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Theology Forum / Re: The Cross of Christ
« Last post by Thaddaeus on Today at 06:33:47 AM »

You have questioned my statement that "God will take them home before taking their salvation."

It took me 5 hours searching through 4 years of Bible school study to find this. At 58 years young my memory is slipping a bit. But nevertheless here it is.

1Cor. 5:1-5
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

There is nothing in this text that says God took this man so He would not lose salvation.
This is the definition of excommunication.  Paul evicted this man from the Church.  The purpose was to impress this person that He was in jeopardy of losing eternal life if Christ would have actually taken his life at that time.  One is excommunicated so that they can realize their status, repent and return to the fold before it is to late.

As I stated before, all one needs to understand is the fall of Adam.  Your view cannot be found in the actions of God regarding Adam who was in a relationship with God, the very same way as we.
General Discussion Forum / Re: My Favorite Uncle!
« Last post by geronimo on Today at 06:20:15 AM »
Sounds like a great guy. It's even fun to say "uncleArkie" heh. Congratulations to the Post Office
Theology Forum / Re: What is atonement. . .
« Last post by winsome on Today at 05:23:11 AM »
1.  What is atonement?  No where do we find eternal life given within the atonement. The atonement is in the blood, destroying the breach between believer and God that separates them.  Therefore, the atonement as given to Moses by God was for the forgiveness and cleansing of Israel from their sins, but for what purpose? This will be the next point that we will examine.

So far from the truth!  When men make such a statement like this, then we conclude with Peter:

2 Peter 3:5a

  For this they willingly are ignorant of....."

Men chose to be willingly ignorant of certain biblical truths, because of their dislike to the doctrine of a particular truth taught by the Spirit of God........


Why do you constantly leap into abuse? If you think SM is in error then point out the error. Starting with abuse is not productive and leads the thread in a downhill path.

 So, I agree with you here too...covenant abiding does not give one eternal life, it is only a prerequisite because from cover to cover, God demonstrates in the history of Israel that He works in redemption through covenant - always. God does not give any man any thing outside of covenant or obedience leading to covenant abiding (such as in Abraham's case - he followed God in obedience first and then God offered him the covenant; Gen. 12:1-4). Abraham obeyed and so God gave him the promise, which He later confirmed through the covenant - no one enters covenant except by oath of obedience, that has not changed with the new covenant. But, covenant does not give life, only utilizing the covenant for what was made for does, and that is engaging God in an intimate and personal relationship, being united with Him.

I query the above because I think you are being a little over dogmatic on the point I have emboldened. I think God does make provision for people to enter into a relationship with him outside of a covenant; Enoch being a prime example of this.
As you said earlier in the post  “From Genesis to Revelation, the Scriptures teach that God shares His life with those who are in union with Him. We see this not so much spelled out as we do glean it from examples...Enoch walked in union with God and so God took Him home to be with him…
I’m not aware that Enoch was in any covenant with God.
Moreover Paul says
And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. (Acts 17:26-27)
Heb 11:6 says For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
In Acts 10 we have the centurion Cornelius “a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God.” (vs 2). He had a relationship with God, and the Holy Spirit was poured out upon him (vs 44), yet he did not come into the New Covenant until he was baptised (vs 48).
I think the situation is more complex than you are allowing.
It seems that giving in to the temptation has created a false sense of sex, perhaps from an underlying feeling of guilt, or disappointment in the experience itself, but when one waits for a partner in marriage, intimacy and sex itself are truly beautiful!
Theology Forum / Re: What is atonement. . .
« Last post by Alan on Today at 04:49:04 AM »
Just to be clear here, the atonement offered through sacrifices at the alter by a priest interceding on man's behalf "covered" the sin, but did not wash them away. No amount of sacrificial bulls, goats, or lambs could remove the sin, nor could the ritual change a mans heart to enter into the fulness of God.

Wish Christ however, we are given the grace to meet Him face to face, to ask for forgiveness, repent, and have our sins "washed away completely" (removed) through His perfect finished work on the cross.

Jesus is the perfect sacrificial lamb, and through His sacrifice we have been given the grace to enter into direct fellowship with God and to be reconciled to Him.

1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Theology Forum / Re: What is atonement. . .
« Last post by Red Baker on Today at 04:20:34 AM »
1.  What is atonement?  No where do we find eternal life given within the atonement. The atonement is in the blood, destroying the breach between believer and God that separates them.  Therefore, the atonement as given to Moses by God was for the forgiveness and cleansing of Israel from their sins, but for what purpose? This will be the next point that we will examine.

