Author Topic: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?  (Read 95913 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #140 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 04:46:29 »
So God used evolution the first time, but wont use it the second time, is that it? If every time the bible speaks of the first creation it is referring to evolution as you believe, then why wouldn't the creation of the new heaven and new earth also involve evolution? Why would one have to include it, and the other not?
Evolution is strictly a physical phenomenon,  It is a process dealing with procreation, not creation.

Offline th1b.taylor

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #141 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 11:38:39 »
What a perfecly simple minded answer.  Creation is found at the root of the word procreation.  It is greatly dismissed as a fairytale but My God, the God of Creation created everything in six days. (Gen. 1)

Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #142 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 11:46:16 »

What a perfecly simple minded answer.  Creation is found at the root of the word procreation.
Now that is funny to the point of stupid.  Do you know the difference in meaning between create and procreate?  Apparently not.

Offline jeager

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #143 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 12:11:10 »
Let me see now.
The Earth was created in 6 literal days.
God rest on the 7th literal day.
Perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect.

Now about that swamp land I want to sell ya.

Once again let me remind some people that the Genesis account was written for people
with no notion of science what so ever.
It was written BY people with no notion of science at all.

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #143 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 12:11:10 »
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Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #144 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 12:16:17 »
Quote
So God used evolution the first time,

In this world, He does.

Quote
but wont use it the second time, is that it?

It only works in nature.   Not anywhere else.

Quote
If every time the bible speaks of the first creation it is referring to evolution as you believe

God doesn't mention evolution, or gravity, or protons in the Bible.   

Quote
then why wouldn't the creation of the new heaven and new earth also involve evolution?

Because it only works in nature.  Won't work beyond that.

 

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #144 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 12:16:17 »



Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #145 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 12:17:38 »
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Evolution is strictly a physical phenomenon,

Precisely.   It won't be in heaven, because Heaven is not part of nature.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #146 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 13:43:57 »

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man? And do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I assume that you are referring to your understanding of Romans 8 with that question.  The word translated "creation" in Romans 8:19-22 is from the Greek word ktisis.  It is the same as that in Mark 16:15;

Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

I am curious, Michael, being a Christian, do you believe that you need to preach the gospel to that same creation as you have rendered in Romans 8?  If so, do you do it?  And it you do, do you do it openly where other folks can watch to do that?  And if you do, I would really be interested in just a sample of your message to that "creation".

What I am suggesting here is that your interpretation of the passage in Romans 8 is altogether faulty.

Before I get to answer your question, can you answer the questions in the portion of my post that you quoted?
I would have thought my answer was apparent. There is absolutely nothing about the physical universe that God created that was changed as a result of Adam's sin.  The "creation" that is spoken of in Romans 8 is mankind, no more, no less.  Same as "creation" in Mark 16:15, as well as Gal 6:15 , Col 1:15, Col 1:23 and  Heb 9:11.

The "corruption" that you think you see in the whole of creation, and not just man, is just as God created it.

Romans 8:19-23
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For  the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation[/b] groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

In v.19, it speaks of the creation as to eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. And in v.20, that it was subjected to futility. And that it says, not willingly. If the creation is mankind, v.19 would be false, in that, it would mean that mankind waits for the revealing of the sons of God, and that with eagerness. The atheists don't, for one, among others, which will altogether make v.19 false. Another is that, it will render v.20 as saying that mankind was forcibly subjected, and that to futility, which we know is false. And verse 21 would then be saying that mankind will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That would also be false, in that, only the children of God will be delivered and made free from corruption.  And finally, in v.23, which says "we also" tells us that the "we" is not included in the creation that is spoken of in vs.19-22.

My take on the creation in v.19-21 is, it refers to all of creation, excluding mankind.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #147 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 20:40:42 »
Hmm... We can either believe that mankind eagerly awaits the revealing of the sons of God, or we can believe that rocks and snails and trees are eagerly awaiting that.   Seems to be that the latter interpretation is obviously false.


Offline Amo

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #148 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 22:01:22 »
Is 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.


Is 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.


