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91
Theology Forum / Re: John 10.28
« Last post by Johnb on Yesterday at 07:49:07 PM »
The impossibility of apostasy in a Calvinistic doctrine that you love to condemn.

Here are a few more for you to explain away  Matt 13: 20,21; Mark 4:5-17; Luke 11:24-26;John15:6; Acts 7:39-432 Thes 2;3-12; I Tim 4:1,2;2 Tim 3:1-9 ; Heb. 6:4-8; Heb 10:26-30; just a few and even Paul was concerned he might fall away I Cor 9:27.
92
Theology Forum / Re: Performing Baptisms
« Last post by AVZ on Yesterday at 07:48:20 PM »

That's why baptism demands at least a basic understanding of the gospel, and a person that can measure that understanding.

Are you saying a person needs to pass a quiz before he can be baptized? I don't see that in scripture.

Well then, if you are of the opinion that even a basic understanding of the gospel is not necessary, or even some kind of standard...then should we just baptize anyone?
Lets say a murderer comes to you to be baptized, but he wants to remain murdering people...what say you?
Or lets say a Buddhist comes to you and wants to be baptized "just to be sure", and continue being a Buddhist...what say you?

If a person asks to be baptized and appears on the surface to be sincere and understand what he is getting himself into them I should not refuse to baptize him. Obviously, if a little kid or someone who has heard one sermon comes forward, I should suggest further study. If your hypothetical murderer asks to be baptized I can't know if he intends to keep on committing murder. if the Buddhist wants to be baptized and doesn't tell me he is just covering all the bases, I should accept him at face value.
Where in scripture do we find any questioning beyond "if thou believest, thou mayest"?
God does the judging, we don't.

Well then, if there are no standards..then why did Jesus sent the rich man on his way?
Of why does Paul say not to even eat with such a one?

What you are saying is that if someone claims to be a brother, you should baptize him...but not sit at the same table with him?
93
Preterist Forum / Re: A thought experiment for futurists...
« Last post by TonkaTim on Yesterday at 07:38:10 PM »
That which calls itself Israel today bears little resemblance to OT Israel--the nation whose power was completely shattered (Dan. 12) in A.D. 70.  Modern Israel's only commonality with OT Israel is its name.  It is a secular nation like every other nation in need of Christ.  The Church is Israel and Christians are God's only covenant people--they have been since Christ returned in A.D. 70 for His Bride.

Israel has never been referred to as His bride. The nation of Israel is compared to a wife.
Christians are referred to as His bride.
The covenant God has with Israel is a different covenant than what God has with Christians.

Does that mean the descendants of Israel can get to Heaven without Christ & there is a dual covenant gospel?
94
Theology Forum / Re: John 10.28
« Last post by revivin on Yesterday at 07:35:10 PM »
It is true that no man nor external circumstances can separate you from God.  However, you can turn your back and be lost.  Here is just one of the many places that teach this.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
They came to the knowledge of, even came to the very door of salvation, but they never walked in, but walked away. For someone to come that close to salvation and still walk away it would have been better in that instance to never having known salvation, because his Hell will be worse than otherwise. It would be better some other time he approach the gospel given to him.
95
Preterist Forum / Re: A thought experiment for futurists...
« Last post by AVZ on Yesterday at 07:32:53 PM »
That which calls itself Israel today bears little resemblance to OT Israel--the nation whose power was completely shattered (Dan. 12) in A.D. 70.  Modern Israel's only commonality with OT Israel is its name.  It is a secular nation like every other nation in need of Christ.  The Church is Israel and Christians are God's only covenant people--they have been since Christ returned in A.D. 70 for His Bride.

Israel has never been referred to as His bride. The nation of Israel is compared to a wife.
Christians are referred to as His bride.
The covenant God has with Israel is a different covenant than what God has with Christians.
96
Theology Forum / Re: John 10.28
« Last post by revivin on Yesterday at 07:30:45 PM »
John 10.28 says those who are saved "they shall never perish" yet some people I hear claim they are saved and yet could still perish. How can that be considering what John 10.28 says?
We can observe that this passage does NOT teach that once a person comes to Christ, he can never walk away from Christ and lay down his eternal life.
It says "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish" (John 10.28). It says nothing contrary to this.

They have eternal life now. And they will never perish. What is eternal is eternal. A person who is born-again has eternal life now. You can't be unborn physically just as you can't be unborn spiritually once saved. You can't go back into your mother's womb. You can't go back out of the cross. True salvation is given to those who receive Jesus' ransom and not only this, the correct ransom that keeps. Christians have given their lives to be kept. We can't keep ourselves saved that would be works or self-strength; likewise we can't leave that which we asked God to make permanent. That is the one and only Jesus I gave my life to. I can come before the Lord boldly because I am forever kept. Can you? What confidence do you have in being born-again a 1000 times and losing salvation 1001 times? I would go mad.



