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51
Theology Forum / Re: Salvation for all of mankind; may we hope?
« Last post by Thaddaeus on Yesterday at 07:25:35 PM »
Can we base hope on the scriptures such as:

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Rom 14:11)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1st John 2:2)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
(1st Timothy 4:10)

What I get from this everybody will confess Jesus, He died for the sins of the whole world and God is saviour of all men.

As a sidenote Gospel means "nearly too good to be true news" (greek: evvangelion).

But is it, too good to be true, to hope everybody will be saved?

Many more verses than 3 to be found which undermine this hope.

What do you make of this?



There is a lot of confusion within Protestantism or by sola scripturists who generally have a very sketchy view of salvation.  It is probably based on the assumption of Original Sin as interpreted by most Protestants.

Prior to the fall of man, man was in a mutual, personal relationship with God. Adam walked and talked with God and he was created to bring both himself and the world, which was a gift to man, back to God as a living sacrified of praise and worship.

By sinning, Adam plunged mankind and the world into death.  The lot of man and the world would be decay, corruption and death.  This is physical death. Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12.  In other words man lost life, he lost the eternal existene for which he was created to share with God.  Satan took man captive through death and controlled the created order through the power of death.  Man also became very suseptible to sin.  We sin because of our mortality, death - I Cor 15:56.

Obviously, man is incapable of saving himself. He cannot grant life, nor can he atone for his sin.  God provided a means for man delieverance, (salvation) from death and sin. Christ, became Incarnated, Heb 2:14 for the express purpose of taking on our human nature, our mortality, to defeat death and Satan, by dying and through His resurrection granting life to the world/mankind. Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:12-22, Col 1:20, II Tim 1:10, John 4:42, John 6:39.

This is the great gift of salvation that scripture is addressing, the salvation that Christ wrought for the world.  The verses you all8ded to in yourOP. Christ did indeed acually save the world and mankind (every single human bing) from the fall, from the condemnation of death. He defeated death by decending into Hades and filled i with life and took those    who were being held captive by Satan.

Now, that is what Christ did, but He did it for a purpose.  The purpose of why Christ came to redeem the world was not just to defeat Satan, death and sin, but to provide the avenue, or purpose of why He created man in the first place. To be joined with Him in an eternal union of love. 

This is the other aspect of our salvation. We are being saved to a unon with God. A union freely entered into by each individual. God is calling all men to repentance. Every man will respond and give an active answer to that call.  This is why God can judge us, hold us accountable of what we did with all the gifts He gave to man and how we use them in praise and worship to Him.
It is this second aspect whereby man is in an active, synergistic, mutual covenantal relationship with God by his own choice. We all will give an account of what we each did in being obedient to Him.
This second aspect is also called the attaining of eternal life, working out our salvation with God and if we are faithful in all things, we shall inherit eternal life with Christ.
52
Theology Forum / Re: A true statement
« Last post by new creature on Yesterday at 07:06:03 PM »
New we can quibble over what a legalist is but I believe I know what a legalist is and what they do.  I spent many years in a legalistic system and as a preacher of legalistic doctrine.  Of course I thought I was preaching and teaching truth.  If I am going to error I would rather it be on the side of love.  The truth of the good news is fairly simple.  Living out the love that Christ commanded is the hard part.  Love ,obedience, and truth are not mutually exclusive.
Well I just disagreed with: "One becomes a legalist by trying to bind their understanding on everyone." That's how it started.

Personally I wouldn't want to error at all.

I disagree that living out the love Jesus commanded is the hardest part. I feel a lot of it is God's work in me.

Quote
When Jesus described the legalist of His day the Pharisees his description included binding their views and recruiting others. Matt 23. So a legalist trying to bind their views on others is not a "generalization" but simply part of being a legalist.
You could describe the boy who came to Jesus and said he kept all the commandments as a legalist too. But I understand your point better if you meant the verse 23:4.

Quote
I don't understand why you feel the need to dispute what Christ held as the most important commandments.  The commandments of love.   
I don't dispute it. I'm weary of people who speak of nothing else. I prefer to see love in action.

