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Theology Forum / Re: John 3:16..."should not," or "shall not" perish?
« Last post by TonkaTim on Today at 11:31:03 AM »
Thaddeus, I'm keeping you in prayers brother.

But, I have no desire to argue this with you.
This thread has been beaten to death.


I was making some points to Jaime in hoping  he would consider what I presented.
Jaime usually will do such.
He may not agree, but Jaime will consider because he is usually very reasonable, even when he is at his least reasonableness which is only in the politics threads. Jaime is strong in his convictions but I have never seen him not consider another reasonable possibility.
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Is our war with flesh and blood?  There's a question to be answered.

 For we wrestle not against fleshb and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 1
  Eph 6:12-13

What is your question?  These are the spiritual force of evil that works in this world. They are constantly working to destroy us. This is why Paul said we must put on the whole armor of God.
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Theology Forum / Re: John 3:16..."should not," or "shall not" perish?
« Last post by Thaddaeus on Today at 11:13:53 AM »
TonkaTim,

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I also see & understand if man's will was truly free all men would easily choose God.
Again,  reality does not show this beginning with Adam. 

Your definition of "free will" is flawed.  All it really means is that man is free to choose from the choices available. No one, God or Satan or any other can force, compel, of do the actions of man's will.

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But man's will can not truly free because man can not "perform that which is good"
God thinks otherwise and chose a lot of individuals because of their righteousness. This smacks of the subtleness of your root theology again, total depravity, man can do nothing except God actually does it for Him.

Quote
The more man loves sin the greater the bondage & deeper decent into darkness. Man will love sin so much that God will eventually "turn them over to a reprobate mind" because they are "without excuse".

Knowing this, what allows a man to ask the most important question ever devised? "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
That was Christ, but He delivered the world, every human being from death.  Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin, which man had due to the condemnation of death through Adam. This is why Christ can demand perfection from you. He can demand that you stop sinning, to curb your sinful habits and to strive to walk in the Spirit more and less by the flesh. 

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A will subject to the bondage of loving sin or the Grace of God?
which is the exact freedom Christ gave all men by defeating death and sin. He left the choice of being slaves to sin or slaves to Christ totally, completely in the hands, desires of men.

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I think the answer lies in Paul's answer "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
It can only be by the power & Grace of God that some are not so far gone & wicked to be able respond to God & ask the most important question that we all have to ask. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
no, that so many are far gone or some not so much is not God's doing in the least. It all has to do with man and his free will in reponding to the universal call of God to all men in many different ways. Man chooses to be in whatever level he is at. God does not put him in either evil or good.

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How do we know really know they were ever really with us?

Is it because they put on what Paul calls "a form of godliness"?
Are you sure they are not just putting on a very good show?
And thus only"a form of godliness"
They learn the language.
They do the right things
Say the right things
They seem like sincere believers. But in truth may well still in love with sin, not God, thus actually "denying the power thereof".

This is the essence of the works-based gospel. Men thinking they can put on the show, do the right thing. That they can somehow attain righteous by the acts of their own corrupt will, but always "denying the power thereof". The power of God.
First, your statement shows you want to play God.  You want to know the heart of man so you can judge what you have no business judging. Only God can and will judge every human being.

You are correct if one thinks works will saved, contrary to scripture, but the converse is also false. One cannot be saved by faith alone either. Both lead to hell.  What you fail to understand both believers and unbelievers have a corrupt will. We all have the very same nature, a fallen nature.






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dpr and Hobie  -  Thank you both for not politely ignoring my challenge, and for being willing to hit the ball over the net one more time.

Certainly, I would be a fool indeed if I had not tried to deal honestly with the I Cor. 15:51-54 passage as it connects with the I Thess. 4 rapture text.  Thank you also, dpr, for acknowledging that there is no language in the I Thess. 4 text concerning a translation of the bodies of the righteous during that event.  It's the classic idea that I Cor. 15, as you understand it, supplies the details of a translation that I Thess. 4 does not include. 

But does it really do that?  The I Cor. 15:52 verse that was put up as a reminder speaks ONLY of the DEAD being raised and changed into an incorruptible physical form in a moment's time at the last trumpet - there is no change for the living spoken of there.   And, as verse 54 claims, when that change of the corruptible to incorruptible FOR THE DEAD occurs, then at that time the saying of DEATH being swallowed up in victory would have been fulfilled.

The tricky phrase in verse 51 (that has thrown the interpretation out of whack for so long for so many) is this:  "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."  Most people would say this is a slam-dunk to understand.  It's not.

