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51
Christian Politics Forum / Re: Climate Change, change
« Last post by Amo on Today at 12:18:42 PM »
The quotes below the links provided, may be viewed with the entire articles at said links. All emphasis in the quotes are mine. My comments if any are in blue.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/30/president-obama-sees-pope-francis-as-political-all/

Obama finds an ally on political controversies at the Vatican

Quote
It’s not quite a gift from God but, politically, it may be the next best thing.

President Obama increasingly is finding a key policy ally in the Vatican, with Pope Francis standing virtually shoulder to shoulder with the White House on income inequality and a historic diplomatic reboot with communist Cuba. The pontiff next year also appears poised to offer greater support to the president on climate change initiatives and reportedly wants to be a leading voice at a U.N. global warming summit next year, where the American president will make perhaps his greatest pitch to date for more dramatic action on the environment.

For Mr. Obama and fellow Democrats, aligning with Francis offers clear benefits in the short term, as they are able to highlight agreement on controversial issues with one of the most respected figures on the planet.
But in the long term, analysts say, Democrats may pay something of a political price.

To soothe American Catholics, who may have grown suspicious of the church’s partnership with a liberal White House, the pope in the coming months and years is likely to zero in on fundamental disagreements with the Democratic Party
on issues such as abortion and religious liberty, said Joseph Prud'homme, a political science professor and the director of the Institute for the Study of Religion, Politics, and Culture at Washington College.

“I believe Francis will remind the faithful in his position as supreme pastor about what he has consistently said about life and religious liberty. I hope, and I expect, that he will, after these initiatives [on Cuba and climate change], remind the faithful of the unending position of the church with respect to the sanctity of human life, the importance of religious liberty,” Mr. Prud'homme said.


History has and will continue to play out the effects of Obama's cooperation with and dependence upon the papacy. We now know how he bypassed Congress in order to bring about that which he and the pope agreed upon. Though Mr. Trump has thrown a monkey wrench into those plans for now. Nevertheless the shared quest for income equality through wealth redistribution marches forward under other papal minions still. The above account also clearly reveals the papacies manipulation of both sides of the isle of Congress, in that it points out the political price Democrats might and or most certainly will pay in the future when Rome sides with the Republicans on issues they also agree upon. So continues the success of the papacies unending quest for world domination.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pope-implores-governments-to-redistribute-wealth-to-the-poor/

Pope implores governments to redistribute wealth to the poor

Quote
VATICAN CITY -- Pope Francis called Friday for governments to redistribute wealth to the poor in a new spirit of generosity to help curb the "economy of exclusion" that is taking hold today.

Latin America's first pope has frequently lashed out at the injustices of capitalism and the global economic system that excludes so much of humanity, though his predecessors have voiced similar concerns.

On Friday, Francis called for the United Nations to promote a "worldwide ethical mobilization" of solidarity with the poor in a new spirit of generosity.

He said a more equal form of economic progress can be had through "the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.”


Where do governments get their money? Is it not from the people they govern? Should not the Pope be asking the people of various nations to financially support his agenda, rather than the governing bodies of those people to do so with or without their consent? The Protestant reformers and the founders of this nation worked hard to establish government for the people and by the people so they would not have to financially support religions and or their political aspirations if they did not want to. The papacy bypasses this fundamental right by appealing to governments to supply the financial needs of their political agenda, at the tax payers of these various nations expense. Against the will of countless millions no doubt. This is the exact kind of abuse countless people suffered during the dark ages when the Church of Rome and the state were constantly in bed together. This is not to mention the many other abuses associated with the same.

Apart from this, why should big bad capitalists have to uphold and maintain the economies of those nations who themselves reject capitalism? What sense does that make. If nations whose economies just aren't working choose to reject capitalism which is working apparently for the capitalist nations they need support from, then some other kind of economic and governmental reform should be the answer, not a handout from capitalists whom they despise. The Pope decries evil capitalism, and then demands capitalists bail out other failed or failing economic or governmental systems. What will this accomplish but draining the wealth of said capitalist nations, placing the burden squarely upon the tax payers of said nations, while the papacy itself sits upon a mound of immense wealth. A respectable amount of which no doubt comes from the billions in tax dollars she receives from said nations, and countless business transactions and dealings she herself has with the same.

