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Author Topic: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?  (Read 85005 times)

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Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1715 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 21:44:11 »
Yes, your point that radiographic methods depend upon models and assumptions is indeed valid.  That is true for nearly every method for measurement except for direct counting techniques.  But that does not invalidate the methods. I am not arguing with you.  I am simply showing why you are wrong.

You havent shown that I am wrong.

I looked at a data sheet for accuracy rating for an industry revenue grade meter.  At 25C, it was accurate to within 0.5%.  And verifiable across the entire range.

You simply cannot verify measurements of time for millions of years ago.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1715 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 21:44:11 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1716 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 22:19:07 »
With all due respect, most of that is little more than a statement of what you do not know.  You said, "If it is possible for a singularity to pop into existence in a space that does not exist, then it is also possible for a body to pop into existence into a space that does exist."  If you think about that for just a bit, you will see the error in it.  Popping into a space that doesn't exist??  What sort of silliness is that?   The big bang didn't pop into existence into a space that did not exist.  Space began to exist with the big bang, just as did time.  Energy, space and time together with the rules governing them was the big bang. That was the creation of the physical universe.  That is what God did.  That was God's creation.  A very remarkable accomplishment to say the least.

I think it is you who is arguing illogically.
A body cannot exist if there is no space to exist in.
So if there is a singularity that exists, then it also requires space to exist in.

So if you say that space itself started to exist with the big bang, then prior to the big bang space did not exist.
Hence, the singularity popped into existence in a space that did not exist.

To say that time began to exist with the big bang is an assumption. It is not empirical truth.
First of all science already admits that when speaking of a singularity, the present natural laws we know of break apart.
We simply do not know if there were or were not any laws of nature at work, all we do know is that the laws we know of today would not work in such a scenario.

Fact is that some law must have been in place. Ask yourself the question, if science says that the singularity was enormously dense, how could it be dense if nothing made it dense?
Or was it just dense by itself for no reason? Then if today nothing can be dense by itself for no reason, then you have a perfect example of how the laws of nature changed.

But back to your claim that time did not exist prior to the big bang.
Fact is, you simply do not know.

If it is possible for a body to pop into existence, then it is also possible for a body to pop out of existence.
Can you say with 100% certainty that there was not an existing universe in which were time and gravity, in which the singularity popped into existence?
And the moment the singularity expanded, the old universe popped out of existence or merged with the new one?

What we are talking about here is an oscillating universe and it is in fact a scientific model that is proposed and studied.
Many top scientists support such a theory and consider it valid, so since you find yourself guided by science on these matters...why would you invoke God?
Science give you a perfectly acceptable theory for the existence of our universe.

Point is that you are inconsistent.
You say that science provides the answers, but at some point even you reject science and invoke a Creator.
So what's the difference between you and I? Why can you reject science at some stage...and you tell me I cannot at my stage?

Let me ask you a question.
What if science provides us the perfect model, where the conservation of time and the laws of nature are explained...but the model is an eternal oscillating universe.
(I am not being absurd here: it is in fact the leading theory at the moment) Would you accept that scientific explanation?
And if you do not accept it...why?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1716 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 22:19:07 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1717 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 22:31:13 »
And I am just absolutely positive God is not deceptive.

So what you do is declare Genesis as allegorical because it does not tally with science.
That way you can conserve God as being not deceptive, and follow the scientific theories.

But then Genesis would have been deceptive to all generations who did not have science and who believed literally what Genesis says.
To them God was indeed deceptive.

Offline Alan

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1718 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 23:09:22 »
So what you do is declare Genesis as allegorical because it does not tally with science.
That way you can conserve God as being not deceptive, and follow the scientific theories.

But then Genesis would have been deceptive to all generations who did not have science and who believed literally what Genesis says.
To them God was indeed deceptive.


So what is the answer then? Is science completely wrong and and scientists purport their claims to fulfill an agenda?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1718 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 23:09:22 »

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1719 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 04:33:38 »
So what you do is declare Genesis as allegorical because it does not tally with science.

How does Genesis not tally with science?

I find the Word of God to be scientifically accurate.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1719 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 04:33:38 »



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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1720 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 05:27:32 »
So what you do is declare Genesis as allegorical because it does not tally with science.
That way you can conserve God as being not deceptive, and follow the scientific theories.

