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Author Topic: Where will I find God's true Church to day ?  (Read 471 times)
jiggyfly
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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 10:37:05 AM »
Like I said it is a translation error.
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 10:38:50 AM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: jiggyfly on November 03, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 09:58:17 AM
God never started a 'church'... so you will never find it.

The greek word used to describe groups of followers was 'ekklesia'.. which is a term that has very little to do with what we call a 'church' today.  Church is more a pagan term with pagan origins then it has to do with followers of Christ.


I agree , the english word "church" is a mistranslation. It comes from an entirely different greek word than "ekklesia".

Church comes from the Greek word kuriakos, that means "house of the Lord" or from the German word kirche.

However when we use the word church as in the “true church” we do not mean the building but the people, the ekklesia. Therefore in that sense Church is the right word.

It is the word Jesus used when he said to Peter
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (ekklesia) (Mt 16:18)

And it is the same word (ekklesia) that Paul uses for the gatherings of people to worship.

To talk therefore of the Catholic Church is to speak of what Christ founded, whether it is a small local gathering or all those in unity with the Pope, as the earthly head of Christ’s Church.


The earthly head of the Church is Jesus Christ, who is still alive.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 10:38:50 AM »
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Tantor
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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2009, 10:39:33 AM »
Quote from: Gary on November 03, 2009, 10:38:50 AM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: jiggyfly on November 03, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 09:58:17 AM
God never started a 'church'... so you will never find it.

The greek word used to describe groups of followers was 'ekklesia'.. which is a term that has very little to do with what we call a 'church' today.  Church is more a pagan term with pagan origins then it has to do with followers of Christ.


I agree , the english word "church" is a mistranslation. It comes from an entirely different greek word than "ekklesia".

Church comes from the Greek word kuriakos, that means "house of the Lord" or from the German word kirche.

However when we use the word church as in the “true church” we do not mean the building but the people, the ekklesia. Therefore in that sense Church is the right word.

It is the word Jesus used when he said to Peter
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (ekklesia) (Mt 16:18)

And it is the same word (ekklesia) that Paul uses for the gatherings of people to worship.

To talk therefore of the Catholic Church is to speak of what Christ founded, whether it is a small local gathering or all those in unity with the Pope, as the earthly head of Christ’s Church.


The earthly head of the Church is Jesus Christ, who is still alive.

Amen!
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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2009, 10:39:33 AM »
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jiggyfly
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 10:44:34 AM »
Quote from: Gary on November 03, 2009, 10:38:50 AM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: jiggyfly on November 03, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 09:58:17 AM
God never started a 'church'... so you will never find it.

The greek word used to describe groups of followers was 'ekklesia'.. which is a term that has very little to do with what we call a 'church' today.  Church is more a pagan term with pagan origins then it has to do with followers of Christ.


I agree , the english word "church" is a mistranslation. It comes from an entirely different greek word than "ekklesia".

Church comes from the Greek word kuriakos, that means "house of the Lord" or from the German word kirche.

However when we use the word church as in the “true church” we do not mean the building but the people, the ekklesia. Therefore in that sense Church is the right word.

It is the word Jesus used when he said to Peter
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (ekklesia) (Mt 16:18)

And it is the same word (ekklesia) that Paul uses for the gatherings of people to worship.

To talk therefore of the Catholic Church is to speak of what Christ founded, whether it is a small local gathering or all those in unity with the Pope, as the earthly head of Christ’s Church.


The earthly head of the Church is Jesus Christ, who is still alive.

You mean it's not "pope whatever number their on"?
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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 10:51:08 AM »
Quote from: jiggyfly on November 03, 2009, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: Gary on November 03, 2009, 10:38:50 AM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: jiggyfly on November 03, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 09:58:17 AM
God never started a 'church'... so you will never find it.

The greek word used to describe groups of followers was 'ekklesia'.. which is a term that has very little to do with what we call a 'church' today.  Church is more a pagan term with pagan origins then it has to do with followers of Christ.


I agree , the english word "church" is a mistranslation. It comes from an entirely different greek word than "ekklesia".

Church comes from the Greek word kuriakos, that means "house of the Lord" or from the German word kirche.

However when we use the word church as in the “true church” we do not mean the building but the people, the ekklesia. Therefore in that sense Church is the right word.

It is the word Jesus used when he said to Peter
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (ekklesia) (Mt 16:18)

And it is the same word (ekklesia) that Paul uses for the gatherings of people to worship.