Quote
Let me give an example and perhaps it will aid in our communication.  (Let me say first if this turns the thread in to a multiple  page discussion on baptism I will not participate there are enough of those on the site already)  Here goes I believe the NT clearly teaches baptism for the remission of sins.  However , if another brother who has been baptized but does not see that connection it is not a major problem for me in the Gospel of love.  Why because remission of sins takes place in the mind of God.  So if one is baptized to obey God that is what love does.  Hope that helps.
PS I am breaking one of my own rules to keep posts short so folks will read them .                             
I see what you mean. I believe in remissions of sins without baptism in water. I do have a problem if somebody believes in baptism for remission of sins. And not because I like being a pain in the a**, but because it makes me worry about them, whether they are in fact a brother indeed.

Believing in false doctrine is a red flag.
53
7-THE THIRD ANGEL’S MESSAGE



Revelation 14  9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This third angel brings a message of warning to anyone who will worship the beast, or receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand. They will face the judgment of God which will be executed without mercy. After this, by contrast, the patience of the saints is revealed. It is said of them, “that they keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” 

Let’s review what we have discussed concerning these three angels. The first angel preaches the everlasting gospel to the entire world. Its message includes a call to worship the creator.  The fourth commandment admonishes us to do exactly what this angel cries out for us to do.  The seventh day itself was blessed and sanctified by God immediately following creation, as a memorial of God’s creative power. The day remains, as God established it. Thus we have a call back to the true worship of the creator, on the day that was established by Him for this very purpose. This message is a part of the everlasting gospel that will be preached in all the world.

The keeping of the commandments of God, is pointed out as a difference between those who worship the beast, and those who do not. That is to say, that the saints keep the commandments of God, and those who worship the beast, apparently do not. Thus the contrast set forth by the third angel in verse twelve. The saints, that is those who accept and submit to the first angel’s message, which is the everlasting gospel, keep the commandments of God. This would of course include the fourth, which directs all to worship the creator.   Those who worship the beast therefore, will not keep the commandments of God, the fourth commandment in particular.

The second angel then declares that Babylon is fallen. The reason for her fall, is that she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. As has already been discussed, this wine is her false doctrines and religious ceremonies which came about through the amalgamation of Paganism and apostate Christianity. Her fornication is her illicit relationship with the kings of the earth. As is obvious, Babylon’s false teachings and form of worship, will also be preached in all the world, since she makes all nations drink of her wine. Therefore, it is the message of these two angels that divides the world into two separate groups, or harvests if you will, before Christ returns. The first of these being those who accept the everlasting gospel, the second being those who partake of the wine of Babylon.

As already discussed in earlier chapters, Sunday sacredness came about through the amalgamation of Sun worshiping paganism and apostate Christianity. Those who accept the authority of the Church of Rome, who is verily Babylon the Great, will accept Sunday the first day of the week as sacred. On the other hand, those who accept only the word of God as their authority accept the seventh day as sacred. These two days represent two completely separate faiths, and systems of worship. This we will address in greater detail in a later chapter.

The third angels warning is to the entire world, telling them not to worship the beast and his image, or receive its mark. This we know from Rev. 13: 11-18. The first angel calls us to the worship of the creator, followed by a second that tells us that Babylon is fallen because she made all nations drink her wine, followed by a third that tells us not to worship the Beast and his image. Without question, the primary issue addressed by these three angels, is worship.  God is calling his people back to a certain type of worship that they have apparently neglected.  Babylon is refuting this call by her false doctrines and religious practices. Finally, the Beast enforces a false type or system of worship upon all. This false form of worship is derived from none other than Babylon who has herself made all nations drink of her wine. It will be forced observance of Sunday sacredness. Those who accept this apostate form of worship, will receive the mark of the beast as a sign of their allegiance to the same.

From Rev. 7:1-3 we know that God’s servants also receive a mark, or seal. This seal is only placed on their foreheads though, not like the mark of the beast which is in the right hand or forehead. It has been suggested that God’s people are only sealed in the forehead because those that are his must believe what they are practicing in Him. The mark of the beast though, will be forced upon all. Even those who do not necessarily believe or accept the beasts rule, will go along in order to save themselves. In this manner, though they do not serve the beast with their mind, that is in agreement, yet they serve it by the works of their hands. An involuntary service. 

God’s seal is not visible to those of this world, but only to the angels of God. We know this from the sealing that took place upon the Jews in Ezekiel chapter nine. Only the angels saw this seal, and spared all those who had it. In Rev. 9:4 we see again that it is only those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads that are allowed to be hurt.

