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Online NorrinRadd

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #175 on: Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 01:42:46 »
On the subject of Church Music, "MeMyself" has proven herself to be a Politically Correct cultural Marxist and feminist!

Now I'm starting to think you're just a troll.

I had to look those labels up to see if there is any reasonable way they could apply to the topic at hand.

Here is the Google definition of "Political Correctness":

"The avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

In the absence of explanation, I don't know what that has to do with church music.

I've literally never heard of "Cultural Marxism" before.  At this page, I found --

"Cultural Marxism generally refers to one of two things:

    First — extremely rarely — "Cultural Marxism" refers to an obscure critique of popular culture by the Frankfurt School, framing culture as being imposed by a capitalist culture industry and consumed passively by the masses.
    Second — in common usage in the wild — "Cultural Marxism" is a snarl word used to paint anyone with progressive tendencies as a secret Communist. The term alludes to a conspiracy theory in which sinister left-wingers have infiltrated media, academia, and science and are engaged in a decades-long plot to undermine Western culture. Some variants of the conspiracy alleges that basically all of modern social liberalism is, in fact, a Communist front group."


At this page, I found another explanation more specifically tailored to Christians.

I don't see how it applies in any way to the current topic of church music.

"Feminism" is a common enough term.  The most common dictionary definition is along the lines of "advocating equal rights and opportunities for women as compared to men."  In that case, yes, I am definitely a feminist.  However, in and of itself, the word suggests a concern about advancing the interests of women per se, irrespective of the interests of men.  And many of us still recall the feminism of decades ago, that could well be characterized by the words of one prominent feminist of that era:  "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."  By such standards, I am certainly NOT a feminist.  I prefer egalitarian-mutualist, as I believe full equality and mutual dependence and cooperation characterize the Biblical norms for male-female interaction, in the church, home, and elsewhere.

There seems to be an underlying presupposition on the part of several in this thread, viz. that some of us are taking "liberal" or "progressive" values from the secular world and imposing them on church life.  I doubt this is true of any of us, and I'm certain it is not true of me.  I realize it is difficult for some to accept, but some of us really do derive so-called "liberal" beliefs from Scripture itself.


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Re: Church Music
« Reply #175 on: Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 01:42:46 »

Online jjeanniton

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #176 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 09:28:00 »
Dear "MeMyself", "NorrinRadd", "chosenone", and "Carey",

NorrinRadd said:

Quote
"Feminism" is a common enough term.  The most common dictionary definition is along the lines of "advocating equal rights and opportunities for women as compared to men."  In that case, yes, I am definitely a feminist.  However, in and of itself, the word suggests a concern about advancing the interests of women per se, irrespective of the interests of men.  And many of us still recall the feminism of decades ago, that could well be characterized by the words of one prominent feminist of that era:  "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."  By such standards, I am certainly NOT a feminist.  I prefer egalitarian-mutualist, as I believe full equality and mutual dependence and cooperation characterize the Biblical norms for male-female interaction, in the church, home, and elsewhere.


But feminism nowadays also implies role interchangeability and the ABROGATION of ALL role distinctions between the sexes. But these things are contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Here are the websites I quoted concerning Church Music:

http://religiousaffections.org/;
http://thecripplegate.com/;
http://www.av1611.org/;
http://novus2.com/musicandpraise/philosophy-of-music/.

If you believe that the stand taken by me or any of the authors of those websites are either wrong or unwarranted in the word of God, please attempt to find their e-mail addresses, and send them an e-mail explaining why they are wrong or why the Scripture-proofs they attempt to give for their positions are fallacious. Your enemies are not really me, but them!

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #176 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 09:28:00 »

Online MeMyself

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #177 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 09:32:41 »
Your enemies are not really me, but them!

They aren't "enemies" either...and they didn't bring their message here, you did, so you are to whom I and the others are responding.

I am always so sad when someone thinks that to not see things eye to eye means there is animosity.


I disagree with the way scripture is being used to "prove" their agendas and preferences, and the attempt to saddle this understanding to everyone.

To have personal conviction on the matter is one thing, which I will support their right to, and their reasons for (though I will not share their conviction)...but when it becomes something they feel needs to be imposed upon all, I will speak out against that as well.

Where there is freedom, I will fight for it to remain. 

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #178 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 10:54:00 »
They aren't "enemies" either...and they didn't bring their message here, you did, so you are to whom I and the others are responding.

I am always so sad when someone thinks that to not see things eye to eye means there is animosity.


I disagree with the way scripture is being used to "prove" their agendas and preferences, and the attempt to saddle this understanding to everyone.

To have personal conviction on the matter is one thing, which I will support their right to, and their reasons for (though I will not share their conviction)...but when it becomes something they feel needs to be imposed upon all, I will speak out against that as well.

Where there is freedom, I will fight for it to remain.

Well then, tell that to them, not to me. Provide a solid and hermeneutically sound Scripture proof showing those authors where their proofs are fallacious and why Scripture supports your opinions on church music rather than theirs.

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #178 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 10:54:00 »

Online MeMyself

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #179 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 12:40:45 »
Well then, tell that to them, not to me. Provide a solid and hermeneutically sound Scripture proof showing those authors where their proofs are fallacious and why Scripture supports your opinions on church music rather than theirs.

