
Neither do I.  I hope I never find myself having to deal with this.  But I owe it to my family to come home at night.

A problem I have with my "Don't shoot back, just die" philosophy is that I am afraid my wife and dog might miss me. In a perfect world I could count on the members of my congregation to practice looking after one another and bearing one another's burdens and checking to see that wife and dog had enough to eat, doing household repairs for them and just being there for encouragement. In real life, I don't know that that would happen. As Jesus was dying on the cross he took the time to see that his mother would be cared for so we know that the welfare of our families is important. We should be able to do like Paul (a single guy) and say "To die is gain" but how do we balance that Christian ideal with the realities of modern life where the community of God doesn't always act in the way it should?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Todd Grace on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 11:26:45
I still don't have an answer for why I shouldn't clean the rust off the antique shotgun I was given.

No manna to Snargles for gun ownership stance.
No manna to benfighter for being harsh about it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 12:17:25
I still don't have an answer for why I shouldn't clean the rust off the antique shotgun I was given.

No manna to Snargles for gun ownership stance.
No manna to benfighter for being harsh about it.


When one removes the "patina" from an antique it devalues it greatly.   ( I have collected them for 40 years)   Check the value FIRST if it is not of real $$$ value clean it up.  


Patina is a fancy word for dirt!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 14:23:51
I just want us all to live together in peace and harmony, buy each other a Coke, don't crowd the line at potlucks, walk 2 miles when we are asked to walk one, give away our 5 buckle arctics when asked for our coat, wipe the runny nose of the kid next to us, sing perfect 4 part harmony, give peace signs after the closing prayer, keep the bapistry water warm and be ready to leave this life for the next when someone comes after us with a gun.

I am in no hurry to die, I like the present world, but I don't want to have to make the decison about who is going to get blown away, me or the unrepetant-godless-murdering-sure-to-go-to-hell thug pointing a gun at my head.




I'm holding the world's smallest violin playing "My Heart Bleeds for You"

Would a group hug around a giant sequoia tree make you feel better?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 22:08:05
Quote
would a group hug around a giant sequoia tree make you feel better?

Yes, thank you, I think that would be a very Christlike thing to do.

benefiber, why do you get so stirred up when one person says that meekness and gentleness are Christian attributes?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Todd Grace on Wed Jun 30, 2010 - 23:01:35
I just want us all to live together in peace and harmony, buy each other a Coke, don't crowd the line at potlucks, walk 2 miles when we are asked to walk one, give away our 5 buckle arctics when asked for our coat, wipe the runny nose of the kid next to us, sing perfect 4 part harmony, give peace signs after the closing prayer, keep the bapistry water warm and be ready to leave this life for the next when someone comes after us with a gun.

I am in no hurry to die, I like the present world, but I don't want to have to make the decison about who is going to get blown away, me or the unrepetant-godless-murdering-sure-to-go-to-hell thug pointing a gun at my head.




I'm holding the world's smallest violin playing "My Heart Bleeds for You"

Would a group hug around a giant sequoia tree make you feel better?

After the group hug I have plans for a giant multi-level deck and an addtion which would look most excellent with redwood ceilings and with the man power already present I was wondering if......well never mind . I need a larger boat and I'd rather spend the gas money for my boat engine than transporting the tree home. Just an idea forget it.

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Thu Jul 01, 2010 - 20:42:03



I'm holding the world's smallest violin playing "My Heart Bleeds for You"

Would a group hug around a giant sequoia tree make you feel better?


We don't want ppl around the base of our big trees.......  Go find a pine tree or oak to sing & hug around.........

& you can take your violin & play a little tune........... ::juggle::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Thu Jul 01, 2010 - 21:41:05
There's poison ivy around the base of my tree. That is why I thought we could all go to benefiber's tree.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Thu Jul 01, 2010 - 21:49:13
Around here we could hug a juniper or sage brush.... Hugging a juniper is about the same as being shot with a shotgun!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Thu Jul 01, 2010 - 22:01:45
We have poison oak up in the foothills......  I think it is worse than the ivy..........

Shot???

