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Anyone who is a Christian will not convert to atheism. First of all, if you are a Christian, then Christ has already proven Himself to you.
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Theology Forum / Re: Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration
« Last post by DaveW on Today at 08:02:11 AM »
Baptism in the Spirit comes (in the instances actually called that in the NT) with supernatural signs - most distinctly prophecy. (see Acts 2 and Joel 2)
Seeing that not all believers receive the same gifts, how do you explain the believer Baptized with the Holy Spirit that does not receive a gift of languages, miracles, et cetera.  Poor argument.

Easy.  Not all believers are baptized in the Spirit.  They can be, but as it is a seperate act of God, not everyone is open to it or receives it.

Quote
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John 14:16-17
Where is this called "baptism in the Spirit?" It is NOT called that. He was talking about a seperate issue.  Notice the wording in verse 17: "shall be IN you." That is Spirit Within and NOT the Baptism in the Spirit which is Spirit Upon.

And it is this kind of position that I can do nothing about.

To deny that the Promise of the Father spoken of by the Lord here is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit will leave you in a holding pattern in which erroneous doctrine such as Baptismal Regeneration.

No - regeneration is Spirit Indwelling - NOT Baptism in the Holy Spirit which as I have said here xxx times is SPIRIT UPON, NOT WITHIN. 
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Theology Forum / Re: Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration
« Last post by S.T. Ranger on Today at 08:01:56 AM »
Ephesians 4:4–6 4 There is one body and one Spirit,a just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

We are being told that despite Jesus himself linking baptism to be saved that it isn't linked. However a number of posters are insisting that there is two Christian baptisms despite the NT clearly saying there is one. Note there is not another item in that list that people would generally see there being two of.

So what are options....


1) There is one baptism because Paul is seeing water and spirit baptims as one "baptism" here.
2) There is only one baptism at the time of writting as "spirit baptism" had occurred at two specific occasions and only now no longer occurred.
3) There is no longer water baptism by this stage and spirit baptism is the one baptism (of which there is at least one advocate on this forum but it is a very minority view, as we know certainly that the 2nd century church water baptised.)
4) This is another verse where the obvious meaning is wrong
5) Paul just got it wrong here (which I hope no one holds)

Just posted this because there seemed to be a number of posters asserting two baptism despite scripture saying there was one.

There is a division of which Baptism is in view here, and to be honest, I don't see it as an issue that changes the thrust of what Paul says:


Ephesians 4:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



Is not the indwelling Spirit the primary point we can take from Paul's statement?

He goes on to say, after discussing our conduct as those that are one...


Ephesians 4:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.




God bless.
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I have been reading different translations of the Bible and notice that some translations, instead of saying "The Lord" it may say "Jehovah" or "Yahweh". What are the differences in these translations? Why use different words other than "The Lord"?
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Theology Forum / Re: Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration
« Last post by S.T. Ranger on Today at 07:57:06 AM »
No, the Baptism with the Spirit of God is immersion into God which takes place when the believer is indwelled.

Baptism in the Spirit comes (in the instances actually called that in the NT) with supernatural signs - most distinctly prophecy. (see Acts 2 and Joel 2)

Seeing that not all believers receive the same gifts, how do you explain the believer Baptized with the Holy Spirit that does not receive a gift of languages, miracles, et cetera.

Poor argument.


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John 14:16-17

Where is this called "baptism in the Spirit?" It is NOT called that. He was talking about a seperate issue.  Notice the wording in verse 17: "shall be IN you." That is Spirit Within and NOT the Baptism in the Spirit which is Spirit Upon.

And it is this kind of position that I can do nothing about.

To deny that the Promise of the Father spoken of by the Lord here is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit will leave you in a holding pattern in which erroneous doctrine such as Baptismal Regeneration.

You can infer water baptism in Romans 6, but deny that the Lord is speaking about the Baptism which John the Baptist speaks.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is Spirit within, and I have given many posts that speak about this, but you, and your fellows, ignore those posts, refuse to address them, then start up with the same tired arguments, never coming to an understanding of the promises of God as found in the Old Testament.

You ignore that promise which can be traced through Scripture:


Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Note the cleansing is with pure water, and that performed by God (I will)...not water baptism.


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Luke 24:49

King James Version (KJV)

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.




Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Galatians 3:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Ephesians 1:13-14


King James Version (KJV)

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.




That the indwelling of God is that Promise seems very clear.

That this promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost seems to be clear as well.

That He had not come yet can be seen in Acts 1 (above) and we see in this event...


Acts 8:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.



...that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is equated to the Holy Spirit "falling upon them," for they had not received the Holy Spirit and this baptism is contrasted with the Baptism of John.

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Where is this called "baptism in the Spirit?"

It is described in many places. You can start with the above.


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Acts 8:14-17

Note the wording: "fallen on." That is NOT indwelling. They were already saved and had "Spirit Within."

See Acts 8 above...they were baptized unto John only, and they had not yet received the Spirit.

You can't deny Scripture.


Remember the wording is very important to distinguish between Upon and Within.

I agree. That is why I dealt with the confused manner in which you tried very hard to make the distinction, but failed.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is salvation and the Baptism with fire is judgment.

At least, I think it was you that did that, lol.

That the Baptism with the Spirit is that Baptism by which we are supernaturally placed into the Body of Christ seems like a very simple teaching to grasp. The only thing that could hinder is the desire to cling to doctrine which would be upset by recognizing this.