2 Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


How long do those of you who preach evolution think it will take to bring about the new heaven and new earth? Will this require evolution again or not, and why or why not? Do you believe this world will be destroyed and a new heaven and earth created for the saved? Or is this all a fairy tail to you as the first account of creation and the flood are to you?

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #149 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 00:04:24 »
Quote
How long do those of you who preach evolution think it will take to bring about the new heaven and new earth?

Why would it matter?    He chose to do this world over a long period of time.   What if He does it different next time?    Should we be offended?

Quote
Will this require evolution

Evolution is part of nature.   And the world to come is not natural.   It's a mistake to impose what you know about this world on the world to come. 

Quote
Or is this all a fairy tail to you as the first account of creation and the flood are to you?

I don't think that your misunderstandings about what we believe are holding you back as much as your inability to clearly explain what you believe.

« Last Edit: Fri May 12, 2017 - 00:06:52 by The Barbarian »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #150 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 00:45:41 »
Hmm... We can either believe that mankind eagerly awaits the revealing of the sons of God, or we can believe that rocks and snails and trees are eagerly awaiting that.   Seems to be that the latter interpretation is obviously false.

Romans 8:19-23
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For  the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Paul personified creation as leaning forward eagerly in anticipation of the great day when God will fully redeem it too. God subjected the whole creation to futility. The "whole creation" (excluding man, v. 23) acts as though it is going through birth "pains," in that it is straining to produce its fruit. Its sufferings are both a result of past events indicating their being under bondage of corruption, and an indication of future deliverance.  The sons of God share this sense of groaning and anticipation that Paul described the whole creation as feeling.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #151 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 00:59:11 »
Quote
It would be nice of you, and not appear evasive, if you'll answer the question with a direct answer.

I gave you Jesus' direct answer.    He tells you specifically what you must do to spend eternity with Him.   Do that, He says, and you will.   Don't do it, and you spend eternity with Satan and his angels.  What more do you want Him to tell you?   Theology won't save you.   Satan is a master theologian.   What will save you is following Jesus.

If this puzzles you, read Luke 10:25-37   Why did Jesus tell His followers to emulate a heretic instead of the thelogically correct Levite?

When you understand that, you'll understand what it is that will bring you salvation.
 

Let me take us back to my questions:

1. Is it necessary to believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and everything there is, to be saved?

Let me guess then. Your answer is Yes?

2. Is it necessary to believe that all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, that all things were created BY God, and FOR God, and that God is before all things, and BY Him all things consist, to be saved?

Your answer is Yes?

3. Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility?

Let me guess then again. Your answer is No?

4. Being a Christian, do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man?

Let me guess then again. Your answer is No?

5. Being a Christian, do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

Let me guess then again. Your answer is No?

There. Did I guess you right? 

Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #152 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 06:16:14 »

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man? And do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I assume that you are referring to your understanding of Romans 8 with that question.  The word translated "creation" in Romans 8:19-22 is from the Greek word ktisis.  It is the same as that in Mark 16:15;

Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

I am curious, Michael, being a Christian, do you believe that you need to preach the gospel to that same creation as you have rendered in Romans 8?  If so, do you do it?  And it you do, do you do it openly where other folks can watch to do that?  And if you do, I would really be interested in just a sample of your message to that "creation".

What I am suggesting here is that your interpretation of the passage in Romans 8 is altogether faulty.

Before I get to answer your question, can you answer the questions in the portion of my post that you quoted?
I would have thought my answer was apparent. There is absolutely nothing about the physical universe that God created that was changed as a result of Adam's sin.  The "creation" that is spoken of in Romans 8 is mankind, no more, no less.  Same as "creation" in Mark 16:15, as well as Gal 6:15 , Col 1:15, Col 1:23 and  Heb 9:11.

The "corruption" that you think you see in the whole of creation, and not just man, is just as God created it.

Romans 8:19-23
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For  the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation[/b] groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

In v.19, it speaks of the creation as to eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. And in v.20, that it was subjected to futility. And that it says, not willingly. If the creation is mankind, v.19 would be false, in that, it would mean that mankind waits for the revealing of the sons of God, and that with eagerness. The atheists don't, for one, among others, which will altogether make v.19 false. Another is that, it will render v.20 as saying that mankind was forcibly subjected, and that to futility, which we know is false. And verse 21 would then be saying that mankind will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That would also be false, in that, only the children of God will be delivered and made free from corruption.  And finally, in v.23, which says "we also" tells us that the "we" is not included in the creation that is spoken of in vs.19-22.

