Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[th1b.taylor]

On #4: That evolution is about the creation of life's diversity.

More correctly, evolution Is the way God created each organism according to its kind.

Michael:
I could not agree to this.

Take a look..
 Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth. [23] And the evening and morning were the fifth day. [24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth. [29] And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat: [30] And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

He doesn't say how He created them according to their kind, but the evidence shows it was by evolution.

What evidence?

Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

What evidence can you show that will prove that God created sea creatures according to their kind by evolution? 

What evidence can you show that will prove that God every winged fowl according to their kind by evolution? 

"the waters brought forth" does not mean to say that it was the waters that caused the production or creation of all the sea creatures, and of every winged fowl, or that the sea creatures and winged fowl were made out of the waters, or that evolution took place from out of the waters.

Genesis 1:22 And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth.

After God have created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind, God commanded them to "Increase and multiply", not to "evolve" further into some other kinds of living creature.

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

What evidence can you show that will prove that God created every land creatures according to their kind by evolution? 

"The earth brought forth" does not at all mean to say that it was the earth that caused the production or creation all the land creatures, or that the earth creatures were made out of the earth, or that evolution took place from out of the earth.

Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.


Clearly, what God created is man, the kind of which you and I belong. Did God created man by evolution? You say, claim and insist, that it is by evolution, and even say that this is consistent with scriptures, even while on the other hand you yourself say that scriptures doesn't say how God created.

I understand that you believe that God created the present humankind by evolution, which tells me that you now know HOW God created man. You apparently believe this, not because scriptures reveals this, but obviously because of man's scientific wisdom. That God created the first living humans, perhaps the Neandertals, or H. erectus, or what have you, which over some million years thereafter, evolved into the humankind of today. And I would wonder if the first living humans for you are Adam and Eve or that they are rather the first of them that evolved into the humankind of today.       

Scientist seems to say that creation of new kinds of living things still persist by evolution, up to the present day. After all, evolution, I understand, is taught to be a continuing process of change, and which is now turning out to be a creation method. And this tells me, in relation to evolution, that we still continue to evolve. Until when?Into what? That nobody can say, I guess.

Another thing on evolution is that, if this is a natural creation process created by God, anyone then who tampers with it, I think sins against God.

Michael, Barbarian believes he and others are new prophets of God who have finally evolved enough to now reveal the truth God could not reveal to us through Moses or any of the other prophets or bible writers, who apparently weren't evolved enough to do so. I'm afraid you and I simply haven't evolved enough to understand his prophecies yet. He speaks for all those whose parents are monkeys. So it is.

He, he, he, he he!  Your right, I haven't evolved, I'm still the mess my momma gave birth to, God blesself.s her pea picking

[Michael2012]

Hey guys,
 I don't belong in this conversation/discussion, but do have a question. Maybe just a simple answer, but I wonder.
 Creation is a fact I'd say to everyone on this board, and without creation, evolution is a non issue. I just wonder if it weren't for evolution, could/would creation have survived oh these many years.
 The question is, why must they be mutually exclusive?
  Thanks and blessings.

This is not about mutual exclusivity. Evolution (i.e. macro evolution) is a non-option because it doesn't exist and it cannot happen.
One species does not evolve into another. Not in 100 years, not in 10,000 years, not in a million years and not in a billion years.
God could not have used something that does not exist and does not happen.

What if science irrefutably proves evolution to be the truth within the next few decades? Will you still deny and stand on your above statement?

Is this a serious question?
If science irrefutably proves that God does not exist in the next few decades, will you deny Christ?

Nice deflection, I guess you couldn't honestly answer the question.

Let me take that for the sake of Alan, even while I feel the same way as AVZ on the question.

If science irrefutably proves that God does not exist in the next few decades, will you deny Christ?

NO.

Alan, let me modify your question and let me know your answer:

If scientists irrefutably proves that God does not exist in the next few decades, will you deny Christ?

Utter foolishness, you and AVZ are denying a very conceivable possibility and creating an impossible premise in an attempt to make your point. 

I gave you my answer to what to you is a very conceivable possibility. Now, what is your answer to the question:

If scientists irrefutably proves that God does not exist in the next few decades, will you deny Christ?

Or would you like me to say what you said to AVZ, "Nice deflection, I guess you couldn't honestly answer the question"?

Nice try, but don't try holding me to the wall when neither of you have answered my question, the path of deflection is persisting 


BTW, many scientists have indeed stated that creation and intelligent design are irrefutable fantasies, that stands as opinion though rather than observable data, so not bite there.

