Your Best Argument for God's Existence

[RB]

And all of that is what you have backwards.  First, the Bible presents the evidence that it is true.  Nearly all of what is contained in the Bible is there to establish its truth.  From the evidence that the Bible is true, we then believe what it tells us.  Then from believing what the Bible says to us, we believe, i.e. have faith, in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel.

Rom 10:13  For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

I agree with what you are saying, the differences between you and I, is that I believe that one must FIRST be born of God so that he CAN believe! Faith is NOT the means of the new birth, but the EVIDENCE of it. You have the cart before the horse. But that's the difference between our two Soteriology teaching.

But we have hashed that before so we will let that go for now.

[4WD]

No problem 4WD.

But that is the problem.  And it is not easy to do.  In fact when Jesus and later the apostles walked the earth, as you pointed out from Acts 2, the miracles they performed were the major evidence that what they proclaimed was indeed true.  If in fact it were as you present, such evidence would not even be needed.  If God simply instilled, as a gift, faith within a person, then most of the Bible would be superfluous. 

[4WD]

I agree with what you are saying, the differences between you and I, is that I believe that one must FIRST be born of God so that he CAN believe! Faith is NOT the means of the new birth, but the EVIDENCE of it. You have the cart before the horse. But that's the difference between our two Soteriology teaching.

But we have hashed that before so we will let that go for now.

So then if anyone does not believe it is obviously, according to you, God's fault and only God's fault  --  PERIOD.  It can't be any other way.

If one believes, i.e. has faith, because he has been born of God so that he CAN believe, then if he doesn't believe it is only because he has not been born of God.  Hence it is God's fault entirely since it is only by God that one can be born again; and if He doesn't do that, there is nothing the person can do.

My question to you is how could you ever sit on a jury and yield a verdict of guilty and impose a sentence of a fine, jail or worse on a non-believer.  Clearly he was doing exactly as God intended.  I understand how you could impose that on a believer.  A believe should know better; but the unbeliever can't know better because God won't give him what it takes to know better.

[Carey]

A picture is worth a thousand words, God's creation, at least a million.

[RB]

So then if anyone does not believe it is obviously, according to you, God's fault and only God's fault  --  PERIOD.  It can't be any other way.

If one believes, i.e. has faith, because he has been born of God so that he CAN believe, then if he doesn't believe it is only because he has not been born of God.  Hence it is God's fault entirely since it is only by God that one can be born again; and if He doesn't do that, there is nothing the person can do.

My question to you is how could you ever sit on a jury and yield a verdict of guilty and impose a sentence of a fine, jail or worse on a non-believer.  Clearly he was doing exactly as God intended.  I understand how you could impose that on a believer.  A believe should know better; but the unbeliever can't know better because God won't give him what it takes to know better.

My brother whom I love~one more time I will say it again to you and all others listening~The fault lies with the FIRST ADAM, I think you know him, he's your daddy through many generations back, you can read about his disobedience in the book of Genesis and the results of his disobedience explain to us by Paul in Romans five, which we have considered many times over. I think it was last summer on this thread we went into details about father Adam to WHOM we can point our finger and blame for all of man's woe's~consider again: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-all-mankind-sinned-in-adam/105/  Please start here~ Reply #126 on: Sun Jul 01, 2018 - 04:32:50  Your unbelief in this truth does does not make God's truth to be a lie and not true.

Romans 3:3,4~"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

I'll stay with God's testimony concerning whom to blame.  It's MAN'S FAULT, not God's~he created Adam upright and placed him in a perfect environment, with one little commandment to obey, yet he disobeyed and lost God's image of righteousness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding and took on the image of the Devil himself~do I need to explain what that image consists of? I see it every day in the world around me~and so do you, my brother, so do you and everyone else on this Christian forum read and hears and sees the same~ especially so IF they let God be true and every man a liar.

[RB]

A picture is worth a thousand words, God's creation, at least a million.

Amen my brother, amen.

Romans 1:19-25~"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

The Lord willing, we shall consider these scriptures later on.

