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21
Seventh Day Adventist Forum / Re: The Two Great Errors
« Last post by Gerhard Ebersöhn on Today at 10:11:25 »
Now instead of 'Strongs' sheer BS, take A.T Robertson's sheer honesty and integrity,

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Quote begins:
Now late on the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (opse de sabbatwn, th epipwskoush eiί mian sabbatwn). This careful chronological statement according to Jewish days clearly means that before the sabbath was over, that is before six P.M., this visit by the women was made "to see the sepulchre" (qeorhsai ton tapon). They had seen the place of burial on Friday afternoon (Mark 15:47; Matthew 27:61; Luke 23:55). They had rested on the sabbath after preparing spices and ointments for the body of Jesus (Luke 23:56), a sabbath of unutterable sorrow and woe. They will buy other spices after sundown when the new day has dawned and the sabbath is over (Mark 16:1). Both Matthew here and Luke (Luke 23:54) use dawn (epipwskw) for the dawning of the twenty-four hour-day at sunset, not of the dawning of the twelve-hour day at sunrise. The Aramaic used the verb for dawn in both senses. The so-called Gospel of Peter has epipwskw in the same sense as Matthew and Luke as does a late papyrus. Apparently the Jewish sense of "dawn" is here expressed by this Greek verb. Allen thinks that Matthew misunderstands Mark at this point, but clearly Mark is speaking of sunrise and Matthew of sunset. Why allow only one visit for the anxious women?
Quote ends

WHERE HAVE ALL THE JESUITS GONE? TO WHERE THEY'RE FROM!
22
Theology Forum / Re: baptism question?
« Last post by e.r.m. on Today at 10:06:44 »
jenna119,
Quote
e.r.m. ,
the part about sins not being forgiven at the cross?
I can only share what I've been reading about lately...
i remember that baptism was a favorite topic for me because I thought it was an easy one... I was still young then.
one day maybe 6 or 7 years ago now, I was reading and ephesians 1:13 jumped out at me. and I started reading and being consumed with verses about faith and eternal life and what Jesus did on the cross. it was like something new had opened up.
Thank you for sharing. I think what happened is good. We all get to a point, or should, where we don't just believe what's handed down to us, but own it or make it our own, or realize that what we've been handed down is wrong in some way. As long as this 'owning', if you will, is done through personal Bible study and prayer and not only by listening to the next person. Although asking questions of others is also good.
In my experience, I asked the evangelicals/reformationists, whatever term you wish to use, and Church of Christ folk my questions and the answers of the evangelicals who I asked did not match what I was reading.

I'll offer my understanding on Ephesians 1:13. There was another group of Ephesians Paul was speaking to in Acts 19.
Acts 19:1-5 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. [2] He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." [3] And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." [4] Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

In verses 2 and 3 Paul asked "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" When they said no, he asked "Into what then were you baptized?"

He didn't first ask them "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed and were baptized?" He took baptism as included in their having believed.

Like "You didn't receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?, I don't get, then into what were you baptized?"

This inclusive "belief" is also used in
Acts 2:41,44 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls...  [44] And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;

They had believed and been baptized as stated in vs. 41, but it says only those who had believed. Sometimes "believed" is used as an overall term. And as we see in Acts Paul did that too with these Ephesians. Ephesians 1:13 can't be nailed down as belief only.

Another thought on this is that the Bible authors emphasized different aspects of getting saved at different times, without not excluding others.
Acts 3:19 Repentance
Romans 6 Baptism
Acts 2:38 Repenting and baptism.
Galatians 3:26-27 Faith and baptism.
Ephesians 2:8 Grace and faith.
Romans 10:9-10 Believing and confessing Jesus as Lord.
Etc.

None of these excluded any of the others. At times the Bible authors emphasized one aspect or the other (or two at a time).

