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General Discussion => General Discussion Forum => Topic started by: EDM on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 04:36:01

Title: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: EDM on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 04:36:01
Here's mine:
Proof God exists is SUPER EASY for anyone to understand (sadly, the stubborn denier is the exception):

1) Each DNA contains 100 million pages worth of instructions to build the entire body. Do instructions write themselves? Nope. Instructions don't write themselves. Behind every instruction is an 'instructor' who authored it. Carl Sagan said: "The information content of a simple cell has been established as around one trillion bits, comparable to about 100 million pages of the Encyclopaedia Britannica."

2) Every genome is written as a quaternary molecular digital code: "All present life is based on digitally-encoded information." (American Academy of Sciences). Do digital programs write themselves? Nope again.

3) Each cell contains hi-tech miniature organs (organelles - nucleus, golgi bodies, mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc.) - none of which are naturally found elsewhere - hence no natural explanation for their existence.

4) Who can write a 100 million pages worth of instructions and then stuff it into every cell of our body? This hyper-intellect is who we will face on Judgment Day.

With item (1) almost every reasonable person acknowledges that they have never seen nor heard of instructions writing themselves. This is common sense to most people although not all.

Some argue they see all the above occur in nature when cells reproduce. However, there is still no explanation how the very first living cell came about with all those instructions in its DNA, and although some theorize that organelles were first formed by bacteria invading a host 'cell', we've never seen organelles produced by such a mechanism nor has such a mechanism ever been DEMONSTRATED and VALIDATED by any study.

Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 06:19:46
Those are certainly compelling reasons to believe in the existence of God.  They do not prove the existence of God.  If God actually wanted to provide us with the proof of His existence, then most definitely, He being God, could have done so.  But He didn't.  It seems obvious that He chose not to provide that proof.  His purpose seems to be that he wants those who respond because of faith, not because of proof.  He has provided all that is necessary for anyone to believe in Him, i.e., have faith in Him.  Some will believe and some will not.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 07:19:15
I don't genuinely have an argument that I could use to irrefutably prove God's existence, as 4WD stated, it is a faith thing rather than tangible evidence.

I do however believe the essence and balance of nature is very compelling in my personal views. I'm also a proponent of some profound philosophical quotes such as Kalam's Cosmological Argument;

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist.


Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Or, "why is there something rather than nothing?"


Something must either be caused to exist or it exists of it's own nature.


We know full well that the universe had a beginning and are also quite sure it will have an end. It did not come into existence from nothing, even the most ardent atheist cosmologists agree that "something" triggered the singularity into expansion.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 07:43:11
You are presenting evidence not proof. God has presented all the evidence needed to believe but still not a proof.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: chosenone on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 10:25:44
I see proof in the billions of people whose lives have been changed, healed and restored.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 11:04:36
You are presenting evidence not proof. God has presented all the evidence needed to believe but still not a proof.


Yes, that's why I said I had no genuine proof but to me the evidence points toward creation.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Dave_UK on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 05:40:52
To me - the best argument lies in Paul's statement  "Those that would come to God must believe that He exists, and is a rewarder of those who seek His face"  Reach out to Him and (if you haven't put up barriers) He will reach out to you!  As believers, think of the countless kindnesses He shows us as we travel through life.  OK so we are not immune to problems and difficulties - but somehow, He brings us through them - maybe walking wounded - but "still in the fray".  Life wasn't meant to be easy - "no cross, no crown" - in Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote "It seems to me that God's purpose is to test men - to see what they truly are".  Well are we "wimps" or "fighters"? I feel most desperately sad for those who have no experience of His over-arching care for us. They have no-one to turn to over their cares - they just have to "put up" with them! I know scoffers will say that makes "religion" a moral "crutch" - but my retort is "Genuinely try it, and see!" - The psalmists are "hot" on the business of "Taste the Lord and see that He is good!" - so, many others through the ages have found it to be true!
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:07:43
To me - the best argument lies in Paul's statement  "Those that would come to God must believe that He exists, and is a rewarder of those who seek His face"  Reach out to Him and (if you haven't put up barriers) He will reach out to you!  As believers, think of the countless kindnesses He shows us as we travel through life.  OK so we are not immune to problems and difficulties - but somehow, He brings us through them - maybe walking wounded - but "still in the fray".  Life wasn't meant to be easy - "no cross, no crown" - in Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote "It seems to me that God's purpose is to test men - to see what they truly are".  Well are we "wimps" or "fighters"? I feel most desperately sad for those who have no experience of His over-arching care for us!


Relevant to believers or those that may be seeking a greater existence but pretty much useless to use against those that dismiss the existence of God.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Dave_UK on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:18:36
Hi Alan!  Ooooh! - you were quick to reply before I had finished thinking (my "noddle" is slowing up, with increasing age) -  by adding : -

"They have no-one to turn to over their cares - they just have to "put up" with them! I know scoffers will say that makes "religion" a moral "crutch" - but my retort is "Genuinely, try it, and see!" - The psalmists are "hot" on the business of "Taste the Lord and see that He is good!" - so, many others through the ages have found it to be true! "

If a lot of bods recommend something - it's worth looking into their recommends!

This may be following a false trail, but recently a letter from Einstein was auctioned (they call it the God Letter) in which he "poohs-poohs" the possibility of a "Higher Entity"  - yet one of the pervading features of his work is the presence of the factor "c" for the velocity of light.  Um! that's "funny" didn't Paul write "God is light, in Him is no darkness at all" - and the first act of creation was to create light.  Just thinking!!!
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:28:32
Hi Alan!  Ooooh! - you were quick to reply before I had finished thinking -  by adding : -

"They have no-one to turn to over their cares - they just have to "put up" with them! I know scoffers will say that makes "religion" a moral "crutch" - but my retort is "Genuinely, try it, and see!" - The psalmists are "hot" on the business of "Taste the Lord and see that He is good!" - so, many others through the ages have found it to be true! "

If a lot of bods recommend something - it's worth looking into their recommends!


