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End Times Forum / Re: Answer to 2300 days.
« Last post by Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 04:27:43 PM »
Interesting post, Doug.  I don't think I agree. 

First, note that the New Testament writers and early church appear to have used and relied on the LXX more than any other translation.  Essentially, the LXX has the endorsement of Matthew, Luke, and Paul.  That's a pretty good endorsement, if you're asking me.

Second, the Dead Sea scrolls.  They date from roughly 300BC - 100AD, making them contemporary to the LXX by any measure.  They're primarily written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and clearly in Israel, not Egypt.  I know of nobody has come out with any papers showing how they are markedly different in content from the LXX.  This despite a number of noted differences from the later Masoretic Hebrew text.  Maybe you have another source?

Even though the Letter of Aristeas is legend and fiction, it is clear that its purpose was to promote the authority of the LXX over the original Hebrew and other translations.
I've read that it was primarily written to a Gentile audience, with an evangelistic goal in mind.  Note that Jewish proselytizing of Gentiles was very popular in this time period.

Non-Traditional Theology / Re: Anti-Semitism
« Last post by Julabee Jones on Yesterday at 04:21:35 PM »
If the church were to be folded into Israel, we would be keeping the law...

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Acts 3:22-23.

And God said, of THAT PROPHET on the Mount of Transfiguration, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; HEAR YE HIM." Matt 17:5...Moses and the Mt. Sinai were what? They were figures, foreshadowing Jesus on Mt. Sinai, foreshadowing the giving of the New Testament, the New Covenant. Moses was the figure, the shadow, the precursor of THAT PROPHET...

And of whom he said those who do not hear Him, who do not hear THAT PROPHET shall be 'destroyed from among the people'.

Do you see that? Do you see what I see? I see that there, 'destroyed from among the people' is today's national Israel, and including the many thousands, perhaps millions of Jews who have been destroyed since the day they crucified God's truly Chosen one.

If Israel remains today, with the church folded in, where then is the High Priest? Oh yes, that is Jesus, THAT PROPHET, the exact same one the Israel of that day crucified.

The one whose High Priest-hood fulfilled and utterly did away with the law, since,

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Heb 7:12

And what imprimatur from God does this fact possess? It is that it is one of two 'Immutable' things, two bits of reality in which God cannot lie,

"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Hebrews 6:18-20.

What are those two immutable things? Things even God cannot lie about? They are 1) the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. And incidental to that, the establishment of a new priesthood, the priesthood of the believer, the believers who carry and bear every element of priesthood in all it's glory. And by extension, the dissolution in its entirety of the Levitical Priesthood.

For, "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ". 1 Peter 2:5, and,

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

And 2) the fulfilling, in its entirety, of the law. "For Christ IS THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth" Rom 10:4.

Tell me...would you continue to make payments on the car you just finished making payments on? I didn't think so...no more do we continue to keep the law, for it has been fulfilled, every single payment made and the covenant stamped "fulfilled".

Who is He speaking of when He says, "...which is time past were not a people"? Is he talking about a people to whom he says, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51?

Or is he talking about the Gentiles? who are now, in the Jesus Christ Israel refused to accept, a people who "...but now have obtained mercy?"

And you think you can get Israel out of that? Israel is in that...in that Body, in that Church, but only insofar as that Israel fully accepts Jesus Christ, and does not refuse His primacy nor refute His priesthood.

And so I ask, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" Romans 11:7-12.

That is your National Israel today. And they are certainly continuing to fulfill many of their prophetic legacies,

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof. " Isa 6:-13...That is your National Israel today.

But the most important truth about National Israel of today is that they have, "...been destroyed from among the people" Acts 3:23, and are in God's eyes no longer Israel.

But the Israel of God, today, is found bound up in and part and parcel of the Church.

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Eph 2:14-22.

There is the Israel of God. Note it is naught but the Church of Jesus Christ, into which believing Israel has been joined. That our of two, Gentiles and Jews, there made be ONE. And note that in order to be the Israel of God, those Jews who believed found it necessary that THEY COME TO JESUS and become Christians, NOT that Gentiles had to come to Israel in order to be saved.

I am personally, a member of the Israel of God. I am a child of Abraham by faith, just as are the bloodied children of Israel wrapped into the church.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28-29.

There is still a place for National Israel. And that is in repentance and believing in the only begotten Son of God...

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Rom 11:23-32...

For National Israel, there are but two choices...continue to serve as Antichrist on this planet and receive the just rewards of their deeds (as they've done for two thousands of years)...

or come to Jesus and be grafted into that tree...That tree planted by God alone, for remember,

"Every plant which my Heavenly Father hath not planted...shall be ROOTED UP" Matt 15:13.

God bless you!

I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones

Theology Forum / Re: So why do you think some churches are...
« Last post by Willie T on Yesterday at 04:16:16 PM »
I'm still sitting here wondering why you guys are saying God sinned. 

You have made it clear that to "repent", you believe you have to quit sinning, or "turn from" your sins.  Yet there is no escaping the fact that the Bible says God "repented" on more than one occasion.
Theology Forum / Re: So why do you think some churches are...
« Last post by Willie T on Yesterday at 04:12:30 PM »
Si when did those 300O repent? Before or after Peter instructed them to repent? They definitely changed their thinking about Christ just prior to asking "what must we do?"
No, the way it reads, they realized they had really fouled up, and were in trouble, and they asked a question of Peter.... "What must we do" (to get out of this fix).  They were scared for their skins, they had not come to believe in Christ as their redeemer yet.

