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UnhandledException

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What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 17:51:23 »
So many times I have been in conversations with people who tell me that someone they knew has died and is now in Heaven. I always ask, in a roundabout way, if that person believed in God. They sometimes answer, "No, but he was a good person."

Would you agree with them or would you tell them the truth?

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What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 17:51:23 »

Offline fanuvmxpx

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #1 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 18:10:10 »
I say only God can know where they are...even for those who profess Christianity.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #1 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 18:10:10 »

Offline Serenity432001

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #2 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 18:40:35 »
Interesting question.  I just had a conversation with someone whose friends dad passed away and she asked her daughter if the friends dad was a Christian and she said I answered like this, mom, he didn't go to church every time the doors opened but he was very good to his fellow man and many times he would go down town and give food and clothes to the homeless and not tell anyone about it.  They would find out about his goodness from others, not the man himself so you tell me seeing as he was more Christ like than the folks you go to church with, was he a Christain?

Offline phoebe

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #3 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 20:36:45 »
I would say the same thing that I say to those of faith: "I'm sorry for your loss."


Why in the world would you add to their grief by saying any more?  ::headscratch::
Don't ask questions you shouldn't be asking and you won't be scrambling for a response to their answers.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #3 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 20:36:45 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline spurly

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #4 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 20:39:14 »
So many times I have been in conversations with people who tell me that someone they knew has died and is now in Heaven. I always ask, in a roundabout way, if that person believed in God. They sometimes answer, "No, but he was a good person."

Would you agree with them or would you tell them the truth?


I wouldn't agree with them, but what I would say would depend on several factors like how well I knew the person and how long ago the death occurred.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #4 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 20:39:14 »



Offline spurly

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #5 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 20:41:41 »
Interesting question.  I just had a conversation with someone whose friends dad passed away and she asked her daughter if the friends dad was a Christian and she said I answered like this, mom, he didn't go to church every time the doors opened but he was very good to his fellow man and many times he would go down town and give food and clothes to the homeless and not tell anyone about it.  They would find out about his goodness from others, not the man himself so you tell me seeing as he was more Christ like than the folks you go to church with, was he a Christain?

Serenity, you and I have had this conversation many times.  Our works don't save us.  The works of a Christian don't save them and the works of a non-Christian don't save them.  We are saved by grace when we place our faith in Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins, repent, are immersed into the saving work of Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit.  Apart from God's work in us when we place our faith in Christ there is no salvation.

Offline Serenity432001

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #6 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 20:45:50 »
Interesting question.  I just had a conversation with someone whose friends dad passed away and she asked her daughter if the friends dad was a Christian and she said I answered like this, mom, he didn't go to church every time the doors opened but he was very good to his fellow man and many times he would go down town and give food and clothes to the homeless and not tell anyone about it.  They would find out about his goodness from others, not the man himself so you tell me seeing as he was more Christ like than the folks you go to church with, was he a Christain?

Serenity, you and I have had this conversation many times.  Our works don't save us.  The works of a Christian don't save them and the works of a non-Christian don't save them.  We are saved by grace when we place our faith in Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins, repent, are immersed into the saving work of Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit.  Apart from God's work in us when we place our faith in Christ there is no salvation.

Yes spurly we have had this conversation many times and many times I've said its not about earning ones salvation but rather about what Jesus said when He said you will know they are mine if they have love one for another.  I still think most underestimate the power of love and how thats really how we are His and how we serve and worship Him.  When you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me. 

Offline kmv

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #7 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:03:45 »
You might tell them that Jesus said that when He returns to judge the world, those who fed the hungry and
Interesting question.  I just had a conversation with someone whose friends dad passed away and she asked her daughter if the friends dad was a Christian and she said I answered like this, mom, he didn't go to church every time the doors opened but he was very good to his fellow man and many times he would go down town and give food and clothes to the homeless and not tell anyone about it.  They would find out about his goodness from others, not the man himself so you tell me seeing as he was more Christ like than the folks you go to church with, was he a Christain?

