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End Times Forum / Re: Rapture is a no-brainer!
« Last post by notreligus on Today at 12:04:51 PM »
The Latter Day Saints are now emulating what the majority of we in the Church teach about the end times.   They have their "restored" Temples now and practice their secret ceremonies of the "restored" one true Israel of God now. 
TS  one thing we agree on I think we are on a path that can only be changed by revolution after the economic crash.
Tyler said

I have put this on the coC forum in thanking God for men like Campbell who blazed the trail in America for Restoration who saw "the writing on the wall."

I doubt the writing on the wall had anything to do with the practice of buggery.
Yesterday, I ended up getting into a debate with an Atheist.  Apparently, he likes going around questioning Christians about their faith.  Sometimes he even heckles and attacks them for it.  Anyways, the debate that went on was pretty level-headed at first.  I shared my points and he shared his points.  However, as the debate went on, he became hostile, and I started getting mocked by him.  He began laughing at me, calling me an idiot and a moron.  However, the most hurtful thing was when he called me a "delusional walking talking basket-case" for believing in a fairy-tale.  Since he decided to stoop that low, I ended the debate right there, and told him that I pray he turns his heart to Jesus one day. But of course, he mocked yet again.

I know how good God has been to me.  And to have someone call me a "basket case", when I know what God has brought me through, was just plain insulting. It was hurtful to me, and I'm sure it was hurtful to God.  But it was more upsetting to know that if he doesn't change soon, it will be too late for him when he faces judgement.  While I was upset, I didn't act out in anger though.  Instead, I prayed about it, asking God to forgive the man, because he knows not what he does.     

End Times Forum / Re: Rapture is a no-brainer!
« Last post by notreligus on Today at 11:53:11 AM »
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.  2 Thes. 2:6-9

Something must be taken out of the way for the antichrist to be revealed. That something is the True Church, the born again in Christ. It's called the "Rapture." Then the antichrist will be revealed to the world and the great tribulation will begin. But without the true church. The church is not mentioned again after Rev. 4 because they are not on the earth.

1Thes. 4:17 says "meet the Lord in the air." The Greek word for "air" is "aer", it is about 6,000 ft. down, the lower atmosphere. The Lord will not come back to earth at the Rapture. The saved will meet Him somewhere within the boundaries of "aer."

The church is not mentioned again after Rev. 4 because they are not on the earth.

I used that same argument myself for many years, when I assumed that the Book of Revelation was not as it is internally described as a cyclical book but I read it as though it were a linear account of one event.   

It matters not to me if someone uses rapture or calling up or whatever; the Lord will call His people up at His return because the unleashed wrath of God is not for His people.   

All of these scenarios that are claimed are because of a wrong teaching that the Mosaic Law is going to be restored.   That takes Christ off the throne and gives the reigns back to Moses, and it restores Temple worship with animal sacrifices.   If we'd all think about it we'd know that has to be heresy.   "For God so loved the world" that He gave His only Son.  God does not favor one ethnicity nor does He give way to a religious system over His Grace.   Let's stop lying to people and telling them about Grace if we don't really believe it!   


You don't have this right.   There is no belief that God set out to cause the sin;  God freely took the responsibility for the sin upon Himself when He did not have to.   
That is the essential meaning of predestination.  If all acts of man and this world are decreed, then the sin in this world is caused by God because He decreed Adam to sin. There is nothing in Genesis that says this, and the rest of scripture never states or hints that God is the cause of sin.

In fact, from the beginning and throughout, death and sin are clearly stated to be the works of the devil. Man cooperated willingly with Satan in the first sin and thus fell captive to Satan.
And no place does God take on the responsibility of sin either.  It is still the obligation of man to not sin. Or we have a choice, which was never removed. In fact, with His defeat of death and sin, sin actually becomes the obligation of man that would not exist if Christ had not come. The consequences man faces now that he  has been freed from the bondage to death and sin is either heaven or hell.

I see predestination as did Spurgeon. Man has free will, but those choices are very limited by God. If man had no free will, he would have no resposibility. There is a balance.
so Spurgeon says because he sees the obvious contradiction. But simply saying so does not change the doctrine of predestination.  Most contradictions exist because they are trying in vain to christianise a pagan concept with what scripture actually states.  If God decreed an act, then it cannot be changed in time. To say man has choices means that it was not decreed. You may say one has choices, but the decree made the choice.  Which is the difference between believers and reprobates.  Neither one can change and there are no actual choices on either side of that decree.

Predestination was held by Plato and other religions of the day because they believed that God was immutable, changeless. Thus God established the earth from archtypes and set the world in motion by created means (decrees). God could not be active, because God is immutable. This results when man does not separate God's uncreated essence from God's uncreated energies. It is by His energies that He governs and rules this world. He is not just transcendent, but acts directly within creation.

