Author Topic: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?  (Read 96227 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12717
  • Manna: 321
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3115 on: Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 12:12:39 »
That was a lot of really stupid stuff.  Typical for answersingenesis.  Point in fact:  Nothing in evolution denies God as author of creation.  Whether or not some scientists believe in God is totally moot.

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3116 on: Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 17:52:16 »
Quote
Do you have any evidence supporting the theory of evolution, that is not based upon assumptions and speculation?

Directly observed evolution, including macroevolutionary events.   Many different series of transitional forms in the fossil record.   Observed instances of natural selection, showing increases in fitness in populations.   Confirmed evidence that dinosaurs were the precursors to birds, such as dinosaur heme and collagen being more like that of birds than of other reptiles, avian repiratory systems in dinosaurs, feathered dinosaurs, etc.  Genetic data showing humans being more closely related to chimpanzees than either is to other apes.  Evidence for chromosome fusion in humans.   Demonstration that there are no well-defined limits to species.   The fact that all living things on Earth fit nicely into a family tree, which was discovered long before anyone knew of evolution.

To name a few.   

Quote
Creationists do not have the mind boggling issues of complexity in light of statistical probabilities relating to design by random chance.

As you know, Darwin's great discovery was that it doesn't work by chance.   You've been repeatedly reminded about this, and yet you continue to post as though you never knew it.

Quote
If "Christian" evolutionists are going to admit of God's hand and guidance throughout the entire development of complexity through deep time, then they basically admit evolution is false.

YE creationist say this, because they don't think that God is capable enough and wise enough to create a world in which life can develop according to His will.

Quote
If they are not, then they demonstrate far greater faith in random chance development of complexity a hundred million times over concerning life on this planet alone.

You know better than this. You've been repeatedly reminded of this.   And yet you continue to write things like this as if you never knew it.   You either have a very defective memory, or you are pretending you don't know.

Quote
Which is it?

I prefer to think you are so deeply committed to your man-made doctrines, that you just put it out of your mind.

But it's a very poor reflection on your beliefs.


 

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3117 on: Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 17:56:15 »
AiG and Ken Ham both are deluded, Ham has been embarrassed on more than one occasion.

Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5966
  • Manna: 58
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3118 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 13:14:08 »
That was a lot of really stupid stuff.  Typical for answersingenesis.  Point in fact:  Nothing in evolution denies God as author of creation.  Whether or not some scientists believe in God is totally moot.

A great many evolutionists do in fact deny the God of scripture as our Creator. "Christian" evolutionists deny the plain testimony of the creation account in scripture, opting instead for some symbolic or allegoric meaning of the same, for the exact purpose of allowing for their chosen faith in evolution. Meanwhile, they cannot actually tell you what that symbolic or allegorical meaning is, just that it allows for their blind faith in evolution. It is of course obvious why "Christian" evolutionists do not believe fallen humanity needs God's help in arriving at truth. Such is of course not conducive to support for the theory of evolution, since so many evolutionists deny God altogether, if not at least the creation account of scripture.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3118 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 13:14:08 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5966
  • Manna: 58
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3119 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 13:27:44 »
Directly observed evolution, including macroevolutionary events.   Many different series of transitional forms in the fossil record.   Observed instances of natural selection, showing increases in fitness in populations.   Confirmed evidence that dinosaurs were the precursors to birds, such as dinosaur heme and collagen being more like that of birds than of other reptiles, avian repiratory systems in dinosaurs, feathered dinosaurs, etc.  Genetic data showing humans being more closely related to chimpanzees than either is to other apes.  Evidence for chromosome fusion in humans.   Demonstration that there are no well-defined limits to species.   The fact that all living things on Earth fit nicely into a family tree, which was discovered long before anyone knew of evolution.

To name a few.   

As you know, Darwin's great discovery was that it doesn't work by chance.   You've been repeatedly reminded about this, and yet you continue to post as though you never knew it.

YE creationist say this, because they don't think that God is capable enough and wise enough to create a world in which life can develop according to His will.

You know better than this. You've been repeatedly reminded of this.   And yet you continue to write things like this as if you never knew it.   You either have a very defective memory, or you are pretending you don't know.

