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31
Catholic Forum / Re: Angels !
« Last post by wincam on Today at 10:40:11 AM »
WHy would you take any notice of what an icon portrays?


simply because because it shows what early Christians accepted and believed - before the wise ones came along later on - wincam


so can we pardon Abraham for getting it wrong three angels in the guise of men without wings that he bowed down and adored as at Gen..18 - wincam

As long as you realise they arent always biblically inspired.
32
Christian Politics Forum / Re: How many examples does it take?
« Last post by Jaime on Today at 10:39:51 AM »
TS, I value your opinions on this especially from your perspective as a black Christian American of an age that has gone through a lot of the racial injustice in the past. What specific steps would you recommend in quieting this strife? Everyone agrees we are on a dangerous path. It seems to me that the failure of inner city schools is central to the problem in spite of most inner city school systems being on the top of the list of money spent per student. Even public schools in white middle class enclaves are a failure to those students. I would think if we empowered mothers like the one who hit the streets in Baltimore and slapped her kid up side the head for being involved, with the ability to take their kid out of that environment, it would give good parents hope. Of course we need way more good parents!

What would need to be done to encourage dads in the inner city to stay with their families. That seems to be looming larger that a lot of problems.

the timing is bad to fix the issues...  a lot is perception...  there is misinformation on all sides that needs correcting...  there is deep rooted distrust between many whites and blacks...  it has historical elements that are still being perpetuated by both sides...  most whites don't want to go beyond 1960 when they think blacks were given equality...  that was the legal perimeters, the psychological goes all the way back and the problem is that it was predicated on lies, fear and superstition...  it was not difficult to believe that white men are the devil when you saw what he was doing to you from 1600 till the late 60s.  some white still believe we have a bump on our butt where the tail fell off.  can you imagine being a young white lad growing up hearing how blacks were animals and could not learn or do anything meaningful and now he is seeing this and wondering what the hell. 

im sure you will brush this off but the psychology of the race issue has to be the beginning...   

I have no doubt that other countries look at America's race issues and laugh at us and say that this is what will bring us down...  they see it from a different perspective than we do... 

but if we have any chance it will have to start with the mind (imagination)...  that is where the poison is administered...

I intend to NOT brush off your comments. I think they are valid. I would just like to hear some very specific ideas of how to CHANGE the psychology you pointed out. Also from a white perspective, it seems that generationally speaking, racism IS getting better. I no longer see the same characterizations I used to see and hear with my grandparents and parents. My kids and grandkids are way more "race tolerant" than me, and certainly way way more race tolerant than my grandparents. BUT with the ongoing stirring of the pot by some not so well intentioned pot stirrers, the wound never gets a chance to heal.

33
Catholic Forum / Re: millions of years ago !
« Last post by 4WD on Today at 10:37:52 AM »
with an expanding/stretched out universe and a shrinking sun, millions of years ago the sun would have been larger, hotter and nearer the earth = scalding steam and dust and ashes = no evolution possible - any comments - wincam

What makes you think that the sun would have been nearer the earth millions of years ago?  Bodies in motion tend to reach an equilibrium in the absence of friction or external forces in time.  The idea that the universe is expanding wouldn't necessitate that the earth would be closer to the sun millions of years ago.


oh yeah ! and a big bang would be a silent big bang especially since there was nothing to bang but this nothing turned into everything and Dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago and even tried to fly and crashed and became extinct or birds - daft I call it - but mere shrinkage at 3 to 5 feet an hour would be enough even if expansion is not really expansion - wincam

You are not interested in learning about anything. Rather you are interested in trashing [out of sheer ignorance] what you obviously do not understand and/or do not want to believe.
34
Catholic Forum / Re: Angels !
« Last post by AVZ on Today at 10:35:40 AM »
WHy would you take any notice of what an icon portrays?


simply because because it shows what early Christians accepted and believed - before the wise ones came along later on - wincam

Icons also show people with golden rings floating above their heads.
Do you think early Christians accepted and believed the apostles walked around with halo's over their heads?
35
Catholic Forum / Re: Angels !
« Last post by DaveW on Today at 10:34:48 AM »
Angels are portrayed as having wings, for example, in the Old Testament book of Ezekiel.  But angels are not physical beings.  They have no need of wings in the physical realm as they do not have physical bodies.  But perhaps God had a theological reading to portray them to us this way.  Of that, I am not sure.

How do we know they are not physical beings?

The angel that wrestled with Jacob seemed physical enough. An angel in Revelation stands on the land and the sea. 