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John 3

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The Lord distinguishes between being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit.

Physical birth is not what He is speaking of. It would make little sense to say "One must be physically born as well as spiritually born from above," for we would not speculate about people who had not been born being born from above.

Again, pay attention to the wording.  There is here what some theologians call a "semitism" which is a play on words used in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic.  In this case it is a parallelism.

That's great. Now go and learn that parallelism can also contrast two issues or subjects.

That is what is being done here.


The parallel phrases are "born of water and of the spirit" and "born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Here is the "wording," lol...


John 3:3-6

King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Not only is physical birth not in view...Nicodemus does not even mention physical birth, he mentions a second physical birth.

Understand?

The Lord in no way acknowledges Nicodemus' statement as correct, but with His response makes it clear that the "birth" in view is entirely spiritual, performed by God, and invisible to the human eye.

That cannot be said of human birth.

Note emphasis in v.6: are you saying that the New Birth has to do with flesh?

You are, whether you know it or not.

But as I mentioned in previous posts...our physical redemption does not take place at the time of our conversion, that yet awaits a future fulfillment.

It is preposterous to imply human birth in this.


So 'water' is lined up with 'born of flesh' and 'Spirit' with 'born of Spirit.'  That means the water is the natural water of childbirth.

Sorry, no.

There is no physical attributes to the New Birth and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, both of which comprise salvation in Christ as promised by God in the Old Testament.


God bless.
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Theology Forum / Re: Salvation for all of mankind; may we hope?
« Last post by DaveW on Today at 07:56:23 AM »
Quote from: soterion
Quote from: notreligus
Romans 11:26  And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"

Some the same folk who deny universalism change their tune when it comes to Israel and they interpret "all" in the above to be literally true that all Israelites will be saved.
I am not one of those folk. ::smile::

P.S. Believing that all Israelites will be saved is not a change in tune from not believing every person will be saved. Believing all Israelites will be saved does not require a person to be a Universalist.
So how might they be saved and when? Did/do they all enter through the narrow gate in their lifetime?

I do not take that in the past tense but in the future tense.  Those Jews who are alive when that day comes will ALL repent and "enter through the narrow gate."
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Apologetics Forum / Re: What are some Bible verses dealing with divorce?
« Last post by DaveW on Today at 07:50:59 AM »
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So, as there has been no indication of her stepping out on him, and he swears he never did on her, is he wrong?

yes. 

I think they both need a new Counselor.
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Theology Forum / Re: Salvation for all of mankind; may we hope?
« Last post by soterion on Today at 07:47:23 AM »
But, since you're not one of those folks, what then is your interpretation of the verse Romans 11:26?

In this context Paul is speaking to Gentiles who had a certain attitude of glorying over the Jews. They had this attitude because the unbelief of many of the Jews led to the gospel being taken to the Gentiles instead of just to the Jews. He wants these Gentiles to know that God has not forgotten nor forsaken the Jews.

Romans 11:25-32 is not referring to some mass salvation being given to every single Jew, but rather is referring to something that began in the 1st century, and continues until now. I see a gradual grafting in over time, due to the preaching of the gospel. I see Paul as referring to God's saving work for the cut off Jews through gospel preaching (v.25) resulting in the salvation of all who believe (v.26). All who have faith will be saved. That is, of course, true for the Gentiles as well.

This would, as I understand it, exclude the unbelieving Jew from being counted among "all Israel". The Roman Gentile should not revel in the fact of Jewish unbelief, as if God loves him and hates the Jew. God loves all and wants all saved, and so He will save all true Israelites (believing Jews) just as He saves all believing Gentiles.
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Apologetics Forum / Re: What are some Bible verses dealing with divorce?
« Last post by gigman7 on Today at 07:34:46 AM »
and, what ever it is, work it out.

I am not married but I do have a male friend who is going through a nasty divorce.

Married 34 years, and she decided he did not love her anymore.

She has been to counseling, and she and her counselor decided he was not wanted to be included in their sessions.

He then got his own counselor, who ultimately told him to give it to God for guidance.

He did and that is where things stand.

The divorce is being mediated and will be final at some point.
This is because he believes this is the direction that God has led him.

So, as there has been no indication of her stepping out on him, and he swears he never did on her, is he wrong?




 Where does God say that if we fall 'out of love' we can divorce our spouses? God cant be leading him out of the marriage because He doesnt go back on His word, and unless there has been sexual immorality or serious abuse of some sort, there is no Biblical reason to end his marriage.
Of course he has probably convinced himself that its what God wants, because its what HE wants. Does he realise that he has no reason to end it? Has he spoken to his pastor? Does he also realise that most people would say he wont be biblically allowed to marry again?
AMEN!!   ::applause::
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Theology Forum / Re: Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration
« Last post by DaveW on Today at 07:27:23 AM »
...and not only does it not say this, but we have many passages that deny water baptism as salvific.

Many passages which you and your fellows have refused to address.
Hold it! What passages actually deny water baptism as salvific?

To deny would have to mean the passage explicitly says, in some way, no to baptism. If you are referring to passages that just do not mention it, then that is not a denial of it. Not every passage says "by faith," not every passage says "by His blood," not every passage says "by grace," etc. Most everybody knows to take all such passages together to gain a more complete understanding about our salvation.

No, a denial has to be a specific rejection of it.

They call it a "denial" by adding that elusive "only" to the text.  If it really were there, then it would qualify as a denial; but since it is NOT there .....
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