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Theology Forum / Re: The Free Gift of Salvation
« Last post by e.r.m. on Today at 02:57:51 PM »
Memyself if someone say that the Romans verse that says believe in your heart and confess with your tongue is all that's required is by definition saying baptism is not required. I take ALL OF SCRIPTURE CUMULATIVELY. If other verses say repentence and baptism are required. I do not in any way say baptism by itself is all that is required, but it along with belief, repentence and confessing with our lips ARE required. I will continue to be relentless in stating that and I'm sure the other side will be equally relentless. Hence round and round.

a question Jaime...  can an unsaved man be baptized?
Scripturally, only unsaved men and women are baptized. Salvation is the purpose of baptism.

is it at all possible that water baptism is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?
There just so happens to be a likeness of baptism to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Romans 6:5, but it is not possible for that to be the purpose,  because the Scriptures have already assigned baptism a purpose Acts 2:38.
Yes, and that's the problem right there given in answers like that.The words the word,you don't get to embellish on it,thats whats wrong with the church now.Thank God He preserved His word but the rest of 2000 years of church doctrine is mostly garbage and should be trashed ::preachit::

What was embellished upon?
Yes, and that's the problem right there given in answers like that.The words the word,you don't get to embellish on it,thats whats wrong with the church now.Thank God He preserved His word but the rest of 2000 years of church doctrine is mostly garbage and should be trashed ::preachit::
The Roman Catholic Church is not "Mystery Babylon" or involved in any way in this end time silliness.   ::frown::

You would need to know what Babylon is first. The city of Babylon is the source of idol worship when nimrod was deified. his presecne was assumed to be in idols as deities of different form with different names. Nimrod was worshiped after death because he was Might renowned world wide and wanted people to be turned away from Yahuah to worship him. That is why the Roman church was referenced to Babylon because the church carried out many different practices similar to Babylon before the took in the disciples. But that is the problem. The disciples did not take in the church but the church took in the disciples hence corrupting Yahusha's teaching of purifying the  heart by accepting the new covenant in it which is a reinforcement of the old covenant. 

IMO Yahuah allowed the disciples to go into Roman church because they were being persecuted and was the best way to stop the killing of those who wanted to be true disciples. However, the killing has long ended hence get out of Babylon.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh
So, maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it appears to me that you are saying that the Palestinians suffer because they are trespassers in a place that God has granted to someone else.
I think you may be guilty of having a selective memory.

You have remembered the blessing, but seem to have forgotten the cursing.  Have you forgotten Mount Ebal?  The Israelites continuation in the land was dependent on their adherence to the covenant they swore to before entering the land, on the two mountains, Gerizim and Ebal.

Of course, as Moses prophesied, they did not uphold that covenant, and they reaped the curses, including removal from the land, more than once, before God ultimately divorced them completely.

Whatever claim Israel may have had on the land was long ago nullified.  God Himself saw to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the scattering of the people from the land.

It is one thing to claim that God has brought back a remnant.  It is entirely another to claim that the old contracts are still valid.  They are not.


Israel owns it's land via war. If they wanted too they could have invaded Palestine and put a stop to the political battles via strength of force. But the Israelites are a peaceful people and gave Palestinians the right to exist, but as long as the leaders in Palestine are the corrupt regimes in power then Israel cannot have peace with it's neighbour. So the solution is to remove the regime that fires rockets on Israel, but they are allied to powerful groups.

Theology Forum / Re: Scholars find Matt.28:19 to be fraudulent.
« Last post by Dougie56 on Today at 02:31:45 PM »
I don't get your point TS  ::shrug::
Theology Forum / Re: JOHN 3:5
« Last post by e.r.m. on Today at 02:29:27 PM »
the Greek word kai translated as "and" also means "also".  The section of the verse should actually ready "If neither one not be born of "water also of the breath(spirit)" then does not have the power to enter the kingdom of The Most High.

Water is a figure of speech relating to baptism which is also a symbol of purification of the heart as a metaphor. The word spirit is also superficial. It actually relates to breath of speech that are actually "words". The words is also in reference to baptizing with fire which is the covenant or the commandment written with fire to Moses. The words of the covenant is the holy spirit as in Special words or better put Words of the Special One, the covenant of the Creator. Holy means special or sacred. The message of baptism is repenting with a pure heart where water was not necessary but it pleases the Father when Jesus identified it with the message as a symbol.

Keeping the teachings(the Special Words) and abiding by them, the covenant, is keeping it in your heart where the renewed covenant is. The Holy Ghost with you is actually the words of the Special One with you in your heart so one will always do good by abiding by the teachings of the renewed covenant. The first covenant was breached by Israel and ended now renewed in the heart instead of on clay tablet where every man knows right from wrong because of Jesus making Jesus the way.

Also, keeping the Special Words/teachings of Jesus in your heart will allow you to get similar characteristics of the Father and The Son hence, baptize in the character of Father and Son in using the words to purify the heart to become a disciple.

The holy spirit is this same Hebrew word Ruhak which is the breath of speech of The Creator to command things into being. Let there be light is Special Words of Command which is of the breath of the Creator.

