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Imabear
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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2008, 08:26:57 AM »

This reminds me of a time we had a trauma patient come into the ER. 
Her story was that she had accidentally stabbed herself with a long kitchen knife while doing the dishes.
The medics said their was blood all over the kitchen.  I didn't believe her story.

If they ban knives, what's next?  Baseball bats, shovels?  I'll have to think back on all the fatal traumas we had and try to remember the weapon involved.  The problem is the typical house is filled with things that can be used as weapons. 
Guns can be used at a greater distance and can be more deadly.


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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2008, 08:29:19 AM »

Last week I got a call from the NRA. Before the Charlton Heston clone could start his spiel about the importance of gun ownership I told him, "The NRA doesn't want to be calling me." I told him if I had my way there would be no private ownership of hand guns. He asked what I would do if someone broke into my house and I told him I would call the police. "You mean if you had a gun you wouldn't use it to protect yourself?" he asked. I told him I might shoot the intruder in the kneecap but that if I shot and killed him I would be guilty of murder. "I have a son fighting in Iraq and I don't want to think he can't come home and protect himself" he went on. I don't see the connection and I told him I don't think Christians should serve in the military anyway.

The second amendment addresses the issue of state militias, not private ownership of guns. Militias were important to the people when the Constitution was written but law enforcement and the threat from foreign nations has changed in the last 200 years.

Christians get too attached to this life and some are willing to go against the word of God to preserve it. Paul said to die is gain. It is better to be killed and go heaven than to committ murder just so we can spend a few more years on this earth. Did Jesus pull out an Uzi when the soldiers came for him? Did he tell Peter "Cut a few more ears off so I get away?"

Should Christians own guns? If you are a hunter and eat what you kill or if you are a farmer and need a rifle to kill foxes getting into the chicken coop get a gun. If you are a private citizen and want a hand gun to protect yourself, get deadlocks for your doors, keep the number for the police station handy and live so that if today is your last day on earth you can meet your maker with a clean conscious. But don't buy a gun.
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2008, 08:29:19 AM »

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jb728b
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2008, 08:35:23 AM »

Should Christians own guns?

Only if they want to.

Some have argued that prayer should be our shield and allow God to protect us, with this I agree but, How does God protect you.

Hypothetical:

How many of you would pray for God's protection and safety then deliberately step out into oncoming traffic, jump off a 10 story building or jump head first into a barrel of broken glass and expect God to protect and save you?

God's protection, although supernatural in origin, is not always supernatural in method.

Also this idea of letting others sin so I can be safe is garbage.  If it were a sin for a Christian to carry a gun it is a sin for EVERYONE and that includes police, military and whoever.
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2008, 08:35:23 AM »

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James.
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2008, 08:54:38 AM »

Interesting passage that may give insight...

"If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account."  Exodus 22:2

Nehemiah also called the people working on the wall to self-defense (Nehemiah 4)...

"15 When our enemies heard that it was known to us and that God had frustrated their plan, we all returned to the wall, each to his work. 16 From that day on, half of my servants worked on construction, and half held the spears, shields, bows, and coats of mail. And the leaders stood behind the whole house of Judah, 17 who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. 18 And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me. 19 And I said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “The work is great and widely spread, and we are separated on the wall, far from one another. 20 In the place where you hear the sound of the trumpet, rally to us there. Our God will fight for us.”

21 So we labored at the work, and half of them held the spears from the break of dawn until the stars came out. 22 I also said to the people at that time, “Let every man and his servant pass the night within Jerusalem, that they may be a guard for us by night and may labor by day.” 23 So neither I nor my brothers nor my servants nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us took off our clothes; each kept his weapon at his right hand."
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2008, 09:16:37 AM »

I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Gary,

You talkin' my ex home, Montana?  Or New Mexico, the 5th largest state in the union?

I agree with you absolutely.

Robert

Montana.

I grew up and was raised in Whitefish, between Whitefish and Kalispell. 10 miles from each on Stillwater Dr, along the Stillwater River.  Winter ranged down near St. Ignatius. Summer ranged over on the Sweet Grass and Red Lodge as well as on the Blackfoot.

I forgot our discussion on this and why I had a sordid memory of the place. But the essence, I cannot deny it, remains within me, still. My adoption of New Mexico about 20 years for a U.S. origin haunt when I am back in country has had the same effect in attachment with no sordid memories.

Did you or do you hunt? 

If so did you go after Whitetail or Elk?

Folks haven't an idea about the American-Rocky Mountain west, understandably.

Robert

I have some property with some views of the Crazy Mt's, the Beartooths, and the Pryors.  I have only seen mule deer on my property.  Although I hear from time to time the elk are out my way,  as well as the mountain lion.  When I was younger, I spent time near Thompson Falls, and Drummond.
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2008, 09:19:31 AM »

I am very pleased that in the uk owning a gum is not allowed unless you have a special licence for maybe a farmer or whatever. The more guns that are around and available the more people get shot. Thankfully most police officers here still dont carry guns either except special forces who are called out if there is an incident involving a firearm, which is still rare.
Of course there are some illegal guns but the general population just dont have them or want them., and long may it stay this way.
I have never understood the American things for guns, why do you need or want them, they only result in more violence and more deaths and injuries? I also hate hunting so dont see the need for guns for this so called 'sport' either.
I will now duck before the flack comes my way !