I am telling *you*, who has, of your own free will, brought their stuff here to be discussed.  I have zero desire to seek them out, or I already would have. I post here, you post here..I countered what you shared..that's the point of a message forum. ::shrug::

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #179 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 12:40:45 »



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Re: Church Music
« Reply #180 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 15:49:13 »
Dear "MeMyself", "NorrinRadd", "chosenone", and "Carey",

NorrinRadd said:

But feminism nowadays also implies role interchangeability and the ABROGATION of ALL role distinctions between the sexes. But these things are contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Here are the websites I quoted concerning Church Music:

http://religiousaffections.org/;
http://thecripplegate.com/;
http://www.av1611.org/;
http://novus2.com/musicandpraise/philosophy-of-music/.

If you believe that the stand taken by me or any of the authors of those websites are either wrong or unwarranted in the word of God, please attempt to find their e-mail addresses, and send them an e-mail explaining why they are wrong or why the Scripture-proofs they attempt to give for their positions are fallacious. Your enemies are not really me, but them!


Hi,
In regards to feminism,  could you clarify this statement, "role interchangeability and the ABROGATION of ALL role distinctions between the sexes." 

It is clear that God made the sexes with distinct skills and qualifications such that when males and females come together they become more than the sum of their two parts.   Feminism or any other ism that seeks to eliminate these differences is misguided and I would agree is contrary to Bible teachings, but feminism, in the original sense of the word is not, IMO of course. 

Do you have any examples of feminist church music, I am not familiar with any, and the whole idea seems rather odd.  ::shrug::

To your other point,  Enemy?... I thought you were a brother, if you are a child of God and believe in Christ, we have something far more important in common than a disagreement over something as trivial as music.

Cheers,  ::tippinghat::





Online NorrinRadd

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #181 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 17:55:46 »
Dear "MeMyself", "NorrinRadd", "chosenone", and "Carey",

NorrinRadd said:

But feminism nowadays also implies role interchangeability and the ABROGATION of ALL role distinctions between the sexes. But these things are contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Here are the websites I quoted concerning Church Music:

http://religiousaffections.org/;
http://thecripplegate.com/;
http://www.av1611.org/;
http://novus2.com/musicandpraise/philosophy-of-music/.

If you believe that the stand taken by me or any of the authors of those websites are either wrong or unwarranted in the word of God, please attempt to find their e-mail addresses, and send them an e-mail explaining why they are wrong or why the Scripture-proofs they attempt to give for their positions are fallacious. Your enemies are not really me, but them!


No, I am not interested in tracking down the nuts who are the sources of your nuttiness.  YOU are the one who brought the nuttiness HERE.

Online NorrinRadd

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #182 on: Tue Apr 24, 2018 - 18:31:23 »
Hi,
In regards to feminism,  could you clarify this statement, "role interchangeability and the ABROGATION of ALL role distinctions between the sexes." 

It is clear that God made the sexes with distinct skills and qualifications such that when males and females come together they become more than the sum of their two parts.   Feminism or any other ism that seeks to eliminate these differences is misguided and I would agree is contrary to Bible teachings, but feminism, in the original sense of the word is not, IMO of course. 

I tend to agree with him/her, but only to a point.  In the secular realm, we've seen lowering of physical fitness standards in order to try to get even a few women into various branches of the military.  I think mixed-sex military units are of questionable wisdom, and I definitely do not favor lowering standards.

"Role distinctions" can be a loaded term.  In the Church, in complementarian parlance, men and women are "equal in value but different in roles."  That sounds kind of ok until you realize that "roles" are defined such that in the home and in the Church, a woman must always be under the ultimate authority of a man.  This renders their slogan little more Orwellian New-speak.

I see the Scriptural ideal as man and woman being equal partners with equal status in the home, and all Church leadership roles being equally available to both sexes; but that does not mean there are no differences between the sexes, or in how each would approach the same role.

Online jjeanniton

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #183 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 19:33:46 »
Which is also hilarious that you play the victim here...hedging your bets and acting like the accusation is unfair to YOUR camp, while you've *just* gotten done making the accusation yourself, aimed at others.
 rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

 ::eatingpopcorn:


I am not the ONE who accused ANYBODY of the likes of you of being judgmental, uncharitable, or legalistic!

https://truthinreality.com/2012/09/18/whats-wrong-with-christian-rock-music/:

Quote
Lie 6:  No one can live under those kind of rules. It’s too hard and legalistic.

Answer: [Just as if it had been far too] harsh of God to ask us to obey Him. Jesus was willing to obey the Father to die for our sins. In Isaiah 30:10, Israel wanted to hear smooth things. (II Timothy 4:3)

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but will heap to themselves teachers.

Christian rock is a tool of Satan because it blocks the path to self-denial, purity, holiness, separation and total devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ.


http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/music.php:

Quote
A representative of Nashville's Forefront Records, a Christian rock producing company, said:

"One of the stances that we take and that I take in my personal life is that our God through Christ is a God of redemption--he redeems all sorts of things. I don't think you can make music the culprit. People who live the (rock 'n roll) lifestyle live that kind of lifestyle whether they work construction or play rock music. I think that if you start damning any style of music you find yourself in a very awkward theological position of having to describe what kind of music God likes."

-Michael Henningsen, "Despite doubters and detractors, Christian music is the fastest-growing segment of the music industry," Monterey County Weekly, July 30, 1998, retrieved Oct 1, 2013, [www.montereycountyweekly.com]

What's wrong with this statement?