Thorns??
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Thu Jul 01, 2010 - 23:45:49
Should Christians own thorn bushes?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Fri Jul 02, 2010 - 01:31:34
Should Christians own thorn bushes?

 Not if they can not keep them properly trimmed........lol
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Jul 02, 2010 - 06:59:22
Make sure they are registered with the proper authorities and don't try to conceal one in your pants.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Frank_N_Sense on Mon Jul 05, 2010 - 18:10:19
 rofl rofl rofl rofl
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Todd Grace on Mon Jul 05, 2010 - 20:54:22
That must be the hedge of protection people pray for. ::doh::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Mon Jul 05, 2010 - 21:32:16
 ::threestooges::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: arleigh on Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 02:25:19
OBEY THE HOLY SPIRIT, not public appproval.
 At one point Jesus instructed the disciples to buy 2 swords,just before His arrest.
 If you choose to walk in th tutelage and leading of the Holy spirit and you are given the directive to arm your self , the case may be for the sake of others more than your self , if you are secure in your relationship with the Lord. If you are insecure in the relationship work toward an obedient relationship. If the time comes to act with a weapon you are not acting on your own wisdom ,knowledge or understanding,but that of God.
 Believers Have passed through battles and the evidencce of holes passed through their clothing with out injury. I know God's loving protection through out my life, but I also know that there will come a time my life will be taken, but only in God's time.
  I have taught a lot of people how to handle a gun and shoot accurately and gun safety.
I prefir though that they listen ot my advise concerning being taught of God, and obey Him.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Fri Aug 20, 2010 - 09:07:42
I said before and will say again: My support of the 2nd Amendment and my ownership of two firearms has nothing to do with my belief in God as a lifelong Baptist.

Owning a gun is a constitutional right as a free American and not subject to religious doctrine of any kind.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: inhimwearefree12 on Sat Aug 21, 2010 - 04:40:10
I said before and will say again: My support of the 2nd Amendment and my ownership of two firearms has nothing to do with my belief in God as a lifelong Baptist.

Owning a gun is a constitutional right as a free American and not subject to religious doctrine of any kind.

However it doesn't matter if you believe in God....

Believing isn't going to get you anywhere. It's about  a relationship.

And Jesus has said those who live by the sword die by the sword.
He was beaten, whipped, spat upon, and still gave his life up. Because Jesus didn't have a pride problem, and He wasn't scared to die. He knew where He was going.

People's deaths have been the biggest witnesses in the world.
If it weren't for my grandfather dying, I am more than sure I would not be where I am today as a follower of Christ.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Boo on Sat Aug 21, 2010 - 05:42:50
I said before and will say again: My support of the 2nd Amendment and my ownership of two firearms has nothing to do with my belief in God as a lifelong Baptist.

Owning a gun is a constitutional right as a free American and not subject to religious doctrine of any kind.

However it doesn't matter if you believe in God....

Believing isn't going to get you anywhere. It's about  a relationship.

And Jesus has said those who live by the sword die by the sword.
He was beaten, whipped, spat upon, and still gave his life up. Because Jesus didn't have a pride problem, and He wasn't scared to die. He knew where He was going.

People's deaths have been the biggest witnesses in the world.
If it weren't for my grandfather dying, I am more than sure I would not be where I am today as a follower of Christ.

It is unfortunate that you accept only certain parts of the Bible and disregard all the others.

There is a lot more to know that just certain passages, and even those you do know need to be considered in context.

Owning a gun does not mean that you will be killed with one.  Jesus' death on the cross does not indicate that we are supposed to just die when some  killer wills it.  It is no more true than to expect some Christian woman to just lie down and be still when some rapist comes into her house.

That kind of thinking would eventually lead one to believe that all Police Department employment ads would read "Help Wanted, Christians need not apply.  Only unsaved sinners open for employment."

Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: kindlyangel on Sat Aug 21, 2010 - 09:48:39
I think that owning a gun is fine for women. I'm a woman and think it's different for women to own one. Men can often fend for themselves. Unless they are handicapped.

Praying is the best weapon for sure. But I feel the Almighty gave us a brain too.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Boo on Sun Aug 22, 2010 - 06:31:58
I think that owning a gun is fine for women. I'm a woman and think it's different for women to own one. Men can often fend for themselves. Unless they are handicapped.