My take on the creation in v.19-21 is, it refers to all of creation, excluding mankind.

And your take on the creation in v.19-21 would be obviously wrong.  Please explain how the creation, other than mankind, could eagerly wait for anything.  How does the sun, the moon, and the stars eagerly await the revealing of the sons of God.  What on earth could that possibly mean?  And just what is the corruption (v.21) that is spoken of there?  When iron and oxygen combine to form rust, that is corrosion, that is chemistry.  When you eat food and digest it to form the stuff of your body and to provide the energy necessary, that is a chemical corrosion process.  Is that corruption?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #153 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 06:48:59 »

Being a Christian, do you believe or not that creation was subjected to futility? And do you believe or not that the creation is in bondage to corruption, and not only man? And do you believe or not that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

I assume that you are referring to your understanding of Romans 8 with that question.  The word translated "creation" in Romans 8:19-22 is from the Greek word ktisis.  It is the same as that in Mark 16:15;

Mar 16:15  And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

I am curious, Michael, being a Christian, do you believe that you need to preach the gospel to that same creation as you have rendered in Romans 8?  If so, do you do it?  And it you do, do you do it openly where other folks can watch to do that?  And if you do, I would really be interested in just a sample of your message to that "creation".

What I am suggesting here is that your interpretation of the passage in Romans 8 is altogether faulty.

Before I get to answer your question, can you answer the questions in the portion of my post that you quoted?
I would have thought my answer was apparent. There is absolutely nothing about the physical universe that God created that was changed as a result of Adam's sin.  The "creation" that is spoken of in Romans 8 is mankind, no more, no less.  Same as "creation" in Mark 16:15, as well as Gal 6:15 , Col 1:15, Col 1:23 and  Heb 9:11.

The "corruption" that you think you see in the whole of creation, and not just man, is just as God created it.

Romans 8:19-23
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For  the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation[/b] groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

In v.19, it speaks of the creation as to eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. And in v.20, that it was subjected to futility. And that it says, not willingly. If the creation is mankind, v.19 would be false, in that, it would mean that mankind waits for the revealing of the sons of God, and that with eagerness. The atheists don't, for one, among others, which will altogether make v.19 false. Another is that, it will render v.20 as saying that mankind was forcibly subjected, and that to futility, which we know is false. And verse 21 would then be saying that mankind will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That would also be false, in that, only the children of God will be delivered and made free from corruption.  And finally, in v.23, which says "we also" tells us that the "we" is not included in the creation that is spoken of in vs.19-22.

My take on the creation in v.19-21 is, it refers to all of creation, excluding mankind.

And your take on the creation in v.19-21 would be obviously wrong.  Please explain how the creation, other than mankind, could eagerly wait for anything.  How does the sun, the moon, and the stars eagerly await the revealing of the sons of God.  What on earth could that possibly mean?  And just what is the corruption (v.21) that is spoken of there?  When iron and oxygen combine to form rust, that is corrosion, that is chemistry.  When you eat food and digest it to form the stuff of your body and to provide the energy necessary, that is a chemical corrosion process.  Is that corruption?

Paul personified creation as leaning forward eagerly in anticipation of the great day when God will fully redeem it too. God subjected the whole creation to futility. The "whole creation" (excluding man, v. 23) acts as though it is going through birth "pains," in that it is straining to produce its fruit. Its sufferings are both a result of past events indicating their being under bondage of corruption, and an indication of future deliverance.  The sons of God share this sense of groaning and anticipation that Paul described the whole creation as feeling.

Paul, with the passage, imparts to us, in like sense as he had in Rom. 1, that even the creation speaks out and testify of the invisible things of God, but here even about the blessed hope of redemption of the sons of God, as by that, it too will be delivered from its bondage to corruption and freed from its subjection to futility. This he have done so, in connection to the sufferings of the children of in the present time, that such are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be soon revealed in them.

