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51
Theology Forum / Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Last post by Jaime on Yesterday at 17:46:29 »
It wasn’t the five step process that was the problem, it was over emphasis on one of the steps at the expense of all else.
52
End Times Forum / Re: Colon or not?
« Last post by LaSpino3 on Yesterday at 17:42:19 »
3 resurrections: The following came from and 1837 Hebrew to English dictionary that I own. And I also use Gesenius Hebrew, Chaldee Lexicon, but the Gesenius does not pin point the verse in Dan.9:26.

The phrase “cut off has several meanings in the Hebrew and the Chaldean language. I’ll let you pick the one you believe fits the passage in,

Dan.9.26, “and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself---.”

1.   To amputate, as a rotten limb, or branch.
2.   To hew down as a tree.
3.   3. Cut in two, as in a sacrifice.
4.   Excommunicated, expelled, as from the congregation.
5.   Minced, cut small, as meat.
6.   Destroyed, as an enemy.
7.   To free as by divorce.
8.   Covenanted as with God.
9.   Ratified, or confirmed as a contract, or an agreement.

Your second concern. "And unto (until: a word meaning time will pass from what was said before) until the end of the war desolations (plural) are determined." It isn't just the war with the Roman's, it's been all the wars, Catholic church, Ottoman's, Muslims, Germany etc. Well, if you believe the war between the Gentile's and the Jews ended in 70, what can I say? My Bible tells me that Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven until (all) his enemies have been made his footstool.

Desolations in the Chaldean is used in this verse and a few others as a Participle meaning the word partakes the properties of the noun. And as far as I can see, the Gentiles war with the Jews has been going on for almost 2000 years now. The war has not been against the land, but against the Jewish people as a whole. Well, if what you say about Jesus that he has returned, then we should be living in the Kingdom, the 3d Temple should be set up, the tribulation should be over, the church raptured, and all the enemies of the Jews should have been destroyed. Be not deceived, Jesus has not returned, no way, false teaching.
Phil
53
Why would baptism be parsed from faith in the five step thing.  Repentance would not be parsed from faith, and confessing would not be parsed from faith. All would be faith RESPONSES, not contradictory to faith. Just because the five step thing is associated with cofc folks does not mean that those five things are not faith responses. They ARE whether they are called steps, or faith responses. Peter had a 4 step program. Hearing, belief implied, repentance and baptism. Though I have no doubt that the 3000 also confessed Jesus with their lips.

It does parse faith from baptism.  One only look at the overemphasis on baptism from the cofc to see that.  Five seperate steps does that in its very nature.
54
Theology Forum / Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Last post by Jaime on Yesterday at 16:50:36 »
Why would baptism be parsed from faith in the five step thing.  Repentance would not be parsed from faith, and confessing would not be parsed from faith. All would be faith RESPONSES, not contradictory to faith. Just because the five step thing is associated with cofc folks does not mean that those five things are not faith responses. They ARE whether they are called steps, or faith responses. Peter had a 4 step program. Hearing, belief implied, repentance and baptism. Though I have no doubt that the 3000 also confessed Jesus with their lips.
55
So a sinners prayer is a work? Heck if baptism is, confessing with our lips is absolutely a work using the same criteria. That would be a wrong criteria. Both are faith responses to the free gift we can’t earn or merit.

I am saying the sinners prayer and five steps functionally make baptism into a work by parsing baptism from faith.
56
Theology Forum / Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Last post by Jaime on Yesterday at 16:39:02 »
So a sinners prayer is a work? Heck if baptism is, confessing with our lips is absolutely a work using the same criteria. That would be a wrong criteria. Both are faith responses to the free gift we can’t earn or merit.

Good works, salvation by works and faith responses are NOT synonyms. No use in talking anout them as if the are or could be.
57
Before the idolatry at Mount Sinai God never commanded Priests, Levites, animal slaughter or burnt offerings.  The levites led the apostasy because God had abandoned them to worship the starry host: whatever the Civil-Military-Clergy did was defacto Babylonian because God sentenced them to captivity and death or scattering.  God did not command any temple which allowed the clergy to control Him but He tabnernacled outside with His godly Israelites who attended synagogue or School of the Word and did not go to Jerusalem for congregational worship..

Ezek 44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me,

    when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me
    after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

Ezek 44:11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

Ezek 44:12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.

Ezek 44:13 And they shall NOT come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

Ezek 44:14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

    H5656 ab-o-daw', ab-o-daw' From H5647 ; work of any kind:&emdash;act, bondage, + bondservant, effect, labour, ministering (-try), office, service (-ile, -itude), tillage, use, work, X wrough

    H5647 Abad aw-bad' A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.:&emdash; X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.

Josephus knew that the Levites had destroyed Israel the first time and WERE READY to do it again:

6. Now as many of the Levites, (26) which is a tribe of ours, as were singers of hymns, persuaded the king to assemble a sanhedrim, and to give them leave to wear linen garments, as well as the priests for they said that this would be a work worthy the times of his government, that he might have a memorial of such a novelty, as being his doing.

Nor did they fail of obtaining their desire; for the king, with the suffrages of those that came into the sanhedrim, granted the singers of hymns this privilege, that they might lay aside their former garments, and wear such a linen one as they desired; and as a part of this tribe ministered in the temple, he also permitted them to learn those hymns as they had besought him for.

Now all this was contrary to the laws of our country, which, whenever they have been transgressed, we have never been able to avoid the punishment of such transgressions
.


In Genesis 49 God cursed the Levites and God later abandoned them to worship the starry host. Acts 7 and many other places say that God never commanded animal sacrifices or the holocaust of animal or Goats. God does not live in temples made by human hands nor by the works of human hands.  If God had commanded a literal house when He promised David a FAMILY He allowed three perfectly good ones to be destroyed along with most of the priests who refused to obey.

I believe that the New Testament defines that "perfect time" to execute that period used to separate those preserved FROM fire and those preserved FOR fire.
58
Whatever scripture says, like Norton indicated if we think baptism earns or merits us any part of salvation we are wrong and are making baptism a work. Which it is NOT scripturally.

But it often becomes one as a result of garbage doctrines like the sinners prayer or five steps of salvation.
59
Theology Forum / Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Last post by Jaime on Yesterday at 16:13:56 »
Rella, in the context James was using it he was further discussing faith without works is DEAD, non-existent. It is NOT about salvation by works. A working faith is a saving faith, not salvation by works. At any rate baptism IS NOT in that category. Why? Because baptism doesn’t earn any part of salvation. It is not in the category of good works. It is a faith response just as repentance and confessing are. They also are not good works in the context of this James verse.
60
jaime

. Lets talk about Rom 9:11. It refutes a comment made by someone earlier !

jaime

 Lets talk about Rom 9:11.

Let's not.

If you want to talk about Romans 9:11, start a thread about it.
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