Quote
and then came the part where I had to reconcile what I grew up hearing with what I was reading.
maybe I've been caught up with reformation teaching and martin luther lately and finding out why people teach faith alone.
i'm not denying baptism if it's the place where i'm united to Jesus and lay aside my old self. I love that picture.
just trying to figure out how the pieces fit.
that's all.
I wish you well in your search. I like being united to Jesus and laying aside my old self too. And I'll be happy to share my understanding on any questions you have in fitting the pieces together. I want to share some more in that passage about baptism because I find we tend to stop reading in verse 4 or 5.
Look at all Paul says about baptism in this passage.
Romans 6:4-7 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin.
23
Theology Forum / Re: John 3 revisited Our Spiritual Births
« Last post by Kenneth Sublett on Today at 10:03:35 »
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the GENTILES WAS ALSO poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Poured was completed at Pentecost as Jesus AS glorified SPIRIT and POURED OUT what you could see and hear: the rushing wind was BREATH.

God as a person does not FALL ON people.

Here is part one of the WAY the literal word WIND is used.  Jesus giives Wind, Water and Fire to explain the unexplainablle.

Jer. 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Baptism of Spirit and Fire is to the Viper Race not able to be baptized INTO the heavenly kingdom.  That is proven when the WIND is not a person but that which JUDGES and separates the grain from the chaff.

Jer. 20:9 Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.
Jer. 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

That is why Jesus said MY WORD (as Spirit in John 6:63) will JUDGE you. God IS Word or Regulative Principe the OPPOSITE of worship IN THE FLESH: rhetoric, singing, playing instruments, acting or fleece. Those who FIGHT against the Regulative Principle fight against GOD who is the UNIQUELY revealer of SIRIT through His WORD.

Perhaps FOREORDAINED people cannot resist calling the Spirit OF God and Peter stupid.  The ROMANS speaking a language the JEWS understood as praising God was FIRE passing Judgment on the Doubting Jews.  If Peter had not been stupid--as assumeld--he WOULD have said SEE, these Gentiles ARE SAVED.  He did, he said CAN ANY MAN FORBID WATER.  Peter was sent to tell the Gentiles HOW TO BE SAVED or what PETER had been commanded.  Peter COMMANDED them to be BAPTIZED and if you can hold a thought through a verse the Jews were FORBIDDING WATER which is line the WATER Jesus was baptized to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Here is Part One in ways WIND is used in a figurative sense to define spirits or mental dispositions OF.



I will post part two.

24
Seventh Day Adventist Forum / Re: The Two Great Errors
« Last post by Gerhard Ebersöhn on Today at 10:02:26 »
Quote
Quote
Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results
Result of search for "2020":
2020. epiphosko ep-ee-foce'-ko a form of 2017; to begin to grow light:--begin to dawn, X draw on.

Yes, that is 'Strongs' in the 21st century! Go check it out in the first edition perhaps editions. Promise: You are not going to find this BS in it/them! Check the same FRAUD in 'Greens'!

More importantly as Naas Botha always says... WHERE ARE THE INCIDENCES? NONE! NONE!! NONE!!!

25
Seventh Day Adventist Forum / Re: The Two Great Errors
« Last post by Amo on Today at 09:52:55 »
GE answers:

Re: Amo
'How do you know how many or not knew that Jesus got buried? You don't. That is presumption.'

GE:
What is 'presumption', is "TO THINK ABOVE WHAT IS WRITTEN." Paul 1Corinthians 4:6. And I do not 'presume'; it is written 'how many or not knew that Jesus got buried': 1) Joseph, Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 Luke 23:50 John 19:38; 2) Nicodemus, John 19:39; 3) the two Marys, Mark 15:47 Matthew 27:61 Luke 23:55 "the two" 24:1.

Re: Amo:
Amo:
'How many were involved in the process of getting His body [ready] for burial'...?

GE:
The two men, Joseph and Nicodemus.

Re: Amo:
'How many were involved in the process of ... placing it in the tomb...?'

GE:
The two men, Joseph and Nicodemus.

Amo did not ask what the two Marys did, but I'll tell anyway:
"They followed after" in the procession to the grave.
Then "they beheld the sepulchre and how his body was laid" by the two men. Luke 23:55b,c.
Matthew 27:60 also tells that "they sat over against the sepulchre", observing what Joseph and, of course, Nicodemus who assisted him, did.