In my experience the ardent disbeliever will most certainly scoff at the idea of being shown relevance in scripture, they'll usually dismiss the pages as a fairy tale written by men for gullible men.
As soon as you have a person that begins questioning their existence, there are many excellent verses in the Bible that will get that persons attention.
It depends on where the person's mindset is that you are speaking to, proceed with caution.   
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Dave_UK on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:34:12
Hi Alan - you've replied too soon again - my thoughts work like treacle - see my reference to "c"!
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:47:54
Hi Alan - you've replied too soon again - my thoughts work like treacle - see my reference to "c"!


Interesting, Einstein used C as a part of his equation to calculate energy. God used light to overcome the darkness (voids) where energy is observable.  ::smile::
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 09:03:00
I believe that God has given us evidence of His existence in His creation, knowledge of His existence in our conscience and proof of His existence in Christ.
Man by nature knows God exist, and he does not need an argument or proof. Gods existence is self-evident.
Those who reject God do so against better judgement.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 09:52:42
Those who reject God do so against better judgement.


Maybe so, but it is a fact nonetheless. Many people will not even so much engage in a discussion regarding God but when you do run into sensible people it's nice to have some kind of philosophy to throw at them, perhaps open their minds a bit.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Dave_UK on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 13:31:05
Just tossing another thought into the ring!  Even atheists are struck by the beauty of unspoilt nature - and that makes them wonder!   ::pondering:: Paul writes in Romans 1:19-20 "For all that may be known of God by men lies plain before their eyes; indeed God Himself has disclosed it to them. His invisible attributes, that is to say His everlasting power and deity, have been visible ever since the world began, to the eye of reason, in the things He has made.

On a different tack - I don't remember who was involved but it was some eminent early 20C Britishers I think. One challenged the other what proof he had that God actually existed.  The other simply responded "The Jews!"  Despite all the best efforts of the forces of darkness etc, surrounded by enemies on every side, and their own stiff-necked obstinate sinful behaviour - God still keeps His promise to them of His care, as His chosen people. (BTW Don't mention "Replacement Theology" to me!  ::frown::)
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 20:13:42

Maybe so, but it is a fact nonetheless. Many people will not even so much engage in a discussion regarding God but when you do run into sensible people it's nice to have some kind of philosophy to throw at them, perhaps open their minds a bit.

What you want me to say?

The whole of creation is a testimony to Gods existence.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who buy into secular speculations that parts of it all have come about by natural means.

The Bible is a testimony of Gods existence and sovereignty.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who side with the secular world that parts of it are not necessarily correct, or that described events did not really happen the way they were described.

The fact that we have moral laws is a testimony to a Lawgiver.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who consider morality part of a social evolutionary process.

Humans are special. Every human knows this. We are not animals.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians testifying to the "fact" that we originate from apes.


I don't think we have to find arguments for God's existence. God has made it very clear to everybody.
Whether secular or not, nobody can get around God and everybody knows it.
The problem is that we feeding the secular world with doubts and objections because many of us have caved to secular ideologies, and we have proceeded to interweave them with sound theology.

I find it very strange that you claim not to have irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Look around you. Can you touch a tree? Hold a baby? There you have it...irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Pick up a Bible...again irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.

The problem is that we are surrounded by irrefutable and tangible evidence of God's existence, but many Christians are following secular thoughts and have started to explain these things away as natural events.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 20:18:15
What you want me to say?

The whole of creation is a testimony to Gods existence.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who buy into secular speculations that parts of it all have come about by natural means.

The Bible is a testimony of Gods existence and sovereignty.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who side with the secular world that parts of it are not necessarily correct, or that described events did not really happen the way they were described.

The fact that we have moral laws is a testimony to a Lawgiver.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who consider morality part of a social evolutionary process.

Humans are special. Every human knows this. We are not animals.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians testifying to the "fact" that we originate from apes.


I don't think we have to find arguments for God's existence. God has made it very clear to everybody.
Whether secular or not, nobody can get around God and everybody knows it.
The problem is that we feeding the secular world with doubts and objections because many of us have caved to secular ideologies, and we have proceeded to interweave them with sound theology.

I find it very strange that you claim not to have irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Look around you. Can you touch a tree? Hold a baby? There you have it...irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Pick up a Bible...again irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.

The problem is that we are surrounded by irrefutable and tangible evidence of God's existence, but many Christians are following secular thoughts and have started to explain these things away as natural events.


None of those things are proof.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: The Barbarian on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 21:14:48
Quote
Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist.

Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Or, "why is there something rather than nothing?"


Something must either be caused to exist or it exists of it's own nature.

This is very close to an argument of Aquinas in Summa Theologica.

 
The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

    We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

    Nothing exists prior to itself.

    Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.

    If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).

    Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

    If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

    That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).

    Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.

    Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.


I do not find any of them absolutely compelling, but they are certainly reasonable.   Nevertheless, faith remains an essential part of approaching an understanding of God.   
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: soterion on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 21:15:14
Maybe when dealing with atheists is it important to provide evidence for a higher power, but isn't it so much more important to point out evidence for Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Many of the things provided so far here can point to a god of some kind, but many people believe in a god, though not the God of the Bible and certainly not Jesus as Savior. Evidence such as changed lives, answered prayer, the creation, and others, can be testified to by many people of many different religions, but only Christians can testify to Jesus.

So, what evidence do we have for our claims about Jesus?  The Bible, in particular, the New Testament, although the Old correctly understood speaks of and points to Him.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 23:14:10

None of those things are proof.

Of course to you these things do not constitute proof, because you have bought into the notion that we are the product of evolution and the Bible is subject to secular interpretation.

Scripture however makes it very clear that what we see around us is proof of God's existence, and there is no excuse denying it:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 04:24:12
Of course to you these things do not constitute proof, because you have bought into the notion that we are the product of evolution and the Bible is subject to secular interpretation.

Scripture however makes it very clear that what we see around us is proof of God's existence, and there is no excuse denying
it
If there is proof, then there is no need for faith.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 11:08:26
Of course to you these things do not constitute proof, because you have bought into the notion that we are the product of evolution and the Bible is subject to secular interpretation.


The Bible is NOT proof of anything to people that do not believe it, try harder to follow along here.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 11:26:00

So, what evidence do we have for our claims about Jesus?  The Bible, in particular, the New Testament, although the Old correctly understood speaks of and points to Him.


