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I've complained about this for some time and heard a radio DJ talk about it this morning. I'm wondering if anyone else can see this as plainly as I.

In commercials now days, men are presented as total idiots. They are mocked and presented as the one who doesn't get it. The female is most always presented as the brilliant, enlightened one who has to explain to the "dumb male" what product is more advanced and smarter.

And if you look at sitcoms (Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, etc.)  the smart, enlightened woman often calls the man "idiot!" and he is always bumbling around, making goofy mistakes and making a total buffoon of himself.

It's with both commercials and sitcoms--pretty much anything on TV. My wife disagreed with me with I first began complaining about it to her. But after we counted the number of commercials one night where the guy was the unenlightened idiot and took note of how Debra treated Raymond...well...she admitted it was obvious. We've done other such experiments with the exact same result. When she put herself in my shoes she actually told me how sorry she was that society had become so anti-male.

And if it was flipped, I imagine that Hillary Clinton and the N.O.W. gang would be holding press conferences and buying commercial space to complain about it.

Has anyone else noticed this?!

Lee

What I've noticed about sitcoms is that everyone is so mean to each other.  For instance, in "Everybody Loves Raymond", though Raymond is portrayed as insensitive and rather bumbling, his wife Deborah is a nagging shrew.  It seems to be pretty much the same in other shows of this ilk.  I just don't watch them any more.

I haven't noticed the commercials being the way you described, maybe because I haven't been looking for it.  I'll have to be more observant.

In country music the guys are the bad ones, too.

My guess is that since women do most all of the shopping, they are going to be the ones portrayed favorably.  

However, I do hear some ads where the woman is the dumb one.

Why someone needs to be the dumb one, though, escapes me.

Then there are the "natural male enhancement" commercials where everyone looks like an idiot . . .

I've noticed it and everytime I mention it to someone I get called a woman hater.  A woman hater for just seeing the obvious.

Perry

First of all,  commercials appeal to us at a pretty low level.
Second,  every commercial is aimed at a specific target audience.
Most commercials are aimed at women because for most products,  it's women who are going to be buying the product.

So,  the advertisers are trying to sell a product to women,  and they're trying to do it by appealing to their baser instincts.

No surprise.   Just turn off the tube.   You'll be happier and have more money.

Another reason that the Andy Griffith Show is so awesome.

In Mayberry they look out for each other.

Bog, this is not just to tweak your beak, so be nice. :;):

But...James Dobson actually did write a pretty good analysis of this phenomenon in "Bringing Up Boys".

Andy Griffith's approach to 'family violence' would receive howls of disapproval from the feminists today, but it is still one of my favorite episodes:

"Good mornin', dear."

"Mornin', honey."

I don't watch sit-coms.  While some are extremly funny and really relate to life in general, I don't like shows that make others or call others idiots, etc, regardless of gender or put an enphasis on sexual content, especially the free sex-sleep with anyone attitude that seems to exist in many of these shows.

I have seen this particular trait (the male idiot) on sit-coms that my wife and kids have watched and I have seen it in commercials, just not quite as in-your-face as many of the sit-coms.  One has to remember that most sit-coms and commercials will play to what is "politically correct" at the time, whether it is openly putting men down, putting women down, race, sexuality, etc.  It is driven by the bottom line dollar profits, just like any other commercial enterprise.  Even "Home Improvements", which actually had more life reality in it than most sit-coms (and was a good "clean" show) had the male put-downs.  However, in their favor, any wife with a husband who is true handy-man/do-it-yourselfer/own every tool on the market as soon as it comes out/I can do it cheaper than the pro's attitude can probably relate to many of the situations that were in the show, and that show did build into the script some good moral values/lessons.

It has described me and my wife to a Tee many times :doh:   :help:

BOG wrote:

I heard the other day (on the radio, btw) that a study concluded that people spend an average of $8 more per hour of television watched.

I have finally found the solution to this stuff in my household.  My wife got me a TiVo for Christmas, and now we pick the shows we watch.  We have two shows that we watch regularly--'Survivor' and 'The Amazing Race'.  (Used to watch '24' also, but it got cheesy in a hurry.)  We TiVo both programs and watch them on our schedule--after the kids are in bed--and we fast forward through the commercials.  My life is much better, the kids are better-behaved, and I spend more time on the important things:  trolling the Grace-Centered Message Board!  Thank you, TiVo.[/color]

So was ENTP your alter-ego?

I didn't mean trolling in the bad way, ha.  I usually have to surf the web fully clothed.   :blush:

On behalf of everyone here....thank you. :)

does anyone here really believe ANY of the stuff they watch on tv??...other than the x-files?  they're probably for real :headscratch:

dj

David, now youv'e ruined it for me.  I thought it was all live using  hidden cameras.

In all fairness to "Everybody Loves Raymond", not only is Raymond depicted as pretty stupid, they balance out the show with his mother being put down constantly by his dad.
she can never do anything intelligent either.  So I guess they are appealing to both sexes.

But the mother (Marie) has the upperhand. She has the control. Raymond is the star of the show who is on there 90% of the time and he is the one who is presented as stupid, unable to do anything right and constantly being called, "idiot" by his disrespectful, selfish, just plain mean wife.

When American wives are exposed to this constantly it can't be good. I've even noticed a difference in the way my wife treats me after watching it. That may sound silly, but I've talked to other husbands about it as well and they experienced the same thing.

Men (especially white men) are the only gender/race where it is always open season. They are constantly insulted and made fun of and nobody cares. If it were the other way around and it was a black person or a female the media would go crazy and demand "justice." But not for men. It's politically correct to insult men.

Ah the good old days when there were no sitcoms where men were the ones put down like "the Honeymooners" "the Flinstones" "the Jetsons" [which both began as prime time animated sitcoms] "the Dick Van Dyke Show" And even on the Andy Griffith show the men were frequently the objects of humor with women playing the straight role [how about Barney and Thelma and even Andy and Aunt Bea or Helen on occasion] How . . . . Yeah, Nick at Night is a wasteland.

What makes these kind of situations funny is the irony of the shoe being on the other foot so to speak.  The supposed stronger vessel being not so strong.  Perhaps what we should worry about is when the sexes are so equal that this kind of thing isn't funny any more.