I prefer to think you are so deeply committed to your man-made doctrines, that you just put it out of your mind.

But it's a very poor reflection on your beliefs.

Same baloney as always. Simply calling evolutionists observations and speculations concerning the same evidence so many interpret differently fact, ever equal actual fact. Some of your supposed facts, are not facts at all, lest your exalted opinion of yourself deems your own speculations as fact. Then of course there is the old false accusation that taking God's word for exactly what it actually says in the creation account, is creating man made doctrine. While evolutionists denying what it actually says without any alternate explanation of the same, equates to the theory of evolution being true God made doctrine because apparently, evolutionists are God. Yea, that's the ticket.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3119 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 13:27:44 »



Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5966
  • Manna: 58
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3120 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 13:39:41 »
AiG and Ken Ham both are deluded, Ham has been embarrassed on more than one occasion.

Neither of them are God, just like evolutionists they are prone to mistakes. We can discuss embarrassing mistakes on both sides of the issue if you would like. There is quite a selection. Of course when creationists make mistakes it is because their theory is based upon the "ignorance" of faith in the plain testimony of scripture, but when evolutionists make mistakes it is just the natural course of science testing and balancing itself. Same old baloney.

The difference is simple. Evolutionist science is based upon faith in the authority of fallen humanities observations by supposed experts of the same. Creationist science is based upon faith in the authority of God's word meaning what it plainly states in its creation account. Both simply seek to establish the authority of their chosen faiths through examination of the same evidence before all.

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3121 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 21:17:17 »
(Barbarian lists some of the evidence for evolution)

Quote
Same baloney as always.

No point in trying to hand-wave it away.  Even YE creationist Kurt Wise admits:
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Kurt Wise Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

 Simply denying the obvious, that honest creationists have already acknowledged to be true, really doesn't help you.
 
Then of course there is the old false assertion that the man-made doctrine of YE creationism is taking God's word for exactly what it actually says in the creation account. 

And at some point, you probably should stop making false claims about evolutionary theory that you've been corrected on time after time.


Offline Amo

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5966
  • Manna: 58
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3122 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 12:33:11 »
(Barbarian lists some of the evidence for evolution)

No point in trying to hand-wave it away.  Even YE creationist Kurt Wise admits:
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Kurt Wise Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

 Simply denying the obvious, that honest creationists have already acknowledged to be true, really doesn't help you.
 
Then of course there is the old false assertion that the man-made doctrine of YE creationism is taking God's word for exactly what it actually says in the creation account. 

And at some point, you probably should stop making false claims about evolutionary theory that you've been corrected on time after time.

Your' twisted application of what "honest" creationists have acknowledged is highly indicative of how twisted the rest of your reasoning is. Nothing they acknowledge amounts to your faith in the man made theory of evolution. They reject what you believe and you know it, so why be dishonest and twist whatever acknowledgments some may have made, into full support for evolution as the predominant mechanism of our existence? This is what you believe and argue, it is not what they believe or argue at all. I guess it is hard for those in the habit of twisting and manipulating evidence toward their own ends in supporting their faith, to stop doing so when addressing the words or intentions of others as well.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3123 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 16:20:50 »
Your' twisted application of what "honest" creationists have acknowledged is highly indicative of how twisted the rest of your reasoning is. Nothing they acknowledge amounts to your faith in the man made theory of evolution. They reject what you believe and you know it, so why be dishonest and twist whatever acknowledgments some may have made, into full support for evolution as the predominant mechanism of our existence? This is what you believe and argue, it is not what they believe or argue at all. I guess it is hard for those in the habit of twisting and manipulating evidence toward their own ends in supporting their faith, to stop doing so when addressing the words or intentions of others as well.


You use very strong words to try to make your point but at the end of the day it means nothing, anyone with half a brain knows that evolution is fact.

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2127
  • Manna: 119
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3124 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 18:04:38 »

You use very strong words to try to make your point but at the end of the day it means nothing, anyone with half a brain knows that evolution is fact.