I've heard many people deny Jesus existence but historians say otherwise. As I recall, there exists much evidence that confirms NT literature to be historically correct. The one I find quite compelling is the history of Pilate. Sure would be an absurdity to author the gospels as a fictional tale yet include genuine people that directly interacted with the supposed fictional characters.

The  Wiki article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate) has more than enough information regarding Pilate. Just one small piece that points toward Jesus existence as genuine.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 17:34:10

The Bible is NOT proof of anything to people that do not believe it, try harder to follow along here.

Apparently it also is not proof to people who claim to believe the Bible.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 17:42:50
Apparently it also is not proof to people who claim to believe the Bible.


You are trying VERY hard to derail this topic into something that was not intended. This is a warning, DO NOT GO THERE!!
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 19:37:16

You are trying VERY hard to derail this topic into something that was not intended. This is a warning, DO NOT GO THERE!!

Nonsense.
None of the scriptural arguments make sense to a non-believer if he chooses not to believe it, and neither does the Cosmological argument for those who have alternative theories.

The Bible IS proof of God's existence and it is sad you don't recognize it for what it is.
But maybe that's the core reason why you allow yourself the liberty to declare parts of it metaphorical.

The Bible is Gods Word and if you can't pick up a Bible and point a non-believer to Gods Word...then you have no basis whatsoever to make any argument for the existence of God.
If the Bible is no proof for God and you declare it as such, then any non-believer will rightly conclude that your faith is based on nothing.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 21:25:42
Nonsense.
None of the scriptural arguments make sense to a non-believer if he chooses not to believe it, and neither does the Cosmological argument for those who have alternative theories.

The Bible IS proof of God's existence and it is sad you don't recognize it for what it is.
But maybe that's the core reason why you allow yourself the liberty to declare parts of it metaphorical.

The Bible is Gods Word and if you can't pick up a Bible and point a non-believer to Gods Word...then you have no basis whatsoever to make any argument for the existence of God.
If the Bible is no proof for God and you declare it as such, then any non-believer will rightly conclude that your faith is based on nothing.


You're preaching to the choir, of course scripture validates itself to me but that isn't what we are discussing in this thread.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 21:36:25

You're preaching to the choir, of course scripture validates itself to me but that isn't what we are discussing in this thread.

Of course that's what we are talking about.
What gives you the right to say that scripture validates itself to you but not to a non-believer?
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Dave_UK on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 02:49:15

Interesting, Einstein used C as a part of his equation to calculate energy. God used light to overcome the darkness (voids) where energy is observable.  ::smile::

In my youth (yonks ago sadly!) I was (obsessively - since I filled several notebooks on my understandings of Einstein's work and ploughed through several textbooks, with their problems/solutions!) concerned with what was at that time (to me at least) the frontiers of maths (Although very much a "Johnny come lately"!).  So I was "into" Tensor Calculus (Covariant Differentiation and similar stuff!), and greatly interested to learn how Einstein used that in his General Relativity work, and the use of Riemannian Geometry (particularly his extension from the Euclidean space line element  - describing "flat" space - to incorporate mass/time, with all that inclusion implied).  I worked through Eddingtons book on G.R. - fascinated by how G.R. predicted the decay/alteration of orbits etc, and the behaviour of binary stellar systems (that of the rarer multiple element systems still, I believe, beyond our ability to fully evaluate the complex interactions).  I remember my amazement at seeing how the "c" factor worked in something apparently as straightforward as the "vector" addition of two velocities together, so that "c" could not (theoretically) be exceeded.  So it wasn't just E=mc^2 stuff! 

That led me on to look at what I thought was going to be a fascinating field, the Topology of spaces ("non-flat" spaces, and those immersed in hyper-spaces) - but found it disappointingly abstract - I remember one critic's rather vulgar comment about the Klein Bottle (a re-entrant surface) - I will not repeat it here!  A book on "String Theory" whetted my appetite on the posited possibility that our universe, as we understand it, might be just part of a multi-verse - just one of many "little universes", bubbles of existence on the "surface" of a frothy multi-dimensional "sea" of .... "who-knows-what" - of unfathomable complexity!

And here we are, on this thread talking about God's existence!?  It's all too great, too vast, too complex, for our little intellects - IMO we come back to the ending of the book of Job in the Bible "I have spoken of great things which I have not understood, things too wonderful for me to know....Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes."


It seems to me, that the older one gets (and hopefully the more "learn-ed") - one comes to appreciate just how little we actually know! Yes! knowledge increases (as prophesied for the End Time) - but are we truly any the wiser about what "it's" all about? Am reminded of what Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 3:14b "And He has done it all in such a way that men must feel awe in His Presence."
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 03:46:25
You're preaching to the choir, of course scripture validates itself to me but that isn't what we are discussing in this thread.
Alan, pray to tell me you are not saying that we cannot use the scriptures to prove God's existence ~ I agree with AVZ....
Quote from: AVZ Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 19:37:16 ยป
The Bible IS proof of God's existence and it is sad you don't recognize it for what it is. But maybe that's the core reason why you allow yourself the liberty to declare parts of it metaphorical.
You do not need to use threats with shouting words.
Quote from: Alan Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 17:42:50
This is a warning, DO NOT GO THERE!!
Of course, they do not intimate me in the least. I will be posting based on this scripture and others:
Quote from: The Holy Ghost
Acts 1:2~"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
The holy scriptures give to us many infallible proofs of God existence as well.

Only believers can be persuaded by proofs, an unbeliever cannot be even if you provided thousands of infallible proofs out of God's creation...and there are some there btw~ BUT, it is useless to argue OUTSIDE of the word of God with unbelievers, if they will not hear God's word, they have no hope of eternal life for life, for Jesus Christ IS eternal life; and we will add, FAITH is a gift given by God, you either believe what is written or you do not believe. Proofs believed whether in scriptures or out of them only adds comfort, joy security to the beleiving saints! Btw, God's elect need no conformation other than God's very own testimony. Too bad that's not enough for men like you.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:04:17
Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.
The OP did not say that one could not use scriptures~it said:
Quote from: EDM Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 04:36:01
I would like to hear your argument for God's existence
I take that to mean use whatever argument you have that best would prove God's existence.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:33:46
Alan, pray to tell me you are not saying that we cannot use the scriptures to prove God's existence
In order that the Scriptures prove God's existence, you must first prove that the Scriptures are the inerrant word of God.  And that, by any measure, is a circular argument.  There really is proof of neither and I think that is God's intention.  With proof there is no need for faith and it is faith which God desires. There is sufficient evidence that the Bible is true and with that then there is sufficient evidence that God exists and is as the Bible declares.  But that is the end of it.  There is no proof.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:37:47
Quote from:  EDM on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 04:36:01
Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.
We are Bible Christians, which means we follow the Bible's record of Jesus Christ and His teachings. Our religion is simple ~it is nothing more and nothing less than following Jesus Christ according to the Bible. We believe God wrote the Bible to reveal Himself, (apart from the scriptures we WOULD NOT know God) His Son Jesus Christ, the truth about the universe and His religion, and everything we need to know to live successful lives in this world and the world to come.