[RB]

This post follows Reply # 32~I know and I'm persuaded of God's existence based upon the superiority of God's testimony to us belonging to the highest regions of thought, reality, and the truthfulness of human behavior in every aspect of our lives and dealing with each other. Standing high above others by reason of nobility or grandeur of nature or character; of high intellectual, moral, or spiritual level. Affecting the mind with a sense of overwhelming grandeur or irresistible power; calculated to inspire awe, deep reverence, or lofty emotion, by reason of its beauty, vastness, or grandeur and truthfulness.

Is there a better definition of love than that found in Ist Corinthians 13:4-7? No way~ yet consider how concisely this single sentence summarizes fifteen aspects of perfect love. Each of its phrases is pregnant with meaning and valuable instruction for relationships that NO man is capable of defining as well as we read about in the scriptures which prove that NO man spoke and wrote those words apart from the inspiration of God. This proves that there is a Being MUCH HIGHER than man that gave those words to us

Consider "golden rule," taught by Jesus Christ in the Bible, is unmatched among men as a simple, comprehensive, and exalted rule of interpersonal conduct (Luke 6:31). It is a marvel in conciseness, simplicity, profound beauty, force, and obvious consequences. Mere man does NOT think act and lives by those rules.

The good Samaritan condemns bigotry, revenge, and hatred in a simple and clear way and instead promotes tender regard for personal enemies in need (Luke 10:25-37)

What works of literature, philosophy, or religion can be compared to the Psalms? The Proverbs? Ecclesiastes? Song of Solomon? Daniel and the prophets and the Revelation of Jesus Christ? None!

The description of the virtuous woman has only been approached by those who have read Proverbs 31. What man (or woman) could write so much in so few words? No man can, only God and give such to man, which proves his existence.
 
Aagin~what apocalyptic writings can compare to Daniel's prophecies and the Revelation?

What drama can compare to the simple but moving books of Ruth and Esther?

Who can read the story of Jacob learning of Joseph in Egypt without weeping? Mary washing the feet of Jesus? Jesus reading in the synagogue at Nazareth?

Who can read about creation in Genesis 1 without amazement at its brevity and power?

Who can read the contrast of Jesus Christ and Moses' law in Hebrews without realizing it contains the most positive, polemic, persuasive, and political exhortation possible?

There has never been a plan of salvation like the one of the Bible. Where else does God die for man in order to save him from certain death? And it is all of grace without works. And yet it provokes the greatest motivation for good works of any system. Like Goliath's sword, there's NONE like the holy scriptures which give to us MANY HUNDREDS of infallible proofs that there is a God just as the scriptures reveal to us.

Many more to come. 

[4WD]

I'll stay with God's testimony concerning whom to blame.  It's MAN'S FAULT, not God's~

If man is born dead in sin as you say, and if it is only by God's act of regeneration that the dead in sin can believe, then the only conclusion is that those who do not believe have not been born again.  And since, according to you, it is only God who makes the decision to regenerate, then it is only God who must be held accountable for the unbelief of any that He chooses not to regenerate.  But of course we know that it is not God's fault.  It is man's fault.  Therefore your explanation of these things is just wrong.

he created Adam upright and placed him in a perfect environment, with one little commandment to obey, yet he disobeyed and lost God's image of righteousness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding and took on the image of the Devil himself~

But the Bible never makes such a statement. It never ever even suggests such a thing. Adam did not lose God's image.  As I have pointed out many times here God, Himself, declares that all mankind is in the image of God (Gen 9:6).  Now it is true that we read that Adam fathered Seth in his own image (Gen 5:3), but that image was necessarily the physical image, not the spiritual image.  Jesus testified to that distinction in John 3:6. 

I would point out also that God's discussion in Genesis, chapter 4, with Cain tells us that your view of regeneration is all wrong.  He tells Cain, who was angry that God had rejected his sacrifice;  "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it" (vv. 6-7)

God's admonition to Cain that he "must rule over the sin" is a direct commandment that defies your conviction that one must be regenerated in order to obey God. God says to Cain, "It is up to you."