No one knows for sure, whether the mark of the beast will be a literal, visible one, or not. Not that it matters, the real issue is what choice the individual will make regarding the worship of the beast. This decision will determine which mark, or seal the individual receives. The consequences of which, will be eternal.

We know from Rev. 17, that Babylon the great, the Mother of harlots rides the beast. That is to say, that she steers, or controls the beast. Therefore, it can be easily deduced, that the type of worship forced upon the world comes directly from the false teachings and practices of Babylon, that is, the Church of Rome.

Revelation 17 1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

That the Church of Rome is Babylon the great, and the Mother of harlots, we have already established. That a beast is a kingdom, or government, we know from Dan. 7:17&23.

Daniel 7 17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth………………………
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,………………………….


 The Beast is simply a form of government that is controlled by Babylon the great. That is, one which enforces her dogmas upon all. Verse one of the above scriptures states that the whore, “sitteth upon many waters”, verse fifteen of the same chapter tells us that the waters that she sits upon are, “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.” As already pointed out, Babylon makes all nations drink of her wine, these are the waters which she sits upon. The woman is depicted in the book of Revelation as sitting upon the beast, and upon many waters.  This is because the beast is a form of government, made up, and supported by all the peoples and nations of this earth in rebellion against God. Verse eighteen of the same chapter says, “And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” Rome is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth, and the beast is that form of government at the end, which Rome shall rule through.

Sunday sacredness is that point of doctrine which all apostate Christian churches, and all other false religions of the world will rally behind in defiance of the God of heaven. This they will do under the leadership of the Church of Rome. It will be a sign, or mark of their allegiance to a confederation of nations on a planet in rebellion against the authority of God. Of course Satan himself is behind all of this. Let us move on to a more thorough investigation of the Sabbath, and Sunday, and what they truly represent.
54
6-THE SECOND ANGEL’S MESSAGE



Revelation 14 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

The proclamation from this second angel, is that Babylon has fallen. One would think, by all that has already been established concerning her, that she had already fallen. However, the verse itself specifies that which finalizes her fall. Her fall is complete when she makes all nations drink of the wine of her fornication. To date, the Church of Rome has not amassed enough power to make all the nations of the earth do anything, though in the past countless millions have felt the choking grip of her power. However, her power and influence are growing daily on a global scale, having ambassadors from virtually every nation attending to her.

We have already discussed what the fornication is, that she will make all nations drink the wine of in previous chapters. It is by her fornication with the kings of the earth, that she will be empowered to make all nations drink of her wine. What then is the wine? Remember, the golden cup which the Mother of harlots holds in her hand is filled with the abominations and filthiness of her fornication (Rev. 17:4). It is none other than the abominable and intoxicating influence of those practices and doctrines of her faith, which came about through the amalgamation of apostate Christianity with the pagan religions of this world. Sun worship being the predominant factor of these pagan influences. 

It was the acceptance of these practices and doctrines by her, which enhanced her relationship with the kings of the earth. It is evident then, that through a union of power between the Papacy and the kings of this earth, all nations will be involved in establishing her abominations. Thus we have two major events transpiring simultaneously in this world before the Lord returns. The message of the three angels which we are examining reveals these events. The first, is that the everlasting gospel is going out to the entire world. The second is that Babylon is completing her fall by making all nations drink of the wine of her fornication. In short, the world is being split in two. 

All the inhabitants of this planet will either accept the everlasting gospel which is being preached in all the world, or they will drink of the wine of Babylon’s fornication. This they will do by accepting the abominations of her teachings, in place of the truths of God’s word. These abominations will be forced upon the world by its kings, or rulers who are involved in committing fornication with the mother of harlots, the Church of Rome.

Thus immediately after the giving of these three angels messages, we see the harvest of the world being reaped. All have made their decisions, the harvests are ripe, and the world is reaped. Christ having planted the seed of the everlasting gospel will return to reap the harvest of His sowing, and bring those that are His home to be with Him ever more. Satan having planted his seed, a world in rebellion against God will be reaped by the judgment of the one they have crucified in their hearts. 