We do not base our Christianity on tradition, history, creeds, commentaries, popular opinion, a national religion, denominational dictates, personal preferences, almanac distinctions, our culture, science so called, or anything else. We cannot call ourselves Christians without establishing the authority of the Bible, for it is in the Bible we learn about the man Jesus Christ and the form of religion that we observe in a New Testament church. Apart from the Bible we have no true knowledge of Jesus Christ or understanding of the proper worship of God, for we are truly bound by this written revelation from God for all we know and do in a religious way.

We can and should put our faith to the test, for the vast majority of the human race have spent their lives believing numerous lies on many subjects. Putting our religion to the test is not only wise, but the Bible commands it (Ist Thessalonians 5:21; Acts 17:11; Isaiah 41:21; Ist John 4:1; Revelation 2:2; Matthew 7:15-20).

God's existence is obvious by the natural creation and our ability to recognize it, and to deny this is to place one's self outside the realm of reasonable discussion (Psalm 14:1-4; 19:1-3; Proverbs 9:10; Eccl 12:13; Romans 1:19-21; Acts 17:24; 2nd Thess 3:2). No one in the Bible ever worried about those who rejected the existence of God, and neither will we. Such fools will meet Him soon enough, and they will be without excuse, for the natural creation is more than sufficient. While this presumption is not why we believe in God, we will nevertheless prove it absolutely true, if we are able to prove that the Bible is His Word to man.

It is not enough to know the existence of God, either by the natural creation or by internal witness, for we can only acquire the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His teachings from the Bible; they are not revealed in the natural creation, but by reading and teaching the Bible (John 5:39; Ist Timothy 6:3-5; Romans 16:17-18,25-27).

It is only reasonable God would communicate with His creatures, so we also presume this matter to initiate our examination of the Bible. When we wish to communicate as strongly as possible, we do so in writing i.e. contracts, documents, letters, etc. The Bible admits this fact (2nd Peter 1:16-19; Esther 1:19; 3:9; 8:5,8). If we prove that God wrote the Bible, then we will have also proven this assumption. If we cannot prove God wrote the Bible or any other book, we must then determine if God did communicate to man at all.

But our two safe presumptions still leave us in this situation ~one of the holy books in the earth is God's Word or none of them are~ for they are all contradictory and violently opposed to one another. Is it reasonable and right to trust the Bible, when there are so many other religious books in the world, like the Koran, the Vita, Veda, the Talmud, Science and Health, and the Book of Mormon among many others?

It is impossible to separate divine evidence from the need for faith, and we have no reason to do so. If a person will not believe proof that God is the Author, he is unreasonable and without faith. The man not born again cannot see the kingdom of God, for the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God: they are foolish to him, for he cannot discern them. Natural arguments to prove spiritual truth to natural men is the most futile objective in the universe, for God must first give life and light (Luke 16:31; John 3:3; Ist Cor 2:14; Matt 7:6; Prov 14:7; 2nd Thess 3:2;2nd  Tim 2:24-26; 2nd Cor 4:1-7; Ist Cor 1:18-24; Ist John 5:20).

Where did Jesus, Philip, and Paul preach? Why did none of them try to prove the existence of God? Why did they assume it without question? They did not have to prove such, for THAT MUST be accepted or all effort to convert people is wasted effort.  The Bible assumes throughout that a person worshipping a stump is as dumb and ignorant as the stump (Psalm 115:8; 135:18; Isaiah 44:9-20; Habakkuk 2:18-20). Proving God's existence through creation or the word of God does nothing to a believer, but only adds MORE confirmation that his faith is not in vain~but FAITH must first be there, or all effort is lost on whoever we are talking to.

Later....RB



Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:46:55
The holy scriptures give to us many infallible proofs of God existence as well.

Only believers can be persuaded by proofs, an unbeliever cannot be even if you provided thousands of infallible proofs out of God's creation...and there are some there btw~ BUT, it is useless to argue OUTSIDE of the word of God with unbelievers, if they will not hear God's word, they have no hope of eternal life for life, for Jesus Christ IS eternal life; and we will add, FAITH is a gift given by God, you either believe what is written or you do not believe. Proofs believed whether in scriptures or out of them only adds comfort, joy security to the beleiving saints! Btw, God's elect need no conformation other than God's very own testimony. Too bad that's not enough for men like you.
And all of that is what you have backwards.  First, the Bible presents the evidence that it is true.  Nearly all of what is contained in the Bible is there to establish its truth.  From the evidence that the Bible is true, we then believe what it tells us.  Then from believing what the Bible says to us, we believe, i.e. have faith, in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel.

Rom 10:13  For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:49:26
In order that the Scriptures prove God's existence, you must first prove that the Scriptures are the inerrant word of God.
No problem 4WD.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:57:22
And all of that is what you have backwards.  First, the Bible presents the evidence that it is true.  Nearly all of what is contained in the Bible is there to establish its truth.  From the evidence that the Bible is true, we then believe what it tells us.  Then from believing what the Bible says to us, we believe, i.e. have faith, in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel.

Rom 10:13  For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


I agree with what you are saying, the differences between you and I, is that I believe that one must FIRST be born of God so that he CAN believe! Faith is NOT the means of the new birth, but the EVIDENCE of it. You have the cart before the horse. But that's the difference between our two Soteriology teaching.