Seriously, don't we have enough issues to deal with without creating them?  Of course I cannot be the judge of current sitcoms because they conflict with ESPN, the History Channel, the Game Show Network, A&E, Fox Sports World, The Food Network, Discovery Wings, C Span, etc.  If all viewers were like me, the broadcast networks would be history.

Creating an issue?

Yeah right.

You look around. It is OK in this society to mock men and make fun of them. Why can't it just be that neither is mocked? Why don't the sexes just respect each other? It's not okay for men to be put down just because they are men.

Lee

feminazis do exist.  a pox on them all.  

'Men (especially white men) are the only gender/race where it is always open season. They are constantly insulted and made fun of and nobody cares. If it were the other way around and it was a black person or a female the media would go crazy and demand "justice." But not for men. It's politically correct to insult men. '


yep.  you got to stand up for yourself.  never hesitate to call an offender's hand.

dj

a. It's not just men. [ever heard of Jessica Simpson?]

b. If neither was mocked, it wouldn't be funny.  With only one exception that I can think of off hand, all humor has an object, someone that is the target.  That one exception is the pun.  Who would sit through 30 minutes of puns?

Shakespeare fans. :p

I just heard a perfect example on the radio. A McDonalds commercial where the big dumb man didn't know that McDonalds now takes credit cards.

When he said, "I didn't know McDonalds took credit cards," the wife's response was, "There's a lot of things you don't know."

Now, let's reverse this. If a man said that to a woman in a commercial, wouldn't it seem harsh? Wouldn't people be saying that he was saying women didn't know much?

There is an obvious double standard.

Lee

I guess that's why the Jessica Simpson commercials are so ineffective.

Jessica Simpson is seen as sexy when she is dumb.  Not so with the dumb men in the commercials.  
Ya wanna know what takes real courage?  What admin has done by bringing this topic up.  Thank you.   :clap:

Perry

Who is Jessica Simpson?

At first I thought you were talking about Bart's little sister, but surely no one would call her sexy!
:D

:rofl:

Jessica Simpson is thought of as an idiot because of her reality show.  Though I've never seen it, I have seen on shows like Access Hollywood, replays of her being stupid.  That is her fault that she is portrayed that way.  She chose to be on a show where they show how she really is.

Raymond is the writer of his show.  So, he writes in the stuff about him being dumb.  It's supposedly based on his life.  I don't like that show either, it is mean, and degrating to men and women, and trys to teach that it's okay to have a disrespectful family.

Lee,
I noticed the problem along time ago.  I really noticed it after I read Dobson's book about boys.  I hadn't noticed it with commercials though.  Only sitcoms and movies.  That bothers me that men are looked at that way and that my boys have to grow up in a country that is like that.  I don't want them to have trouble finding a wife who loves and respects men.  Just like they should women.

If it's true what someone said about females being the target audience, then why is almost every commercial staurated in sex, nudity (of some form), or something provocitive?  That of course being women being the nude ones and trying to appeal sexually to men.  That don't make me want to buy a product, if I see a women dancing a certain way in a club.  Old Spice commercial.

Sorry for the rant session.

As to Ray Romano -

Samuel Johnson once said that all self-mocking or criticism was a form of self-praise.  It's meant to show just how much dignity and respect you have to spare.   (He, of course,  said it more pithily than I,  but I can't remember the exact quote.)

And I know Marc,  you don't like Johnson.  But I do.

Jessica Simpson has crafted herself that way, similar to people like Monroe, Fawcett, etc.  It's an act that's making her millions.

The reason men are so often ridiculed is because, in most cases, they are mature enough to take it with grace and not be so whiney. Some of you act like this is the first time in history that women have been shrews, and that the TV is opening the floodgates on all this behavior.

Yeah, Debra is mean sometimes. And Ray is childish sometimes. That's how they're written. It's fiction based on reality.

No, Jessica Simpson is seen as sexy when she shows her cleavage. And by the way, her IQ is actually about as high as Lee's, and, as he will tell you, that's pretty high.

I think real courage is just doing your best at being a man and proving the commercials wrong.

They should make a commercial about whiney men who can't take being made fun of.

How about we spend some time talking about how the couples in most shows and commercials are an average-looking man and a gorgeous woman. Shall we see where that road leads us?[/color]

Everyone should watch commercials, sitcoms and movies and when a woman says something disrespectful, sarcastic, or just plain mean or insulting to a man, FLIP IT. See how it would sound if it was applied back the other way (the man saying it to a woman).

Our society has been conditioned to take great offense if a woman is insulted. Notice that in movies, etc. the male who does that is almost always the villain. Yet it has been conditioned to be OK with attacks on men.

And how many times in movies and on sitcoms do we see women just haul off and smack a male? Over and over? What if a man smacked a woman in the face like that? I've had girlfriends slap me. But if I slapped her back I swear I would have been in handcuffs. Right?

And women (and impressionable children) see it over and over. Men can be the target of insults and physical abuse and it's even considered humorous!

John Bobbett. Remember him? His wife used a knife to cut off his penis. Jay Leno still jokes about it. It was a circus! But what if a male took a knife and cut off a woman's breast? Or a part of her genetalia? You think there'd be jokes about that? If there were, the public outcry would be great.

Sure, there are women who feel sexy acting like airheads. But it is self humor. They make fun of themselves. And they do it because they feel sexy by appearing that way. People don't openly insult them. It's not the same thing.

I work for a marriage ministry, and one of the biggest problems we see is that many women are EXTREMELY disrepectful to their husbands (yes, men do awful things to, but this problem is increasing). They role their eyes (a sign of contempt) at their husbands for hobbies he enjoys. They openly mock him for things he's done. But if a guy did that he would be viewed as the bully.

It's just not right.

...the wife must respect her husband. Ephesians 5:33

Is that principle being followed in society?

Absolutely not.

:onrant:



[!--EDIT|admin|1113582486--]

That's called chivalry.

It's the mark of a gentleman and one of the glories of western civilization.

:amen: Bog. Thank you.

Why don't we save getting our panties in a wad for something important.

  :darthvader:

If you don't like TV, don't watch it.  If you don't like the commercials on the radio, do what I do--listen to NPR.

