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Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2415 on: Sun Jun 24, 2018 - 21:33:12 »
I think Barbarian the scientist, is mistaken here that life is created by God.
Let's take the case of man. God created man, not life. The life in the man, so that he lives, was not created by God but was given by God.

If God did not create life...then who did?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2415 on: Sun Jun 24, 2018 - 21:33:12 »

Online Alan

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2416 on: Sun Jun 24, 2018 - 21:52:13 »
No Sir. That is not what saves. It is God that saves. Loving God and fellow man is the result of God's salvation of one, not the ticket. It is what a child of God does.


That is exactly what Barbarian was alluding to; our requirements for salvation, not how it happens.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2416 on: Sun Jun 24, 2018 - 21:52:13 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2417 on: Sun Jun 24, 2018 - 22:34:05 »

That is exactly what Barbarian was alluding to; our requirements for salvation, not how it happens.

I am not sure if I agree.
If evolution is not the way it happened, and made a point that scripture should not be read literally, and because of that people have wandered from the gospel...we most certainly are responsible.
We are only to promote one thing, and that's the truth.

In my book the evolution theory is a non-Christian theory and a dilution of Gods Word.
God tells us how He did it, and He even tells us in how much time He did it.
We have decided with our feeble minds and fallible technology that it was not how He did it.
We are challenging Gods Word and declare it false. That too is a matter of the heart.

We can declare if this is a salvation issue all we want. God may not agree with us.

Online Michael2012

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2418 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 05:57:57 »
If God did not create life...then who did?

Life is inherent in God. It eternally exist with and in Him. He is the source of it. He gives it to whomever He wills. And He did when He created the living creatures.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2418 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 05:57:57 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2419 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 06:14:44 »
Life is inherent in God. It eternally exist with and in Him.
That is typical Michael2012 irrational thinking.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2419 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 06:14:44 »



Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2420 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 06:35:56 »
Life is inherent in God. It eternally exist with and in Him. He is the source of it. He gives it to whomever He wills. And He did when He created the living creatures.

Actually you do not know for sure if God is "alive" in the same way we are "alive".
See power exists, but power is not alive. Consciousness also exists, but consciousness is not a living thing.
We know that God is a conscious, powerful being...but we don not know if the life force in God is at all similar to ours.
So God could have created life that is different from His life, something He sustains and feeds.

This is not a strange notion. We can make the same comparison between us and plants.
Plants are also alive, but its a different kind of life from humans and animals.
Which means there is a difference between life and life.

Besides, are you making the same argument for all the other "shared" attributes man has with God?
For example God can see, man can also see...hence sight was not created, it was given?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2421 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 07:07:30 »
Besides, are you making the same argument for all the other "shared" attributes man has with God?
For example God can see, man can also see...hence sight was not created, it was given?
I agree with most of what you said here but you need to be a little careful.  When you say that God can see, what do you mean.  Seeing as we see is a physical activity.  It is a physical response of the physical receptors in the eye to a rather narrow band of wave lengths of electromagnetic energy. I rather suspect there is nothing like that at all in God's "seeing".  Same with hearing, smelling, etc.  The same is true of life.  Life as we know it is a physical attribute.  Even the term "eternal life" is a figure of speech, a metaphor, to denote a "condition" of existence in the spiritual realm.  We really have no idea or concept of what "life" means with respect to the spiritual realm.

Online Michael2012

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2422 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 10:53:33 »
Actually you do not know for sure if God is "alive" in the same way we are "alive".
See power exists, but power is not alive. Consciousness also exists, but consciousness is not a living thing.
We know that God is a conscious, powerful being...but we don not know if the life force in God is at all similar to ours.
So God could have created life that is different from His life, something He sustains and feeds.

This is not a strange notion. We can make the same comparison between us and plants.
Plants are also alive, but its a different kind of life from humans and animals.
Which means there is a difference between life and life.

Besides, are you making the same argument for all the other "shared" attributes man has with God?
For example God can see, man can also see...hence sight was not created, it was given?


Life as spoken in scriptures is not how and what science defines it. 

Quote
Plants are also alive, but its a different kind of life from humans and animals.