Reading the passage, what is clear about creation is that it was subjected to futility and is in bondage to corruption. And that it will be set free and be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. The questions really are:

What can you understand of creation with its being subjected to futility?
What can you understand of creation with its being in bondage to corruption?
What can you say of creation, how it will be when it has been delivered from the bondage of corruption?


Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #154 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 07:01:16 »

Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being subjected to futility?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.

Quote
Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being in bondage to corruption?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.  The corruption is in man's spirit due to trespasses and sins.

Quote
Q: What can you say of creation, how it will be when it has been delivered from the bondage of corruption?
A: Only in the trespasses and sins of man is there corruption.  Everything else is just as God created it  --  the entire universe and the natural laws that govern the universe.  There is no bondage or corruption there.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #155 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 07:29:13 »

Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being subjected to futility?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.

Okay, so, what can you understand of mankind with its being subjected to futility?

And by the way, was mankind subjected to futility? 


Quote
Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being in bondage to corruption?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.  The corruption is in man's spirit due to trespasses and sins.

Quote
Q: What can you say of creation, how it will be when it has been delivered from the bondage of corruption?
A: Only in the trespasses and sins of man is there corruption.  Everything else is just as God created it  --  the entire universe and the natural laws that govern the universe.  There is no bondage or corruption there.

So, how do you refute and explain what I said in my previous post with regards to what your interpretation that creation in the passage refers to mankind? Let me quote the relevant post:

"In v.19, it speaks of the creation as to eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. And in v.20, that it was subjected to futility. And that it says, not willingly. If the creation is mankind, v.19 would be false, in that, it would mean that mankind waits for the revealing of the sons of God, and that with eagerness. The atheists don't, for one, among others, which will altogether make v.19 false. Another is that, it will render v.20 as saying that mankind was forcibly subjected, and that to futility, which we know is false. And verse 21 would then be saying that mankind will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That would also be false, in that, only the children of God will be delivered and made free from corruption.  And finally, in v.23, which says "we also" tells us that the "we" is not included in the creation that is spoken of in vs.19-22."

Side Comment: If I'm not mistaken, I think that your problem with this passage is connected with your belief that the Fall of Adam has no effect on the physical, and only on the spiritual.
« Last Edit: Fri May 12, 2017 - 10:41:28 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #156 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 07:54:22 »

Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being subjected to futility?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.

Okay, so, what can you understand of mankind with its being subjected to futility?

And by the way, was mankind subjected to futility? 

The futility is the condemnation,due to trespasses and sins, to eternity apart from God i.e, in Hell.

{quote]

Quote
Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being in bondage to corruption?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.  The corruption is in man's spirit due to trespasses and sins.

Quote
Q: What can you say of creation, how it will be when it has been delivered from the bondage of corruption?
A: Only in the trespasses and sins of man is there corruption.  Everything else is just as God created it  --  the entire universe and the natural laws that govern the universe.  There is no bondage or corruption there.

So, how do you refute and explain what I said in my previous post with regards to what your interpretation that creation in the passage refers to mankind? Let me quote the relevant post:

"In v.19, it speaks of the creation as to eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. And in v.20, that it was subjected to futility. And that it says, not willingly. If the creation is mankind, v.19 would be false, in that, it would mean that mankind waits for the revealing of the sons of God, and that with eagerness. The atheists don't, for one, among others, which will altogether make v.19 false. Another is that, it will render v.20 as saying that mankind was forcibly subjected, and that to futility, which we know is false. And verse 21 would then be saying that mankind will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That would also be false, in that, only the children of God will be delivered and made free from corruption.  And finally, in v.23, which says "we also" tells us that the "we" is not included in the creation that is spoken of in vs.19-22."

Side Comment: If I'm not mistaken, I think that your problem with this passage is connected with your belief that the Fall of Adam has no effect on the physical, and only on the spiritual.

How do I explain it?  Quite simply, you are wrong.  Being anxious for anything is not something that any other than mankind can do.  The fall of Adam has no effect on our physical being or our spiritual being.  And that is not my problem.  That you do not understand that is your problem.

Offline Amo

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #157 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 08:07:31 »
Quote
How long do those of you who preach evolution think it will take to bring about the new heaven and new earth?

