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Churches of Christ Forum / Re: Well, what happened?
« Last post by Mere Nick on Today at 08:58:05 »
Notice I said "trying"!
Churches of Christ Forum / Re: Well, what happened?
« Last post by mommydi on Today at 08:55:21 »
I was trying to get a straight answer from Kenneth Sublett ...


AVZ, I'm glad you came back to this thread and answered with that excellent, thought provoking post. +1
Churches of Christ Forum / Well, what happened?
« Last post by Mere Nick on Today at 08:48:50 »
I was trying to get a straight answer from Kenneth Sublett about what he thought should and shouldn't happen with the church meets.  It appears that he was of the view that there should be no preaching or singing.  Does that sum it up?
General Discussion Forum / Re: The use of 'tongues' in private prayer!?
« Last post by AVZ on Today at 08:32:58 »
Absolutely. But then again to a certain extent everybody is.

I hardly know any believers who are.

do you believe the office of apostle is still active?
And with that I mean the office and function apostles like Paul and Peter had?

The Bible tells us that there are.
Ephesians 4
11 [a]And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[c] to the extent of the full stature of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.

I was on a business trip for a few weeks so I let this thread slip by.
But since the discussion about tongues has revived elsewhere, I wish to respond on this post.

If indeed the office and function of apostle like Paul and Peter still exists, then we have to take the inspired words of these apostles as Canon, and we have to add their teachings to scripture.
If indeed the Holy Spirit still speaks through men in the same way as He spoke through the apostles, then we cannot make a differentiation between apostle and apostle.

You are left with a few options:
- If you do NOT accept the teachings of the modern apostles as Canon, then obviously the modern apostles are not the same as Peter and Paul. Hence the office and function of apostle has ceased.
- If you DO accept the teachings of the modern apostles as authoritative and inspired, then they differ in nothing from the teachings of Paul and Peter and you must add them to scripture.

The plain and simple fact that even the Pentecostal community does not add the teachings of the modern apostles to scripture is proof that even the Pentecostal movement admits that at least some of the spiritual gifts have ceased, i.e. the office and function of the apostles.
Although the Pentecostal movement teaches that the same Holy Spirit today still works like He did 2000 years ago, they are very shy to declare those teachings today as authoritative.

The exact same problem arises with the Spiritual gift of prophesy.
When God spoke through prophets 4000 years ago, we accept that as Canon and those words were included in scripture.
When God spoke to people 2000 years ago, we also accept that as Canon and added the words to scripture
When God however speaks through the Pentecostal prophet another 2000 years later, nobody accepts it as Canon and nobody thinks these words are worthy of scripture.

Why not? If God today speaks through prophets in the same way He did 400 years ago and 2000 years ago...its still the same God and they are still His words.
So what's stopping the Pentecostal movement from declaring their prophesies as Canon?

The Pentecostal movement claims that the Spiritual gifts have not ceased, but yet they themselves do not dare to treat today's gifts with the same value and respect as they claim they should.
So have some of the Spiritual gifts ceased? Obviously even the Pentecostal movement has to admit some did.
Christian Politics Forum / Re: Jeff Sessions
« Last post by Johnb on Today at 08:29:24 »
It is time for Donald to say the words that made him famous  "You are fired"
Devotionals / Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Last post by RB on Today at 07:46:46 »
Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas elementary facts.
Tongues: 1. The organ in the mouth used for speech; 2. the whole or sum of words used by a particular linguistic group or their dialect; 3. language or languages. 4. System of combining words for communication~system of speech for different nations. 5. Unintelligible utterances accompanying the occult, cultist or other eccentric religious practices.

