Author Topic: Your Best Argument for God's Existence  (Read 1003 times)

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Offline EDM

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Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 04:36:01 »
Here's mine:
Proof God exists is SUPER EASY for anyone to understand (sadly, the stubborn denier is the exception):

1) Each DNA contains 100 million pages worth of instructions to build the entire body. Do instructions write themselves? Nope. Instructions don't write themselves. Behind every instruction is an 'instructor' who authored it. Carl Sagan said: "The information content of a simple cell has been established as around one trillion bits, comparable to about 100 million pages of the Encyclopaedia Britannica."

2) Every genome is written as a quaternary molecular digital code: "All present life is based on digitally-encoded information." (American Academy of Sciences). Do digital programs write themselves? Nope again.

3) Each cell contains hi-tech miniature organs (organelles - nucleus, golgi bodies, mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc.) - none of which are naturally found elsewhere - hence no natural explanation for their existence.

4) Who can write a 100 million pages worth of instructions and then stuff it into every cell of our body? This hyper-intellect is who we will face on Judgment Day.

With item (1) almost every reasonable person acknowledges that they have never seen nor heard of instructions writing themselves. This is common sense to most people although not all.

Some argue they see all the above occur in nature when cells reproduce. However, there is still no explanation how the very first living cell came about with all those instructions in its DNA, and although some theorize that organelles were first formed by bacteria invading a host 'cell', we've never seen organelles produced by such a mechanism nor has such a mechanism ever been DEMONSTRATED and VALIDATED by any study.

Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #1 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 06:19:46 »
Those are certainly compelling reasons to believe in the existence of God.  They do not prove the existence of God.  If God actually wanted to provide us with the proof of His existence, then most definitely, He being God, could have done so.  But He didn't.  It seems obvious that He chose not to provide that proof.  His purpose seems to be that he wants those who respond because of faith, not because of proof.  He has provided all that is necessary for anyone to believe in Him, i.e., have faith in Him.  Some will believe and some will not.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 07:19:15 »
I don't genuinely have an argument that I could use to irrefutably prove God's existence, as 4WD stated, it is a faith thing rather than tangible evidence.

I do however believe the essence and balance of nature is very compelling in my personal views. I'm also a proponent of some profound philosophical quotes such as Kalam's Cosmological Argument;

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist.


Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Or, "why is there something rather than nothing?"


Something must either be caused to exist or it exists of it's own nature.


We know full well that the universe had a beginning and are also quite sure it will have an end. It did not come into existence from nothing, even the most ardent atheist cosmologists agree that "something" triggered the singularity into expansion.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 07:43:11 »
You are presenting evidence not proof. God has presented all the evidence needed to believe but still not a proof.

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 07:43:11 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 10:25:44 »
I see proof in the billions of people whose lives have been changed, healed and restored.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 11:04:36 »
You are presenting evidence not proof. God has presented all the evidence needed to believe but still not a proof.


Yes, that's why I said I had no genuine proof but to me the evidence points toward creation.

Offline Dave_UK

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 05:40:52 »
To me - the best argument lies in Paul's statement  "Those that would come to God must believe that He exists, and is a rewarder of those who seek His face"  Reach out to Him and (if you haven't put up barriers) He will reach out to you!  As believers, think of the countless kindnesses He shows us as we travel through life.  OK so we are not immune to problems and difficulties - but somehow, He brings us through them - maybe walking wounded - but "still in the fray".  Life wasn't meant to be easy - "no cross, no crown" - in Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote "It seems to me that God's purpose is to test men - to see what they truly are".  Well are we "wimps" or "fighters"? I feel most desperately sad for those who have no experience of His over-arching care for us. They have no-one to turn to over their cares - they just have to "put up" with them! I know scoffers will say that makes "religion" a moral "crutch" - but my retort is "Genuinely try it, and see!" - The psalmists are "hot" on the business of "Taste the Lord and see that He is good!" - so, many others through the ages have found it to be true!
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:14:12 by Dave_UK »

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #7 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:07:43 »
To me - the best argument lies in Paul's statement  "Those that would come to God must believe that He exists, and is a rewarder of those who seek His face"  Reach out to Him and (if you haven't put up barriers) He will reach out to you!  As believers, think of the countless kindnesses He shows us as we travel through life.  OK so we are not immune to problems and difficulties - but somehow, He brings us through them - maybe walking wounded - but "still in the fray".  Life wasn't meant to be easy - "no cross, no crown" - in Ecclesiastes, Solomon wrote "It seems to me that God's purpose is to test men - to see what they truly are".  Well are we "wimps" or "fighters"? I feel most desperately sad for those who have no experience of His over-arching care for us!