There are many classes of angels shown in scripture.  Arch angels, seraphs, cherubs, etc. Some are indistinguishable from humans; while others look very different. (wings, multiple compound eyes, etc)
36
Catholic Forum / Re: INFALLIBILITY !?
« Last post by wincam on Today at 10:31:42 AM »
I am not suggesting anything that is not so - that that it is neither correctly understood by, it seems, most Catholics and Protestants is one of the causes of the bitter and sad division - btw wincam knows this and he is not even infallible   

Yes, you are.  You are suggesting that the Pope and the Magisterium are not infallible.  Maybe you worded your question wrong.  You listed four and you said that only one is infallible.  Is that what you believe?


even the first Pope had to discovered that flesh and blood cannot reveal certainity but only God can - no Pope of himself is infallible all the time but only ex cathedra via revelation by the Holy Ghost and no magisterium either except that God is finally where two or three or more are gathered together in His name - other than this some Popes and Bishops have made some awful blunders and mistakes and have even contradicted one another imho - wincam
37
Theology Forum / Re: What is the gift of the Holy Spirit?......
« Last post by AVZ on Today at 10:29:30 AM »
Yes lot of human reasoning on this but somewhere there must be truth so if it is not recorded in Acts 2:38 as it says that the spirit is given somewhere in repenting and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ I am not sure we will ever come to the truth.

I mean lets get real with this human reasoning. In Acts 2:38 it clearly states that one is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Then one SHALL receive the indwelling. It does not put it any other way but first repent and baptized then receive not receive then repent and be baptized.

So to come to the truth as it was recorded it seems that the most logical reasoning would be to accept the truth that it says to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin so that we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost that being the indwelling spirit.

So what say you?

Yet Ephesians 1:13 states " In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,...."

No mentioning of baptism here.
38
Catholic Forum / Re: Angels !
« Last post by chosenone on Today at 10:25:28 AM »
WHy would you take any notice of what an icon portrays?


simply because because it shows what early Christians accepted and believed - before the wise ones came along later on - wincam

As long as you realise they arent always biblically inspired.
39
Catholic Forum / Re: millions of years ago !
« Last post by skeeter on Today at 10:24:42 AM »
no
40
Theology Forum / Re: Does God talk to you?
« Last post by doorknocker on Today at 10:19:51 AM »
Interesting interpretation of 1 Peter 1,  8.....having not seen....that it includes not hearing.....wow, and this is what you base God not speaking to us today, interesting.

I never said that I based my whole understanding upon this scripture~I only gave one of many examples how toward the end of the apostles' era, how such extraordinary acts of God begin to cease.  I said:

Quote
Peter commends certain saints toward the end of the NT apostles' era for their love of Jesus, yet having not seen Jesus, and that would include, not hearing his voice personally, or, the commendation would have not have been a point of praising them for their love of Jesus Christ, having never seen him.

As I have so many times mentioned before, that we have in the written word of God, a more sure word of prophecy, that supposedly voices from heaven, are less than the scriptures themselves, and is equal to the very voice of God Himself, based upon Peter's words to us.  So, if this is not so, than take issue with Peter, not me. 

Quote
2 Peter 1:16-21~"For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.  And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

The voice that Peter heard was indeed the voice of God, YET, Peter informs us that the scriptures themselves are more sure than THAT VOICE he heard. The best Peter could do is to give a testimony of what he saw and heard, when speaking of this event~yet the scriptures were written by men (like Peter) as they were moved by the Spirit of God; and then those words were chosen of God to be part of his written revelation to his people. 

Bottom line~those men and women who trust the scriptures above all else, have a greater foundation, and source for their faith than anyone, regardless of their so called religious experiences, that cannot not be sustained by the scriptures themselves. 

You quote John 16:13, and then said:
Quote
Here it declares that He will speak to us.

Where? Let us see what this scriptures DOES say:
Quote
John 16:13~"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

John said that the Spirit "will guide us into all truth"~ Truth that is necessary to be known from the scriptures, and that is useful to men, even the whole counsel of God; truth that relates to worship, the nature, form, and spirituality of it, as well as doctrine. The Spirit of God is as a guide, he goes before, leads the way, removes obstructions, opens the understanding, makes things plain and clear, teaches to profit, and leads in the way men should go, without turning to the right hand or left, which, without such a guide, we could not know what truth is, but with his guidance we can and do know.

"For he shall not speak of himself"~ This is a excellent point to observe, since it will expose false prophets who lift themselves up by claiming power to perform miracles, and claiming extra-biblical experiences that cannot be supported by the scriptures, yet they labor to convince others of their claims. 

"But whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak"~ The Spirit of God reveals things to the children of Jesus Christ, that which was agreed upon in the covenant of grace by the Godhead. Those to whom this revelation comes to, speaks the truth from the word of God, as it is revealed to them.   This scripture is very closely related to:
Quote
John 15:15~"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."

No where in these two scriptures can you prove that God speaks directly and audibly to people in this present dispensation~yet you gave this scripture as a proof text.  What words in John 16:13, proves what you desire for them to say?  I'll be waiting.


2 Peter 1,  15-19
And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ,  but we were eyewitnesses of His Majesty.  For when He received honor and glory from God the
Father and the voice was borne to Him by the Majestic Glory,   "This is My beloved Son,  with whom I am well
pleased,"  we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with Him on the holy mountain.
And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in
a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.


The way I understand this is that Peter states that through the testimony of God's voice from heaven,  the prophetic
word has been made more sure. (strengthened)


John 16,  13-15
When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but
whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify Me, for He
will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that He will take what is
mine and declare it to you.

Seems very straight forward to me,  and to make it say that the Spirit does not speak to us, well you got me speechless.

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