Why wouldn't the papacy want more state control over the distribution of the wealth of nations with healthy economies, when her political influence over the same to dictate where that money will go is constantly on the increase? WAKE UP PEOPLE!


http://www.romereports.com/2016/11/16/the-vatican-will-take-part-in-2017-expo-about-energies-of-the-future

Quote
CARD. PETER TURKSON
Dicastery for Integral Human Development
"The theme of the Expo impels us to think of ways of achieving social justice in the field of energy, and how to grant access to it for countries that lack energy and resources, making sure that energy is used in a clean and ethical way.”

The Vatican will have its own pavillion named "Energy for the common good: Taking care of the common home.” It will have an itinerary full of experiences and intellectual and spiritual proposals

The Vatican's proposal has five pillars:

1) Energy is a common good of all mankind.
2) Every human being is responsible for it and must contribute to global energy.
3) Energy management must foster peace and not conflict.
4) The main goal of energy is fostering human development.
5) Cooperation between people of all faiths is instrumental to universal access to energy.
 
Cardinal Peter Turkson says that there is another kind of energy, which is also essential.


There you have it. All people of the world of all religions must supply the needs of everyone everywhere. What does the Pope desire but a global welfare state? The redistribution of all of anyones wealth be it financial, natural resource, energy, or what have you, under his control for the common good. Which common good is of course defined by the papacy, and enforced by the governing bodies of the world. This is nothing short of the reestablishment of the dark ages. The horrors it will reproduce cannot and are not detected by the ignorant masses. Those who forget the hard lessons of history, are doomed to repeat them.

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/pope-calls-wealth-redistribution

Pope Francis calls for wealth redistribution

Quote
Pope Francis on Friday called on United Nations leaders to take better care of the poor and advocated for a “legitimate redistribution” of wealth.

“Equitable economic and social progress can only be attained by joining scientific and technical abilities with an unfailing commitment to solidarity” with the poor, the Pope said, in addition to a new spirit of generosity, according to a transcript published by Vatican Radio.

In one of the most economically liberal statements made by any Pope, Francis called for “the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.”
Francis criticized global wealth inequality and the growing level of poverty and hunger.

“An essential principle of management is the refusal to be satisfied with current results and to press forward,” he said. “Much more needs to be achieved, since an important part of humanity does not share in the benefits of progress and is in fact relegated to the status of second-class citizens.”


Says the man sitting atop perhaps the wealthiest institution on earth. Lead by example Pope Francis. Drain the wealth of your own institution which receives many billions every year already from tax payers all over the world first, before you force them to give more and more with or without their consent. Help to improve ineffective government and economy rather than just dumping money into or upon the same. Let's not create a welfare world, but rather lift others up to success and self reliance which breeds freedom, not dependence.


https://thinkprogress.org/pope-the-bible-demands-the-redistribution-of-wealth-a0ea6e59ec15

Pope: The Bible Demands The Redistribution Of Wealth

Quote
Pope Francis called for “the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits” on Friday, arguing that the Bible demands an economic system that cares for the “poorest and those most excluded.”

Francis made the comments while speaking before a gathering of several United Nations agency leaders, including U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. As he reflected on the U.N.’s target for Future Sustainable Development Goals, the first Latin American pope asked those present to resist participating in an “economy of exclusion” and to strive to have “a real impact on the structural causes of poverty and hunger.”

“In the case of global political and economic organization, much more needs to be achieved, since an important part of humanity does not share in the benefits of progress and is in fact relegated to the status of second-class citizens,” Francis said.


While the bible most certainly does advocate helping the poor, it most certainly does not advocate the redistribution of wealth with or without the consent of the wealthy. The latter is called stealing. One of God's commandments strictly forbids such. This same command of course also condemns all who have become rich by stealing from the poor. While it would be fine for most to see the wealth of those who have stolen from the poor to obtain their wealth redistributed among the poor, this is not the same as a blanket redistribution of wealth. The latter involves infringements upon financial freedom, and the right to choose what charities one's excess wealth goes to, if any at all. No religion or government should be given or take control of the wealth of its constituents without their consent.