Let me offer a common-place comparison that might help you figure out just where I'm coming from on this.  Suppose a bunch of employees are trying to find out what the boss's plans are for a pay raise one year.  They decide to go ask the assistant manager together in a group, " Are we all going to get a raise this year?"  The assistant manager tells them, "We shall not all get a raise, but we shall all get a bonus."  Now, one hopeful employee hears THIS behind the assistant manager's statement:  "Well, not everybody is getting a raise, but I'm probably one of those who is going to get one, and a bonus too, because I've worked so much overtime."  Another will hear THIS behind the very same comment:  "Not a single one of us is going to get a raise, but at least we will all get a bonus." 

What's the difference between the way each of these employees hears this same comment?  The first one hears an emphasis on the word "ALL" -  "We shall not ALL get a raise (but some of us will)."  The other hears an emphasis on the word "NOT" - "We shall NOT all get a raise - not one of us."  It is the same difference that happens when you read I Cor. 15:52 with an emphasis on these words NOT and ALL.  A totally different interpretation comes up depending on which word receives the emphasis. 

That was my simplistic attempt at an explanation using only the words of scripture in the text itself.  It's enough proof for me.  But for those who also like to look at the Greek and the Aramaic rendering for this verse, I have included it below.  Now, mind you, I am no Greek scholar.  I am just familiar enough with it to be a danger to myself, I suppose.  But I do have an immediate family member who has taught Greek for years.  Apparently, negatives are notoriously difficult to translate properly.  See the below:

Greek - Be perceiving secret to you I am saying   all indeed not we shall be being put to repose    all yet we shall be being changed.

Aramaic - Behold, say I to mystery [no, not] [all,every, whole, entirely] sleep [all, every, whole, entirely] [but, yet] [change, transmute, alter].

Do you see what I mean when I say it isn't a slam-dunk to understand this phrase?  According to the Aramaic, I have heard that it could actually be translated to say "None of us shall sleep, but all of us shall be transformed."  That would seem to imply that no one will ever die, and we know that's not true.    But try comparing that to what Christ told Martha in John 11:26, "...and everyone who lives and believes in me SHALL NEVER DIE."  This "shall never die" reads in the Interlinear "shall not die FOREVER".  Now we're getting somewhere.  We know that it is appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment.  But, for the believer, THEY WILL NOT STAY DEAD FOREVER, but they will be changed to an incorruptible body form in the resurrection before that body enters heaven.  This, then, is how I believe  I Cor 15:52 is meant to be interpreted and understood - "We shall NOT all sleep (NONE of us shall sleep FOREVER), but we shall all be changed (to an incorruptible, individual, physical body to meet the Lord)." 

With this promised reward of a changed, incorruptible body that the Corinthians would inherit in the resurrection (not a translation), Paul says that their "labor would not be in vain in the Lord".

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Is our war with flesh and blood?  There's a question to be answered.
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Hebrews 1:13-14 says that angels are spirits.

True.  And Paul describes Our Lord (who had a physical body) that way also:

1 Corinthians 15:45  So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

Let's examine the passage in context.  I have added important emphasis:

1 Cor. 15
Quote
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

This passage is referring to what human bodies will become in the resurrection.  God took human flesh and so through that redeemed the human race, and in so-doing brought us into his own body.  So in the resurrection, our bodies will be raised and glorified as Christ's body is glorified.

That is not true of angels, who are only spirits, and never described as becoming incarnate.

Luke 24
36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

Jesus was not simply a spirit, but God (who is spirit) made flesh, taking on human flesh. Angels, who are only called spirits in scripture, according to our lord "do not have flesh and bones".

CHAPTER 13
1 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares
 Heb 13:1-2     

Jesus was both spirit and flesh. These angels must be able to be flesh also

Being able to appear as flesh and manipulate the physical world doesn't mean that they are flesh.

You proclaim to be so knowledgeable. How would know? Have you entrained any. have shook hands with any?

If I have shook hands with any what would that prove?

How come I have such scrutiny but not others, including yourself? You proclaim to be so knowledgeable. Have you ever had a piece of angel flesh in your possession? 

What if an angel were to get eaten by a crocodile? Would he die?  Could Satan die if he were to have his flesh melted away by a nuclear reaction?  Should we plan a nuclear assault on hell in order to end the evil that demons inflict on the world?
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Since angels have no physical bodies, they can appear in whatever form they want to,
Can you give me one example in scripture where an angel did not have a body?