Okay, so I won't have to guess that you couldn't honestly answer the question. You have shown me that you can't.

You asked "If science irrefutably proves that God does not exist in the next few decades, will you deny Christ?". And my answer is NO. And you say that I have not answered your question?   

What are you talking about? I NEVER asked that question. 

Oooop! My bad. My sincere apologies.

And so, please ignore everything regarding that then.

I hope I got it right this time:

Alan: <<What if science irrefutably proves evolution to be the truth within the next few decades? >>

For me to answer properly, please clarify "to be the truth". Is it the truth, being that, God created the different kinds of living things using already created nature and evolved them for millions of years from there?

By the way, this is my comment. Evolution, as per my understanding, that it is a continuing process, even as we speak. When will this end that we can say that finally, God had finished what He intended to create. And if this has not ended today, does it not follow that because evolution continues, concerning God's creation of man, that man today is yet to evolve to its final state?

[The Barbarian]

By the way, this is my comment. Evolution, as per my understanding, that it is a continuing process, even as we speak. When will this end that we can say that finally, God had finished what He intended to create. And if this has not ended today, does it not follow that because evolution continues, concerning God's creation of man, that man today is yet to evolve to its final state?

Did God create you?    Or did He finish creation before He made you?

[RB]

Did God create you?    Or did He finish creation before He made you?

I'll help my friend out. He made me perfect in Christ BEFORE he created the worlds and all things!

2nd Timothy 1:9~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

The doctrine is called eternal justification. That's the ONLY and just way God could have been a friend of Abraham BEFORE the legal payment for our sins were paid for by Christ. Noah would have NEVER found grace in the eyes of God EXCEPT he was eternally justified by the grace of God BEFORE the foundation of this earth. Bottom line, when God purpose to do anything according to his will, IT IS AS GOOD AS DONE~for WHOM can defeat his will, or even hinder him?  No one.

https://www.amazon.com/Justification-Eternity-Tercentenary-Appreciation-John/dp/0952707438

From Spurgeon's Sermons "Adoption", Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Vol. 7

But there are one or two acts of God which, while they certainly are decreed as much as other things, yet they bear such a special relation to God’s predestination that it is rather difficult to say whether they were done in eternity or whether they were done in time. Election is one of those things which were done absolutely in eternity; all who were elect, were elect as much in eternity as they are in time. But you may say, Does the like affirmation apply to adoption or justification? My late eminent and now glorified predecessor, Dr. Gill, diligently studying these doctrines, said that adoption was the act of God in eternity, and that as all believers were elect in eternity, so beyond a doubt they were adopted in eternity. He further than that to include the doctrine of justification and he said that inasmuch as Jesus Christ was before all worlds justified by his Father, and accepted by him as our representative, therefore all the elect must have been justified in Christ from before all worlds. Now, I believe there is a great deal of truth in what he said, though there was a considerable outcry raised against him at the time he first uttered it. However, that being a high and mysterious point, we would have you accept the doctrine that all those who are saved at last were elect in eternity when the means as well the end were determined. With regard to adoption, I believe we were predestined hereunto in eternity, but I do think there are some points with regard to adoption which will not allow me to consider the act of adoption to have been completed in eternity. For instance, the positive translation of my soul from a state of nature into a state of grace is a part of adoption or at least it is an effect at it, and so close an effect that it really seems to be a part of adoption itself: I believe that this was designed, and in fact that it was virtually carried out in God’s everlasting covenant; but I think that it was that actually then brought to pass in all its fullness. So with regard to justification, I must hold, that in the moment when Jesus Christ paid my debts, my debts were cancelled — in the hour when he worked out for me a perfect righteousness it was imputed to me, and therefore I may as a believer say I was complete in Christ before I was born, accepted in Jesus, even as Levi was blessed in the loins of Abraham by Melchisedec; but I know likewise that justification is described in the Scriptures as passing upon me at the time I believe. “Being justified by faith,” I am told “I have peace with God, through Jesus Christ.” I think, therefore that adoption and justification, while they have a very great alliance with eternity, and were virtually done then, yet have both of them such a near relation to us in time, and such a bearing upon our own personal standing and character that they have also a part and parcel of themselves actually carried out and performed in time in the heart of every believer. I may be wrong in this exposition; it requires much more time to study this subject than I have been able yet to give to it, seeing that my years are not yet many; I shall no doubt by degrees come to the knowledge more fully of such high and mysterious points of gospel doctrine. But nevertheless, while I find the majority of sound divines holding that the works of justification and adoption are due in our lives I see, on the other hand, in Scripture much to lead me to believe that both of them were done in eternity; and I think the fairest view of the case is, that while they were virtually done in eternity, yet both adoption and justification are actually passed upon us, in our proper persons, consciences, and experiences, in time, — so that both the Westminster confession and the idea of Dr. Gill can be proved to be Scriptural, and we may hold them both without any prejudice the one to the other.