Praying is the best weapon for sure. But I feel the Almighty gave us a brain too.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the effect of aging?  Is the idea of one young man being attacked by a group of men to be considered?  Women can carry guns, but not young men?

Defending ones self from being killed is a right of all of us.  It is not a gender issue.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 13:49:52
Christmas came early this year.

Just purchased a new Winchester Model 70 ($900) to go with my Remington Fieldmaster.


Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Debrah on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 16:08:28
wow, this is a hard one to answer, I prayed about it and this came to mind from the Gospel of Luke, "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either."

I did not go back over the 46 pages of replies so I am sure this was brought up, Jesus did not even suggest to defend yourself, but to even give the thief more!

The apostles and early Christian did not fight those who persecuted them, they died for Christ or ran to another city.

Now here is my conflict, when I was vacationing in Florida a few years back I believe God prepared me for a physical attack from a kidnapper.

I was watching a program on self-defense, then I got bored and went for a bike ride, a car pulled in front of me, a man jumped out, pushed me down, grabbed me from behind and started dragging me to the car, everything from the self defense show started going through my mind, but because of the way he was holding me I could not use the techniques.

He pushed me in the car, slapped me, and then a vision appeared before me of my 3 young boys, my adrenaline heightened, my hands finally free, I screamed in his face, 'you will not take me from my kids!' and used an attack from the show, shouting, then gouging the eyes.  He moaned grabbed his face, I ran, got the license, he went to jail.

So....I guess if you have a leading from the Spirit to protect yourself, or maybe others such as police or military, pray and ask God, for I do believe God was involved in all that happened that day.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: crowcamp on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 17:02:45
Christians (and anyone else) should own guns if they plan on shooting someone or some thing. Since I plan neither, I don't own a gun.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 18:00:09
Christians (and anyone else) should own guns if they plan on shooting someone or some thing. Since I plan neither, I don't own a gun.  ::smile::

I am with you, man.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 18:23:43
Christians (and anyone else) should own guns if they plan on shooting someone or some thing. Since I plan neither, I don't own a gun.  ::smile::

I am with you, man.

I plan on shooting some deer, or some rattlers.  Gonna get me some more guns soon.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Bon Voyage on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 18:24:25
Christians (and anyone else) should own knives if they plan on cutting someone or some thing.  Etc. Etc. Etc.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: crowcamp on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 19:21:48
Christians (and anyone else) should own knives if they plan on cutting someone or some thing.  Etc. Etc. Etc.
I own knives and plan on cutting a steak tonight.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Fri Sep 17, 2010 - 19:22:38
I got knives. Uses em to pick my teeth, clean my nails, cut up fish bait, whittle a stick, cut twine. I would have to be within 3 feet of you to cut you. With a gun or a Ninja star I could take down people across the street. With my super death ray I can cut a man in half from a mile away. After eating roasted garlic alfredo shrimp gumbo I can melt everybody in the room wit my breath.

          ::lightsabre::                      ::Darth Vader::                         ::stormtrooper::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sat Sep 18, 2010 - 00:59:18
this would fall into the relm of Christian freedom .

a christian  does not have the right  to bind the conscience of another christian and say you can not use a gun to protect your family.

or the christian with a gun say to one with out .. you must go get one to protect your family.






 
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: ex cathedra on Sat Sep 18, 2010 - 09:57:06
So for those who believe that Christians should own guns, would Christians be justified using a gun to protect themselves or their family under certain circumstances such as a robbery?

And would killing someone in extreme cases be justifiable?

in our christian freedom if we choose to own a gun
we can use the force neccesary to protect our lives and our family's lives from those who want to harm us .


we sinners live in a world full of sin we sin unbeleivers also sin .