We can always say that Jesus told us that when He returns to judge the world, those who fed the hungry and cared for the sick and welcomed the stranger will come with Him to inherit the kingdom prepared for them since the beginning of the world.

Offline Hotrod

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #8 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:18:47 »
You might tell them that Jesus said that when He returns to judge the world, those who fed the hungry and
Interesting question.  I just had a conversation with someone whose friends dad passed away and she asked her daughter if the friends dad was a Christian and she said I answered like this, mom, he didn't go to church every time the doors opened but he was very good to his fellow man and many times he would go down town and give food and clothes to the homeless and not tell anyone about it.  They would find out about his goodness from others, not the man himself so you tell me seeing as he was more Christ like than the folks you go to church with, was he a Christain?

We can always say that Jesus told us that when He returns to judge the world, those who fed the hungry and cared for the sick and welcomed the stranger will come with Him to inherit the kingdom prepared for them since the beginning of the world.

Bingo.

UnhandledException

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #9 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:23:47 »
I would say the same thing that I say to those of faith: "I'm sorry for your loss."


Why in the world would you add to their grief by saying any more?  ::headscratch::
Don't ask questions you shouldn't be asking and you won't be scrambling for a response to their answers.


Don't you think that if they agree that they will go to Heaven without Jesus we should tell them?  I know it is too late for their dearly-departed, but it isn't too late for them.

UnhandledException

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #10 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:34:59 »

...He said you will know they are mine if they have love one for another...


This just means that if you are His you will love one another.  You cannot say just because you love one another you are His. 

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #11 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:36:16 »
Interesting question.  I just had a conversation with someone whose friends dad passed away and she asked her daughter if the friends dad was a Christian and she said I answered like this, mom, he didn't go to church every time the doors opened but he was very good to his fellow man and many times he would go down town and give food and clothes to the homeless and not tell anyone about it.  They would find out about his goodness from others, not the man himself so you tell me seeing as he was more Christ like than the folks you go to church with, was he a Christain?

Serenity, you and I have had this conversation many times.  Our works don't save us.  The works of a Christian don't save them and the works of a non-Christian don't save them.  We are saved by grace when we place our faith in Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins, repent, are immersed into the saving work of Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit.  Apart from God's work in us when we place our faith in Christ there is no salvation.

Yes spurly we have had this conversation many times and many times I've said its not about earning ones salvation but rather about what Jesus said when He said you will know they are mine if they have love one for another.  I still think most underestimate the power of love and how thats really how we are His and how we serve and worship Him.  When you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me. 

A person can be kind, generous, loving, and be lost as last year's Easter eggs and bust hell wide open when they die.

Offline Serenity432001

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #12 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:40:52 »
Interesting question.  I just had a conversation with someone whose friends dad passed away and she asked her daughter if the friends dad was a Christian and she said I answered like this, mom, he didn't go to church every time the doors opened but he was very good to his fellow man and many times he would go down town and give food and clothes to the homeless and not tell anyone about it.  They would find out about his goodness from others, not the man himself so you tell me seeing as he was more Christ like than the folks you go to church with, was he a Christain?

Serenity, you and I have had this conversation many times.  Our works don't save us.  The works of a Christian don't save them and the works of a non-Christian don't save them.  We are saved by grace when we place our faith in Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins, repent, are immersed into the saving work of Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit.  Apart from God's work in us when we place our faith in Christ there is no salvation.

Yes spurly we have had this conversation many times and many times I've said its not about earning ones salvation but rather about what Jesus said when He said you will know they are mine if they have love one for another.  I still think most underestimate the power of love and how thats really how we are His and how we serve and worship Him.  When you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me. 

A person can be kind, generous, loving, and be lost as last year's Easter eggs and bust hell wide open when they die.

Hey olddad, good to see you.  Let me ask you this would you agree or disagree with what kmv says here:

We can always say that Jesus told us that when He returns to judge the world, those who fed the hungry and cared for the sick and welcomed the stranger will come with Him to inherit the kingdom prepared for them since the beginning of the world.