To talk therefore of the Catholic Church is to speak of what Christ founded, whether it is a small local gathering or all those in unity with the Pope, as the earthly head of Christ’s Church.


The earthly head of the Church is Jesus Christ, who is still alive.

You mean it's not "pope whatever number their on"?

If a representative of Christ on earth is a pope, you can call me Pope St. Gary.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2009, 10:54:54 AM »
Quote from: Gary on November 03, 2009, 10:51:08 AM
Quote from: jiggyfly on November 03, 2009, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: Gary on November 03, 2009, 10:38:50 AM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: jiggyfly on November 03, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 09:58:17 AM
God never started a 'church'... so you will never find it.

The greek word used to describe groups of followers was 'ekklesia'.. which is a term that has very little to do with what we call a 'church' today.  Church is more a pagan term with pagan origins then it has to do with followers of Christ.


I agree , the english word "church" is a mistranslation. It comes from an entirely different greek word than "ekklesia".

Church comes from the Greek word kuriakos, that means "house of the Lord" or from the German word kirche.

However when we use the word church as in the “true church” we do not mean the building but the people, the ekklesia. Therefore in that sense Church is the right word.

It is the word Jesus used when he said to Peter
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (ekklesia) (Mt 16:18)

And it is the same word (ekklesia) that Paul uses for the gatherings of people to worship.

To talk therefore of the Catholic Church is to speak of what Christ founded, whether it is a small local gathering or all those in unity with the Pope, as the earthly head of Christ’s Church.


The earthly head of the Church is Jesus Christ, who is still alive.

You mean it's not "pope whatever number their on"?

If a representative of Christ on earth is a pope, you can call me Pope St. Gary.

Can I be a Pew warmer?

NO?

ahh well...back to Peter's chair we go...
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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2009, 10:54:54 AM »
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winsome
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« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
Tantor
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« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?

If you can truly show me where he did (at least the RCC's interpretation of it).. I might believe you...

Otherwise, I just view the RCC as the continuation of a bunch of heretics that the original apostles fought so hard against.. and Rome was remote enough that they found safe haven there and built a mythology to support that they are the result of the unbiblical apostolic succession.
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winsome
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« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2009, 01:15:03 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?
If you can truly show me where he did (at least the RCC's interpretation of it).. I might believe you...
Read Mt 16:18, read Acts, read Pauls letters. It's all there.


Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Otherwise, I just view the RCC as the continuation of a bunch of heretics that the original apostles fought so hard against.. and Rome was remote enough that they found safe haven there and built a mythology to support that they are the result of the unbiblical apostolic succession.
You are welcome to your fantasies.
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
Tantor
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 01:18:20 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:15:03 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?
If you can truly show me where he did (at least the RCC's interpretation of it).. I might believe you...
Read Mt 16:18, read Acts, read Pauls letters. It's all there.


Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Otherwise, I just view the RCC as the continuation of a bunch of heretics that the original apostles fought so hard against.. and Rome was remote enough that they found safe haven there and built a mythology to support that they are the result of the unbiblical apostolic succession.
You are welcome to your fantasies.

Given there are no writings from Peter.. or any other original Apostle that supports your 'church'... I believe it is you that are living the fantasy.

But then there is no better argument against your church then the life of Jesus himself and what he preached against.
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 01:18:20 PM »
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winsome
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2009, 01:21:42 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:15:03 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?
If you can truly show me where he did (at least the RCC's interpretation of it).. I might believe you...
Read Mt 16:18, read Acts, read Pauls letters. It's all there.


Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Otherwise, I just view the RCC as the continuation of a bunch of heretics that the original apostles fought so hard against.. and Rome was remote enough that they found safe haven there and built a mythology to support that they are the result of the unbiblical apostolic succession.
You are welcome to your fantasies.

Given there are no writings from Peter.. or any other original Apostle that supports your 'church'... I believe it is you that are living the fantasy.


You read Mt 16:18,  Acts, Pauls letters very quickly. Or was your original offer bogus?
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
Tantor
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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2009, 01:30:05 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:21:42 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:15:03 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?
If you can truly show me where he did (at least the RCC's interpretation of it).. I might believe you...
Read Mt 16:18, read Acts, read Pauls letters. It's all there.


Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Otherwise, I just view the RCC as the continuation of a bunch of heretics that the original apostles fought so hard against.. and Rome was remote enough that they found safe haven there and built a mythology to support that they are the result of the unbiblical apostolic succession.
You are welcome to your fantasies.