But then Genesis would have been deceptive to all generations who did not have science and who believed literally what Genesis says.
To them God was indeed deceptive
.
Forget about science for the moment.  Do you think it was a snake [a serpent] that spoke to Eve? Or do you think it was Satan speaking through a snake?  Or do you think that it was just Satan and there was not really any actual snake or serpent involved at all?  What do you think the first hearers or readers of Genesis thought who spoke to Eve?

Or how about the cherubim and that flaming sword guarding the tree of life; is that still there?  Or what was the tree of life?  Or what was the the tree of knowledge of good and evil?  Were those real honest to goodness trees?  Just curious about your thoughts on these?

And the curse placed upon the ground?  Genesis says that curse was thorns and thistles.  Now that doesn't sound all that onerous to me.  What do you think?  Was that the literal extent of the curse?  And for what its worth, where in all of this does it say anything about Adam's sin literally doing anything more than that to the ground, to the earth or to the universe?
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 05:53:46 by 4WD »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1721 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 05:32:43 »
Forget about science for the moment.  Do you truly believe that it was a snake [a serpent] that spoke to Eve? Or do you think it was Satan speaking through a snake?  Or do you think that it was just Satan and there was not really any snake or serpent actually involved at all?  What do you think the first hearers or readers of Genesis thought who spoke to Eve?

Of course it was a serpent that spoke to Eve, possessed by Satan.
Scripture records a speaking animal, and possession of animals by demons elsewhere, so it is well within a Biblical framework that a real snake spoke to Eve.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 05:39:27 by AVZ »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1722 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 05:41:33 »

So what is the answer then? Is science completely wrong and and scientists purport their claims to fulfill an agenda?

Yes, when it comes to evolution scientists are completely wrong and they are fulfilling an agenda.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1723 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 05:55:52 »
Of course it was a serpent that spoke to Eve, possessed by Satan.
Scripture records a speaking animal, and possession of animals by demons elsewhere, so it is well within a Biblical framework that a real snake spoke to Eve.
OK.  But the only record that I know of where an animal spoke, it was by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Tell me, do you think Satan still speaks through snakes?

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1724 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 07:07:50 »
OK.  But the only record that I know of where an animal spoke, it was by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Tell me, do you think Satan still speaks through snakes?

The Bible says he did, what does it matter what I think?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1725 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 07:08:45 »
  Tell me, do you think Satan still speaks through snakes?

Tell me do you know of any animal... not bird.... that has been reported to actually speak anything since the bible recordings of such? ::doh::

(I am not speaking of the 2 legged variety that Satan's demons possess that cause all sorts of terrors on living things)

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1726 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 07:12:33 »
OK.  But the only record that I know of where an animal spoke, it was by the power of the Holy Spirit.

So what are you trying to say? That it was actually the Holy Spirit who spoke through the snake and deceived Eve?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1727 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 07:16:21 »
So what are you trying to say? That it was actually the Holy Spirit who spoke through the snake and deceived Eve?
Why would you ask that? Where do you read that I said that?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1728 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 07:21:55 »
Tell me do you know of any animal... not bird.... that has been reported to actually speak anything since the bible recordings of such? ::doh::

(I am not speaking of the 2 legged variety that Satan's demons possess that cause all sorts of terrors on living things)

I personally don't think that any animal spoke literally to Eve.  I think the serpent in Genesis 2 is the same "ancient serpent" that John talked about in Revelation 12:9.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1729 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 08:31:14 »
Why would you ask that? Where do you read that I said that?

Well, you said that the only time an animal spoke in scripture besides the serpent in Genesis, the event was triggered by the Holy Spirit.
So I guess that since I knew you want to dismiss Satan as the instigator for the speaking serpent, the logical conclusion was that the Holy Spirit must have done it.

Apparently you have found another reason to dismiss the speaking serpent...declaring it allegorical.

And we have arrived at what I said before: Evolutionists don't like Genesis, so they declare it allegorical.
Any particular reason for that? Nope.
It just doesn't tally with what science says, and since something has to give way...Genesis it is.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1730 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 08:33:21 »
I personally don't think that any animal spoke literally to Eve.  I think the serpent in Genesis 2 is the same "ancient serpent" that John talked about in Revelation 12:9.