Joseph and those who were with him and helped him request, receive, and place Christ in the tomb knew. Those he made the request to knew. The Jews who requested that a guard be placed by the tomb knew. The guards and all associated with them during the time knew. No doubt many more also knew by word of mouth. Your do not know how many knew.
26
                               THE RABBI'S THANKSGIVING INVITATION    by J. Ben Avraham         11/26/2015


Rabbi Jacob Groshen left his humble house on West 3rd Street, He had accepted a Thanksgiving dinner invitation from the Smith family just a few streets up. He had never met the Smiths, but old pastor Williams from First Baptist had mentioned the rabbi's name to them, so, even without meeting him, they invited him to dinner. Now that's the Thanksgiving spirit.
     The rabbi's family had come to America many years ago, some left Russia and Poland and moved to Germany, later they immigrated to the states via Ellis Island. Grandfather (Saba) had started Beth Shalom, an orthodox synagogue back in the early 20s in their little town of Andersville.
     Most of the town's folk were Baptist or Lutherans, just a few families were Jewish.  Rabbi Groshen's demeanor was friendly, always saying hello or "shalom" to all who met him. He would go for his daily walks around the town's not-so-busy streets, with his black hat and grayish beard, his black suit jacket and white shirt.
     He would sometimes visit the Baptist church, enjoy the services. He read and studied the Torah, and especially liked Isaiah 53. He knew its meaning, even being Orthodox, he knew, in his heart, who his Messiah was, yes, he had the peace of heart. He lived a biblically kosher life-style, celebrated the Moedim, the High Holy days, with their true meanings in heart.
     Near Christmas time, cars would slow down and the drivers would say a few words like; "Hey Rabbi, the season is near, very near, so... "Merry Hanukkah" the rabbi would shout back, even before the drivers could finish their little greetings. The drivers would smile and shake their heads and drive on. The rabbi knew the history of December 25th, of Saturnalia, when the Emperor of Rome added Jesus to the list of his pagan gods, to be celebrated on that day. No, thought rabbi Groshen, December 25th would be just one more day of the year. He knew and studied Messiah's birth, during the time of Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, yet he was still polite to all, he respected their customs and belief, but if someone asked him what he thought, they would have to be prepared for a long encounter.
     But now it was Thanksgiving time, a time of saying thanks to God for blessings received throughout the year. His family had adopted the Thanksgiving custom, Turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, corn, pumpkin pie, eggnog with a shot of Schnapps. Grandpa Saba had adapted first to the custom, and soon, everyone followed.
     The years passed, the trees had turned shades of red, brown, and yellow many times over, his advanced age slowed him down. Most of his family had gone the way of all mankind, with the exception of Enoch and Elijah. He was grateful for this Thanksgiving invitation, even though he had never met the Smiths.
     He walked a few blocks up, found a red-brick house with a white door at 25 Elm Street. The name "Smith" was painted on the rustic looking mail box to the left of the driveway. He walked up to the front door, and rang the doorbell. The ding-dong rang out softly. A few seconds passed and a young woman in her forties opened the door;
     "You must be Rabbi Groshen" she smiled, extending her hand.
     "Yes" replied the rabbi, "Thank you for inviting me to Thanksgiving dinner"
     "Oh, it's a pleasure, won't you come in?" said the Mrs. Smith, opening the door all the way and standing aside. The rabbi walked into a nice, cozy home, with the Thanksgiving decors all around; pumpkins, Indian corn, Pilgrims and Indian cut-outs, and a long wooden table with all sorts of food items of the Thanksgiving season. There were 5 people at the table, Mr. Smith, who got up smiling and lead the rabbi to a vacant seat.
     "It's an honor to have you rabbi" Mr. Smith said joyfully. "The pastor told me about you".
"Well" replied the rabbi, "I have only spoken to him a few times, and I have visited your church just a few times as well. It seems that some people just don't seem to be comfortable around us, even though some of us, have recognized Yeshua as Messiah.
     "Well" replied Mr. Smith, "You're welcome here, have a seat, my wife Belinda is coming in with the dinner."
     Rabbi Groshen sat down, yes, he was hungry, and thought about the oven roasted Turkey that would come through the kitchen door at any minute. finally, the swinging doors parted and Belinda Smith come through with a covered platter. The other members of the household looked at rabbi with a sort of uncomfortable smile, as if, something was amiss.
     "Happy Thanksgiving" said Belinda Smith, uncovered the platter. The rabbi looked at the platter and his heart seemed to have skipped a beat. He felt a little nervous, the others were watching him. No, it wasn't a turkey, in the middle of the table, in a silver platter was an oven baked ham, with cloves and all.
     He was really in a predicament, He had always lead a kosher lifestyle, only eating Biblically kosher foods, you know, chicken, beef, turkey, lamb, goat, etc., in accordance to the Torah 's Leviticus 11. Now here lay a ham, a real-deal, porky-pig, oink, oink, ham. He stared at it, it was kind of oval shaped, with a bit of glaze.
     Now, he thought, I could do one of two things, I could say, "I can't eat this, this is unclean food, and just have some salad.” But then, he would embarrass his hosts, make them feel bad, why didn't they know that Jews didn't eat pork, or ham, or whatever you wanted to call swine flesh?
     But then he remembered something he had read, to accept whatever that was put in front of him, and give thanks, after all, he wouldn't die for eating ham, he wouldn't be cursed. It would only be this one time. Yes, he would accept the Smith's Thanksgiving ham dinner with all the trimmings.   Just one little slice would be enough, he could stuff himself with stuffing, cornbread, and cranberry sauce and enjoy the pitcher of spiced apple cider.
      "Thank you, I'll just have one slice of ham…I’m…ehh…not very hungry"
     "Just one slice" questioned Mr. Smith, sort of smiling...."Oh"...he continued...."It's turkey ham, not ham-ham". Now he was really smiling, the whole Smith house-hold was smiling, the younger kids were giggling.
     “Yes", Mrs. Smith said, "we try to eat kosher too, according to Leviticus 11, so, let's enjoy this boneless turkey that looks like ham."
     The rabbi let out a sigh of relief, "In that case, giving me four slices" he said, lifting his plate toward the platter of oven roasted turkey ham.

