Author Topic: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?  (Read 96229 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2127
  • Manna: 119
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3080 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 01:09:26 »
If there were no theological consequences for believing in either of the theories, there would indeed be no issue.
The problem is however that the theological impact is very substantial.

The YE theory points to a Designer. In fact, YE creationism can only work if there is a God involved.
On the contrary, Darwinian Evolution is a theory based on a purely materialistic basis for the existence of the universe.
The summum of this theory is to exclude the need for a Creator altogether.


You seem to be arguing that "Darwinian" Evolution is the only kind, even when people in this discussion have posited others.  Even YECs now acknowledge "macro" as well as "micro" evolution; but they disingenuously obfuscate by renaming it.

Your refusal to accept these facts suggests you are either an incompetent or dishonest interlocutor.

As for theological impacts --

Yes, there are potential pitfalls all around.

If you read any of the Glenn Morton article Barbarian linked up in Reply #3048, you saw some.  People were taught YEC understandings of geology, hydrology, etc., and then went to work in the "real world" (usually not academia), and found that the actual things they encountered were not at all compatible with YEC "science."  The theological impact was that "the Bible" did not match what they were actually encountering in real life, so "the Bible" can't be trusted.  This nearly caused several to abandon the faith.

OTOH, if the "evolution (whether or not it be 'theistic') from ape-like prohominids" idea is pressed far enough, it gets to a point where there was not a real Adam and Eve, and so we have to question whether the Gen 1-3 accounts of the First Pair and the original "Creation Order" have any teaching value, whether there really was a "Fall" and need for a Savior, whether Jesus as the "Last Adam" has any meaning at all.

Quote
Now some of the evolutionists here would claim they can believe in evolution AND a creator God.
However, believing in a creator God is not part of the evolution theory. The theory of evolution seeks only for a materialistic explanation of the universe.


That's only so in your narrow view which refuses to accept that there are different versions of "evolution."  I only had, like, one or two courses in Philosophy, about 38 years or so ago.  I think maybe that's an "excluded middle" fallacy.

Quote
So back to your question.
Can both be true? Obviously it can not.

You would be better off asking if there is any scientific proof for a YE theory.
See, if the YE theory is a brainless as the evolutionists here claim, then it would not have any basis and there would be no evidence whatsoever for its validity.
Yet evidence does exist!


MAYBE in some fields; I really don't know, and I no longer trust YEC "scientists" themselves to be honest about the matter.  In any case, I refer you again to the Morton article.

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3081 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 03:46:55 »
You seem to be arguing that "Darwinian" Evolution is the only kind, even when people in this discussion have posited others.  Even YECs now acknowledge "macro" as well as "micro" evolution; but they disingenuously obfuscate by renaming it.

Your refusal to accept these facts suggests you are either an incompetent or dishonest interlocutor.

As for theological impacts --

Yes, there are potential pitfalls all around.

If you read any of the Glenn Morton article Barbarian linked up in Reply #3048, you saw some.  People were taught YEC understandings of geology, hydrology, etc., and then went to work in the "real world" (usually not academia), and found that the actual things they encountered were not at all compatible with YEC "science."  The theological impact was that "the Bible" did not match what they were actually encountering in real life, so "the Bible" can't be trusted.  This nearly caused several to abandon the faith.

OTOH, if the "evolution (whether or not it be 'theistic') from ape-like prohominids" idea is pressed far enough, it gets to a point where there was not a real Adam and Eve, and so we have to question whether the Gen 1-3 accounts of the First Pair and the original "Creation Order" have any teaching value, whether there really was a "Fall" and need for a Savior, whether Jesus as the "Last Adam" has any meaning at all.

That's only so in your narrow view which refuses to accept that there are different versions of "evolution."  I only had, like, one or two courses in Philosophy, about 38 years or so ago.  I think maybe that's an "excluded middle" fallacy.

MAYBE in some fields; I really don't know, and I no longer trust YEC "scientists" themselves to be honest about the matter.  In any case, I refer you again to the Morton article.


I am not sure what you mean with "another kind" of evolution.
There are only two options: Creation or Evolution

Even if you claim that a Creator used evolution to create, you still make the claim that a Creator used purely materialistic means to bring His creation about.
In scientific terms that is called Intelligent Design.

Science, by its own admission, limits itself to the natural.
So an evolutionist who claims interference by an intelligence outside the realm of the natural, does not make a scientific statement.
As far as science is concerned, it is an invalid statement.

There is only 1 kind of evolution and that is a 100% materialistic origin of the universe.

You say that YEC's acknowledge macro evolution.
Can you perhaps point me to some evidence of that?
And since you claim the YEC's obfuscate the definition of "macroevolution" maybe you can post the definition you think is the only proper definition which we should use in the continuation of this discussion.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3082 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 07:22:06 »
Quote
You said "causes are not always predictable". Is that a law then or what?
Quote
Just a fact.
Quote
Have you taken into account what you say here in dealing with the past?
Yep.

That too then is a fact in the past. And with that, it is impossible too, to tell what happened in the past, not knowing the actual environment then. So that, scientific calculations regarding the past are based on assumptions and speculations.

Quote
May I ask, as a Christian, do you believe that Satan have power?
Quote
If you are a Christian, he has no power over you that you do not give to him willingly.
Quote
That is not the question sir. Let me ask that again. Do you believe that Satan have supernatural power?
If you'd read scripture, you'd notice that it's the only kind he has, subject to God's willingness to grant him anything else.
If that were as you say with Satan, then man is subject to God's willingness to grant him anything else. You are putting man and Satan then as equals. But, as it is, that is not true. For Satan is a spirit creature that has abilities greater than man. He has abilities beyond the natural abilities of man. In other words he has supernatural powers.

Quote
Had it ever occurred to you that he is trying to deceive the world today,
Quote
No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.
Quote
So, you believe.
For example, telling YE creationists that one must be YE to be saved?   Or maybe just telling them that people who don't accept that modern doctrine, aren't going to be as well off as those who do.

Well, take your issue with YE to them, not to me.

The deception may well be, telling us to believe in the work of scientists, believing, unbelieving, and atheist scientists included, their theories about HOW the heavens and the earth, the living creatures, and man came into being. The deception today is similar to that in the beginning. 

Quote
as he had deceived Eve about the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
As you see, he deceived her by telling part of the truth.   It's his nature to do that.  No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.
As I said, the deception today is similar to that in the beginning. Satan deceives those who believe in God, like Eve and Adam then. So, it is not against non-believers that he really works on to deceive, but the believers, that he would have them believe in him instead and fight God. 

Quote
Remember what the serpent said to Eve? He said "God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Yep.  Satan often uses a part of the truth to deceive.
Good to know that you are aware of that.

Quote
And what happened to Eve?
Quote
God says:
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened:
Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil:

As you now realize, Satan used part of the truth to deceive.
Quote
Here's what happened to Eve, before that sir.

Gen.3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

Quote
Today people's eyes are pleased of all the things that is the fruit of science and see it desirable to make one wise.

Proverbs 18:15 An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

The fruit of YE creationism no doubt appeals to others, who think it's desirable to make them wise.   Could it be that others, like Eve, were deceived, they took of its fruit and ate. And still others, like Adam, they heed the voice of others, that they also ate of the fruit?

