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91
I'm not familiar with Billy Graham or Tim LaHaye sharing that stance as, for example, it would seem to be at odds with Tim LaHaye's Pre-Millennial Rapture of the church stance.  Francis Schaefer was the first I knew of and then I found that Pat Robertson is Dominionist.

I got this quote on Lehaye's dominionism from Gary Demar's article, "Will the Real Anti-Prophets Please Stand Up?"

"If we sit back and let the secularizers continue to dominate the government, the courts, the media, and education, [our religious] guarantees will be lost. Fortunately, a groundswell of concerned citizens is getting involved. They are becoming so informed that they will wrest control of this nation from the hands of the secularizers and place it back into the hands of those who founded this nation, citizens who had a personal and abiding faith in the God of the Bible." [Tim LaHaye, Faith of Our Founding Fathers (Colorado Springs, CO: Master Books, 1994), 15.]

I don't recall where I read the same about Billy Graham, but I do recall he had a similar view to Pat Robertson and, maybe, Chuck Colson.

::smile::
92
Can you at least tell us the name so we can look it up?

93
End Times Forum / Re: Pope Gregory, Leo, and the 1290 days.
« Last post by John 8:32 on Today at 09:14:12 AM »
After 500 years as slaves in Egypt, God called the Israelites out of Egypt in order to fulfil those promises. The first stage was to form them into a nation.

Where do you get 500 years from?  Israel was delivered from Egypt 430 years to the day from the time they entered...

Exo 12:40  Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
Exo 12:41  And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

Now they were not slaves for 430 years, more like about 200...

Gen 41:39  And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:
Gen 41:40  Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
Gen 41:41  And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:42  And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;
Gen 41:43  And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:44  And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

Joseph was second only to Pharaoh.  Israel was given choice land, Goshen and they lived free for a long time.  Finally...

Exo 1:6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Exo 1:7  And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.

This did not occur in fifteen minutes, it had to be at least 70 years or more.  More makes the most sense...

Exo 1:8  Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
Exo 1:9  And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:

Israel had grown from a Father and twelve sons to a nation more populous than Egypt.  This did not happen overnight. Also notice in verse 8 that this king did not know Joseph.  Joseph was the savior of Egypt during the drought and famine (there is a type there that is not germane to the discussion at hand).  He was certainly known and remembered for a period of time after his death.

So the time spent in captivity was certainly not 500 years and was not even 430 years.  Let's reread Ex 12:40...

Exo 12:40  Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.

What we find here is that there sojourning was 430 years.  They also dwelt in Egypt.  The verse does not say they were sojourning in Egypt for 430 years.

Anyhoo, my apologies to the OP, this is totally off subject.
94
Father God, thank You for this day, and for the privilege of praying with Winsome and the others for his wife and her upcoming medical procedures. Be with the medical professionals that are charged with her care and with Winsome as he puts his faith in You. Thank You Father for answered prayers. We pray through the matchless and powerful name of Jesus. Amen.
95
End Times Forum / Re: Pope Gregory, Leo, and the 1290 days.
« Last post by John 8:32 on Today at 08:53:00 AM »
Here is a bit more explanation:

 In God’s plan of salvation for mankind, God made a covenant with Abraham and gave him promises that his descendants would become a nation – a kingdom – with its own land.
 
After 500 years as slaves in Egypt, God called the Israelites out of Egypt in order to fulfil those promises. The first stage was to form them into a nation.
 
At Sinai he made a covenant with them and gave them a set of laws. Those laws were a mixture of moral, social and ceremonial laws. That set of laws was specific to those under that covenant. Of course it included moral laws that were applicable to others. But that codification of such moral laws was only given to those under that covenant.
 
I live in England and there are laws against murder here. But if I were to go to France and murder someone there, I would not be prosecuted under English law but under French law. English law does not apply to me in France but French law applies to me.
 
We are not under the Sinai Covenant. We are under the New Covenant with its own set of laws.
Yes, murder is included in those new set of laws (e.g. Mt 5: 21-22, 1Jn 3:15)
Yes, adultery is included in those new set of laws (e.g. Mt 5:27-28, Heb 13:4)
 
But nowhere in the New Testament will you find a prohibition against making images.