I am not talking about the kind of life, but about life. Besides, are plants living things according to scriptures or according to science? 

Quote
Besides, are you making the same argument for all the other "shared" attributes man has with God?
For example God can see, man can also see...hence sight was not created, it was given?

No I am not.

Online Michael2012

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2423 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 11:09:59 »
Life as we know it is a physical attribute.

I can see now that we know life differently. Life, as I know it from scriptures, is not a physical attribute. If it were, scripture would not say that God has life, for God is spirit. So, to the contrary, life is not a physical attribute but is spiritual.

We really have no idea or concept of what "life" means with respect to the spiritual realm.

1 John 1:1-3
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2424 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 11:20:00 »
If God did not create life...then who did?

The answer would be obvious. Life is not created. It is eternal as God is eternal. In fact, scriptures says:

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2425 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 12:35:15 »
I can see now that we know life differently. Life, as I know it from scriptures, is not a physical attribute. If it were, scripture would not say that God has life, for God is spirit. So, to the contrary, life is not a physical attribute but is spiritual.
Again, you have presented a typical irrational Michael2012 type of statement.  The only "life" you have any real understanding of is physical life.  Spiritual "life" is described or presented in Scripture only in allegory with physical life.  Outside of that, no one really has a clue about it whatsoever; not the smartest man in the world and certainly not you or me.

And by the way, the Bible never says that "God has life" as you claim; at least it does not in the many versions that I have available to me.

Online Michael2012

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2426 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 13:13:56 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 11:09:59
I can see now that we know life differently. Life, as I know it from scriptures, is not a physical attribute. If it were, scripture would not say that God has life, for God is spirit. So, to the contrary, life is not a physical attribute but is spiritual.

Again, you have presented a typical irrational Michael2012 type of statement.  The only "life" you have any real understanding of is physical life.  Spiritual "life" is described or presented in Scripture only in allegory with physical life.  Outside of that, no one really has a clue about it whatsoever; not the smartest man in the world and certainly not you or me.

And by the way, the Bible never says that "God has life" as you claim; at least it does not in the many versions that I have available to me.


You apparently do not run off of unkind words to say. That's not nice and is impolite. If you take yourself better than others, at least don't let that lead you to be unkind and impolite toward one who you consider lesser than you. Such words does not invite friendship nor does it foster humility.

You speak for yourself. For the apostles and everyone for that matter who knows Jesus Christ has all the clues as to what "life" is. For they understand what the following scriptures says concerning life, even eternal life:

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

1 John 1:2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Finally on your last statement, "And by the way, the Bible never says that "God has life" as you claim; at least it does not in the many versions that I have available to me."

John 5:26
(NKJV) For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
(NIV) For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
(NASB) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Deuteronomy 5:26
(NKJV) For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
(NIV) For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived?
(NASB) For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

Matthew 16:16
(NKJV) Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
(NIV) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
(NASB) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Online 4WD

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2427 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 14:00:04 »
None of those say what you said. 

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2428 on: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 19:06:20 »
Quote
No, that is just the way you interpret it Barbarian.

God didn't leave any escape clauses.   He made it quite clear.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.   

Romans 2:13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,


Quote
According to your own exemplified standard, any and all are free to claim that is just your interpretation and believe otherwise without any effect upon their salvation.

One's theology or lack of it may not make a difference.  But what one does or fails to do, will.   If you can believe God.   One person told me that it didn't matter, because if one had faith, then works would happen as a consequence.   Maybe so.  Perhaps works verify faith.   But we are indeed justified by works, as God says:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

 
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 25, 2018 - 19:11:23 by The Barbarian »

Online Michael2012

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2429 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 07:11:28 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 11:09:59
Quote
can see now that we know life differently. Life, as I know it from scriptures, is not a physical attribute. If it were, scripture would not say that God has life, for God is spirit. So, to the contrary, life is not a physical attribute but is spiritual.

Again, you have presented a typical irrational Michael2012 type of statement.  The only "life" you have any real understanding of is physical life.  Spiritual "life" is described or presented in Scripture only in allegory with physical life.  Outside of that, no one really has a clue about it whatsoever; not the smartest man in the world and certainly not you or me.