[4WD]

This post follows Reply # 32~I know and I'm persuaded of God's existence based upon the superiority of God's testimony

Precisely.  And that testimony is two-fold.  The first is creation itself.  Paul says creation is sufficient evidence that God exists.  The second is God's written word.  And it is the written word, the Scriptures, that gives us the evidence for who and what God is, His nature, His character traits, His very being.  It is that testimony which presents the evidence for the existence of God.  Still not proof, but certainly all the evidence that is needed to believe, to have faith.  Faith not proof.

[Alan]

Alan, pray to tell me you are not saying that we cannot use the scriptures to prove God's existence ~

To believers, the scriptures are truth, to non-believers the scriptures are fiction and therefore not a viable source of proof for the non-believer.


Have you ever done any street evangelizing? If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer. I've had many people begin to question the "reason" for God once you begin to show some logic into cause and effect. In your personal life you may stand on the Bible as the infallible source of wisdom and if you approached me on the street I would high five you with a big AMEN! Others simply do not respond well to religion first and logic second, probably much the same as someone attempting to convince me that The Watchtower is be-all-end-all-defacto-truth.   

[AVZ]

To believers, the scriptures are truth, to non-believers the scriptures are fiction and therefore not a viable source of proof for the non-believer.


Have you ever done any street evangelizing? If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer. I've had many people begin to question the "reason" for God once you begin to show some logic into cause and effect. In your personal life you may stand on the Bible as the infallible source of wisdom and if you approached me on the street I would high five you with a big AMEN! Others simply do not respond well to religion first and logic second, probably much the same as someone attempting to convince me that The Watchtower is be-all-end-all-defacto-truth.

Apparently Dawkins can write books that convince people to embrace atheism
Scientists can write studies that convince people to embrace evolution
Muhammad can write the Quran and convince people to embrace Islam

...but the Bible is insufficient to convince people of anything

[Alan]

Apparently Dawkins can write books that convince people to embrace atheism


Muhammad can write the Quran and convince people to embrace Islam

...but the Bible is insufficient to convince people of anything

You can ask people all day long to read the Bible. Are they gonna do it? Probably with about the same results as you'll find them reading the other things you posted.

[Alan]

Scientists can write studies that convince people to embrace evolution

This has zero to do with this discussion.

[soterion]

To believers, the scriptures are truth, to non-believers the scriptures are fiction and therefore not a viable source of proof for the non-believer.


Have you ever done any street evangelizing? If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer. I've had many people begin to question the "reason" for God once you begin to show some logic into cause and effect. In your personal life you may stand on the Bible as the infallible source of wisdom and if you approached me on the street I would high five you with a big AMEN! Others simply do not respond well to religion first and logic second, probably much the same as someone attempting to convince me that The Watchtower is be-all-end-all-defacto-truth.

Just because something is not accepted as evidence does not make it nonevidentiary. It just means that those who do not accept it do not believe. That holds true for any evidence used to try and prove anything. Flat earthers do not accept the obvious evidence for a spherical earth.

I understand that logic can work with some folks, though not many. Since I would rather focus on Jesus and the Bible, rather than just that a god exists, I would have to try and convince skeptics that the Bible is the word of God, then go on to show who Jesus is.

[Alan]

Just because something is not accepted as evidence does not make it nonevidentiary. It just means that those who do not accept it do not believe. That holds true for any evidence used to try and prove anything. Flat earthers do not accept the obvious evidence for a spherical earth.

I agree. More often than not people place barriers between the evidence and their personal views, it makes it quite difficult to gain any ground with these type but there are ways that can be successful if you use a bit of tact.

I understand that logic can work with some folks, though not many. Since I would rather focus on Jesus and the Bible, rather than just that a god exists, I would have to try and convince skeptics that the Bible is the word of God, then go on to show who Jesus is.