 :listeningtomusic:

I agree admin.  To take the spotlight off our teenagers for a moment (2hours of sunday morning is competing with the rest of the weak for our kids minds)  I wonder if our own "2 hour sunday morning" experience is not enough to break our hearts to witness people suffering the effects of unbridled and unleashed anger and frustration.  Where will our society learn what God's will is for our lives if we do not care enough to share what we know?

I know what you are talking about from personal experience.
Also, every sermon having to do with marital relations seems to focus on telling the husband how he can be better, more affectionate and respectful of his wife.  I never hear this mentioned to the wives.  And that is what Promise Keepers is all about.  Men getting together trying to figure out how they be more worshipping of their wives.  
Perry[/color]

I agree, bog, and I agree with Lee that the respect should flow both directions.

I don't watch any of it.  I stick to sporting events.  Then when the commercials come on I do something else.

Bingo! It's all part of the same politically correct extreme feminism that dominates the media -- that men are big, ugly idiots and women are brilliant, enlightened goddesses of desire.

If a black person was presented as stupid, would they be "whiney" if they complained about it? Or what about women? If women were presented as weak and stupid, would they be "whiney" if they complained?

Were the civil rights leaders of the 60s and 70s "whiney?" Is it "whiney" to point out when one gender/race is being mistreated?

Why is it that when white men complain about being mistreated they are "whiney" but when it is ANYONE ELSE they are doing some great civil service?!

Lee[/color]

Lee,

Go read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Lee,
You might be stepping on some toes here.  That could be why you're being called whinney.  I grew up in a house where my mom would speak to my father like he was a child, because she thought she was smarter.  He hates it when someone points it out to them, because he wants to be in denial.  

I did the same thing when I was first married.  It should never matter what I.Q. someone has, for you to show respect.  I see husbands doing the same thing to wives.  Sometimes, it seems like it is the more educated spouse that talks down to the other.  Although in my case, James I.Q. is much higher.  I just did in my marriage what I saw in others.

I had a teacher one time have my class of boys and girls, take a sponge and wring the water out of it.  He wanted to see who could get the most water out.  We of course thought it would be the biggest guy.  It wasn't it was me.  I couldn't figure out how that was possible.  The teacher asked me if I did chores like dishes.  I did.  He said in all the years he did that with kids, it was almost always the girls who would win, because they were the ones doing dishes.  A female teacher heard him say that and told me not to put up with that, because it was sexist.  I thought, what may be sexist is the fact that the girls were doing chores and the boys were not.  :)

Wow, I declare.  I never thought that a conversation like this would ever take place on this board.  
Talking about all of this exposes the feminists and in the long run will hopefully stop all of this misandry.  

I am so glad you brought this up admin.  And I'm surprised no one has called you a misogynist yet.  
Feminism has infiltrated the schools, the judicial system(family courts in particular), the entertainment industry, the Church, the military, etc.  God only knows where it will end.  

I'm no longer afraid of being called a woman hater.  When the family courts got done with me, I said enough is enough.

Perry

Annie,
my aunt had to do most of the housework when she was a little girl.  She had four brothers that did very little in the house.  Do you think that is sexist?  Of course, the four boys were out in the hot sun all day walking behind a mule plowing fields, bailing hay, loading watermelons, and digging wells.  She wasn't out there doing that.  Was that sexist as well?
Just curious as to what you think.

Perry

I don't think I can relate to this feminist thing in the marriage that some of y'all are complaining about, or even the husband being the "head boss" (complimentarian) thing because I have never experienced it.  My wife and I have been in an egalitarian marriage since day one (31 years) with mutual respect for each other and approaching everything equally.  Doesn't mean we haven't had some bumpy spots, just that we share a mutual respect for each other and approach our marriage differently from most in the CoC.  Maybe that explains some of my views on gender in the church  :doh:

However, as I said earlier I do see those type of attitudes put forth on a regular basis in commercials and sitcomes.  It's shamefull because there is little or no respect either way to either gender in these situations.  It's even worse when it hits a Christian marriage, and I have seen that happen with several friends, co-employees, and local church members.


Well, according to some on this forum, anyone who believes in and speaks up for an egalitarian view of "church" where we are all equals and we serve according to abilities as given by the Holy Spirit and not by the gender we are assigned by God, is probably "whinney", and certainly a liberal "realitivist feminist."  :shrug:[/color]

Perry,
I think if you want to raise your kids that way, that's fine.  What I was trying to say was girls doing chores and boys not, is sexist.  My brothers never had to do as much as I or my sister did.  They certainly were not out in the fields.  I have four brothers, three still live at home.  My parents have been hiring someone else to mow their, less than quarter of an acre, because they can't get my brothers to do it.  Two are grown-ups and one is a teenager.  I wasn't paid for anything I did, they were.  So, maybe you could see how I might think that's a little sexist.  My sister and I also had to babysit with no pay, for my real brothers and foster kids.  My brothers didn't.

I worked at a golf course in Alabama when I was in my late teens. There was a team of about 5 guys who did different things like pick the golf balls off the range (using a machine) and other things like keeping the carts recharged and doing different kinds of maintenance. We were outside all day lifting and getting sunburned. At the end of the day I was usually so exhausted that I simply went to bed.

The course hired a girl about our age (19 or so). A female had never been hired to do that job. The daughter of the head pro was friends with her and had arranged for her to be hired claiming that girls should have the same "opportunities" as boys.

I was off for her first day, but worked "with" her on her second day. We drove our cart down the driving range (she insisted on driving) and I took the first shift for clearing the driving range. The machine we used picked up all the balls into baskets and our job after that was to empty the baskets into a very large barrel of golf balls. Usually the other person would help with that part. She didn't. I finished, sat down in the cart exhausted and we went off to other duties. I quickly began to notice that the day had consisted of her driving the cart and "dropping me off" to do the work. I was beginning to get very irritated at this because all of the other guys worked as a team. Always.

But what really got me was that when it was her time to pick the range, she flat out refused. She said she couldn't lift the baskets or turn the wheel on the picking machine. "It's too hard," she said.