Yep, and John even tells us in Revelation 12:9 who the serpent is...

"The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."

So who do you think the serpent was in Genesis?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1731 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 09:19:27 »
Yep, and John even tells us in Revelation 12:9 who the serpent is...

"The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."

So who do you think the serpent was in Genesis?

I think the reference to the serpent in Genesis was metaphorically speaking of Satan.  I certainly do not think that Satan is a serpent.  But perhaps you do.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1732 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 10:49:54 »
I think the reference to the serpent in Genesis was metaphorically speaking of Satan.

And what is the compelling reason for you to think this?
Are you doubting the account given in Genesis is not possible, or not plausible?
Or does it somehow inconveniences you?

If the account is Genesis was a literal event, how would you propose God should have formulated the message differently so it would have been more clear?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1733 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 12:15:08 »
And what is the compelling reason for you to think this?
For the same reason I think the reference in Revelation 12:9 is metaphorical.
Quote
Are you doubting the account given in Genesis is not possible, or not plausible?
Or does it somehow inconveniences you?
I am not doubting the account given in Genesis.  I just think your intepretation of it is seriously flawed.
Quote
If the account is Genesis was a literal event, how would you propose God should have formulated the message differently so it would have been more clear?
Why engage in such a hypothetical?  What purpose would that serve?  But if you are interested in such things, try this hypothetical; given that the big bang is the actual method that God used to create the universe, and given the modern scientific knowledge used to explain it today, how might God have described that event to the ancient Hebrew?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1734 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 16:08:27 »
Salt is entering the sea much faster than it is escaping. The sea is not nearly salty enough for this to have been happening for billions of years. Even granting generous assumptions to evolutionists, the sea could not be more than 62 Ma years old—far younger than the billions of years believed by the evolutionists. Again, this indicates a maximum age, not the actual age.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1735 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 16:09:56 »
The Earth's magnetic field has been decaying so fast that it looks like it is less than 10,000 years old. Rapid reversals during the flood year and fluctuations shortly after would have caused the field energy to drop even faster.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1736 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 21:01:21 »
http://christiannews.net/2016/02/22/295-million-year-old-silk-recent-discovery-could-be-problematic-for-evolutionists/

295 Million Year Old Silk? Recent Discovery Could Be Problematic for Evolutionists

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1737 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 21:24:48 »
http://dinosaurtheory.com/big_dinosaur.html

Quote
2. The Paradox of Large Dinosaurs

Applying Science to Understanding Large Dinosaurs

When we go back in time to the Mesozoic era, the world of dinosaurs becomes a magical place. It is as if the laws of physics no longer apply so as to allow the dinosaurs to grow to gigantic size.

The bone fossils giving evidence of the previous existence of monstrous terrestrial vertebrates has confused the science community. In all likelihood, if dinosaur fossils had never been discovered the science community would have long ago 1) included and emphasized in science education the teaching of Galileo’s Square-Cube Law showing how size matters, and 2) concluded that the largest terrestrial animals of today are pushing the limit in regards to size.

The brightest scientists strongly feel that our reality is rational, and so they become intrigued if ever the evidence does not seem to make sense. Their curiosity as to why something seems out of place often leads them to making great discoveries. One might say that the first step on the road to a Nobel Prize in science begins with the statement “that’s odd”.

The exceptionally large size of the terrestrial animals of the Mesozoic era is not a subtle oddity to be dismissed but rather it is a glaring paradox that must be investigated. The essence of science - our belief that we exist in a rational reality - is at stake here.

Something must have been different about the world during the Mesozoic era so as to allow terrestrial animals to grow so much larger. This line of reasoning should make us wonder if there is other evidence indicating that during the Mesozoic era that the world was a dramatically different place. While we do not want to get too far ahead of ourselves the author will address the immediate curiosity by stating that yes there are other indicators that the world during the Mesozoic era was quite different from the present. To give one example, consider the global climate of Mesozoic era. For all practical purposes, everywhere on the Earth’s surface the temperature was the same. There was no ice at the poles nor was there ice at the top of the highest mountains. From the equator to the poles, and from the lowest dry valley to the highest mountain, there was no more than a few degrees difference in temperature. There are other sets of evidence as well. The gigantic dinosaurs and pterosaurs is just one of several sets of evidence giving testimony indicating that the Earth during the Mesozoic era was a very different world.