As I said, take your issue with YE to them, not to me. I can't speak for them sir.
Nice quote of scriptures there. But it does not have anything to do with our discussion of deception and the point I make in my post.

Quote
In the beginning, the deception was about knowledge.
Indeed.   It was knowledge that caused the fall.   It was when their eyes were opened, they knew good and evil and became like God.   Do you understand why that was initially a curse and later a blessing?

YE creationism is just the latest way the serpent seeks to undermine God.    It seems, the old serpent, uses the same deception, knowledge.

As I said, the deception today is similar to that in the beginning. And Satan uses the same tactic, the same temptation, attacking the man, where he is weak.
Quote
Truly, as scriptures says, knowledge puffs up the man.

Proverbs 18:15 An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

Not what you said it was.

Yes, for what I said is what scriptures says about knowledge. That it puffs up the man. He puffs him up to the point of losing sight of the truth, of God. He is brought to look on his works and achievements, how great they are, even leading him to preach and teach it as though it is the truth, working systematically to instill such in the unbelieving young, and working tirelessly and passionately to persuade the children of God to believe him. Such pride he have, and such arrogance.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3083 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 07:38:37 »
That was a yes.  If you want an explanation for that yes, go back to that reply that you seem to think was dodging the question.


Hmm, you've been here less than a week and are already indulged in several disagreements. Which of those people are indulging in the "lie" that will place their salvation in jeopardy?


Seems it's only you that know the true path, some agree with you here but disagree with you in other theological concerns, us and them are all doomed according to your views.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3083 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 07:38:37 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3084 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 07:51:38 »
Things are continuously changing all around us as nature predicts, but consider this; maybe, just maybe we reside in the era that scripture points to regarding the return of our Lord. It is in God's hands.


Maybe....yes and no.

That's really how it is with the world and the world of science.

Considering what has been said, it seems that to the Christian scientist who take the creation of God as by evolution, the man that scriptures said God created wasn't really the Adam scriptures says after all. For since the time when mankind came to being, Adam being the first according to scriptures, man continues to evolve to this day. Ask as to what man will evolve to be, the scientist could hardly guess. What they will say is that, evolution of man is on-going. That this is what the evidence shows. That this is a fact, and therefore is true, as this is scientifically verifiable and is directly observed. That if one will not accept such, is a fool and exhibits to having so little knowledge to none.

Anyway, Alan, on another concern I posted in Reply# 3029, can you respond to it sir? Here's the link:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/general-discussion-forum/the-empty-headed-myth-of-evolution/msg1055125839/#msg1055125839

Thank you.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3084 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 07:51:38 »



Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3085 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 07:55:20 »
There are only two options: Creation or Evolution


Nope, there is creation via evolution. It was God that set the universe in motion creating all life and matter.

Offline LastCall

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3086 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 08:31:41 »
Even attempting to make such an argument pitting the teaching of evolution affection abortion rates is beyond retarded.

The original point I had made was here:


As long as evolution theory is taught in schools, there are no consequence for right & wrong, and bullying and abortion will be the norm as naturally selecting the weak for extinction as it is a dog eat dog world and this life is all that you have.

Then Alan said this:


That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. The schools teach evolution because it's a fact, not because they have some agenda of natural selection, thanks for your unsupported and obtuse opinion though and thank heavens it is completely meaningless.  ::aloneinclearlogic::

Then I said;
I did not say that the schools had an agenda.  I was only pointing to the effect for which the evolution theory being taught in our schools is the cause.

Then Barbarian changed the subject to my saying the evolution theory is the cause for increase in violence and abortion in society when that was not my original point, and I fell for it.

I notice that the decades-long decline in violent crime coincides with the teaching of evolution in public schools.   I notice also that the increase in pro-life opinion occurred at the same time.   The effect, if there is one, is toward less violence and fewer abortions.

Clearly you are not comprehending what's actually going on as you are not comprehending what a scientific theory actualy is.   The observation of macroevolution is one of the many confirmed predictions of evolutionary theory.    Theories, as you now realize are stronger than laws.

Anyway, I got suckered into opposing him when he had changed the subject from what I was saying when all I have seen in the news lately is a rise in violence;  which I am sure violent riots is not being counted in his graph for why I do not believe it is without bias.  Plus, it is invalid to use such graphs when restrictions for abortions caused the decline; 

So he is suckering everybody into believing those graphs when those graphs do not prove that evolution theory taight in school caused the decline of violent crimes and abortion. if you read his quote carefully above.

So I wasn't originally saying that evolution theory taught in schools cause the increase of violent crimes & abortion, and since that is a stupid argument, so is trying to prove the opposite.  None of those graphs proves that evolution theory in schools caused the decline in violent crimes and abortion, now does it?

The reason I said originally is what naturally selection means in the evolution theory as being the source for bullying and abortion in schools as selecting the weak and the vulnerable.  They would be hard pressed to prove that is not one of the reasons for that mentality for bullying and abortion in our society.

Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3087 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 08:33:37 »

There are only two options: Creation or Evolution


Wrong. But I am not going to waste time restating what I have stated previously as it will only be ignored.




Nope, there is creation via evolution. It was God that set the universe in motion creating all life and matter.

I should reply to this with the same reply I gave AVZ but it just begs for a question to be answered.

When and at what point, during the evolution of man, that you are bent on believing, did God the Creator give man as we know him a soul?

I will forgo any discussion of our being spirits, living in a body , and having a soul becauseI would guess you do not subscribe to the belief of the triune nature of man. But you , Avz, and even I all have souls... IF you actually believe the Holy Bible, that confirms this you cannot deny it.

Do you think it was 200 million years ago? 30,000 years ago? or maybe not until we die awaiting our judgements?  When?

And once you answer that for us, just think about this one.... I will not ask for an answer.

Why do you think God gave man a soul? For what purpose?

When in the entirelty of his eternity past creations why do you and I and Avz, and Barbarian, and Michael 2012, and NorrinRadd, and Last Call, and RB, and mommydi, and TC and Notreligus and everyone else posting in this thread and everyone posting on GC. And even Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump...... WHY were we all given souls.... and when and for what purpose..... when there is no record of anything else ever having one.... Certainly not of those we allegedly morphed from.....

JUST think about this one. It should never be out of thought in any evolutionists mind.

Offline LastCall

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3088 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 08:59:45 »
Ok, scatter-gun post...

-- I can't locate the post(s), but some YE in the thread remarked about non-YEs considering them worthy of ridicule for being "uneducated."  It's not that so much as the fact that some of you seem PROUD of being uneducated, as if ignorance were a virtue.  Such people do deserve scorn, and more.

-- KJV-only people are nuts.

And yet not all Bibles say the same thing.  You try correcting any one in error by one Bible version and they will go to another.  Same goes for those in error using the KJV, but with the KJV, I can show them their error for which then those cultist that claim they only use the KJV, go to another Bible version that supports their point of view.  So my point of reference is to stick to the KJV since modern Bibles are changing the message in His words that we are supposed to have in discerning good & evil by it.  I am not representing everything KJVOnlyism supposedly stands for, I am saying why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words to discern good and evil by it.  Those that are astray need to stick to the KJV if they are ever going to have hope of finding the truth in His words with His help.

Quote
-- Hyper-literalists are nuts.

