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41
Theology Forum / Re: Another question about hell
« Last post by Thaddaeus on Yesterday at 03:25:51 PM »
Rella,

Quote
Now, if the soul of man never dies... and Old Testament death of the disobedient meant ceasing to exist, and no possibility of immortality what about their souls? Where would they be OR did they not have any?

I explained that but you may have missed that I gave it from two different observations, from man and from God.  Man is a created creature. Will always be a created creature.  We attain immortality only through grace. God knew from the beginning that man would sin and be condemned to death. That is why from His vantage point, the would never dies and thus is the OT the soul lives on but in Hades for everyone.

Quote
I have been taught we are spirits, with a soul, living in a body.  I have also been taught that when we die our souls leave the body to be with the Lord. Is that not correct?
We are human beings that possess both body and soul.  We are not spirits, never will be. Yes, when we die, those IN Christ are with Him in paradise (heaven) and those who die separated from him will be in hell.

Quote
#2. It is after Jesus came to earth and through his life and crucifixion that eternal life came into being and that in eternity one would either live with Christ in eternity, or live without him ... presumably in hell.
eternal life existed for Adam but he lost that status because of his sin and consequent death.  Christ restored eternal life to mankind, the world and man will determine where he spends that eternity, with God or apart from Him.

Quote
It is also only those that God initially draws that can come to Jesus...

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

This is very confusing cause we are told God draws people to Jesus... but not everyone.
not really. God draws everyone is true. Not a single human being will not be called by God.  But being called does not mean all are granted heaven. Man determines by his choice to first be united with Him, and then by choice to love and obey Him and when one is faithful, will inherit eternal life with Christ.

Quote
This has to mean God intends those he does not draw to Jesus to end up in hell? (Otherwise he would draw all and those that reject
made their own choice ... but seems as if some have no option.
no man is left out. Not a single human being will ever have an exuse that they either did not know God or was not given the opportunity to know God.

Quote
#3. Also, there is no rapture as is a common subject matter these days?
If you mean by that the dispensational concepts and premillenialism the answer is no.

42
Theology Forum / Re: Another question about hell
« Last post by Rella on Yesterday at 03:04:59 PM »
Rella,



Your post is a rambling of a lot of points that never seem to create a stream of understanding.

However, God did have a plan.  He knew from the foundations what would happen and by whom.  He provided all the mechanisms that you allude to but probably not in the way you understand.

From man's perspective and from scripture, we know that man was created in God's image in order to share with Him communion which would be exercised within the confines of a creation.  Creation, the world was created first. Man was created last because man would be the central and integral part of that creation. The world was given to man as gift to use within the union that man would have with God in worship, praise and thanksgiving and bring both himself and the world as a living sacrifice back to God.

A huge part of man is that man is free. Man is an independent creature, possesses free will.  Man would not be able to perform the obligations of his existence without being free to give love. Thus God set before him a commandment regarding the trees in the garden.  As many think, man was not created immortal, but immature, not perfected. He was commanded to achieve immortatity or in disobedience achieve death, cessation of existence. 

We know that man disobeyed and thus suffered death.  This is physical or eternal death. Man lost life, the possibility to achieve immortality. He was  taken over by the power of Satan. The world suffered death as well and decay, corruption and death, the cessation of the created order took over.

Now a point on hell which seems to be your main concern.  God knew what would happen thus hell was provided for from the beginning. However, because God also knew that His Son, Christ would also come to redeem this world from the condemnation to death by Adam, we see in scripture that though man was a created creature, that the soul of man never dies.  In the OT the terms of Sheol, Hades, are used which depicts the place where all the dead reside, both the OT saints and all others.  Hell does not exists as such yet.  However, when Christ appears as Incarnated, becomes man, assumes our human nature, He defeats death by rising from the grave. This also gives life to the world and all men.  It is at this point that scripture states Christ decended into Hades and there He took captive those held in captivity  that were His.  This is the beginning of hell for those that remain and what Christ stated as paradise for the souls of those who would inherit eternal life with Him.

In that same act of His Incarnated resurrection He provided for the resurrection of all men at the end of time when He comes again.  That resurrection also provided for the existence of the New Heaven and New Earth. It is when the bodies of all human beings will be rejoined with their souls.

All men will be raised in the last day, immortal and incorruptible. But only those who lived faithfully IN Christ in this life will share eternal life with Him. All others will also live eternally, but outside of a living relationship with Him.

One other issue you raised is whether all men will know God.  God created man in such a way that there has never been a loss of the link between man and God. The soul of man is the uncommon link man has with the rest of creation but has with God.  All men as Paul so clearly states in Rom 2:18-24 will give an account of the measure of grace, knowledge that they had from God. It is not God's choice that any man perish. It is always man, his free choice, that will determine if one is in heaven or hell. 