Guns are intertwined with our very culture here.  They helped gain our independence, new territory, etc.  Guns are mentioned in the our Constitution.  In fact, the state I live in has a provision to secede from the United States if the second amendment was changed.  Perhaps, there is no way you could understand.  The state I live in is larger than the UK in area, with less than a million people.  Many parts of it are still very much wild.

Guns are very much part of your culture but does that mean that it is a good thing? Culture can change and very often should. surely.
We are always hearing about colleges and schools there where someone has murdered loads of kids and shot themselves. if they didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened . Shootings there are rife, and that is terrible and wrong. If there were no guns that wouldnt happen either. of course we have crime here but mainly with knives, While knives are terrible and often kill, guns are far more lethal becuase so many can be killed in one go wheras a knife cant. Also we all have to have knives for cooking etc so it would be impossible to ban them.

You still don't understand our culture at all.  Here, if more law abiding folks have guns, there is less crime.  If respect is taught for guns, things are fine.  My dad's .30-06 rifle was always just setting inside their closet.  His ammunition was in the sock drawer.  I knew not to touch it.  I went out with my dad to shoot at some deer at a very young age.  When I was 5 or 6 I had a pellet gun.



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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2008, 09:19:31 AM »

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Corbley
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2008, 09:51:00 AM »

God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  Confused??
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James.
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2008, 10:14:15 AM »

God said, "Thou shalt not murder."  There is a difference, or he would not have commanded capital punishment in the LoM.
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2008, 10:16:41 AM »

God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  Confused??

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.
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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2008, 12:56:19 PM »

God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  Confused??

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.

The OT "Thou shalt not kill" is sometimes translated "Do not murder" and then a discussion ensues about the meaning of "murder.'

People like to use OT scripture to support warfare, executions and packing heat. We are not Jews and we are not under OT law. In OT times it was the nation of Israel against every one else. God spoke to the prophets who passed on his commands. Now we are to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. All nations can come to Christ. God doesn't deliver a message to a prophet to go kill all the Canadians or all the North Koreans. We are to turn the other cheek, pray for those who abuse us and look forward to the time we will be in heaven. There is no place in all of this for shooting people who transgress earthly law. We do as we have been taught in scripture and the bad guys will get what's coming to them in judgment.

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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2008, 12:56:19 PM »

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sopranette
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2008, 12:59:39 PM »

Okay....here's the plan.  You distract him and read to him from John 3:16, I'll go get the 12 guage.

love,

Sopranette
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James.
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2008, 01:33:47 PM »

Rolling on floor laughing
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2008, 01:39:15 PM »

As to the OT in consideration of principles, consider the following passages of the NT, referring to the writings of the OT:

Quote
1 Cor 10:6-12
6   Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
7   Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
8   We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did-- and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
9   We should not test the Lord, as some of them did-- and were killed by snakes.
10   And do not grumble, as some of them did-- and were killed by the destroying angel.
11   These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
12   So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(NIV)

Quote
2 Tim 3:14-17
14   But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
15   and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16   All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17   so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(NIV)

In both cases the principle is addressed that the OT scriptures are there for our learning, and our learning how to live a faithful life as Christians.  The pre-Pentecost Scriptures were not thrown out with the bath water of the old covenant.  They still teach a great deal about the character of God and the character of His people.
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
– Walter Lock
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2008, 01:39:15 PM »

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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2008, 02:13:18 PM »

God says "Thou shalt not kill"
But when it comes to defense  Confused??

Don't read the OT about what the Israelites did.

The OT "Thou shalt not kill" is sometimes translated "Do not murder" and then a discussion ensues about the meaning of "murder.'

People like to use OT scripture to support warfare, executions and packing heat. We are not Jews and we are not under OT law. In OT times it was the nation of Israel against every one else. God spoke to the prophets who passed on his commands. Now we are to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. All nations can come to Christ. God doesn't deliver a message to a prophet to go kill all the Canadians or all the North Koreans. We are to turn the other cheek, pray for those who abuse us and look forward to the time we will be in heaven. There is no place in all of this for shooting people who transgress earthly law. We do as we have been taught in scripture and the bad guys will get what's coming to them in judgment.
We are under the New Law,.....But that does not dismiss the Old Law....It is there for a reason.
The New Law is applied yes, but the new Laws do not break any of the Old Laws
For example:  The Old Law says "An Eye for an eye"  The New law says turn the other Cheek"
By turning the other cheek we have not broken the Old Law...Only added an amendment..

The Old Law still Applies
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2008, 02:58:02 PM »

To Gary and Corbley,

It is so much lost now in the ides of new ageism and a roman indulgence type of begin upon the plain in that folks simply do not understand the real deal, in 80% of the planet.

I see it in all my travels, and the world is very very empty place, contrary to the nonsense demon like mantra of CNN and other media about resources, overcrowding, earth warming, etc etc etc. It is gibberish and it is wrong.

I travel to the far sides of the world. The Earth is adroit at producing banditos, great evil roaming the ethers of our lands and world. I have survived by the law of Jeremiah and Isaiah, and lived to see another day. There is wonder out on the wasteland. And there is great travail.

I have resorted to having to defend my life to the death and have threatened same, and will do so as it is required.

I also often times shoot for my food in places where I have none.  I bled out, butcher, and cook on fire, my food and eat with relish what the Lord provides me.

I am thankful that both of you men understand this and live by the gun, love by the cross.

Hail to you both, fellow warriors upon the plain.

Robert






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