Offline OldDad

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #13 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:52:04 »
Jesus told a parable about what would happen to people based on how they treated the King's brothers and sisters.  The Bible is clear about how one becomes a member of the King's family.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #14 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 21:58:08 »
So do you agree with it?

Offline OldDad

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #15 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 22:12:48 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #16 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 22:20:46 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.



 Have to agree with this. We can be the most good and kind person ever, but the Bible tells us that we ALL fall short of what Gods standards are and that is why we ALL need Jesus.Our works dont get us to heaven but only believing in Jesus and what he has done for us. Also the non Christians idea of what 'good' is is  very different from what Gods idea is.

Offline kmv

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #17 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 22:23:44 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.


So, what do the various elements of the metaphor represent?  What is it the we are expected to understand?

What parts of this judgement day story are we free to downplay, or discard?

Offline kmv

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #18 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 22:30:54 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.



 Have to agree with this. We can be the most good and kind person ever, but the Bible tells us that we ALL fall short of what Gods standards are and that is why we ALL need Jesus.Our works dont get us to heaven but only believing in Jesus and what he has done for us. Also the non Christians idea of what 'good' is is  very different from what Gods idea is.


But hasn't God shown us His idea of 'good' in this story?   If someone is doing the things that Jesus specifically says the sheep do, then aren't they necessarily doing what is good in God's eyes?

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #19 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 22:48:36 »
My first clue that we're dealing in metaphor?  SHEEP and GOATS.

If this was a stand-alone, isolated parable, and one addressed to an individualistic culture like ours today, there might be some justification for thinking a good-hearted and benevolent pagan could have eternal life.

The parable states that there will be reward and punishment based on how people treated the King's brothers.  The predominate view among the Jews in Jesus' day was that the nations would be judged based on how they treated Israel.  I believe that's the idea we see in play here and, again, not a literal account of how judgment is going to be conducted.

I believe it is eisegesis to isolate this parable and twist it to give hope of salvation to anyone outside of the atoning work of Jesus.

Offline kmv

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #20 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 23:03:33 »
My first clue that we're dealing in metaphor?  SHEEP and GOATS.


True.  Yet when Jesus tells us that He is the vine and we are the branches, we understand that metaphor has meaning for us, in our time and our lives.

I'm interested in what you believe Jesus wants us to do about this very specific passage.

Quote
If this was a stand-alone, isolated parable, and one addressed to an individualistic culture like ours today, there might be some justification for thinking a good-hearted and benevolent pagan could have eternal life.

Do you not see this addressed to us?

Quote
The parable states that there will be reward and punishment based on how people treated the King's brothers.  The predominate view among the Jews in Jesus' day was that the nations would be judged based on how they treated Israel.  I believe that's the idea we see in play here and, again, not a literal account of how judgment is going to be conducted.

I believe it is eisegesis to isolate this parable and twist it to give hope of salvation to anyone outside of the atoning work of Jesus.

Yet the story is quite deliberate in stating that our treatment of others determines our inheritance, isn't it?  Whatever you have done...

Why do you think that is?

Personally, I don't separate Jesus' sacrifice from anything; I'm just unwilling to disregard what He's told us about love- His overarching command to us. Specifically, that how we treat each other is a deal-breaker with regards to our salvation.


Maybe it is easier to talk about the goats.  Does not caring for the sick and feeding the hungry cost us our salvation?

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #21 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 23:20:40 »

Yet the story is quite deliberate in stating that our treatment of others determines our inheritance, isn't it?  Whatever you have done...

Why do you think that is?

Actually, I don't think that's what it "is" - I believe Jesus is reiterating the idea that the nations (gentiles) will be judged based on how they treat the King's brothers (Israel).

What does Jesus want us to "do" with this story?  I have no idea - Sometimes Jesus wasn't talking to us.

That said, I do believe our salvation results in works, but never vice versa.  And I think it's dangerous to lead a pagan to think they might "make heaven" based on a loving, generous nature.