     “With pleasure” replied Mr. Smith, cutting him four slices.  “Happy Thanksgiving to us all!”  

....and...a Happy 2017 Thanksgiving to all of you who are reading this short tale for this time of year!           

27
Seventh Day Adventist Forum / Re: The Two Great Errors
« Last post by Amo on Today at 09:46:30 »
GE:
Re: Amo:
GE:
And what have I been saying all the time!?

Re: Amo:
GE:
So what's your point? You say 'the scriptures do not specifically say anywhere that Christ rose on the Sabbath or Sunday', but say No to 'Saturday evening which is actually Sunday' because it is 'bad wording'. When then do you say? Straight away you 'specifically' claim, 'Shortly before sundown Sabbath.' You must have been in a monologue all the while to nevertheless claim 'the scriptures do not specifically say anywhere that Christ rose on the Sabbath or Sunday.'

And you have had to be deaf and or blind and or illiterate and or non compos mentis that it all the while has not penetrated your head the fact that this ongoing 'discussion' has been confirming the Scriptures everywhere, specifically, say that Christ had to, and indeed did, rise: "on the Sabbath", had the "great earthquake" and "the angel of the Lord descending from heaven casting the stone from the grave" ANY MEANING whatsoever.

Yes I know, everyone who does not see it your way is deaf, blind, illiterate, non compos mentis, whatever that is. Nothing you have presented suggests to me that Christ had to rise on the Sabbath. While I might be deaf, blind, illiterate or non compos mentis, whatever that is, perhaps you are not to so good at explaining yourself either.

The earthquake took place "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week". You take this to mean near the end of the Sabbath, as evening approached and it was getting dark. I and most take it to mean that after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, which would make it Sunday morning. As the other scripture I shared also more conclusively stated saying "And when the sabbath was past,". Without the latter your argument would hold more weight with me, since I try examine all the testimony of scripture before making a decision. The latter seems to me, to confirm what most believe. This one thing though, you have in common with most Sunday sacredness proponents as I see it, you make to much hoopla concerning the specific day He rose upon. Both of your positions make more importance of it, than the scriptures themselves ever do. What happened on the day is far more important than exactly which day it happened upon.

