GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?  (Read 72237 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1960 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 05:43:24 »
This is a figment of your own imagination just like the theory of evolution, not related to fact at all.
Perhaps the figment is yours, Amo.  The fact that you haven't changed your mind means absolutely nothing on the subject one way or the other.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1960 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 05:43:24 »

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1961 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 05:59:06 »
I suspect you probably have seen evidence other than speciation but either reject it or don't understand it.

We've all seen and heard a great deal of "evidence" presented from both sides of the issue. We all still need to determine what these proposed "evidences" actually represent, prove, or disprove for ourselves. As is obvious, there is not much agreement concerning "evidence".

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1961 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 05:59:06 »

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1962 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 05:59:56 »
http://kgov.com/evidence-against-the-big-bang

An interesting link apposing the Big Bang theory.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1963 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 06:32:48 »
We've all seen and heard a great deal of "evidence" presented from both sides of the issue. We all still need to determine what these proposed "evidences" actually represent, prove, or disprove for ourselves. As is obvious, there is not much agreement concerning "evidence".
And??  Unless you are expert in the field you really can't do what you propose.  You can only decide which set of experts you prefer to follow.  And that is based upon something other that the existing evidence.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1963 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 06:32:48 »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1964 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 07:00:30 »
http://kgov.com/evidence-against-the-big-bang

An interesting link apposing the Big Bang theory.
Here again, unless you are an expert in the field, you really have no credible means of deciding the truth of this video or any other video. 

It is, for example, interesting that the article lists Fred Hoyle as an opponent of the big bang.  But his opposition does nothing to bolster the Young Earth Creationist view of things.  In fact the primary reason that Hoyle opposed the theory was because it implied a beginning for the universe and that, Hoyle feared, was an argument for God.  He maintained for most of his career that the universe had no beginning.  Toward the end of his career he did actually come to accept the concept of the big bang or to at least accept the concept of a beginning for the physical universe as we now know it.

I find it interesting that RSR has the following in its opening page:

Welcome to Real Science Radio: Co-hosts Bob Enyart and Fred Williams talk about science to debunk evolution and to show the evidence for the creator God including from biology, genetics, geology, history, paleontology, archaeology, astronomy, philosophy, cosmology, math, and physics.

The inherent bias is demonstrated immediately by the assumption that the creator God did not and could not create evolution.  That of course places extreme limitations upon God's creative ability.  It is, so far as I am concerned, a slap in the face of God Himself.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 07:02:38 by 4WD »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1964 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 07:00:30 »



Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1965 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 08:59:11 »
And??  Unless you are expert in the field you really can't do what you propose.  You can only decide which set of experts you prefer to follow.  And that is based upon something other that the existing evidence.

So the experts say, so you believe. Of course there is the little problem of so many "experts" disagreeing among themselves. Shall we take a tour of the history of supposed experts, and how many of them and how often they were wrong. Once again, it comes back down to believing either the word of God is expert truth and testimony, or the observations of fallen humanity as the same. We place our faith in whom we trust.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1966 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 09:06:26 »
Here again, unless you are an expert in the field, you really have no credible means of deciding the truth of this video or any other video. 

It is, for example, interesting that the article lists Fred Hoyle as an opponent of the big bang.  But his opposition does nothing to bolster the Young Earth Creationist view of things.  In fact the primary reason that Hoyle opposed the theory was because it implied a beginning for the universe and that, Hoyle feared, was an argument for God.  He maintained for most of his career that the universe had no beginning.  Toward the end of his career he did actually come to accept the concept of the big bang or to at least accept the concept of a beginning for the physical universe as we now know it.

I find it interesting that RSR has the following in its opening page:

Welcome to Real Science Radio: Co-hosts Bob Enyart and Fred Williams talk about science to debunk evolution and to show the evidence for the creator God including from biology, genetics, geology, history, paleontology, archaeology, astronomy, philosophy, cosmology, math, and physics.

The inherent bias is demonstrated immediately by the assumption that the creator God did not and could not create evolution.  That of course places extreme limitations upon God's creative ability.  It is, so far as I am concerned, a slap in the face of God Himself.

Thank you for revealing the bias of a supposed expert, and the fact that he changed his mind. You misdirect the basics of the actual debate. It is not about what God could or could not do, it is about whether the bible is a accurate historical account of creation or not. Is the biblical account of God's creation true, or your account of creation true? This is the question for most biblical creationists, not what God could or could not do, rather is the bible accurate or not.

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1967 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 13:52:36 »
Here again, unless you are an expert in the field, you really have no credible means of deciding the truth of this video or any other video. 


Oh? So those who disagree are dumb? That IS what you are saying.


The inherent bias is demonstrated immediately by the assumption that the creator God did not and could not create evolution.  That of course places extreme limitations upon God's creative ability.  It is, so far as I am concerned, a slap in the face of God Himself.

what a ridiculous statement.

