Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[Michael2012]

Barbarian,

I am sorry, but I find the way you respond to my post difficult to follow and so find it difficult to get what you mean. That is why you will see that I get to try different ways to compose my replies. And so I try yet another way here. But I'll have to gather first all that I think is what you have said so far. 

1. That you are a scientist and a Christian.
2. That evolution is the way existing populations of living things change and produce new kinds of living things.
3. That evolution is not about the creation of life.
4. That evolution is about the creation of life's diversity. 
5. That for you evolution is a fact and explained by a theory.
6. That the theory of evolution is consistent with scriptures.
7. That God created life, and used already-created things to bring forth new kinds.
8. That science can't even comment on God. It's too weak a method to approach the supernatural.
9. That you don't agree that the man that God formed of the earth is without life until God gave him a living spirit.   

On #2, 3: That evolution is the way existing populations of living things change and produce new kinds of living things. That evolution is not about the creation of life.

Michael:
Noted and well taken.

On #4: That evolution is about the creation of life's diversity.

Michael:
I could not agree to this. For scriptures say when God created "God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, ACCORDING TO THEIR KIND, and every winged bird ACCORDING TO ITS KIND. And God SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD" and say "God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, EACH ACCORDING TO ITS KIND”; AND IT WAS SO. And God made the beast of the earth ACCORDING TO ITS KIND, cattle ACCORDING TO ITS KIND, and everything that creeps on the earth ACCORDING TO ITS KIND. And God SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD.", and say "God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, ACCORDING to OUR LIKENESS; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

On #5: That for you evolution is a fact and explained by a theory.

Michael:
Perhaps, because you are a scientist, you have your reasons why you say it is. But I and I'd say, with the common man who does not observe what you scientist observe, have no reason to say that evolution is a fact. What we have is the word of God in scriptures. And these scriptures does not tell us that God, created the different kinds of living things by evolution.

On #6:  That the theory of evolution is consistent with scriptures.

Michael:
I don't see it to be.

On #7:  That God created life, and used already-created things to bring forth new kinds.

Michael:
I agree that God created life. But I'd say further that God created life according to its kind, as described in Genesis.

On #8: That science can't even comment on God. It's too weak a method to approach the supernatural.

Michael: Noted and well taken.

On #9: That you don't agree that the man that God formed of the earth is without life, until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

Michael:
Gen. 27 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Clearly, God first formed man of the dust of the ground. Then He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. The result, man became a living being.

Before God breathed into the nostrils of man which God had formed of the dust of the ground, is the man without life or already with life? The answer is: without life.

[The Barbarian]

I understand that the concept of evolution of life and man is yet a theory and not a fact.

Things like evolution and gravity are natural phenomena.    There are theories that explain them.   Theories are hypotheses that have been repeatedly confirmed by evidence.

And I believe that such will remain to be a theory for the longest time,

Probably so.   Evolutionary theory has been confirmed in many ways by many independent sources of evidence; it's very unlikely that it will be completely overturned by something better.    However, it is occasionally improved by additional information.   Darwin's basic theory has been changed by genetics, by neutralist theory, and by punctuated equilibrium.

Now, I'd asked this question:

Is for you, God a theory or a fact (truth)?

God is not accessible to science, so He is neither a scientific theory nor a scientific fact.   You must find God other ways.

I am a Christian, and that being, needless to say, for me God is true and is a fact. So, there goes evolution, into the trash, rendered false.

As you learned, God and His word is consistent with evolution.   Couldn't be otherwise.  He created nature, after all.

Now, some evolutionist may say:
What is your proof of God?

If he was really stupid, he might.   Science can't prove or disprove God.   

 

[The Barbarian]

 Remember, evolutionary theory is just the way scientists explain the observed fact of evolution.

[Michael2012]

Remember, evolutionary theory is just the way scientists explain the observed fact of evolution.

And I suggest that scientist keep it that way.

Remember, science can't even comment on God.

[The Barbarian]

On #4: That evolution is about the creation of life's diversity.

More correctly, evolution Is the way God created each organism according to its kind.

Michael:
I could not agree to this.

Take a look..
 Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth. [23] And the evening and morning were the fifth day. [24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth. [29] And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat: [30] And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

He doesn't say how He created them according to their kind, but the evidence shows it was by evolution.

On #5: That for you evolution is a fact and explained by a theory.

Michael:
Perhaps, because you are a scientist, you have your reasons why you say it is.

I've seen the evidence, so it's quite clear to me, as it is for almost all Christians who are scientists.

But I and I'd say, with the common man who does not observe what you scientist observe, have no reason to say that evolution is a fact.

Not knowing about something, is a disadvantage, yes.

What we have is the word of God in scriptures.

And these scriptures do not in any way deny the fact of evolution.
 

On #6:  That the theory of evolution is consistent with scriptures.

Michael:
I don't see it to be.

Doesn't matter.   The truth is what it is, regardless.    God doesn't say how He created each kind.   So it's an open question theologically.   But the evidence is compelling.   Nevertheless you are no less Christian because of your new interpretation of Genesis.   It makes no difference at all to your salvation, even if you are a YE creationist.

On #7:  That God created life, and used already-created things to bring forth new kinds.

Michael:
I agree that God created life. But I'd say further that God created life according to its kind, as described in Genesis.

Kinds.   In one sense, since all known life on Earth has more in common genetically than ways by which it differs, there is one kind.   However, God says that from that initial creation, nature produced all sorts of life, as He commanded.

On #9: That you don't agree that the man that God formed of the earth is without life, until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

It is an addition to scripture which I do not think is warranted.

 

[Michael2012]

On #4: That evolution is about the creation of life's diversity.

More correctly, evolution Is the way God created each organism according to its kind.

Michael:
I could not agree to this.

Take a look..
 Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth. [23] And the evening and morning were the fifth day. [24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth. [29] And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat: [30] And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

He doesn't say how He created them according to their kind, but the evidence shows it was by evolution.

What evidence?

Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

What evidence can you show that will prove that God created sea creatures according to their kind by evolution? 

What evidence can you show that will prove that God every winged fowl according to their kind by evolution? 

"the waters brought forth" does not mean to say that it was the waters that caused the production or creation of all the sea creatures, and of every winged fowl, or that the sea creatures and winged fowl were made out of the waters, or that evolution took place from out of the waters.

Genesis 1:22 And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth.

After God have created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind, God commanded them to "Increase and multiply", not to "evolve" further into some other kinds of living creature.

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

What evidence can you show that will prove that God created every land creatures according to their kind by evolution? 

"The earth brought forth" does not at all mean to say that it was the earth that caused the production or creation all the land creatures, or that the earth creatures were made out of the earth, or that evolution took place from out of the earth.

Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.


Clearly, what God created is man, the kind of which you and I belong. Did God created man by evolution? You say, claim and insist, that it is by evolution, and even say that this is consistent with scriptures, even while on the other hand you yourself say that scriptures doesn't say how God created.

I understand that you believe that God created the present humankind by evolution, which tells me that you now know HOW God created man. You apparently believe this, not because scriptures reveals this, but obviously because of man's scientific wisdom. That God created the first living humans, perhaps the Neandertals, or H. erectus, or what have you, which over some million years thereafter, evolved into the humankind of today. And I would wonder if the first living humans for you are Adam and Eve or that they are rather the first of them that evolved into the humankind of today.       