Jesus quoted scripture as something that cannot be broken when refuting the Pharisees and the Sadducees so I suggest you reconsider, because if they were just stories, they would laugh at Him to shame, but they did not.  The fact that Jesus validated Noah and the global flood should slap any believer in the face for believing in the evolution theory.

Quote
-- At least one YE felt obliged for some reason to detour into deriding those of us who hold to a Pentecostal understanding of Rom. 8:26-27.  What was the point of that, other than to be unnecessarily insulting?

Because not all Bible are saying the same thing for why many believers do not understand that there is a supernatural tongue in the world in the occults, idolatry, world's religions for why God would never have His gift of tongue mimic that kind of tongue if believers are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil.  His gift of tongues is NOT for private use when ALL Bibles say in John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues to speak His own intercessions by.  Therefore why Romans 8:26-27 in the KJV has it right when not even His groanings can be uttered.  As it is, tongue speakers today ignore the warning from John about not believing every spirit but test them in 1 John 4:1-6 as well as the tongue they bring and ignoring Paul's warning about any one preaching another Jesus to receive, thus moving away from the simplicity of the gospel in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 because Jesus Christ is in us always per our faith 2 Corinthians 13:5

Quote
-- There is a ton of blather from at least one of the YEs about the Pre-Trib Rapture in relation to whether or not we hold YE beliefs.  First, it's nutty to link the two.  Second, what about those of us who do not hold to Pre-Trib Rapturism?

Because there can be no lie of the truth in fellowship at the Marriage Supper table.  What is required for proper church fellowship down here is definitely enforced in Heaven in order to eat there.

Quote
-- I do have serious qualms about using the various natural sciences to determine what Gen. 1-11 must have meant and not meant.  I have equal qualms about trying to force the evidences of the natural sciences to fit a literalistic reading of Gen. 1-11.  I believe philology and theology should be the primary tools used to interpret Scripture; if the meaning does not comport with the findings of the natural sciences, accept the mystery.  (I specify "natural" sciences, because I consider philology and theology to be "sciences" of their own sorts.)

Do you have qualms that those who contend for the evolution theory here are not even sticking to the definition they had trolled out for scientific theory for which AVZ corrected them for a scientific theory to be valid when it has to be able to observe the phenomenon in the natural world?  And yet they who would trot out that definition are now denying it while saying that the evolution theory is true and a fact.  So what is wrong with this picture?

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3089 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 09:13:17 »

Nope, there is creation via evolution. It was God that set the universe in motion creating all life and matter.

What you are proposing is not a third option. It is in fact one option alternating the other.
So sometimes it is creation, and sometimes it is evolution.

What you are proposing is that God created evolution.
But that would make evolution a supernatural event.
Now, if indeed evolution is a supernatural event, then science cannot study it because science cannot study things that are supernatural.

What you are proposing is in fact a contradiction in terms.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 09:30:55 by AVZ »

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3090 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 09:28:12 »
Wrong. But I am not going to waste time restating what I have stated previously as it will only be ignored.

I am not sure why you think you are being ignored.
Anyway, I think my claim is perfectly intelligible and I have deposited my response to Alan in the above reply.


I should reply to this with the same reply I gave AVZ but it just begs for a question to be answered.

When and at what point, during the evolution of man, that you are bent on believing, did God the Creator give man as we know him a soul?

I will forgo any discussion of our being spirits, living in a body , and having a soul becauseI would guess you do not subscribe to the belief of the triune nature of man. But you , Avz, and even I all have souls... IF you actually believe the Holy Bible, that confirms this you cannot deny it.

Do you think it was 200 million years ago? 30,000 years ago? or maybe not until we die awaiting our judgements?  When?

And once you answer that for us, just think about this one.... I will not ask for an answer.

Why do you think God gave man a soul? For what purpose?

When in the entirelty of his eternity past creations why do you and I and Avz, and Barbarian, and Michael 2012, and NorrinRadd, and Last Call, and RB, and mommydi, and TC and Notreligus and everyone else posting in this thread and everyone posting on GC. And even Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump...... WHY were we all given souls.... and when and for what purpose..... when there is no record of anything else ever having one.... Certainly not of those we allegedly morphed from.....

JUST think about this one. It should never be out of thought in any evolutionists mind.

The attribution of a soul to humanoids somewhere in the evolution from ape to man, is a dilemma only faced by Deist Evolutionists. And its a theological question.
They are well aware that if man originates from apes and only natural processes remained, then the gospel would be in severe jeopardy.
So they have to come up with some event that lifted apes to such a certain spiritual level that they would not longer be classified as apes, but sufficiently suitable for salvation.

According to the evolutionary time scale, humans came on the scene about 6 million years ago.
Primates supposedly were around some 50 million years ago.

So somewhere after 45 million years of primate evolution, God decided they were sufficiently evolved to receive a soul and ape was lifted to human level.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3091 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 09:34:34 »
What you are proposing is not a third option. It is in fact one option alternating the other.
So sometimes it is creation, and sometimes it is evolution.

What you are proposing is that God created evolution.
But that would make evolution a supernatural event.
Now, if indeed evolution is a supernatural event, then science cannot study it because science cannot study things that are supernatural.

It would also be a contradiction in itself, because evolution by definition claims to be something purely materialistic without the involvement of the supernatural.


Stop injecting philosophy to confuse very simple ideologies. God created the singularity and set it in motion at His will.


Even if you don't accept evolution or old earth views, the fact that things are changing cannot be denied. At what point then did God hand over His creation to the essence of nature?

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3092 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 10:04:23 »

Stop injecting philosophy to confuse very simple ideologies. God created the singularity and set it in motion at His will.


Even if you don't accept evolution or old earth views, the fact that things are changing cannot be denied. At what point then did God hand over His creation to the essence of nature?

I am not injecting confusion, I think you are.
I am perfectly OK if you say that God created a singularity and left it over to itself. That would mean the evolution of the singularity would become a purely materialistic event, and science could study it.
But you inject God into the mixture by saying God set it in motion. You now inject supernatural power into the evolution of the singularity, so it becomes outside the realm of science.

I don't believe that God ever hand over His creation to the essence of nature.
I believe that every element of life, every expression of energy is an essence of Gods power. If God would leave this universe over to its own, it would cease to exist.
God may not create new things anymore, but God does uphold this universe with His power.

I dont have to answer the question of the "when", that's actually a question you should answer because only your theory calls for nature being the driving force behind nature.

By the way, I notice that you now have "demoted" your position to "ideology".
Is that what you think your position is? An ideology?

Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3093 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 10:33:17 »

According to the evolutionary time scale, humans came on the scene about 6 million years ago.
Primates supposedly were around some 50 million years ago.

So somewhere after 45 million years of primate evolution, God decided they were sufficiently evolved to receive a soul and ape was lifted to human level.

Interesting to think about.

More interesting to wonder then why it would have taken 45million years less 6,000 give or take, for God to say "The tie is now" for us to receive our written instructions and history book.

Something is in the works... and that also is interesting to think about.

However.... it is also interesting to think of God adding to his creations the human being that truly only came into existence at the time God had another creation He wanted to make. Someone who was meant for a higher purpose and plan. Someone equal too but advanced beyond all of the eternity past creations that God the Father has done.

I believe there is a reason man is as he is with a soul (I believe spirit, in a body with a soul)... and it is totally separate from what had been going on 45 or 50 million of years ago... 45 or 50 billion of ears ago or forever into eternity past.