George Washington

In a letter to the Ministers and ruling Elders delegated to represent the churches in Mass. and New H. which compose the first Presbytery of the Eastward.

Quote
" And here, I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe, that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political attention. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation respecting religion from the Magna Charta of our country.
    To the guidance of the ministers of the gospel this important object is, perhaps, more properly commited. It will be your care to instruct the ingnorant, to reclaim the devious; and in the progress of morality and science, to which our government will give every furtherance, we may expect confidently, the advancement of true religion and the completion of happiness. "


What does the Pope wish and strive for, but to completely reverse the above intentions of our founding fathers? He wishes to address and motivate the governments of this world to submit to his guidance in political as well as religious matters. He wishes to undo all that the Protestant Reformation which reached its political climax in the establishment of the government of the United States of America and the binding force of its Constitution representing government by and for the people. Which Constitution demands a healthy separation of church and state, not the neglect of or manipulation of one by or over the other.


 Thomas Jefferson

BILL FOR ESTABLISHING RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN VIRGINIA (1799)

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up there own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tryannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporal rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labors for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that, therefore, the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him the incapacity of being called to the offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opoinion, is depriving him injuriously of those priviledges and advantages to which in common with his fellow citizens he has a natural right; that it tends also to corrupt the principles of that very religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honors and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the feild of opoinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles, on the supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency, will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its offices to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.
    Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
    And though we well know this Assembly, elected for the people for the ordinary services of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding assemblies, constituted with the powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable, would be of no effect in law, yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.


Citizens all over the world, including citizens of these United States, now pay billions of tax dollars every year to the Church of Rome with or without their consent by act of their governments. Their politicians are redistributing the wealth of their nations at the request of the Roman Pontiff and aided by his minions at the UN as well. These nations are also being flooded with migrants both legal and illegal as an arm of this same wealth redistribution, with direct political and physical aid from the Church of Rome. In short, the Church of Rome is establishing a global government which in effect is to repudiate all that the Protestant Reformation accomplish towards human development and freedom. WAKE UP PEOPLE! COME OUT, COME OUT OF BABYLON.
52
Churches of Christ Forum / Re: Trivia question
« Last post by Norton on Today at 12:13:19 PM »
I believe they're the same.  Both are for sleeping.   :-)

Good answer, but not the one we were looking for. ::smile::
53
Churches of Christ Forum / Re: Trivia question
« Last post by notreligus on Today at 12:05:41 PM »
I believe they're the same.  Both are for sleeping.   :-)
54
General Discussion Forum / Re: Hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit!?
« Last post by mclees8 on Today at 12:00:53 PM »
God has spoken into mind before but He has also used my devotion which I read after a have prayer time. If I pray specific or certain verses come into my prayer, The Lord answers me through the devotion directly related to what I had prayed using the same verses at times. It has happened so many times that way, still I am in awe of Him. Some times I just need to know he is near and he answers me as if he were standing next to me. 

Thanks for sharing. God is not in a box. If He wants to speak to us we have only to be of the spirit. God is a still small voice. so listen closely. He wants to be real to all of us.  ::smile::
55
Seventh Day Adventist Forum / Re: Roman politics
« Last post by Amo on Today at 11:59:27 AM »
The quotes below the links provided, may be viewed with the entire articles at said links. All emphasis in the quotes are mine. My comments if any are in blue.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/30/president-obama-sees-pope-francis-as-political-all/

Obama finds an ally on political controversies at the Vatican

Quote
It’s not quite a gift from God but, politically, it may be the next best thing.

President Obama increasingly is finding a key policy ally in the Vatican, with Pope Francis standing virtually shoulder to shoulder with the White House on income inequality and a historic diplomatic reboot with communist Cuba. The pontiff next year also appears poised to offer greater support to the president on climate change initiatives and reportedly wants to be a leading voice at a U.N. global warming summit next year, where the American president will make perhaps his greatest pitch to date for more dramatic action on the environment.

