My quotes and responses in black for the sake of clarity, Thaddeus' in blue.
Your arguments sound more Roman Catholic as we progress. Either the Church of Jesus Christ is built upon His teachings and the Apostles He hand picked as the standard for all afterward, or everything is up for grabs and change by any and all claiming exclusive guidance of the Holy Spirit of God.
which is why I believe in Christ as He has revealed Himself to us in and through His Church.
You live in an environment whereby any man, reading scripture can literally develop any theory he so desires.
The people within a or the church who believe this way or that according as they understand scripture, are the church. You lean perhaps more toward the Bishop’s are the church. Still, many Bishop’s even of the same denominations have differing opinions regarding truth. Therefore, it still remains up to the individual to know and understand truth for themselves according to scripture, regardless. To suggest anything else, is to suggest that individuals in Christ should hand their salvation over to the submission of mere men occupying an office or title of a denomination. What does this have to do with Paul’s admonition for us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling? How does one submitting completely to another human being, work out their own salvation worth fear and trembling? They do not, they cannot. All such leads away from personal responsibility, while in the end, all will stand before God alone to answer for their own actions.
How dare then, any human being require another to look upon them as Christ Himself, and submit to such presumptive claims of authority. While I belong to a denomination, I will never tell anyone to look to that denomination for salvation, or to submit to it as though it were Christ Himself. Salvation is in Christ alone, and the scriptures are they which testify of Him. All should look to the same, which God has preserved for us, as the final authority on any issue. The rest is all just games that silly men play. My church is the true church, no my church is the true church, no my church is the true church. BALONEY! Submit to the teachings of the word of God and be the true church of Christ.
Matt 4:1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
There have been countless changes and deviations from the teachings of Christ and His Apostles, all who have made them claiming the Holy Spirit on their side.
Can't speak for the RCC since they have made many changes. However, you have yet to come up with a single change or deviation from Christ or His Apostles. in Orthodoxy. Those men that claimed the Holy Spirit guiding them individually were all declared heretics or their new teachings. When it comes to interpretation, it is always the Church, the Body that is the ground and pillar of Truth.
Yes, and those heretics claimed that those calling them heretics were the real heretics. And so on, and so on, and so on. Rome claims the same thing you do, who is right? They have more members than you do, their body therefore being bigger, does that make them righter? Again, the word of God determines such for all who will study and examine the same, and submit to its rightful authority. Ignatius added to and changed the testimony of scripture. You deny this and say those that follow these changes have changed nothing, or made the changes by God’s will apparently. I and all others have the perfect right to contest these false claims as we see it, by scripture, without jeopardizing our standing as members of Christ’s church. Regardless of your claims to the contrary. While any denomination has the right as well to disfellowship those who will not agree with their chosen leaders, just who or which truly represents the church of Christ remains to be seen in the judgement. The scriptures do not address Sunday sacredness at all, nor do they admonish any to look upon another sinful human being as they look upon Jesus Christ Himself. Be it Bishop or Pope.
Once any leave the foundations taught by Christ and the Apostles themselves, they become just another contender falsely claiming to be the true church of Christ. God does not contradict Himself, those who contradict the testimony of scripture are not the true church of Christ
which is why all men who have done so have been heretics.
And who has authority over Christ who is the Head of the Church and the Holy Spirit who is guiding that Church. Are you claiming that your interpretation supercedes that of Christ or the Holy Spirit?
Yes, just as you are a heretic to the Roman Catholic church, for not believing all that they teach in submission to the true church of Christ as they claim. I am not the one telling anyone they are a heretic for not submitting to any one man or group of men claiming to be the true church, you are. I am exercising my right to contest what I deem false teaching by others, and admonishing all to look to the holy scriptures themselves concerning the same. To submit to them, if they wish to be true members of the church of Christ. Anything above this would be to presume authority never given to me or any other man for that matter. For no man or group of men can presume greater authority than the scriptures themselves, but by entering into prerogatives claimed only by anti-chirst himself.
Why would I or anyone else choose your claims over those of any other making the same claim, and what difference would it make, seeing that you all claim the same thing?
If you do your research without the preconceived ideas that you are actually the arbiter of scripture you might learn something. I spent four years of study before I converted from protestantism to Orthodoxy.
So, I would be interested in what you think has changed?
All kinds of people have done all kinds of research and study including myself, and they still come up with all kinds of different beliefs. I’ve already shared some of the changes with you concerning Ignatius, which you simply deny. There was no Pope in the early church, and there is no admonition in scripture to look upon a Bishop or anyone else as upon Christ Himself. Ignatius tells us to do this very thing, and now there is a Pope. I contend one lead to the other. You deny it. Nevertheless, Ignatius did teach such which is found nowhere in scripture, and there is now a Pope. So denial or not, these are changes.
The Jews and early church, who were all at first Jews, kept the fourth commandment. Over time, many no longer did so as the converted Gentile population grew far greater within the church than the Jewish population and influence. This is a change. The day of worship within “Christianity” changed over time without and even to the contrary of scripture and Christ’s teachings. This is documented history. Which many, including yourself I suppose, deny. Or to the contrary, claiming as Rome does that your church had and has the authority to contradict the teachings of scripture, and even change the commandments of God. Either way, this is definite change.