Why would it matter?    He chose to do this world over a long period of time.   What if He does it different next time?    Should we be offended?

Quote
Will this require evolution

Evolution is part of nature.   And the world to come is not natural.   It's a mistake to impose what you know about this world on the world to come. 

Quote
Or is this all a fairy tail to you as the first account of creation and the flood are to you?

I don't think that your misunderstandings about what we believe are holding you back as much as your inability to clearly explain what you believe.

In other words, your not going to answer the questions. The answers would begin to reveal just how little of scripture you actually believe. The implications of what you have chosen to believe above and over the word of God, go much deeper and cause far more damage to the faith, than you are willing admit or investigate in depth. 

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #158 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 10:36:52 »
People of the World do not believe Matthew 18:3, AMO.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #159 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 11:10:54 »

Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being subjected to futility?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.

Okay, so, what can you understand of mankind with its being subjected to futility?

And by the way, was mankind subjected to futility? 

The futility is the condemnation,due to trespasses and sins, to eternity apart from God i.e, in Hell.

Futility: The quality of producing no valuable effect, or of coming to nothing; uselessness.
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Q:  What can you understand of creation with its being in bondage to corruption?
A:  Mankind and only mankind.  The corruption is in man's spirit due to trespasses and sins.

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Q: What can you say of creation, how it will be when it has been delivered from the bondage of corruption?
A: Only in the trespasses and sins of man is there corruption.  Everything else is just as God created it  --  the entire universe and the natural laws that govern the universe.  There is no bondage or corruption there.

So, how do you refute and explain what I said in my previous post with regards to what your interpretation that creation in the passage refers to mankind? Let me quote the relevant post:

"In v.19, it speaks of the creation as to eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. And in v.20, that it was subjected to futility. And that it says, not willingly. If the creation is mankind, v.19 would be false, in that, it would mean that mankind waits for the revealing of the sons of God, and that with eagerness. The atheists don't, for one, among others, which will altogether make v.19 false. Another is that, it will render v.20 as saying that mankind was forcibly subjected, and that to futility, which we know is false. And verse 21 would then be saying that mankind will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That would also be false, in that, only the children of God will be delivered and made free from corruption.  And finally, in v.23, which says "we also" tells us that the "we" is not included in the creation that is spoken of in vs.19-22."

Side Comment: If I'm not mistaken, I think that your problem with this passage is connected with your belief that the Fall of Adam has no effect on the physical, and only on the spiritual.

How do I explain it?  Quite simply, you are wrong.  Being anxious for anything is not something that any other than mankind can do.  The fall of Adam has no effect on our physical being or our spiritual being.  And that is not my problem.  That you do not understand that is your problem.

So all you have for a refutation is the thought that other than mankind, being anxious for anything is not possible with anything else.

Well then, so goes the passage with your take of creation as being mankind. 

By the way, do you know about a figure of speech in which an inanimate object or abstract idea is represented as animated, or endowed with personality? This is somewhat what Paul used in that passage regarding creation. Else, if that is not the case, and take it to be plain and literal, so then will the passage be rendered absurd, ridiculous and false.

I have explained this in reply#153, which I think you have ignored. Here it is:

Paul personified creation as leaning forward eagerly in anticipation of the great day when God will fully redeem it too. God subjected the whole creation to futility. The "whole creation" (excluding man, v. 23) acts as though it is going through birth "pains," in that it is straining to produce its fruit. Its sufferings are both a result of past events indicating their being under bondage of corruption, and an indication of future deliverance.  The sons of God share this sense of groaning and anticipation that Paul described the whole creation as feeling.

Paul, with the passage, imparts to us, in like sense as he had in Rom. 1, that even the creation speaks out and testify of the invisible things of God, but here even about the blessed hope of redemption of the sons of God, as by that, it too will be delivered from its bondage to corruption and freed from its subjection to futility. This he have done so, in connection to the sufferings of the children of in the present time, that such are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be soon revealed in them.

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #160 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 11:40:04 »
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Evolution is strictly a physical phenomenon,

Precisely.   It won't be in heaven, because Heaven is not part of nature.

Who says so and how would you know?

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #161 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 17:18:14 »
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In other words, your not going to answer the questions.