Scientist seems to say that creation of new kinds of living things still persist by evolution, up to the present day. After all, evolution, I understand, is taught to be a continuing process of change, and which is now turning out to be a creation method. And this tells me, in relation to evolution, that we still continue to evolve. Until when?Into what? That nobody can say, I guess.

Another thing on evolution is that, if this is a natural creation process created by God, anyone then who tampers with it, I think sins against God.

[Michael2012]

On #5: That for you evolution is a fact and explained by a theory.

Michael:
Perhaps, because you are a scientist, you have your reasons why you say it is.

I've seen the evidence, so it's quite clear to me, as it is for almost all Christians who are scientists.

You and most scientist may claim that. But certainly, the vast majority of us humans have not seen what you considered evidence. Must evolution, not be like what science call gravity, the evidence of which is seen by all humans? That sure is more than just an indication, but is evidence to the fact that evolution, especially that of the evolution of man, is something that is not observable as to even be considered to be covered by science, more so be said to be a scientific fact.   

[Amo]

On #4: That evolution is about the creation of life's diversity.

More correctly, evolution Is the way God created each organism according to its kind.

Michael:
I could not agree to this.

Take a look..
 Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth. [23] And the evening and morning were the fifth day. [24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth. [29] And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat: [30] And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

He doesn't say how He created them according to their kind, but the evidence shows it was by evolution.

What evidence?

Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

What evidence can you show that will prove that God created sea creatures according to their kind by evolution? 

What evidence can you show that will prove that God every winged fowl according to their kind by evolution? 

"the waters brought forth" does not mean to say that it was the waters that caused the production or creation of all the sea creatures, and of every winged fowl, or that the sea creatures and winged fowl were made out of the waters, or that evolution took place from out of the waters.

Genesis 1:22 And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth.

After God have created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind, God commanded them to "Increase and multiply", not to "evolve" further into some other kinds of living creature.

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

What evidence can you show that will prove that God created every land creatures according to their kind by evolution? 

"The earth brought forth" does not at all mean to say that it was the earth that caused the production or creation all the land creatures, or that the earth creatures were made out of the earth, or that evolution took place from out of the earth.

Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.


Clearly, what God created is man, the kind of which you and I belong. Did God created man by evolution? You say, claim and insist, that it is by evolution, and even say that this is consistent with scriptures, even while on the other hand you yourself say that scriptures doesn't say how God created.

I understand that you believe that God created the present humankind by evolution, which tells me that you now know HOW God created man. You apparently believe this, not because scriptures reveals this, but obviously because of man's scientific wisdom. That God created the first living humans, perhaps the Neandertals, or H. erectus, or what have you, which over some million years thereafter, evolved into the humankind of today. And I would wonder if the first living humans for you are Adam and Eve or that they are rather the first of them that evolved into the humankind of today.       

Scientist seems to say that creation of new kinds of living things still persist by evolution, up to the present day. After all, evolution, I understand, is taught to be a continuing process of change, and which is now turning out to be a creation method. And this tells me, in relation to evolution, that we still continue to evolve. Until when?Into what? That nobody can say, I guess.

Another thing on evolution is that, if this is a natural creation process created by God, anyone then who tampers with it, I think sins against God.

Michael, Barbarian believes he and others are new prophets of God who have finally evolved enough to now reveal the truth God could not reveal to us through Moses or any of the other prophets or bible writers, who apparently weren't evolved enough to do so. I'm afraid you and I simply haven't evolved enough to understand his prophecies yet. He speaks for all those whose parents are monkeys. So it is.

[Michael2012]

On #6:  That the theory of evolution is consistent with scriptures.

Michael:
I don't see it to be.

Doesn't matter.   The truth is what it is, regardless.    God doesn't say how He created each kind.   So it's an open question theologically.   But the evidence is compelling.   Nevertheless you are no less Christian because of your new interpretation of Genesis.   It makes no difference at all to your salvation, even if you are a YE creationist.

If you do not find evolution consistent with scriptures, would you believe still in the Bible? I hope so. And if you do, what would evolution be to you, being a scientist?

Now, you think that evolution is consistent with scriptures, do you think you now know HOW God created the different kinds of living creatures?

As a Christian, do you believe that creation was subjected to futility? That creation is under the bondage of corruption? That someday creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption? As a Christian scientist, how does these truths relate to what science call evolution? 

[Michael2012]

On #7:  That God created life, and used already-created things to bring forth new kinds.

Michael:
I agree that God created life. But I'd say further that God created life according to its kind, as described in Genesis.

Kinds.   In one sense, since all known life on Earth has more in common genetically than ways by which it differs, there is one kind.   However, God says that from that initial creation, nature produced all sorts of life, as He commanded.

"kinds" it is then. Sorry for the error.

Initial creation? Where do you get this? Not in scriptures, to be sure. It's coming from your scientific mind I guess.

You said "God says that from that initial creation, nature produced all sorts of life, as He commanded."

Well, that is what you say, according only to your interpretation.

[Michael2012]

On #9: That you don't agree that the man that God formed of the earth is without life, until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

It is an addition to scripture which I do not think is warranted.

Did you miss out my comment on this matter? Let me copy and paste it here so you can comment on it.

Gen. 27 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Clearly, God first formed man of the dust of the ground. Then He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. The result, man became a living being.

Before God breathed into the nostrils of man which God had formed of the dust of the ground, is the man without life or already with life? The answer is: without life.

[Michael2012]

Michael, Barbarian believes he and others are new prophets of God who have finally evolved enough to now reveal the truth God could not reveal to us through Moses or any of the other prophets or bible writers, who apparently weren't evolved enough to do so. I'm afraid you and I simply haven't evolved enough to understand his prophecies yet. He speaks for all those whose parents are monkeys. So it is.

Do you think so?

It just seems to me that by Barbarian's position on evolution, that he knows HOW God created the different kinds of living creatures, a matter which he himself said is not spelled out in scriptures.

[RB]

Job 38:3-12~"Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;"

Such arrogance.......... of man to think that he can explain the underpinnings of creation, without God. That he can date and measure the foundations of the earth without ever being there to know. And make no mistake, this is a war of religions. And we are being beaten down by repetition of this indoctrination of the Evolution religion. When we watch programs like National Geographic, Paleo world, Archaeology Today, and other one-sided presentations, eventually through repetition man is literally brainwashed concerning evolution. Because it "appears" from the information which man "continually" hears, that the world must be billions of years old, based on all the (so-called) scientific evidence. But that verse I read before, Hebrews 11:3, tells the true story. The story of which man seldom has the ear to listen. And the reason is because he has become so deceived by these teachers, that he often (sometimes unconsciously) places more faith in their words, than in what is actually written in scripture itself. And that is nothing but unbelief. Especially with the new breed of post modern Theologians who have effectively been raised up under this constant indoctrination. Many have lost their faith in God's word, and gained a new faith in man's Religion of self. So while many professing Christians continue to claim that they have every bit as much faith in God's word as we do, in practice they prove otherwise by being led away in this error, and seeking to rationalize it away "because" of the new ideas that the evolutionists have put forth.