The focus of this chapter is to explain the physical limitations restricting the size of the terrestrial animals of today, thus clarifying why the gigantic animals of the Mesozoic era presents a scientific paradox. Below is a list of specific issues this chapter will address. The first three issues give the evidence clarifying the anomaly of the dinosaurs being so large. The last listed issue regarding the flight of pterosaurs will be taken up in the next chapter since the paradox of how the pterosaurs flew only becomes clear after a discussion of the science of flight.

There are four problem areas illustrating why the largest dinosaurs and pterosaurs present a paradox to science:

Inadequate bone strength to support the largest dinosaurs

Inadequate muscle strength to lift and move the largest dinosaurs

Unacceptable high blood pressure and stress on the heart of the tallest dinosaurs

Aerodynamics principles showing that the pterosaurs should not have flown

Before starting on the first issue listed above, there needs to be a discussion of what is the mass of various dinosaurs. It would be most helpful to have accurate mass estimates of the largest dinosaurs, the sauropods.


The above is of course not a problem for YE creationists. We understand that the world was a very different place before the flood, and that as the bible testifies, there were giants in those days. The proof is everywhere in the fossil records. The world was different, things lived much longer, and grew much larger. A truly scientific mind would not discount the very real possibility that there was a former world quite obviously very different from this one which was wiped out just as scripture declares. Nevertheless, scripture predicted a specific trait of the delusion which is evolutionary theory.

2 Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Offline Amo

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1738 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 21:33:52 »
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/all-those-new-dinosaurs-may-not-be-new-or-dinosaurs/

Quote
All Those New Dinosaurs May Not Be New — Or Dinosaurs

But while that rate of discovery might delight 8-year-olds, it’s not necessarily an accurate reflection of the ancient world. Eight years ago, Benton published two papers on the error rate in dinosaur species identification and found that 48.2 percent of “new dinosaurs” are eventually cast aside, deemed invalid for a variety of reasons (see the chart below). That’s far above the rate for living species, which is only 20 percent.............................

Benton told me the 48 percent error rate applies to dinosaurs named between 1850 and 1980. That’s because there’s been enough time since then for other researchers to cock an eyebrow, poke at the data and declare it wrong. Everything that’s been found in the last 36 years, in contrast, is more of a mystery. We think it has a lower error rate than the older research, but we don’t know for certain because there hasn’t been enough time to thoroughly vet it. Meanwhile, in that same period, the number of dinosaurs being named has exploded like an asteroid in the Yucatan.


Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1739 on: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 22:15:45 »
For the same reason I think the reference in Revelation 12:9 is metaphorical.I am not doubting the account given in Genesis.  I just think your intepretation of it is seriously flawed.Why engage in such a hypothetical?  What purpose would that serve?  But if you are interested in such things, try this hypothetical; given that the big bang is the actual method that God used to create the universe, and given the modern scientific knowledge used to explain it today, how might God have described that event to the ancient Hebrew?

So let's extrapolate the metaphor a bit, and I assume you have no objection to this.
There was no real serpent, its a metaphor for Satan
There was no real fruit, its a metaphor for the all present change to do something against God's will
There was no real tree, its a metaphor for the event that presents us the option to do something evil.
There was no real garden, its a metaphor for an environment in which God takes prime position
There was no real Satan, its a metaphor for our inner desire to do something evil
There was no real Eve and Adam, its a metaphor for the human race

Now all these come from the same small chapter in the Bible telling us about the Fall.
One player however I have not listed, but logically if all subjects in the chapter are metaphors, than the last one quite possibly is too.
There was no real God, its a metaphor for the good we people can do to ourselves or those around us.

My question is: If you indeed take one part of the same event and declare it a metaphor, then by what reason would you argue the other parts are not?
Where do you draw the line, and why do you draw the line where you draw it?


Finally your question how God could have described the big bang to the Hebrews? Very simple, just say what happened.