Rather, you don't like the answers.    The amount of time God used in this world to create things has nothing at all to do with the next.    We live in a world created in time, but that's not what you have in eternity.   


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The answers would begin to reveal just how little of scripture you actually believe.

I don't wish to be unkind, but it seems to me that if you just accepted His word as it is, you'd have no problem understanding how the physical universe fits into His will.

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The implications of what you have chosen to believe above and over the word of God

I accept it precisely because I accept the word of God first.    My one objection to YE creationism, is that it puts one more obstacle between unbelievers and God.    If they see someone preaching that they must believe something demonstrably false, then they walk away.   Now, it's true that there are many YE creationists who admit that evolution/creationism has no bearing on one's salvation, and that both views are consistent with Christian belief.   If this is your view, then you do no damage to the faith.

If you insist that only YE is acceptable for salvation, then you are opposing God's desire that no man be lost.

And if so, you're not serving God.   

Think about it, at least.


Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #162 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 17:40:10 »
Barbarian agrees:
Precisely.   It won't be in heaven, because Heaven is not part of nature.

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Who says so and how would you know?

Heaven is such that those who achieve it, have absolute subordination of their bodies (yes, we will have bodies) to their spirits.   As Jesus appeared after the crucifixion, with a physical body he invited his disciples to examine for themselves, yet was able to move through a wall with that same body, so we will have the same subtility.

John 20:19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. ... [20] And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

Our bodies clearly don't have that kind of ability now.   But in the next world, they shall.

God constantly contrasts Heaven and Earth as two entirely different places.    Yes, Heaven is a state of being, but it is also a place.   If one has a body, then one has a location, hence a place.

It will not be like anything we have ever encountered; it will be an entirely different state and existence:
1 Corinthians 2:9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

So no one in this world has ever encountered anything remotely like it.

1 Corinthians 13:12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known.




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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #163 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 21:38:43 »
Barbarian agrees:
Precisely.   It won't be in heaven, because Heaven is not part of nature.

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Who says so and how would you know?

Heaven is such that those who achieve it, have absolute subordination of their bodies (yes, we will have bodies) to their spirits.   As Jesus appeared after the crucifixion, with a physical body he invited his disciples to examine for themselves, yet was able to move through a wall with that same body, so we will have the same subtility.

John 20:19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. ... [20] And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

Our bodies clearly don't have that kind of ability now.   But in the next world, they shall.

God constantly contrasts Heaven and Earth as two entirely different places.    Yes, Heaven is a state of being, but it is also a place.   If one has a body, then one has a location, hence a place.

It will not be like anything we have ever encountered; it will be an entirely different state and existence:
1 Corinthians 2:9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

So no one in this world has ever encountered anything remotely like it.

1 Corinthians 13:12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known.

But isn't the fact that Jesus did all these "heavenly things" here on earth, even ate food in His new body, proof that heaven and nature can go together perfectly?
Who says there is no nature in heaven?

Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #164 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 07:09:39 »
Futility: The quality of producing no valuable effect, or of coming to nothing; uselessness.
And that is how you view God's creation? Interesting.  That sort of makes your notion of the Romans one reference to creation as symbolism or a figure of speech to be absolute nonsense.  How could something you proclaim to be useless, producing no valuable effect and coming to nothing enlighten anyone about its creator God?  The obvious implication of Paul's discussion in Romans 1 is quite the contrary.  It is the gloriousness, the grandeur, the majesty, the greatness of creation that speaks of its creator.  The futility that you ascribe to God's creation does no such thing.

Seriously Michael, your thoughts of God imparting original sin upon the whole of mankind because of Adam's sin and the ascribing to His creation the futility you see in it doesn't strike me as a very reverent view.  I see no glory to God expressed in either thought; in fact quite the opposite.  But perhaps that is just me.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #165 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 08:40:16 »
Futility: The quality of producing no valuable effect, or of coming to nothing; uselessness.
And that is how you view God's creation? Interesting.  That sort of makes your notion of the Romans one reference to creation as symbolism or a figure of speech to be absolute nonsense.  How could something you proclaim to be useless, producing no valuable effect and coming to nothing enlighten anyone about its creator God?  The obvious implication of Paul's discussion in Romans 1 is quite the contrary.  It is the gloriousness, the grandeur, the majesty, the greatness of creation that speaks of its creator.  The futility that you ascribe to God's creation does no such thing.