And that is the reason I believe that evolutionists are largely, though not totally correct, as well as YE are also.

I believe we were made separately and wonderfully for a purpose and a reason.

And my beliefs are why I said Wrong to your "There are only two options: Creation or Evolution". I just see the possibility of a third




Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3094 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 10:52:37 »
Quote
I am not sure what you mean with "another kind" of evolution.
There are only two options: Creation or Evolution

The actual fact is "creation and evolution."

Quote
Even if you claim that a Creator used evolution to create, you still make the claim that a Creator used purely materialistic means to bring His creation about.

Nope.   For example, your soul was not created by natural means.   God does most things in this world by nature, but not all of them.

Quote
In scientific terms that is called Intelligent Design.

Intelligent design is the belief that God is not powerful enough to create, and must "design" instead.

Quote
Science, by its own admission, limits itself to the natural.
So an evolutionist who claims interference by an intelligence outside the realm of the natural, does not make a scientific statement.

Yes.   Science can't even consider the supernatural.   But scientists can.   If this puzzles you, then you're starting to make some progress.

Quote
As far as science is concerned, it is an invalid statement.

No.  Science neither confirms nor denies the supernatural.   

Quote
There is only 1 kind of evolution

Nope.   For example, there's adaptive evolution, driven by random mutation and natural selection.   There's random variation, where alleles are neutral.   There's lateral gene transfer, where genes can be transferred from one kind of organism to another.   It's not very common in vertebrates but it's extremely common in prokaryotes.

Quote
and that is a 100% materialistic origin of the universe.

Nope.   Evolutionary theory makes no claims about the origin of the universe.   Neither does science.

Quote
You say that YEC's acknowledge macro evolution.

Yep.   They just redefined it as "not really evolution."

Quote
Can you perhaps point me to some evidence of that?

Both "Answers in Genesis" and the ICR admit speciation is a fact.

Quote
And since you claim the YEC's obfuscate the definition of "macroevolution" maybe you can post the definition you think is the only proper definition which we should use in the continuation of this discussion.

Technically, "microevolution" is change of allele frequencies within a species.    "Macroevolution" is change that results in new taxa.   Speciation, in other words.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3095 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 11:15:33 »
I am not injecting confusion, I think you are.
I am perfectly OK if you say that God created a singularity and left it over to itself. That would mean the evolution of the singularity would become a purely materialistic event, and science could study it.
But you inject God into the mixture by saying God set it in motion. You now inject supernatural power into the evolution of the singularity, so it becomes outside the realm of science.

I don't believe that God ever hand over His creation to the essence of nature.
I believe that every element of life, every expression of energy is an essence of Gods power. If God would leave this universe over to its own, it would cease to exist.
God may not create new things anymore, but God does uphold this universe with His power.

I dont have to answer the question of the "when", that's actually a question you should answer because only your theory calls for nature being the driving force behind nature.

By the way, I notice that you now have "demoted" your position to "ideology".
Is that what you think your position is? An ideology?


You really do try to confuse things by inserting your own rules, fortunately they do not apply. FWIW, no one outside of theistic religion knows what set the singularity in motion, it is nothing more than speculation among the atheistic scientific community. I say that God did it.


And yes, things are changing. We have observed many of these changes in our life times. Is that God or nature?

Offline LastCall

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3096 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 14:27:52 »
Interesting to think about.

More interesting to wonder then why it would have taken 45million years less 6,000 give or take, for God to say "The tie is now" for us to receive our written instructions and history book.

Something is in the works... and that also is interesting to think about.

However.... it is also interesting to think of God adding to his creations the human being that truly only came into existence at the time God had another creation He wanted to make. Someone who was meant for a higher purpose and plan. Someone equal too but advanced beyond all of the eternity past creations that God the Father has done.

I believe there is a reason man is as he is with a soul (I believe spirit, in a body with a soul)... and it is totally separate from what had been going on 45 or 50 million of years ago... 45 or 50 billion of ears ago or forever into eternity past.

And that is the reason I believe that evolutionists are largely, though not totally correct, as well as YE are also.

I believe we were made separately and wonderfully for a purpose and a reason.

And my beliefs are why I said Wrong to your "There are only two options: Creation or Evolution". I just see the possibility of a third


The genealogy given in scripture regarding Jesus Christ back to the creation of Adam leaves no room for the possibility of a third option, let alone the option for evolution. Luke 3:23-38

If we look at Jesus for what we are hoping in Him for;  to put death and hades in the lake of fire so that those redeemed can never be separated from Him ever again, then we have to acknowledge where death had come from in the first place as scripture testify to this.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Why do you think women are not allowed to speak in church nor to teach in church?  It was because of Eve being blamed for tempting man to doubt God's words that Adam heard directly from God.  Thatw s why teh serpent went after Eve because God's commandment not to eat from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil came before Eve was created and so Satan sown doubt in her mind of what she did not hear God said directly.  That in turn caused Adam to doubt when the woman said otherwise, but he knew better because he heard it straight from God.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

So that had happened for why that commandment was in place due to the fall of mankind.  Adam, Eve, and Satan were all punished even though Satan did not eat from that forbidden tree but he tempted Eve for which both had fallen and so he was punished also.  That punishment sets the order still in place in the N.T. as found at the fall.  Adam was punished by hard labor for harkening unto the voice of his wife, signifying why women were punished by being ruled over by men since the fall and still in the N.T.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

1 Corinthians 11: Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Not to mention Jesus referring to Noah's flood as a real time global event of a judgment from God for why He was warning believers of what is coming when the Son of man.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Nobody chasten the Lord by saying that was just a story.  It happened just as Sodom & Gomorrah did too.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Where is science telling us about the global flood during man's history on the earth?  Nonexistent.  If they had any credibility, they would have presented that as an actual historical event, but they did not. 

Stephen Jay Gould did present the theory of Rapid Macroevolution or Punctuated Equilibrium because Gradual macroevolution cannot be true due to the huge gaps of transitional fossils in the fossil records, but the irony here is that he proposed that to account for the explosion in the fossil record, a global flood had to occur in order to tap that capacity BUT he estimated that it happened back in the Cambrian Period.  Wrong.

A newspaper article had evolutionists covering up the evidence of that Biblical global flood saying the mountains rose from the sea trapping marine life on it, but they are remiss for not explaining how fossilized land animal bones were found with fossilized whale bones and other marine life TOGETHER on the Andes mountains.  Not only that, but fossilzied marine life can be found pretty mucb everywhere if you know where to look for it, let alone acknowledge it as so without ever realizing the implication of finding even a fossilized shell nowhere near an ocean.

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/12/us/whale-fossils-high-in-andes-show-how-mountains-rose-from-sea.html
 
So people see what they want to see and they do a lot of lack common sense in doing it, because they want to believe in the evolution theory.

I believe in Jesus and His words and that He had verified scripture as it is supposed to be taken as He did defend what marriage meant to be since the beginning of the creation of man and woman and He did verify what the sabbath day was made for as scripture pointed to it as God resting that day from the six days of creation.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3097 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 14:39:21 »
The genealogy given in scripture regarding Jesus Christ back to the creation of Adam leaves no room for the possibility of a third option, let alone the option for evolution. Luke 3:23-38


That makes absolutely no sense at all, one is not dependent on the other.