To say I was angry would be a GROSS understatement. I talked to other guys about it and they were upset too. "But what can we do about it? they said. "She's a girl, we'd look like bullies if we complained."

She was getting paid the same amount of $$ as the guys but not doing 1/5 of the work. I guarantee that if I would have complained that someone would have called me sexist or whatever. She eventually quit to work in the mall.

But ya know, that "equal work for equal pay" doesn't apply both ways.

Where I work now, the guys move the boxes. It doesn't matter what position you are, if you are male, you move the heavy boxes. The women will even ask (sometimes tell) the men to. Do we get paid more? No. And if we did, the company would probably get sued.

Is that fair? No. And for those of you who don't think I should be discussing it....this is a DISCUSSION board.

Lee

My parents were equal opportunity employers.  We all worked.  Allowance was based on age, and whether or not we'd done our chores.  There were 9 kids, so it was quite organized.  That many kids also meant all the housework could potentially be done in a 1/2 hour (notice I said potentially...we were typical kids :)).  

The real labor was on the ranch, where again, it was equal 'opportunity'...the opportunity to sweat and get tired.  Contrary to the way most kids think now, we fought over who got to do the ranch work just about every day.  I still miss it like nobody's business.

I don't guess there's any pear to burn or mesquite to fight in upstate New York,  is there?

Not hardly.  You know, I always wanted to burn prickly pear, but my grandfather never let me anywhere near is WW2 army surplus flame thrower.  I did get to ride on the plow, though (he put an old car hood on the plow for extra weight, that's where I rode...my how things have changed!).

This is an interesting discussion and reflective of our respective "baggage," isn't it?  

The other day a friend was telling me about another friend whose husband was ordering her around, never making a request but saying stuff like "Get my breakfast.  Iron my shirt, etc."  The wife in question is truly a "superwoman," works for a living, manages the house, the kids, etc.  

I remarked that I would not put up with being ordered around like that.  My friends mother said, "Oh, so you are the boss at your house, huh?"

That stopped me in my tracks for a minute.  But, I then replied that no, I am not, but my husband would not dream of issuing orders like that nor WOULD I.

We have disagreements, like anyone, but NEVER resort to "drill sargeant mode" with each other and never call each other names.  I cannot begin to tell you the number of times we have been told that our adult children have the best manners someone has ever seen.  And they seem to be conducting their marriages in a similar manner.

They watched sitcoms when growing up....but we used these as object lessons more times than I can count to express that what they saw on TV was NOT the way to live and they had no problem comprehending that.

I don't pretend we are the perfect family, but TV has just not been a big issue here.

    :rollingeyes:

I see TV mostly as a mirror of the popular culture, and of where some people want that culture to go, so what you're seeing may not jive with your family experience, but it's certainly out there.

That's how I do at my house.

Every morning I push my wife out of bed and tell her:

"Get out in that kitchen and rattle those pots and pans
Get out in that kitchen and rattle those pots and pans
Roll out my biscuits cause I'm a hungry man."

That's how to be the leader of your house.   Works like a charm.

Sounds like BOG is in for some COG  (Couched Old Guy) !

Kat,
I noticed when I go out with rude people, the waiters or people working where you are, will be rude right back.  I never complain in a rude way, but I rarely will complain if I think the one in charge needs to know what's going on.

One the other hand, when I am friendly to someone working somewhere, it almost always gets me better service.  I like to be nicer to waiters or waitresses, because I think they have a hard job, and because I should anyway.  

I noticed that when I go to the mall and shop at more expensive stores I get bad treatment alot of times.  I will be nice, then if they act snotty, I will be even nicer and it doesn't seem to help.  I can't figure out why.  I have noticed sometimes when someone else is snotty they seem to respect that and treat them better.  ???

Counter-intuitive, isn't it Annie?  But yes.  I saw a 'study' done with waitresses that showed that rude waitresses get bigger tips than nice waitresses.

I find it strangely amusing that whenever a male talks along these lines as has Admin done, there seems to be a knee jerk response to avoid the actual point under review and immediately start analyzing the person to see what is causing this "complex".  
And then there is the claim that we are whiney.  I am not whining.  I am simpling pointing out what is and has been happening for a long time.  I do this so that others that are asleep will awaken and be able to spot it immediately.

Perry

Granddads are funny that way.

Actually, to be fair, the point itself was discussed immediately. Did you see the posts on the first two pages about Everybody Loves Raymond, country music, the target audience of TV and commercials, Andy Griffith, sitcoms in general, old-time TV shows, etc. All of the posts that I saw on the first two pages at least were about the topic, not attacking Lee or accusing him of having a complex.

To return to the topic, Lee and Perry, you are in good company. Marilyn Vos Savant said something along these lines (about women being portrayed as smart and men portrayed as bumbling) in her Parade column this past Sunday. I tried to find it online to show you but they don't post it until seven days after the fact. But if you saved your Parade section from Sunday's newspaper it's in there.[/color]

Winky thank you for being open minded.  
If anyone is interested here is a link to some sociological stuff that has been done on where we are headed:
Upstream: The Garbage Generation (http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Library/Amneus/garbage/)

White men have run the world in every conceivable way for millenia.  So sad that with all that power, you can't take a little razzing on TV.

Quinn, do you really think it's limited to white men?

I've noticed a similar phenomenon at worship services.  Mother's Day rolls around and we hear how a godly womans price is far above rubies and that their husbands and children should keep that in mind.  

Father's Day comes by and men better striaghten up and do better.

Very true getting older.  We are scum?

I was responding to this comment:

[/color]

Ah, got ya.  Sorry I didn't catch that.

Nothing new, though.  During the Civil War, the men used the ideal of "Southern Womanhood" as one of their prime motivations for fighting.  Our culture's always elevated women to the point of sainthood, often by demonizing men a bit beyond what is necessary.

But in the end, men are the ones who do it.  Particularly southern men.  Take the whole genre of Redneck humor.  The purpose of the whole thing is to show how stupid and uncouth men are.  The culture has evolved to the point where men are often proud of their assumed stupidity, and a hint of intelligence or breeding is equated with a hint of femininity.  