I don't really have a dog in this fight.  I like to believe that the Bible is understandable on its own terms, and yet I find it undeniable that strict prima facie literalism is a foolish way to approach many Biblical texts.  I do not have the scientific knowledge to evaluate "evolution," nor do I have the philological expertise to evaluate in depth the early chapters of Genesis.

I am, however, a dedicated smart-ass, and so I note that bold-faced portion of your quote can easily be turned against you. ::whistle::

Online Texas Conservative

  • Ethical Dissenter "All 8 Symptoms" Chief Justice! "Radical Political Conservative" Certified Resident Board Genius, it is...Directly. Observable.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12424
  • Manna: 405
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3125 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 18:58:30 »

You use very strong words to try to make your point but at the end of the day it means nothing, anyone with half a brain knows that evolution is fact.

Evolution is Science's current best explanation. Not a "fact."

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3126 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 21:06:21 »
Quote
Your' twisted application of what "honest" creationists have acknowledged

I left you a link. As you know, I quoted him directly and left you the link to the paper/testimony so you could check for yourself.   No point in denying the facts.

Quote
Nothing they acknowledge amounts to your faith in the man made theory of evolution.

Wise is a YE creationist.  He's just honest enough to admit that the many transitional forms in the fossil record are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."  And he is also honest enough to admit that creationists have no way at present to explain this evidence.   He goes on to admit that whales are a particular problem for YE beliefs, since it is impossible at present to reconcile a worldwide flood with regard to whales.   He retains his hope that there might one day be a way to explain these things in a creationist view.

Quote
They reject what you believe and you know it

I pointed that out to you.   They just have the integrity to admit that the evidence does not support their belief.   

Quote
so why be dishonest and twist whatever acknowledgments some may have made, into full support for evolution as the predominant mechanism of our existence?

No one here did that.   I won't characterize your statement as dishonesty; I'll prefer to think of as poor reasoning.

Quote
This is what you believe and argue

No. I pointed out that there are YE creationists who are honest enough to admit evidence that indicates evolution, for which creationists have no  reasonable explanation.   As you know, that's true, but for some reason, you've chosen to characterize my statement differently.   I do hope it's merely poor reasoning on your part.

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3127 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 21:09:01 »
Quote
Evolution is Science's current best explanation. Not a "fact."

Evolution is a directly-observed phenomenon.   A fact.   Evolutionary theory is the best way we have of explaining it at this point.   Common descent is a consequence of evolution, but is not an observed fact.   It is merely an inference, which is supported by a massive body of evidence.   

Would you like to see some of that evidence, again?

Online Texas Conservative

  • Ethical Dissenter "All 8 Symptoms" Chief Justice! "Radical Political Conservative" Certified Resident Board Genius, it is...Directly. Observable.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12424
  • Manna: 405
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3128 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 06:08:10 »
Evolution is a directly-observed phenomenon.   A fact.   Evolutionary theory is the best way we have of explaining it at this point.   Common descent is a consequence of evolution, but is not an observed fact.   It is merely an inference, which is supported by a massive body of evidence.   

Would you like to see some of that evidence, again?

You know dang well what was meant, but you continue to parse and obfuscate in order to win your argument.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12717
  • Manna: 321
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3129 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 06:39:17 »
You know dang well what was meant, but you continue to parse and obfuscate in order to win your argument.
And you don't??  That's a hoot.

Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3130 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 07:48:43 »
For those of you who have a solid belief that we have evolved from basically a single source.

For those of you who believe that there is too much of a tie in of basic... can I simply say ingredients ... that make up life and that supports the evolution of things from some point to what is living today.

For those of you who see science as being the end all that "proves" to your satisfaction that we are here by the evolutionary process and not by devine design.

3 questions.

#1. Where did the human spirit evolve from?

#2  Where did the human soul evolve from?

( according to everything I have ever,  heard , read,  discussed  or debated. We are the only species that possess these  )

#3. What possible reason could the creator God, IF you actually believe there is a creator, have for picking mankind starting back a mere 6,000 to 13,000 years ago to change his original design from having things evolve and just continue on rather then throw a wrench into the mix by  instilling religious beliefs in mankind with a goal of a heavenly eternity, or a punishment of a hellish eternity, if you get it wrong.  Why?

 ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn:

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3131 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 08:13:32 »
Anyone with half a brain knows that evolution is fact.

Absolutely correct!

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12717
  • Manna: 321
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3132 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 08:33:55 »
For those of you who have a solid belief that we have evolved from basically a single source.

For those of you who believe that there is too much of a tie in of basic... can I simply say ingredients ... that make up life and that supports the evolution of things from some point to what is living today.

For those of you who see science as being the end all that "proves" to your satisfaction that we are here by the evolutionary process and not by devine design.

3 questions.

#1. Where did the human spirit evolve from?

#2  Where did the human soul evolve from?

( according to everything I have ever,  heard , read,  discussed  or debated. We are the only species that possess these  )

#3. What possible reason could the creator God, IF you actually believe there is a creator, have for picking mankind starting back a mere 6,000 to 13,000 years ago to change his original design from having things evolve and just continue on rather then throw a wrench into the mix by  instilling religious beliefs in mankind with a goal of a heavenly eternity, or a punishment of a hellish eternity, if you get it wrong.  Why?

 ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn:

Ginger Rella,

The interesting thing in all of this is that the spirit of man did not evolve.  It's source is not even within this universe, the universe created by God.  The spirit of man does not originate in the procreation process of the human being.  The spirit of man, each man individually and uniquely, comes directly and only from God. 

Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Jesus declared that same thing in his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3.  Jesus said,

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The spirit of man is wholly and completely disconnected from the parents of the man.

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3133 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 08:47:50 »
Barbarian clarifies:
Evolution is a directly-observed phenomenon.   A fact.   Evolutionary theory is the best way we have of explaining it at this point.   Common descent is a consequence of evolution, but is not an observed fact.   It is merely an inference, which is supported by a massive body of evidence.   

Would you like to see some of that evidence, again?

Quote
You know dang well what was meant

No, that's the problem.   You seem to be unclear on evolution, which is a directly observed phenomenon, and evolutionary theory, which explains it.  And I'm thinking you're probably confusing both of those with common descent, which is a consequence of evolution.

Quote
but you continue to parse and obfuscate in order to win your argument.

If you think clarification is obfuscation, isn't that a revelation of sorts for you?



Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3134 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 08:53:09 »
Quote
#1. Where did the human spirit evolve from?

Spirits don't evolve.   Comes directly from God.

Quote
#2  Where did the human soul evolve from?

Souls don't evolve.  They come directly from God.

Quote
( according to everything I have ever,  heard , read,  discussed  or debated. We are the only species that possess these  )

I don't think we know for sure, but it's very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes.



AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3135 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 09:48:23 »
I don't think we know for sure, but it's very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes.

Either you don't know for sure, or it is very clear.
Obviously if you cant know for sure then it can't be very clear...so which one is it?

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3136 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 10:42:14 »
Either you don't know for sure, or it is very clear.
Obviously if you cant know for sure then it can't be very clear...so which one is it?


It was a two part answer and very easy to comprehend, do you require some help?

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3137 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 14:34:13 »
Quote
Either you don't know for sure, or it is very clear.
Obviously if you cant know for sure then it can't be very clear...so which one is it?

 
Quote
It was a two part answer and very easy to comprehend, do you require some help?

I imagine he just went back and read the exchange again, and figured it out.   But thanks for your hint.

We don't know for sure if animals have souls.

But it's very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes.


Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3138 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 15:10:58 »
Ginger Rella,

The interesting thing in all of this is that the spirit of man did not evolve.  It's source is not even within this universe, the universe created by God.  The spirit of man does not originate in the procreation process of the human being.  The spirit of man, each man individually and uniquely, comes directly and only from God. 

Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Jesus declared that same thing in his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3.  Jesus said,

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The spirit of man is wholly and completely disconnected from the parents of the man.

Spirits don't evolve.   Comes directly from God.

Souls don't evolve.  They come directly from God.

I don't think we know for sure, but it's very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes.

4WD... Exactly.
 
 The spirit of man does not originate in the procreation process of the human being.  The spirit of man, each man individually and uniquely, comes directly and only from God. 