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3098 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 18:23:48 »
  Many oceanic sediments are not uplifted mountains, or the result of receding oceans.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 22:59:13 by The Barbarian »

Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3099 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 20:45:02 »

The genealogy given in scripture regarding Jesus Christ back to the creation of Adam leaves no room for the possibility of a third option, let alone the option for evolution. Luke 3:23-38



Yes it does if you look at the bible from Adam to Revelation as a literal text book for the Judeo /Christians of God having provided a way for us, by history and clear instruction from Adam forward, through the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins as our savior ... to the only living souls that have ever had the opportunity to attain an eternal heavenly home once we sre dead to this earth.

All in the blink of an eye, to God, who for 6,10, or 13 thousand years has provided this to us.

If there were others, then it would have said so i the bible.

It is as if we are in a special selection chosen for such a time as this for whatever the reason God wants this to be.

And yes it does if you read the very first line of Gen 1(nkjv) with a new and open mind ...

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Because this single statement says volumes. It says that in the beginning. The beginning of what? The beginning when?

The beginning could be 6,000 years ago or it could be many trillions of billions of years ago and that would have no negative effect on YE believers or evolutionists.

The fact is.... Taking Gen 1 :1 simply tells us it is possible... and I say likely... that both are correct and
that gives us a third option.



Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3100 on: Fri Dec 14, 2018 - 22:55:20 »
Quote
Where is science telling us about the global flood during man's history on the earth?  Nonexistent.

Since scripture doesn't say it was global, either, that makes sense.

Quote
Stephen Jay Gould did present the theory of Rapid Macroevolution or Punctuated Equilibrium because Gradual macroevolution cannot be true due to the huge gaps of transitional fossils in the fossil records,

Nope.

 
Quote
but the irony here is that he proposed that to account for the explosion in the fossil record, a global flood had to occur in order to tap that capacity BUT he estimated that it happened back in the Cambrian Period.  Wrong.

No, that's wrong, too.   Read his essay Was the Cambrian Explosion a Sigmoid Fraud?

Quote
A newspaper article had evolutionists covering up the evidence of that Biblical global flood saying the mountains rose from the sea trapping marine life on it,

No.  The mountains that were raised up (sometimes still measurably rising) were marine rocks with fossils.   Mt. Everest, for example, is made of marine fossils.

Quote
but they are remiss for not explaining how fossilized land animal bones were found with fossilized whale bones and other marine life TOGETHER on the Andes mountains.

Same way mass beaching of whales still happens today.   No mystery there.

Instead of believing stories like this, why not just let God do it His way?    Once you do that, it won't bother you any  longer. 

Offline LastCall

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3101 on: Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 09:21:46 »
Yes it does if you look at the bible from Adam to Revelation as a literal text book for the Judeo /Christians of God having provided a way for us, by history and clear instruction from Adam forward, through the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins as our savior ... to the only living souls that have ever had the opportunity to attain an eternal heavenly home once we sre dead to this earth.

All in the blink of an eye, to God, who for 6,10, or 13 thousand years has provided this to us.

If there were others, then it would have said so i the bible.

It is as if we are in a special selection chosen for such a time as this for whatever the reason God wants this to be.

And yes it does if you read the very first line of Gen 1(nkjv) with a new and open mind ...

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Because this single statement says volumes. It says that in the beginning. The beginning of what? The beginning when?

The beginning could be 6,000 years ago or it could be many trillions of billions of years ago and that would have no negative effect on YE believers or evolutionists.

The fact is.... Taking Gen 1 :1 simply tells us it is possible... and I say likely... that both are correct and
that gives us a third option.

The very first sentence is the topic and the following verses was how God went about accomplishing that in the first verse.  The important thing to remember that scripture was not originally separated by chapters nor numbered by chapters and verses.  The first account of creation  involved in that topic started at verse 1, actually ends in Genesis 2:3 before the next topic began in verse 4 about the generations of mankind and where man has come from which is a rehash of what had happened on the sixth day.

But first the first account of creation as this was more about how God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Verses 2-4 is the first day of creation where light came into existence to establish what?  The first day of creation by how there was evening and morning that first day.  That 24 hour period was established first for that first day that was created in creation as it followed it afterwards for the other five days of creation.

That means time was established that very first day; hence the beginning of time as there was nothing before that time of that first day of creation.

Another important truth is that there was no earth nor heavens that first day.  Over the next 2 days, is about the formation of earth as water was separated to form a water planet with an upper atmosphere.  How do we know that it literally meant the earth was not there as in without shape and void?  Because the heavens was created the fourth day to give lights to the earth for seasons.

Now if we were to assume that there were no other people than God's chosen people, we forget that when Cain killed Abel and Seth replaced Abel, Seth was the ancestor connecting to Adam that Israel's family tree came from as "representing the godly line as the sons of God" which the nation of Isreal was before it changed in John 1:12-13 on who the sons of God are now. 

And although we have this in scripture;

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Not all of Adam and Eve's children were godly;  just the line of Seth was godly for why they were called the sons of God by whom are Isreal's ancestry or roots are from.  We can see the warning to not marry outside the nation of Isreal per what had happened when the sons of God married outside their godly lineage before the flood.  The fact that Jesus verified Noah's flood testify that His words in Genesis are valid for why God told Israel not to marry outside the nation of Isreal.

The Law of Biogenesis can account for the variations of speciies of animals and so that is why there are variations of the speciies of man as we are all of one race, the human race as we are all descendents of Noah and his family as only 8 souls were saved being on that ark.

Abraham married his half sister whereas many years later, as the nation of Isreal, he would not have been allowed to. 

Genesis 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. 12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

And so it was in the beginning of creation for where Cain got his wife, because the reason why Cain was fearful for killing Abel, because everybody living on the earth was family for why he had no place to go to be safe for killing his brother.  If there were other created men and women on earth, then he would have a place and a people to hide among, but there was none.

The error of most believers is thinking Cain & Abel were the only ones Eve had given birth to when Genesis went into that background of how godly Abel was killed for why Seth was to be conceived to replace the slain godly brother from which Israel sprung from.

So the Bible is about His story as the God that created us and has redeemed us and thus has saved us for all those that believe in Jesus Christ so we would never be separated from God ever again.

So there was no reason for there to be any other people when sin cane into the world by Adam and death by sin was how death came into the world.  To have death before Adam and Eve takes away the glory of God in salvation in Christ Jesus of His Story, because then what do you have hope for is His word is not really saying what is written?  How can you believe His words will be kpet that death and hades will be cast into the lake of fire forever signifying we will never sin against God and never be separated from God ever again?

So I can understand the conveniency of the Bible serving what appears to be the nation of Isreal, but it really isn't when His Story as in the Bible is about Jesus Christ all along because there is no other future to be had for there to be any reason for someone else to be created than Adam & Eve for how ALL men inherited the sin due to the fall of Adam & Eve.

So when you read Genesis 1:1, the following verses all the way to Genesis 2:3 is how God did Genesis 1:1 as the first day of creation in His words, literally meant the first day, signifying by that evening and morning, that 24 hour period, for that first day.  Indeed, the first day ws the beginning for the creation of the heavens and the earth.

Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3102 on: Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 09:25:53 »
The very first sentence is the topic and the following verses was how God went about accomplishing that in the first verse.  The important thing to remember that scripture was not originally separated by chapters nor numbered by chapters and verses.  The first account of creation  involved in that topic started at verse 1, actually ends in Genesis 2:3 before the next topic began in verse 4 about the generations of mankind and where man has come from which is a rehash of what had happened on the sixth day.