Revelation 14 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

These two events, the preaching of the everlasting gospel in all the world, and the making of all nations to drink the wine of Babylon’s fornication, will bring the history of this world to its climax and end. It is God who will allow these things to transpire so that all will make their decision in one generation, and the end of this world in rebellion can come about.  Notice that the gospel is preached in all the world by way of persuasion. God does not make all obey His gospel. On the other hand, Babylon makes, or forces all nations to drink of the wine of her fornication. Thus, her relationship with the kings of the earth in order to secure their power in her favor. Again, God will allow these things to take place so that before he returns there will be no middle ground. 

After the giving of these three angels messages, chapters fifteen through seventeen go on to reveal more about Babylon and her judgment, some of which we have already discussed. It is to be remembered, that the judgment of Babylon is the judgment of those of the entire world which choose to be in rebellion against God, under her leadership. After addressing these issues, the issue of Babylon’s fall is brought up again in chapter eighteen. We would do well to look at this chapter pertaining to that which we are discussing.

Revelation 18  1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


In chapter eighteen, though we are addressing the same issue as the second angel of chapter fourteen, this message is obviously pertaining to the time after all the nations have drunk the wine of her fornication. Verse three clearly states this fact, as well as the fact that the kings of the earth have committed their fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through her. 

Verse four however, introduces something new. Although both the second angel and this fourth one, tell the world that Babylon is fallen, the fourth one also makes a call for God’s people to come out of her. Again, this is the separation that we have been discussing. All those who would follow God must separate themselves from Babylon and her abominations. The everlasting gospel that goes out to the entire world includes a message calling people out of Babylon. They must separate themselves from the abominable teachings and practices of the same. This call is made in advance of the judgments that God is about to bring upon Babylon, who again, consists of the entire world in rebellion under the leadership of this Harlot. There will be no middle ground. All will fall into one of two camps. Those under the leadership of God, and those under the leadership of Babylon, the MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Then the end shall come.

To understand the fulfillment of this prophecy requires only that one understand what the abominations of the Church of Rome are, and how they will come to be forced upon all humanity. We have already examined the history of the establishment of these abominations, though not the particulars of their spiritual significance. For a more detailed look at their over all effect upon the gospel of Jesus Christ, the writer recommends the book CHRIST AND ROME. The message of the third angel gives some more specifics regarding this issue. We will now examine this message.
55
Theology Forum / Re: Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration
« Last post by S.T. Ranger on Yesterday at 06:28:26 PM »
Ranger I understand where you are coming from but still think that there is no dry baptism in the holy ghost as you imply.

There is no "dry" or "wet" baptism in regards to the Baptism with the Spirit...it is a spiritual baptism, and not described in physical terms.

I feel that the dry spiritual baptism you imply is actually a baptism of both water and the spirit as Jesus told Nicodemus.

The made it clear to Nicodemus, who mistakenly presumed physical birth (i.e. "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?") and was told...


John 3

King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



There is no way to make a physical birth accommodate being born from above.

The water is the Word of God, the method of cleansing that He uses.



It is water that God chose to do the spiritual transformation of dead to sin to raised in Christ just as Paul says in Romans 6. To me Paul describers Acts 2:38 in Romans 6.

The biggest problem you have with that is that not one of the disciples were water baptized when they received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

So why not them?

And Romans 6 never mentions water once:


Romans 6

King James Version (KJV)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.



Paul's statement is that those of us that were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death.

Therefore...

What is it there for?

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism...into death.

Now we back up to ch.5 and see the discussion revolves around man and his nature, one in which he is condemned due to sin, and the result is, of course...death:


Romans 5:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.



In view is, again, death. That is contrasted with eternal life by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now into ch.6:


Romans 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?




So Paul makes the case that all men die due to sin, right? Now, though, we are dead to sin, meaning...sin does not now lead to death.

Now he tells us why we are dead to sin:


3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.



...because we have, in Christ...already died. In other words, the death that had to take place for sin has already taken place. That death was Christ's. Our association with Christ is in His death, and by this we have been justified and not subject to the death we would have died outside of Christ:


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Acts 2:38 clearly states that the baptism in Christ name is for remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling spirit.



Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



You tie baptism to remission of sins and receiving the Spirit of God, but tell me if it cannot be viewed as tied to repentance. Let's break it up:


Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent,

and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Of course we are baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, but prior to being baptized it is just assumed that men will have repented. Remission of sins is tied to Christ...not water baptism.