For Mr. Obama and fellow Democrats, aligning with Francis offers clear benefits in the short term, as they are able to highlight agreement on controversial issues with one of the most respected figures on the planet.
But in the long term, analysts say, Democrats may pay something of a political price.

To soothe American Catholics, who may have grown suspicious of the church’s partnership with a liberal White House, the pope in the coming months and years is likely to zero in on fundamental disagreements with the Democratic Party
on issues such as abortion and religious liberty, said Joseph Prud'homme, a political science professor and the director of the Institute for the Study of Religion, Politics, and Culture at Washington College.

“I believe Francis will remind the faithful in his position as supreme pastor about what he has consistently said about life and religious liberty. I hope, and I expect, that he will, after these initiatives [on Cuba and climate change], remind the faithful of the unending position of the church with respect to the sanctity of human life, the importance of religious liberty,” Mr. Prud'homme said.


History has and will continue to play out the effects of Obama's cooperation with and dependence upon the papacy. We now know how he bypassed Congress in order to bring about that which he and the pope agreed upon. Though Mr. Trump has thrown a monkey wrench into those plans for now. Nevertheless the shared quest for income equality through wealth redistribution marches forward under other papal minions still. The above account also clearly reveals the papacies manipulation of both sides of the isle of Congress, in that it points out the political price Democrats might and or most certainly will pay in the future when Rome sides with the Republicans on issues they also agree upon. So continues the success of the papacies unending quest for world domination.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pope-implores-governments-to-redistribute-wealth-to-the-poor/

Pope implores governments to redistribute wealth to the poor

Quote
VATICAN CITY -- Pope Francis called Friday for governments to redistribute wealth to the poor in a new spirit of generosity to help curb the "economy of exclusion" that is taking hold today.

Latin America's first pope has frequently lashed out at the injustices of capitalism and the global economic system that excludes so much of humanity, though his predecessors have voiced similar concerns.

On Friday, Francis called for the United Nations to promote a "worldwide ethical mobilization" of solidarity with the poor in a new spirit of generosity.

He said a more equal form of economic progress can be had through "the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.”


Where do governments get their money? Is it not from the people they govern? Should not the Pope be asking the people of various nations to financially support his agenda, rather than the governing bodies of those people to do so with or without their consent? The Protestant reformers and the founders of this nation worked hard to establish government for the people and by the people so they would not have to financially support religions and or their political aspirations if they did not want to. The papacy bypasses this fundamental right by appealing to governments to supply the financial needs of their political agenda, at the tax payers of these various nations expense. Against the will of countless millions no doubt. This is the exact kind of abuse countless people suffered during the dark ages when the Church of Rome and the state were constantly in bed together. This is not to mention the many other abuses associated with the same.

Apart from this, why should big bad capitalists have to uphold and maintain the economies of those nations who themselves reject capitalism? What sense does that make. If nations whose economies just aren't working choose to reject capitalism which is working apparently for the capitalist nations they need support from, then some other kind of economic and governmental reform should be the answer, not a handout from capitalists whom they despise. The Pope decries evil capitalism, and then demands capitalists bail out other failed or failing economic or governmental systems. What will this accomplish but draining the wealth of said capitalist nations, placing the burden squarely upon the tax payers of said nations, while the papacy itself sits upon a mound of immense wealth. A respectable amount of which no doubt comes from the billions in tax dollars she receives from said nations, and countless business transactions and dealings she herself has with the same.

Why wouldn't the papacy want more state control over the distribution of the wealth of nations with healthy economies, when her political influence over the same to dictate where that money will go is constantly on the increase? WAKE UP PEOPLE!


http://www.romereports.com/2016/11/16/the-vatican-will-take-part-in-2017-expo-about-energies-of-the-future

Quote
CARD. PETER TURKSON
Dicastery for Integral Human Development
"The theme of the Expo impels us to think of ways of achieving social justice in the field of energy, and how to grant access to it for countries that lack energy and resources, making sure that energy is used in a clean and ethical way.”