Relevant to believers or those that may be seeking a greater existence but pretty much useless to use against those that dismiss the existence of God.

Offline Dave_UK

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:18:36 »
Hi Alan!  Ooooh! - you were quick to reply before I had finished thinking (my "noddle" is slowing up, with increasing age) -  by adding : -

"They have no-one to turn to over their cares - they just have to "put up" with them! I know scoffers will say that makes "religion" a moral "crutch" - but my retort is "Genuinely, try it, and see!" - The psalmists are "hot" on the business of "Taste the Lord and see that He is good!" - so, many others through the ages have found it to be true! "

If a lot of bods recommend something - it's worth looking into their recommends!

This may be following a false trail, but recently a letter from Einstein was auctioned (they call it the God Letter) in which he "poohs-poohs" the possibility of a "Higher Entity"  - yet one of the pervading features of his work is the presence of the factor "c" for the velocity of light.  Um! that's "funny" didn't Paul write "God is light, in Him is no darkness at all" - and the first act of creation was to create light.  Just thinking!!!
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:30:11 by Dave_UK »

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:28:32 »
Hi Alan!  Ooooh! - you were quick to reply before I had finished thinking -  by adding : -

"They have no-one to turn to over their cares - they just have to "put up" with them! I know scoffers will say that makes "religion" a moral "crutch" - but my retort is "Genuinely, try it, and see!" - The psalmists are "hot" on the business of "Taste the Lord and see that He is good!" - so, many others through the ages have found it to be true! "

If a lot of bods recommend something - it's worth looking into their recommends!


In my experience the ardent disbeliever will most certainly scoff at the idea of being shown relevance in scripture, they'll usually dismiss the pages as a fairy tale written by men for gullible men.
As soon as you have a person that begins questioning their existence, there are many excellent verses in the Bible that will get that persons attention.
It depends on where the person's mindset is that you are speaking to, proceed with caution.   

Offline Dave_UK

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:34:12 »
Hi Alan - you've replied too soon again - my thoughts work like treacle - see my reference to "c"!

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #11 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 06:47:54 »
Hi Alan - you've replied too soon again - my thoughts work like treacle - see my reference to "c"!


Interesting, Einstein used C as a part of his equation to calculate energy. God used light to overcome the darkness (voids) where energy is observable.  ::smile::

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 09:03:00 »
I believe that God has given us evidence of His existence in His creation, knowledge of His existence in our conscience and proof of His existence in Christ.
Man by nature knows God exist, and he does not need an argument or proof. Gods existence is self-evident.
Those who reject God do so against better judgement.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #13 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 09:52:42 »
Those who reject God do so against better judgement.


Maybe so, but it is a fact nonetheless. Many people will not even so much engage in a discussion regarding God but when you do run into sensible people it's nice to have some kind of philosophy to throw at them, perhaps open their minds a bit.

Offline Dave_UK

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #14 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 13:31:05 »
Just tossing another thought into the ring!  Even atheists are struck by the beauty of unspoilt nature - and that makes them wonder!   ::pondering:: Paul writes in Romans 1:19-20 "For all that may be known of God by men lies plain before their eyes; indeed God Himself has disclosed it to them. His invisible attributes, that is to say His everlasting power and deity, have been visible ever since the world began, to the eye of reason, in the things He has made.

On a different tack - I don't remember who was involved but it was some eminent early 20C Britishers I think. One challenged the other what proof he had that God actually existed.  The other simply responded "The Jews!"  Despite all the best efforts of the forces of darkness etc, surrounded by enemies on every side, and their own stiff-necked obstinate sinful behaviour - God still keeps His promise to them of His care, as His chosen people. (BTW Don't mention "Replacement Theology" to me::frown::)
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 01:24:57 by Dave_UK »

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #15 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 20:13:42 »

Maybe so, but it is a fact nonetheless. Many people will not even so much engage in a discussion regarding God but when you do run into sensible people it's nice to have some kind of philosophy to throw at them, perhaps open their minds a bit.