2 Peter 3:13
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.


God tells us about our sinfilled world and our only savior from sin . calling policemen or even  using weapons to protect our selves and our family's .  Is not a lack of faith in God if any thing it shows we beleive God that this is not a place of righteousness .

and we understand why God has set up governments that must use force to protect their citizens

in heaven there will be no need for weapons .because their will no longer be sin.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Sat Sep 18, 2010 - 12:16:47
I would like to think .... for the cause of Christ i could  'turn the other cheek'

For the cause of harming my family i would gladly give the other guy a chance to turn his cheek.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Visionary on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 03:05:25
Luke 22:35,36 Jesus asked them, When I sent you WITHOUT purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything? Nothing, they answered. He said to them, But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
This instruction was not a license to kill. The life is in the blood. If anyone sheds the blood of a man by man shall his blood be shed.
The sword they were instructed to carry was for protection, a deterent. To wound an enemy attacking you preserves life, however we pray, deliver us from every evil attack.
As for a gun, the sword of today? It depends on the reason you would own one. For hunting? Sure! Its humane and a kindness to kill an animal swiftly for food.
When I was young a cat came into our yard and was killing chicks in nests in our trees. I trapped that cat in our wood pile and in my hand I held a pellet rifle capable of killing it. But I saw the cats fear then, and rather than shooting it between the eyes I shot it in the tail splitting the tip in two. The cat was just doing what cats do! That cat never returned. Its life was preserved. Even to this day I cannot bring myself to kill an animal except a fish or bird for food and I hope I never have to.
How could one who has received such a precious gift as Jesus' blood even consider shedding the blood of a man  to kill for any reason!!!  ::frown:: ::headscratch::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 09:22:13
Any reason?   protection of one's family... I thank God, John did not HAVE to kill any one to protect us and i thank God for Winchester.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 09:29:06
Any reason?   protection of one's family... I thank God, John did not HAVE to kill any one to protect us and i thank God for Winchester.



Right on! Couldn't have said it better!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: acmcccxlviii on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 09:59:23
I don't want to be accused of xenophobia, but this attitude could hardly be voiced anywhere but America.  "The right to bear arms" - instituted in or around 1776 in such a violent time and never repealed.  Someone quite recently said something like "If guns made a land safe, America would be the safest country on the planet."  Should Christians own guns?"  There is nothing in the New Testament which promotes anything but peace and passivity.  A question which I want to ask is "Would Jesus have used a gun (even for self-defence) if they existed in the first century?  I think in our heart of hearts, we know the answer.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Visionary on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 10:04:22
Yes. We as christians have the right to bare arms  ::clappingoverhead:: Them yanks got it backwards! I said, Do not Kill! It is one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS. If you want protection for your family? PRAY!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 10:21:05
acmcccxlviii


  Would Jesus own a gun..... I love when folks use such statments..... When was the last time you hung on a Cross? In my heart of hearts i know the answer.



Baring arms 250 years ago was to protect the people from the govering. The more control the government has over the peoples guns the more control they have over all. Just look around the USA.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Visionary on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 12:54:46
Perhaps its time to remind you all what happened to Jesus and what he said when the troops came out to arrest him.

All who draw the sword will die by the sword. Matthew 26:52-54

And, Do you not think I can call on my Father and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

And, But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?

Saints!!! You ARE SHEEP MARKED FOR SLAUGHTER!!! Do not resist an evil person even if it means your own death!!!

Are we trying to protect something that perishes???
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 14:34:25
Enough of the Drama Queen act. If you don't like guns then don't buy one and shut up!
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Debrah on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 15:31:47
benfighter, you should be ashamed if you are a brother in Christ saying to a fellow believer to "shut up"

Not sure that anyone had read my previous post, for no one responded to it, so here it is...

Now here is my conflict, when I was vacationing in Florida a few years back I believe God prepared me for a physical attack from a kidnapper.

I was watching a program on self-defense, then I got bored and went for a bike ride, a car pulled in front of me, a man jumped out, pushed me down, grabbed me from behind and started dragging me to the car, everything from the self defense show started going through my mind, but because of the way he was holding me I could not use the techniques.

He pushed me in the car, slapped me, and then a vision appeared before me of my 3 young boys, my adrenaline heightened, my hands finally free, I screamed in his face, 'you will not take me from my kids!' and used an attack from the show, shouting, then gouging the eyes.  He moaned grabbed his face, I ran, got the license, he went to jail.