But we have hashed that before so we will let that go for now.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 05:00:08
No problem 4WD.
But that is the problem.  And it is not easy to do.  In fact when Jesus and later the apostles walked the earth, as you pointed out from Acts 2, the miracles they performed were the major evidence that what they proclaimed was indeed true.  If in fact it were as you present, such evidence would not even be needed.  If God simply instilled, as a gift, faith within a person, then most of the Bible would be superfluous. 
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 05:13:52
I agree with what you are saying, the differences between you and I, is that I believe that one must FIRST be born of God so that he CAN believe! Faith is NOT the means of the new birth, but the EVIDENCE of it. You have the cart before the horse. But that's the difference between our two Soteriology teaching.

But we have hashed that before so we will let that go for now.
So then if anyone does not believe it is obviously, according to you, God's fault and only God's fault  --  PERIOD.  It can't be any other way.

If one believes, i.e. has faith, because he has been born of God so that he CAN believe, then if he doesn't believe it is only because he has not been born of God.  Hence it is God's fault entirely since it is only by God that one can be born again; and if He doesn't do that, there is nothing the person can do.

My question to you is how could you ever sit on a jury and yield a verdict of guilty and impose a sentence of a fine, jail or worse on a non-believer.  Clearly he was doing exactly as God intended.  I understand how you could impose that on a believer.  A believe should know better; but the unbeliever can't know better because God won't give him what it takes to know better.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Carey on Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 08:50:54
A picture is worth a thousand words, God's creation, at least a million.

(http://banffandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/beautiful-turquoise-blue-water-of-moraine-lake-600x400.jpg)

(https://images.theconversation.com/files/214077/original/file-20180410-584-15igumx.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=926&fit=clip)

(https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA4OC85MTEvb3JpZ2luYWwvZ29sZGVuLXJldHJpZXZlci1wdXBweS5qcGVn)

(https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline__450w__no_aspect/public/DNA_16x9_0.jpg?itok=gs07u06o)

(http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlarge5/image_6320e-Hubble-GOODS-North-Field.jpg)
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 04:07:26
So then if anyone does not believe it is obviously, according to you, God's fault and only God's fault  --  PERIOD.  It can't be any other way.

If one believes, i.e. has faith, because he has been born of God so that he CAN believe, then if he doesn't believe it is only because he has not been born of God.  Hence it is God's fault entirely since it is only by God that one can be born again; and if He doesn't do that, there is nothing the person can do.

My question to you is how could you ever sit on a jury and yield a verdict of guilty and impose a sentence of a fine, jail or worse on a non-believer.  Clearly he was doing exactly as God intended.  I understand how you could impose that on a believer.  A believe should know better; but the unbeliever can't know better because God won't give him what it takes to know better.

My brother whom I love~one more time I will say it again to you and all others listening~The fault lies with the FIRST ADAM, I think you know him, he's your daddy through many generations back, you can read about his disobedience in the book of Genesis and the results of his disobedience explain to us by Paul in Romans five, which we have considered many times over. I think it was last summer on this thread we went into details about father Adam to WHOM we can point our finger and blame for all of man's woe's~consider again: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-all-mankind-sinned-in-adam/105/  Please start here~ Reply #126 on: Sun Jul 01, 2018 - 04:32:50  Your unbelief in this truth does does not make God's truth to be a lie and not true.
Quote from: The Holy Ghost
Romans 3:3,4~"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
I'll stay with God's testimony concerning whom to blame.  It's MAN'S FAULT, not God's~he created Adam upright and placed him in a perfect environment, with one little commandment to obey, yet he disobeyed and lost God's image of righteousness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding and took on the image of the Devil himself~do I need to explain what that image consists of? I see it every day in the world around me~and so do you, my brother, so do you and everyone else on this Christian forum read and hears and sees the same~ especially so IF they let God be true and every man a liar.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 04:11:58
A picture is worth a thousand words, God's creation, at least a million.

([url]http://banffandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/beautiful-turquoise-blue-water-of-moraine-lake-600x400.jpg[/url])

([url]https://images.theconversation.com/files/214077/original/file-20180410-584-15igumx.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=926&fit=clip[/url])

([url]https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA4OC85MTEvb3JpZ2luYWwvZ29sZGVuLXJldHJpZXZlci1wdXBweS5qcGVn[/url])

([url]https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline__450w__no_aspect/public/DNA_16x9_0.jpg?itok=gs07u06o[/url])

([url]http://cdn.sci-news.com/images/enlarge5/image_6320e-Hubble-GOODS-North-Field.jpg[/url])
Amen my brother, amen.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:19-25~"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."
The Lord willing, we shall consider these scriptures later on.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 04:49:03
This post follows Reply # 32~I know and I'm persuaded of God's existence based upon the superiority of God's testimony to us belonging to the highest regions of thought, reality, and the truthfulness of human behavior in every aspect of our lives and dealing with each other. Standing high above others by reason of nobility or grandeur of nature or character; of high intellectual, moral, or spiritual level. Affecting the mind with a sense of overwhelming grandeur or irresistible power; calculated to inspire awe, deep reverence, or lofty emotion, by reason of its beauty, vastness, or grandeur and truthfulness.

Is there a better definition of love than that found in Ist Corinthians 13:4-7? No way~ yet consider how concisely this single sentence summarizes fifteen aspects of perfect love. Each of its phrases is pregnant with meaning and valuable instruction for relationships that NO man is capable of defining as well as we read about in the scriptures which prove that NO man spoke and wrote those words apart from the inspiration of God. This proves that there is a Being MUCH HIGHER than man that gave those words to us

Consider "golden rule," taught by Jesus Christ in the Bible, is unmatched among men as a simple, comprehensive, and exalted rule of interpersonal conduct (Luke 6:31). It is a marvel in conciseness, simplicity, profound beauty, force, and obvious consequences. Mere man does NOT think act and lives by those rules.

The good Samaritan condemns bigotry, revenge, and hatred in a simple and clear way and instead promotes tender regard for personal enemies in need (Luke 10:25-37)

What works of literature, philosophy, or religion can be compared to the Psalms? The Proverbs? Ecclesiastes? Song of Solomon? Daniel and the prophets and the Revelation of Jesus Christ? None!

The description of the virtuous woman has only been approached by those who have read Proverbs 31. What man (or woman) could write so much in so few words? No man can, only God and give such to man, which proves his existence.
 