I meant male or female.
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Theology Forum / Re: John 3:16..."should not," or "shall not" perish?
« Last post by TonkaTim on Today at 10:00:59 AM »
Jaime said "a believer can walk away because God does not remove man's free will. He does empower him with the "tools" to stay, if he chooses to stay. Some do not. I know that for a fact. I have seen it. And no, the inarguable argument doesn't apply because the people I know about exhibited in spades the fruit of the Holy Spirit for decades. They were not fake believers. They chose against admittedly high odds to walk away. God never shackles anyone to the strait and narrow. If he did, that would be most helpful, but not in his nature since he wants us to CHOOSE to love and trust him upon being lead or drawn by the Spirit, not as a irresistible force. If that's what he wanted, he would've created us that way from the beginning and had THAT kind of relation with us, and avoided all the warnings."


Jaime, I do agree God did not create men as or to be automatons. Man has will.

I also see & understand if man's will was truly free all men would easily choose God. The Apostle Paul explained the problem quite succinctly when he said; "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."


So I agree with Paul, man has will.

But man's will can not truly be free because man can not "perform that which is good"

I think the key to understanding is in verse 15 prior "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I"

The key is "what I hate". What is it that Paul hates? Sin.


Jesus tells us the condemnation: "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

The more man loves sin the greater the bondage & deeper descent into darkness. Man will love sin so much that God will eventually "turn them over to a reprobate mind" because they are "without excuse".

Knowing this, what allows a man to ask the most important question ever devised? "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"


A will subject to the bondage of loving sin or the Grace of God?


I think the answer lies in Paul's answer "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
It can only be by the power & Grace of God that some are not so far gone & wicked to be able respond to God & ask the most important question that we all have to ask. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"


Which leads me to those who we think "fall away".

How do we know -really know- they were ever really with us?

Is it because they put on what Paul calls "a form of godliness"?

Are you sure they are not just putting on a very good show?
And thus only"a form of godliness"
They learn the language.
They do the right things
Say the right things
They seem like sincere believers. But in truth may well still be in love with sin, not God, thus actually "denying the power thereof".

This is the essence of the works-based gospel. Men thinking they can put on the show, do the right thing. That they can somehow attain righteousness by the acts of their own corrupt will, but always "denying the power thereof". The power of God.


Paul says "from such turn away."

Sometimes it is very difficult to know who to "turn away" from. Because;
" 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." 2 Corinthians



(Romans 1,7, John 3, 2 Timothy 3)

*Hopefully this is my last post in this thread"

edit: grammar & spelling
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In Acts 9, Jesus said Paul was His chosen vessel to preach The Gospel to...

1. the Gentiles
2. to kings
3. to the children of Israel

That suggests to me God's Word can be preached on 3 levels.

1. The Gentiles: they are not necessarily going to be given to understand a lot of the promises God first gave to Israel, nor much of the law.

2. kings: those in Christ which God chooses to rule are supposed to know His laws so as to fulfill their duty to govern His people. Not everyone needs to know those things a king needs to know.

3. the children of Israel: to them are the oracles and promises Paul said; others may not be given to know Israel's history, prophecies, etc.

Thus I see God's Word can be taught on those 3 levels. Each level will agree with the other, and involves the same one Gospel of Jesus Christ from the Book of Genesis all the way through the Book of Revelation.
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Theology Forum / Re: Do you understand the law and its purpose?
« Last post by fish153 on Today at 09:44:04 AM »
Swordmaster said---

>>>No, it isn't...but again, you competely and utterly fail to take any kind of principles of Biblical interpretation into consideration, and that is why you slant the interpretations that you give, and can't come to understand the intended meaning of the passages that you try to. He says that He will never leave or forsake us...He said nothing about you leaving or forsaking Him...but because you filter that through your bias, and take your bias over and above what the Scriptures clearly teach...you come back with that kind of response.<<<

That is one of the most ridiculous "principle of Biblical interpretation" I have ever heard.  Listen to your own logic above---it doesn't make sense.  Whether we leave him or forsake Him has no importance if He is NEVER going to leaver or forsake US! This means he will NEVER stop pursuing US, even if we were to forsake Him. This matches well with
what David said in Psalm 139----that if he were to FLEE to any place, GOD IS THERE.  God makes the promise that He will never leave us or forsake us--which we should be so entirely grateful for----as the tendency of our hearts IS to leave and forsake God.  God understands that---and that is why He has made such a Gracious New Covenant with us---based on what he has DONE---not on what we DO.
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