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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #22 on: Tue May 05, 2009 - 23:26:43 »
no on the truth.  Afterall they just lost a loved one.  I just pray with the family if they will let me.  For the family.  After all once a person dies their fate is sealed.   But the family can use the prayers and support for themselves.

Offline zoonance

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #23 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 00:08:46 »
I recall the epitaph that read  "All dressed up and no place to go."

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #24 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 01:15:43 »
Interesting discussion coming out of this thread.

One can feed the hungry all day long and at the end of that same day rape and murder a child.

Only the Blood of Jesus saves. If not, His death was in vain.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #25 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 03:08:34 »
First of all, the word of God takes precedence over our assumptions of good and evil. We read in Mark 10:18  - - there is none good but one, that is, God.

In the first part of 1 John Chapter 4 John is talking to brethren about false prophets; he is not saying a seemingly good person is of God, and then he proceeds to show the importance of love in us to have assurance in Verse 13, boldness in Verse 17, and casting off fear in Verse 18.

1 John 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
 
1 John 4:15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. There is no hint here that a person not born of God has God dwelling in them even if they feed the whole world.

Now let's look at someone that kept the whole law in Mark 10:20. -- Master, all these have I observed from my youth, but in Mark 10:21 Jesus tells him -- One thing thou lackest. Outside of being in Christ there will always be something lacking.

Can a person be saved without receiving Christ? Regardless of the kindness, good works, or love one shows without Christ, it is of no profit other than the amount of judgment they will receive when brought before the great white throne.

Outside of Christ all are judged in Romans 3:10: There is none righteous, no, not one. And Romans 3:23. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We must be born of God.

In Jesus' name - larry2
« Last Edit: Wed May 06, 2009 - 14:53:36 by larry2 »

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #26 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 05:31:30 »
The arguments that are being made about the judgement day scene would make sense if I Cor 13 used the word Faith instead of love and if the greatest commandment were faith instead of love and if it were faith never fails instead of LOVE NEVER FAILS.  Just think about that for a bit.

And you will know they are mine if they have faith in me instead of love for one another.
« Last Edit: Wed May 06, 2009 - 05:47:26 by Serenity432001 »

Offline Serenity432001

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #27 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 05:34:33 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.



 Have to agree with this. We can be the most good and kind person ever, but the Bible tells us that we ALL fall short of what Gods standards are and that is why we ALL need Jesus.Our works dont get us to heaven but only believing in Jesus and what he has done for us. Also the non Christians idea of what 'good' is is  very different from what Gods idea is.

Again, I think folks are confusing good deeds with love.  Yes, one can do loving things and good things and have very hateful interior motives and I agree this is not what makes us on of Christs BUT those who are loving like Christ and have Christ qualities are HIS.   It says that many places in the Bible including the judgement day scene.  Those people didn't jump through some hoops first to be in the kingdom.  It was feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and etc that put them there.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #28 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 05:37:09 »
I guess I really do see Christ and love as the same thing.  Others must not.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #29 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 05:50:07 »
Heres the thing.  I really don't mean to diminish the importance of faith.  Without FAITH it is imposible to please God.  I get that.  What I don't get is folks claiming oprah has no faith or faith in the wrong God simply because she won't say it exactly the way they do or the way they want her to.   Christ test of whether or not it is from HIm is love, not in how we express He is the only way and if you do use the word love instead of Christ then I'd say she does believe just that.     

Offline kmv

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #30 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 07:34:52 »

Yet the story is quite deliberate in stating that our treatment of others determines our inheritance, isn't it?  Whatever you have done...

Why do you think that is?

Actually, I don't think that's what it "is" - I believe Jesus is reiterating the idea that the nations (gentiles) will be judged based on how they treat the King's brothers (Israel).

What does Jesus want us to "do" with this story?  I have no idea - Sometimes Jesus wasn't talking to us.

That said, I do believe our salvation results in works, but never vice versa.  And I think it's dangerous to lead a pagan to think they might "make heaven" based on a loving, generous nature.