2nd Peter 3:16-18~"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

We are exhorted to watch for the errors and false ideas of men in Christ's name, that we are not led astray by them. But Theologians today seem to think that there can be no errors of teaching, and we can question everything in scripture, each one of us interpreting personally or privately to suit whatever the scientists declare is true. But in doing so, we fall from our own stedfastness in the faith of the gospel. We must be diligent, careful not to become corrupted and unbelieving wherein we have our mind and conscience defiled. For then we will be professing we know God, while in works denying him. Remember, Christ said, "A tree is known by its fruits." Can men have faith in God's word, and yet every time man says it cannot be literally true, they start looking around to find what else it could possibly mean besides what it said? Isn't that the very essence of putting faith in man's word over God? We can call it Theistic Evolution, Progressive Evolution, Evolutionary Creation, Christian Intellectualism, or any other name, but changing the title doesn't make it a new phenomenon. It's the same old worldly non-belief that has plagued the Church since the beginning. Beware and take heed!

[RB]

2nd Corinthians 4:13~"We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;"

We believe because we have the spirit of faith, which is the faith of Christ. I've actually had professed Christians ask me, "how can you believe that it was done in 6 literal days, do you doubt that the stars are so far out in space the light would take hundreds of thousands of years to reach here?" My answer surprises them. "No, I don't doubt that!" But what they are failing to understand is the power of the God who could created this universe. He didn't throw a speck of light out there and kick back waiting a billion years for that light to reach earth before continuing. That's nonsense. If He is powerful enough to create and put that light millions of light years out into space, why is He not deemed powerful enough to have it reach here just as quickly? What kind of God are we talking about? An impotent God, or THE Almighty Omnipotent God? The fact is, God simply said, "Let there be light..." and there was! And when He created light from the stars to the earth, it was upon the earth instantly! It didn't take a million years, it was created 'in transit' instantly. The power to say and have it be, this is the power of The TRUE GOD of the holy scriptures, not the pseudo paper god that man invents. I find it absolutely astounding that someone calling themselves Christian (Supposedly knowing the power of God) would think that this type of creation power was unlikely, or hard to believe. Is God a man, or is He the Almighty? It's the very same way God created a mature human instantly (Adam), who was instantly capable of making mature decisions the very "day" he was created. God didn't create a tiny baby and wait years and years until Adam grew to be a man, He created a grown man, already mature, from the very dust of the earth. It didn't take Him 18 to 21 years to have Adam become a man. He did it in one day. And again, note carefully for those nay-sayers asking why would God create the appearance of a mature earth, Adam may have also "appeared" (Hebrews 11:3) to be many years old, but that appearance had absolutely no basis in fact about his actual age, did it? An Omnipotent God doesn't follow the laws of the universe, He creates them! They follow the patterns and courses that He has set, not vise versa. And that is what these man does not seem to fully comprehend.

Genesis 2:7-8~"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

So are we believers, or are we suffering from the unbelief of the world? Did man form by evolution from an ape, or on the sixth day, did God form man out of the dust of the earth, and then breathe the breath of life into him? I guess the answer we give all depends on what religion we subscribe to, and whom we put our faith in. If we practice the religion of man, who serves himself as the authority and ruler, then we will put our trust in the words of our god. And we will serve in his temple in lawlessness. On the other hand, if we practice the religion of true Christianity, then we will follow the laws of God, and put our trust in the words of our God, and will serve Him in His temple. So every Christian, in the Spirit of Christ, must finally decide whom he will serve. Not by what appears to be in our own eyes, but by what God says.

Proverbs 16:2~  "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits."

Sinful man is in love with himself, and has been from the beginning. And self-flattery is the universal sin of the humanist in this vanity. For he is unable to comprehend the miracle of God, and the infallible nature of His word. Like the earth, Adam was created mature. Indeed, if it were possible that the scientists today could go back in time with all their sophisticated toys and examine Adam on the very day of his creation, they would most assuredly proclaim in scientific bliss that Adam was definitely and scientifically irrefutably well over the age of one day. Yet they would be wrong, wouldn't they? Because God created Adam from the dust with the appearance and workings of age, while in "truth" he was actually only one day old. Not by what would appear to be in the eyes of man, but by what was accurate and written as God's undefiled declarations. In order that man is not confused, God told us that He created man on one day, which was one period of evening and morning. The question is, do we believe Him? As it is written, "..yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings.."

Because of this indoctrination, everyone isn't aware that scientific fact and evolutionary theories are not synonymous. These scientists make untenable claims and invalidated assumptions, and man simply accepts them as their gospel. Like the theory that everything evolved from single cell organisms. These things in themselves are as faith based as any belief that true Christians have. Especially given the very scientific laws, which they claim to be following. How this single cell just started duplicating itself, becoming both male and female over the years, mutating each version of itself, yet holding and surviving in a hostile environment, is the stuff of science fiction, not science. We would expect the world to be deceived by these theories, but what is truly disturbing is the lengths that the Church has been snared by this delusion. So much so that it is slowly but surely falling from the faith. From the Biblical perspective, it is totally contrary to scripture. So how can they believe this mutation theory, when God says He created Woman from a rib of Adam. Did she evolve from Adam or was she created from a rib? Again, it depends on if we are going to believe God, or believe man. Do we believe the scriptures, or do we instead believe the scientific journals. Do we believe the word of God that Adam was created a man, or man in saying he started out a single cell organism? Do we privately interpret the scriptures according to each new theory the scientists propagate, or do we let God be the interpreter of His own word? These are the questions that Christians of old answered unequivocally, unwaveringly, and confidently, but that today has them curiously scratching their collective heads, and wondering where is truth.

Genesis 2:21-23~"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

If Adam was a blob of cell matter, why did he need to sleep so God could open him up and take his rib? Did God actually cause a deep sleep to fall upon a single cell organism to create a female version? Is the Bible all just a fable, or some fairy tale that God made up to as a bedtime story for Christians? God forbid, this is the absolute truth of God's word. The Agnostics, Atheists and Humanists call it a fable, but God declares that this is what He actually did. God's people trusted God's word concerning this for thousands and thousands of years. Only now, in our day of the rise of the Religion of evolution, are many of the Church looking at God's word as just a tall tale or an allegory that we never got around to interpreting. Our Lord tells all his faithful Prophets for thousands of years that He made the universe in six days, and since creation they accepted and believed it as literally six days. But now, in this time of growing wanton wickedness, we are supposed to believe that righteous God is revealing this secret to evolutionary scientists, who for the most part aren't even Christian? What is wrong with this picture? The truth is, man has become so smart (in his own eyes) in his own worldly knowledge, that he figures he can rule himself and exalt himself up to God-like status to know the secrets of creation. And the Church, departing from the faith, falls right in line by privately interpreting God's word in a way which is tortuous and self serving, in order to conform with these modern ideas.

[The Barbarian]

Michael, Barbarian believes he and others are new prophets of God

I have no idea how you could make that up from what I've said.   

who have finally evolved enough to now reveal the truth God could not reveal to us through Moses or any of the other prophets or bible writers, who apparently weren't evolved enough to do so.

You still don't get it.  All things are possible with God.   That doesn't mean He can't do things He hasn't done.   Since He didn't give us the details on how he brought forth new species, it clearly isn't important to the message He's giving us in the Bible.   That should be good enough for you.