The Vatican will have its own pavillion named "Energy for the common good: Taking care of the common home.” It will have an itinerary full of experiences and intellectual and spiritual proposals

The Vatican's proposal has five pillars:

1) Energy is a common good of all mankind.
2) Every human being is responsible for it and must contribute to global energy.
3) Energy management must foster peace and not conflict.
4) The main goal of energy is fostering human development.
5) Cooperation between people of all faiths is instrumental to universal access to energy.
 
Cardinal Peter Turkson says that there is another kind of energy, which is also essential.


There you have it. All people of the world of all religions must supply the needs of everyone everywhere. What does the Pope desire but a global welfare state? The redistribution of all of anyones wealth be it financial, natural resource, energy, or what have you, under his control for the common good. Which common good is of course defined by the papacy, and enforced by the governing bodies of the world. This is nothing short of the reestablishment of the dark ages. The horrors it will reproduce cannot and are not detected by the ignorant masses. Those who forget the hard lessons of history, are doomed to repeat them.

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/pope-calls-wealth-redistribution

Pope Francis calls for wealth redistribution

Quote
Pope Francis on Friday called on United Nations leaders to take better care of the poor and advocated for a “legitimate redistribution” of wealth.

“Equitable economic and social progress can only be attained by joining scientific and technical abilities with an unfailing commitment to solidarity” with the poor, the Pope said, in addition to a new spirit of generosity, according to a transcript published by Vatican Radio.

In one of the most economically liberal statements made by any Pope, Francis called for “the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the State, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society.”Francis criticized global wealth inequality and the growing level of poverty and hunger.

“An essential principle of management is the refusal to be satisfied with current results and to press forward,” he said. “Much more needs to be achieved, since an important part of humanity does not share in the benefits of progress and is in fact relegated to the status of second-class citizens.”


Says the man sitting atop perhaps the wealthiest institution on earth. Lead by example Pope Francis. Drain the wealth of your own institution which receives many billions every year already from tax payers all over the world first, before you force them to give more and more with or without their consent. Help to improve ineffective government and economy rather than just dumping money into or upon the same. Let's not create a welfare world, but rather lift others up to success and self reliance which breeds freedom, not dependence.


https://thinkprogress.org/pope-the-bible-demands-the-redistribution-of-wealth-a0ea6e59ec15

Pope: The Bible Demands The Redistribution Of Wealth

Quote
Pope Francis called for “the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits” on Friday, arguing that the Bible demands an economic system that cares for the “poorest and those most excluded.”

Francis made the comments while speaking before a gathering of several United Nations agency leaders, including U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. As he reflected on the U.N.’s target for Future Sustainable Development Goals, the first Latin American pope asked those present to resist participating in an “economy of exclusion” and to strive to have “a real impact on the structural causes of poverty and hunger.”

“In the case of global political and economic organization, much more needs to be achieved, since an important part of humanity does not share in the benefits of progress and is in fact relegated to the status of second-class citizens,” Francis said.


While the bible most certainly does advocate helping the poor, it most certainly does not advocate the redistribution of wealth with or without the consent of the wealthy. The latter is called stealing. One of God's commandments strictly forbids such. This same command of course also condemns all who have become rich by stealing from the poor. While it would be fine for most to see the wealth of those who have stolen from the poor to obtain their wealth, see that wealth redistributed among the poor, this is not the same as a blanket redistribution of wealth. The latter involves infringements upon financial freedom, and the right to choose what charities one's excess wealth goes to, if any at all. No religion or government should be given or take control of the wealth of its constituents without their consent.

George Washington

In a letter to the Ministers and ruling Elders delegated to represent the churches in Mass. and New H. which compose the first Presbytery of the Eastward.

Quote
" And here, I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe, that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political attention. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation respecting religion from the Magna Charta of our country.
    To the guidance of the ministers of the gospel this important object is, perhaps, more properly commited. It will be your care to instruct the ingnorant, to reclaim the devious; and in the progress of morality and science, to which our government will give every furtherance, we may expect confidently, the advancement of true religion and the completion of happiness. "


What does the Pope wish and strive for, but to completely reverse the above intentions of our founding fathers? He wishes to address and motivate the governments of this world to submit to his guidance in political as well as religious matters. He wishes to undo all that the Protestant Reformation which reached its political climax in the establishment of the government of the United States of America and the binding force of its Constitution representing government by and for the people. Which Constitution demands a healthy separation of church and state, not the neglect of or manipulation of one by or over the other.