So if you use the word image instead of idol that is not the same thing?

You are confusing the Laws of England and France with the Laws of Almighty God.  Murder was a sin before the first man ever trod the earth...

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

By your line of reasoning, breaking the Ten Commandments is not sin for a Gentile.  So, the beheadings carried out by ISIL are not sin?  After all, they are not Israelites but rather Gentiles.

96
Theology Forum / Re: No Law/ No Transgression
« Last post by John 8:32 on Today at 08:48:25 AM »
No law, no transgression, no need for justification, no need for a gospel.

IN one sense that is moot.  No covenant = no salvation. 

So if you are without a covenant (which always has rules - a "law") there can be no salvation.

Interesting that someone dredged this thread up after 12 years without a post .....

Very good point.  The Covenant (whether the Old or New) is an agreement.  The Law is the terms and conditions of the Covenant.

The Old covenant had a "law" that man must do in order to receive its benefits. If man did XYZ then God would do XYZ.
In the New covenant what are its demands that man must do?
The covenant that God made with Abraham, what did Abraham have to do. What did God demand of him?

Gen 17:1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2  And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Rom 4:1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham walked "perfectly" before God. He was not sinless, he was a sinner. His perfect walk was in his simply believing every word God spoke to him.

Well, let's see, is salvation conditional?  Let's ask the author...

Mat 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Will salvation be given to those who do not keep the Commandments?

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is the result of sin?  Death.

What then, is sin?

1Jn 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

But don't we all sin?

1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What is the recourse?

1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heb 4:14  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So, does Commandment keeping earn eternal life?

Rom 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We do not earn salvation by works (Commandment keeping) but salvation is conditional upon obedience...

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We are sealed for salvation by the Holy Spirit.  To whom does God give the Holy Spirit?

Act 5:32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Finally...

Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Wilfull, deliberate sin produces eternal death (Rom6:23).  A sin one commits and repents of, throws himself on the mercy of God and receives forgiveness is covered by the sacrifice of Christ.  Yet we are admonished not to sin...

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


97
Theology Forum / Re: God actually chooses who will be drawn to Jesus.
« Last post by DaveW on Today at 08:47:27 AM »
Quote from: Red Baker
Quote from: TruthScientist
How do you get into the covenant?
We are chosen by the will of God to be included in the new covenant~a covenant secured by the promises of God;  promises of grace for the children of his promises, through the obedience and death of his Son, Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:13-10:39; Galatians 2:16-4:31, etc.
thank you RB...
And how do you know if you are "... chosen by the will of God to be included in the new covenant..." or not?

Maybe you think you are; only to find out at the end that in reality you are not.
surely you know if you believe in the blood of Jesus, God certainly does...  if one never seeks to know Him according to His word I am sure that they probably will not have steadfast assurance...

Reform theology says that the list of who was in and who was out was formed before the foundation of the world.  That means  that no matter how much "believing" I do, no matter how much grace I claim, no matter how much I am devoted to His word; If I ain't on the list it is all for naught.  I come to the end to be greeted with "Depart from Me I never knew you."  Please note it is not whether I know HIM; it is whether He knows me. (i.e. on His list)

I see from that passage in Matt 7 that even someone who thinks they have all kinds of "assurance," really does not have a chance.

This was addressed to Red Baker who says he is a follower of Reform theology.
98
Theology Forum / Re: So why do you think some churches are...
« Last post by Willie T on Today at 08:43:17 AM »
So, then.... we have to end up determining that people who stick with believing that, for instance, the KJV is the Bible as The Holy Spirit intended it to be, set and unchangeable, are mistaken........

The "Bible as The Holy Spirit intended it to be" can ONLY be in the autograph original manuscripts.  Period. No translation can do that; and English is one of the worst languages, anyway.

Quote
since it's just been stated that we have cannot presume the individual luxury to decide when a certain word gets to be interpreted one way, and when it gets to be interpreted another way........ yet, here we are, doing just that.