Yeah, in a perfect world that would be the best option but as we know, this is a far from perfect world. In my experiences it was most difficult to engage the disbelievers with the merits of Jesus and the Bible as a hole.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us that are saved it is the power of God.

[soterion]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us that are saved it is the power of God.

Romans 10:13-17.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
and how shall they preach, except they be sent?

even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things! But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[AVZ]

Just because something is not accepted as evidence does not make it nonevidentiary. It just means that those who do not accept it do not believe. That holds true for any evidence used to try and prove anything. Flat earthers do not accept the obvious evidence for a spherical earth.

I understand that logic can work with some folks, though not many. Since I would rather focus on Jesus and the Bible, rather than just that a god exists, I would have to try and convince skeptics that the Bible is the word of God, then go on to show who Jesus is.

The fact that God holds all who reject the truth responsible for it, shows that Gods presence and Gods Word are undeniably evident.

To reason that a non-believer cannot be convinced by scripture because he doesn't believe it is a non-intelligible claim.
Even if you would be able to proof that a god exists, you still have the challenge to prove that the God of the Bible is the one.
So if indeed unbelief is a reason not to bring the Bible to the table...then what hope do you have you ever can?

Scripture states that unbelievers are without excuse.
That means that we are not talking about accidental unbelievers...we are talking about people who reject the truth purposely.
You think unbelievers don't know the Bible is the truth? Of course they do, they just don't want to have it.

It is really very sad that some Christians think Gods Word cannot stand on its own and cannot prove itself.

[4WD]

It is really very sad that some Christians think Gods Word cannot stand on its own and cannot prove itself.

It is really sad that some Christians, and non-Christians also, do not understand what really constitutes evidence and what constitutes proof.

[RB]

Have you ever done any street evangelizing?

I have not, and it's foolish to do so in our day, maybe seventy-five years ago, that would have work, maybe, but those days are long gone. Even in the NT, for the most part, was done in designated places....temple, synagogues, homes, etc. It serves no purpose other than allowing people to mock the truth of those that truly have it and speak it to those who show an interest in hearing the truth. I know you understand this, and so does everyone else with a little biblical knowledge.

If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person .

Well, my friend, I have a thousand times over~my father-in-law who lives on my property in his class A RV when he's not traveling. He hates Republicans, religion, and would NEVER acknowledge God, never. I honor him as my wife's Stepfather in law, but no more than that. He's a true biblical fool, even though a genius by the world's standard of measuring people, he is still truly a fool by God's standard.

but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer

His god is evolution~and I'll leave it there keep from hijacking this thread. The last meaningful discussion we had where I left him unable to answer my questions and his only comebacks were so pitiful that he got very frustrated with me that it almost turned into hatred~ and maybe it did I care less. Here's the discussion that should fit well into this thread..................................... 

We were sitting on the Atlantic Ocean in our lounge chairs and I thought I would see if I could reason with him to help him see that there IS a God that created all things~so I said, Is it no a marvel and a wonder the way the tide works SO PERFECTLY that they can build great cities RIGHT ON THE VERY EDGE of these powerful, proud waves, KNOWING  exactly years ahead of time where they will stop and how far they will go out within a fraction of an inch, without having ANY FEAR that the cities of the world (and I named many of them that sit right on the edge of the oceans of the world) ever being overtaken of the powerful seas of this world, no fear whatsoever BASED ON GOD"S PERFECT CREATION of all things!

Then he said like any fool would (for they cannot keep from showing their ignorance)~they HAVE overtaken the land millions of years ago because they have found large whale bones on land~whether or not that is true or not matters little to me, but I said back to him, well, all that proves to me is that there was a flood in the days of Noah just as the bible said, and "IF" they did find whales bones, then all that does is add support to the scriptures NOT against God's perfect and orderly creation with its four seasons arriving perfectly every year.