I find the notion that the sheep & the goats might not be meant for us to be a strange way of looking at our Lord's teaching.

Offline kmv

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #31 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 07:40:05 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.



 Have to agree with this. We can be the most good and kind person ever, but the Bible tells us that we ALL fall short of what Gods standards are and that is why we ALL need Jesus.Our works dont get us to heaven but only believing in Jesus and what he has done for us. Also the non Christians idea of what 'good' is is  very different from what Gods idea is.

Again, I think folks are confusing good deeds with love.  Yes, one can do loving things and good things and have very hateful interior motives and I agree this is not what makes us on of Christs BUT those who are loving like Christ and have Christ qualities are HIS.   It says that many places in the Bible including the judgement day scene.  Those people didn't jump through some hoops first to be in the kingdom.  It was feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and etc that put them there.

I think there might be two things at play.

I think we are so (understandably) concerned about countering the idea of salvation by works that we dismiss or demote the essential requirement of love so that we don't have to figure out how that requirement fits in with 'grace-only'.

And I think that too often we buy into the world's misunderstanding of love, because it's easier to comprehend than God's.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #32 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 07:46:20 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.



 Have to agree with this. We can be the most good and kind person ever, but the Bible tells us that we ALL fall short of what Gods standards are and that is why we ALL need Jesus.Our works dont get us to heaven but only believing in Jesus and what he has done for us. Also the non Christians idea of what 'good' is is  very different from what Gods idea is.

Again, I think folks are confusing good deeds with love.  Yes, one can do loving things and good things and have very hateful interior motives and I agree this is not what makes us on of Christs BUT those who are loving like Christ and have Christ qualities are HIS.   It says that many places in the Bible including the judgement day scene.  Those people didn't jump through some hoops first to be in the kingdom.  It was feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and etc that put them there.

I think there might be two things at play.

I think we are so (understandably) concerned about countering the idea of salvation by works that we dismiss or demote the essential requirement of love so that we don't have to figure out how that requirement fits in with 'grace-only'.

And I think that too often we buy into the world's misunderstanding of love, because it's easier to comprehend than God's.

Both excellent points!  Thanks for sharing. 

Offline kmv

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #33 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 08:16:48 »
I would say Jesus was speaking metaphorically, and was not describing the literal conduct of the final judgment.  I do not agree with your apparent conclusion that humanitarian service gains one entrance to eternal life.

Again it is possible to be a kind, generous, loving and benevolent lost person.



 Have to agree with this. We can be the most good and kind person ever, but the Bible tells us that we ALL fall short of what Gods standards are and that is why we ALL need Jesus.Our works dont get us to heaven but only believing in Jesus and what he has done for us. Also the non Christians idea of what 'good' is is  very different from what Gods idea is.

Again, I think folks are confusing good deeds with love.  Yes, one can do loving things and good things and have very hateful interior motives and I agree this is not what makes us on of Christs BUT those who are loving like Christ and have Christ qualities are HIS.   It says that many places in the Bible including the judgement day scene.  Those people didn't jump through some hoops first to be in the kingdom.  It was feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and etc that put them there.

I think there might be two things at play.

I think we are so (understandably) concerned about countering the idea of salvation by works that we dismiss or demote the essential requirement of love so that we don't have to figure out how that requirement fits in with 'grace-only'.

And I think that too often we buy into the world's misunderstanding of love, because it's easier to comprehend than God's.

Both excellent points!  Thanks for sharing. 

I think we've let defending grace-only become our version of keeping the law; like the pharisees, we've lost sight of the whole point.

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Re: What Do You Say To An Atheists Family After A Loved One Dies
« Reply #34 on: Wed May 06, 2009 - 08:44:21 »
s BUT those who are loving like Christ and have Christ qualities are HIS.   

So what if they totally reject Christ and profess atheism and even ridicule and mock the gospel message. Yes, I can see God dragging them kicking and screaming into heaven. Yeah, thats it.