And there is not one mention of them receiving the Spirit after being baptized in water:


41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


What is mentioned is that they gladly received his (peter's) word, and you have to do is back up and see that Peter is preaching...Christ.


Act 19 says that the spirit is given in the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ which is the one of Acts 2:38 so we have to passages harmonizing each other right there.


Acts 19

King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.



Notice he doesn't ask "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since you were baptized?"

I would assume these fellows believed the preaching of John and believed that Jesus was the Christ. But, they had only John's teaching, and it is to John's baptism of repentance that they were baptized into. This is precisely what the next question reveals:


3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.


Now notice he asks "Unto what were you baptized?"

Their association is with...John. They need to be associated with Christ.


4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

We see John's message...believe on the name of Christ.


5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Now they are baptized in the Name of Christ, in association with Him. But notice they do not receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, but...



6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



So the over-arching point here is that it is believing on the name of Christ, which these disciples of John had not yet done, that is the critical issue.

We understand that there were differences in receiving the Holy Spirit in the record of Acts, some receiving the Spirit before, some receiving Him after...baptism. But what is always present, always constant in all teachings is that men are called to believe on the name of Jesus Christ.

By the way, I haven't ran into any Hands Laying Regenerationists, have you?

Anyway, you cannot say they received either remission of sins or the Spirit in this account of their baptism.



Acts 10:47,48 says that the baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38) is a water baptism

Yes but it also makes clear they received the Spirit before water baptism:


Acts 10:44-48

King James Version (KJV)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.



Keep in mind that Peter at this point is a bit of a racist. At the least, a hypocrite in regards to Gentiles. It would be Jews, those of the circumcision, that might possibly reject the notion of Gentiles being baptized like they. Before being baptized, it was clear they had received the Spirit of God.


Acts 22:16 says that sins are washed away in baptism (acts 2:38)

Paul recounts his conversion:



Acts 22:12-16

King James Version (KJV)

12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.



Now we will see the account as it unfolded, and if you will simply look at the text, then compare that with how you interpret 2:38, you will see that your correlation between water baptism and remission of sins is in error:


Acts 9:17-18
 

King James Version (KJV)

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.



Ananias states "The Lord Jesus has sent me that you might receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Note that Paul receives His sight and is then baptized. Do you tie the filling with the Spirit with him receiving his sight, or with being baptized. It seems to me very clear that water baptism follows Paul's receiving his sight, and that there is no mention of receiving the Spirit at his baptism.

I would suggest this is the filling of the Spirit, not the reception of the Spirit, and that Paul was saved on the Road to Damascus.

We see repentance and obedience here:


6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.


We see that Paul is a chosen vessel here...


15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


So I don't see this as a text which you can support Baptismal Regeneration with.


We have many passages connecting the baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38) to the DB&R see 1 Cor. 1:13

Neither does this verse...



1 Corinthians 1:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?



...support your view. Paul focuses on Christ's crucifixion and our association with Christ.

The "connection" between the Crucifixion and Christian Baptism is a given.


Romans 6:3ff

See above.

and so on.

No, not so on, you only have a couple texts which help support your view. But that remission of sins is obtained through belief...I have a whole New Testament to choose from.

Remission of sins requires the shedding of blood (death), not a symbolic washing.

In other words, the only way sin can be forgiven is for someone to die for those sins. Every sinner has before him the potential of paying for his sin with his own death, or, the death of Christ can be imputed in his place. For that to happen, one must believe on the name of Christ, and this is accomplished through the ministry of the Holy Spirit Himself. He makes men understand so that they can believe in Christ.


The bible has made clear that the baptism in Christ name which is found in Acts 2:38 does indeed as told remit sin


Sorry, no.


Acts 2:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Jesus Christ is the One that remission of sins is tied to, not water baptism.

If it said "Be baptized for the remission of sins in the Name of Jesus Christ...

...you might have a good argument.

But as it is, you have to deny the numerous passages which teach that remission of sins is accomplished by Christ through His vicarious death.


Matthew 26:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



End of story.


and give the indwelling spirit.

It is God that "gives the Holy Spirit:"


John 14:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


John 16


King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.



And I wanted to do this one last so I can show the correlation to Acts 1:


John 15:26-27

King James Version (KJV)

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


Acts 1:8


King James Version (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.