The scriptures indicate nowhere, that the day it occurred had be memorialized by some type of weekly observance thereafter, or had to be upon the day already selected by God as such. This people have decided for themselves, as far as I can tell. Applying Christ life, death, and resurrection to ones own life by faith, is far more important than exactly which day any of these events took place. The fourth commandment of God does not require the Christ rose on the Sabbath to maintain its significance for the new covenant. Nor does Christ rising on the first day of the week take anything away from it, or establish a new day of worship in any way shape or form. I believe that all who would believe either, are in error, and have no scriptural foundation for either claim.
28
Seventh Day Adventist Forum / Re: The Two Great Errors
« Last post by Gerhard Ebersöhn on Today at 09:46:13 »
Amo:
Quote
How many were involved in the process of getting His body for burial, and placing it in the tomb. They set a guard around it in order to prevent anyone from faking a resurrection. To the contrary it is apparent that a lot of people were aware of Jesus burial, it certainly was not a secret.

GE:
Who were your 'they's'? NO ONE 'involved in the process of getting His body for burial, and placing it in the tomb', 'set a guard around it', or, planned 'to prevent anyone from faking a resurrection'... goodness gracious how atrocious!

Re: Amo:
Quote
...it is apparent that a lot of people were aware of Jesus burial, it certainly was not a secret.

GE:
Now this for you is what 'presumption' is --- is 'simply'... NO SCRIPTURE!

However, tell me, Why then did the 'lot of people (who) were aware of Jesus burial' wait until "the (next) morning that is after the Preparation" to, of all days on the Sabbath, "come and make the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone and setting a watch"? WHY HAVEN'T THEY DONE IT BEFORE THE SABBATH BEGAN, FRIDAY BEFORE SUNSET, IF it 'certainly was no secret' and it was 'apparent that a lot of people were aware of Jesus burial'?!

29
Seventh Day Adventist Forum / Re: The Two Great Errors
« Last post by Gerhard Ebersöhn on Today at 09:22:37 »
Quote
How do you know how many or not knew that Jesus got buried? You don't. That is presumption. How many were involved in the process of getting His body for burial, and placing it in the tomb. They set a guard around it in order to prevent anyone from faking a resurrection. To the contrary it is apparent that a lot of people were aware of Jesus burial, it certainly was not a secret.

GE answers:

Re: Amo
'How do you know how many or not knew that Jesus got buried? You don't. That is presumption.'

GE:
What is 'presumption', is "TO THINK ABOVE WHAT IS WRITTEN." Paul 1Corinthians 4:6. And I do not 'presume'; it is written 'how many or not knew that Jesus got buried': 1) Joseph, Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 Luke 23:50 John 19:38; 2) Nicodemus, John 19:39; 3) the two Marys, Mark 15:47 Matthew 27:61 Luke 23:55 "the two" 24:1.

Re: Amo:
Amo:
'How many were involved in the process of getting His body [ready] for burial'...?

GE:
The two men, Joseph and Nicodemus.

Re: Amo:
'How many were involved in the process of ... placing it in the tomb...?'

GE:
The two men, Joseph and Nicodemus.

Amo did not ask what the two Marys did, but I'll tell anyway:
"They followed after" in the procession to the grave.
Then "they beheld the sepulchre and how his body was laid" by the two men. Luke 23:55b,c.
Matthew 27:60 also tells that "they sat over against the sepulchre", observing what Joseph and, of course, Nicodemus who assisted him, did.






30
Theology Forum / Re: Catholicism and Paganism?
« Last post by e.r.m. on Today at 09:21:30 »
NorrinRadd,
Quote
I stand corrected on that particular point.

This is the first time I've encountered that term.  Based on the scant reading I've done, I'm skeptical that the mere coopting of an existing term implies importation of pagan concepts.

Frankly, however, even apart from pagan influences, I think Catholicism and Orthodoxy carry over an unhealthy amount of trappings from the Obsolete Covenant.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did, but my question is why Catholics feel comfortable with the obvious pagan importations listed in the OP and possibly others.
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