Seriously Michael, your thoughts of God imparting original sin upon the whole of mankind because of Adam's sin and the ascribing to His creation the futility you see in it doesn't strike me as a very reverent view.  I see no glory to God expressed in either thought; in fact quite the opposite.  But perhaps that is just me.

Easy. First, I don't get to choose what scriptures says 4WD.

Second, what could be said of the futility spoken of in Rom.8, that creation was subjected to, is obviously not with regards to its testimony about its creator, but with regards to its having been under its bondage to corruption, that it never reaches the perfection that God originally intended it to achieve.

4WD: <<Seriously Michael, your thoughts of God imparting original sin upon the whole of mankind because of Adam's sin and the ascribing to His creation the futility you see in it doesn't strike me as a very reverent view.  I see no glory to God expressed in either thought; in fact quite the opposite.  But perhaps that is just me.>>

It's not my thoughts of God, but what is in scriptures. The fall of Adam brought sin into the world, into mankind. Man was taken out from the presence of God, have to work for his food, and the woman to bear children with much pain, the snake was cursed, and so too is the ground, the earth. All these were not God's intention for man, and the rest of creation. Will I complain to God that He had to subject the creation as He had only because Adam sinned? Perhaps, you'd say you see no glory to God expressed in this. Now, Adam and Eve multiplied, until the generation of Noah. In Noah's time, men were so wicked that God destroyed them all, except Noah, who found grace from God, and those in the ark with him. But, not only was man destroyed, but literally, the rest of creation. Will I again complain to God that He had to destroy even the rest of creation, because of wicked man? And perhaps again, you'd say you see no glory to God expressed in this. Well, you can say that, as you do. But, that is what the just and righteous God did.

And so, you are right in saying "But perhaps that is just me". 

So, if you find my view as something unacceptable to you, for the reasons you here expressed, then perhaps, you can look into your view that creation there in Rom. 8:19-23  refers to mankind, and tell us what it makes of the passage as saying, and if it does not stand contrary to other truths in scriptures. And I already have shown you what it makes of the passage. And it makes it false. If you say it does not make it false, please show and explain it to us then. I'd be happy to know, for up till now, you have evaded in addressing it.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #166 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 09:01:07 »
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But isn't the fact that Jesus did all these "heavenly things" here on earth, even ate food in His new body, proof that heaven and nature can go together perfectly?

It's proof that God can set aside the laws by which this world works, when He wishes to do so.   It's His creation, of course He can.   But that just puts a finer point in it; nature will never be what Heaven is.


 

Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #167 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 09:18:23 »
Second, what could be said of the futility spoken of in Rom.8, that creation was subjected to, is obviously not with regards to its testimony about its creator, but with regards to its having been under its bondage to corruption, that it never reaches the perfection that God originally intended it to achieve.
  What corruption are you talking about; what bondage to corruption are you talking about?
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It's not my thoughts of God, but what is in scriptures. The fall of Adam brought sin into the world, into mankind. Man was taken out from the presence of God, have to work for his food, and the woman to bear children with much pain, the snake was cursed, and so too is the ground, the earth.
What curse of the ground are you talking about?  The thorns and thistles?   What curse of the earth are you talking about?

You seem always to read into Scripture was is not there  --  on just about every topic on which you post.

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #168 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 12:39:15 »
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But isn't the fact that Jesus did all these "heavenly things" here on earth, even ate food in His new body, proof that heaven and nature can go together perfectly?

It's proof that God can set aside the laws by which this world works, when He wishes to do so.   It's His creation, of course He can.   But that just puts a finer point in it; nature will never be what Heaven is.

and how does that support your claim that there is no nature in heaven?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #169 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 13:30:41 »
Second, what could be said of the futility spoken of in Rom.8, that creation was subjected to, is obviously not with regards to its testimony about its creator, but with regards to its having been under its bondage to corruption, that it never reaches the perfection that God originally intended it to achieve.
  What corruption are you talking about; what bondage to corruption are you talking about?
Quote
It's not my thoughts of God, but what is in scriptures. The fall of Adam brought sin into the world, into mankind. Man was taken out from the presence of God, have to work for his food, and the woman to bear children with much pain, the snake was cursed, and so too is the ground, the earth.
What curse of the ground are you talking about?  The thorns and thistles?   What curse of the earth are you talking about?