So far from the truth!  When men make such a statement like this, then we conclude with Peter:

2 Peter 3:5a

  For this they willingly are ignorant of....."

Men chose to be willingly ignorant of certain biblical truths, because of their dislike to the doctrine of a particular truth taught by the Spirit of God. Eternal life is without question secured by Christ's atonement, and by no other means whatsoever, that man wants others to believe in~such as man enduring unto the end by his good works! Make no mistake about it, God's elect, and them alone, are capable of doing godly works that pleases God~not only capable, but their overall life are known to be a life of true holiness and faith.

1 Peter 2:24

  "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness."

I ask: What does it means scripturally to say that we  "being dead to sins"? Being meaning now~dead to sins~by what means are we? Christ's seed are dead to sins by his holy body!  We are dead as far as sins having any claims upon us.  We are dead to sins and God's law, by the body of Jesus Christ.  Romans 7:1-3~When he was resurrected, from the dead, so were also all of his BODY! Is not the life of the Head the life of the members of the body?  Yes indeed.  "To be 'dead to sins' is to be delivered from the condemning power of sin; or, in other words, from the condemning sentence of the law, under which, if a man lies, he cannot be holy; and from which, if a man is delivered, his holiness is absolutely secured. Romans 5-8;  Ephesians 2:5-6

Your understanding of the atonement of Christ is not from the scriptures and Paul's gospel that he preached. God sent His Son here in order that  the punishment of His peoples' guilt should be inflicted upon their Head~and that the righteous requirements of the law - perfect obedience - might be met by Him for us.  We were "in Christ" our Surety from the foundation of the world, or from eternity.  In the fulness of time, Christ was born under the law, and obeyed the law perfectly not only "for" our good, but so that His obedience should become actually ours by imputation; and thus Christ's atonement purchased for us a title for the world to come.

So much could be said.  I am not going away and allow you to belittle the atonement made by Jesus Christ for the sins of his people.
Apologetics Forum / Re: I might be losing my faith.
« Last post by chosenone on Today at 04:18:30 AM »
What I mean by "this seems wrong" is - my consciensce (which is put there by God, right?  That's where we get morality from?) tells me that not allowing these people in the church over an issue that they didn't choose seems exclusionary.  Worse than that - not allowing them to have marriage.  If it is not good for us to be alone, why are we forcing them to be alone?  My sense of morality tells me this is wrong.  So now I am wondering....does my morality really come from God?  Because it is telling me something different than what God seems to say!!  This is causing a bit of a faith crises for me.  I always assumed my sense of right and wrong was put there by God.  Now, my sense of right/wrong and God seem to be at odds.  Obviously my sense of right and wrong are not from God then.  If that is the case, my faith is in question.  So I have been praying, actually begging, for God to tell me He is real.  I pray that Jesus reveal himself to me, and it has been nothing but silence, and I have been looking for answers everywhere.  I feel I am slipping away.  And this scares me.

 No one is saying they arent welcome in the church, but God has set the boundaries when it comes to sex. Its no different for single people in the church(of which there are many, especially women because of the lack of male believers) They have to be celibate so what is the difference?
Sometimes we need to accept that God knows best. He made us, and whatever WE think or want. He is wiser and He can see the full picture.   

Get the book called 'What some of you were' edited by Christopher Keane. It tells the stories of many who were gay who have been touched and saved and healed by Jesus. I think it will help you to see that God is able to save and change anyone.   
Apologetics Forum / Re: I might be losing my faith.
« Last post by Peace Warrior on Today at 04:07:19 AM »
I am friends with many homosexuals. ...
Mike, anytime you begin to isolate the SINNER "problem," from a SIN "problem," you set yourself up to fail as far as juxtaposing such a cognition to the doctrines of the Holy Bible. On a strictly psychological level, which I base the following on the opening remark of your thread starting post (quoted above), you are allowing yourself to become involved with the sinner versus sin conundrum.

However, looking to Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, Who avoided this kind of trap entirely by asking someone whom wanted to gain eternal life, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

We are ALL under sin, which includes you and all of your homosexual friends. The "problem" is NOT the sinner, the "problem" is sin. Period.