Whether OT or NT the word tongue pertains to the actual organ in our mouths, by grammatical extension or figuratively, they both simply mean language. That is the first and most important thing to realize before we can come to understand its use in the scriptures. When we read of those speaking in other tongues, it is simply saying that they were speaking in "other languages." I know that most Christians already know that (at least in theory), but they seem they completely ignore this most evident fact in their unsound hermeneutics.
Genesis 10:20~ "These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations."
After their tongues means, after their specific languages. It is indeed unfortunate that the topic of speaking in tongues has become such an emotional issue that this is neglected. Which of course makes this issue very confusing and misunderstood. And I do understand that in a casual reading of certain passages, they often "appear" to support some Church beliefs in a doctrine of receiving supernatural ecstatic utterances of the Spirit. And for this reason, it will be the intent of these posts to examine these passages and determine exactly what the word of God actually says about these languages, as opposed to what men claim that it means. And more importantly, we will see what the scriptures do not say. Because many Churches today are reading into scripture a great many things that simply are not there. And as faithful Christians, it is our collective obligation to search it out and determine if what today's Churches "call" speaking in tongues, corresponds to the Biblical record of those who spoke in tongues. In comparing scripture with scripture, and allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, we will take an honest look at these passages and endeavor to understand what is written. Is speaking in tongues Biblical? There is no better place to start on this subject than the book of Acts, and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit as tongues of fire.

Acts two next....
Catholic Forum / Re: About Mass ?
« Last post by trifecta on Today at 07:44:57 »

Wow, it has been a while since you were in a Catholic Church.  They've been doing English (in the US) since the 1960s.  . . . And now the priest faces you.

As for not eating meat on Friday's . . .  don't knock it 'til you try it!   More seriously, Catholica's explanations are excellent and well documented.

Remember that fasting is a Christian practice as well and has been for a long time.  Is not eating meat really fasting?  Well, a less extreme form of it.  In a very early Church document, the Didache, it calls for fasting (meaning abstaining from animal products) twice per week and indeed that was the practice in Biblical times.  Evidence?

The pharisee boasts of fasting twice per week and tithing (Luke 18:12) defends himself in the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee.   

What you don't get, grams, is not every Christian practice is mentioned in the Bible.  The New Testament is not a new rule book to replace the Pentateuch, it's not.    Do you hug people in Church? Not in the Bible Or shake hands? Not there.  Do you worship on Sunday?  Not in the Bible.  Bible study on Wednesdays?  ut-uh, not there.  Kissing people at church?   Now that's there, but you probably don't do it.  (We do - more on that later).

My church is the Orthodox Church; we split from the Catholic Church in 1050 or so.  Why?  there are lots of reasons, but one had to do the RCC departure for the practices from the early church.  Sound familiar?

So, we in the Orthodox Church abstain from meat not once but two times in a week.  As the Didache shows, that was the practice of the early church.  (The Didache was a guidebook for new Christians of its time.  It reflects the practices of the church--that is the early church).   The RCC whimped out and gave in to popular demand and eliminated Wednesday fasting.   So, if you want to know how the early church worked, check out the Orthodox Church.  (Orthodox joke:  How many Orthodox Christians does it take to change a light bulb.  Answer: change?)

Another difference between the RCC and us: We don't do fasting as a law, but as a spiritual discipline.  RCC and the west are so influenced by Roman Law, but us, not so much.  The next question from my non-Christian friends, if you don't have to do it, why do you do it? That's a very Western question.  My answer:  do you ever kiss your girlfriend?  Have you determined how much time must elapse between kissing before your relationship is in trouble? No, you do because you want to.

Okay, back to the kiss at church.  We take the NT scripture about greeting each other with a holy kiss more seriously than most.  It is not uncommon to see people kissing (on the cheek) before, after and unfortunately sometimes during the service. 
Devotionals / Re: Praying in Tongues-Few Ideas
« Last post by 4WD on Today at 07:16:27 »
True. But there is no indication that the Apostles or Paul ever switched off their faculties, or that they were "possessed" by the Holy Spirit.
I don't think there is a scriptural basis to say that in order to enter the realm of the Spirit...the mind needs to be deactivated.
Jesus worked closely with the Spirit. Do you see any indication that Jesus every switched off His mind?

Of course the mind must be deactivated in order to "pray in tongues".  Unless it is deactivated, you might actually know and understand what you are praying and why you are praying.
General Discussion Forum / Re: Charlie Gard
« Last post by Alan on Today at 07:04:59 »
Charlie's parents decided to let him go.  They are going to turn off the machines.

Sad thing is that had this case not been held up in litigation for months on end, Charlie's success rate would have been substantially higher. In the end, the social state gets it's way.
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