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Author Topic: Where will I find God's true Church to day ?  (Read 327 times)
winsome
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2009, 03:13:57 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

Acts and Pauls letters are all about an institution. For example:-

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you (Ti 5:7)

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.
Forr no reason.

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
When you have no argument resort to cheap insults.
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
Tantor
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

Acts and Pauls letters are all about an institution. For example:-

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you (Ti 5:7)

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.
Forr no reason.

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
When you have no argument resort to cheap insults.


Presbyters have very little to do with institutions.

And it was not meant as a cheap insult.. I know of no catholic that lives as a christian should... most are hard drinking, cussing people who go to mass once a week to clear their conscience.

The priests at the local catholic church are Maryists.. and have little to say about Jesus.
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM »
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winsome
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2009, 03:35:59 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM


And it was not meant as a cheap insult.. I know of no catholic that lives as a christian should... most are hard drinking, cussing people who go to mass once a week to clear their conscience.

The priests at the local catholic church are Maryists.. and have little to say about Jesus.

It's a cheap insult and of no relevance to this issue.
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2009, 03:35:59 PM »
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Tantor
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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2009, 03:38:31 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:35:59 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM


And it was not meant as a cheap insult.. I know of no catholic that lives as a christian should... most are hard drinking, cussing people who go to mass once a week to clear their conscience.

The priests at the local catholic church are Maryists.. and have little to say about Jesus.

It's a cheap insult and of no relevance to this issue.

It absolutely is... If the people who attend your church do not act like Christians... then it kind of disqualifies it.
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winsome
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« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2009, 03:44:27 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

Acts and Pauls letters are all about an institution. For example:-

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you (Ti 5:7)

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.
Forr no reason.

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
When you have no argument resort to cheap insults.


Presbyters have very little to do with institutions.


It's about structure - bishops, priests deacons

It's about the passing on of authority by the laying on of hands.

If you do not understand and accept that Jesus set up a structure with authority and the ability to pass on that authority, and that he made promises to it, covenant promises. which he guarantees, that this Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13) then you have no valid basis for any of your beliefs.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 03:55:53 PM by winsome » Logged
What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
Tantor
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2009, 03:49:54 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:44:27 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

Acts and Pauls letters are all about an institution. For example:-

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you (Ti 5:7)

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.
Forr no reason.

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
When you have no argument resort to cheap insults.


Presbyters have very little to do with institutions.


It's about structure - bishops, priests deacons

It's about the passing on of authority by the laying on of hands.

If you do not understand and accept that Jesus set up a structure with authority and the ability to pass on that authority, and that he made promises to it, covenant promises. which he guarantees, that this Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13) then you have no basis for any of your beliefs.



There are no priests mentioned in the New Testaments.. except for our High Priest (Jesus) and a Royal Priesthood (all believers).. elders, deacons and apostles are the only other 'offices' mentioned.  Elders are to be married and deal with spiritual matters, while deacons deal with the needs of the flock, while Apostles evangelize and oversee the servant leadership of local congregations.

Now how does the RCC model this?  If they don't abide by the structure set forth by the original apostles then it is illegitimate.
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2009, 03:49:54 PM »
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winsome
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« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2009, 03:53:43 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:49:54 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:44:27 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

Acts and Pauls letters are all about an institution. For example:-

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you (Ti 5:7)

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.
Forr no reason.

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
When you have no argument resort to cheap insults.


Presbyters have very little to do with institutions.


It's about structure - bishops, priests deacons

It's about the passing on of authority by the laying on of hands.

If you do not understand and accept that Jesus set up a structure with authority and the ability to pass on that authority, and that he made promises to it, covenant promises. which he guarantees, that this Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13) then you have no basis for any of your beliefs.



There are no priests mentioned in the New Testaments.. except for our High Priest (Jesus) and a Royal Priesthood (all believers).. elders, deacons and apostles are the only other 'offices' mentioned.  Elders are to be married and deal with spiritual matters, while deacons deal with the needs of the flock, while Apostles evangelize and oversee the servant leadership of local congregations.

Now how does the RCC model this?  If they don't abide by the structure set forth by the original apostles then it is illegitimate.



How the Catholic Church models it is not relevant to the point we are discussing.

But I note that you accept there are "offices" - whether you call them elders, deacons and apostles or some other name.

If you have "offices", a structure and a "flock" then you have an institution - a Church

So now you admit that Christ founded a Church.