What God created and what Christ redeemed are the same. All the rest is up to man, how He relates to God but God leaves no stone unturned in providing all that man needs to know, to love, to obey Him, from Adam to the last human ever to be born in this temporal world.

Thank you for the reply.

First. You say that

"We know that man disobeyed and thus suffered death.  This is physical or eternal death. Man lost life, the possibility to achieve immortality."

Followed by

"though man was a created creature, that the soul of man never dies."

Now, if the soul of man never dies... and Old Testament death of the disobedient meant ceasing to exist, and no possibility of immortality what about their souls? Where would they be OR did they not have any?

I have been taught we are spirits, with a soul, living in a body.  I have also been taught that when we die our souls leave the body to be with the Lord. Is that not correct?

#2. It is after Jesus came to earth and through his life and crucifixion that eternal life came into being and that in eternity one would either live with Christ in eternity, or live without him ... presumably in hell.

It is also only those that God initially draws that can come to Jesus...

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

This is very confusing cause we are told God draws people to Jesus... but not everyone.

This has to mean God intends those he does not draw to Jesus to end up in hell? (Otherwise he would draw all and those that reject
made their own choice ... but seems as if some have no option.

#3. Also, there is no rapture as is a common subject matter these days?



43
Theology Forum / Re: Christian Bible Challenge #2
« Last post by MeMyself on Yesterday at 02:24:00 PM »
Why are you mocking him?

Hopefully it's not an attempt to show him how a Christian should act.

No mocking...smiling, singing and doing the wave. Its fun, Catholica. Please don't rain on our parade... ::intherain::
44
Christian Politics Forum / Re: The Hillary thread
« Last post by Saved.through.Faith on Yesterday at 02:23:28 PM »
If you want to protect the 2nd Amendment, you better go with Trump! Hillary doesn't believe the right to bear arms is a constitutional right.
So, cast your vote for Trump, or stand down and let her pick some SCOTUS judges who will go along with her left wing views. Your choice.

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/06/05/watch-hillary-refuses-say-right-to-bear-arms-is-a-constitutional-right/

That and her unwavering support of abortion are two reasons to vote for Trump.  And let's face it: who could do a worse job on fighting terrorism?  Also, I don't want Hillary picking 2 or 3 new Supreme Court Justices.
45
I used to post in this forum quite a lot but in my humble opinion many here are Dispensational and are content with that.  Many don't seem to be too interested in other viewpoints.   I was Dispensational for many years and would not have changed had I not been open to questioning things I could never answer by using the Dispensational system.  And, yes, Dispensationalism is a system of Bible study, not just a way to view end times.  Also, I found that if I said anything that does not support Dispensationalism it was often stated in return or implied that I was anti-Semitic.  That's not true I did not care for being characterized as someone I am not.   At one time I would say that Israel is God's timepiece.   Today I don't believe that.   Jesus, not Israel, is Abraham's offspring.   Paul stated that one.   
46
Theology Forum / Re: Another question about hell
« Last post by Thaddaeus on Yesterday at 02:06:43 PM »
Rella,

Quote

We are told that ..........."no one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6

We are told that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

We are told that " It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. John 6:45.

So I would like to have a discussion, debate, free for all, whatever concerning something that has been nagging at me for a while now.

When did God create hell and when hell was initially created was it also intended for mankind?

I have always been under the assumption that when God created the heavens and the earth, and man.... that he had his plan in place that at some point in the future... from the creation, that Jesus would be sent and that He would pay the the ultimate price as "our" sacrificial lamb when He was crucified for our sins, giving us eternal life in heaven, when it is our time to depart this earth and us having had accepted that gift of Jesus' sacrifice. And if we did not believe in Jesus or rejected that gift we would spend eternity in hell.

But somewhere recently I began to wonder when God created the earth and man, did God create people He knew would be in hell when they died with no opportunity for them to escape that, simply because they never had the opportunity to accept Jesus as Jesus was not even born yet.

It has been troubling me and more so today than ever as the daughter of a very dear friend died a couple of days ago and was not saved. At least not in the way that the members of GC believe. (I should qualify that by saying that to my understanding she never accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior. She was a non practicing Roman Catholic and the life style she chose is very frowned upon in the Bible.)

Paraphrasing... we are told God draws those to Jesus...... and we are told that everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Jesus. ( Which says there is a learning that must be achieved.... it is not just that God sits and chooses and it is a done deal)

and then once you have learned you get to the Father, through Jesus.

But God does not draw everyone. And not everyone God draws will learn and accept.

So again I wonder if God creates people He intends to spend eternity in hell?

Or is it possible as it says in Genesis  2:17  "....................... you shall surely die.”

And just cease to exist?

Your post is a rambling of a lot of points that never seem to create a stream of understanding.