Aagin~what apocalyptic writings can compare to Daniel's prophecies and the Revelation?

What drama can compare to the simple but moving books of Ruth and Esther?

Who can read the story of Jacob learning of Joseph in Egypt without weeping? Mary washing the feet of Jesus? Jesus reading in the synagogue at Nazareth?

Who can read about creation in Genesis 1 without amazement at its brevity and power?

Who can read the contrast of Jesus Christ and Moses' law in Hebrews without realizing it contains the most positive, polemic, persuasive, and political exhortation possible?

There has never been a plan of salvation like the one of the Bible. Where else does God die for man in order to save him from certain death? And it is all of grace without works. And yet it provokes the greatest motivation for good works of any system. Like Goliath's sword, there's NONE like the holy scriptures which give to us MANY HUNDREDS of infallible proofs that there is a God just as the scriptures reveal to us.

Many more to come. 
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 04:51:15
I'll stay with God's testimony concerning whom to blame.  It's MAN'S FAULT, not God's~
If man is born dead in sin as you say, and if it is only by God's act of regeneration that the dead in sin can believe, then the only conclusion is that those who do not believe have not been born again.  And since, according to you, it is only God who makes the decision to regenerate, then it is only God who must be held accountable for the unbelief of any that He chooses not to regenerate.  But of course we know that it is not God's fault.  It is man's fault.  Therefore your explanation of these things is just wrong.
Quote from: RB
he created Adam upright and placed him in a perfect environment, with one little commandment to obey, yet he disobeyed and lost God's image of righteousness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding and took on the image of the Devil himself~
But the Bible never makes such a statement. It never ever even suggests such a thing. Adam did not lose God's image.  As I have pointed out many times here God, Himself, declares that all mankind is in the image of God (Gen 9:6).  Now it is true that we read that Adam fathered Seth in his own image (Gen 5:3), but that image was necessarily the physical image, not the spiritual image.  Jesus testified to that distinction in John 3:6. 

I would point out also that God's discussion in Genesis, chapter 4, with Cain tells us that your view of regeneration is all wrong.  He tells Cain, who was angry that God had rejected his sacrifice;  "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it" (vv. 6-7)

God's admonition to Cain that he "must rule over the sin" is a direct commandment that defies your conviction that one must be regenerated in order to obey God. God says to Cain, "It is up to you."
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 05:01:18
This post follows Reply # 32~I know and I'm persuaded of God's existence based upon the superiority of God's testimony
Precisely.  And that testimony is two-fold.  The first is creation itself.  Paul says creation is sufficient evidence that God exists.  The second is God's written word.  And it is the written word, the Scriptures, that gives us the evidence for who and what God is, His nature, His character traits, His very being.  It is that testimony which presents the evidence for the existence of God.  Still not proof, but certainly all the evidence that is needed to believe, to have faith.  Faith not proof.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 07:27:21
Alan, pray to tell me you are not saying that we cannot use the scriptures to prove God's existence ~


To believers, the scriptures are truth, to non-believers the scriptures are fiction and therefore not a viable source of proof for the non-believer.


Have you ever done any street evangelizing? If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer. I've had many people begin to question the "reason" for God once you begin to show some logic into cause and effect. In your personal life you may stand on the Bible as the infallible source of wisdom and if you approached me on the street I would high five you with a big AMEN! Others simply do not respond well to religion first and logic second, probably much the same as someone attempting to convince me that The Watchtower is be-all-end-all-defacto-truth.   
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 10:30:24

To believers, the scriptures are truth, to non-believers the scriptures are fiction and therefore not a viable source of proof for the non-believer.


Have you ever done any street evangelizing? If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer. I've had many people begin to question the "reason" for God once you begin to show some logic into cause and effect. In your personal life you may stand on the Bible as the infallible source of wisdom and if you approached me on the street I would high five you with a big AMEN! Others simply do not respond well to religion first and logic second, probably much the same as someone attempting to convince me that The Watchtower is be-all-end-all-defacto-truth.

Apparently Dawkins can write books that convince people to embrace atheism
Scientists can write studies that convince people to embrace evolution
Muhammad can write the Quran and convince people to embrace Islam

...but the Bible is insufficient to convince people of anything
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 11:30:13
Apparently Dawkins can write books that convince people to embrace atheism


Muhammad can write the Quran and convince people to embrace Islam

...but the Bible is insufficient to convince people of anything


You can ask people all day long to read the Bible. Are they gonna do it? Probably with about the same results as you'll find them reading the other things you posted.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 11:48:46
Scientists can write studies that convince people to embrace evolution


This has zero to do with this discussion.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: soterion on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 20:55:08

To believers, the scriptures are truth, to non-believers the scriptures are fiction and therefore not a viable source of proof for the non-believer.


Have you ever done any street evangelizing? If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer. I've had many people begin to question the "reason" for God once you begin to show some logic into cause and effect. In your personal life you may stand on the Bible as the infallible source of wisdom and if you approached me on the street I would high five you with a big AMEN! Others simply do not respond well to religion first and logic second, probably much the same as someone attempting to convince me that The Watchtower is be-all-end-all-defacto-truth.

Just because something is not accepted as evidence does not make it nonevidentiary. It just means that those who do not accept it do not believe. That holds true for any evidence used to try and prove anything. Flat earthers do not accept the obvious evidence for a spherical earth.

I understand that logic can work with some folks, though not many. Since I would rather focus on Jesus and the Bible, rather than just that a god exists, I would have to try and convince skeptics that the Bible is the word of God, then go on to show who Jesus is.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: Alan on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 21:08:23
Just because something is not accepted as evidence does not make it nonevidentiary. It just means that those who do not accept it do not believe. That holds true for any evidence used to try and prove anything. Flat earthers do not accept the obvious evidence for a spherical earth.

I agree. More often than not people place barriers between the evidence and their personal views, it makes it quite difficult to gain any ground with these type but there are ways that can be successful if you use a bit of tact.
Quote

I understand that logic can work with some folks, though not many. Since I would rather focus on Jesus and the Bible, rather than just that a god exists, I would have to try and convince skeptics that the Bible is the word of God, then go on to show who Jesus is.