If he chose not to tell us that, it's better for you not to add it to scripture.    Let Him be God, and decide what is important.

 

[The Barbarian]

It just seems to me that by Barbarian's position on evolution, that he knows HOW God created the different kinds of living creatures, a matter which he himself said is not spelled out in scriptures.

Some things God left for us to find out for ourselves.   How the diversity of life was created by Him, that's one of those things.    It's not spelled out in scripture, because it's not something He deemed important to our salvation.

[The Barbarian]

We believe because we have the spirit of faith, which is the faith of Christ. I've actually had professed Christians ask me, "how can you believe that it was done in 6 literal days, do you doubt that the stars are so far out in space the light would take hundreds of thousands of years to reach here?" My answer surprises them. "No, I don't doubt that!" But what they are failing to understand is the power of the God who could created this universe. He didn't throw a speck of light out there and kick back waiting a billion years for that light to reach earth before continuing. That's nonsense. If He is powerful enough to create and put that light millions of light years out into space, why is He not deemed powerful enough to have it reach here just as quickly? What kind of God are we talking about? An impotent God, or THE Almighty Omnipotent God?

This is a tempting argument for someone who would like to maintain YE creationism in spite of theological and practical problems with it.   

However, it has numerous flaws.   One notable flaw is this:  If He made light faster back in the day, it would have all sorts of consequences.   Radioactive decay, for example, is tied to the speed of light.   If it was significantly faster at one time, all life on Earth would have been fried by a huge increase in ionizing radiation. 

If He created light on the way to the Earth, then we have images of stars exploding that never existed.   Both of these imply that God is intentionally deceptive.   Which is also a huge theological problem for a Christian.

So it's easier and wiser to just accept creation as He did it.

[Michael2012]

It just seems to me that by Barbarian's position on evolution, that he knows HOW God created the different kinds of living creatures, a matter which he himself said is not spelled out in scriptures.

Some things God left for us to find out for ourselves.   How the diversity of life was created by Him, that's one of those things.    It's not spelled out in scripture, because it's not something He deemed important to our salvation.

The subject matter at hand is HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures. It concerns the supernatural divine act of God that we are talking about here. And this you claim to know HOW and can now explain HOW.

<<It's not spelled out in scripture, because it's not something He deemed important to our salvation.>>

So why bother putting and spending so much time, money, and effort in trying to know the HOW? We learn from God and follow His lead. God knows what's good for us.   

Consider and meditate on the following:

Heb.11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Leave plenty of room for faith. For the more you have it, the more you can please God. 

[The Barbarian]

The subject matter at hand is HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures.

He doesn't say how in scripture, but He did leave plenty of evidence, showing us how He did it.   Would you like to learn a little about how we know?

It concerns the supernatural divine act of God that we are talking about here.

As He says in Genesis, He used nature to do that.   

And this you claim to know HOW and can now explain HOW.

We are learning more and more about it.   As you probably realize, it doesn't matter to our salvation, but it's accessible to anyone who wants to go look.

 

So why bother putting and spending so much time, money, and effort in trying to know the HOW?

Because it's worth knowing.   For two reasons.   One, it's of considerable practical use, and has (for example) medical applications.   Two, it can give you a richer and more complete understanding of God.   This is what St. Paul meant when he spoke of those invisible things, clearly seen.


 

[Michael2012]

The subject matter at hand is HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures.

He doesn't say how in scripture, but He did leave plenty of evidence, showing us how He did it.   Would you like to learn a little about how we know?

It's clear enough, scripture don't say every detail of HOW.

Very well then, give us a little about what you say How you know it, as you please. 

It concerns the supernatural divine act of God that we are talking about here.

As He says in Genesis, He used nature to do that. 

And that's not exactly what God said. Rather, I think, it's the scientist mind and eyes in you that understands and sees it that way.

I don't understand and see it that way. What faith tells me and let me understand, is that God created everything by His word, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. And that God did so, by Christ, through Him and for Him, and that in Him all things consist.

And as much as God did not say the details of HOW He did that, I accept to be a humble, wise and good thing not to spend my time, money, and effort in trying to know something that obviously God deemed wise and good not to tell us.

And this you claim to know HOW and can now explain HOW.

We are learning more and more about it.   As you probably realize, it doesn't matter to our salvation, but it's accessible to anyone who wants to go look.

You think you are, would be the more accurate thing to say. Besides, while you say that, even now, you claim to know HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures. And there is no need to justify it Barbarian. It won't change what it is you claim.

So why bother putting and spending so much time, money, and effort in trying to know the HOW?

Because it's worth knowing.   For two reasons.   One, it's of considerable practical use, and has (for example) medical applications.   Two, it can give you a richer and more complete understanding of God.   This is what St. Paul meant when he spoke of those invisible things, clearly seen.

For what it's worth, then it is for you. As for me, I take this matter of HOW God created all things, by faith and in faith. As it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

And looking at what Paul meant in Rom. 1:20, what invisible things Paul there refers to, refers to God's invisible attributes, not anything else. These is what Paul says are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. Paul clearly points to WHAT things God have made, and not to HOW God made things.

Now, if you want and seek for a richer and more complete understanding of God, look nowhere else, but to Jesus. For in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,  and Jesus is the express image of God, the exact representation of his being. Nothing, not even a billion amount of science can offer and give you a richer and more complete understanding of God. It seems to me that you are one among those who have been deceived into believing that science can.

[RB]

This is a tempting argument for someone who would like to maintain YE creationism in spite of theological and practical problems with it.

No theological problem sir, none whatsoever. Neither are there practical problems since his true children refuse to put God in a box and limit him to our ability to reason and think, which men like you do, and must do to convinced yourself and others that you are wise~ wiser than simple-minded believers who LOOK to the scriptures for their answers and not to men who refuse to come to the word of God as little children and be taught by the Spirit of the Living God....that's BELOW THEM and their high opinion of themselves.

However, it has numerous flaws.   One notable flaw is this:  If He made light faster back in the day, it would have all sorts of consequences.

Flaws ONLY with men like you, who have been corrupted by their own high opinion of themselves. Again, do you truly believe that God is limited to do anything differently than man has come to understand how such things work? So YES, God purposed light to just be there and IT WAS, no problem whatsoever. With God NOTHING is impossible, do you believe that? If not, then we must not deceive ourselves into believing that we know the God of the holy scriptures.

If He made light faster back in the day, it would have all sorts of consequences.

God has never and will never be faced with any consequences, he rules nature and determines its laws, which laws he is NOT subject to, for with him NOTHING is impossible...he controls all and uses them for his own purpose and glory.

Radioactive decay, for example, is tied to the speed of light.

Not with God, and it would be foolish to think so and a sign of us creating a god after our own imagination which is what most do btw. True believers look to the SCRIPTURES for all answer and they are there that is PROFITABLE!

2nd Timothy 3:16,17~All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

If it was significantly faster at one time, all life on Earth would have been fried by a huge increase in ionizing radiation. 

Only at creation, and during the creation of the earth and all things therein, God WAS NOT subject to any laws that man may THINKS he understands.