And by the way, the Bible never says that "God has life" as you claim; at least it does not in the many versions that I have available to me.

You apparently do not run off of unkind words to say. That's not nice and is impolite. If you take yourself better than others, at least don't let that lead you to be unkind and impolite toward one who you consider lesser than you. Such words does not invite friendship nor does it foster humility.

You speak for yourself. For the apostles and everyone for that matter who knows Jesus Christ has all the clues as to what "life" is. For they understand what the following scriptures says concerning life, even eternal life:

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.

1 John 1:2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Finally on your last statement, "And by the way, the Bible never says that "God has life" as you claim; at least it does not in the many versions that I have available to me."

John 5:26
(NKJV) For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
(NIV) For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
(NASB) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Deuteronomy 5:26
(NKJV) For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
(NIV) For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived?
(NASB) For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?

Matthew 16:16
(NKJV) Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
(NIV) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
(NASB) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
None of those say what you said.

Do you not see, even from John 5:26 that God has life?

And if the scriptures I cited to you does not give you any clue at all about what "life" is in the scriptures, perhaps the knowledge that life is a physical attribute would stay with you.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2430 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 07:24:20 »
So, to the contrary, life is not a physical attribute but is spiritual.

If life is not physical, how can plants and trees be alive? Do they have spirits?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2431 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 07:56:24 »
Michael2012 has a tendency to change the meanings of words and phrases in Scripture to fit his own weird beliefs.  If he believes the sky is green, not blue, you are not likely to change his mind by anything you say.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2432 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 08:19:57 »
Michael2012 has a tendency to change the meanings of words and phrases in Scripture to fit his own weird beliefs.  If he believes the sky is green, not blue, you are not likely to change his mind by anything you say.


Moreover, he runs rabbit trails that are irrelevant to the subject or at most are stretches to create a weak point.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2433 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 08:38:46 »
God didn't leave any escape clauses.   He made it quite clear.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.   

Romans 2:13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,



Mt. 7:21 is immediately followed by the following verses:

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Ask yourself this: Is not prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons in Jesus's name, and doing many wonders in Jesus' name not among the will of the Father? While Mt. 7:21 is clear that only those who calls on to Jesus as Lord and does the will of the Father will be those who will enter the Kingdom of God, one must ask oneself, what will of God is Jesus talking about? If not things such as prophesying, casting out demons, and doing many wonders, in Jesus' name, what will of God is Jesus referring to? I'm quite sure that many think of the commandments found in the Law, especially the ten commandments. And so, I am not surprised that you cited Romans 2:13 which speaks of doers of the law. And having cited Mt.25:31-46, are you saying that the will of the Father Jesus was referring to in Mt.7:21 are such works as those mentioned that the sheep had done?

Now, is that the will of the Father that Jesus is referring to in Mt.7:21? Does Jesus really speak of these works, or is there more to it than the works themselves, that is the will of the Father which Jesus is meaning to teach?

I have made my point I guess, so I'll leave that question for you to ponder upon.

Also with regards Mt.25:31-46, it speaks about Christ, when He comes and sit on the throne of His glory, as will separate the nations one from another. He is figured to be as a shepherd who divides HIS sheep from the goats (Mt. 25:32). Now, the sheep will inherit the kingdom, while the goats will go into the everlasting fire. It brings to mind, what Jesus told the apostles in John 10, He likens Himself in the figure of a Shepherd who owns the sheep (HIS sheep that is). And Jesus goes on to say regarding this that when He, the good Shepherd, brings out His own sheep, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know His voice. And He said in John 10, 14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Who are the Good Shepherd's (Jesus') sheep, HIS sheep? They are those who belong to Him as being His own. They are those whom Jesus leads. They are those who know His voice and follow Him. They are those whom He knew and is known by them. And finally, but certainly the first, they are those whom Jesus will lay down His life for.

Finally, with regards Romans 2:13, I will have to cite a few verses to point out the truth concerning the matter of the law:

Galatians 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


Online Michael2012

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2434 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 08:47:33 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 11:09:59
So, to the contrary, life is not a physical attribute but is spiritual.