So....I guess if you have a leading from the Spirit to protect yourself, or maybe a desire to protect our citizens such as police or military, pray and ask God, for I do believe God was involved in all that happened that day.

So this is not a black or white answerer, we each need to take it God and see what He wants, we should always try to stop and evil person with the power of Jesus, and the last resort would be a weapon of injury, or death.














Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Visionary on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 15:53:26
God bless Debrah... Concerning governing authorities who have rule over the kingdom of men. Romans 13 They bear the sword for your good. Its a deterent.

Further however this authority is misused! Pilate himself did all he could to release Jesus but because of public opinion washed his hands of it and gave him to the people. This misuse of his authority is found in 1 Corinthians 2:8

Therefore Jesus told Pilate, the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin. Pilate was not held guiltless. He gave in to public pressure AND HOW OFTEN DO WE SEE THAT INCREASING TODAY???

To beat off an attacker is not a sin Debrah. I am reminded of the prophet (Samson??)who was attacked by a lion and full of the Holy Spirit ripped it in pieces.

When your time comes its your time! But God delivers us from every evil attack and we continue to put our hope in him that he will continue to deliver us.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: The Great Baptizmo on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 15:55:11
Going to get some more guns soon!   ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 16:01:04
Debrah,

I read your post .... we had 'bad guys' kick down our frontdoor coming in the house with guns.

I fully understand your situation.  Glad to know your are with your kids....

I could not stand by and allow my family to be harmed.  The Scriptures are full of killing, war, liers, cheaters, just as in todays world.  Samson brought the house down.  Moses murdered.  

God gave me this life i will do all i can to preserve it, When He says thats 'it' NO man will stand in His way.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: benfighter on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 16:58:20
Debrah:

You sound like one of those self-proclaimed Christian women who has a problem with just about everything. I suspect the fact that most gun owners are men is part of the reason you are against firearm ownership.

If mostly women owned guns I'd bet good money that your attitude would be different.

At any rate, you don't get to preach to me or tell me to be ashamed nor do you have any say in whether or not I'm a believer.

I'm sorry you had to endure an attack like you described but that experience should be a lesson to you to consider purchasing a firearm and getting some training.



Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Debrah on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 17:41:56
not sure how you justify me having a problem with "everything", nor did I make the statement Americans should not own guns,  ::headscratch::

your a very rude man.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Eagle on Mon Sep 20, 2010 - 19:52:49
Benfighter i don't see how you got what you did from Debrah's post.  There is nothing preachy nor self proclaiming.     

a quote of Debrah's post ...

 
Quote
So this is not a black or white answerer, we each need to take it God and see what He wants, we should always try to stop and evil person with the power of Jesus, and the last resort would be a weapon of injury, or death.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sat Feb 15, 2014 - 12:24:35
Yes.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: fenton on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 14:12:30
yes
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Rella on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 17:36:32
Yes.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 17:53:10
NO!
Christians should be humble peaceful types who would rather give up their life than take the life of another person. When I die, I am going to heaven. If I kill a person who is committing a crime he is likely going to hell. I don't want that to happen.
 ::hippy::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 18:04:36
Yes it is much easier to shoot my food than to chase it down and stab it.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: avenger on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 18:11:51
NO!
Christians should be humble peaceful types who would rather give up their life than take the life of another person. When I die, I am going to heaven. If I kill a person who is committing a crime he is likely going to hell. I don't want that to happen.
 ::hippy::


Owning a firearm is not synonymous with killing people. 

You guys need to get a grip.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Snargles on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 18:19:42
I am fine with owning a gun for hunting and critter control on the farm, just not for self-defense.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 19:12:37
NO!
Christians should be humble peaceful types who would rather give up their life than take the life of another person. When I die, I am going to heaven. If I kill a person who is committing a crime he is likely going to hell. I don't want that to happen.
 ::hippy::


Owning a firearm is not synonymous with killing people. 

You guys need to get a grip.
 

There is no other reason to own a gun except to use it to shoot and maim when you 'need' or 'want' to.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: chosenone on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 19:20:22
I am fine with owning a gun for hunting and critter control on the farm, just not for self-defense.