If He created light on the way to the Earth, then we have images of stars exploding that never existed.   Both of these imply that God is intentionally deceptive.   Which is also a huge theological problem for a Christian.

Again you are putting the god of your imagination into a very small box that you and others have built for your god. The God of the Christians do not believe that his power is limited~ it is only limited by our pitiful and limited faith and understanding, because we know SO LITTLE of his greatness and power, and others know less who do not trust the scriptures above all of the wisdom of man!

Job 36:26~"Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out."

Sir, if you can search out the years of God, then maybe you could learn a little more of his greatness~but that will never happen, for it is beyond our power to do so.  Read Job from chapter 32-to the end! It should humble all of us when we begin to think we know about God when in truth, we know so little of his greatness.

So it's easier and wiser to just accept creation as He did it.

That's why I believe in Genesis one and two concerning God creating the earth in SIX LITERAL DAYS~even though he could have done everything in a twinkling of an eye just as quick as the resurrection shall take place in the last day.

[The Barbarian]

And that's not exactly what God said.

Gravity isn't exactly what God said, either.   God didn't tell us about everything.   The important thing is that science and scripture do not contradict each other.

Rather, I think, it's the scientist mind and eyes in you that understands and sees it that way.

Actually, I'm speaking as a Christian here.   I'm merely showing you how the world does not in any way contradict His word.

I don't understand and see it that way.

You don't have to.   It won't affect your salvation, unless you make an idol of creationism.    But if you learn more about His creation, it can't help but make you closer to Him.

And as much as God did not say the details of HOW He did that, I accept to be a humble, wise and good thing not to spend my time, money, and effort in trying to know something that obviously God deemed wise and good not to tell us.

God gave you a mind and curiosity for a purpose.   If we didn't have those, we'd still be living in caves wearing animal skins.
 
Barbarian observes:
We are learning more and more about it.   As you probably realize, it doesn't matter to our salvation, but it's accessible to anyone who wants to go look.

You think you are, would be the more accurate thing to say.

Easy way to check.   Does our understanding of nature help us get along in the world?    Yes, it does.   For example, the same knowledge that confirmed Darwin's theory tells us how to make computers out of dirt.

Besides, while you say that, even now, you claim to know HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures.

Yes, it's very clear how that happened, and getting clearer all the time.  He uses nature for almost everything in this world, and He made it knowable for us, so that we could get along in His world. 

 

So why bother putting and spending so much time, money, and effort in trying to know the HOW?

Barbarian explains:
Because it's worth knowing.   For two reasons.   One, it's of considerable practical use, and has (for example) medical applications.   Two, it can give you a richer and more complete understanding of God.   This is what St. Paul meant when he spoke of those invisible things, clearly seen.

For what it's worth, then it is for you. As for me, I take this matter of HOW God created all things, by faith and in faith. As it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Which is sufficient.   I'm just pointing out that a deeper understanding of His creation will enrich your faith.

And looking at what Paul meant in Rom. 1:20, what invisible things Paul there refers to, refers to God's invisible attributes, not anything else.

No.  Let's take another look...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.  (my emphasis)


Paul says that the invisible things of God, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen.    In His creation, if you are willing to set aside pride and preconceptions, you can see the power and divinity of God.   

These is what Paul says are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. Paul clearly points to WHAT things God has made, and not to HOW God made things.

God is telling you something very important here.   Listen to Him.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
This is a tempting argument for someone who would like to maintain YE creationism in spite of theological and practical problems with it.

No theological problem sir, none whatsoever.

Huge problems.    For example, the issue of mornings and evenings with no Sun to have them.  But definition, a logical absurdity.

Neither are there practical problems since his true children refuse to put God in a box and limit him to our ability to reason and think

Hence YE creationists, who have convinced themselves that they are wise, wiser than traditional Christians who accept God's word as it is.   Their high opinion of themselves is not sufficient for us to abandon scripture.

However, it has numerous flaws.   One notable flaw is this:  If He made light faster back in the day, it would have all sorts of consequences.    Radioactive decay, for example, is tied to the speed of light.      If it was significantly faster at one time, all life on Earth would have been fried by a huge increase in ionizing radiation. 

Flaws ONLY with men like you, who have been corrupted by their own high opinion of themselves. Again, do you truly believe that God is limited to do anything differently than man has come to understand how such things work? So YES, God purposed light to just be there and IT WAS, no problem whatsoever. With God NOTHING is impossible, do you believe that?

Your difficulty here is that although God could have miraculously set aside everything He ordained in this world to make your story true, it is a very bad idea to suppose that the answer to every flaw is to imagine a new, non-scriptural miracle.   Once you start doing that, any story is equally plausible.   

No, that's not where you want to go, if you care about truth.

Barbarian observes:
If He created light on the way to the Earth, then we have images of stars exploding that never existed.   Both of these imply that God is intentionally deceptive.   Which is also a huge theological problem for a Christian.

Again you are putting the god of your imagination into a very small box that you and others have built for your god.

My God is truth.     There is no deception in Him, or by Him.   He will not deceive us. 

The God of the Christians do not believe that his power is limited

It is His nature.   And his truthfulness is not a limitation.
 
So it's easier and wiser to just accept creation as He did it.

That's why I believe in Genesis one and two concerning God creating the earth in SIX LITERAL DAYS

But, of course, it doesn't say six literal days.   That's a modern revision to His word.
 

[Michael2012]

And that's not exactly what God said.

Gravity isn't exactly what God said, either.   God didn't tell us about everything.   The important thing is that science and scripture do not contradict each other.

That's right, God didn't tell us about everything. And scriptures did not say that God used nature to create the different kinds of living creatures. What scriptures says is that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Rather, I think, it's the scientist mind and eyes in you that understands and sees it that way.

Actually, I'm speaking as a Christian here.   I'm merely showing you how the world does not in any way contradict His word.

I'm sorry to say that you have not. At least as pertains to God creating the different kinds of living things by using nature, called perhaps "creation by evolution". To the contrary, I find what you teach as contrary to scriptures which says the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

I don't understand and see it that way.

You don't have to.   It won't affect your salvation, unless you make an idol of creationism.    But if you learn more about His creation, it can't help but make you closer to Him.

I don't understand and see that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution. And sure this matter does not affect salvation. But it sure does affect the truth written in scriptures. If not, I would not have this discussion with you.

And as much as God did not say the details of HOW He did that, I accept to be a humble, wise and good thing not to spend my time, money, and effort in trying to know something that obviously God deemed wise and good not to tell us.

God gave you a mind and curiosity for a purpose.   If we didn't have those, we'd still be living in caves wearing animal skins.
 
Barbarian observes:
We are learning more and more about it.   As you probably realize, it doesn't matter to our salvation, but it's accessible to anyone who wants to go look.

It's your opinion that "God gave you a mind and curiosity for a purpose.   If we didn't have those, we'd still be living in caves wearing animal skins". And it does not justify nor prove that God did indeed create the different kinds of living things by evolution.

You and other scientist believes and claim to be learning more and more about the evolution of living things, to which the Christian scientist claim to be HOW God created the different kinds of living things. But as for the vast majority of men, this is not so. And not even more so for the Christians.

You think you are, would be the more accurate thing to say.