The essential thread throughout scripture is that God created man just like Himself, in His Image.  That being free and sovereign.  God desired a creature that could communicate, (love) as He loves freely, uncoerced, freely, willingly and could attain to His Likeness through love and obedience.  Thus man is a responsible agent. God is just to judge man because man freely chooses to love or not love. Which is why we have His many forms of revelation to man so that we might know God and know and understand His will for us.  He desires that all men come to know Him and unite with Him.  To create man to be in union would make man lacking His Image and just another object. God does not need objects, He does not need man either, but because He is love, He created a creature that could communicate with Him freely.

Under the doctrine of predestination man is nothing more than a  tree or animal, lacks a rational soul because he does not need one. It does not matter how one attempts to cloak it with scriptural meanings or just create contradictions, predestination as understood within the reformed faith, even after 500 years of nuances by several others, cannot make it biblical.
Preterist Forum / Re: Breaking down (most of) Luke 21
« Last post by notreligus on Today at 11:34:44 AM »
Joh 15:1  "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Joh 15:2  Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Joh 15:3  Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5  I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6  If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:9  As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10  If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11  These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12  "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14  You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Joh 15:15  No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16  You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:17  These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
Joh 15:18  "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19  If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Joh 15:20  Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Joh 15:21  But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.
Joh 15:22  If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
Joh 15:23  Whoever hates me hates my Father also.
Joh 15:24  If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25  But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'
Joh 15:26  "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
Joh 15:27  And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

Christ is speaking to the Apostles/Disciples here as well.  Is he warning them about false Christs?   No.   He is warning them about the Jews who would persecute them.   

Diaspora Judaism, which began after Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, was already a strong move away from Palestinian Judaism.   There were a million Jews already living in Alexandria.    There was already a strong move away from Temple based worship and the sacrificial system.   

I feel that Preterists are so far off balance that they give the impression that Christ's main mission was not to save mankind but to set the wheels in motion for the Temple to be destroyed.   The wheels were already in motion and had been for a long time.   You need to have your wheels rebalanced.   
Debates - Free For All / Re: Baptism is not in water
« Last post by Charlie24 on Today at 11:34:13 AM »
I'll come back and finish this wonderful discourse.  Remember, if Nicodemus had NOT ask the question that he did, then Jesus would have NEVER mention water with being born of the Spirit, never.  Verses 6-8 proves that point. 

No, Not really Red.  If you read through the whole discourse carefully, you will see that in verse 3, Jesus declares, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."  Then Nicodemus raises his question about being born when he is old.  Jesus answers him with a clarification of what it means to be born again [or born from above].  Jesus says in verse 5, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What Jesus has done in verse 5 is to define what He meant in verse 3.  The statement in verse 5 is a repeat of verse 3, substituting directly for the words "born again" in verse 3 with the words "born of water and the Spirit" in verse 5.  So obviously, Jesus has defined "born again" to be one and the same as "born of water and the Spirit".   Born of water and the Spirit is what born again means.

And in fact the verses 6-8 confirm that fact.  Jesus says, essentially, "Nicodemus, I am not talking about physical rebirth, I am talking about Spiritual rebirth".  A Spiritual rebirth made necessary by the sins of Nicodemus leading to being dead [spiritually] in his trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).  Being dead in his trespasses and sins precluded Nicodemus from entering into the kingdom of God.  Therefore it was necessary for him to be reborn, born again, born from above, born of water and the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God.

So Nicodemus is speaking of a physical birth, Jesus is speaking of a spiritual birth, and 4WD is speaking of a baptismal tank.

4WD, you say the thief didn't need to be baptized because he was under the Old Covenant. Well, why would Christ be telling Nicodemus he needed to be baptized, he too was under the Old Covenant. It was three years later when the thief "didn't need to be baptized."

It is a great truth that you cited. However in the piece by Baker/Crosby, man has no responsibility whatsoever.  Those who teach the doctrine of predestination as does Crosby, his statements or understanding is that God is the only active agent in this world and at that is completely transcendent.  Thus the act of original sin as well as the acts of every sin in ones life is a decreed act of God.

Thus, since you have before espoused the doctrine of predestination, is love that is actually commanded a responsibility of believer or just another decreed act of a believer? 
Given your statement if it is under a decree, one wonders why God did not decree all men to have eternal life as well, Since that was the original intent, that all men be united with God in an eternal union.  In other words, Universalism.  In your view how do you separate the apparent contradiction?

No matter how predestinarians try to deny the actual implications of their view, they cannot get around the fact that man has absolutely no responsibility in his actions.  It is a nice cozy view, a view all psychologist aught to use to stem the great anxiety and guilt people have and why they need to talk to a psychologist.

It seems to me quite preposterous that God would require repentance or confession of sin, when He is the cause of the sin within the predestinarian view from beginning to end.

You don't have this right.   There is no belief that God set out to cause the sin;  God freely took the responsibility for the sin upon Himself when He did not have to.   
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