What you want me to say?

The whole of creation is a testimony to Gods existence.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who buy into secular speculations that parts of it all have come about by natural means.

The Bible is a testimony of Gods existence and sovereignty.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who side with the secular world that parts of it are not necessarily correct, or that described events did not really happen the way they were described.

The fact that we have moral laws is a testimony to a Lawgiver.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who consider morality part of a social evolutionary process.

Humans are special. Every human knows this. We are not animals.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians testifying to the "fact" that we originate from apes.


I don't think we have to find arguments for God's existence. God has made it very clear to everybody.
Whether secular or not, nobody can get around God and everybody knows it.
The problem is that we feeding the secular world with doubts and objections because many of us have caved to secular ideologies, and we have proceeded to interweave them with sound theology.

I find it very strange that you claim not to have irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Look around you. Can you touch a tree? Hold a baby? There you have it...irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Pick up a Bible...again irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.

The problem is that we are surrounded by irrefutable and tangible evidence of God's existence, but many Christians are following secular thoughts and have started to explain these things away as natural events.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #16 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 20:18:15 »
What you want me to say?

The whole of creation is a testimony to Gods existence.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who buy into secular speculations that parts of it all have come about by natural means.

The Bible is a testimony of Gods existence and sovereignty.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who side with the secular world that parts of it are not necessarily correct, or that described events did not really happen the way they were described.

The fact that we have moral laws is a testimony to a Lawgiver.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians who consider morality part of a social evolutionary process.

Humans are special. Every human knows this. We are not animals.
Unfortunately we have a whole bunch of Christians testifying to the "fact" that we originate from apes.


I don't think we have to find arguments for God's existence. God has made it very clear to everybody.
Whether secular or not, nobody can get around God and everybody knows it.
The problem is that we feeding the secular world with doubts and objections because many of us have caved to secular ideologies, and we have proceeded to interweave them with sound theology.

I find it very strange that you claim not to have irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Look around you. Can you touch a tree? Hold a baby? There you have it...irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.
Pick up a Bible...again irrefutable and tangible evidence for God.

The problem is that we are surrounded by irrefutable and tangible evidence of God's existence, but many Christians are following secular thoughts and have started to explain these things away as natural events.


None of those things are proof.

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 21:14:48 »
Quote
Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

The universe began to exist.

Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Or, "why is there something rather than nothing?"


Something must either be caused to exist or it exists of it's own nature.

This is very close to an argument of Aquinas in Summa Theologica.


The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

    We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

    Nothing exists prior to itself.

    Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.

    If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).

    Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

    If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

    That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).

    Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.

    Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.


I do not find any of them absolutely compelling, but they are certainly reasonable.   Nevertheless, faith remains an essential part of approaching an understanding of God.   

Offline soterion

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 21:15:14 »
Maybe when dealing with atheists is it important to provide evidence for a higher power, but isn't it so much more important to point out evidence for Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Many of the things provided so far here can point to a god of some kind, but many people believe in a god, though not the God of the Bible and certainly not Jesus as Savior. Evidence such as changed lives, answered prayer, the creation, and others, can be testified to by many people of many different religions, but only Christians can testify to Jesus.

So, what evidence do we have for our claims about Jesus?  The Bible, in particular, the New Testament, although the Old correctly understood speaks of and points to Him.

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jan 13, 2019 - 23:14:10 »

None of those things are proof.

Of course to you these things do not constitute proof, because you have bought into the notion that we are the product of evolution and the Bible is subject to secular interpretation.

Scripture however makes it very clear that what we see around us is proof of God's existence, and there is no excuse denying it:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 04:24:12 »
Of course to you these things do not constitute proof, because you have bought into the notion that we are the product of evolution and the Bible is subject to secular interpretation.

Scripture however makes it very clear that what we see around us is proof of God's existence, and there is no excuse denying
it
If there is proof, then there is no need for faith.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 11:08:26 »
Of course to you these things do not constitute proof, because you have bought into the notion that we are the product of evolution and the Bible is subject to secular interpretation.