First of all, notice that his stance is self-centered. "I take this stance," and "I dont think," and "I think." We don't hear what the Bible says about what he's doing, he only justifies himself by his own mind.

Second, you can tell he is one of the "don't judge me" Christians, attempting to justify a "lifestyle" by the music one listens to without being rebuked, and that any music is acceptable to God.

And finally, notice that he says God "redeems all sorts of things." Does God redeem all sorts of THINGS, or all sorts of PEOPLE? There's a huge difference. I challenge this man to find me one tradition of man that God redeems, meaning that it was an evil tree (not of God) to begin with, and God made it good. The Christian God of the Bible changes PEOPLE (not things), and wipes their sin clean; He doesn't redeem the creations of mankind, and He certainly doesn't use evil fruit for His glory.

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
-Matthew 7:17-19

Did the Bible say that every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit can be cleaned up, and once it has the word "Jesus" written on it over and over, it transforms into a good tree? No, it says it is cast into the fire to be destroyed because it CANNOT produce good fruit. Rock n' roll (sex on the go) was developed out of sexual lust and satanic impluses, guided by demonic entities, so why would a Christian ever believe that music could possibly be used for God?

The Lord God has NEVER used Satanic tools for His glory.


See also: http://www.eaec.org/bibleanswers/judging_people.htm for the Bible REFUTATION of the objection "Don't JUDGE me!" used as a license for sin.

Online MeMyself

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #184 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 10:41:12 »
jjean...

what you find to be sin...by all means DO NOT DO! 

However, be charitable enough to realize that others may not find sin in drum beats and harmonies, and rather than condemn them for it and try to shame them into compliance with your convictions, by taking part of scripture and applying it to an agenda, pray for them, that they see clearly and that God lead them.

I'm not confident that God has led you, but its more the hoops and rules and opinions of loud people, who aren't very joyful, but very staunch and stiff making you feel insecure and panicked...I get it. Its easy to be afraid of them and think "What if they are right?!" and slide back into a faith built on obstacle courses rather than rest and relationship with Christ.

You judge the style of music and let that keep you from considering that a human heart, who longs to bring glory to God is sincerely doing their best to do so...and you harshly condemn them.  I'm sorry, because I know you don't like hearing that, but that is what you are doing, friend. 


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Re: Church Music
« Reply #185 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 13:05:14 »
jjean...

what you find to be sin...by all means DO NOT DO! 

However, be charitable enough to realize that others may not find sin in drum beats and harmonies, and rather than condemn them for it and try to shame them into compliance with your convictions, by taking part of scripture and applying it to an agenda, pray for them, that they see clearly and that God lead them.

I'm not confident that God has led you, but its more the hoops and rules and opinions of loud people, who aren't very joyful, but very staunch and stiff making you feel insecure and panicked...I get it. Its easy to be afraid of them and think "What if they are right?!" and slide back into a faith built on obstacle courses rather than rest and relationship with Christ.

You judge the style of music and let that keep you from considering that a human heart, who longs to bring glory to God is sincerely doing their best to do so...and you harshly condemn them.  I'm sorry, because I know you don't like hearing that, but that is what you are doing, friend.


You keep attacking my motives, calling them "an agenda", as if I were politically biased. Church Music is not a matter of politics or political correctness: it is about the sanctity of the Church!

My intention was not to harshly condemn the PERSONS, but the ACTIONS. It is the ACTIONS that are wrong, regardless of who is doing them.

Many people, like yourself, seem to believe that "Sincerity of heart is all that matters: as long as one is sincere in heart, it is acceptable to God". You said, "You judge the style of music and let that keep you from considering that a human heart, who longs to bring glory to God is sincerely doing their best to do so". But God WILL be glorified in the manner that He pleases: through the exact heeding of the Moral Law of God.

Anyway, let us do a little experiment.

Exhibit A: some excerpts of Carman's video Live ... Radically Saved:

Quote
JOHN: "Hey man, Hey cuz, Whatchoo doin man? I ain't seen you in a long time. HEY, BABY." Jesus turns and says, "Hey, what's up, John?" See, Jesus is always cool; he's always together. He's got his thing together, y' know, [at this point, Carman performs what he called "The Messiah Walk"]...
JOHN: "This is wild, brother, now I don't know. Man, I never had anybody in my family MAKE IT BIG . . ."


Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/carman1.ram.

Exhibit B: Carman's Resurrection Rap.

Jesus is depicted as a street hippie.

, The apostles and Pharisees are depicted as black street gang members.

Jesus is depicted as crucified in a back alley gang fight.

Jesus's dead body is being depicted as thrown into a garbage dumpster.

