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Theology Forum / Re: Is Jesus God
« Last post by fish153 on Yesterday at 09:26:38 PM »
Omar also said...

IMO dalet was saying Jesus is a representation of YHWH in full in the flesh but YHWH was not limited to Jesus body as Jesus called out to YHWH externally and not to himself.

Omar...part of the nature of being God is that He is not limited in doing things like we are. I cannot be in three different places at once, manifesting myself in three different ways for different purposes and goals...but God can.

Therefore, it is nothing for God the Father to sit on His throne in heaven, speaking to God the Son here on earth, and as God the Spirit be present within a believer working in his life on a daily basis.

You are reading your own limitations onto God that simply do not apply to Him.


I like your post SM. but I am a bit confuse with something. Both of you are referring to the same being as omnipresent. You refer to YHWH by the title God that can be in more than one place anytime. Omar is referring to YHWH that can be in more than one place anytime including more than one person, except that he doesn't refer to him by the title god. Also, you are referring to Jesus as YHWH in the flesh which is true. However, Omar is saying that Jesus, YHWH in flesh is not omnipresent. Is it that you are saying that YHWH in the "Character" of Jesus, the flesh, while on Earth in the new testament times had the ability to be talking to Peter at the sea side as a fisher man and at the same time be with John getting baptized at the river? Certainly YHWH can do that in his character but could Jesus in the character of Jesus ? The purpose of the flesh was to be the character of flesh, limited in the body but can serve as a staff like that of Moses giving powers to heal. Is it that Omar was limiting YHWH that you call god or was it that he was limiting Jesus that was flesh that you also call god ? Both are considered Elohims in ruling kingdom and nations which was translated as theos in Greek meaning Most high and in more recent history substituted by a new word "god" of strange origin questionable pagan, now meaning deity applied to all that ruled, where YHWH, or you may say Jesus, is the supreme ruler or by the first commandment English standards the only "Ruler" even though there were many in the tribunal court system of Israel where certain elohims address certain matters before it reach Moses as a higher elohim/judge to make a decision however YHWH was the supreme elohim/judge/ruler with none above(before? Hebrew al) him. Is it that this more recent word "God" supersedes that of Creator, Ruler, Elohim. In character, Ruler and Elohim are the same but different from the character of "Creating" which is to cause existence. YHWH in character is existence in all sense and not just self existing as most people stress but also cause existence. That is the meaning of Eyer(I am/I exist) Asher(that) Eyer(I am/I exist/cause existence) which Jesus bears testimony and represent and proved to the world for people to repent.  I find it strange if there is a bible verse that might quote Jesus saying I am it is highlighted to say he was saying I am that I am like its a name but was the character of YHWH mistranslated where the verb to be has to be used together twice to show a character of existence in all sense which is included in the name YHWH 

If the title god was applied to other gods of other nations is it appropriate to refer to YHWH as god in making reference to the verses below:

 “And in all that I have said to you take heed. And make no mention of the name of other elohim, let it not be heard from your mouth." Exodus 23:13

“And it shall be, in that day,” declares YHWH, “that you call Me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer call Me ‘My Ba'al.’ “And I shall remove the names of the Ba'als from her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. Hoshea 2:16-17

“I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsehood in My Name, saying, ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’ “Till when shall it be in the heart of the prophets? – the prophets of falsehood and prophets of the deceit of their own heart, who try to make My people forget My Name by their dreams which everyone relates to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My Name for Ba'al." Jer 23:25-27

And what does the name Ba'al mean in Hebrew? It means lord. In my view calling YHWH 'The LORD' is the worst possible blasphemy because it is exactly what he makes clear he does not want to be called. What have the shepherds of Christianity done? They have caused the sheep to forget the name of YHWH for 'The Lord and God'.

“The priests did not say, ‘Where is YHWH?’ And those who handle the Torah did not know Me, and the shepherds transgressed against Me, and the prophets prophesied by Ba'al, and walked after matters that did not profit." Jer 2:8

This is the real question that was over looked.

Vision...I don't think that I caught all of what you are saying above...your writing was a bit jumbled and continuous...but if I get the main picture...

Both of you are referring to the same being as omnipresent.

If I gave that impression, that was not what I was going for. Jesus as man laid aside His godly attributes (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence), therefore He was not all-knowing while He walked the earth. As Fish pointed out in his post, Jesus did exercise certain attributes, but in my mind He was exercising the gifts of the Spirit which He had come to give to us through the New Covenant. Jesus didn't walk this earth as you and I do, He had the FULLNESS of the Spirit, where it is a struggle for you and I to walk in the Spirit even on a daily basis.