So yes, this trend is real, but no, I don't blame women.  I think the lowest-common-denominator culture so many of us have bought into is to blame.[/color]

Should I state the obvious and point out that Lee's poor pitiful man stance is just delicious fodder for the position that yes, men are stupid and should be made fun of???? :confused:

As for his experience on the golf course I have a different story. Over the next few weeks as you go into various stores notice the ratio of male to female cashiers. If you find 10% male I'd be surprised. The worst job in retail is cashier and it is almost always the lowest paid (unless some one has put years in at the job). Most guys, like Lee's girl on the golf course, don't do well at it and quickly find some other work.

Of course, Lee could care less about something like that. At all costs we have to save the endangered white male!!

Um, Jim Abb, takes a lot of courage to attack like that. And yes, that is a veiled attack.
As far as the whole cashier thing goes, have you ever worked in a grocery store?  If not, then you are probably not familiar with the special treatment young females get from the managers.  The young boys are usually(much more so in times past than today) the ones sacking groceries and bringing them out to the car and stocking groceries while the young ladies are the ones working in the office or being the cashier.  I spent my high school time workingin a grocery store and I still see this attitude displayed at the stores here in town.
Ya want to attack me as being whiney I don't care.  I have courage because making a statement that might get me sneered at for making takes some back bone while standing with the crowd as you have done DOES NOT.

Perry

I think it is fascinating....just fascinating that a man on the 7th thread actually: (a) admitted that men are portrayed as ugly and stupid in today's society and the (b) said it was their own fault!

Talk about being conditioned! "There's a double standard and men are portrayed as idiots....and it's our own fault!"

Sounds like brainwashing to me. Men have been conditioned to think that EVERYTHING bad is somehow our fault.

In my state (Tennessee) it is perfectly legal for a woman to get an abortion without her husband (or boyfriend) having any knowledge or say. Yet for me to get a vasectomy, legally, I have to actually have my wife's signature on a "waver." I'm not joking, because I am actually going to get the procedure, but they are literally forbidden by law to do the procedure on me without my wife "okaying" it.

That's right....when it comes to killing a baby, in our culture, it's a "woman's right to choose what happens to 'her' body." But a man...heck...the woman is in charge according to the government!

With her body, it's her decision. With a man's body....it's STILL her decision.

If you can't see something wrong with that, you are truly brainwashed and need...help.

I'm so glad this thread got started. I'm going to go home and kick my pregnant wife in the mouth before she corrupts me any further.

Make her cook biscuits, too.   Tell her to

"Get out in that kitchen and rattle those pots and pans!"

What gives you the right, or even the idea that I'd care less? I'm married and love my wife, mother and mother-in-law very, very much. I want NOTHING but the best for them. Why is it that when I try to stand up for men by pointing out ways that society is currently mistreating them that you suggest I don't care about women? What a wild, illogical leap! But, sadly, even that shows how society has brainwashed and wired you. If someone ever accuses a man of having a bad attitude toward women, guilty or not, he is discredited. Nothing he said matters. You've only proven my point further.


I realize that this is a joke (though not funny), but as with the above, it makes a wild and severely off base leap. I have never advocated violence or hatred toward women. I love women (especially those who are close to me) and still open doors for any woman I happen to meet. However, my feelings toward women are irrelevant to this discussion. Yours is a typical leap for this feminist-supremist society. The conditioned line of thought is: "If he thinks that men are treated badly, he must hate women."

How silly![/color]

"Veiled attack" on Lee?? Nonsense, I thought it was a pretty obvious attack!  :headscratch:
 OK..some other points.

I have spent my entire working career in retail, over 30 years, so my opinion on the female cashier at least has LOTS of experiences to support it.

The two most popular sitcoms of the past 10 years were Friends and Sienfeld. The women characters on those shows were made fun of regularly (Elaine's thumb dance, Phoebe's 16 hours holding on the phone leap to mind for those familiar with the shows). So comedy based on stupid characters cuts both ways.

Now, the theory that all this male bashing on TV is affecting us seems pretty ridiculous and I will explain why.
I grew up in the early 60s watching shows like "Father Knows Best", "My Three Sons", "Ozzie and Harriet", "Leave it to Beaver" and "The Donna Reed Show". If TV is so powerful at shaping our culture why is that half of my generation embraced "sex, drugs and rock and roll" just a few years later? I guess we all just thought Eddie Haskell was the real hero?  :banghead:

And finally, I guess jumping in late on the discussion must have violated some sort of taboo...oh well, blame it on the Beav, since he obviously warped me.

So this generation will rebel against the social norm and show incredible levels of respect to each other?

It could happen. Who could have predicted in 1958 what kids would be doing in 1968? And in 1968 I would have laughed at the idea that disco would soon rule the airwaves and lounges!

If men are doing the portraying, then we have to take responsibility for our own actions.

And if we're the primary audience for the shows that do this, then we especially need to take responsibility.

I'm particularly tired of the "redneckization" of popular culture, which I see see as just another symptom of the same problem.  The problem's not feminism; the problem's intellectual laziness.  

And most of us are guilty.

If we turned in to entertainment that provided something deeper than a cheap laugh, we'd see real people portrayed, with a variety of faults and a variety of positive characteristics.[/color]

Does anybody here know a single person who isn't aware that you can't believe everything you see on TV, that you have to take it with a grain of salt, that it's mostly fiction, that the values it portrays are very often immoral and destructive, and that its sole purpose is to keep your attention long enough to get you to want to buy something?

Yet we all shop at Walmart, have wives who roll their eyes at our antics, vote for one of only two political parties, even though there are two dozen on the ballot all with an equal chance of election at 7AM on election day, and assume that everybody else in the whole country (except for our friends) are empty vessels waiting to be filled with glorious, immutable, infallible TVness and who will parrot it until the next refill.

TV. We don't believe it, but we seem to have nothing else to believe. Intellectual laziness. Marc, you hit the nail once again.

Shake, rattle and roll.

Something else to bear in mind about TV is the explosion of channels with the emergence of cable. As I understand it, the viewership of the old major networks is declining year after year. Of course the commercials are still everywhere, but I have to wonder about the general knowledge of shows and the extent of their, to me at least, already doubtful influence.