The Bible is NOT proof of anything to people that do not believe it, try harder to follow along here.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 11:26:00 »

So, what evidence do we have for our claims about Jesus?  The Bible, in particular, the New Testament, although the Old correctly understood speaks of and points to Him.


I've heard many people deny Jesus existence but historians say otherwise. As I recall, there exists much evidence that confirms NT literature to be historically correct. The one I find quite compelling is the history of Pilate. Sure would be an absurdity to author the gospels as a fictional tale yet include genuine people that directly interacted with the supposed fictional characters.

The Wiki article has more than enough information regarding Pilate. Just one small piece that points toward Jesus existence as genuine.

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 17:34:10 »

The Bible is NOT proof of anything to people that do not believe it, try harder to follow along here.

Apparently it also is not proof to people who claim to believe the Bible.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 17:42:50 »
Apparently it also is not proof to people who claim to believe the Bible.


You are trying VERY hard to derail this topic into something that was not intended. This is a warning, DO NOT GO THERE!!

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 19:37:16 »

You are trying VERY hard to derail this topic into something that was not intended. This is a warning, DO NOT GO THERE!!

Nonsense.
None of the scriptural arguments make sense to a non-believer if he chooses not to believe it, and neither does the Cosmological argument for those who have alternative theories.

The Bible IS proof of God's existence and it is sad you don't recognize it for what it is.
But maybe that's the core reason why you allow yourself the liberty to declare parts of it metaphorical.

The Bible is Gods Word and if you can't pick up a Bible and point a non-believer to Gods Word...then you have no basis whatsoever to make any argument for the existence of God.
If the Bible is no proof for God and you declare it as such, then any non-believer will rightly conclude that your faith is based on nothing.

Offline Alan

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 21:25:42 »
Nonsense.
None of the scriptural arguments make sense to a non-believer if he chooses not to believe it, and neither does the Cosmological argument for those who have alternative theories.

The Bible IS proof of God's existence and it is sad you don't recognize it for what it is.
But maybe that's the core reason why you allow yourself the liberty to declare parts of it metaphorical.

The Bible is Gods Word and if you can't pick up a Bible and point a non-believer to Gods Word...then you have no basis whatsoever to make any argument for the existence of God.
If the Bible is no proof for God and you declare it as such, then any non-believer will rightly conclude that your faith is based on nothing.


You're preaching to the choir, of course scripture validates itself to me but that isn't what we are discussing in this thread.

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 21:36:25 »

You're preaching to the choir, of course scripture validates itself to me but that isn't what we are discussing in this thread.

Of course that's what we are talking about.
What gives you the right to say that scripture validates itself to you but not to a non-believer?

Offline Dave_UK

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 02:49:15 »

Interesting, Einstein used C as a part of his equation to calculate energy. God used light to overcome the darkness (voids) where energy is observable.  ::smile::

In my youth (yonks ago sadly!) I was (obsessively - since I filled several notebooks on my understandings of Einstein's work and ploughed through several textbooks, with their problems/solutions!) concerned with what was at that time (to me at least) the frontiers of maths (Although very much a "Johnny come lately"!).  So I was "into" Tensor Calculus (Covariant Differentiation and similar stuff!), and greatly interested to learn how Einstein used that in his General Relativity work, and the use of Riemannian Geometry (particularly his extension from the Euclidean space line element  - describing "flat" space - to incorporate mass/time, with all that inclusion implied).  I worked through Eddingtons book on G.R. - fascinated by how G.R. predicted the decay/alteration of orbits etc, and the behaviour of binary stellar systems (that of the rarer multiple element systems still, I believe, beyond our ability to fully evaluate the complex interactions).  I remember my amazement at seeing how the "c" factor worked in something apparently as straightforward as the "vector" addition of two velocities together, so that "c" could not (theoretically) be exceeded.  So it wasn't just E=mc^2 stuff! 