First one receives the Spirit of God, then they are empowered (which is the filling of the Spirit).

Now we back up to see the Lord makes it clear that it is not a water baptism the disciples are to await:



Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



It is the indwelling of God which is the promise of God, taught by Christ, and reiterated by the Apostles.


It is the baptism that Jesus was to baptize with. 

Sorry, no. We see repeatedly that the Baptisms the Lord would effect are with Spirit and with fire, referring respectively to salvation and judgment.


It is a spiritual baptism both water and the spirit as Jesus told Nicodemus.

You cannot make water baptism...spiritual.

The Birth by "water" and Spirit is from above, not below.

Nicodemus also incorrectly assumed physical birth and the Lord corrected him:

Consider:


John 3:7-12

King James Version (KJV)

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



First, those born of the Spirit are...born of the Spirit (which the Lord contrasted with being born of flesh).

Second, those born of the Spirit are likened to where the wind comes from...it is not discernible.



9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?



In v.10 Nicodemus marvels, and the Lord Himself marvels...that he does not know these things. He should have. The promise of God was not hidden from Israel.

Lastly, note that the Lord concludes that the teaching imparts "heavenly things."

And water baptism is an earthly practice.

Born from of above, and born of the Spirit.


It is the baptism in which the Spirit God or Jesus does the transforming work as told in Romans 6.

Romans 6 does not say that. Nowhere do we read in Scripture that men are transformed by water baptism.


Most all verses talking about when you were baptized are pointing to Acts 2:38

I wouldn't argue that, but that is not the point: the point is that remission of sins and reception of the Holy Spirit is not through water baptism.

Again, the Ministry of the Comforter is highly neglected these days it seems. The Comforter convicts the sinner of sin, and the sinner responds to Him. That is the point of conversion. That is the time of the New Birth. That is the time of the indwelling of God.


John 14:23


King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



So we must ask ourselves is Acts 2:38 a dry baptism or is it a water and spirit baptism?

Acts 2:38 refers, I believe, to Christian Baptism, which is a baptism by which we are publicly associated with Christ, which is an outward expression of the spiritual reality of the conversion of the believer.


God bless.
56
Theology Forum / Re: A true statement
« Last post by Johnb on Yesterday at 06:28:15 PM »
New we can quibble over what a legalist is but I believe I know what a legalist is and what they do.  I spent many years in a legalistic system and as a preacher of legalistic doctrine.  Of course I thought I was preaching and teaching truth.  If I am going to error I would rather it be on the side of love.  The truth of the good news is fairly simple.  Living out the love that Christ commanded is the hard part.  Love ,obedience, and truth are not mutually exclusive. 

When Jesus described the legalist of His day the Pharisees his description included binding their views and recruiting others. Matt 23. So a legalist trying to bind their views on others is not a "generalization" but simply part of being a legalist.

I don't understand why you feel the need to dispute what Christ held as the most important commandments.  The commandments of love.   
Let me give an example and perhaps it will aid in our communication.  (Let me say first if this turns the thread in to a multiple  page discussion on baptism I will not participate there are enough of those on the site already)  Here goes I believe the NT clearly teaches baptism for the remission of sins.  However , if another brother who has been baptized but does not see that connection it is not a major problem for me in the Gospel of love.  Why because remission of sins takes place in the mind of God.  So if one is baptized to obey God that is what love does.  Hope that helps.
PS I am breaking one of my own rules to keep posts short so folks will read them .                             
57
General Discussion Forum / Re: What does God tell us about debt?
« Last post by Mere Nick on Yesterday at 06:14:28 PM »
I checked our credit union's website for their rates.  There's no reason to believe the choice was between paying a higher price, with financing, or getting a cheaper cash deal since one has multiple financing options.
58
Christian Women Forum / Re: New Member: I need some advice about my marriage
« Last post by Jean74 on Yesterday at 06:11:17 PM »
Be in thought and prayer for you my friend. God never gives up on you. You need to lean on Him no matter what. He is with you 24/7. Praying for your husband as he will change and go back to you. Along with leaning on God or going to God if he has not. Will leave it at that.
59
Theology Forum / Re: Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration
« Last post by new creature on Yesterday at 06:05:39 PM »
Regeneration is tied to baptism, because one does not receive the indwelling Spirit (according to Scripture) unless they receive baptism. Baptism is NOT the primary cause of regeneration, but a "cause-way" to receiving the Spirit, for no one receives the Spirit unless they are abiding in the covenant, and baptism is the God-ordained initiation rite into the covenant.