Spurgeon had a little trouble of giving the proper sense of Justification, yet would never disagree with his mentor whom he learned so much from.

[The Barbarian]

I'll help my friend out. He made me perfect in Christ BEFORE he created the worlds and all things!

Not even Adam was so created.    God says he was created after the world was created.   You were formed in the womb long after that.

Psalm 139:13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.

Spurgeon had a little trouble of giving the proper sense of Justification, yet would never disagree with his mentor whom he learned so much from.

"But if you will look in the first chapter of Genesis, you will see there more particularly set forth that peculiar operation of power upon the universe which was put forth by the Holy Spirit; you will then discover what was his special work. In Ge 1:2, we read, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” We do not know how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God. "
Charles Spurgeon, The Power of the Holy Ghost

[Jean74]

Proof of God is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Who died and rose from the grave and will come on back to get us all that believe in Him.

[The Barbarian]

Proof of God is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Who died and rose from the grave and will come on back to get us all that believe in Him.

Yes.   Whether we accept the fact of evolution or not.   It makes no difference to our salvation.

[RB]

Not even Adam was so created.    God says he was created after the world was created.   You were formed in the womb long after that.

That's not the way you worded it. You asked:

Did God create you?    Or did He finish creation before He made you?

You kinda left the door opened wider than you should have or maybe intended to do, that allowed me to give you a biblical truth. So, it is a bible truth that this world and all things are the results of God's eternal purposes in Jesus Christ, which includes his elect body, he being the head...even though, yes, we were born in time.

Now concerning Spurgeon's statement concerning the gap theory~I respect much of what Spurgeon taught but he's was not a bible teacher as Gill, Brine, Richardson and many others before him~as a matter of truth, he was known more for his flowery speech and being a great orator than teaching bible truths. What he believe concerning creation were his personal beliefs which I know very little of his overall beliefs concerning creation but will investigate so I can be more knowledgeable~I only know what you quoted from here, if I had known more, then over the years I have forgotten, for I first read behind CHS around forty-five to fifty years ago. That's beginning to be a long time~it went SO FAST!

There is NO gap in Genesis 1:2,3, but the Holy Spirit is simply revealing to us the PROCESS of creation STEP BY STEP AS God created this earth, and the worlds and all things therein. The Gap theory is JUST THAT, a theory by man which good men like Spurgeon may very well had been influenced by modern day Theistic Evolution....(from Darwin on)

One more thought:

Psalm 139:13-16~"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

David being a prophet was speaking not of himself but of Christ and HIS MEMBERS OF HIS BODY!

[Michael2012]

By the way, this is my comment. Evolution, as per my understanding, that it is a continuing process, even as we speak. When will this end that we can say that finally, God had finished what He intended to create. And if this has not ended today, does it not follow that because evolution continues, concerning God's creation of man, that man today is yet to evolve to its final state?

Did God create you?    Or did He finish creation before He made you?

Yes God did. And you? He created me long after He finished creating Adam and Eve, in whom all of mankind were descended from. I was not created by evolution, by the way, and neither was Adam and Eve. Were you created by evolution?

The question remains:

Evolution, as per my understanding, that it is a continuing process, even as we speak. When will this end that we can say that finally, God had finished what He intended to create. And if this has not ended today, does it not follow that because evolution continues, concerning God's creation of man, that man today is yet to evolve to its final state?

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Not even Adam was so created.    God says he was created after the world was created.   You were formed in the womb long after that.

That's not the way you worded it.

That's the way God worded it.   Why not just accept it His way?

Barbarian asks:
Did God create you?    Or did He finish creation before He made you?

You kinda left the door opened wider than you should have or maybe intended to do, that allowed me to give you a biblical truth. So, it is a bible truth that this world and all things are the results of God's eternal purposes in Jesus Christ, which includes his elect body, he being the head...even though, yes, we were born in time.