Baloney! You all simply wish to establish your own authority or that of your denominations above everyone else’s. Meanwhile, God has preserved the scriptures for us, that all may authenticate true authority from their testimony.
you are so indoctrinated into sola scriptura you don't even know that Christ's Church, that He established is not a denomination. Your scriptural authority doesn't seem to be working very well. After 500 years you have thousands of differing interpretations.
Yet the authority of Christ and the Holy Spirit has both preserved His Church and the revelation entrusted to it within that Church, His Body.
To the contrary, I absolutely know that Christ’s church is not a denomination, or orthodoxy, or Catholicism, or any other label various groups wish to associate it with. It is composed of all those who submit by faith to the authority of Christ, His Apostles, and the prophets preserved for us in the holy scriptures. Nor do you, or I, or anyone else save Christ alone for that matter, truly know who the members of Christ’s body are. The wheat and tares grow up together, whom Christ alone can differentiate and will separate at His coming. Meanwhile, we here should prayerfully study the word of God and seek to submit to the same whether as a member of this or that denomination according to our educated understanding, or not according to the same. Our personal salvation cannot be handed over to any other individual or group without peril to our own souls. There is no being saved by association, save that association be with and in Jesus Christ alone. Not this or that denomination, or Orthodoxy, or Catholicism, or what have you.
The body of Christ is not, nor ever has been established by institutions, but rather by the conviction and conversion of individual souls under the direction of the Holy Spirit of God Himself. The closest test possible here on earth is in relation to one’s conformity to the word of God itself, not their membership in any group of men claiming to be the only authentic body of Christ.
Where did you ever get the idea that things would work out well for the body of Christ on this earth? The divisions started in the days of the Apostles themselves, and have continued ever since. They were predicted to increase by Christ and HIs Apostles themselves. You say the problem is non conformity to the teachings of your Orthodoxy and those “CHURCH FATHERS” it claims as authentic. I say it goes farther back and stems from non conformity to the teachings of Christ and His Apostles themselves. You subject scripture to the authority of the church, your own of course, I subject all churches to the authority of scripture. These contentions will not end but only increase, as scripture itself has predicted.
2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I will continue to look to the scriptures to judge all churches, never the other way around.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
nice text, but every denomination within Protestantism makes this claim yet they as denominations are from that One True Chruch that Christ promised to leaved an orphan, to preserve it.
I’m not claiming it for a denomination, or Orthodoxy, or Catholicism, or Protestantism, or what have you. You are. I claim it only for those who make their “foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;”. Who alone are the true body of Christ, found no doubt as members of every denomination whose goal is to do the same.
Go to, follow your “CHURCH FATHERS” I will stick to the holy temple of the Lord which is built upon Jesus Christ, His apostles, and the prophets. Those who contradict their testimonies, adding to and or taking away from the same, hold no place or authority over me. They are wrongfully usurping the authority of Jesus Christ, His Apostles themselves, and His prophets of old.
so far that would seem to be you. You are imposing your personal interpretation over that of the Revelation of the Holy Spirit and claiming it as authoritative. If you think it is authoritative, submit it to the Church and see, I Tim 3:15.
The holy scriptures are the Revelation of the Holy Spirit of God above all other authorities. You are waisting your time trying to get me to submit to your body of believers claiming authenticity over all others. I need not belong to your institution or any other to be saved in Christ and part of His body. No individual is dependent upon any self proclaimed “CHURCH OF CHRIST” for salvation or membership of the body of Christ.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Christ saves. Not Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy, or the denominations associated with either or or not. All the saved in Christ are members if His body and the true church of Christ which cannot be encompassed by any single institution. Regardless of the many claims to the contrary.
You of course mean to submit it to your church and see. Others would tell me to submit it to their church and see. They all claim as you do. Since you quoted from Timothy regarding the establishment of the authority of your church of course, let’s quote from Timothy again concerning the true source of that authority.
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Do you deny the New Testament is scripture? Do you claim the authority of the writings of the “CHURCH FATHERS” as equal to those of the New Testament scriptures? Do you believe the world would not have the New Testament scriptures if your church didn’t give it to them?
You claimed earlier that Ignatius probably did not have most of the NT scriptures. After examining those letters accepted by many as authentic, while discarding the other eight I believe it was, I found this to be untrue. I found quotes from Ephesians, John, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, James, 1 Peter, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Mathew, Luke, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Acts, Romans, Colossians, Philippians, Revelation, Hebrews, and Galatians. Do you still believe Ignatius didn’t have most of the NT scriptures? Would you like the quotes to examine? If after examining them, you find this to be true, would this not merit a change in your position? If in fact Ignatius had most of them, then either the NT scriptures were in much greater circulation than you and others thought or think, or in fact these letters past off as Ignatius’ much have been written at a much later date. Since of course as you and others contend I believe, the NT scriptures were not prevalent to the early church, and none of us would have them save your church gave them to us at a much later date than the time of Ignatius. Correct me if I am wrong please, or misunderstand your position. Thank you.