Barbaian... Definitely

Spirits don't evolve.   Comes directly from God.

Souls don't evolve.  They come directly from God.

We seem to all be on the same page on this........

But this is where our agreement will part.

Now, I am not going to debate the validity of Genesis. We have all been told it is believed Moses wrote the first five books of the OT, but we also have been told it may be someone else.

Too much has been written as to when Genesis actually was written and there seems to be little consensus.

Too much has been written in support of Moses being the author. Or Moses not being the author as there are a couple events that happened after Moses' death. And even suggestions of Moses being the author and it being added to
after his death.

I frankly don't care.

One thing certain is someone did it. And under the inspiration from God. At least that is my belief.

But I also do believe that as things are inspired , short of having a one on one conversation with God as Moses did on the Mount, then transcriptions of inspiration may well come under the inadequacies of man and misinterpretations of man and misunderstanding of man, or incompleteness of man...... Interpretation of inspiration can, will and most likely did allow for
areas of incomplete explanation.

Yes it is true... God told Moses in person

Exodus 34:27 (NKJV)
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

But it is certain He did not dictate all of the first five book of the bible to Moses or whomever wrote them

That being said  in support of your statements I agree with can be further shored up with

Gen 2:7  And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Gen 2:8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.

_______________________________

God formed a man.  We know him as Aam and God breathed life into him.

I believe this would be spirit and soul.

Now, another question:

Why could Adam not have been created... formed by God.... for a purpose totally separate from His creation of the universe and what was created before?

While you can argue that in spots Genesis is vague, and there is no explanation of how anything was made, we are specifically told that God formed man of the dust of the ground and even more specific in Gen 2: 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

Not this nonspecific Gen 1: 6 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

He never said of Adam... the one placed in the Garden of Eden... “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

We are specifically told He did...form man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

He never said of Adam's woman.... in the image of God He created him; male and female

We are told He did .... "the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman,"

Never forget. This man Adam, who God formed from the ground was created then place in Eden. The woman came into existence after Adam was in Eden. Adam and Eve were to be in eden. Not tending the entire earth.

This is very specific.... not ... Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So I repeat my question: Why could Adam not have been created... formed by God.... for a purpose totally separate from His creation of the universe and what was created before?

Even if you are adamant that Adam was an evolution product, which makes Genesis out to be a lie.... ( And brings the rest of the Holy book into question)  Even if Adam was the product of evolution, he was singled out for God to instill spirit and soul into..... AND was originally only to live in the Garden of Eden.....

That begs the question of Why?

AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3139 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 17:31:28 »
But it's very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes.

Most of your evolutionary scientific buddies claim otherwise.
Are you saying that most scientists have a problem recognizing things that are very clear?

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3140 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 17:40:45 »
Most of your evolutionary scientific buddies claim otherwise.


The people that reject creation? Yep

Quote
Are you saying that most scientists have a problem recognizing things that are very clear?

If they are the same people that reject God in the first place, what is clear to the believer is muddied to the disbeliever.

Again, I'm not understanding your difficulty comprehending. You're either clueless or you're attempting to build another straw man.





AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3141 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 19:58:26 »

The people that reject creation? Yep

If they are the same people that reject God in the first place, what is clear to the believer is muddied to the disbeliever.

Again, I'm not understanding your difficulty comprehending. You're either clueless or you're attempting to build another straw man.

I am simply responding to the arbitrary declarations the both of you are making.
The part of scripture where God created man and made him a living soul, comes straight out of the same event that you have declared metaphorical.
You guys are inconsistent.

If indeed it is "very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes" then where is the scientific community stepping up admitting it?
How very clear can it be if scientists seem to miss it or claim the opposite?

It appears to me that if its very clear but not acknowledged, scientists are purposely in denial.
And if they deny that which is very clear, then obviously it is not a problem for them to declare that which is not very clear as undeniable truth.

So you have a whole bunch of people, the secular scientific community, the vast majority of scientists, who deny that which is very clear and you guys take their scientific conclusions as truth?
If it is very clear and scientists don't see it...then scientists are blind.
In that case you are being led by the blind. Good luck with that.