But first the first account of creation as this was more about how God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Verses 2-4 is the first day of creation where light came into existence to establish what?  The first day of creation by how there was evening and morning that first day.  That 24 hour period was established first for that first day that was created in creation as it followed it afterwards for the other five days of creation.

That means time was established that very first day; hence the beginning of time as there was nothing before that time of that first day of creation.

Another important truth is that there was no earth nor heavens that first day.  Over the next 2 days, is about the formation of earth as water was separated to form a water planet with an upper atmosphere.  How do we know that it literally meant the earth was not there as in without shape and void?  Because the heavens was created the fourth day to give lights to the earth for seasons.

Now if we were to assume that there were no other people than God's chosen people, we forget that when Cain killed Abel and Seth replaced Abel, Seth was the ancestor connecting to Adam that Israel's family tree came from as "representing the godly line as the sons of God" which the nation of Isreal was before it changed in John 1:12-13 on who the sons of God are now. 

And although we have this in scripture;

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Not all of Adam and Eve's children were godly;  just the line of Seth was godly for why they were called the sons of God by whom are Isreal's ancestry or roots are from.  We can see the warning to not marry outside the nation of Isreal per what had happened when the sons of God married outside their godly lineage before the flood.  The fact that Jesus verified Noah's flood testify that His words in Genesis are valid for why God told Israel not to marry outside the nation of Isreal.

The Law of Biogenesis can account for the variations of speciies of animals and so that is why there are variations of the speciies of man as we are all of one race, the human race as we are all descendents of Noah and his family as only 8 souls were saved being on that ark.

Abraham married his half sister whereas many years later, as the nation of Isreal, he would not have been allowed to. 

Genesis 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. 12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

And so it was in the beginning of creation for where Cain got his wife, because the reason why Cain was fearful for killing Abel, because everybody living on the earth was family for why he had no place to go to be safe for killing his brother.  If there were other created men and women on earth, then he would have a place and a people to hide among, but there was none.

The error of most believers is thinking Cain & Abel were the only ones Eve had given birth to when Genesis went into that background of how godly Abel was killed for why Seth was to be conceived to replace the slain godly brother from which Israel sprung from.

So the Bible is about His story as the God that created us and has redeemed us and thus has saved us for all those that believe in Jesus Christ so we would never be separated from God ever again.

So there was no reason for there to be any other people when sin cane into the world by Adam and death by sin was how death came into the world.  To have death before Adam and Eve takes away the glory of God in salvation in Christ Jesus of His Story, because then what do you have hope for is His word is not really saying what is written?  How can you believe His words will be kpet that death and hades will be cast into the lake of fire forever signifying we will never sin against God and never be separated from God ever again?

So I can understand the conveniency of the Bible serving what appears to be the nation of Isreal, but it really isn't when His Story as in the Bible is about Jesus Christ all along because there is no other future to be had for there to be any reason for someone else to be created than Adam & Eve for how ALL men inherited the sin due to the fall of Adam & Eve.

So when you read Genesis 1:1, the following verses all the way to Genesis 2:3 is how God did Genesis 1:1 as the first day of creation in His words, literally meant the first day, signifying by that evening and morning, that 24 hour period, for that first day.  Indeed, the first day ws the beginning for the creation of the heavens and the earth.

Whatever

Offline LastCall

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3103 on: Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 09:30:55 »
Whatever

Sent PM for several points for you to reconsider.  I did read your PM for why I am reiterating some points with more clarity, hoping He will cause the increase in the knowledge of Him.

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3104 on: Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 10:25:25 »
Quote
Have you taken into account what you say here in dealing with the past?

Barbarian observes:   
Yep.

Quote
That too then is a fact in the past. And with that, it is impossible too, to tell what happened in the past, not knowing the actual environment then.

No, you're wrong about tehat.   The argument that we can't know anything we didn't see happen, is demonstrably wrong.   And yes we can also know what the environment was in the past, but looking at the evidence.

Quote
So that, scientific calculations regarding the past are based on assumptions and speculation

Facts and evidence.   No point in denying the facts.

Quote
May I ask, as a Christian, do you believe that Satan have power?

Barbarian explains:
If you are a Christian, he has no power over you that you do not give to him willingly.

Quote
That is not the question sir. Let me ask that again. Do you believe that Satan have supernatural power?

Barbarian observes:
If you'd read scripture, you'd notice that it's the only kind he has, subject to God's willingness to grant him anything else.

Quote
If that were as you say with Satan, then man is subject to God's willingness to grant him anything else.

He already granted powers to us.

Quote
You are putting man and Satan then as equals.

If you'd read scripture, you'd know better.   Can Satan bring God to him, when he wants?    God promises that whenever two or more of us come together in His name, He will be there for us.

Quote
For Satan is a spirit creature that has abilities greater than man.

He has no force over you, unless you grant it to him.   He is not another god; he's a pitiful being, unable to reconcile himself to God, being eternally separated from the truth.

Quote
Had it ever occurred to you that he is trying to deceive the world today,

Barbarian observes:
No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.

Quote
So, you believe.

I showed you examples.
 
Quote
The deception may well be, telling us to believe in the work of scientists, believing, unbelieving, and atheist scientists included, their theories about HOW the heavens and the earth, the living creatures, and man came into being. The deception today is similar to that in the beginning.

In your case, Satan's telling you to believe that science what caused heaven and earth to come into being.

Barbarian observes:
As you see, he deceived her by telling part of the truth.   It's his nature to do that.  No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.

 Satan often uses a part of the truth to deceive.
     
Quote
Today people's eyes are pleased of all the things that is the fruit of science and see it desirable to make one wise.

God says:
Proverbs 18:15 An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

The fruit of YE creationism no doubt appeals to others, who think it's desirable to make them wise.   Could it be that others, like Eve, were deceived, they took of its fruit and ate. And still others, like Adam, they heed the voice of others, that they also ate of the fruit?

Barbarian observes:
Indeed.   It was knowledge that caused the fall.   It was when their eyes were opened, they knew good and evil and became like God.   Do you understand why that was initially a curse and later a blessing?

YE creationism is just the latest way the serpent seeks to undermine God.    It seems, the old serpent, uses the same deception, knowledge.

Proverbs 18:15 An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

Quote
Yes, for what I said is what scriptures says about knowledge. That it puffs up the man. He puffs him up to the point of losing sight of the truth, of God. He is brought to look on his works and achievements, how great they are, even leading him to preach and teach it as though it is the truth, working systematically to instill such in the unbelieving young, and working tirelessly and passionately to persuade the children of God to believe him. Such pride he have, and such arrogance.

Learning scriptures does indeed puff up some people.   And so they add things to it to suit themselves.



Offline LastCall

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3105 on: Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 10:40:56 »
Has any body noticed how some Christian evolutionists had trotted the definition of that scientific theory in how they are not adhering to that definition for why the macroevolution cannot be valid when that phenomenon cannot be observed in the natural world but the theory of gravity can?

And yet we can't hold them to it as another Christian evolutionist seem to be offended for creationists to limit that definition of the scientific theory to observing the phenomenon in the natural world.