All they knew was that this guy, Peter, said they had killed a man who God subsequently made their judge and possibly executioner.   And they wanted to be told what to now do about that blunder.
Catholic Forum / Re: Why would anyone become Catholic?
« Last post by lonegreywolf20 on Yesterday at 03:47:32 PM »
kensington said, "To imply that my husband is not saved."

No worries kensington, your husband would be in the same boat that I am. That according to the Catholic church, our salvation is at risk because we have renounced the church and no longer consider ourselves Catholic, or any of the other things that are required of Catholics, at least according to Catholic man made rules.

Just remember, the Bible states otherwise. We have believed, and made Jesus our Lord and our savior and are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Theology Forum / Re: So why do you think some churches are...
« Last post by Jaime on Yesterday at 03:37:31 PM »
TS, nudging may be the wrong word, but I certainly have felt the Spirit's nudging in certain circumstances in my life. I agree God will not force us into anything, but I do believe as our conscience matures in the Spirit, we are prompted, if you will. I am a big free will advocate and do believe God gives us the free will to resist Him. We are not robots, just as Adam and Eve were not. Might not be the best explanation, but it's the best I have at the moment.
Theology Forum / Re: So why do you think some churches are...
« Last post by TruthScientist on Yesterday at 03:32:19 PM »
NR, I am not a scholar of Campbell, and I do believe the Holy Spirit leads us, as does most of the folks in our congregation. I do believe the Holy spirit does reveal things to us from the written word, but I believe we are nudged and lead by the Spirit daily. I certainly can't walk with Christ by my own wit, which was the point afterall of the Helper Jesus promised.

As I have told you many times my congregation is pretty much on the outs with most conservative cofc's throughout the country. I have pretty much the disdain you have for the ultra conservatives in our tribe.

what does nudging mean...  just don't want people to leave this thread thinking that Holy Spirit makes us do anything. 

Satan cannot force the will, and God will not. Indeed it would cease to be will were it forced by either: it is essential to its being that it be free.  Read Romans 6...
Theology Forum / Re: God actually chooses who will be drawn to Jesus.
« Last post by TruthScientist on Yesterday at 03:25:36 PM »
How do you get into the covenant?
We are chosen by the will of God to be included in the new covenant~a covenant secured by the promises of God;  promises of grace for the children of his promises, through the obedience and death of his Son, Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:13-10:39; Galatians 2:16-4:31, etc.
thank you RB...

And how do you know if you are "... chosen by the will of God to be included in the new covenant..." or not?

Maybe you think you are; only to find out at the end that in reality you are not.

surely you know if you believe in the blood of Jesus, God certainly does...  if one never seeks to know Him according to His word I am sure that they probably will not have steadfast assurance...
Non-Traditional Theology / Re: Anti-Semitism
« Last post by notreligus on Yesterday at 03:11:01 PM »
Both terms 'supersessionisn' and 'replacement theology' are cast in such a way as to put down those who are aware that Israel was folded into the church...

Actually it is the OTHER WAY AROUND.  We do not have Israel folded into us - we are folded into Israel.

Who (gentile church or physical Israel) is the root of the tree in Romans 11?

Hint:  Rom 11.18b remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Christ is true Israel.   He is the offspring promised to come as an answer of the promise to Abraham.   Israel was "chosen" because the Savior of the world came through them. 

You're pointing to flesh, the wrong support.   

I believe the context of Romans Eleven is that Paul hoped that Jews would eventually turn to Christ and do so in great numbers.   The believing Remnant shows that God did not kick them to the curb but made them part of the Body of Christ.   What does John 3:16 tell us?   Did Christ love the nation of Israel only so much that He gave His only Son?  Take out the word "only" and that's true.   But the New Covenant is not "only" Israel's.   

Also, when you discuss this go on to the rest of the story which includes the belief that there will be a restored Levitical priesthood which will replace Christ's own priesthood.  He is God!  Are Jewish priests higher than Him?    Must He, too, step down and be subject to the Law when He has already fulfilled it?   The Book of Hebrews does not support general claims you have made in this forum. 

I don't want to make this a you vs. me thing.   You are not alone in your beliefs about Israel, but I have to protest when statements are made which are in opposition to what Paul taught about the Body of Christ.    The Bible is proof that many Jews in the Way fought against Paul and his efforts with what Christ had revealed to him concerning the Body of Christ.   Covenantal Nomism is not a right argument to use against what Christ accomplished on the cross to restore a right relationship between mankind and God Almighty.   
Theology Forum / Re: So why do you think some churches are...
« Last post by Jaime on Yesterday at 02:59:58 PM »
NR, I am not a scholar of Campbell, and I do believe the Holy Spirit leads us, as does most of the folks in our congregation. I do believe the Holy spirit does reveal things to us from the written word, but I believe we are nudged and lead by the Spirit daily. I certainly can't walk with Christ by my own wit, which was the point afterall of the Helper Jesus promised.

As I have told you many times my congregation is pretty much on the outs with most conservative cofc's throughout the country. I have pretty much the disdain you have for the ultra conservatives in our tribe.

As to Campbell's and Calvin's fallibility, yes they are both fallible. I'm sure I could find much to disagree with Campbell as I do with Calvin or any other man. I do not consider myself a Campbellite, but I'm sure that label has been thrown my way. I have been told by many locally and a few at GCM that our congregation seems more like a Baptist church in ways than it does a cofc. A lot of other cofc's would agree with that.
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