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9064
  • Manna: 305
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3142 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 21:02:31 »
I am simply responding to the arbitrary declarations the both of you are making.
The part of scripture where God created man and made him a living soul, comes straight out of the same event that you have declared metaphorical.
You guys are inconsistent.

If indeed it is "very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes" then where is the scientific community stepping up admitting it?
How very clear can it be if scientists seem to miss it or claim the opposite?

It appears to me that if its very clear but not acknowledged, scientists are purposely in denial.
And if they deny that which is very clear, then obviously it is not a problem for them to declare that which is not very clear as undeniable truth.

So you have a whole bunch of people, the secular scientific community, the vast majority of scientists, who deny that which is very clear and you guys take their scientific conclusions as truth?
If it is very clear and scientists don't see it...then scientists are blind.
In that case you are being led by the blind. Good luck with that.


haha, yep, straw man. Good luck with that  rofl

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3143 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 21:49:13 »
Barbarian observes:
But it's very clear that neither our souls nor our spirits are the result of natural processes.

Quote
Most of your evolutionary scientific buddies claim otherwise.

Guess how I know you don't know many scientists.    In fact,  slightly more than half of us are theists of some sort, mostly Christians, Jews, or Muslims.   But even the agnostics like Gould and atheists like Dawkins readily agreed that neither soul nor spirit could be made naturally.

Quote
Are you saying that most scientists have a problem recognizing things that are very clear?

I'm suggesting that your assumptions aren't grounded in reality.


AVZ

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3144 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 22:33:42 »
Guess how I know you don't know many scientists.    In fact,  slightly more than half of us are theists of some sort, mostly Christians, Jews, or Muslims.   But even the agnostics like Gould and atheists like Dawkins readily agreed that neither soul nor spirit could be made naturally.

Simply not true.

Gould considers the issue of a "soul" a purely religious issue. He doesn't even acknowledge the presence of a thing called soul.
Dawkins is a materialist and claims the "soul" is a product of DNA.

My statement was "Most of your evolutionary scientific buddies"...
You come back with the response "slightly more than half of us are theists..."

Whether you are a theist or not has nothing to do with whether you are an evolutionist.
Look at you for example. You say you are a theist and at the same time you say you are an evolutionist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_of_evolution_by_religious_groups

Offline The Barbarian

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Manna: 140
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3145 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 23:05:53 »
Barbarian observes:
Guess how I know you don't know many scientists.    In fact,  slightly more than half of us are theists of some sort, mostly Christians, Jews, or Muslims.   But even the agnostics like Gould and atheists like Dawkins readily agreed that neither soul nor spirit could be made naturally.

Quote
Simply not true.

Absolutely true.   For example, Gould considers the issue of a "soul" a purely religious issue, not a scientific one.     

Quote
Dawkins is a materialist and claims the "soul" is a product of DNA.

Nope.   In fact, he admits that he can't be sure that God doesn't exist.   

Quote
My statement was "Most of your evolutionary scientific buddies"...
You come back with the response "slightly more than half of us are theists..."

Which, as you learned, is true.   About 99.7 percent of people with doctorates in biology accept the fact of evolution, (would you like to know how I know that?) and most of us are theists of some sort.

Quote
Look at you for example. You say you are a theist and at the same time you say you are an evolutionist.

Actually, I don't say I'm an evolutionist.   I'm just a biologist, and of course, that means I'm aware that evolution is an observed fact.

 

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2127
  • Manna: 119
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3146 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 23:28:19 »

...
We don't know for sure if animals have souls. ...

The Hebrew words for "soul" and "spirit" were used in regard to animals before they were used in regard to humans.  But given the flexibility of definitions, that tidbit is hardly probative.

Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3147 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 07:39:46 »
Questions for everyone.

Can you prove there is a soul?

Can you prove there is a spirit?

Is their scientific proof without resorting to what the bible says?

Because if any part of it would be metaphorical as Avz suggested  in.... "The part of scripture where God created man and made him a living soul, comes straight out of the same event that you have declared metaphorical,"  then I suggest that would apply to any event or verse in the Holy Book.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12717
  • Manna: 321
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3148 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 08:48:20 »
In the language of the Genesis creation account, soul is simply living being.