Thank you
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
Tantor
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2009, 04:00:59 PM »
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:53:43 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:49:54 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:44:27 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

Acts and Pauls letters are all about an institution. For example:-

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you (Ti 5:7)

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.
Forr no reason.

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
When you have no argument resort to cheap insults.


Presbyters have very little to do with institutions.


It's about structure - bishops, priests deacons

It's about the passing on of authority by the laying on of hands.

If you do not understand and accept that Jesus set up a structure with authority and the ability to pass on that authority, and that he made promises to it, covenant promises. which he guarantees, that this Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13) then you have no basis for any of your beliefs.



There are no priests mentioned in the New Testaments.. except for our High Priest (Jesus) and a Royal Priesthood (all believers).. elders, deacons and apostles are the only other 'offices' mentioned.  Elders are to be married and deal with spiritual matters, while deacons deal with the needs of the flock, while Apostles evangelize and oversee the servant leadership of local congregations.

Now how does the RCC model this?  If they don't abide by the structure set forth by the original apostles then it is illegitimate.



How the Catholic Church models it is not relevant to the point we are discussing.

But I note that you accept there are "offices" - whether you call them elders, deacons and apostles or some other name.

If you have "offices", a structure and a "flock" then you have an institution - a Church

So now you admit that Christ founded a Church.

Thank you


No.. he calls out an ekklesia (or assembly) to himself.. with certain people having gifts bestowed by him (temporary gifts) to minister to his assembly.

It is Jesus who the church is founded on, Jesus leads his people and Jesus calls whom he wants to lead... there is no room for human invented institutions in his ekklesia.

Jesus called his apostles directly and will do the same with any other apostles... just like he called Prophets in the Old Testament... there was no laying on of hands from prophet to prophet.. it is God who bestows the power and guides.. not the institutions of mankind.. especially an institution modeled after Roman pagan temples.
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JohnDB
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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2009, 04:05:53 PM »
Winsome and Tantor still going hammer and tongs at it for three pages now...

Round five coming up in a minute...

  Announcement  On Soapbox

 Sword fight
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2009, 04:08:49 PM »
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2009, 04:08:49 PM »
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2009, 08:04:25 PM »
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 03:28:10 PM
Quote from: winsome on November 03, 2009, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

No... Jesus called out his elect (an ekklesia).

Acts is Jesus calling out from the elect servants for his ekklesia.

An ekklesia is not an institution... what we have here is a breakdown in comprehension.

Acts and Pauls letters are all about an institution. For example:-

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you (Ti 5:7)

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
But if you insist on using the term church.. then I will continue insisting that the very presence of a 'church' declares it as pagan.
Forr no reason.

Quote from: Tantor on November 03, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
No matter though.. the scriptures say you will no Christians by their deeds and love... something that is non-existent in the RCC.
When you have no argument resort to cheap insults.


Presbyters have very little to do with institutions.

And it was not meant as a cheap insult.. I know of no catholic that lives as a christian should... most are hard drinking, cussing people who go to mass once a week to clear their conscience.

The priests at the local catholic church are Maryists.. and have little to say about Jesus.

Tantor,

Per gentleman's agreement Anti-Catholic Bigotry and Catholic Bashing are to be posted down in the Catholic Section. 
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Maiden! hear a maiden's prayer;
Mother, hear a suppliant child!
Ave Maria!
winsome
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« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2009, 03:48:22 AM »
Quote from: JohnDB on November 03, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
Winsome and Tantor still going hammer and tongs at it for three pages now...

Round five coming up in a minute...

  Announcement  On Soapbox

 Sword fight

No need for round 5.

Tantor has accepted that Jesus founded an institution with structure and offices however much he may try to backtrack on it.  Smile
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What is good has been explained to you, man; this is what the Lord asks of you: only this, to act justly, to love tenderly and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)
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scarey isn't it?

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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2009, 06:09:53 AM »
Quote from: winsome on November 04, 2009, 03:48:22 AM
Quote from: JohnDB on November 03, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
Winsome and Tantor still going hammer and tongs at it for three pages now...

Round five coming up in a minute...

  Announcement  On Soapbox

 Sword fight

No need for round 5.

Tantor has accepted that Jesus founded an institution with structure and offices however much he may try to backtrack on it.  Smile

I do not believe what you are saying to be true...but

you can go at it in the Catholic forum if you like...
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I wanna die like grandpa, peacefully and in my sleep; not like the passengers in his car...they were all screaming and panicking.
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« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2009, 06:09:53 AM »
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