Exhibit C: Carman's Who's in the House:

Quote
You take Him high
You take Him low
You take J.C. wherever you go
Now tell me, who...who...who...who...who...who?
Tell me who's in the house? J.C.
Tell me who's in the house? J.C.
Tell me who's in the house? J.C.
Tell me who's in the house? J.C.
Jesus Christ is in the house today


Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/carman2.ram

Exhibit D: Carman's Holy Ghost Hop:

Quote
Everybody used to do the twist
The mashed potato and it goes like this
The funky chicken, monkey too
There wasn't nothin' they would not do
But there's a new dance no one can stop
A leap for joy we call the Holy Ghost Hop.
Now get ready, hold steady
Don't deny it, just try it
Be bold now, let it go now
Give the Holy Ghost control now


Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/carman3.ram

Exhibit E: Another Contemporary Christian Music artist:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/771.ram

Exhibit F:  Another Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) artist, in their album "We Are Not Ashamed":

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/bigm1.ram, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxuLuRSf5lo

Exhibit G: "Audio Adrenaline" (which is another CCM artist):

Quote
All over the country, I've seen it the same,
Nobody's winning at this type of game,
We've got to do better, we've got to take aim.
All of the answers, ARE COME FROM WITHIN
Come on and take a free exae
Come on and get by my side


Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/audioa1.ram

Quote
I could move to hollywood (yeah)
Get my teeth capped I know I could
Be a big star on the silver screen
Just like james dean, I could be a star
I could climb the corporate ladder, buy, sell, and liquidate
Maybe be just like the Beatles, melodic rocking heavyweights
I could learn to sing and dance
If I only had a chance
I could be a big rock star
I could be anything I wanted to
I could be anything but one thing's true
Never gonna be as big as Jesus
Nnever gonna hold the world in my hand
Never gonna be as big as Jesus
Never gonna build a Promise Land


Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/audioa2.ram

Exhibit H: Another CCM artist named Sryper:



As you can see, here are TWO men, named Robert Sweet and Tim Gaines with not just LONG HAIR, but EARRINGS, LIP-GLOSS, and MASCARA! Do they look like men, or rather more like women?

Exhibit I:  Steve Taylor, another CCM artist, and his selection, "This Disco Used to be a Cute Cathedral":

Quote
Sunday needs a pick-me-up?
Here's your chance
Do you get tired of the same old square dance?
Allemande right now, all join hands
Do-si-do to the promised boogieland
Got no need for altar calls
Sold the altar for the mirror balls
Do you shuffle? do you twist?
Cause with a hot hits playlist, now we say
This disco used to be a cute cathedral
where the chosen cha-cha every day of the year
this disco used to be a cute cathedral
where we only play the stuff you're wanting to hear
Sell your holy habitats
that ship's been deserted by sinking rats


Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/staylor1.ram

"I Want to be a Clone": http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/staylor2.ram

Exhibit J: Rez Band:

Quote
I kill the children
before they're born
their little feet begin to form
Don't buy them shoes, they won't be worn
I kill children I am not scorned.


Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/rez1.ram

Exhibit K: Petra, another team of CCM artists!

Here is a sample of their hit song "God gave Rock & Roll to you": http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/petra1.ram

Exhibit L: The Daniel Band, which is another CCM group of artists:

Quote
There's a party in Heaven
The bread is unleaven
The tree of life is growin' fine
It's way past eleven
My number is seven
The Lamb and I are drinkin' new wine.


Hear and see for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8yaYWH58U

Exhibit M: Bride, another CCM artist:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/bride1.ram, http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/bride2.ram, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg_wKX6ufT0

Exhibit N: Vengeance, another CCM artist:

Their song, "Beheaded":

Quote
And I saw the beast rise And the dragon gave him his power And the world followed him And it was granted him to make war With the siants and to overcome them Seven thunders uttered their voices But the message has been sealed However there are certain things that The Lord has revealed If anyone worships the beast (and receives the mark) He will drink of the wrath (of God) He shall be tormented with fire forever In the presence of the angels and the Lamb In the time that it all comes down You'll find out just what witnessing is really all about So when they ask you to take the mark of the beast Just scream in their faces, "I want to be beheaded, beheaded" I want (my) head chopped off You'll see (my) body rot But then (I'll) reign with Christ And then you will fry


Hear for yourself the whole song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spqjeGNe-xo

Exhibit O: One Bad Pig, another CCM artist:

"You're a Pagan": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i3J44QFdWs

Now for the Case of Conscience: From hearing AND seeing samples of Contemporary Christian Artists, do you think that any of them are appropriate for Christian music or assemblies of public worship, whether formal or informal? Please provide clear and unambiguous scriptural proofs for your position.

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #186 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 13:22:41 »
You keep attacking my motives, calling them "an agenda", as if I were politically biased. Church Music is not a matter of politics or political correctness: it is about the sanctity of the Church!

My intention was not to harshly condemn the PERSONS, but the ACTIONS. It is the ACTIONS that are wrong, regardless of who is doing them.

Many people, like yourself, seem to believe that "Sincerity of heart is all that matters: as long as one is sincere in heart, it is acceptable to God". You said, "You judge the style of music and let that keep you from considering that a human heart, who longs to bring glory to God is sincerely doing their best to do so". But God WILL be glorified in the manner that He pleases: through the exact heeding of the Moral Law of God.

Anyway, let us do a little experiment.

Exhibit A: some excerpts of Carman's video Live ... Radically Saved:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/carman1.ram.

Exhibit B: Carman's Resurrection Rap.

Jesus is depicted as a street hippie.

, The apostles and Pharisees are depicted as black street gang members.

Jesus is depicted as crucified in a back alley gang fight.

Jesus's dead body is being depicted as thrown into a garbage dumpster.