Yeah, in a perfect world that would be the best option but as we know, this is a far from perfect world. In my experiences it was most difficult to engage the disbelievers with the merits of Jesus and the Bible as a hole.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us that are saved it is the power of God.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: soterion on Wed Jan 16, 2019 - 21:16:27
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us that are saved it is the power of God.

Romans 10:13-17.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
and how shall they preach, except they be sent?

even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things! But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 ::smile::
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: AVZ on Thu Jan 17, 2019 - 02:26:16
Just because something is not accepted as evidence does not make it nonevidentiary. It just means that those who do not accept it do not believe. That holds true for any evidence used to try and prove anything. Flat earthers do not accept the obvious evidence for a spherical earth.

I understand that logic can work with some folks, though not many. Since I would rather focus on Jesus and the Bible, rather than just that a god exists, I would have to try and convince skeptics that the Bible is the word of God, then go on to show who Jesus is.

The fact that God holds all who reject the truth responsible for it, shows that Gods presence and Gods Word are undeniably evident.

To reason that a non-believer cannot be convinced by scripture because he doesn't believe it is a non-intelligible claim.
Even if you would be able to proof that a god exists, you still have the challenge to prove that the God of the Bible is the one.
So if indeed unbelief is a reason not to bring the Bible to the table...then what hope do you have you ever can?

Scripture states that unbelievers are without excuse.
That means that we are not talking about accidental unbelievers...we are talking about people who reject the truth purposely.
You think unbelievers don't know the Bible is the truth? Of course they do, they just don't want to have it.

It is really very sad that some Christians think Gods Word cannot stand on its own and cannot prove itself.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Thu Jan 17, 2019 - 04:31:50
It is really very sad that some Christians think Gods Word cannot stand on its own and cannot prove itself.
It is really sad that some Christians, and non-Christians also, do not understand what really constitutes evidence and what constitutes proof.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Thu Jan 17, 2019 - 05:11:04
Have you ever done any street evangelizing?
I have not, and it's foolish to do so in our day, maybe seventy-five years ago, that would have work, maybe, but those days are long gone. Even in the NT, for the most part, was done in designated places....temple, synagogues, homes, etc. It serves no purpose other than allowing people to mock the truth of those that truly have it and speak it to those who show an interest in hearing the truth. I know you understand this, and so does everyone else with a little biblical knowledge.
Quote from: Alan Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 07:27:21
If you come across someone that rejects creation and God it is a difficult process to engage in meaningful discussion with such a person .
Well, my friend, I have a thousand times over~my father-in-law who lives on my property in his class A RV when he's not traveling. He hates Republicans, religion, and would NEVER acknowledge God, never. I honor him as my wife's Stepfather in law, but no more than that. He's a true biblical fool, even though a genius by the world's standard of measuring people, he is still truly a fool by God's standard.
Quote from: Alan Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 07:27:21
but truth be told, many of the lost do indeed seek a meaningful existence than the scholastic textbooks offer
His god is evolution~and I'll leave it there keep from hijacking this thread. The last meaningful discussion we had where I left him unable to answer my questions and his only comebacks were so pitiful that he got very frustrated with me that it almost turned into hatred~ and maybe it did I care less. Here's the discussion that should fit well into this thread..................................... 

We were sitting on the Atlantic Ocean in our lounge chairs and I thought I would see if I could reason with him to help him see that there IS a God that created all things~so I said, Is it no a marvel and a wonder the way the tide works SO PERFECTLY that they can build great cities RIGHT ON THE VERY EDGE of these powerful, proud waves, KNOWING  exactly years ahead of time where they will stop and how far they will go out within a fraction of an inch, without having ANY FEAR that the cities of the world (and I named many of them that sit right on the edge of the oceans of the world) ever being overtaken of the powerful seas of this world, no fear whatsoever BASED ON GOD"S PERFECT CREATION of all things!

Then he said like any fool would (for they cannot keep from showing their ignorance)~they HAVE overtaken the land millions of years ago because they have found large whale bones on land~whether or not that is true or not matters little to me, but I said back to him, well, all that proves to me is that there was a flood in the days of Noah just as the bible said, and "IF" they did find whales bones, then all that does is add support to the scriptures NOT against God's perfect and orderly creation with its four seasons arriving perfectly every year.

I also try to talk with him about the human body how EVERY PART is in its perfect place with a job to do, to make it as useful as it possibly can be and then the fool said.....If "I" had design it, I would have done the esophagus differently! At that point I was ready to leave this fool alone and did, for the most part, I never reason with him again to amount to anything and that was maybe twenty-five plus years ago. BUT, when he eats in my house or we go out to eat, he will bow his head while I offer up thanksgiving to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and Red and Sherry Baker his stepdaughter.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 03:48:09
Quote
Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Another argument would be for us to consider "the history of the scriptures" that declares to us of God's existence.

Simple observation of the universe's design, order, and power shows God's existence; but the origin of man is only explained with any reasonableness from Genesis 1-2.

The popularity of a "big bang" turning chaotic matter into our beautiful world is nothing more than self-protecting hallucination i.e. The Emperor's New Clothes.

The mutational theory of salamanders choosing to become bald eagles is insane, and it requires no more in the way of refutation than pointing out its nakedness. Since there is no evidence of its truthfulness, and it is so ridiculously defended, there is no reason to waste time refuting the mere hallucinations of God-haters. Charles Darwin confused variations in finches with monkeys becoming ladies; not because he wisely proved evolution, but because he was a pagan dreamer; and he died accordingly, doubting most everything and without hope.

Muslims think God created Adam from a dried blood clot (Koran 96:1-2). The only history of our origin making sense is the Biblical account in Genesis, and it is consistent with all scientific evidence. For proof, check these sources: http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Index.htm.
http://www.christianhomeschoolers.com/creation/main.shtml.

An infinite Creator capable and willing to create immortal souls is easy enough, and man's present condition of slow death due to sin from Genesis 3 is most reasonable. Therefore, the existence of death is only explained adequately by the Bible.

Modern pagans must do two things to convince us they are sane~explain the origin of life and the origin of death with scientific proof, reasonable evidence, duplication, or believable authority. Until then, we shall consider them fools. Forget dealing with death, around death, or about death; tell us its origin, purpose, accomplishment, and its remedy; then we might listen for two minutes.