Of COURSE God could of used evolution.

But, the fact is that He DIDN'T.

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1968 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 13:56:22 »
I suspect you probably have seen evidence other than speciation but either reject it or don't understand it.

LOL. So because i disagree with something, it means i dont understand it?

Again, i have not seen ANY evidence.Maybe YOU can show me ONE?

Let me guess, you won't.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1969 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 16:09:06 »
what a ridiculous statement.

Of COURSE God could of used evolution.

But, the fact is that He DIDN'T.

But the fact is that He DID.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1970 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 16:14:58 »
Thank you for revealing the bias of a supposed expert, and the fact that he changed his mind. You misdirect the basics of the actual debate. It is not about what God could or could not do, it is about whether the bible is a accurate historical account of creation or not. Is the biblical account of God's creation true, or your account of creation true? This is the question for most biblical creationists, not what God could or could not do, rather is the bible accurate or not.
Contrary to your question, of course the biblical account is true.  The question is really whether the account is a literal account.  Is Revelation an accurate account of the end times? Of course it is.  Is it a 100% literal account or a metaphoric account?  I will opt for the latter.   Is the Genesis account 100% literal or does it, much like Revelation, carry significant metaphoric content?  I will opt for the latter.  Now if you can prove that is not the case, I will consider it.  But I am not holding my breath that you can do that.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 16:20:27 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1971 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 16:18:36 »
So the experts say, so you believe. Of course there is the little problem of so many "experts" disagreeing among themselves. Shall we take a tour of the history of supposed experts, and how many of them and how often they were wrong. Once again, it comes back down to believing either the word of God is expert truth and testimony, or the observations of fallen humanity as the same. We place our faith in whom we trust.
I have faith in God and trust in His word.  I have not much faith in you and little trust in your interpretation of God's word.

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1972 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 19:40:04 »
But the fact is that He DID.

prove it.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • Manna: 254
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1973 on: Sat Mar 03, 2018 - 21:25:29 »

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1974 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 03:15:28 »

Prove that He didn't  ::juggle::

Come on, dont be a coward.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1975 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 05:19:31 »
prove it.
God's general revelation says that He did.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • Manna: 254
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1976 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 08:11:08 »

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1977 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 09:03:23 »
I have faith in God and trust in His word.  I have not much faith in you and little trust in your interpretation of God's word.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,............................
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Very well then, please explain and demonstrate your faith in God's words in the above scriptures accordingly, if you don't mind. What is your interpretation, and why does it not mean just what it says? Thank you.


Offline The Barbarian

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1655
  • Manna: 115
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1978 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 09:32:11 »
Quote
No one has seen the evolution you espouse

I showed you that evolution is a change in allele frequency in a population over time.  And such changes are indeed directly observed.   I also showed you abundant evidence for common descent, all of which is testable, and has been confirmed.  Would you like to see it again?

Quote
It is all speculation about the unobservable past,

Sorry, the postmodernist notion that we can't learn about anything we didn't witness, is a foolish error.  Would you like to learn why?

Quote
Creationists have no problem with species remaining unchanged over time if or when they have no need to do so.

But why it happens or doesn't happen is a deep mystery to creationists.  Darwin showed why it happens or doesn't happen, depending on the circumstances.

Quote
You and the other self proclaimed experts of evolution are not God or gods.

Nor are you or other creationists God or gods.   We merely know more than you do about the way He did his creation.   Nothing is so just because you said it.   The difference is, we have evidence to show what happened, and you only have a modern revision of the Bible.

Quote
You have proved nothing

Science, as you know, proves nothing.  It merely  gathers enough evidence to make doubt foolish.

Quote
my mind is not changed on the matter

Wouldn't expect it to be.  But there are others who are considering the issue, and our discussion will help them decide.

Quote
and I do not accordingly know better now by way of any change in my mind simply because you said so.

You should always look to the evidence, not authority.
 

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1979 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 11:52:30 »
Very well then, please explain and demonstrate your faith in God's words in the above scriptures accordingly, if you don't mind. What is your interpretation, and why does it not mean just what it says? Thank you.
Consider the following to see what God's general revelation says about a day:

                                     http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html?s=srhot

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1980 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 12:41:09 »
Consider the following to see what God's general revelation says about a day:

                                     http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html?s=srhot


THE FIRST DAY, THE SECOND DAY. etc.

24 hour days

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1981 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 12:46:35 »

Excuse me?

I asked you to prove it.

You could not answer. Instead you tried to divert by asking ME a question and expecting ME to do something YOU were to scared to do, answer a simple question.

I am done with you and your silly games, my friends.

You are not interested in a dialog, you prefer monologues. Making statements. Not backing anything help.

I am done.

God bless.

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1982 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 12:50:21 »
God's general revelation says that He did.

in what way?

Surely this has nothing to do with the word "day", does it?

PS: Thank you for the reply. I enjoy having nice, polite discussions. I appreciate it.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1983 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 14:06:40 »
in what way?