If life is not physical, how can plants and trees be alive? Do they have spirits?

Who says that plants and trees are living things? Science and scientist perhaps. But do scriptures says that plants and trees have life or are living creatures or living things?

It all comes down to what life is. I'd of course go with what life is in scriptures, more than what life is in science.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2435 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 08:51:12 »
Michael2012 has a tendency to change the meanings of words and phrases in Scripture to fit his own weird beliefs.  If he believes the sky is green, not blue, you are not likely to change his mind by anything you say.

So tell let's try one.  What word or phrase in John 5:26 did I change the meaning of to fit my belief that God has life?

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2436 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 08:52:54 »

Moreover, he runs rabbit trails that are irrelevant to the subject or at most are stretches to create a weak point.


Be kind and fair enough to cite an instance.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2437 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 09:05:09 »
If life is not physical, how can plants and trees be alive? Do they have spirits?


Who says that plants and trees are living things? Science and scientist perhaps. But do scriptures says that plants and trees have life or are living creatures or living things?

It all comes down to what life is. I'd of course go with what life is in scriptures, more than what life is in science.


Now that's just funny    rofl rofl rofl

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2438 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 09:10:01 »
And just one more example of his changing the meaning of words and phrases to support his really weird view of things.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2439 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 09:52:45 »
If life is not physical, how can plants and trees be alive? Do they have spirits?


Who says that plants and trees are living things? Science and scientist perhaps. But do scriptures says that plants and trees have life or are living creatures or living things?

It all comes down to what life is. I'd of course go with what life is in scriptures, more than what life is in science.

1 Corinthians 15:36
"What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn't grow into a plant unless it dies first."

Obviously seeds couldn't die if they were not alive.
Seems to me the Bible teaches that plants are alive.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2440 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 10:01:14 »
1 Corinthians 15:36
"What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn't grow into a plant unless it dies first."

Obviously seeds couldn't die if they were not alive.
Seems to me the Bible teaches that plants are alive.


With the constant references to seeds, roots, branches, etc it would appear that the biblical metaphors would indicate "life" in plants.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2441 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 11:10:01 »
Plants scream in terror when they are killed.  Those screams are not heard by murderous vegans so the smug and self satisfied herbivores care not.

Evil killers, all of them.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2442 on: Tue Jun 26, 2018 - 11:34:05 »
Plants scream in terror when they are killed.  Those screams are not heard by murderous vegans so the smug and self satisfied herbivores care not.

Evil killers, all of them.


That is terrible, we should be doing something about that.  ::pondering::

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2443 on: Mon Jul 02, 2018 - 15:01:46 »
Mt. 7:21 is immediately followed by the following verses:

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Ask yourself this: Is not prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons in Jesus's name, and doing many wonders in Jesus' name not among the will of the Father? While Mt. 7:21 is clear that only those who calls on to Jesus as Lord and does the will of the Father will be those who will enter the Kingdom of God, one must ask oneself, what will of God is Jesus talking about? If not things such as prophesying, casting out demons, and doing many wonders, in Jesus' name, what will of God is Jesus referring to? I'm quite sure that many think of the commandments found in the Law, especially the ten commandments. And so, I am not surprised that you cited Romans 2:13 which speaks of doers of the law. And having cited Mt.25:31-46, are you saying that the will of the Father Jesus was referring to in Mt.7:21 are such works as those mentioned that the sheep had done?[/quote]

Jesus said exactly what had saved the sheep.

Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Quote
Now, is that the will of the Father that Jesus is referring to in Mt.7:21? Does Jesus really speak of these works, or is there more to it than the works themselves, that is the will of the Father which Jesus is meaning to teach?

I'm just pointing out what Jesus says determines your eternal home.  Best listen to Him.

I have made my point I guess, so I'll leave that question for you to ponder upon.

Quote
Who are the Good Shepherd's (Jesus') sheep, HIS sheep?

See above.   He makes it abundantly clear how the sheep will be separated from the goats.   Listen to Him.