Sounds like you just found a really wordy and obscure way to agree with me.   You were created in time, of course.   So His creation is proceeding as each of us is born.

Now concerning Spurgeon's statement concerning the gap theory~I respect much of what Spurgeon taught but he's was not a bible teacher as Gill, Brine, Richardson and many others before him~as a matter of truth, he was known more for his flowery speech and being a great orator than teaching bible truths.

But in this case, he's just showing you what creationism was before the modern revision that gave us YE creationism.   Almost all creationists, prior to the early 1900s, believed in an old Earth.

One more thought:
Quote

    Psalm 139:13-16~"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

David being a prophet was speaking not of himself but of Christ and HIS MEMBERS OF HIS BODY!

So you're telling me that David wasn't created by God, but Christ was?    I'm sorry, but that conflicts with some very basic facts of Christianity, among which is, Jesus is not a creation of God.    He is God.   And as you seem to already realize, Christians are created in time, just as everyone else is.

[RB]

So you're telling me that David wasn't created by God, but Christ was?    I'm sorry, but that conflicts with some very basic facts of Christianity, among which is, Jesus is not a creation of God.    He is God.   And as you seem to already realize, Christians are created in time, just as everyone else is.

I have some meetings to attend~I'll come back and filter through your confused mess (theology~you obviously are very intelligent, but that does not translate into knowing the scriptures) and then see if I can speak more clearly to you, which I have my doubts.

Almost all creationists, prior to the early 1900s, believed in an old Earth.

Believe so? We shall see~and even if many did, WHAT does that prove? It proves not one thing. The majority has ALWAYS been wrong when it comes to spiritual truths!

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
So you're telling me that David wasn't created by God, but Christ was?    I'm sorry, but that conflicts with some very basic facts of Christianity, among which is, Jesus is not a creation of God.    He is God.   And as you seem to already realize, Christians are created in time, just as everyone else is.

I have some meetings to attend~I'll come back and filter through your confused mess (theology~you obviously are very intelligent, but that does not translate into knowing the scriptures)

Well, I can always learn more.   If I were to boast about knowing more about it than others, it wouldn't really do me any good, would it?   

and then see if I can speak more clearly to you, which I have my doubts.

I'll be waiting to hear.

Barbarian observes:
Almost all creationists, prior to the early 1900s, believed in an old Earth.

Believe so?

Yep.   That was the form that was presented at the Scopes trial, for example.    It was that way until the Seventh-Day Adventists passed their doctrines on to fundamentalists.

We shall see~and even if many did, WHAT does that prove?

Only that YE creationism is a modern doctrine, no older than the last century.

[Amo]

http://www.darwinconspiracy.com/junk_dna_standalone.php

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v5i10f.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/07/04/3538701.htm

[Amo]

How do evolutionists explain this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKTBVO07ZhE

[Victor08]

How do evolutionists explain this?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKTBVO07ZhE

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep02106

Role of Huge Geometric Circular Structures in the Reproduction of a Marine Pufferfish
Hiroshi Kawase, Yoji Okata & Kimiaki Ito
Scientific Reports 3, Article number: 2106

Abstract
We report that male pufferfishes (Torquigener sp., Tetraodontidae) constructed large geometric circular structures on the seabed that played an important role in female mate choice. Males dug valleys at various angles in a radial direction, constructing nests surrounded by radially aligned peaks and valleys. Furthermore, they created irregular patterns in the nest comprising fine sand particles. The circular structure not only influences female mate choice but also functions to gather fine sand particles in nests, which are important in female mate choice. Strangely enough, the males never reuse the nest, always constructing a new circular structure at the huge cost of construction. This is because the valleys may not contain sufficient fine sand particles for multiple reproductive cycles.

[Amo]

How do evolutionists explain this?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKTBVO07ZhE

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep02106

Role of Huge Geometric Circular Structures in the Reproduction of a Marine Pufferfish
Hiroshi Kawase, Yoji Okata & Kimiaki Ito
Scientific Reports 3, Article number: 2106

Abstract
We report that male pufferfishes (Torquigener sp., Tetraodontidae) constructed large geometric circular structures on the seabed that played an important role in female mate choice. Males dug valleys at various angles in a radial direction, constructing nests surrounded by radially aligned peaks and valleys. Furthermore, they created irregular patterns in the nest comprising fine sand particles. The circular structure not only influences female mate choice but also functions to gather fine sand particles in nests, which are important in female mate choice. Strangely enough, the males never reuse the nest, always constructing a new circular structure at the huge cost of construction. This is because the valleys may not contain sufficient fine sand particles for multiple reproductive cycles.