I also try to talk with him about the human body how EVERY PART is in its perfect place with a job to do, to make it as useful as it possibly can be and then the fool said.....If "I" had design it, I would have done the esophagus differently! At that point I was ready to leave this fool alone and did, for the most part, I never reason with him again to amount to anything and that was maybe twenty-five plus years ago. BUT, when he eats in my house or we go out to eat, he will bow his head while I offer up thanksgiving to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and Red and Sherry Baker his stepdaughter.

[RB]

Your Best Argument for God's Existence

Another argument would be for us to consider "the history of the scriptures" that declares to us of God's existence.

Simple observation of the universe's design, order, and power shows God's existence; but the origin of man is only explained with any reasonableness from Genesis 1-2.

The popularity of a "big bang" turning chaotic matter into our beautiful world is nothing more than self-protecting hallucination i.e. The Emperor's New Clothes.

The mutational theory of salamanders choosing to become bald eagles is insane, and it requires no more in the way of refutation than pointing out its nakedness. Since there is no evidence of its truthfulness, and it is so ridiculously defended, there is no reason to waste time refuting the mere hallucinations of God-haters. Charles Darwin confused variations in finches with monkeys becoming ladies; not because he wisely proved evolution, but because he was a pagan dreamer; and he died accordingly, doubting most everything and without hope.

Muslims think God created Adam from a dried blood clot (Koran 96:1-2). The only history of our origin making sense is the Biblical account in Genesis, and it is consistent with all scientific evidence. For proof, check these sources: http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Index.htm.
http://www.christianhomeschoolers.com/creation/main.shtml.

An infinite Creator capable and willing to create immortal souls is easy enough, and man's present condition of slow death due to sin from Genesis 3 is most reasonable. Therefore, the existence of death is only explained adequately by the Bible.

Modern pagans must do two things to convince us they are sane~explain the origin of life and the origin of death with scientific proof, reasonable evidence, duplication, or believable authority. Until then, we shall consider them fools. Forget dealing with death, around death, or about death; tell us its origin, purpose, accomplishment, and its remedy; then we might listen for two minutes.

How did man learn to plant, harvest, and process the various grains for the production of food? Obviously, the African and the American Indian, among other cultures, never learned such things~and are still WAY BEHIND! God taught this knowledge to man by inspiration (Isaiah 28:23-29). Do you have a better explanation? What happened to the first twenty generations in (well, we will not mention names on this forum) scheme, while they were learning by trial and error how to produce food?

The Bible describes a worldwide flood, which is proven by numerous methods, both scientific and historical. Whether the Grand Canyon or oral traditions and legends in many nations, the evidence for the Bible's flood is significant. If you need help with the evidence for Noah's flood, see: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/flood.asp.

Where did so many languages~and their great diversity - come from? If not from the Tower of Babel, then where? Did monkey speech evolve into English and Chinese in some evolutionary process? Did Darwin have a theory of natural selection for Chinese characters over our alphabet? See http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4190cen_d1999.asp.

The Bible, recording the history of Israel, touches upon many nations and rulers, which have been found to agree perfectly with the best archeological and historical studies, though some have not been confirmed until recent archaeological finds. If you love to see God and His Word vindicated, then see the following links.
http://www.grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/4archaeology.html.
http://www.probe.org/docs/arch-ot.html.
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/historical_evid.html.
http://www.gospelcom.net/faithfacts/maps_a.html.
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html.

We have a seven-day week, because God gave it to Adam and wrote it in the Bible~the ONLY reason we have it!  The hours in a day, the days in a month, and the days in a year are all based on astronomical movements of the sun (from our perspective), earth, and moon. But the only explanation for all nations and languages perpetually observing a seven-day week is based on the creation account and week determination given in the Bible (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17). Noah, being a man who walked with God (Genesis 6:9), brought the seven-day week through the flood. Moses, being God's messenger for the establishment of national and public worship in Israel, established the ceremonial requirements of the seventh day. This point alone could be enough to convince a reasonable man of the Bible and ITS AUTHOR and HIS EXISTENCE. What do others say about the origin of the seventh day? Consider these pages:  (1) http://www.tagnet.org/llt/science.htm. (2) http://cjvlang.com/Dow/dowlinks.html.

