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21
Tyler you need to look at real history.  It is not true that most of the framers were agnostic.  Most were Christians and a few diests.   Even this through Thomas Jefferson turned the capital into a church.  He also had the bible printed at government expense.

HEAR!  HEAR!
22
Catholic Forum / Re: The biggest reason I am catholic
« Last post by 4WD on Today at 08:06:19 AM »
No, my doctrine is much earlier, somewhere between about 1500 BC and 95AD.  It is called the Bible.

This truth is this:  both your position and mine go back to Abel and Cain...One manifested his salvation by faith in a sacrifice that was by promise; and the other sought his acceptance by the system of works, and rejected God's way through the seed of a woman.   

So, which one are you..... a follower of Abel or Cain?

Red Baker, you can stop with the implied accusations.  It is beneath you.

I am a follower of neither Cain nor Abel.  I am a follower of Christ.
23
Debate Forum for Churches of Christ / Re: John 3:5
« Last post by 4WD on Today at 08:03:53 AM »
John 3:5.  Not talking about baptism.  Timing and context prove that.

Of course it is. Timing and context prove that.

The baptism of Christ has not yet happened.  That is why context and timing are key, instead of CofC ideology.

Joh 1:27  "It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."
Joh 1:28  These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Joh 1:29  The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30  "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
Joh 1:31  "I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water."
Joh 1:32  John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
Joh 1:33  "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
Joh 1:34  "I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."
24
Catholic Forum / Re: The biggest reason I am catholic
« Last post by Red Baker on Today at 08:01:03 AM »
No, my doctrine is much earlier, somewhere between about 1500 BC and 95AD.  It is called the Bible.

This truth is this:  both your position and mine go back to Abel and Cain...One manifested his salvation by faith in a sacrifice that was by promise; and the other sought his acceptance by the system of works, and rejected God's way through the seed of a woman.   

So, which one are you..... a follower of Abel or Cain?
25
Catholic Forum / Re: The biggest reason I am catholic
« Last post by 4WD on Today at 07:55:06 AM »
Maybe you should just go with God in His written word and forget about the writings of Smith, Russell, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther and all those "early church fathers".

That's deceitful!  Smith, Russell~reformers?  Not even close.  Shame on you, but what should we expect any more from you? Your other post to me is not even worth commenting on.  You mocked the teachings of Christ, and Paul, etc.~ Matthew 13:16,17; 1 Cor. 2:7-15

I didn't call them reformers.  I only referred to their writings.  Now your references are interesting, particularly 1 Corinthians 2.  I would hope that you do realize that nearly the whole of chapter 2 is Paul's defense of his divine inspiration as an apostle of Jesus Christ.  But I take it that you see it as describing you somehow.

And I didn't mock the teachings of Christ Paul, etc., but I admit that I did sort of mock some of the teachings of Calvinism, Catholicism and Kabbalism.

Quote
Maybe you should just go with God in His written word

Practice what you preach.

I do to the best of my ability.  I seldom rely on the writings of long dead "reformers" or those "early church fathers".

4wd,

1 Corinthians 2
verse  6-16  is we and us
verse  1-5     is i referring to Paul

If you could see that then maybe you could also realize that spiritual truth is interpreted by the Spirit and
not taught by human wisdom.


If what you believe concerning verses 6-16 is true, there would have been no need for Paul to ever write anything. Everything could have just come directly to everyone through the Holy Spirit. But it did not. There should be no doubt whatsoever that Paul and a few others were inspired as no one today is. And that is the point of chapter two.  The idea that the Holy Spirit when writing, through the agencies of the apostles, to the saints in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, Colossae, Philippi etc. was incapable of writing intelligibly is simply ludicrous. It is an affront to God Himself to even think that. That thinking comes only to those who refuse to believe what the Bible says and need to have some excuse to give some other meaning to the words written.

I was only half joking about the Sky King decoder ring.  But fortunately God and Jesus through the Holy Spirit are quite capable of writing in comprehensible fashion.
26
Debate Forum for Churches of Christ / Re: John 3:5
« Last post by Texas Conservative on Today at 07:51:38 AM »
John 3:5.  Not talking about baptism.  Timing and context prove that.

Of course it is. Timing and context prove that.

The baptism of Christ has not yet happened.  That is why context and timing are key, instead of CofC ideology.
27
I think that this trial is a good thing in this age.  I remember churning butter as a child, the agitation brought the butter and cream to the top. 

Lovely and encouraging word picture. Thank you!  ::smile::
28
 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." Matthew 7:6

Directly from Christ, all that Christians need to know regarding assertion of their beliefs.

This is no more an "Age of Unbelief" than any other Age. A secular world never has and never will accept Christ with open arms. The "battle" is never ending. One must fight that battle intelligently or risk being turned on and torn to pieces. None of us have to compromise our fundamental beliefs, but all of us must be wise in the timing and audience to which we express those beliefs. There are times and places when silence is quite advantageous.

Pearls before swine.  As always, valuable advice from our Lord.
29
Catholic Forum / Re: The biggest reason I am catholic
« Last post by 4WD on Today at 07:42:49 AM »
I didn't call them reformers.  I only referred to their writings.

Agreed~but why even mention those heretic with godly men of old?

Because, even though they may not be as heretical, they nevertheless espouse some rather heretical thinking.

Quote
Quote
I seldom rely on the writings of long dead "reformers" or those "early church fathers".

Yes, your doctrine is much later, somewhere around 1812, when it began to have legs, and got some foothold in the church of Jesus Christ, even though it has been here since the beginning, in a different form.

No, my doctrine is much earlier, somewhere between about 1500 BC and 95AD.  It is called the Bible.
30
Catholic Forum / Re: The biggest reason I am catholic
« Last post by TonkaTim on Today at 07:33:54 AM »
Quote from:  RedBaker
Works, at best can only be an evidence, not the means thereof.

I fully agree on this point. But to me the greater point are the works of God. God brings us to the Light to manifest His Glory. I can find no scripture that will convince me that God will leave His children, the children of light, in darkness leaving them with all beliefs & appearances as the children of wrath. If one is a child of God they will be called into the Light, that is not the evidence of our works, but the evidence of His works.
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