Easy way to check.   Does our understanding of nature help us get along in the world?    Yes, it does.   For example, the same knowledge that confirmed Darwin's theory tells us how to make computers out of dirt.

And that is not at all the issue here. The issue is what you teach that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution.

Besides, while you say that, even now, you claim to know HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures.

Yes, it's very clear how that happened, and getting clearer all the time.  He uses nature for almost everything in this world, and He made it knowable for us, so that we could get along in His world.

That's what you believe, I can see that. And I guess it will be that way for you. So, perhaps, I'll just have to take note of that, that Barbarian knows HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures, that is by evolution. This belief renders God as to not have completed, to this day, the creation of the different kinds of living things. When do you guess it will be accomplished by God? Any hypothesis, or perhaps, a theory on this?

So why bother putting and spending so much time, money, and effort in trying to know the HOW?

Barbarian explains:
Because it's worth knowing.   For two reasons.   One, it's of considerable practical use, and has (for example) medical applications.   Two, it can give you a richer and more complete understanding of God.   This is what St. Paul meant when he spoke of those invisible things, clearly seen.

For what it's worth, then it is for you. As for me, I take this matter of HOW God created all things, by faith and in faith. As it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Which is sufficient.   I'm just pointing out that a deeper understanding of His creation will enrich your faith.

If that's what you are pointing, then no problem. But as it is, what you really are getting at is not understanding what has been created, but that of the matter of HOW you think that God created the different kinds of living creatures. You think that man can go that distance as to be able to know the details of HOW the divine God created the universe. And this, more often than not, is what brings most scientist to not believing in a creator, that is, God. For by science, he believes that everything can be explained by man, and even others perhaps believes that he can one day not only know but even can himself create other life forms, can travel at the speed of light, can go back in time, can control the weather, can read the mind of another, can make things move by the power of his mind, can stop aging, can cure every kind of disease, and a lot of other incredible things he can think of. If man is able to do all that, then the evolutionist Christian even may say that man has evolved to be a super human being, and have gotten more closer to God, even closer to being like God, or further still, closer to being a god.

And looking at what Paul meant in Rom. 1:20, what invisible things Paul there refers to, refers to God's invisible attributes, not anything else.

No.  Let's take another look...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.  (my emphasis)


Paul says that the invisible things of God, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen.    In His creation, if you are willing to set aside pride and preconceptions, you can see the power and divinity of God.   

These, is what Paul says are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. Paul clearly points to WHAT things God has made, and not to HOW God made things.

God is telling you something very important here.   Listen to Him.

Yes, Paul said that God's invisible qualities are seen. Where? In the things made - the WHAT have been created.

And here's what God is saying in scriptures, listen to Him.

Romans 1:19-20 [EMPHASIS MINE]
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

In my previous post, I said:

Now, if you want and seek for a richer and more complete understanding of God, look nowhere else, but to Jesus. For in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,  and Jesus is the express image of God, the exact representation of his being. Nothing, not even a billion amount of science can offer and give you a richer and more complete understanding of God. It seems to me that you are one among those who have been deceived into believing that science can.

You have commented on every simple statement I made, yet seemingly, you have not on this, I'd say, more important portion. Anything you want to comment on this?

[Amo]

https://www.isgenesishistory.com/

Just watched the movie on Amazon. Good stuff.

[The Barbarian]

That's right, God didn't tell us about everything. And scriptures did not say that God used nature to create the different kinds of living creatures.

That's not debatable; He did:
Gen. 1:11 And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done.

Gen. 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

Rather, I think, it's the scientist mind and eyes in you that understands and sees it that way.

Barbarian observes:
Actually, I'm speaking as a Christian here.   I'm merely showing you how the world does not in any way contradict His word.

I'm sorry to say that you have not.

See above.   That's what God said.   Why not just accept it His way?

I don't understand and see it that way.

Barbarian observes:
You don't have to.   It won't affect your salvation, unless you make an idol of creationism.    But if you learn more about His creation, it can't help but make you closer to Him.

I don't understand and see that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution.

You don't have to.   It won't affect your salvation, so long as you don't make an idol of creationism, and claim that it's required for all Christians to believe it.

And sure this matter does not affect salvation. But it sure does affect the truth written in scriptures. If not, I would not have this discussion with you.

I'm pleased that you understand this.     Some creationists make creationism a stumbling block for unbelievers who might otherwise come to Him.

 

It's your opinion that "God gave you a mind and curiosity for a purpose.   If we didn't have those, we'd still be living in caves wearing animal skins". And it does not justify nor prove that God did indeed create the different kinds of living things by evolution.

It merely shows that God expects us to use our minds to learn about His creation.   And that includes the way He used nature to produce the diversity of life on Earth.

You and other scientist believes and claim to be learning more and more about the evolution of living things, to which the Christian scientist claim to be HOW God created the different kinds of living things.

Yes, this is the case.  This is why the vast majority of Christians acknowledge that evolution is consistent with our faith in God.

But as for the vast majority of men, this is not so. And not even more so for the Christians.

No, that's wrong.   Slightly more than half of the world's Christians are Roman Catholics, or churches in union with them.    The next largest are the Eastern Orthodox Christians.    Both acknowledge that creation is consistent with evolution.    So do the various Anglican churches, and all but one group of Lutheran churches, and many, many others.

Barbarian observes:
Easy way to check.   Does our understanding of nature help us get along in the world?    Yes, it does.   For example, the same knowledge that confirmed Darwin's theory tells us how to make computers out of dirt.

And that is not at all the issue here. The issue is what you teach that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution.

So He tells us in His creation.
 

That's what you believe, I can see that. And I guess it will be that way for you. So, perhaps, I'll just have to take note of that, that Barbarian knows HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures, that is by evolution. This belief renders God as to not have completed, to this day, the creation of the different kinds of living things. When do you guess it will be accomplished by God? Any hypothesis, or perhaps, a theory on this?

Do you believe God created you?  When do you suppose He'll stop creating people.   Any hypothesis, or perhaps, a theory on this?   Or are you not a creature of God?
 

But as it is, what you really are getting at is not understanding what has been created, but that of the matter of HOW you think that God created the different kinds of living creatures. You think that man can go that distance as to be able to know the details of HOW the divine God created the universe. And this, more often than not, is what brings most scientist to not believing in a creator, that is, God.

Doesn't seem very likely.  For example, Francis Collins, who directed the Human Genome Project, is a devout evangelical Christian, and acknowledges the fact of evolution.

For by science, he believes that everything can be explained by man,

You're confusing the material world with "everything."    Science is limited to the physical universe.    By definition, it can't know anything beyond nature.   Fortunately, scientists can.

and even others perhaps believes that he can one day not only know but even can himself create other life forms, can travel at the speed of light, can go back in time, can control the weather, can read the mind of another, can make things move by the power of his mind, can stop aging, can cure every kind of disease, and a lot of other incredible things he can think of.

If we could do all that, and someday we might, what would that mean to our relationship with God?   I don't see that it would change at all.

If man is able to do all that, then the evolutionist Christian even may say that man has evolved to be a super human being, and have gotten more closer to God, even closer to being like God, or further still, closer to being a god.

You misunderstand what God meant when he said we had become like Him.   That is not what He meant.   

 Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.   