Surely this has nothing to do with the word "day", does it?
If you had read the article you wouldn't be asking either of those two questions.  You would have known the answer to both.  Oh well, you can lead a horse to water, but.......

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • Manna: 254
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1984 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 16:42:23 »
I asked you to prove it.

You could not answer. Instead you tried to divert by asking ME a question and expecting ME to do something YOU were to scared to do, answer a simple question.

I am done with you and your silly games, my friends.

You are not interested in a dialog, you prefer monologues. Making statements. Not backing anything help.

I am done.

God bless.


There was a very simple reason for my reply; we have been over this topic and given you a plethora of accepted evidence, you ignore these replies and continue to ask for "proof". You're just not good at discussions unless YOU see what you want to see.

Perhaps "being done" is in your best interest.

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1985 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 20:29:40 »

There was a very simple reason for my reply; we have been over this topic and given you a plethora of accepted evidence, you ignore these replies and continue to ask for "proof". You're just not good at discussions unless YOU see what you want to see.

Perhaps "being done" is in your best interest.

No, i am done with YOU, not with the topic.

If anyone would like to give me one piece of evidence, i am happy to discuss it.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1986 on: Sun Mar 04, 2018 - 20:54:32 »
Consider the following to see what God's general revelation says about a day:

                                     http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html?s=srhot


I don't have to consider anything. The context, and issue of God's seventh day Sabbath all through scripture, and history itself all point irrefutably to a 24 hour day, from evening to evening. This single day from evening to evening was an issue which God brought up to Israel many times over to be observed from evening to evening on the seventh literal day. There is no question concerning this for any exercising even the very least bit of common sense. As usual your modification of scripture to suit your own evolutionary faith, creates contradictions and havoc with many other scriptural accounts and testimony.

How do you explain all the scriptural testimony, not to mention history which clearly reveals the setting up of this literal day as God's Sabbath, observed as such by the Jews throughout their entire history, and all the problems they had concerning it, when they would not observe the literal day as God most obviously intended? Please do expound.



Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1987 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 04:51:12 »
I don't have to consider anything.
And there dear friends is the entire crux of the matter.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • Manna: 254
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1988 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 05:58:04 »
And there dear friends is the entire crux of the matter.


Exactly, the above two posters would rather bury their heads in the sand than to consider even the tiniest shred of evidence that disrupts their personal narrative.

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1989 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 21:09:50 »
I'm not the one in lala land, completely destroying context, the absolute fact that the seventh day Sabbath is one day from evening to evening as continually referred to in scripture by our Lord Jesus Christ, all the prophets, and apostles, and demonstrated by the Jews observance of the same throughout their history. You want to set all of that aside and say that the days referred to in the fourth commandment are not literal days, so you can claim scripture supports your faith in evolution as apposed to creation as scripture plainly testifies. Then in your twisted minds, you reason that we are the ones who won't take all things into consideration. We are the ones sticking our heads in the sand as apposed to your self proclaimed enlightenment and superior spiritual knowledge. Baloney!

Offline The Barbarian

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1655
  • Manna: 115
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1990 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 23:52:25 »
Quote
I'm not the one in lala land, completely destroying context, the absolute fact that the seventh day Sabbath is one day from evening to evening

I realize you want to believe it.  But the context of Genesis shows that these are not literal days.

Quote
as continually referred to in scripture by our Lord Jesus Christ,

He never said they were literal days. 

 

KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1991 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 02:55:55 »
So God wants the Jews to work the land for 6 "long periods of time" and rest for 1 "long period of time" ?

Sorry, that does not wash.

THE first day
THE second day
THE third day

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7457
  • Manna: 227
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1992 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 05:20:04 »
I'm not the one in lala land, completely destroying context, the absolute fact that the seventh day Sabbath is one day from evening to evening as continually referred to in scripture by our Lord Jesus Christ, all the prophets, and apostles, and demonstrated by the Jews observance of the same throughout their history. You want to set all of that aside and say that the days referred to in the fourth commandment are not literal days, so you can claim scripture supports your faith in evolution as apposed to creation as scripture plainly testifies. Then in your twisted minds, you reason that we are the ones who won't take all things into consideration. We are the ones sticking our heads in the sand as apposed to your self proclaimed enlightenment and superior spiritual knowledge. Baloney!
If you wish to take an absolutely literal approach, then there are a tremendous number of questions that you really need to answer.  I will start with one.  What is the light that is referred to on the first day, when neither the sun, the moon nor the stars appear until the fourth day?  And a second question closely connected is what does evening and morning mean on days one through three since, again, the sun, the moon and the stars do not appear until the fourth day.


KiwiChristian

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1994 on: Fri Mar 09, 2018 - 00:59:49 »
What is the light that is referred to on the first day, when neither the sun, the moon nor the stars appear until the fourth day? 

God is light. Jesus is the light of the world.