Here's a typical example:

A friend of mine here at work is getting a vasectomy this morning. For those of you who have had one (and those of you, like me, who will be getting one soon --next month) the surgery leaves men in a great deal of pain. The recovery time is 5-7 days for being able to walk around normally and a month or more for a few...other things. The first 3 days after the surgery are to be spent in bed.

This morning at our meeting the female employees were making jokes about it. Laughing about it and even mocking him to some degree. During our morning prayer, when it was mentioned, one of them even snickered.

However, a female employee had the equivalent (an outpatient setting, she was at work the next day but went home because she felt bad) and she got nothing but sympathy. No jokes or laughing, but solemn, concern.

How insensitive for those people to be laughing about the procedure my friend went through this morning. It's just like with John Bobbitt. Remember all the jokes? What if a man had cut off part of a woman's private parts? Would the jokes have come then? No way. The person making them would be called insensitive and probably run off the TV or away from their friends.

There is a double standard.

The relationship experts tend to think so as well. I looked at the "Smart Marriages" conference catalog today--it's a conference of marriage experts from around the country. Joe Beam will be on it this year and many people from various marriage-enrichment organizations will be there. Probably close to 100 presenters. Anyway, I was looking at a lot of the seminars that were advertised in the catalog and was taken back at the ones that said, "male friendly" or "no male bashing."

They know.

Good point.

I forget if I mentioned this before, not that it matters.  I try to help with dishes and laundry because my wife works outside the home as well. (nurse)  I know guys whose wives work outside the home and they still DO NOT HELP around the house (woman's work) I mentioned that I believe the bible teaches me that helping with the domestic duties is expected.  (Although I can't for the life of me think of a "thou shalt help around the house" passage - but I do find respect, love, fairness, etc passages)  Thus, if I expect clean clothes that I helped dirty... I should help clean them.  If I want clean dishes to eat on... I need to help my family eat on clean dishes.  Therefore, I ask you all (at least in general terms)  Is this desire to help my wife a christian, spiritual desire OR is it simply a "equality" ~ worldly viewpoint.  And thus, christian men who refuse to help their wives (or moms or sisters or aunts...) around the house with "traditional" housework sinning?

It is always inappropriate to make light of someone else's difficulties.  I'm sure that was especially frustrating for you since, as you said, you are going to have the same procedure soon.  Has anyone pointed out to those folks that they are being inappropriate and unkind?

How come when a man does housework, it's "helping" and when a woman does it, it's her duty?

It's like using the word "babysitting" for watching your own children.  Inexcusable.

I have no idea who defined our language.  Was it Ozzie or was it Harriet?  Older television shows may or may not reflect cultural norms but I do not believe that males have always defined the roles.  Who says I am the one to fix the car?

Gender duties and "helping" is not the issue here. However, I "help out" with inside chores quite a bit in addition to doing all the yard work myself (mowing, weeding, seeding, de-weeding, etc) and my wife is a homemaker. I also watch the kids on Thursday nights so that she can get together with some of her female friends.

But again, that doesn't have anything to do with society declaring open season on men and treating them like jokes.



[!--EDIT|admin|1114797331--]

What doctor's telling you all of this?

I underwent that procedure a long time ago,  after our
second child was born.   The doctor had told us my wife shouldn't bear any more children,  and since she had undergone two big surgeries in about 3 years' time,  I didn't want her to have another.

I had it on a Friday afternoon,  drove myself home,  slept late on Saturday morning and then went about my normal business.   I was at Church on Sunday and at work Monday morning.    The stitches came out in a week.  As soon as they were gone,   the fun part of life resumed.

And I didn't tell anybody but my wife I was doing it.

A relative of mine and his wife decided they would stop at three children.  The doctor delayed the vasectomy a couple of weeks because he didn't see the need to rush since he'd just had another surgery.

The fourth child was born roughly 8 1/2 months after the vasectomy. :D

I had the procedure after our first was 9.5 lbs, the second was 11.5 lbs. and our rough calculations determined a third would be 16-20.  

Unless medicine has radically devolved in the last 20 years [yes, it has been that long] BOG's description is much more realistic than admin's.  I had no significant pain. I do not remember post-surgery painkillers -- I am sure the doc prescribed them, but I don't think I took them.  I also remember walking out of the doc's office where it was done and don't recall any abnormal bed rest, although I am pretty sure I did not go back to work the same day.

Amanda

Thanks,  but it was really no big deal.

Lee,

Maybe the women think it's funny because guys give each other such a hard time about stuff like this.  I know the guys I hang around do.

Yes, the guy should be applauded for stepping up and having the procedure, as it is generally much easier for the man than for women.

I'm surprised you're considering such a procedure--didn't you say you just turned 25?  Not that it's any of my business...

My husband stepped up to the plate after I was 7 months along with our 3rd child in 3 years, his idea too, I would have had 6 if he wasn't so insistant. I thank him for that insight to this day.

He went into the hospital and had a procedure that insured that he would not be able to have another child, unlike some that can be reversed, his would be unable to do so. That meant he spent one night in the hospital. He had it done on a Friday and was back to work on Monday.

Memmy  :D

I had the procedure after the twins were born.  Ever read the statistics on multiple birth percentages after the first multiple birth?  VERY discouraging!!!!

Was it painfull?  Well, the physician did mine on a Friday morning, did not get me completely anestisized, and he was extremely "rough" on me.  As a result, I was in extreme pain for several days and had pain for about two weeks.  I was able to return to work after about 5 days in a chair with plenty of ice!

Would I do it again?  Yes, even if it meant I would have to suffer the pain again.  The option at that time 25 years ago was invasive surgery on my wife with a higher risk factor than my surgery and that just was not an option for me.

My how people keep changing the subject. The point was that women made fun of the fact that he was having surgery. If a man had been making fun of a woman having surgery on her privates he would be considered insensative and a "woman hater."

None of my points were addressed.

First, my V operation experience was easy, as Dennis and BOG said. Wiley, sorry to hear your's didn't go so well. But when it comes to doctors you have to remember the old joke:
What do you call the med student that finishes at the bottom of the class?...Doctor!