Simply describing what the fish does, does not explain how or why evolutionary processes would or could bring about such.

[The Barbarian]

From your link:

ALL THE DNA IN OUR CHROMOSOMES IS ESSENTIAL FOR LIFE

Nature  20 October 2004
Your site is quite wrong:

Mice do fine without 'junk DNA'
Mice born without large portions of their 'junk DNA' seem to survive normally. The result contradicts the beliefs of many scientists who have sought to uncover the function of these parts of the genome.

More than 90% the genome of organisms such as mice and humans does not appear to code for any proteins. 

 And now Edward Rubin's team at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California has shown that deleting large sections of non-coding DNA from mice appears not to affect their development, longevity or reproduction.

The team created mice with more than a million base pairs of non-coding DNA missing - equivalent to about 1% of their genome. The animals' organs looked perfectly normal. And of more than 100 tests done on the mice tissues to assess gene activity, only two showed changes. The results are reported in this week's Nature2.

The group has now created mice missing three million base pairs. "We can see no effect in them," Rubin says.
Tough test

Knowles cautions that the study doesn't prove that non-coding DNA has no function. "Those mice were alive, that's what we know about them," she says. "We don't know if they have abnormalities that we don't test for."

David Haussler of the University of California, Santa Cruz, who has investigated why genetic regions are conserved, says that Rubin's study gives no hint that the deleted DNA has a function. But he also believes that non-coding regions may have an effect too subtle to be picked up in the tests to far.

"Survival in the laboratory for a generation or two is not the same as successful competition in the wild for millions of years," he argues. "Darwinian selection is a tougher test."

There seems to be some non-coding DNA that has functions.   But most of it, as shown here, can be removed with no observable effects.    And of course, there's no reason at all why non-coding DNA can't be adapted by evolution to do some kind of function.

Most creationists have given up on this story.    When I was an undergraduate in the 1960s, scientists were investigating functions of non-coding DNA.   

[The Barbarian]

From another of your links, the statement Pasteur was opposed to evolution.   This is false.    He acknowledged the fact.   

The link also says that the fossil record has refuted evolution by a lack of transitionals.    We can address this by a simple challenge.    You give me any two major groups, said to be evolutionarily connected, and I'll see if there's a transitional form between the two.   Which two would you like?

[The Barbarian]

From another of your links:

Darwin's theory is further used to support the belief that ancient humans — Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, and Denisova — did not mix. In fact, based on Darwin's assumptions, most anthropologists claim that modern humans were simply descended from Cro-Magnons, who had exterminated their less-fit adversaries.

This is also false.    The same genetics that shows all organisms have a common descent, shows that humans and Neandertals were subspecies, not separate species, and that many modern humans carry Neandertal DNA.    You can't believe everything you see on the internet, sad as that is.

[The Barbarian]

Role of Huge Geometric Circular Structures in the Reproduction of a Marine Pufferfish

How do evolutionists explain this?

Mutation and natural selection.   

Much more complex behavior than that has been shown to be the result of reflex arcs.   Provisioning wasps burrows, termite nests, and so on have been so determined, often with examples of intermediate behaviors.    Would you like to learn about some of them?

[Amo]

Like you said, you can't believe everything you see on the internet, and your responses are on the internet, as well as that which I have supplied. You will continue your non stop war with the word of God along with all the other evolution cronies, denying that you are at war with that which you blatantly contradict, and I will continue to point out and declare that you are in fact at war with the word of God. God will settle this affair along with all others when He returns.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So, how many millions or billions of years do you reckon we will have to be waiting for the new heaven and new earth that God will create Barbarian? One of us is not telling the truth. That means one of us is a liar. It doesn't matter if we believe the lie, liars end up in the lake of fire. This is according to Him who is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Paul shares the same testimony regarding those who have not the love of the truth and choose to believe lies.

2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[4WD]

So, how many millions or billions of years do you reckon we will have to be waiting for the new heaven and new earth that God will create Barbarian?

What is a million or a billion years to the eternal God?  Absolutely nothing!  (2 Peter 3:8).  That you bring that question into the discussion shows a certain lack of understanding of who and what God is.  How many years did God wait until he created this heaven and earth? Answer - None.  There is no "years" in the heaven of God.