Part of Christ's mission was to demonstrate to us what the believer can do "in Him," that is, while one abides in the covenant relationship with God. He exercised casting out demons, healing the sick, words of knowledge, discernment of spirits...just about all of the gifts except speaking in tongues. Everything that Christ did we can do (John 14:12) as long as we remain abiding in Him (John 15:5).

My main point to Omar was that Jesus Christ was Yahweh God in the flesh. As far as your comment about pagan gods, the word god simply means deity...why the English bible translators choose to change the specific names and titles of Yahweh in the OT Scriptures is beyond me, but when Paul wrote the word translated as God in his writings, he used the Greek word theos (or one of its cognates), and theos means god. So...I don't have an answer for you there. All I know is that there is only one "god" and His personal proper name is Yahweh, His covenant name to His covenant people.

I am sure for many on this board, that when we say the word "God" we are referring to Yahweh, and He says in a number of places that there is no other god beside Him. It is probably tradition which keeps people using the term god...because, honestly, god is a generic term used for deity. We know that there is only ONE true deity, and so I don't think it bothers most of us to just say "God"...since we all agree who that one and true living God is.


Ok since Jesus was not able to show all the attributes in full as how YHWH would it therefore means that when we a referring to Jesus we are referring to Jesus and when we are referring to the Creator we are referring to the Creator YHWH as Jesus is not identified with creating or being omnipresent and other obvious attributes of YHWH not clearly seen in Jesus such as appearing in fire and so forth.

As you say the word god is generic which I am sure the source can be identified if we bother to check I will tell you that it does not simply mean deity and that the concept of deity did not exist in ancient times. You either had ruling authority or not and YHWH other characteristics than Just being ruler. Ruling had nothing to do with divine even thou YHWH is supernatural. Other supernatural essence were termed empty customs when people were praising passed rulers that died. The first command is" Thou shall not have other Rulers/Elohim above me" as the Hebrew word "Al" means above translated as before kind of implies that there should be no other elohim except him which was not the message but that he is the most high. The Greek word theos means most high as in Excellency or Emperor which why it was used to translate Elohim which is used the same way. The generic word god though does not bear the same meaning in character however gods were also worshiped presumed to be of supernatural essence not in relation to YHWH. This how it reached in translation to be applied universally for theos and all that ruled, not because it meant the same thing but the being or presence which it was referred to occupied a similar position.

To the contrary my friend---of course the Bible speaks of Jesus as the creator:

"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word" (Heb. 1:2,3)

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him". (Col. 1:15,16)
Theology Forum / Re: Clean and unclean...
« Last post by fish153 on Yesterday at 09:21:12 PM »
I don't have an answer for this one...but maybe one of you do?

Leviticus 11:41
"Every swarming thing that swarms on the ground is detestable; it shall not be eaten.

Yet we read here that...

Matthew 3:4
Now John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey.

I understand that locusts are "swarming things that swarm on the ground," so what gives here?

Does the wild honey stand for something that I do not yet recognize, which offsets the prohibition of eating locust? Or perhaps, since with the arrival of John the Baptist and the end of the Old Covenant era, this was God's way of giving a subtle hint to the coming change in Christ?

I don't know...how about you guys?


All we have to do is go back a few verses to get the answer:

“‘All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you. There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.  But all other flying insects that have four legs you are to regard as unclean". (leviticus 11:20-23)

It always helps to read an entire chapter and to keep everything in context.
Theology Forum / Re: IMO, our salvation is conditional upon several factors
« Last post by fish153 on Yesterday at 09:08:00 PM »
Jude 1:24 (KJV)
24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

So, you actually think this disqualifies all of the other verses which warn about falling away?
Dream on ...

Actually, the idea just hit me ...
He is able (obviously) to do anything, but He will not (which is not so obvious, right?).

It is necessary to see the difference between able and will.
Why don't we advise the Lord that He should have written what He really meant ...
Jude 1:24 (KJV)
24  Now unto him who will keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

You are translating the word "able" incorrectly.  There are many "He is able's" in the New Testament--check them out.  What it is saying is that No one else is ABLE to keep us from falling--only GOD. He is the one who is ABLE. It is not inferring God might not keep you from falling (what a horrible thing to lay on God's character)--but that He is the only one able to keep you from falling.

Here is another "He is able" verse:

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us", (Eph. 3:20)

Are we supposed to think "Oh, yeah, well, he is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think, but he most likely won't"--is that what the word "able" is there for?  No!  God is the one who is ABLE to do exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think----NO ONE ELSE CAN!  We can't--only God can!  Get off the negative soapbox John, and rejoice in all that God can and will do!
Theology Forum / Re: IMO, our salvation is conditional upon several factors
« Last post by fish153 on Yesterday at 09:05:49 PM »

I have a more important question, one that will answer this once and for all.  Who is the party that is responsible for keeping us in Christ.  Is it God or is it ourselves?  If we are the responsible party, like you claim, then you are absolutely right.  If we waver in that responsibility, then our salvation is in danger of being lost.  If God is the responsibility, then we can rest in His assurance because we know He will never waver.  However this question is answered will answer the question of eternal security.