That led me on to look at what I thought was going to be a fascinating field, the Topology of spaces ("non-flat" spaces, and those immersed in hyper-spaces) - but found it disappointingly abstract - I remember one critic's rather vulgar comment about the Klein Bottle (a re-entrant surface) - I will not repeat it here!  A book on "String Theory" whetted my appetite on the posited possibility that our universe, as we understand it, might be just part of a multi-verse - just one of many "little universes", bubbles of existence on the "surface" of a frothy multi-dimensional "sea" of .... "who-knows-what" - of unfathomable complexity!

And here we are, on this thread talking about God's existence!?  It's all too great, too vast, too complex, for our little intellects - IMO we come back to the ending of the book of Job in the Bible "I have spoken of great things which I have not understood, things too wonderful for me to know....Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes."


It seems to me, that the older one gets (and hopefully the more "learn-ed") - one comes to appreciate just how little we actually know! Yes! knowledge increases (as prophesied for the End Time) - but are we truly any the wiser about what "it's" all about? Am reminded of what Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 3:14b "And He has done it all in such a way that men must feel awe in His Presence."
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:22:02 by Dave_UK »

Offline RB

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 03:46:25 »
You're preaching to the choir, of course scripture validates itself to me but that isn't what we are discussing in this thread.
Alan, pray to tell me you are not saying that we cannot use the scriptures to prove God's existence ~ I agree with AVZ....
Quote from: AVZ Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 19:37:16 ยป
The Bible IS proof of God's existence and it is sad you don't recognize it for what it is. But maybe that's the core reason why you allow yourself the liberty to declare parts of it metaphorical.
You do not need to use threats with shouting words.
Quote from: Alan Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 17:42:50
This is a warning, DO NOT GO THERE!!
Of course, they do not intimate me in the least. I will be posting based on this scripture and others:
Quote from: The Holy Ghost
Acts 1:2~"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
The holy scriptures give to us many infallible proofs of God existence as well.

Only believers can be persuaded by proofs, an unbeliever cannot be even if you provided thousands of infallible proofs out of God's creation...and there are some there btw~ BUT, it is useless to argue OUTSIDE of the word of God with unbelievers, if they will not hear God's word, they have no hope of eternal life for life, for Jesus Christ IS eternal life; and we will add, FAITH is a gift given by God, you either believe what is written or you do not believe. Proofs believed whether in scriptures or out of them only adds comfort, joy security to the beleiving saints! Btw, God's elect need no conformation other than God's very own testimony. Too bad that's not enough for men like you.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 03:57:08 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:04:17 »
Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.
The OP did not say that one could not use scriptures~it said:
Quote from: EDM Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 04:36:01
I would like to hear your argument for God's existence
I take that to mean use whatever argument you have that best would prove God's existence.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #31 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:33:46 »
Alan, pray to tell me you are not saying that we cannot use the scriptures to prove God's existence
In order that the Scriptures prove God's existence, you must first prove that the Scriptures are the inerrant word of God.  And that, by any measure, is a circular argument.  There really is proof of neither and I think that is God's intention.  With proof there is no need for faith and it is faith which God desires. There is sufficient evidence that the Bible is true and with that then there is sufficient evidence that God exists and is as the Bible declares.  But that is the end of it.  There is no proof.

Offline RB

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #32 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:37:47 »
Quote from:  EDM on Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 04:36:01
Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.
We are Bible Christians, which means we follow the Bible's record of Jesus Christ and His teachings. Our religion is simple ~it is nothing more and nothing less than following Jesus Christ according to the Bible. We believe God wrote the Bible to reveal Himself, (apart from the scriptures we WOULD NOT know God) His Son Jesus Christ, the truth about the universe and His religion, and everything we need to know to live successful lives in this world and the world to come.

We do not base our Christianity on tradition, history, creeds, commentaries, popular opinion, a national religion, denominational dictates, personal preferences, almanac distinctions, our culture, science so called, or anything else. We cannot call ourselves Christians without establishing the authority of the Bible, for it is in the Bible we learn about the man Jesus Christ and the form of religion that we observe in a New Testament church. Apart from the Bible we have no true knowledge of Jesus Christ or understanding of the proper worship of God, for we are truly bound by this written revelation from God for all we know and do in a religious way.

We can and should put our faith to the test, for the vast majority of the human race have spent their lives believing numerous lies on many subjects. Putting our religion to the test is not only wise, but the Bible commands it (Ist Thessalonians 5:21; Acts 17:11; Isaiah 41:21; Ist John 4:1; Revelation 2:2; Matthew 7:15-20).