[The Barbarian]

Like you said, you can't believe everything you see on the internet, and your responses are on the internet, as well as that which I have supplied.

I'm citing Nature which is one of the most well-regarded journals in science.   As you see, the facts directly contradict your sources.

You will continue your non stop war with the word of God along with all the other evolution cronies,

As you may have seen, most Christians admit that evolution is consistent with God's word.   It's not consistent with the modern doctrine of YE creationism, but that's man's invention, not God's word.

God will settle this affair along with all others when He returns.

Your salvation does not in any way depend on your opinion of evolution.   Unless you make an idol of creationism, you will be as welcome in heaven as one who accepts that evolution is God's creation.

So, how many millions or billions of years do you reckon we will have to be waiting for the new heaven and new earth that God will create Barbarian?

Jesus says that we will not know until it's upon us.   

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord shall so come, as a thief in the night.


That's good enough for me. 

One of us is not telling the truth. That means one of us is a liar.

I'd prefer to think you are sincere in your belief, and merely mistaken.

It's a very bad idea to add new requirements for salvation.   Let God decide, and accept it His way.

[Michael2012]

God will settle this affair along with all others when He returns.

Your salvation does not in any way depend on your opinion of evolution.   Unless you make an idol of creationism, you will be as welcome in heaven as one who accepts that evolution is God's creation.

This is also like saying that one whose opinion of evolution is God's creation or that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution, unless he make an idol of himself, or of his human intelligence, or of science, will not make it to heaven.

Either way, I find them as being opinions. Let me move on to discuss other matters with you, by initially throwing in a few questions.

Questions:

1. Is it necessary to believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and everything there is, to be saved?
2. Is it necessary to believe that all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, that all things were created BY God, and FOR God, and that God is before all things, and BY Him all things consist, to be saved?

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man? And do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

[The Barbarian]

This is also like saying that one whose opinion of evolution is God's creation or that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution, unless he make an idol of himself, or of his human intelligence, or of science, will not make it to heaven.

If you meant that accepting that God created different kinds of living things by evolution will not cost one his salvation, unless he makes an idol of evolution, you are exactly right.

[quote[1. Is it necessary to believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and everything there is, to be saved?[/quote]

Jesus provided you with a list of things you must do it you want to spend eternity with him.   He summarized them in Matthew 25:31-46.    That's what He says will determine your eternal home.   

2. Is it necessary to believe that all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, that all things were created BY God, and FOR God, and that God is before all things, and BY Him all things consist, to be saved?

See above.   I don't see how you would do it, without accepting that He created all things.  How He created all things is not critical.

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man?

I don't think man's new doctrines are really of any use in salvation.   
 

[4WD]

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man? And do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I assume that you are referring to your understanding of Romans 8 with that question.  The word translated "creation" in Romans 8:19-22 is from the Greek word ktisis.  It is the same as that in Mark 16:15;

Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

I am curious, Michael, being a Christian, do you believe that you need to preach the gospel to that same creation as you have rendered in Romans 8?  If so, do you do it?  And it you do, do you do it openly where other folks can watch to do that?  And if you do, I would really be interested in just a sample of your message to that "creation".

What I am suggesting here is that your interpretation of the passage in Romans 8 is altogether faulty.

[Michael2012]

This is also like saying that one whose opinion of evolution is God's creation or that God created the different kinds of living things by evolution, unless he make an idol of himself, or of his human intelligence, or of science, will not make it to heaven.

If you meant that accepting that God created different kinds of living things by evolution will not cost one his salvation, unless he makes an idol of evolution, you are exactly right.

1. Is it necessary to believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and everything there is, to be saved?

Jesus provided you with a list of things you must do it you want to spend eternity with him.   He summarized them in Matthew 25:31-46.    That's what He says will determine your eternal home. 

It would be nice of you, and not appear evasive, if you'll answer the question with a direct answer. I am not asking for a list of things one must do.

2. Is it necessary to believe that all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, that all things were created BY God, and FOR God, and that God is before all things, and BY Him all things consist, to be saved?

See above.   I don't see how you would do it, without accepting that He created all things.  How He created all things is not critical.

A direct answer would be nice and in order.

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man?

I don't think man's new doctrines are really of any use in salvation.

Please just answer the questions and avoid evading them. Thanks.