Paul says that the invisible things of God, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen.    In His creation, if you are willing to set aside pride and preconceptions, you can see the power and divinity of God.   

 God is telling you something very important here.   Listen to Him.
 
 

Now, if you want and seek for a richer and more complete understanding of God, look nowhere else, but to Jesus. For in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,  and Jesus is the express image of God, the exact representation of his being. Nothing, not even a billion amount of science can offer and give you a richer and more complete understanding of God. It seems to me that you are one among those who have been deceived into believing that science can.

I already explained to you that science can't do that.    You're expecting it to be something it can never be.   It is limited to the physical universe.   Yes, if you understand more about His creation, it can make you closer to Him.   But science won't do it for you.   But I'll repeat it one more time.




 

[Jaime]

The earth bringing forth creatures AFTER THEIR OWN KIND, is a God designed plan, not the earth doing the creating. THAT is not debatable. Soil does not create corn. That is done because the SEEDS bring forth after its own kind, by a pre-programed formula input by God, not the earth. Giraffes breed and produce offspring giraffes after the oarents kind. Not because of the earth, but because of God hand and design.

[The Barbarian]

The earth bringing forth creatures AFTER THEIR OWN KIND, is a God designed plan, not the earth doing the creating.

Of course.   God created all things.   He just used nature to create the diversity of life we see.    My inclination is that attributing "design" to God is giving Him less credit than an omnipotent Creator deserves.    The IDers suggest that the "designer" might be "a space alien."    I don't think so.

THAT is not debatable.

Right.

Soil does not create corn.

Yeah, the direct bringing forth of a complex eukaryotic organism would be contrary to what we see in the fossil record and genetic data.   Primitive life first developing and later evolving into eukaryotes, would be more consistent with the evidence (and also consistent with scripture).

That is done because the SEEDS bring forth after its own kind, by a pre-programed formula input by God, not the earth.

God has no need to "program."   He built the capacity for living things to evolve into the very fabric of life.    One of the great engineering discoveries of the 21st century was that evolutionary processes work better than design for complex problems.   Genetic algorithms, using evolutionary processes of random variation and natural selection, are increasingly being used to fine-tune processes and machines.  God is wiser than we suspected.

Giraffes breed and produce offspring giraffes after the oarents kind.

Modern giraffes are quite a bit different than those of earlier times.   They diversified in the great ungulate radiation, and there are still several living branches, some of them relatively primitive compared to African giraffes.    The actual reason for the unusual adaptations of modern giraffes is kind interesting.    Like deer antlers, it turns out that neck length is allometric in giraffes, and only later became adaptive.    Would you like to see what we know about it?

Not because of the earth, but because of God hand and design.

"Design" is what limited creatures must do, because we can't truly create.   

[geronimo]

Hey guys,
 I don't belong in this conversation/discussion, but do have a question. Maybe just a simple answer, but I wonder.
 Creation is a fact I'd say to everyone on this board, and without creation, evolution is a non issue. I just wonder if it weren't for evolution, could/would creation have survived oh these many years.
 The question is, why must they be mutually exclusive?
  Thanks and blessings.

[Michael2012]

That's right, God didn't tell us about everything. And scriptures did not say that God used nature to create the different kinds of living creatures.

That's not debatable; He did:
Gen. 1:11 And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done.

Gen. 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

Well then, we just then have to agree to disagree on this then.

Rather, I think, it's the scientist mind and eyes in you that understands and sees it that way.

Barbarian observes:
Actually, I'm speaking as a Christian here.   I'm merely showing you how the world does not in any way contradict His word.

I'm sorry to say that you have not.

See above.   That's what God said.   Why not just accept it His way?

As I have said above, we just then have to agree to disagree on this then.

I don't understand and see it that way.

Barbarian observes:
You don't have to.   It won't affect your salvation, unless you make an idol of creationism.    But if you learn more about His creation, it can't help but make you closer to Him.

I don't understand and see that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution.

You don't have to.   It won't affect your salvation, so long as you don't make an idol of creationism, and claim that it's required for all Christians to believe it.

And sure this matter does not affect salvation. But it sure does affect the truth written in scriptures. If not, I would not have this discussion with you.

I'm pleased that you understand this.     Some creationists make creationism a stumbling block for unbelievers who might otherwise come to Him.

I'm glad you're pleased.

It's your opinion that "God gave you a mind and curiosity for a purpose.   If we didn't have those, we'd still be living in caves wearing animal skins". And it does not justify nor prove that God did indeed create the different kinds of living things by evolution.

It merely shows that God expects us to use our minds to learn about His creation.   And that includes the way He used nature to produce the diversity of life on Earth.

You and other scientist believes and claim to be learning more and more about the evolution of living things, to which the Christian scientist claim to be HOW God created the different kinds of living things.

Yes, this is the case.  This is why the vast majority of Christians acknowledge that evolution is consistent with our faith in God.

But as for the vast majority of men, this is not so. And not even more so for the Christians.

No, that's wrong.   Slightly more than half of the world's Christians are Roman Catholics, or churches in union with them.    The next largest are the Eastern Orthodox Christians.    Both acknowledge that creation is consistent with evolution.    So do the various Anglican churches, and all but one group of Lutheran churches, and many, many others.

Can you provide proof that the vast majority of Christians acknowledge that evolution is consistent with our faith in God, or with the scriptures, and that creation is consistent with evolution?

Barbarian observes:
Easy way to check.   Does our understanding of nature help us get along in the world?    Yes, it does.   For example, the same knowledge that confirmed Darwin's theory tells us how to make computers out of dirt.

And that is not at all the issue here. The issue is what you teach that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution.

So He tells us in His creation.
 

That's what you believe, I can see that. And I guess it will be that way for you. So, perhaps, I'll just have to take note of that, that Barbarian knows HOW the supernatural divine God CREATED the different kinds of living creatures, that is by evolution. This belief renders God as to not have completed, to this day, the creation of the different kinds of living things. When do you guess it will be accomplished by God? Any hypothesis, or perhaps, a theory on this?

Do you believe God created you?  When do you suppose He'll stop creating people.   Any hypothesis, or perhaps, a theory on this?   Or are you not a creature of God?

What you say here does not address the issue Barbarian. Procreation or the matter of begetting, generation and production, is different from the matter of creation by evolution, specifically that, of the creation of new kinds of living things.

I can see that the Christian scientist have had yet to make an hypothesis on the matter as to when God will complete the creation of the different kinds of living things, or when this ever continuing creation of different kinds of living things by evolution is accomplished by God and ends.

But as it is, what you really are getting at is not understanding what has been created, but that of the matter of HOW you think that God created the different kinds of living creatures. You think that man can go that distance as to be able to know the details of HOW the divine God created the universe. And this, more often than not, is what brings most scientist to not believing in a creator, that is, God.

Doesn't seem very likely.  For example, Francis Collins, who directed the Human Genome Project, is a devout evangelical Christian, and acknowledges the fact of evolution.

But Francis Collins is but one scientist, and is not all of the scientist. Besides, Francis Collins may well be a devout evangelical Christian, but I think that he acknowledges the evolution, not because of that, but because he is a scientist.

For by science, he believes that everything can be explained by man,

You're confusing the material world with "everything."    Science is limited to the physical universe.    By definition, it can't know anything beyond nature.   Fortunately, scientists can.