Second. To address Admin.'s point.
Many men joke about the big V in mixed company. Usually a grimace and some sort of joke about shooting blanks. Women don't joke about their hys. in mixed company (although my wife assures that they do amongst themselves). So, since men feel free to joke about it in mixed company women feel free to joke also. And since men don't hear women joking about their operation in mixed company they won't joke either.

Sorry, Admin, but not everything is part of some vast liberal agenda.

Actually, Connie did address your points.

There is an even larger problem here than male-bashing, but perhaps you are too focused on that to see it.  As Connie said, it is always inappropriate to make light of someone else's difficulties.  These christian women were not loving their brother.  Jesus said that the way the world would know we are His disciples is by our love for each other.  The one distinguishing characteristic that Jesus said the world would look for was missing.  It wouldn't matter if it was a hangnail the man was worried about, he was in need of care and concern, which was withheld.

The issue is not women belittling men.  The issue is christians loving one another as Jesus loved us.[/color]

I'm rolling around on the floor laughing so hard. WHY?  Because I am so glad this topic has finally arrived here at GCM.  Ya see, the way the matriarchy will fall is just by making people aware.  
The times they are a-changing.  Forty to fifty years ago it was assumed that women were more virtuous and spiritual than men.  Sugar and spice and all that.  But todays generation is seeing things a lot differently.  Every day a news story comes out about a grown woman killing her kids or faking an abduction or stabbing her husband to death or sleeping with a 14 year old boy.  Time after time it is always rationalized away. She was an abused woman or she had post traumatic this that or the other.More like she has daddy issues.  LOL  
F Lagard Smith was wrong when he said that women were more spiritual than men.  And todays generation is figuring it out.  
Feminist claim they are all for equality but none of them ever pushes to get equal custody laws passed.  Those days are coming to an end.    :clap:

Lee, Sorry from me if I am not seeming sensitive to what your point is.

I was trying to help you have hope that maybe it won't be as tough to go through this procedure as you are anticipating.

I am happy to see that men indeed have a sensitive side to them as well. (emotionally speaking)

We are all in this together (world) and I hope and pray we all can have a greater understanding of each other through open dialogue.

Memmy  :)

I'm sorry, but I did address your point.    

My point is that this procedure is more akin to dentistry than it is like having your belly ripped open and a major organ yanked out of place (which is what women go through.)

Lee,  men should be strong,  stoic and quiet.

Perry,

Amen. If we were talking about any other group (race, gender) being mistreated because of their race or gender, everyone would feel their pain. But we talk about white men being mistreated and we're called women haters. What is that?!

I mean, a movie was actually made mocking us called, "White Men Can't Jump." And the movie degraded white men as second class basketball players.

Magic Johnson made the statement on national television that he was offended and felt disrespected if an opposing team sent a "white dude" to guard him. Yet in an attempt to be "open minded" it's trendy to say, "Well, white men can't jump that high, so I guess it's okay to ..." insult them.

I'm a white dude who can slam dunk a basketball and I'm only 5' 11!!! So that movie wasn't based on fact, but on a racist stereotype! But no one cares...

But I promise, if they made a movie called, "Black Men Can't Play Tennis," Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson would lead a public outcry! That director would be washed up.

As Nevertheless and Connie said, "it is always inappropriate to make light of someone else's difficulties." And it's not right to insult them for their gender or race, right?

It's not.....unless it's white men (apparently). But as Perry said, many are beginning to see what's been going on.

I saw Laura Bush on the Jay Leno show and the show actually got serious for about ten or fifteen minutes as she talked about what a tough time boys (black and white) have today. "We don't nurture them like we do girls," she said, "We've thought they could take care of themselves." She pointed out that 56 percent of college grads are female. That means that only 44 percent are male. She pointed out that nearly 100 percent of gang activity is male because the gangs nurture them in a way. She listed other disturbing situations that were, percentage wise, slated far toward boys. with little concern from society.

She has recognized that, in many ways, our society is obsessed with helping women yet has made it politically correct to slam men and even to hold them back. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helping women--I'm for helping anyone. But honestly, if only 44 percent of college grads were women, can't you hear the feminist groups complaining, protesting and demanding more $$ to "fix it."

Yet am I the only outcry for men?

Something tells me that someone on this board will make an excuse for only 44 percent of grads being male. In fact, I bet somehow it will be presented as our fault. Though when any other race/gender has a shortcoming, it's everyone else's fault! Truly, society has brainwashed us.

As Connie said, we shouldn't see it as a certain gender deserves xyz. We should see it as a person, made in the image of God should be treated equally, respectfully and appropriately.

Lee

WHATEVER! My point was NEVER that women should be the ones to have the surgery--I DON'T BELIEVE THAT!!!!! My point was not even that the surgery was more painful than the female version--I DON'T BELIEVE THAT EITHER!!!!!!!!!!

My point was that a man having surgery on his privates was joked about by women and even snickered about by a woman during a mention of the guy during our company prayer. But when a woman (also one of the ones who laughed about his) had an outpatient procedure (not a hysterectomy) that allowed her to return to work the next day....when she had that she got nothing but sensitivity and empathy from the men and the women.

The people who replied to my post were the ones comparing the pain of the genders during the birth-control procedures. My point was that it was shamefully socially acceptable for the females to mock and joke about the man having surgery on his privates but wouldn't be socially acceptable if a man joked about a woman having it done.

It should not be acceptable for EITHER to make fun of the other.

Lee[/color]

I dunno, Lee.  I believe the women think we have it coming:

When men start having periods every month, with all of the cramping, bloating and mood swings;

when women start getting satisfaction out of every sex act;

when men start getting pregnant with all of the complications, weight gain, stretch marks, and uncomfortableness;

and when men start delivering the babies with the contractions, episiotomy, etc., etc.

THEN women will give us the same amount of respect and concern when it comes time for the man to have his little procedure.

 :raining:

The only reason this happens is because their worthless,  sorry, no-account, trashy dads run out on them instead of sticking around and turning them into men.      Women aren't to blame for this and society isn't to blame for this.    Alleged "men" are to blame for this.      They need a swift kick in the pants.    

I get fed up when I hear these "men's rights" outfits and these "father equality" bunches.     Genuine men don't squawk about their rights -   they think about their duties.    Those fellows should have stayed with their wives and kids.