God's existence is obvious by the natural creation and our ability to recognize it, and to deny this is to place one's self outside the realm of reasonable discussion (Psalm 14:1-4; 19:1-3; Proverbs 9:10; Eccl 12:13; Romans 1:19-21; Acts 17:24; 2nd Thess 3:2). No one in the Bible ever worried about those who rejected the existence of God, and neither will we. Such fools will meet Him soon enough, and they will be without excuse, for the natural creation is more than sufficient. While this presumption is not why we believe in God, we will nevertheless prove it absolutely true, if we are able to prove that the Bible is His Word to man.

It is not enough to know the existence of God, either by the natural creation or by internal witness, for we can only acquire the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His teachings from the Bible; they are not revealed in the natural creation, but by reading and teaching the Bible (John 5:39; Ist Timothy 6:3-5; Romans 16:17-18,25-27).

It is only reasonable God would communicate with His creatures, so we also presume this matter to initiate our examination of the Bible. When we wish to communicate as strongly as possible, we do so in writing i.e. contracts, documents, letters, etc. The Bible admits this fact (2nd Peter 1:16-19; Esther 1:19; 3:9; 8:5,8). If we prove that God wrote the Bible, then we will have also proven this assumption. If we cannot prove God wrote the Bible or any other book, we must then determine if God did communicate to man at all.

But our two safe presumptions still leave us in this situation ~one of the holy books in the earth is God's Word or none of them are~ for they are all contradictory and violently opposed to one another. Is it reasonable and right to trust the Bible, when there are so many other religious books in the world, like the Koran, the Vita, Veda, the Talmud, Science and Health, and the Book of Mormon among many others?

It is impossible to separate divine evidence from the need for faith, and we have no reason to do so. If a person will not believe proof that God is the Author, he is unreasonable and without faith. The man not born again cannot see the kingdom of God, for the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God: they are foolish to him, for he cannot discern them. Natural arguments to prove spiritual truth to natural men is the most futile objective in the universe, for God must first give life and light (Luke 16:31; John 3:3; Ist Cor 2:14; Matt 7:6; Prov 14:7; 2nd Thess 3:2;2nd  Tim 2:24-26; 2nd Cor 4:1-7; Ist Cor 1:18-24; Ist John 5:20).

Where did Jesus, Philip, and Paul preach? Why did none of them try to prove the existence of God? Why did they assume it without question? They did not have to prove such, for THAT MUST be accepted or all effort to convert people is wasted effort.  The Bible assumes throughout that a person worshipping a stump is as dumb and ignorant as the stump (Psalm 115:8; 135:18; Isaiah 44:9-20; Habakkuk 2:18-20). Proving God's existence through creation or the word of God does nothing to a believer, but only adds MORE confirmation that his faith is not in vain~but FAITH must first be there, or all effort is lost on whoever we are talking to.

Later....RB



« Last Edit: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:44:03 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:46:55 »
The holy scriptures give to us many infallible proofs of God existence as well.

Only believers can be persuaded by proofs, an unbeliever cannot be even if you provided thousands of infallible proofs out of God's creation...and there are some there btw~ BUT, it is useless to argue OUTSIDE of the word of God with unbelievers, if they will not hear God's word, they have no hope of eternal life for life, for Jesus Christ IS eternal life; and we will add, FAITH is a gift given by God, you either believe what is written or you do not believe. Proofs believed whether in scriptures or out of them only adds comfort, joy security to the beleiving saints! Btw, God's elect need no conformation other than God's very own testimony. Too bad that's not enough for men like you.
And all of that is what you have backwards.  First, the Bible presents the evidence that it is true.  Nearly all of what is contained in the Bible is there to establish its truth.  From the evidence that the Bible is true, we then believe what it tells us.  Then from believing what the Bible says to us, we believe, i.e. have faith, in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel.

Rom 10:13  For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:49:20 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Your Best Argument for God's Existence
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 04:49:26 »
In order that the Scriptures prove God's existence, you must first prove that the Scriptures are the inerrant word of God.
No problem 4WD.

 

     
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