So what does the bible say concerning this question?  Let's look.

2 Cor 1:21-22 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you to stand firm in Christ. He annointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing  what is to come. 

Who is the responsible party?   God is.
Who annoints us ?  God does.
Who owns us ?  God does.
Who set his seal on us?  God does.
Who puts his Spirit in us?  God does.
What is the Spirit's application? A deposit.
What does the deposit's function?  To guarantee what is to come.
Who makes the guarantee? God does.

How long does the seal lasts?  Until the day of redemption.  Eph 4:30

So......  My salvation is secure not because of how I act or what I do, my salvation is secure because it is based on Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, and on the fact that I am sealed with His Spirit.  And God guarantees to bring me to the day of redemption.

So if this is true, then why all the warnings?  Because God wants whats best for us.  Our sins affect us in many different ways, all of them negative, both in this life and the one to come.  Just because Jesus paid for all of our sins on the cross, does not mean that our sins can't affect us.  It can affect our families.  It can destroy our testimony, and it can affect our relationship with God. 

But just because we allow our sins to take us out of fellowship with God, does not mean that God revokes our seal of ownership.  He is still faithful.

2 Tim 2:13  if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Joshua David

What a breath of fresh air!  God bless you!
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In 1994, I had a baby boy born with Spina Bifida. If only I had known about taking Folic Acid at the time, who knows if he would have had the defect or not...
Theology Forum / Re: Salvation is by???
« Last post by Dougie56 on Yesterday at 09:03:06 PM »
The Holy Spirit always was in play,the gentiles were allowed into Isreal as proselytes and the word without the Spirit will not save.
Theology Forum / Re: The Folded Up Face Cloth
« Last post by Reformer on Yesterday at 08:54:18 PM »
I read once, several years ago, that the commonly held belief about the folded linen napkin was that if it was neatly folded that it meant the person to whom it belonged was going to return. And return Jesus did.

In no way am I disagreeing with Dave W's post. This is just another point of view to consider.

Others expressed your view, too. Thanks for your input.

Theology Forum / Re: Food for Thought
« Last post by hap on Yesterday at 08:52:38 PM »
Where is Enoch?

Genesis 5:24 KJV
[24] And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

He can't be in heaven Jesus said no man has ascended to heaven.
Theology Forum / Re: The Free Gift of Salvation
« Last post by Dougie56 on Yesterday at 08:46:14 PM »
Fish,both it started in fear first just as I feared my earthly father when I was in the wrong,but deep inside I know its for my good and that God loves me and wants me too live and also wants my love,if I choose to turn my back on Him and fulfill the lust of the flesh then I cannot have faith in that love without He gives me repentence to turn back to Him again.I don't believe because a person is saved that he is not capable of turning from the Lord this may not be true of every person and mabe not even for most but may be the exception for some who really knows but God.I know some say that if one turns away he was never saved to start with but how do we really know?not anymore than we know if its possible no one can ever be lost again either.Personally I believe God is very long suffering and will do all he can to save all.But I don't believe He will violate freewill.Personally I believe we all are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,born saved and that in fact the blood of Jesus covers us all in our ignorance and this is in line with scripture concerning the atonement,and then at some point in time we are all called into account by God to receive the power of eternal life into them,and for many it takes hold of them and they never look back,but not for all.A good example is the parable of the seed not all fell in good places and produced or even lived,but who is to say if these were not saved or not?I believe Judas was numbered with the twelve and was received of the Lord just as the others and the Spirit of God was with him as the others and was even sent out to minister with them,yet the scriptures say that it would have been better that man to have never been born.What Im saying I love God but also know Im a created being and I have an enemy bent on my destruction because he hates God,Im also a free agent and reserve the right to walk away from God,turn to the power of satan again with my only way to life is God allowing me to come back to Him,how far do I want to test this?If one is in sin he is under the bondage of the power of satan and death no matter how saved he thinks he might be.
Theology Forum / Re: Food for Thought
« Last post by hap on Yesterday at 08:35:00 PM »
If all of Jesus rose, why do we teach at funerals that our spirits rise and the body stays?

When Lazarus died all of him came forth not down

John 11:1,11,14,21,23-25,34,38-39,42-43 KJV
[1] Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. [11] These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. [14] Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. [21] Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. [23] Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. [24] Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. [25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: [34] And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. [38] Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. [39] Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. [42] And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it , that they may believe that thou hast sent me. [43] And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
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