However, God did have a plan.  He knew from the foundations what would happen and by whom.  He provided all the mechanisms that you allude to but probably not in the way you understand.

From man's perspective and from scripture, we know that man was created in God's image in order to share with Him communion which would be exercised within the confines of a creation.  Creation, the world was created first. Man was created last because man would be the central and integral part of that creation. The world was given to man as gift to use within the union that man would have with God in worship, praise and thanksgiving and bring both himself and the world as a living sacrifice back to God.

A huge part of man is that man is free. Man is an independent creature, possesses free will.  Man would not be able to perform the obligations of his existence without being free to give love. Thus God set before him a commandment regarding the trees in the garden.  As many think, man was not created immortal, but immature, not perfected. He was commanded to achieve immortatity or in disobedience achieve death, cessation of existence. 

We know that man disobeyed and thus suffered death.  This is physical or eternal death. Man lost life, the possibility to achieve immortality. He was  taken over by the power of Satan. The world suffered death as well and decay, corruption and death, the cessation of the created order took over.

Now a point on hell which seems to be your main concern.  God knew what would happen thus hell was provided for from the beginning. However, because God also knew that His Son, Christ would also come to redeem this world from the condemnation to death by Adam, we see in scripture that though man was a created creature, that the soul of man never dies.  In the OT the terms of Sheol, Hades, are used which depicts the place where all the dead reside, both the OT saints and all others.  Hell does not exists as such yet.  However, when Christ appears as Incarnated, becomes man, assumes our human nature, He defeats death by rising from the grave. This also gives life to the world and all men.  It is at this point that scripture states Christ decended into Hades and there He took captive those held in captivity  that were His.  This is the beginning of hell for those that remain and what Christ stated as paradise for the souls of those who would inherit eternal life with Him.

In that same act of His Incarnated resurrection He provided for the resurrection of all men at the end of time when He comes again.  That resurrection also provided for the existence of the New Heaven and New Earth. It is when the bodies of all human beings will be rejoined with their souls.

All men will be raised in the last day, immortal and incorruptible. But only those who lived faithfully IN Christ in this life will share eternal life with Him. All others will also live eternally, but outside of a living relationship with Him.

One other issue you raised is whether all men will know God.  God created man in such a way that there has never been a loss of the link between man and God. The soul of man is the uncommon link man has with the rest of creation but has with God.  All men as Paul so clearly states in Rom 2:18-24 will give an account of the measure of grace, knowledge that they had from God. It is not God's choice that any man perish. It is always man, his free choice, that will determine if one is in heaven or hell. 

What God created and what Christ redeemed are the same. All the rest is up to man, how He relates to God but God leaves no stone unturned in providing all that man needs to know, to love, to obey Him, from Adam to the last human ever to be born in this temporal world.



47
A couple of problems with this article.

1) Texas does not have a concealed carry permit.  It has a handgun license.  You can carry open or concealed.

2) The situation had nothing to do with any permits he may or may not have had, but with the judgment he showed as an individual.

It seems to me after a host of articles where law abiding gun owners have stopped criminals in their tracks, whether they are 13 or 80, liberals want to mock law abiding gun owners.  I would be willing to bet wapo is not telling the full story.
The Washington Post spins a liberal bias to all of its stories.
48
Theology Forum / Re: What was the point of the tree of life?
« Last post by Star of David on Yesterday at 02:00:10 PM »
The tree of life, so named in Genesis 2:9, is one of the most baffling of the many problems spawned by the literal interpretation of the creation accounts. Literalists often pretend like the purpose of the tree is vague and unclear, but the truth is — unlike many things in Genesis 1-3 — the power possessed by the tree of life isn’t vague at all. Genesis 3:22 makes it abundantly clear: Have a little nibble on the fruit of the tree of life and you live forever.

Of course, this raises the question of why, exactly, did God create a magical tree that grants immortality in a world where every living thing was already immortal? If the young-earth theology is correct, then this tree’s miraculous power served absolutely no useful function until after the fall of man — at which point God barred access to the tree with angels and a flaming sword. So why’d he make it in the first place?

The problem ends by realizing that the details of the Book of Genesis are not meant to be taken literally.

49
Christian Politics Forum / Re: Dooms day...yuk...
« Last post by TruthScientist on Yesterday at 01:42:55 PM »
sorry mc but I have no verse nor a theology...  only Holy Spirit to lead and guide me to all truth...  there is probably not a verse or doctrine that someone will not argue against...  because you don't get the rapture or first resurrection not ...many are running to get your web address...  you have been lured into error and false teaching before as you admitted be sure, be very sure you are not again
50
Theology Forum / Re: Christian Bible Challenge #2
« Last post by Catholica on Yesterday at 01:32:02 PM »
Why are you mocking him?

Hopefully it's not an attempt to show him how a Christian should act.
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