[Michael2012]

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man? And do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I assume that you are referring to your understanding of Romans 8 with that question.  The word translated "creation" in Romans 8:19-22 is from the Greek word ktisis.  It is the same as that in Mark 16:15;

Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

I am curious, Michael, being a Christian, do you believe that you need to preach the gospel to that same creation as you have rendered in Romans 8?  If so, do you do it?  And it you do, do you do it openly where other folks can watch to do that?  And if you do, I would really be interested in just a sample of your message to that "creation".

What I am suggesting here is that your interpretation of the passage in Romans 8 is altogether faulty.

Before I get to answer your question, can you answer the questions in the portion of my post that you quoted?

[4WD]

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man? And do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I assume that you are referring to your understanding of Romans 8 with that question.  The word translated "creation" in Romans 8:19-22 is from the Greek word ktisis.  It is the same as that in Mark 16:15;

Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

I am curious, Michael, being a Christian, do you believe that you need to preach the gospel to that same creation as you have rendered in Romans 8?  If so, do you do it?  And it you do, do you do it openly where other folks can watch to do that?  And if you do, I would really be interested in just a sample of your message to that "creation".

What I am suggesting here is that your interpretation of the passage in Romans 8 is altogether faulty.

Before I get to answer your question, can you answer the questions in the portion of my post that you quoted?

I would have thought my answer was apparent. There is absolutely nothing about the physical universe that God created that was changed as a result of Adam's sin.  The "creation" that is spoken of in Romans 8 is mankind, no more, no less.  Same as "creation" in Mark 16:15, as well as Gal 6:15 , Col 1:15, Col 1:23 and  Heb 9:11.

The "corruption" that you think you see in the whole of creation, and not just man, is just as God created it.

[The Barbarian]

It would be nice of you, and not appear evasive, if you'll answer the question with a direct answer.

I gave you Jesus' direct answer.    He tells you specifically what you must do to spend eternity with Him.   Do that, He says, and you will.   Don't do it, and you spend eternity with Satan and his angels.  What more do you want Him to tell you?   Theology won't save you.   Satan is a master theologian.   What will save you is following Jesus.

If this puzzles you, read Luke 10:25-37   Why did Jesus tell His followers to emulate a heretic instead of the thelogically correct Levite?

When you understand that, you'll understand what it is that will bring you salvation.
 

[Amo]

So, how many millions or billions of years do you reckon we will have to be waiting for the new heaven and new earth that God will create Barbarian?

What is a million or a billion years to the eternal God?  Absolutely nothing!  (2 Peter 3:8).  That you bring that question into the discussion shows a certain lack of understanding of who and what God is.  How many years did God wait until he created this heaven and earth? Answer - None.  There is no "years" in the heaven of God.

Yea, but the first time He didn't have all the saints in heaven with Him, whom He had promised a new heaven and a new earth some of which He described. Do you think He'll have them waiting around billions of years for the new heaven and earth to evolve? Or are all those promises and the book of Revelation just like Genesis to you. Like, no one really knows exactly what it means or how very long it might take God to finally bring about these things which He promised. If the new heaven and earth are going to be beyond what we could even begin to imagine, seems like it would take a lot longer for your evolution to finally bring it around. So, what do you think?

[The Barbarian]

Like, no one really knows exactly what it means or how very long it might take God to finally bring about these things which He promised. If the new heaven and earth are going to be beyond what we could even begin to imagine, seems like it would take a lot longer for your evolution to finally bring it around.

Why would you think evolution had anything at all to do with it?    Evolution is part of nature.   What God is promising us is far, far beyond nature.
 

[4WD]

Like, no one really knows exactly what it means or how very long it might take God to finally bring about these things which He promised. If the new heaven and earth are going to be beyond what we could even begin to imagine, seems like it would take a lot longer for your evolution to finally bring it around.

Why would you think evolution had anything at all to do with it?    Evolution is part of nature.   What God is promising us is far, far beyond nature.

[Amo]

So God used evolution the first time, but wont use it the second time, is that it? If every time the bible speaks of the first creation it is referring to evolution as you believe, then why wouldn't the creation of the new heaven and new earth also involve evolution? Why would one have to include it, and the other not?

[AVZ]

So God used evolution the first time, but wont use it the second time, is that it? If every time the bible speaks of the first creation it is referring to evolution as you believe, then why wouldn't the creation of the new heaven and new earth also involve evolution? Why would one have to include it, and the other not?

My goodness...so we will have to wait for another 15 billion years until heaven is ready?