 Thomas Jefferson

BILL FOR ESTABLISHING RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN VIRGINIA (1799)

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up there own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tryannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporal rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labors for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that, therefore, the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him the incapacity of being called to the offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opoinion, is depriving him injuriously of those priviledges and advantages to which in common with his fellow citizens he has a natural right; that it tends also to corrupt the principles of that very religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honors and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the feild of opoinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles, on the supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency, will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its offices to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.
    Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
    And though we well know this Assembly, elected for the people for the ordinary services of legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding assemblies, constituted with the powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable, would be of no effect in law, yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.


Citizens all over the world, including citizens of these United States, now pay billions of tax dollars every year to the Church of Rome with or without their consent by act of their governments. Their politicians are redistributing the wealth of their nations at the request of the Roman Pontiff and aided by his minions at the UN as well. These nations are also being flooded with migrants both legal and illegal as an arm of this same wealth redistribution, with direct political and physical aid from the Church of Rome. In short, the Church of Rome is establishing a global government which in effect is to repudiate all that the Protestant Reformation accomplish towards human development and freedom. WAKE UP PEOPLE! COME OUT, COME OUT OF BABYLON.

56
General Discussion Forum / Re: Hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit!?
« Last post by Dave_UK on Today at 11:03:39 AM »
thank you "chosenone"!

 The topic doesn't seem to have generated much interest - but other members may "wake up to it" somewhen.  Including my wife as a "RH-er who doesn't " the little survey currently stands at :-

LH-ers who dont=0    LH-ers who do=1    RH-ers who dont=1    RH-ers who do=2

IMO this topic can also involve the business of consulting the Lord via a "URIM" and "THUMMIM" style attempt (definitely Scriptural, King David used it - but still may not give an advantageous result as another incident in "Kings" indicates!) - to get The Lord's leading on some issue.  It seems IMO to be unsatisfactory to accept just a plain "YES!" or a "NO!" response to some question - on further petition the Lord hopefully might add some reason to clarify or emphasize things.

Another "trap" is to try to "badger" the Lord, if one doesn't like His response. If the response isn't to one's liking there might be a very good reason known to the Lord, but He may react by allowing you to "go your own sweet way" - and then suffer the consequences!!!

Another (rather questionable!?) approach when one is desperate for an answer to some problem - but cannot despite several "tries" hear a "response" - is to pray about the problem asking the Lord to influence the result of using the "drawing lots" method (this does appear on a few rare occasions in Scripture).  I must confess my wife and I have tried this method, when we were trying to move on one occasion.  We "drew lots" involving what we thought were actions to take like "should we stay in our current location?", "should we move nearer our daughter?" and if there was a positive response to the latter then "where" (supplying what we thought were likely places!).  We repeated each "drawing of lots" 3 times - of the "draws" 2 gave identical results and one was different.  Which still left us a bit puzzled as to what was the best action or place to move! - so wouldn't recommend that method!
57
General Discussion Forum / Re: Wild West Texas Weather
« Last post by Texas Conservative on Today at 10:54:15 AM »
North of me  ::smile::

I am about 50 miles south of you now.  Several hours west
58
General Discussion Forum / Re: The use of 'tongues' in private prayer!?
« Last post by Alan on Today at 10:51:10 AM »
AVZ, are you a cessationist?
59
General Discussion Forum / Re: Wild West Texas Weather
« Last post by Alan on Today at 10:49:05 AM »
North of me  ::smile::
60
General Discussion Forum / Re: The use of 'tongues' in private prayer!?
« Last post by AVZ on Today at 10:48:00 AM »
Praying in tongues "Praying in the spirit" enables us to pray for the unknown concerning things our natural mind does not know about.   Things we are not aware of and would never think to pray on our own.  Rom. 8:26 says that we do not know what to pray for, doesn't it? 