I don't know how much simpler it can be stated. Baptism does NOT make one regenerated...baptism does NOT regenerate...it is only the doorway into the covenant where regeneration awaits as a covenant promise of God.

But perhaps the problem here lies with you the same as it does with STR...in that your experience tells you that it does not happen like this. First, Scripture is always right and always trumps our experiences. Second, God is not legalistic in the application of covenant entrance like some people here are. The thief on the cross, and other death-bed conversions (situations where the person did not have the luxury of receiving baptism), God allowed into covenant relationship without baptism. Why? Because God is righteous, and He will ALWAYS act according to righteousness.

If He did not, then practically none of us here today would be saved, because of false Reformed teaching that states baptism is not entrance into the new covenant, because in the Reformer's minds that meant you had to do something in order to be saved, and they were 100% against that notion, even thought it is NOT taught in the Scriptures. In other words, The Scriptures do not teach that one has eternal life simply because of grace and faith alone, that is false Reformed doctrine.

God has allowed men of faith to enter into the covenant without receiving baptism ONLY because that knowledge was lost through perversion sometime beginning in the 4th century. Again, if He stuck tenaciously with strictly what the Scriptures teach, then practically none of us today would be saved. Yet, just because the cop saw you speed through the intersection, but decided to let you slide, does NOT mean that he will let everyone slide and break the law without suffering the consequences thereof. God still demands baptism as formal entry into the covenant, and if someone who has not been baptized hears this, and yet still refuses to receive baptism, then I would not want to be in that person's shoes when he stands before God. You are accountable for what has been made known to you.
You're so full of ....
Quote
Quote

I mean water baptism when using the word baptism only. Most people don't know about baptism in the Holy Spirit, so in non-Christian discourse there is no need to distinguish. I also thought as you do that in the Bible water baptism was as you call it the "default" meaning of baptism, initially when I started reading the Bible, but I don't any more.

And you came to this conclusion by reading...what other books?
None, obviously. I call projection. We all don't read funny theounlogical books like yourself.

Quote
Because that is the default meaning of baptism unless it is couched within terminology within the context to give the CLEAR indication that water baptism is not what is intended. Of the 20 occurrences of baptism in the NT Scriptures, only Matthew 21:25, Mark 10:38-39, 11:30, Luke 12:50, 20:4, and possibly Ephesians 4:5 do not mean water baptism, all of the other occurrences do.  As for the word baptized, all but Acts 1:5 (second occurrence of the word - and repeated again in Acts 11:16), I Cor. 10:2, 12:13 - out of another 44 passages - all refer to water baptism.

Based upon these facts, I find your comment curious...
[/color]
Was that C&P?

I know you find my posts curious. I think it's a miracle you understand your own posts. Using the term loosely.
60
Theology Forum / Re: Forgive?
« Last post by Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Yesterday at 05:43:52 PM »
Even old testament sacrifices never took away sin.  But they were required by God and therefore good.
I disagree.  The OT sacrifices were not a good thing.  They were allowed by God, due to the hardness of heart of the Israelites.  They were oftentimes reviled by God, when the Israelites offered them as a way to avoid doing what was right in the first place.  You will notice that the sacrifice was taken away.  I cannot believe that was an accident.

1Sam 15:22
Amos 5:21-24

I seem to remember that they were commanded by God, not allowed by God.  Under the Old Covenant of course.  God wanted more from the people, it is true, but that didn't make the sacrifices inherently bad or evil.  He preferred and desired people to do the right thing rather than need to make sacrifices.  They were each acts of obedience to God, who IIRC commanded them to be done.  It would have been defiant of God to not perform the sacrifices required by the Covenant.
Yes, they were commanded.  Maybe you read differently than I do, but I read that a very angry God, at the time of the Golden Calf incident, instituted the sacrificial system the Israelites apparently desired.  I also read that God did not desire sacrifice, but obedience.  It was the Israelites who wanted to be like their neighbors and do the sacrifices. 

I also read that God created the sacrifices in such a way as to entirely point forward to the day when they would be abolished.

Jarrod
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