Exhibit C: Carman's Who's in the House:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/carman2.ram

Exhibit D: Carman's Holy Ghost Hop:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/carman3.ram

Exhibit E: Another Contemporary Christian Music artist:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/771.ram

Exhibit F:  Another Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) artist, in their album "We Are Not Ashamed":

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/bigm1.ram, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxuLuRSf5lo

Exhibit G: "Audio Adrenaline" (which is another CCM artist):

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/audioa1.ram

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/audioa2.ram

Exhibit H: Another CCM artist named Sryper:



As you can see, here are TWO men, named Robert Sweet and Tim Gaines with not just LONG HAIR, but EARRINGS, LIP-GLOSS, and MASCARA! Do they look like men, or rather more like women?

Exhibit I:  Steve Taylor, another CCM artist, and his selection, "This Disco Used to be a Cute Cathedral":

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/staylor1.ram

"I Want to be a Clone": http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/staylor2.ram

Exhibit J: Rez Band:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/rez1.ram

Exhibit K: Petra, another team of CCM artists!

Here is a sample of their hit song "God gave Rock & Roll to you": http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/petra1.ram

Exhibit L: The Daniel Band, which is another CCM group of artists:

Hear and see for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8yaYWH58U

Exhibit M: Bride, another CCM artist:

Hear for yourself: http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/bride1.ram, http://www.av1611.org/sound/crock/bride2.ram, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg_wKX6ufT0

Exhibit N: Vengeance, another CCM artist:

Their song, "Beheaded":

Hear for yourself the whole song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spqjeGNe-xo

Exhibit O: One Bad Pig, another CCM artist:

"You're a Pagan": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i3J44QFdWs

Now for the Case of Conscience: From hearing AND seeing samples of Contemporary Christian Artists, do you think that any of them are appropriate for Christian music or assemblies of public worship, whether formal or informal? Please provide clear and unambiguous scriptural proofs for your position.


You are personally offended and so you can't see this through any other lens than that.

at anyrate;
Quote
Now for the Case of Conscience: From hearing AND seeing samples of Contemporary Christian Artists, do you think that any of them are appropriate for Christian music or assemblies of public worship, whether formal or informal? Please provide clear and unambiguous scriptural proofs for your position

Do I think they are appropriate and I must have biblical proofs for my position...

interesting.

I think they are appropriate. I think God is pleased when people act as Paul did when he said, (I Corinthians 9) "19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

It was appropriate for Paul to become all things to all people so that the gospel could be shared and heard.  I am SURE there were many many who thought him completely inappropriate and sinful...but he was too busy sharing the gospel in whatever "language" or manner others were able to hear it in to much care.


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Re: Church Music
« Reply #187 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 16:42:07 »
So, Crazy Nutbar spilling your "crock" of stuff from a ridiculous AV1611-only site --

Thanks for posting those samples.  Unfortunately, I couldn't play most of them.  For whatever reason, .ram files don't seem to work on my computer.

I'm old, so I always love me some Petra.  "Petra Praise" is my go-to car music.

RezBand is long gone.  They were a tad too "hard" for my tastes.

Nice to see Stryper is back in the game.  I was never a huge fan of '80s "hair bands," but they were ok.

Never was a big "Carmen" guy, nor a big fan of rap or hip-hop, or whatever that was.  No prob. though with his visually contemporizing the Gospel as a way to make it more "real" to audiences today.

Always enjoyed Steve Taylor's stuff.  Another '80s guy.  I hadn't heard anything from or about him in ages.

I'm not familiar with most of the other names in your list.

Since it's a YouTube vid., I was able to check out "You're a Pagan" by One Bad Pig.  Punk Rock is not my preferred genre, but the content is quite good.

Also, I see no reason to object to the lyrics you posted from, well, anyone.  I think you are HUGELY missing the point that in many cases, they are intended to provocatively address social deterioration and Church hypocrisy.  They are, in that sense, prophetic.

Got any good, blasphemous stuff from Randy Stonehill that you can post?  He was another favorite of mine "back in the day."

I was friends with guys in a local Christian Rock band back in the '80s.  I wish their stuff were available online.  I'd post a few links for you.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 16:51:00 by NorrinRadd »

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #188 on: Yesterday at 16:24:31 »
For your information, "crock" in the URL is an abbreviation for "Christian Rock." But you have used this term "crock" as a cavillous ad-hominem attack either on my character or the character of the sources I quoted.

You are personally offended and so you can't see this through any other lens than that.

at anyrate; Do I think they are appropriate and I must have biblical proofs for my position...

interesting.

I think they are appropriate. I think God is pleased when people act as Paul did when he said, (I Corinthians 9) "19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

It was appropriate for Paul to become all things to all people so that the gospel could be shared and heard.  I am SURE there were many many who thought him completely inappropriate and sinful...but he was too busy sharing the gospel in whatever "language" or manner others were able to hear it in to much care.

There is a common misconception among professed Christians nowadays about the true purpose of Christian Music. They seem to believe that it is a tool to reach out and save the lost!

Nowhere in the Bible do we ever see even the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul using any species of music, whether sacred or secular, as a tool for reaching out the lost! In every case in which music is religiously used, it was used either for the praise of God or the praise of the Devil.

Paul the Apostle states in 1 Corinthians 1:21 that it pleased God through the foolishness of PREACHING to save those who believe.

Read:

https://www.christian-faith.com/christian-contemporary-music-and-christian-rock/:

Quote

On Christian Contemporary Music and Christian Rock

15-18 minutes

"The disciple is not above His Lord. If we want the joy of Christ, we must do what Christ did. For Him, satisfaction was not the result of finding some Christian pleasure to compete with the world's pleasure. It was not a question of being entertained by church performances instead of secular performances. Christ does not compete by promising a religious equivalent of what the world offers, pleasure for pleasure. It is completely different. The pleasure of Christ is the will of God and its enactment. No dance, no concert, no sensational movie can compete with winning a soul for Christ". – Evangelist Reinhard Bonnke.