Tacitus, Roman historian of great integrity, wrote that Pontius Pilate crucified Jesus in the reign of Tiberias Caesar. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/cornel.html.
Pilate testified of Jesus' miracles. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/pilate.html.
Josephus testified of His miracles. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/joseph.html.
Thallus admits three dark hours. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/thallus.html.
Many witnessed of Jesus Christ. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/main.html.
"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible and its Author's existence than in any other profane history" (Sir Isaac Newton; 1642-1727; Scientist and Inventor).

[4WD]

The popularity of a "big bang" turning chaotic matter into our beautiful world is nothing more than self-protecting hallucination i.e. The Emperor's New Clothes.

An infinite Creator capable and willing to create immortal souls is easy enough

Let me make certain that I understand your thinking here.  Creating immortal souls is easy for God to do and for us to understand, but creating the big bang is quite outside of His capability.  That seems almost oxymoronic to me. There can be no serious argument that all of the laws of physics [that God created] point inexorably to the big bang and things as they now exist.  On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that points to immortal souls of men.  You can't even give a reasonable description of what the soul of man even is, let alone what an immortal one might be. If there were ever a "self-protecting hallucination", it would be the idea of immortality.  There is absolutely no evidence in this world that would ever point to that.

[RB]

Let me make certain that I understand your thinking here.  Creating immortal souls is easy for God to do and for us to understand, but creating the big bang is quite outside of His capability. 

4WD, as I have said to you once before, the "only" big bang that ever occurred happened when God Almighty said LET THERE BE and it came to past just as He willed creation to be as we see it NOW.

On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that points to immortal souls of men.

True, we learn everything for the testimony of God and apart from his testimony, we would be in total darkness concerning everything from creation to us as human being, etc. "The history" of the word of God gives us a solid foundation to build our faith on as to the veracity of all truths concerning God's existence and the knowledge of his Infinite being and his will and purposes for us, etc.

You can't even give a reasonable description of what the soul of man even is

Your wrong, we can~but that's a different study. We have before and will be glad to find that thread for you when I have time to do so.

If there were ever a "self-protecting hallucination", it would be the idea of immortality

NOT when one believes God's testimony concerning immortality. Immortality is NOT an ideal but a blessed truth revealed in the holy scriptures. You know that to be so, do not play dumb as though it is not revealed to us by God.

2nd Timothy 1:9, 10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

There is absolutely no evidence in this world that would ever point to that.

Really? I just gave to you Paul's witness that immortality has come TO LIGHT through the gospel....IF one truly understands the gospel. 

The big bang theory as you understand it, has caused deafness to your ears, and blindness to your eyes. Selah.

[4WD]

The big bang theory as you understand it, has caused deafness to your ears, and blindness to your eyes. Selah.

Not really, I just think God is so much greater, more holy, more merciful, more majestic, more powerful, wiser, more glorious, more loving, etc., etc. than you do.

[RB]

Not really, I just think God is so much greater, more holy, more merciful, more majestic, more powerful, wiser, more glorious, more loving, etc., etc. than you do.

Dear sir, I trust that you will indeed excel me in every area of your life~ I'm not in a personal race with any man to excel them, I just have one desire and that desire is to please God and exalt his word above every opinion of man and for me to live by every word that proceedeth out of His holy lips for us to believe and live by.

[4WD]

I just have one desire and that desire is to ...... exalt his word above every opinion of man

I don't think you do that.  I truly believe that you exalt Reformed theologians word above His.

[RB]

I don't think you do that.  I truly believe that you exalt Reformed theologians word above His.

You do not understand the difference between what I believe and Reformed theology ~we are not even close.

[4WD]

You do not understand the difference between what I believe and Reformed theology ~we are not even close.

Yes I do understand that difference.  But the significant point is that you both begin with the foundation of the false doctrine of Total Depravity and everything after that is false as well. So that it doesn't really matter which way you go, it will wrong.