Given there are no writings from Peter.. or any other original Apostle that supports your 'church'... I believe it is you that are living the fantasy.


You read Mt 16:18,  Acts, Pauls letters very quickly. Or was your original offer bogus?

I've read them many times.

But you still haven't proven any legitimate claim to that verse.

Where is the evidence of Peter laying his hands on his successor and that his successor was to carry on with his authority?... where is the evidence that Peter wanted his church set up in the capital of the arch enemy of his Jewish roots?... where is the evidence that he wanted a class of priests.. where is there any evidence whatsoever?... except for the writings 2-3 centuries later of people trying to claim authority that Peter didn't grant?
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JohnDB
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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2009, 01:33:55 PM »
Ecclesia is the word in Greek that is used to translate as Church in modern times...

But it never did mean "Church"...Ecclesia meant literally "Called out ones" and is a euphamism for the Kingdom of God citizenry.

It has no bearing on an earthly organization and never will. It is one of Heaven and not earth. In the same manner that mankind has always misunderstood God and his desires there can't be an earthly organization that ever will follow what God intended.

Also considering the fact that there is not one denomination that has it correct completely these days and there never will be one with perfect understanding...we all have to make do with what we have.


Meanwhile if you just want to have a debate between the Catholics versus the Protestants...I will take your leave.
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I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in my sleep; not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.
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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2009, 01:33:55 PM »
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winsome
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« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2009, 01:38:54 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 01:30:05 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:21:42 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:15:03 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?
If you can truly show me where he did (at least the RCC's interpretation of it).. I might believe you...
Read Mt 16:18, read Acts, read Pauls letters. It's all there.


Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Otherwise, I just view the RCC as the continuation of a bunch of heretics that the original apostles fought so hard against.. and Rome was remote enough that they found safe haven there and built a mythology to support that they are the result of the unbiblical apostolic succession.
You are welcome to your fantasies.

Given there are no writings from Peter.. or any other original Apostle that supports your 'church'... I believe it is you that are living the fantasy.


You read Mt 16:18,  Acts, Pauls letters very quickly. Or was your original offer bogus?

I've read them many times.

But you still haven't proven any legitimate claim to that verse.

Where is the evidence of Peter laying his hands on his successor and that his successor was to carry on with his authority?... where is the evidence that Peter wanted his church set up in the capital of the arch enemy of his Jewish roots?... where is the evidence that he wanted a class of priests.. where is there any evidence whatsoever?... except for the writings 2-3 centuries later of people trying to claim authority that Peter didn't grant?



Whilst these may be valid questions they should be asked in the Catholic Forum. Your claim was that Christ did not found a church which is relevant to this forum.

Mt 16:18 shows Jesus founding a Church.

Acts is the history of the growth of the Church.

Pauls letters were mostly writtenn to churches, whilst Timothy & Titus show the setting up of church structures.
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
Tantor
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:38:54 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 01:30:05 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:21:42 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 01:15:03 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 10:33:21 AM
Christ did not found a church.... period.

Yes he did......period

Great debate eh?
If you can truly show me where he did (at least the RCC's interpretation of it).. I might believe you...
Read Mt 16:18, read Acts, read Pauls letters. It's all there.


Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
Otherwise, I just view the RCC as the continuation of a bunch of heretics that the original apostles fought so hard against.. and Rome was remote enough that they found safe haven there and built a mythology to support that they are the result of the unbiblical apostolic succession.
You are welcome to your fantasies.

Given there are no writings from Peter.. or any other original Apostle that supports your 'church'... I believe it is you that are living the fantasy.


You read Mt 16:18,  Acts, Pauls letters very quickly. Or was your original offer bogus?

I've read them many times.

But you still haven't proven any legitimate claim to that verse.

Where is the evidence of Peter laying his hands on his successor and that his successor was to carry on with his authority?... where is the evidence that Peter wanted his church set up in the capital of the arch enemy of his Jewish roots?... where is the evidence that he wanted a class of priests.. where is there any evidence whatsoever?... except for the writings 2-3 centuries later of people trying to claim authority that Peter didn't grant?



Whilst these may be valid questions they should be asked in the Catholic Forum. Your claim was that Christ did not found a church which is relevant to this forum.

Mt 16:18 shows Jesus founding a Church.

Acts is the history of the growth of the Church.

Pauls letters were mostly writtenn to churches, whilst Timothy & Titus show the setting up of church structures.

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.

No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
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