Gen 1:20  And God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures [Heb - nephesh], and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens."


nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.


Gen 1:24  And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures[agian HEB- nephesh] according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.

Gen 2:7  then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature [here also HEB - nephesh].


We are living creatures; we are living beings; we are living souls.

You wondered about the metaphorical.  It says in verse 7 above that God breathed into his nostrils.  Does God breath?  Is that a literal statement or figurative, i.e., metaphorical. 

It also says there that God breath into him the breath of life.  What is the breath of life?  Some, me included, take that to be the spirit of man.  In Hebrew that breath is neshamah.

neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.



In the Old Testament and the New Testament, when it speaks of a man, soul and spirit are treated almost identically and interchangeably.  Nevertheless there is a distinction to be made.

So again, is the manner in which God introduced the spirit of man into him presented in literal of figurative terms?  I say it is spoken in a figurative manner.  God does not literally breath anything  --  in or out.  Did what is figuratively described actually happen?  That is, did God actually impart into Adam and Eve their spirits?  I say yes.  It was actually done, it was figuratively described.


Ginger Rella

  • Guest
Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3149 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 09:19:20 »
In the language of the Genesis creation account, soul is simply living being.

Gen 1:20  And God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures [Heb - nephesh], and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens."


nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.


Gen 1:24  And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures[agian HEB- nephesh] according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.

Gen 2:7  then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature [here also HEB - nephesh].


We are living creatures; we are living beings; we are living souls.

You wondered about the metaphorical.  It says in verse 7 above that God breathed into his nostrils.  Does God breath?  Is that a literal statement or figurative, i.e., metaphorical. 

It also says there that God breath into him the breath of life.  What is the breath of life?  Some, me included, take that to be the spirit of man.  In Hebrew that breath is neshamah.

neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.



In the Old Testament and the New Testament, when it speaks of a man, soul and spirit are treated almost identically and interchangeably.  Nevertheless there is a distinction to be made.

So again, is the manner in which God introduced the spirit of man into him presented in literal of figurative terms?  I say it is spoken in a figurative manner.  God does not literally breath anything  --  in or out.  Did what is figuratively described actually happen?  That is, did God actually impart into Adam and Eve their spirits?  I say yes.  It was actually done, it was figuratively described.

Thank you 4WD for giving me your perceived biblical  proof.

I will disagree with you in that God is able to breath if He wishes.

I personally take

Gen 1- 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

likeness....

Cambridge dictionary

likeness
noun [ C ] US ​  /ˈlɑɪk·nəs/

a similarity:

Sandy bears a much stronger likeness to her mother than to her father.

A painting, photograph, or other representation described as a good likeness looks very similar to the person or thing it represents.

Merriam Webster dictionary

likeness noun
like·​ness | \ ˈlīk-nəs  \
Definition of likeness
1 : COPY, PORTRAIT
2 : APPEARANCE, SEMBLANCE
3 : the quality or state of being like : RESEMBLANCE

Hebrew Interlinear  says


וַיֹּ֣אמֶר      26 And said   אֱלֹהִ֔ים God נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥  let Us make   אָדָ֛ם man

בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ in Our image    כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ  according to Our likeness
[/color]

Even ancient Hebrew says likeness... BUT that is a discussion for another day and thread

We know Moses was on the Mount "hearing" God with His ears.... or are you suggesting that God communicated telepathically?

God can breath . God can do whatever He wants. Godd has no limitations.....

But if you have a problem with this concept that God breathed life into man... then you HAVE to have problems with all of the written word.

Jesus talked in parables.... so we would know that they were not true He would tell us it was a parable... but used as an example ...

But you missed an explanation of

How can you prove there is a soul or a spirit?

Say you are talking to someone ... an agnostic... who poo poos the idea when soul or spirit are mentioned , nit believing either exists and certainly not believing something written in some book (Bible) that they do not believe in....

Can science prove there is a soul or a spirit?