Genesis 1:1 (4WD style)
1: In the beginning God initiated the existence of heaven and earth
2: Now there was nothing and the Spirit of God looked at the nothing
3: And God said "Let there be a speck containing all the building blocks of the universe". And there was a speck. And God looked at the speck and saw it was good.
4: And God said "Let the speck explode and form the universe". And the speck exploded. And God looked at the explosion and saw it was a good explosion.
5: And God said "Let the universe bring forth all living things over time". And living things evolved from the universe.
6: And God rested from His work for a while
7: And God saw that the universe had brought forth a living being worthy of salvation
8: And God gave a soul to the worthy being and called them "humans"
9: And God saw that all that had happened was good, and He took a step back to let nature run it's course.

You think the ancient Hebrews could not have understood such a story?


So now my challenge to you. Lets assume the accounts in Genesis as they are written down are literal...what could God have done to make it more clear to you that it was literal?
Would you have preferred an additional verse to Genesis chapter 1 saying something like:
32: "The above really, really, really happened this way, literally"
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 28, 2017 - 22:19:13 by AVZ »

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1740 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 04:55:51 »
All that tells me is that you don't know what God actually said about His creation nor do you know anything about the scientific explanation of how the universe came to be.

You would have fit right in with the Catholic Church in the 1600 when they burned Giordano Bruno at the stake and confined Galileo Galilei to house arrest because, among other things, they disagreed with the church's interpretation of God's word which they claimed said without question that the earth was the center of the solar system.  That was 400 years ago; and yet such errors in interpretation of God's word continues.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 04:59:35 by 4WD »

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1741 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 05:41:17 »
Quote
But if you are interested in such things, try this hypothetical; given that the big bang is the actual method that God used to create the universe, and given the modern scientific knowledge used to explain it today, how might God have described that event to the ancient Hebrew?

The above reveals the true sentiment of evolutionary theory, and the hight of delusion regarding the same. The creature believing itself better qualified to explain the truth of its origin, than the creator. Thus ultimately making itself God. God couldn't find the right words or present the right evidence to teach the Hebrews the truth of humanities origins, so He had to make up a story for them until man himself evolved enough I suppose, to surpass God's ability and finally explain it to himself. Thus the superior knowledge of the modern prophets of God, the scientists. Oh, my bad, the superior knowledge of the new Gods, the evolutionary scientists who have now surpassed the abilities of there creator to understand and explain the truth of our origins. All bow to the new Gods.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1742 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:09:14 »
The above reveals the true sentiment of evolutionary theory, and the hight of delusion regarding the same. The creature believing itself better qualified to explain the truth of its origin, than the creator. Thus ultimately making itself God. God couldn't find the right words or present the right evidence to teach the Hebrews the truth of humanities origins, so He had to make up a story for them until man himself evolved enough I suppose, to surpass God's ability and finally explain it to himself. Thus the superior knowledge of the modern prophets of God, the scientists. Oh, my bad, the superior knowledge of the new Gods, the evolutionary scientists who have now surpassed the abilities of there creator to understand and explain the truth of our origins. All bow to the new Gods.

Jos 10:12  On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
Jos 10:13  So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

Hab 3:11  Sun and moon stood still in the heavens at the glint of your flying arrows, at the lightning of your flashing spear.

Psa 19:4  Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
Psa 19:5  It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
Psa 19:6  It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth.

1Ch 16:30  Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

Psa 93:1  The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and armed with strength; indeed, the world is established, firm and secure.

Psa 96:10  Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.


The above are but a few of the passages in God's word that clearly establish the fact that the earth sits stationery in its place with the sun moving across the earth.  If you refuse to take God at His word and foolishly think the earth rotates about is own axis and revolves around the sun, then you must be a Godless Science-worshiper fighting vigorously against the nonsense of a creative god, espousing the superior knowledge of the new Gods, the evolutionary astronomy scientists, who have now surpassed the abilities of their creator to understand and explain the truth of our origins solar system. All bow to the new Gods. Welcome to the club Amo.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:12:54 by 4WD »

Offline Amo

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1743 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:22:40 »
All that tells me is that you don't know what God actually said about His creation nor do you know anything about the scientific explanation of how the universe came to be.