Intrepretation and translation must of necessity always be ina state of flux because living languages change over time. I am not yet 60 years old (almost) and have seen US English change word meanings several times in my lifetime.
This sounds good in the ideal scenario where each of us learns an ancient language that is essentially unknown today, and if we had access to the original text... that we were certain were actually the original text.

But we have none of that.  Yes, we "trust" that the people who say this or that is what the original language meant... but they don't really know.  They are making their best guess....... and can only be as positive as every other generation of translators was also positive before them.

Most of us just have some variation of an English Bible to go by.  And that is it.

True, we can believe the Pope, and follow him.  Or we can believe Joseph Smith, or John Calvin, or Wigglesworth, or any one of a thousand other people who say a particular passage only means what THEY see it to mean.................................

Or, we can individually interpret the Bible as the Holy Spirit leads us (again, individually) to understand what that passage means.  As I see it, this is how the Bible is meant to be read and understood.  NOT as the leader of a particular denomination tells us we are to collectively believe.

For instance:  "Love your neighbor...... as you love yourself."  How do we place but one single meaning on that?"  I get up early and go workout.  I drive older cars, never buying new.  I eat only certain foods, and will not abuse my body with other stuff.

Well, if I really "love my neighbor as myself", shouldn't I be beating on his door at 5:30AM to get up and join me at the gym?  After all, that is what I feel is good for everyone.  Same thing with him driving a new car every year.... or his diet.

No.  Not at all.  The spirit helps me see "loving", a certain way, and the same Spirit helps him see "loving" as something else.  And you see the meaning of that verse as something completely different than either of us see.

Now, are we to determine WE are right...... or specifically, ME?  That says, in effect, that we have listened to, and been guided by, the Holy Spirit, and all the other people obviously must NOT have done so.  Or (HORRERS) maybe are THEY right, and I (you, us) am the one who did not glean the TRUE meaning of the Bible in this case?

Of course I only used one small example here, but this same concept has to apply to every verse in the book, or we are just picking and choosing as we deem it appropriate and convenient.  (Again, making individual and personal decisions about scripture.)
99
Theology Forum / Re: So why do you think some churches are...
« Last post by DaveW on Today at 08:18:10 AM »
Aren't you saying, in effect, that people such as the Catholics are correct because they are told not to try to individually determine what the Bible means, (and, for the most part, they don't), and that the interpretation that the Pope (or whoever) gives them is the correct, and the ONLY, way a particular passage may be read?

And there is the rub.  I do not know Koine Greek much, but I do have a minimal understanding of Hebrew.  Every line of Hebrew text can be taken several different ways; multiple layers of meaning.  That is inherent in all ancient Semetic languages.  And guess what?  The NT writers were WELL VERSED in Hebrew aned Aramaic. I would suspect their writing in NT scripture also has the same multiple levels of meaning.

So for anyone to say this intrepretation is the ONLY valid translation is already wrong. But if you want to be in on the intrepreting of Scripture - follow Paul's advice to Timothy:  "Study to show yourself approved."  That would mean learning the original languages and culture.
100
Theology Forum / Re: No Law/ No Transgression
« Last post by Curtis on Today at 08:18:08 AM »
No law, no transgression, no need for justification, no need for a gospel.

IN one sense that is moot.  No covenant = no salvation. 

So if you are without a covenant (which always has rules - a "law") there can be no salvation.

Interesting that someone dredged this thread up after 12 years without a post .....

Very good point.  The Covenant (whether the Old or New) is an agreement.  The Law is the terms and conditions of the Covenant.

The Old covenant had a "law" that man must do in order to receive its benefits. If man did XYZ then God would do XYZ.
In the New covenant what are its demands that man must do?
The covenant that God made with Abraham, what did Abraham have to do. What did God demand of him?

Gen 17:1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2  And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Rom 4:1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham walked "perfectly" before God. He was not sinless, he was a sinner. His perfect walk was in his simply believing every word God spoke to him.
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