You seem always to read into Scripture was is not there  --  on just about every topic on which you post.
<<The fall of Adam brought sin into the world, into mankind.>>

Is this not in your Bible?

<< Man was taken out from the presence of God, have to work for his food, and the woman to bear children with much pain, the snake was cursed, and so too is the ground, the earth.>>

Is this not in your Bible?

If you just read Gen. 1-2, how the ground or the earth is said to bring forth all that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food, before it was cursed. Because of Adam's sin, God cursed the ground, that it bring forth thorns and thistles. And that for the sake of Adam. Look around what has become of the earth today, and that, as it was for Adam when he sinned, all for the sake of man because man sinned.

With regards every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, in the beginning, did God not given every green herb for meat? And because of the sins of man, were they not cursed? Were they not later been made food for man, killed and eaten? Look around, what has become of them?

Can't you see this corruption that is upon creation because of sin, of sinful man? Can't you see creation is under bondage to this? Can't you the futility that they have been subjected to? If you don't, then perhaps you need to look again.
« Last Edit: Sat May 13, 2017 - 13:36:21 by Michael2012 »

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #170 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:58:29 »

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and how does that support your claim that there is no nature in heaven?

That wasn't my claim.   I'm pointing out that the physical universe is not heaven, and that things work differently there.   

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #171 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 15:58:10 »
We are all human beings
flesh and bones
All I can say is.,.,,...,......,...,.,...,
Love the stranger as thyself (:-  ::announcment::

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #172 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 16:50:56 »
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In other words, your not going to answer the questions.

Rather, you don't like the answers.    The amount of time God used in this world to create things has nothing at all to do with the next.    We live in a world created in time, but that's not what you have in eternity.   


Quote
The answers would begin to reveal just how little of scripture you actually believe.

I don't wish to be unkind, but it seems to me that if you just accepted His word as it is, you'd have no problem understanding how the physical universe fits into His will.

Quote
The implications of what you have chosen to believe above and over the word of God

I accept it precisely because I accept the word of God first.    My one objection to YE creationism, is that it puts one more obstacle between unbelievers and God.    If they see someone preaching that they must believe something demonstrably false, then they walk away.   Now, it's true that there are many YE creationists who admit that evolution/creationism has no bearing on one's salvation, and that both views are consistent with Christian belief.   If this is your view, then you do no damage to the faith.

If you insist that only YE is acceptable for salvation, then you are opposing God's desire that no man be lost.

And if so, you're not serving God.   

Think about it, at least.

There is nothing to think about. There is truth. All who choose to reject truth in favor of deception will be lost. This will be their own doing, not God's.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #173 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 18:25:35 »

<<The fall of Adam brought sin into the world, into mankind.>>

Is this not in your Bible?
What might have happened as a result of Adam's disobedience was completely undone as a result of Jesus obedience.  That is in my Bible.
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<< Man was taken out from the presence of God, have to work for his food, and the woman to bear children with much pain, the snake was cursed, and so too is the ground, the earth.>>

Is this not in your Bible?
Man [Adam] was ejected from the Garden.  The result of the curse of the ground is thorns and thistles.    Yes, the woman shall bear children in pain and the snake was cursed.  From that you get that the universe was subjected to the bondage of corruption?? What a joke.  As I said, you read far more into the Scriptures than the Scriptures ever say.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: The empty-headed myth of Evolution
« Reply #174 on: Sat May 13, 2017 - 21:54:48 »
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There is nothing to think about. There is truth. All who choose to reject truth in favor of deception will be lost.

Fortunately, you're wrong about this.   There is absolutely nothing that says the way you think God created the diversity of life matters to your salvation.   It's a modern doctrine, it's not a Biblical doctrine, and it's false.    I'm not trying to be unkind.   I really am not.  But this is a doctrine that is damaging to the church and to Christian faith.