...They are as sure about their homosexuality as I am about my heterosexuality.  They didn't choose it, they can't just "switch" even though some have tried.  I take them at their word.  So why would God say they are sinners - they desire monogamous loving relationships (not promiscuity) and they can't help how they are?  How are they intrinsically sinful?  Why would God do that?  I truly don't get it and it is a stumbling block for me because even though it's not my problem as a heterosexual, I think it says something about God and I care about them as humans.  ...
(emphases mine)

Please see all the times you spoke collectively as apposed to individually about the group and not the individual? Tell me Mike, do you know the supreme spokesperson that speaks for each and every homosexual on the planet? Or, does each individual homosexual hold to the exact same worldview? (rhetorical questions)  Mike, I humbly submit that you have a very limited microcosm from which to derive information and this too is affecting your thinking on the matter. 

If it were me, I would talk about LIARS. Personally speaking, I have more problems with liars than I do homosexuals.  Any day of the week, and twice on Sunday, I'll take a homosexual that tells the truth over a heterosexual that lies. Oops, see what I am doing Mike?
...As humans, we have consciences, a sense of what is right and wrong.  We believe that is put there by God, as we are created in His image and likeness, and he is the source of morality. ...
Wholeheartedly agree.
... So with that being true, why does my conscience seem to disagree strongly (register as “this is WRONG”) with how the Bible characterizes homosexuals as sinners? ...
Again, the Holy Bible characterizes, to use your term, all but One as sinners. The "problem" is not sinners, the "problem" is sin.

Your conscious is in error if it does not also characterize lying as sin, and liars as sinners, which in fact, when the Holy Bible list things that are abominations to Jehovah, it specifically mentions lying twice and homosexuality once. This fact should give all those fat-cat, religious hypocrites serious pause when meditating on what Jehovah hates, for from the hermeneutical standpoint alone, it appears Jehovah hates liars twice as much as homosexuals, but I digress.

...They can’t help how they are!?!...
Maybe not in and of themselves Mike, no, a homosexual might not be able to help his/her self if the goal is to stop participating in homosexuality; however, if the goal is to obtain eternal life through Jesus Christ, then what matters is that the homosexual hears the Word of the Most High God and believes on Jesus.
...Why would they choose a life that brings such discrimination on purpose, if they could just be straight and not have to deal with all the troubles?  I am now doubting that our sense of right and wrong come from God.  I fear I am losing a major ground for my faith. 

I have been riddled with this and other such doubts lately.  I fear I am losing my faith, which will inevitably lead me back to addiction.  Any help on this would be great. ...
Stop wrongly perceiving the "problem" to be sinners and start rightly identifying it as a sin "problem."
... I have been praying, and have had zero response.  Now I fear there is a reason for that.
For what it is worth, when I am ever praying over and over and over a matter or problem in my life, and I do not hear or receive a direct answer, directly  from the LORD, I have learned that Jehovah is speaking and answering, but sometimes He is speaking quietly while I am still talking, which causes me to miss what He is saying.

At other times, after my prayers or questions, when I do not hear or receive a direct answer, directly  from the LORD, He chose to speak to through someone else, and I just didn't listen (for whatever reason).

Just my $0.02


Post Script: Why the quotation marks around the word "problem" each time I used it in this context?

Because to those who understand the difference between sinner and sin are able to joyfully daily walk humbly in the manifest Grace and Mercy of the Most High God. They realize there is not really a problem in this regard. Please know that this is NOT from an arrogant standpoint, but rather just the opposite. It is from the humble standpoint that Jesus' Blood destroyed the problem of separation between Jehovah and mankind and now through that same Blood we are able to run boldly to His Throne of Grace and receive both forgiveness and deliverance. Simply put, the "problem" was solved through Jesus Christ.
By John Johnson ∙ Published November 22, 2014 ∙ Newser

Scientists know that humans were kicking around the lower altitudes of the Tibetan Peninsula around 10,000 years ago. Permanent settlements, however, didn't show up in the harsh higher altitudes until 3,600 years ago.

What happened that allowed ancient settlers to survive in a region nicknamed the "roof of the world"? They discovered barley, reports Science. Analysis of charred seeds suggests that humans figured out around that time that barley could be grown at 11,000 feet—unlike their previous staple of millet, reports the Washington Post.

"As barley is frost-hardy and cold-tolerant, it grows very well on the Tibetan Plateau even today," archaeologist Dongju Zhang of China's Lanzhou University tells Reuters.
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