And by "everything", I mean to refer to that which science is limited with, as you say, the physical universe.

And let me add, not only science can't know anything beyond nature, nor could a any man for that matter, not even the scientists can. Yet science and scientists speaks of things such as the origin of life, which is a thing beyond nature and is not of the physical.

and even others perhaps believes that he can one day not only know but even can himself create other life forms, can travel at the speed of light, can go back in time, can control the weather, can read the mind of another, can make things move by the power of his mind, can stop aging, can cure every kind of disease, and a lot of other incredible things he can think of.

If we could do all that, and someday we might, what would that mean to our relationship with God?   I don't see that it would change at all.

That's what you say.

If man is able to do all that, then the evolutionist Christian even may say that man has evolved to be a super human being, and have gotten more closer to God, even closer to being like God, or further still, closer to being a god.

You misunderstand what God meant when he said we had become like Him.   That is not what He meant.

No, what I said there is a comment in relation to what you said in the matter of getting closer to God in relation to knowing His creation, with regards evolution. And my comment is not in any way, shape or form, about what God meant when He said we had become like Him.

Now, if you want and seek for a richer and more complete understanding of God, look nowhere else, but to Jesus. For in Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,  and Jesus is the express image of God, the exact representation of his being. Nothing, not even a billion amount of science can offer and give you a richer and more complete understanding of God. It seems to me that you are one among those who have been deceived into believing that science can.

I already explained to you that science can't do that.    You're expecting it to be something it can never be.   It is limited to the physical universe.   Yes, if you understand more about His creation, it can make you closer to Him.   But science won't do it for you.   But I'll repeat it one more time.

You don't seem to understand what I said in my post. 

Do you agree that if one want and seek for a richer and more complete understanding of God, that he need not look nowhere else, but to Jesus?

[RB]

I don't belong in this conversation/discussion, but do have a question. Maybe just a simple answer, but I wonder. Creation is a fact I'd say to everyone on this board, and without creation, evolution is a non issue. I just wonder if it weren't for evolution, could/would creation have survived oh these many years. 

Brother, the answer to your question is absolutely. Our God who is infinite in knowledge created the worlds and all things, visible and invisible, to work perfectly and for its resources to last as long as he needed them to last til the appointed time~thereforth, there are NO CHANCES for failure, (the unbelievers of this world are convinced that THEY must police people to make sure their earth is not destroyed) that's borderline of blasphemy which I know you would not do, but many do with their understanding and following men who think they are wise with their little problems and stumbling  blocks that they are convinced that proves YEC'S to be fools~ and the scriptures not giving us sufficient information to trust God's word above them and their wisdom.

The question is, why must they be mutually exclusive?

The God of the Bible is referred to in the Bible (Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 43:1, Romans 1:25, etc.) as Creator of all that is, not the developer of some system that eventually produces all that is.To create by fiat (Genesis 1) implies the act of bringing something into existence directly and purposefully, not eventually and by chance.

Evolutionary theory (i.e. Darwinianism), on the other hand, has always been based on naturalism and has never postulated a role of any sort for the Creator God of the Bible. So believing in both the God of the Bible and macroevolutionary theory necessarily involves a very awkward redefining of terms, and an anomalous merging of concepts. The resulting hybrid views are variously referred to today as Deistic evolution, theistic evolution, progressive creationism, BioLogos, Framework interpretation, Day-Age and Gap theories. All such views are rejected by proponents of literal Biblical creationism and naturalistic evolution~with good reason.

Intellectually sharp scientific minds (past and present) such as Assimov, Sagan, Dawkins, and Provine have all been absolutely consistent in saying that if an impersonal, inanimate  evolutionary system can rearrange molecules and chemicals in such a way as to have produced all that is, then there is certainly no need or place for God and religious myth in this world~they TRULY understand this and is the driving force behind TRYING to linked the two together!

Some creationists make creationism a stumbling block for unbelievers who might otherwise come to Him.

For a short side note.....Sir, ALL given to Christ by God, WILL COME TO HIM~our love for God, or hatred toward God CANNOT affect a person's free gift of eternal life, impossible.

[AVZ]

Hey guys,
 I don't belong in this conversation/discussion, but do have a question. Maybe just a simple answer, but I wonder.
 Creation is a fact I'd say to everyone on this board, and without creation, evolution is a non issue. I just wonder if it weren't for evolution, could/would creation have survived oh these many years.
 The question is, why must they be mutually exclusive?
  Thanks and blessings.

This is not about mutual exclusivity. Evolution (i.e. macro evolution) is a non-option because it doesn't exist and it cannot happen.
One species does not evolve into another. Not in 100 years, not in 10,000 years, not in a million years and not in a billion years.
God could not have used something that does not exist and does not happen.

[The Barbarian]

Hey guys,
 I don't belong in this conversation/discussion, but do have a question. Maybe just a simple answer, but I wonder.
 Creation is a fact I'd say to everyone on this board, and without creation, evolution is a non issue. I just wonder if it weren't for evolution, could/would creation have survived oh these many years.
 The question is, why must they be mutually exclusive?
  Thanks and blessings.

Obviously, evolution is no different than anything else in this world.   It's all God's creation.   Without macroevolution, life would never have produced us.   And it was God's intention to produce us.

Macroevolution is directly observed to happen.   Even many creationists now admit that speciation is an observed fact.

[The Barbarian]

One species does not evolve into another.

Even many YE creationists admit that it's a fact.   From one of the largest creationist organizations, "Answers in Genesis:"

Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species.1 According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. In his famous book, On the Origin of Species, first published in 1859, Darwin set out to demolish this widespread view.

Darwin showed how the fixity of species ran counter to all the evidence he had been collecting for twenty years. His book managed to convince most scientists that species were not fixed or unchangeable. In the process, the church was proved wrong, with tragic consequences.

https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/do-species-change/

It is true that speciation is an observed fact.   They have one thing wrong there, however.   It was never the church's position that each kind of living thing was created as it is.  Indeed, St. Augustine pointed out that God created the potentiality for different living things, from which they appeared over time.

It's impossible to deny macroevolution, so AIG did the next best thing; they redefined "macroevolution" to exclude the evolution of new species.    The Institute for Creation Research has redefined it to exclude the evolution of new species, genera, and families of organisms.    The catch-22 here is that in doing so, they put humans and all other apes into the same kind.

Rock and a hard place.

God could not have used something that does not exist and does not happen.

Which is why He created evolution.    It was the way He chose to produce life in all its variety.

[The Barbarian]

Evolutionary theory (i.e. Darwinianism), on the other hand, has always been based on naturalism and has never postulated a role of any sort for the Creator God of the Bible.

That's also true of gravitational theory (i.e. Newtonianism).  Science can't even discuss the supernatural.  However this...

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

...which is the last sentence of Darwin's The Origin of Species, makes it clear that the theory in no way rules out God's creation.

So believing in both the God of the Bible and macroevolutionary theory necessarily involves a very awkward redefining of terms, and an anomalous merging of concepts.

No, that's wrong.   If you accept an omnipotent Creator, there is no conflict whatever.    Even Richard Dawkins, who hates religion, admits that our world is consistent with God.