Communications experts tell us that the words of something comprise about 7% of the total communication content. Even more is communicated via the tone of voice and via the Body Language. Musical performers communicates an attitude as well as a spirit. It is not just what is said, but the way it is said that is important. Often it is an attitude of worldly pride, or rebellion that is communicated. Some of the dancing in church these days would be fit for broadcast on MTV. And young people love that, when they are in the flesh. Doesn't matter whethere they are Christians or not. Sex sells.

Sometimes the message of the way something is being said communicates more than the words. It is possible to say, "Glory to Jesus" with your mouth, while your whole demeanour is saying, "Aren't I awesome?!". I have seen two kinds of brilliant guitarists in the church. One is humble and not trying to attract attention to himself. The other kind is just posing. Everything is done for effect.

Some music ministry, even worship ministry today claims to have Almighty God as the chief object of worship, yet the real admiration is going to the musicians. You can go to Christian concerts where it really looks like the people are worshipping the band! But this hardly seems to be a concern today. Its being done in the name of Jesus, after all, so it must be OK, right?

In the book of Acts Paul and Barnabas spoke a word and a crippled man walked. This happened in a city called Lystra. The people thought they were gods and started to worship them. Paul did not take this in his stride. He did not smile smugly, thinking how wonderful and godlike he really was. No, he and Barnabas tore their clothes in dismay and ended up getting stoned. Acts 14:14

What would happen if a modern rock band upon seeing the adulation of the crowd began to tear their clothes, broken-hearted that perhaps some soul was attributing to them what belonged to God alone? Can you imagine that happening? Perhaps an even greater frenzy would erupt in the crowd, especially amongst the younger teenage girls. Either that, or the promoters of the concert would soon pull them into line. Give the people what they want, right?

Naturally speaking, I enjoy light rock and a lot of pop music seems pretty melodious and catchy. God however, wants our every thought to be made captive to the obedience of Christ. That can't happen in me while some other words of dubious value are buzzing round in my head repetitively. Music was made primarily to praise and worship God with. Beautiful music can give us a sense of the eternal, but only God delivers the substance. A lot of Christians prefer being entertained to worshiping God. This preference has now carried over into our church music. There's tonnes of hype, and not a lot of power.

There is contemporary Christian music worth listening to, but if it is, its because those who play it are people of prayer with a passion for God. But how many are? You can be popular and successful in wordly terms even as a Christian minister without truly being on fire for God. It seems to me there is a mixture of spiritual influences in so much of the CCM scene – God hates these mixtures. A lot of CCM is so wishy-washy because its trying to soft-pedal the name of Jesus. They cannot and do not recommend holiness of heart and life.

You hear the artists complain 'Do we have to bring up the name of Jesus in every song?' Well, what is the motivation for avoiding the mention of His name? Are we ashamed? So many are trying to demonstrate that they are "cooler than thou". If you challenge this attitude, most likely you will be told you are 'religious' as if such name-calling proved anything.

Unless you are really far from God, most CCM won't draw you any closer to God. The music we listen to should praise God or deeply challenge us to live for Him. This is because we are in a spiritual warfare and the battle for our minds is real. If it doesn't draw you to God, drop it and replace it with music that does. Some things that may be alright at first – even things that may have encouraged you – may be holding you back from really focusing your mind on the things that will set you free. This is a matter of conscience between each believer and the Lord, but the fruit of what we love to listen to is showing in the church today. I have a Christian friend and an outstanding guitarist who writes very stirring music for the Lord. He tells me he hardly ever listens to much music himself. God has allowed people to use music as a tool for drawing a crowd of young people to preach to them. Music is also used in many crusade settings, to praise God, and this is fine. However, its my view that this is not the optimum in God. I never see anything like this in the book of Acts. This method of evangelism is used because we are not producing the signs and wonders that follow those who fast and pray for revival, and believe in God's promises enough to boldly step out and expect something to happen. But hey, we can be thankful if by any means some are coming to know the Lord. I would like to say though, that if 'knowing the Lord' is going to be more than a Christian cliche, its going to mean a denial of self in order to seek out God's Word and God's Spirit, not just an emotional high by whatever means.

I personally believe that there are dangers in the modern approach of using groovy music to draw the masses. The attitude it is played in is really important. Let's have talented musicians, with a humble attitude. God can bless that. Until people learn to really pray, much of what I am saying probably won't be received anyway. I do not believe that this rock and roll strategy with its accompanying attitude has been used anywhere where there has been a real revival of purity, holiness and humility. But if God does use it for such a thing, I would be delighted to be proven wrong on this issue.

Music is an idol for many, because it can make you feel better whether God speaks through it or not. Musical talent seems to be a passport to influence. One evangelist told me that he sang and produced albums because that was the only way he could get into some churches. And he was anointed! But if you play popular music, you can get influence in the church whether you are anointed or not! Should the standard required be higher for preachers than for those who may be having far more influence into the lives of young people – the musicians? I have had some personal experience with this and I still ask the questions.