A sense of duty on a large scale in the US died somewhere around +-1965.  Since then, it's been all about a sense of self.

My parents celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary yesterday.  I am awed by and grateful for their fidelity and dedication.  It's very easy for me to be critical of choices they have made, sitting here on the sidelines and looking back.  But there is one thing that I will always respecct my dad for.  When they married, Dad was not quite 23 and Mom had 4 kids under 8 years old.  Dad took on that responsibility and always did his best to provide for them, the other 2 of us that came along later, and various "strays" that came to live with us from time to time.  He doesn't think he did as good a job as he should have, but who does?  He did the best he could.

Because of the example of this godly, dedicated man's life, I have no respect at all for so-called men who father children and then abandon them and their mothers.

I'm sorry, Lee, but when I read your comments over on the Politics board and then come over here and read how you think that men like you are deserving of compassion and empathy, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

So when I experience something painful and/or unpleasant it is acceptable for me to wish it on someone else? Is that what you are saying?


Charlie, I believe that we should give everyone compassion and empathy regardless of race or gender. That doesn't mean that I believe that criminals should go unpunished. It also does not mean that certain races or genders should receive preferential treatment. Or in the case of this discussion, a certain race and gender be treated badly just BECAUSE of that fact. If I was defending any other race or gender and saying that they should not be treated badly because of their race and gender, everyone would agree. This thread has only proven my original contention.

I'm amazed again that this thread has gotten of topic. It went from how men are portrayed in media to comparing the birth-control procedures for men and women, saying that men are scum because the woman's procedure is more difficult. What an interesting response and further proof at what society has brainwashed people to feel and think.

I believe that the surgery to prevent women from becoming pregnant again is more painful and traumatic than the procedure for men. That doesn't give anyone the right to mock the pain a man experiences when he goes through it. In the case I mentioned, my friend got the surgery so his wife wouldn't have to. All I requested was prayer on his behalf the day that it happened. The women joked about it and a couple of them snickered during the prayer. The simple question is; Would it have been acceptable for a man to laugh and snicker if a woman were having surgery? If not, why is there a double standard? Was it or was it not insensitive for those women to behave as they did?

No one was comparing procedures or claiming that one was any worse than the other. Quite simply, I requested prayers for a brother in Christ who was going to go under the knife and they thought it was humorous.

Post after post here has defended it and that's sad.[/color]

Actually, Lee, you are the only one who has used the phrase "men are scum", and no one posting here has even implied it.

Lee,

I don't know you, but I have read this thread, and what you are accusing people of is not correct.  You began this whole thing by stating that men have been treated unfairly by the media lately (you even called this "feministic", I presume because you think that word has negative connotations.)  You seemed to become irritated when posters pointed out that, while respect for others is very important, you might need to have a better sense of humor about this.  After all, in the history of the world, many people have not just been made fun of in public, but some have even been physically and mentally abused and injured (or killed!) because of certain categories they belong to.  Posters pointed out that what is currently happening to men is no worse, and in many cases, not nearly as bad, as what has occurred to other groups.

When you turned the topic to something specific and personal, you got the same kinds of responses, and seemed irritated again.  Several people reiterated that no one's pain should be treated lightly, and that everyone should be respected, but suggested that you should lighten up, because the things you are so upset about are things that everyone has to deal with in this life, and in fact many have to deal with much worse.

You seem to be determined to be offended and irritated, and I suspect that nothing anyone says will dissuade you from that.  That's too bad, because you are the one that it's going to affect negatively.

As usual, I get only a few moments to follow up an interesting thread before going to work, so of course I haven't read it all yet.  Hope to tonight.  Y'all may have gone on to some totally unrelated tangent by now...

But, there was this comment that came to mind re: Lee's bit on page 5:


Because -- even in today's climate of political correctness, even in the 21st century, even in the supposedly enlightened West, men, mostly Caucasian men, still hold the reins.

That's why such a large percentage of "humor" is directed against men.

It's funny because of contrasts.  The supposed "strong" one, the one with the most automatic, unthinking, under-the-radar support already in place in the society around him, is the one who can stand the most hits.

Everyone can think of exceptions, of course, because we are far from a monolithic society these days.  All sorts of currents and eddies and riptides and backwashes in society now.  That is fixing the men-always-take-it-in-the-neck problem -- by making sure everyone gets a turn eventually.

Sure, it would be better if everyone and everything, every commercial and TV show and book and newscast, all melted into a sweet Jell-O rainbow of Christlike lovingkindness, but it ain't gonna happen.

Meanwhile, vote with your remote and teach your kids critical thinking skills.[/color]

You know, a thought occurs to me this morning, and someone else may have already said this, but I don't have time this morning to go back through all 12 pages.  

Everybody Loves Raymond was brought up earlier.  For one, it's pretty much "equal opportunity" in its criticism of the sexes.  But what occurs to me this morning is this.  My wife and I have always been really bothered by how mean the Debra character is.  She must use the term "idiot" about her husband 20 times per show.  HOWEVER, the whole show is based upon the comedy act and perspectives of Ray Romano.  The guy's made a fortune off of being called "idiot" (something I think that was mentioned before).  SO, who thinks wives are mean?  Who decided to portray the marriage relationship in such a way?  He did.

Does that mean he created the problem?  No, he's exploiting it.  But how can men, or women, or minorities, too, ever change the way they are treated and perceived if they constantly feed those misconceptions and bad stereotypes for a quick laugh/buck?

Quinn, very wise post.

JMG, good thoughts. It puts it in a different light.

seekr

Most of the show - at least in the early years, and I believe throughout much of the series - is based on Ray's and producer Phil Rosenthal's real-life experiences (much like much of the first half of Seinfeld was based a lot on writer Larry David's real life situations).  One episode involves a certain monthly occurrence, and there are scenes in the episode that are, according to Rosenthal, nearly verbatim from his own experience (with his wife Monica Horan, who plays Robert's wife Amy on the show).

So, yeah, the writer's made the show the way it is, and they apparently took it from their own lives.  However, I'm sure it's probably exaggerated some to get more laughs.

Yup, I gotta say I'm with the majority on this one:  Lee, lighten up.  Life ain't fair, get over it, and laugh a little while you can.
 :)