You would have fit right in with the Catholic Church in the 1600 when they burned Giordano Bruno at the stake and confined Galileo Galilei to house arrest because, among other things, they disagreed with the church's interpretation of God's word which they claimed said without question that the earth was the center of the solar system.  That was 400 years ago; and yet such errors in interpretation of God's word continues.

A truly ignorant statement. First and foremost because without bible believing Christians who brought about the Reformation and laid down their lives by the millions for their right to believe as they wished, you still might not have the freedoms you have today. Second, there is no comparison between what is now observable fact, and the theory of evolution which has never been observed, is not being observed, and remains to be seen if true. Third, what the Catholic church believed and believes, is not at all what bible believers have and do believe. Fourth, Catholics themselves were among those who disproved their own churches erroneous beliefs, albeit many suffering under her abusive nature for doing so.

 Today, the Roman Catholic church is one of your staunchest supporters. The Pope himself acknowledging your theory as acceptable for all Catholics. Are you sure you should be bringing up the negative histories of such a strong supporter, and that you are so very different than they? Apparently you are no longer different concerning evolution.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/pope-francis-evolution-big-bang-theory-are-real-n235696

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1744 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:33:32 »
Are you sure you should be bringing up the negative histories of such a strong supporter, and that you are so very different than they?
I am just following your lead concerning the absolute adherence to the word of God. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, per se, but rather what does God's word tell us.  And as you have tried to show us, you either believe what it says or you don't.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:35:50 by 4WD »

Offline Amo

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1745 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:36:55 »
Jos 10:12  On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
Jos 10:13  So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

Hab 3:11  Sun and moon stood still in the heavens at the glint of your flying arrows, at the lightning of your flashing spear.

Psa 19:4  Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
Psa 19:5  It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
Psa 19:6  It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth.

1Ch 16:30  Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

Psa 93:1  The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and armed with strength; indeed, the world is established, firm and secure.

Psa 96:10  Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.


The above are but a few of the passages in God's word that clearly establish the fact that the earth sits stationery in its place with the sun moving across the earth.  If you refuse to take God at His word and foolishly think the earth rotates about is own axis and revolves around the sun, then you must be a Godless Science-worshiper fighting vigorously against the nonsense of a creative god, espousing the superior knowledge of the new Gods, the evolutionary astronomy scientists, who have now surpassed the abilities of their creator to understand and explain the truth of our origins solar system. All bow to the new Gods. Welcome to the club Amo.

Thank you, for further revealing your true disdain for God's word. Actually, the sun and the moon both move as well as this earth. Therefore, if in fact God did stop just this earth from moving, then it seems reasonable to assume the sun and moon would continue their movements. That is not what is recorded by those claiming to observe the same in scripture, who may or may not have understood that the earth revolves around the sun. In any case, it appeared to those observing, that the sun and moon stood still, which they would pretty much have to do, in order to look like they did even if this earth stood still. By the way, did you happen to observe the sunrise or sunset today?

https://www.universetoday.com/60174/does-the-sun-move/

Online 4WD

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1746 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:41:17 »
Actually, the sun and the moon both move as well as this earth.
And you know that how?  A strict reading of God's word says that you are wrong.

Offline Amo

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1747 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:47:57 »
I am just following your lead concerning the absolute adherence to the word of God. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, per se, but rather what does God's word tell us.  And as you have tried to show us, you either believe what it says or you don't.

Yes, one would be hard pressed in trying to prove the Catholic Church fully supported and believed all scripture. It seems you have such in common with them in this thing as well.

2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1748 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:51:54 »
Yes, one would be hard pressed in trying to prove the Catholic Church fully supported and believed all scripture. It seems you have such in common with them in this thing as well.

Are you really so dense?

Offline Amo

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1749 on: Fri Dec 29, 2017 - 06:54:28 »
And you know that how?  A strict reading of God's word says that you are wrong.

No it does not, but perhaps in the agenda driven mind. Your point in using these scriptures is not to arrive at truth, but to defend a position you have already taken. Few who use the word of God to their own ends, instead of being instructed as the child they truly are in relation to them, end up rightly dividing the same. If any at all.