This understanding implies that the holy spirit is not a separate entity by words given by the Creator deemed special.
Welcome dalet.
The symbol discussion is a hot topic as the words "baptism is a symbol" are never written in the text of the Bible and all the discussion surrounding the idea of  baptism being a symbol is inferred. No one can say "it is implied", one can only infer that's what they meant, if they so choose.
Works cannot buy salvation but without them grace is dead because faith is dead,no works=no faith=no grace=no salvation James 2:14 Works not mixed with faith is no good either Hebrews 4:2 and Titus 3:5 these are the works of the Law done only in the flesh.Dead works and no faith also means no grace or salvation.but true grace will produce true faith which produces true works that you cannot separate from from salvation they are joined together.you cannot separate salvation and true righteousness its deception  ::preachit::

Have you noticed in the New Testament Scriptures that the early Church was still steeped in Judaism?   Will you accept that with the timing of the writing of James that there was still an emphasis on works?   The Book of Acts clearly shows that the Church progressed over time and began to accept Paul's teachings, even though they were tough pills to swallow.   

Look at this passage:

Galatians 2:11  But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Paul called Peter a hypocrite right to his face.

2Peter 3:15  And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Peter 3:16  as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Peter admits that Paul's teachings were not readily understood by all.   

I believe that these passages reflect the humanity and imperfectness within mankind.   We are prideful and we don't want to change.   The Bible tells a story, His Story.   We must be mindful of Him and what He has done.   
Theology Forum / Re: JOHN 3:5
« Last post by e.r.m. on Today at 02:10:41 PM »
I would like for any CoC person to step up and answer these questions from John chapter three. 

Question #1~ To what purpose did the Holy Spirit willed this discourse to be part of the holy scriptures?
I am not to try to speak for the Holy Spirit to say "It's this." All I can do is derive from what what is written. The purpose the Holy Spirit had is to give the message that He wrote down. He wanted us to know that one must be born of the water and the Spirit in order to enter God's kingdom.

Question #2~Was Nicodemus born again before this discourse, during, or later?  Why do you believe your position to be correct?
Based on the text, if he was, it would have been after. Jesus gave Nicodemus an instruction
John 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
It is not written in this passage that he was thus born again at this time. Plus God's kingdom arriving also happened later Luke 9:27.

Question #3~Why do you beleive that water in John 3:5 is speaking of one being baptized in baptism, when the OT is totally silence concerning such a doctrine, and without question, was not practiced as a means of a sinner being born of God.
In the OT forgiveness was obtained by sacrifice of animals. Also back then there was the ceremonial washing of utensils to be clean. By the 1st century, there was the mikveh. The mikveh was huge in the Jewish culture for cleansing.


John the baptist employed the mikveh on many in Israel. There is a precedence for water and the Spirit being baptism.
There is no precedence for water and the Spirit being physical birth.

Question #4Why did Jesus leave out water in John 3:6, as he distinguishes between being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit, if indeed water is to be understood to mean water baptism?  Would you not know that it must be included, if indeed it was part of being born of the Spirit, as you desperately want people to believe.  Why did Jesus leave it out?
For one, because he had just covered it in vs.3, 5. There were no verses in that conversatiin. Verses were introduced with the King James Bible. Jesus was having a conversation with Nicodemus. Jesus was answering Nicodemus's question earlier question
John 3:4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
Hence, the flesh and Spirit answer.
Jesus is allowed of course to explain things in his own way. He had already covered water and the Spirit twice, he doesn't have to meet a quota.

Last Question #5~In John 3:16, Jesus gave a statement of fact concerning those who have everlasting life, and is it not true, that baptism is not even mentioned as an evidence of men who will not perish~so, if baptism is essential before one can have eternal life, then why did not Jesus mention it when telling Nicodemus who will perish and who will not?  Also, John 3:36 Jesus clearly teaches us that one who believes is the one who gives  scriptural evidence that he hath everlasting life.  And he who gives that evidence is he who should be baptized just as John the Baptist taught, when he said, bring forth works meets for repentance! Are Jesus and John in complete agreement, that faith and godly works, qualify's men to be baptized, and them only.
Again, because Jesus had already covered it in the conversation and He doesn't have to follow how someone might think he should say it. He covered it. Later in the conversation he covered believing in him, and coming into the light.

Lastly, in John 3:36, by speaking of one rejecting the Son, it shows that he has a choice, and that salvation or lack thereof, is a result. Someone is already lost. If he believes in the Son, then he is saved, generally speaking.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
End Times Forum / Re: Is there really no hope after the rapture?
« Last post by notreligus on Today at 02:05:47 PM »
Do you believe that God is going to deal with the nation of Israel in a particular way near the time of the physical return of Christ?


Jeremiah 3:18  In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Jer 31.31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Zechariah 12:10  “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Romans 11:26  and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written

"full number of Gentiles" and "all Israel" essentially mean that there is a number from the Gentiles and from the Jews whom God knows will turn to Him.   "All" does not mean 100% of the Jews.   If that were so then we would now be promoting Universalism because God cannot give one group favor over another when it comes to salvation.   The Jews were under Grace but not a Grace that settled eternity (i.e. an eschatological grace).   The Law was a temporary program, a kindergarten.

The Book of Romans is about the New Program.  God is not racist nor is He partial to one over the other.   Under Christ things have changed.   You are trying to hold on to an old agreement that has been fulfilled and are disregarding the fulfillment.   Christ has fulfilled the prophecies.  He is the true Israel.   A nation of people do have not have a superior position over Him!!    There is an apostasy promoted within the Church which demotes Christ's position as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, and Great High Priest.   This apostasy/heresy is that one which is being espoused about Israel and her superior position.   

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

The Jews rejected their Deliverer who already came to them (and I don't mean in the Preterist sense).   Despite what John Hagee says Christ came as the Messiah.   The Jews didn't want Him!   
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