How did man learn to plant, harvest, and process the various grains for the production of food? Obviously, the African and the American Indian, among other cultures, never learned such things~and are still WAY BEHIND! God taught this knowledge to man by inspiration (Isaiah 28:23-29). Do you have a better explanation? What happened to the first twenty generations in (well, we will not mention names on this forum) scheme, while they were learning by trial and error how to produce food?

The Bible describes a worldwide flood, which is proven by numerous methods, both scientific and historical. Whether the Grand Canyon or oral traditions and legends in many nations, the evidence for the Bible's flood is significant. If you need help with the evidence for Noah's flood, see: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/flood.asp.

Where did so many languages~and their great diversity - come from? If not from the Tower of Babel, then where? Did monkey speech evolve into English and Chinese in some evolutionary process? Did Darwin have a theory of natural selection for Chinese characters over our alphabet? See http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4190cen_d1999.asp.

The Bible, recording the history of Israel, touches upon many nations and rulers, which have been found to agree perfectly with the best archeological and historical studies, though some have not been confirmed until recent archaeological finds. If you love to see God and His Word vindicated, then see the following links.
http://www.grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/4archaeology.html.
http://www.probe.org/docs/arch-ot.html.
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/historical_evid.html.
http://www.gospelcom.net/faithfacts/maps_a.html.
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html.

We have a seven-day week, because God gave it to Adam and wrote it in the Bible~the ONLY reason we have it!  The hours in a day, the days in a month, and the days in a year are all based on astronomical movements of the sun (from our perspective), earth, and moon. But the only explanation for all nations and languages perpetually observing a seven-day week is based on the creation account and week determination given in the Bible (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17). Noah, being a man who walked with God (Genesis 6:9), brought the seven-day week through the flood. Moses, being God's messenger for the establishment of national and public worship in Israel, established the ceremonial requirements of the seventh day. This point alone could be enough to convince a reasonable man of the Bible and ITS AUTHOR and HIS EXISTENCE. What do others say about the origin of the seventh day? Consider these pages:  (1) http://www.tagnet.org/llt/science.htm. (2) http://cjvlang.com/Dow/dowlinks.html.

Tacitus, Roman historian of great integrity, wrote that Pontius Pilate crucified Jesus in the reign of Tiberias Caesar. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/cornel.html.
Pilate testified of Jesus' miracles. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/pilate.html.
Josephus testified of His miracles. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/joseph.html.
Thallus admits three dark hours. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/thallus.html.
Many witnessed of Jesus Christ. See http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/hist/main.html.
"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible and its Author's existence than in any other profane history" (Sir Isaac Newton; 1642-1727; Scientist and Inventor).
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 06:24:03
The popularity of a "big bang" turning chaotic matter into our beautiful world is nothing more than self-protecting hallucination i.e. The Emperor's New Clothes.
Quote from: RB
An infinite Creator capable and willing to create immortal souls is easy enough
Let me make certain that I understand your thinking here.  Creating immortal souls is easy for God to do and for us to understand, but creating the big bang is quite outside of His capability.  That seems almost oxymoronic to me. There can be no serious argument that all of the laws of physics [that God created] point inexorably to the big bang and things as they now exist.  On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that points to immortal souls of men.  You can't even give a reasonable description of what the soul of man even is, let alone what an immortal one might be. If there were ever a "self-protecting hallucination", it would be the idea of immortality.  There is absolutely no evidence in this world that would ever point to that.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 07:56:55
Let me make certain that I understand your thinking here.  Creating immortal souls is easy for God to do and for us to understand, but creating the big bang is quite outside of His capability. 
4WD, as I have said to you once before, the "only" big bang that ever occurred happened when God Almighty said LET THERE BE and it came to past just as He willed creation to be as we see it NOW.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #55 on: Today at 06:24:03
On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing in the entire universe that points to immortal souls of men.
True, we learn everything for the testimony of God and apart from his testimony, we would be in total darkness concerning everything from creation to us as human being, etc. "The history" of the word of God gives us a solid foundation to build our faith on as to the veracity of all truths concerning God's existence and the knowledge of his Infinite being and his will and purposes for us, etc.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #55 on: Today at 06:24:03
You can't even give a reasonable description of what the soul of man even is
Your wrong, we can~but that's a different study. We have before and will be glad to find that thread for you when I have time to do so.
Quote
If there were ever a "self-protecting hallucination", it would be the idea of immortality
NOT when one believes God's testimony concerning immortality. Immortality is NOT an ideal but a blessed truth revealed in the holy scriptures. You know that to be so, do not play dumb as though it is not revealed to us by God.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Timothy 1:9, 10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"
Quote from: 4WD Reply #55 on: Today at 06:24:03
There is absolutely no evidence in this world that would ever point to that.
Really? I just gave to you Paul's witness that immortality has come TO LIGHT through the gospel....IF one truly understands the gospel. 

The big bang theory as you understand it, has caused deafness to your ears, and blindness to your eyes. Selah.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 08:16:07
The big bang theory as you understand it, has caused deafness to your ears, and blindness to your eyes. Selah.
Not really, I just think God is so much greater, more holy, more merciful, more majestic, more powerful, wiser, more glorious, more loving, etc., etc. than you do.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 08:25:00
Not really, I just think God is so much greater, more holy, more merciful, more majestic, more powerful, wiser, more glorious, more loving, etc., etc. than you do.
Dear sir, I trust that you will indeed excel me in every area of your life~ I'm not in a personal race with any man to excel them, I just have one desire and that desire is to please God and exalt his word above every opinion of man and for me to live by every word that proceedeth out of His holy lips for us to believe and live by.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 08:40:21
I just have one desire and that desire is to ...... exalt his word above every opinion of man
I don't think you do that.  I truly believe that you exalt Reformed theologians word above His.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: RB on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 15:33:49
I don't think you do that.  I truly believe that you exalt Reformed theologians word above His.
You do not understand the difference between what I believe and Reformed theology ~we are not even close.
Title: Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
Post by: 4WD on Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 16:14:42
You do not understand the difference between what I believe and Reformed theology ~we are not even close.
Yes I do understand that difference.  But the significant point is that you both begin with the foundation of the false doctrine of Total Depravity and everything after that is false as well. So that it doesn't really matter which way you go, it will wrong.