 They are those who belong to Him as being His own. They are those whom Jesus leads. They are those who know His voice and follow Him. They are those whom He knew and is known by them. And finally, but certainly the first, they are those whom Jesus will lay down His life for.

Finally, with regards Romans 2:13, I will have to cite  God's word as to how we are justified:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
 

 

Offline tooldtocare

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2444 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 11:32:59 »
Some things just need repeating

By The Barbarian-----
Why would it be offensive to any Christian, if God created the diversity of living thing though evolution?    While some Christians suppose that the "yom" of Genesis mean literal days, the word can mean a host of other things, such as "in that time", "forever", and "always."
If what we observe in nature seems to conflict with what God says, we have misunderstood one or both of them.


Amen
 ::tippinghat::

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2445 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 16:08:23 »
Nope.   Since the early 1960s, when the discovery of mid-oceanic ridges explained why the continents split apart from each other, no geologists doubt that the did so.

Nope.   Oceanic crust is much different than continental shelf, being thinner, denser, and composed of different rock.     It was, as you just learned, produced from mantle material upwelling from blow.   Continents are mostly granite

Indeed...and the ocean plates...all of the ocean plates are much younger than all of the continental plates.  There was a time when there were no ocean basins on this earth, but I don't see anyone talking about that fact.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2446 on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 16:28:07 »
Some things just need repeating

By The Barbarian-----
Why would it be offensive to any Christian, if God created the diversity of living thing though evolution?    While some Christians suppose that the "yom" of Genesis mean literal days, the word can mean a host of other things, such as "in that time", "forever", and "always."
If what we observe in nature seems to conflict with what God says, we have misunderstood one or both of them.


Amen
 ::tippinghat::

I personally have no problem with the concept of evolution being true.  I don't know if evolution is true, but it is a logical theory, and it does not contradict the Bible.  God created man from the dust of the earth.  We don't really know what that means.  Did God pick up a pile of dust and whirl his magic wand and...POOF...Adam appeared?  I highly doubt that.  We don't know what the creation of man entailed; from dust to human being leaves a lot of room for speculation.  Why not evolution? 

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2447 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 02:05:09 »
I personally have no problem with the concept of evolution being true.  I don't know if evolution is true, but it is a logical theory, and it does not contradict the Bible.  God created man from the dust of the earth.  We don't really know what that means.  Did God pick up a pile of dust and whirl his magic wand and...POOF...Adam appeared?  I highly doubt that.  We don't know what the creation of man entailed; from dust to human being leaves a lot of room for speculation.  Why not evolution?

Hi son of a son.  I'm glad that you are open minded on the subject.

I would not expect you to accept evolution unless the facts supported it.  But they do.  They support it overwhelmingly.
1. We find enough transitional forms that this alone would suffice.  I invite you to examine the transitional forms from a four footed animal with a particular ear innovation known only to cetaceans, to modern cetaceans that we have today.  I also invite you to examine the transitional forms going from the Australopithecines up to Homo Sapiens Sapiens.  Pay special attention to Homo Habilis.  Either one of these examples, whales or humans, should be more than enough to convince you.
2. Evolution fits the genetic information like a glove
3. We observe evolution in the present.
4. We have even seen new species come into existence, new species being defined as that which can no longer breed with the species it came from, and produces offspring which can reproduce.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2448 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 10:13:41 »
Quote
Indeed...and the ocean plates...all of the ocean plates are much younger than all of the continental plates.

There's a good reason for that.   When continental crust and oceanic crust collide, the oceanic crust, being denser is subducted below the continental crust into the mantle where it is destroyed.   New oceanic crust is constantly being made at the mid-oceanic ridges.   So continental crust is older than oceanic crust.

Quote
There was a time when there were no ocean basins on this earth, but I don't see anyone talking about that fact.

This system is more ancient than living things on the planet, so it would have been a long, long time ago.

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Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2449 on: Thu Jul 05, 2018 - 12:15:05 »

That is terrible, we should be doing something about that.  ::pondering::

Most men and boys have already been trying for years, unfortunately there is usually some woman around coercing them to violate their moral convictions.  Could be this is why God made man the head of the household, in an attempt to minimize the sinful, senseless slaughter of these helpless creatures.