Praying with the spirit and praying with the understanding is two different ways of praying according to 1 Corinthians 14:15.  I have not always received the interpretation when I pray in private with the spirit. 

I also believe that Isaiah 28:11-12 when speaking of refreshing and rest is praying in the spirit.  It is refreshing and restful to pray and trust the Holy Spirit knows what to pray...I can entrust it all to God.


With regards to 1 Corinthians 14, again a great ripping apart of scripture. Take one verse and ignore all the others.
This is the part we are talking about:

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.


I think Paul is pretty clear in what he does. Yet the Pentecostal movement does exactly the other way around.
They promote to "switch off understanding", they will NOT pray with understanding, they will NOT sing with understanding and its considered a blessing if people do NOT understand what you are saying.
On top of that they rather speak thousand words in an unintelligible tongue than five words with understanding.

What else does Paul say about unintelligible babble?
"So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air."

And that's exactly what today's tongue speakers do. They speak into the air. Empty air.
Any language spoken in an assembly without an interpretation is speaking into the air...just as Paul said. 

Paul is not saying we understand what we are praying! He tells us to pray for the interpretation. If we understood it, would we need to pray for an interpretation?


Start with verse 15, it states "What is the conclusion then?". So what follows is important, Paul is going to make a conclusion, a final decision.
And here it comes: "I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding."

So if you want to use Paul's words as an answer to if the speaker understands what he says, Paul would definitely say "yes".
It is Paul who confirms that when a person prays with the Spirit...that person also shall pray with the understanding!
Now it would be very unreasonable from Paul to expect a person to pray with the understanding, if indeed a person would not be able to interpret what he says.

But the necessity for interpretation is not for what you think it is for. It is not for the purpose to translate, it is for the purpose to validate!
Imagine a person stands up in the congregation and says something in a foreign language. Now if that same person is also going to interpret, how would anyone know that what he says is correct?
That is the reason why another party has to interpret, so that the message can be validated independently.
This is to eliminate the risk of false teachers spouting incorrect messages and the congregation can judge correctly.

This is a very common concept in daily life. No person in court can be his own witness.
When a pharmaceutical company wants to launch a new drugs, and independent party is required to validate the medicine.
No contractor can do the fire safety assessment of his own building.

So when it comes to claims in daily life, we think it is perfectly acceptable and logical that those claims are validated externally...but if it comes to spiritual claims we are perfectly satisfied because the speaker says so?


Finally the huge contradiction in your argument is that on one hand you say that the chapters in Corinthians handle speaking in the congregation.
But is I ask a "tongue prayer" from where he retrieves the validity of his practice...he points straight at Corinthians with the claim that "Paul did it too".

So if you want to make an argument for two different types of speaking in tongues: One in the congregation and the other in private, and if Corinthians refers to speaking in the congregation only...then you cannot get validation from Corinthians when you speak in private.
So which one is it? Does Paul handle speaking/praying in tongues in private, or does he not handle it?
If he does handle it then you must take the complete chapter and apply everything. But if Paul does not deal with it then you cannot claim validation from it.
You avoided my questions....

Corinthians were praying with the spirit in the congregation without interpretation.  He was correcting them...not forbidding or saying it does not exist. He tells them without interpretation to speak to God not the congregation in vs. 28.  That sounds like prayer to me?!? Tongues is allowed in the congregation with the interpretation!

Not all tongues are prayer. Tongues with interpretation =prophecy vs. 5.

I agree that translation and interpretation are different...
Interpretation is not necessarily understood to mean a word-for word translation, but a rendering of a general sense of what is spoken in tongue.  The gift of interpretation is just as supernatural as the gift of tongue...it is BY THE HOLY SPIRIT...not a learned gift.

Who says the gifts or the Holy Spirit are supernatural? Teaching is also listed as a gift, yet you don't consider every sermon to be something supernatural do you?
A gift of the Holy Spirit can be a God given talent. For example a talent to learn multiple languages, or a talent for healing, or a talent for teaching.

By the way Paul never says the interpreter has to be supernaturally gifted. All Paul says is that the message must be interpreted.
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