A lot of the material put out by the CCM crowd is designed to appeal to pleasure-loving, carnal Christians. In the last days, the Bible warns, "men will be lovers of pleasure .. having a form of godliness (Christianity) but denying the power thereof" (2 Timothy 3:1-5). The true power of God comes through the cross. Not the cross as worn by pop icons such as Prince and Madonna, but the principal of (painful) death to the world and the flesh in order to sacrificially devote oneself to God and His pleasure. In a world which worships music and musicians, we Christians must beware of falling into the same trap. Without practising self-denial in this area, we will not grow in discipleship with Jesus Christ, but instead, we will learn from other masters. Jesus said, "if anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself".

John Wesley pointed out that the self-denial means to deny oneself any pleasure that does not come from God, or lead to God. I don't believe in the simple rules men have devised to categorise whether a particular style of music could be of God, but I am convinced that much of the church today has opted for man-pleasing and pleasure-loving in the service of Mammon. If entertainers have become the prophets of the church today, then we should expect the highest standards of christian morality from them. Does the fact that someone can play the guitar brilliantly or sing well mean that God wants to put him in a place of prominence in His church? I don't think the message of a true prophet of God is that God wants us to have more fun, to be more cool and things like that. The true message is still "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

Music as a Tool for Evangelism

One man who did play contemporary style music and who did live a life of dedication to God was Keith Green. He died tragically of an airplane accident back in 1982. He did a lot to reach his generation for Christ, to stir up a passion for holiness and a zeal for missions, but it wasn't by being a carnal compromiser. He said a lot of crazy things like "the definition of a real Christian is someone who's bananas for Jesus". I recommend his music to those Christians who still need to come to the place where they are living for God.

Anything can be used for evangelism, but God wants our hearts to be pure and right, and our expression to be an expression of the nature of Jesus Christ. Those devoted to heavy metal and hard rock have a look in their eyes totally unlike that of Jesus Christ. Why would a real Christian want to look like they do? We are told to "avoid the appearance of evil, " (1 Thessalonians 5:22) not to look as evil as we can to attract sinners to the Lord. Are we now wiser than God?

I've talked with plenty of people who see rock music as a tool of evangelism. Some I've known quite closely. They still had the look of hurt and rebellion and seemed to be inwardly tormented individuals. Rock music has always been strongly hedonistic in nature, and doesn't transmit peace. How suitable is it as a medium for the "gospel of peace"? Yes, Rock Music can attract people to church meetings. But then again, so did the Emporer Constantine when he brought a flood of paganism into the church and gave birth to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox church power structure.

[But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy (James 3:17 KJV)].  To me, even the style of rock music communicates agitation, restlessness and distraction. Its proven to be the perfect medium to promote the spirit of rebellion against God. Is Christian rock pure? Is it peaceable? Is it gentle? It is only because we the church in the west have abandoned the wisdom of God that we find it necessary to use the method of rock music as a tool of evangelism. Like the Israelites who used some of the Canaanites as servants instead of slaying them, we too have been more tolerant than God, and more pragmatic than God also. This is one reason why the church today lacks convicting power and seems to need all kinds of gimmicks to avoid boring people. We want to fascinate, rather than confront. I'm telling you, when God is there in power, its highly relevant to your personal life, and it has nothing to do with the presence or absence of gimmicks. Paul experienced God in a horrible prison cell. He didn't even have a radio.


« Last Edit: Yesterday at 19:38:34 by jjeanniton »

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #189 on: Yesterday at 17:27:17 »
There is something else I must tell to all the rest of my fellow members. Over 50 years ago, a conservative Christian by the name of A. W. Tozer addressed many of the very SAME questions I am addressing on this topic of Church Music.

https://conservativechristianity.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tozer-on-worship-music-5/:

Quote

Tozer on Worship Music – 5

The question of numbers and their relation to success or failure in the work of the Lord is one that disturbs most Christians more than a little.

...

The ... school [of most Contemporary Christian Music artists] is [currently] the most vocal [of all the possible schools of thought on this question] and has by far the largest following in gospel circles today. Its philosophy, if it can be called a philosophy, is that “we must get the message out” regardless of how we go about it. The devotees of this doctrine appear to be more concerned with quantity than with quality. They seem burned up with desire to “bring the people in” even if they have not much to offer them after they are in. They take inexcusable liberties both with message and with method. The Scriptures are used rather than expounded and the Lordship of Christ almost completely ignored. Pressure is exerted to persuade the people (who, by the way, come to the meetings with something else in mind altogether) to accept Christ, with the understanding that they shall then have peace of mind and financial prosperity, not to mention high grades in school and a low score on the golf course.

The crowds-at-any-price mania has taken a firm grip on American Christianity and is the motivating power back of a shockingly high percentage of all religious activity. Men and churches compete for the attention of the paying multitudes who are brought in by means of any currently popular gadget or gimmick ostensibly to have their souls saved, but, if the truth were told, often for reasons not so praiseworthy as this.

...

Our constant effort should be to reach as many persons as possible with the Christian message, and for that reason numbers are critically important. But our first responsibility is not to make converts but to uphold the honor of God in a world given over to the glory of fallen man. No matter how many persons we touch with the gospel we have failed unless, along with the message of invitation, we have boldly declared the exceeding sinfulness of man and the transcendent holiness of the Most High God. They who degrade or compromise the truth in order to reach larger numbers, dishonor God and deeply injure the souls of men.