So pray for them.  They want to accuse us for being uneducated, but they are coming across as having eyes but not seeing.  It is a war of principality & only God can recover them from this lie.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3106 on: Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 13:50:20 »
Has any body noticed how some Christian evolutionists had trotted the definition of that scientific theory in how they are not adhering to that definition for why the macroevolution cannot be valid when that phenomenon cannot be observed in the natural world but the theory of gravity can?

And yet we can't hold them to it as another Christian evolutionist seem to be offended for creationists to limit that definition of the scientific theory to observing the phenomenon in the natural world.

So pray for them.  They want to accuse us for being uneducated, but they are coming across as having eyes but not seeing.  It is a war of principality & only God can recover them from this lie.


You ARE uneducated but it's slightly amusing watching you make a fool of yourself  ::crackup::

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3107 on: Sun Dec 16, 2018 - 01:41:29 »
Quote
Has any body noticed how some Christian evolutionists had trotted the definition of that scientific theory in how they are not adhering to that definition for why the macroevolution cannot be valid when that phenomenon cannot be observed in the natural world but the theory of gravity can?

Macroevolution has been directly observed.   As you learned, even YE creationist organizations admit it.   They just redefined the term to exclude the evolution of new taxa.   However, the definition of a theory is not "directly observed."    It is an idea or a group of ideas that have been repeatedly confirmed by evidence.   Hence, Huxley's prediction of feathered dinosaurs has been confirmed, as has Darwin's prediction of increasing fitness in populations over time, and many others.

Quote
And yet we can't hold them to it as another Christian evolutionist seem to be offended for creationists to limit that definition of the scientific theory to observing the phenomenon in the natural world.

You're still having trouble understanding what a scientific theory is.

May God give you the grace to know when you don't understand.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9805
  • Manna: 417
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3108 on: Sun Dec 16, 2018 - 05:46:53 »
If you are a Christian, he has no power over you that you do not give to him willingly.
I thought you did fairly well with some of your answers to LastCall. I agree with this statement.
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 1:28~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God."
Including Satan, when I'm living in obedience to the word of God, I have no fear of Satan; I give him power over me by my disobedience.
Quote from: The Barbarian  Reply #3104 on: Yesterday at 10:25:25
Facts and evidence.   No point in denying the facts.
While I agree with this in a measure, it's also true that MUCH scientific calculations regarding the past are based on assumptions and speculation...both are true.
Quote from: The Barbarian  Reply #3104 on: Yesterday at 10:25:25
If you'd read scripture, you'd notice that it's the only kind he has, subject to God's willingness to grant him anything else.
Agreed. He is NOT Omnipotent, NETHER Omnipresent, Omniscient, etc. He does not possess the attributes of the Godhead, he was a created spirit.
Quote from: The Barbarian  Reply #3104 on: Yesterday at 10:25:25
He has no force over you, unless you grant it to him.   He is not another god; he's a pitiful being, unable to reconcile himself to God, being eternally separated from the truth.
He does not have any power over us, yet he CAN hinder us, tempt us, etc. He's far from being a pitiful being, for if God was not for us, he could very easily destroy all of us. The reason why he is UNABLE to reconcile himself to God is the very same reason why man cannot do so~He's a man of SIN, where sin rules him and he does not have the WILL TO LOVE GOD, that MUST be given to both angles and MAN! He was NOT part of the elect angles~1st Timothy 5:21! and because of that, yes, he's eternally separated from God.
Quote from: The Barbarian  Reply #3104 on: Yesterday at 10:25:25
No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.
Sir, there is NOT ONE thing a man can believe or not believe that can influence a person coming to Christ! That's a gift from God to his elect on the behalf of Jesus Christ! Maybe you should stick to science instead of teaching the scriptures. ALL that God has given to Christ WILL COME!
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 6:37~"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
So your reasoning is not Biblical.
Quote from: The Barbarian  Reply #3104 on: Yesterday at 10:25:25
Satan often uses a part of the truth to deceive
Agreed
Quote from: The Barbarian  Reply #3104 on: Yesterday at 10:25:25
Indeed.   It was knowledge that caused the fall.
To believe that would make God the reason they fell into sin. You are so wrong on this point. The reason WHY they sinned is God left them to themselves without KEEPING THEM from falling to reveal an important doctrine to us~that is, God ALONE is IMMUTABLE, neither angels nor man are so! The election of some angles KEPT THEM FROM FALLING. So much more could be said, but enough.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 16, 2018 - 05:50:16 by RB »

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3109 on: Sun Dec 16, 2018 - 09:45:42 »
Quote
While I agree with this in a measure, it's also true that MUCH scientific calculations regarding the past are based on assumptions and speculation...both are true.

Can you give us an example of a major point of evolutionary theory that is based on assumptions and speculation? 

(regarding Satan)

Agreed. He is NOT Omnipotent, NETHER Omnipresent, Omniscient, etc. He does not possess the attributes of the Godhead, he was a created spirit.

Barbarian observes:
He has no force over you, unless you grant it to him.   He is not another god; he's a pitiful being, unable to reconcile himself to God, being eternally separated from the truth.

Quote
He does not have any power over us, yet he CAN hinder us, tempt us, etc. He's far from being a pitiful being, for if God was not for us, he could very easily destroy all of us. The reason why he is UNABLE to reconcile himself to God is the very same reason why man cannot do so~He's a man of SIN, where sin rules him and he does not have the WILL TO LOVE GOD, that MUST be given to both angles and MAN! He was NOT part of the elect angles~1st Timothy 5:21! and because of that, yes, he's eternally separated from God.

He's not a man at all.   He's merely a spirit.   He is, as the OT writers pointed out, an overzealous prosecutor, seeing evil everywhere, rebelling against God Who saw potential goodness everywhere.

Barbarian observes:
No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.

Quote
Sir, there is NOT ONE thing a man can believe or not believe that can influence a person coming to Christ!

I notice that various things people believe, demonstrably affects them coming to Christ.

Quote
That's a gift from God to his elect on the behalf of Jesus Christ!

God says not. 
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So no one was created by God to lose salvation.    His will is that all should come to repentance.   He merely gives you the freedom to chose.

Quote
Maybe you should stick to science instead of teaching the scriptures.

That is scripture.   Second book of Peter.   It's worth a read.   So your reasoning is not Biblical.
 
Barbarian observes:
    Indeed.   It was knowledge that caused the fall.

Quote
To believe that would make God the reason they fell into sin.

Only if you suppose they had no choice.   Until they understood good and evil, they were unable to sin.   But by gaining that knowledge, they became like God, as the serpent and God agreed.    The great issue here is that as their eyes were opened and they became morally aware, they were potentially capable of fellowship with God, but were unable to be truly good in order to be so.   This is why a Savior was necessary.


AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3110 on: Sun Dec 16, 2018 - 10:02:09 »
Can you give us an example of a major point of evolutionary theory that is based on assumptions and speculation? 

The singularity

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3111 on: Sun Dec 16, 2018 - 10:12:18 »
The singularity


It's the same assumption as if God snapped His fingers and made it so, or if the singularity was the method in which God triggered the event to follow.

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3112 on: Sun Dec 16, 2018 - 10:14:41 »
Barbarian asks:
Can you give us an example of a major point of evolutionary theory that is based on assumptions and speculation?

Quote
The singularity

Not part of evolutionary theory.   Do you have anything that is actually part of evolutionary theory that's based on assumptions and speculation?


Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5966
  • Manna: 58
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3113 on: Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 09:28:42 »
Barbarian asks:
Can you give us an example of a major point of evolutionary theory that is based on assumptions and speculation?

Not part of evolutionary theory.   Do you have anything that is actually part of evolutionary theory that's based on assumptions and speculation?

Do you have any evidence supporting the theory of evolution, that is not based upon assumptions and speculation? Creationists do not have the mind boggling issues of complexity in light of statistical probabilities relating to design by random chance. If "Christian" evolutionists are going to admit of God's hand and guidance throughout the entire development of complexity through deep time, then they basically admit evolution is false. If they are not, then they demonstrate far greater faith in random chance development of complexity a hundred million times over concerning life on this planet alone. Which is it? Did God remain involved in the process and in fact guide it, which means it was not evolution at all, or do you worship at the feet of random chance? If it is the latter, you certainly do not need to be lecturing or questioning creationists about assumptions and speculation, evolutionists are the masters of the same.

Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5966
  • Manna: 58
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3114 on: Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 09:32:18 »
https://answersingenesis.org/theory-of-evolution/evolution-not-creation-is-a-god-of-the-gaps/

Quote
Evolution (Not Creation) Is a God of the Gaps

............................................ ............................................ .....

Evolution Is Guilty of God-of-the-Gaps Explanations

Ironically, it is actually evolution that is blatantly guilty of god-of-the-gaps explanations. When secular biology books attempt to explain why creatures or plants have a certain design, the answer is almost always “evolution did it” or “natural selection did it” without any explanation as to how the design feature could evolve by chance.

This is what Dawkins has written about the origin of life:

We have no evidence about what the first step in making life was, but we do know the kind of step it must have been. It must have been whatever it took to get natural selection started . . . by some process as yet unknown.2
The above quote is a classic example of evolution being a god-of-the-gaps explanation. There is a total gap in what evolution can explain about the origin of life, and Dawkins invokes the god of evolution to fill in the gap and asserts that natural selection “must” have gotten started somehow. But natural selection by itself cannot create anything; it can only select from things already created.

When my daughters did a two-year advanced biology course at high school in the UK, the teachers kept saying that “evolution did this” and “natural selection did that” for the origin of features like fins and wings and hearts and lungs. Near the end of the course, one of my daughters challenged the teacher and said, “Miss, you keep saying ‘evolution did it,’ but you never actually explain how evolution did it.” The teacher had to confess that my daughter made a valid criticism, and the rest of class agreed.

Since evolution has no credible evidence, biology books use examples of adaptation as supposed examples of evolution. Darwin’s finches and resistant bacteria are held up as classic examples of evolution even though they are not evolution at all. These adaptations involve no new information, but simply a shuffling of existing genes.

Evolution Is Guilty of Being Anti-Science

Ironically, it is evolutionists, not creationists, who are guilty of ignoring scientific evidence.3 Over the last 70 years there have been many thousands of experiments with sophisticated equipment trying to create life in the laboratory from dead matter and energy.4 However, all of these experiments have clearly demonstrated that life cannot come about by chance. Evolutionists have a choice. Either they accept the laboratory experiments or ignore them and put faith in the god of evolution. They have chosen to ignore the evidence and exercise blind faith in chance.

Evolutionary philosophy holds back scientific progress by seeking false evolutionary explanations of origins. If you refuse to believe that a jumbo jet was designed, it will affect the way you investigate the complexity of the aircraft. If you believe that the aircraft evolved by chance, you will not have your mind open to possibilities of coordinated design. When the human genome was discovered to have far more information than expected, evolutionists immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was “junk” DNA because evolution predicts bad design not sophisticated design. However, subsequent work showed that the junk DNA was not junk at all, but highly coordinated information with important functions. That example shows how evolution holds back science.

A few years ago I spoke to a senior professor of microbiology at my university (who is an agnostic) and asked what he thought of the theory of abiogenesis—the theory that life can evolve from dead matter. He said the concept was a type of superstitious black magic. The biology professor had no religious bias and had been taught the dogma of evolution for decades, but he could still see that abiogenesis was not real science but so speculative that it could be called black magic.

The Missing Link: Yet Another Gap in Evolution’s Knowledge

When Darwin published his Origin of Species more than 150 years ago, one of the problems with his theory was that there was a missing link between man and apes. That missing link is still missing today despite extensive searches for fossil evidence of evolution all over the world. Fossil evidence shows that humans have always been strikingly different from apes. Humans walk on two legs, whereas apes walk on all four limbs. Humans have an arched foot, whereas apes have a flexible foot like a hand. Fossil evidence shows that no ape-like creature has ever had an arched foot for walking upright. As with every other aspect of evolution, the evolutionist ignores the gaps and encourages everyone to put their faith in the god of evolution.

Evolution Is Like a Magic Wand

I recently talked with another senior professor of microbiology at my university (another agnostic), and he made a surprisingly frank admission about evolution being a “god of the gaps.” He is not a creationist but like many biologists can see the serious weaknesses in the theory of evolution (although he keeps his views discreet for fear of losing his job). This microbiologist told me that evolution can be described as a “magic wand.” He said that he has noticed how even the experts say “evolution did this” and “natural selection did that” without any actual explanation being given and no demonstration in the laboratory. He said that the evolutionist can explain any aspect of origins by simply waving a magic wand and saying “evolution did it.”

Paying Homage to the God of Evolution

Evolution makes no useful contribution to scientific and technological advances. However, there is an unwritten rule in the modern secular biology community that after completing a scientific study (on a topic not linked to evolution), evolution is mentioned in the write-up as being the explanation for the origin of features of design. In the same way that a religious essay is finished by paying homage to a particular god, so in modern secular biology essays are finished by paying homage to evolution. I have personally worked on biology-related projects where this is exactly what has happened. The end result is that the community blindly believes that the god of evolution must be true.

A Battle of Worldviews

Biblical creation versus evolution is not “faith versus science,” but a worldview that includes God versus a worldview that has excluded God. Evolution is not a scientific theory because it has an unjustified assumption that God was not involved in origins. It is wrong for Christians to be accused of having a hidden religious agenda because biblical creation openly declares its worldview. Ironically, it is actually evolution that hides its atheistic agenda by pretending to be just science. If Isaac Newton and the other great scientists were here today, they would be astonished and saddened at the atheistic bias in modern secular science.

Giving Credit to the Creator

In modern society, a scientist is not allowed to say “God did it” for any aspect of creation, whether it is ultimate origins or the origin of any detailed design feature. The phrase “God did it” is seen as anti-scientific. But if God is the author of creation, then He deserves acknowledgement and credit for His work. And if God is the author of creation, then scientific investigation can only be helped by recognizing God as Creator.

If you refused to believe that a jumbo jet had been designed, then that would be dishonoring to the designers. How much more dishonoring it is when secular science and the secular media refuse to acknowledge that creation has a Designer. Thankfully there are many scientists today who are prepared to acknowledge the Creator despite the risk to their jobs and careers. Such scientists can have the satisfaction of knowing they stand shoulder to shoulder with the greatest scientists that ever lived such as Newton, Kepler, Pascal, Faraday, Maxwell, Kelvin, and Flemming. And by the way, the last three great scientists in this list knew of Darwin’s theory and rejected it—a fact that secular science has never publicized.