I will never understand that desire to kill/maim/torture animals for so called 'sport' either. What is 'sporting' about causing unnecessary suffering and pain to any animal? God has given me a strong compassion for animals as well as people, and I cant understand where that 'desire' comes from that cares nothing for others pain and suffering. What right do we have to take the life of another whether human or animal?

There is no way that I would ever have any sort of gun or other firearm ever in my home or on my person. I hate them with a passion.    WE need to put more trust in God for protection than guns. I know a man personally who used to be a policeman. God supernaturally protected him and one colleague when they came across a large number of men were about to attack them, but then walked away. Many years later he met the ring leader who said that had it not been for the fact that there was so many police men they would have 'had them'. There were only the two of them but the gang had seen many more...........Gods protection. He realised at that point why the men had walked away(he had never understood it till then) and that it was Gods angels they had seen.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OldDad on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 19:28:56
So those who hunted animals in the Bible - Nimrod, Esau, David, for example - were wrong?  God even made clothing from animal skins for Adam and Eve... Do you suppose he had a method or painless skin removal that left the animal alive and naked?

 ::headscratch::
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: OldDad on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 19:30:08
Is it possible that my training and skill at using a firearm IS God's plan for my protection?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Jaime on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 19:58:58
I am fine with owning a gun for hunting and critter control on the farm, just not for self-defense.

I  more than fine with gun ownership for self defense. I ain't much for hunting. To defend one's self with a gun doesn't necessrily mean even pulling the trigger. Brandishing a weapon to a perpitrator can ne enough. Most people I know carry a pistol for self defense on long road trips. Roadside car trouble can turn tragic without something to repel the 2 legged vermin that intend harm to the vulnerable.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: tpm on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 20:01:04
I not only own a gun I carry it on my person almost everywhere I go.  I do not believe God has a problem with us defending ourselves.

For the those are wondering, no I've never drawn it in public, except at a shooting range.  That said, I was taught by a wise man (my father) that "Guns aren't toys; if you pull it out, you better be planning on using it."
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: avenger on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 20:14:40
NO!
Christians should be humble peaceful types who would rather give up their life than take the life of another person. When I die, I am going to heaven. If I kill a person who is committing a crime he is likely going to hell. I don't want that to happen.
 ::hippy::


Owning a firearm is not synonymous with killing people. 

You guys need to get a grip.
 

There is no other reason to own a gun except to use it to shoot and maim when you 'need' or 'want' to.

I own quite a few firearms, for the sole reason that they were my Dad's.  That makes you wrong... again.
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: Nevertheless on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 20:45:35
I am fine with owning a gun for hunting and critter control on the farm, just not for self-defense.

I will never understand that desire to kill/maim/torture animals for so called 'sport' either. What is 'sporting' about causing unnecessary suffering and pain to any animal? God has given me a strong compassion for animals as well as people, and I cant understand where that 'desire' comes from that cares nothing for others pain and suffering. What right do we have to take the life of another whether human or animal?


So I'll ask you again. You're a vegetarian now?
Title: Re: Should Christians Own Guns?
Post by: geronimo on Mon Feb 17, 2014 - 20:47:47
Quote
For the those are wondering, no I've never drawn it in public, except at a shooting range.  That said, I was taught by a wise man (my father) that "Guns aren't toys; if you pull it out, you better be planning on using it."

True, I'd think one of the quickest ways to get shot, is to pull a gun. That is saying all other avenues have been exhausted and it's time to end the conversation.

Quote
There is no other reason to own a gun except to use it to shoot and maim when you 'need' or 'want' to.

I came home from work one day and a bunch of wild dogs were trying to get to the calves and had already killed (just for the sport of it apparently) probably 100 chickens and just leaving them lay. Had run my wife and neighbor into the house and the police and game warden were here trying to stop the carnage. A gun was definitely needed in that situation, and for the dogs that got away, I had to shoot a few on occasion for a couple weeks. Not to mention a big red hog that thought this was his farm instead of mine. I was afraid he's eat one of the children. A friend got him while I was at work, but you couldn't get close to him without him charging.
 Self defense it not just against humans.  That stuff almost made me nervous.
 Blessings,