The temptation to modify the teachings of Christ with the hope that larger numbers may “accept” Him is cruelly strong in this day of speed, size, noise and crowds. But if we know what is good for us, we’ll resist it with every power at our command. To yield can only result in a weak and ineffective Christianity in this generation, and death and desolation in the next.


The Size of the Soul


And one more thing:

https://conservativechristianity.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/tozer-on-worship-music-2/:

Quote
Not our religious literature only and our hymnody have suffered from the notion that love to be true to itself must be silent in the presence of any and every abomination, but almost every phase of our church life has suffered also. Once a Bible and a hymnbook were enough to allow gospel Christians to express their joy in the public assembly, but now it requires tons of gadgets to satisfy the pagan appetites of persons who call themselves Christians.

— The Size of the Soul

Gospel ballad singing is now quite the rage in the lower echelon of the entertainment world. Many of the shows beamed toward the paying masses are made acceptable to the religiously inclined by the introduction of a bit of tongue-in-cheek religion, usually expressed in these highly spiced gospel ballads, whose theology is a mixture of paganism and old wives’ tales and whose prevailing mood is one of weak self-pity. Such holy men as Elijah, Daniel, Ezekiel and John are turned into burnt-cork minstrels who are made to preach and prophesy for laughs…. Every word of Christ, every act, was simple, sincere and dignified. The entire New Testament breathes the same spirit…. It is significant that the two greatest movements within the church since Pentecost, the sixteenth century Reformation and the Wesley revival, were characterized by sobriety and sincerity. They both reached the roots of society and touched the masses, yet they never descended to be common or to pander to carnal flesh. The quality of their preaching was lofty, serious and dignified, and their singing the same.

— The Quotable Tozer

Many of our popular songs and choruses in praise of Christ are hollow and unconvincing. Some are even shocking in their amorous endearments, and strike a reverent soul as being a kind of flattery offered to One with whom neither composer nor singer is acquainted. The whole thing is in the mood of the love ditty, the only difference being the substitution of the name of Christ for that of the earthly lover. How different and how utterly wonderful are the emotions aroused by a true and Spirit-incited love for Christ. Such a love may rise to a degree of adoration almost beyond the power of the heart to endure, yet at the same time it will be serious, elevated, chaste and reverent.

— That Incredible Christian


The so-called clergy (i.e. ordained ministers of the gospel) of the local church and in every local church belonging to the Universal Christian Church are called to be AMBASSADORS and HERALDS of Christ - not DIPLOMATS! Only DIPLOMATS would ever DREAM of negotiating and compromising the message entrusted unto them by their superiors in order to conciliate the other parties.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 19:44:31 by jjeanniton »

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #190 on: Yesterday at 20:11:09 »
For your information, "crock" in the URL is an abbreviation for "Christian Rock." But you have used this term "crock" as a cavillous ad-hominem attack either on my character or the character of the sources I quoted.

I don't know why you chose to say the above quote to me.  I didn't say crock at all.

Quote
There is a common misconception among professed Christians nowadays about the true purpose of Christian Music. They seem to believe that it is a tool to reach out and save the lost!

Nowhere in the Bible do we ever see even the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul using any species of music, whether sacred or secular, as a tool for reaching out the lost!

My goodness!  The rigidity with which you try and hem things in is heartbreaking!  You'd better get off the computer and forums, for no where in the bible do we ever see anyone using these *period*!

There were people that were unsaved, surely at the gatherings of the early church, and singing was not only permitted but required during those gatherings (Ephesians 5).  I'm sure there were those that were moved by song and their hearts softened towards the Lord because of first the music as well as the preaching then, just as it is possible now.

There are many many songs that are the gospel message set to music, and many testimonies of a song being used by God to save and change hearts.

As to your quote in red.  That is just a very sadly judgemental person who thought too highly of themselves, thinking that they were qualified to judge another's heart based on how they appeared to them, and then slander them to others.  Sad and sickening, and heartbreaking really.  There are seven things God hates, music style isn't listed, but those that stir up strife among brothers is. ::pondering:: ::hiding::
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 20:18:10 by MeMyself »

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #191 on: Yesterday at 21:17:10 »
I don't know why you chose to say the above quote to me.  I didn't say crock at all.

Actually, it was NorrinRadd who so cavillously dismissed and ridiculed one of my sources as a "crock", when he said, "So, Crazy Nutbar spilling your "crock" of stuff from a ridiculous AV1611-only site -- ". And that is precisely what motivated me to remark that "crock" in the URL that I quoted is an abbreviation for "Christian Rock".

See: https://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FJFB1CNU.

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #192 on: Yesterday at 22:07:46 »
Actually, it was NorrinRadd who so cavillously dismissed and ridiculed one of my sources as a "crock", when he said, "So, Crazy Nutbar spilling your "crock" of stuff from a ridiculous AV1611-only site -- ". And that is precisely what motivated me to remark that "crock" in the URL that I quoted is an abbreviation for "Christian Rock".

See: https://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FJFB1CNU.

You said "for your information..." and then quoted me as if I were the one that said what you started your post addressing.

Thanks for clarifying.

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Re: Church Music
« Reply #193 on: Today at 01:09:40 »
I don't know why you chose to say the above quote to me.  I didn't say crock at all.

I did, at least twice.   ::clappingoverhead::  I take it as a delightful sign of Providence that the URL was composed as it was.   ::nodding::

 

     
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