97
Theology Forum / Re: John 10.28
« Last post by Johnb on Yesterday at 07:26:35 PM »
It is true that no man nor external circumstances can separate you from God.  However, you can turn your back and be lost.  Here is just one of the many places that teach this.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
98
End Times Forum / Re: What Verses Support Amillennialism?
« Last post by TonkaTim on Yesterday at 07:25:37 PM »
How do you know the "gospel of the kingdom of God" is the 1000 years where Satan "should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20.3)? Are not the nations deceived still now with wars and rumors of wars? Whereas “the kingdom of God is righteous and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14.17). "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison" (Rev. 20.7). Was Satan in prison prior to Jesus? or is Satan in prison now with 10,000 children dying every day due to starvation? Overcomers in Christ "shall reign with him a thousand years" (v.6). Who is reigning over the nations now in the highest positions of government (2.26,27) certainly not believers? Could it be Jesus at the right hand of the Father does not mean He is reigning on earth for 1000 years right now?


Hi revivin, I have a question for you on this section of your commentary.

I ask because your statements leads one to think when the scriptures are speaking of nation or nations; they mean country or countries.

Here are links on the current definition of nation
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation

As we can see by examining the links the modern definition primarily does mean country. But it also means ethnic groups, tribes. When we look at the archaic/middle english we find it means tribe & is related to the word kin, which means clan or a common people.

Now when we look at Revelation 20:3 - http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-3.htm - we find the word that is translated into nations is ethnos - http://biblehub.com/greek/1484.htm - which means basically the same thing as the original older meaning of the word nations - ethnic groups, tribes, a common people (not regions/countries).

Considering when the Bible was translated into English the meaning would have been clear due to their understanding of the word during the middle-english speaking time (because the meaning of the word had not yet really changed to be a synonym for country/region) & in the original Greek.

Another example is the physical descendents of Jacob whom God renamed to Israel. The Twelve tribes are his children, they are the nations of Israel. Where ever they are in the world be it in Egypt, Canaan, Sinai, Moab, Syria, Parthia, etc they are & will remain those physical tribes & that physical nation whether they know who they are or not.

Now the question:

Is it possible through the death, resurrection of Jesus Christ the nations are no longer deceived because the Truth is in the world - The Gospel of Jesus Christ? Thus the binding of Satan & the deliverance of all the peoples under his influence (pagan false beliefs)  as the Gospel spreads throughout the world?
99
Theology Forum / Re: John 10.28
« Last post by SwordMaster on Yesterday at 07:16:23 PM »
John 10.28 says those who are saved "they shall never perish" yet some people I hear claim they are saved and yet could still perish. How can that be considering what John 10.28 says?


Lets see exactly what Jesus is saying here...

John 10:27-29
27   My sheep hear [1] My voice, and I know them, and they follow [2] Me.
28  I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, [3] and no one will snatch [4] them out of My hand.
29   My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch [5] them out of the Father's hand.

[1]  “hear” = akouo, basic meaning is “to hear.” It means to listen to with attention, to obey what they hear, to learn by listening to, to understand and comprehend. Taking what we know from the rest of Scripture, and what the grammar eludes to, the meaning of akouo in this verse is “to listen to and obey.”

[2]  “follow” = akoloutheo, meaning to attend to, to accompany, to follow one and his teachings, to cling to (meaning to cling to him in trusting faith and obedience).

[3]  “perish” = apollumi, meaning to destroy, be destroyed, or to perish. It is in the Second Aorist Middle Subjunctive, in this case meaning that one “will not be destroyed” or “will not perish.” The Middle voice indicates that the subject (“they”) is acting in some way upon themselves, they are doing something which prevents them from being destroyed or perishing. The Subjunctive mood indicates that this is NOT a done deal, making the assertion that this action is an uncertain possibility only because it is subject to some other condition.

[4]  “snatch” = harpazo, meaning to seize upon with force, to rob, to steal another’s property with violence.

[5]  “snatch” = harpazo, meaning to seize upon with force, to rob, to steal another’s property with violence.

A literal translation from the Greek, encompassing the Greek grammar imposed, reads more accurately as:

27  My sheep are those who listen and obey Me, and I know them, and they cling to me in obedient faith.
28  And I give them eternal life, and they might not perish as long as they meet the other obligations placed upon them, and no one can steal them by force out from My hand.
29  My Father, who gives them to Me, is greater than all, and no one has power to steal them by force out of His hand.

We can observe that this passage does NOT teach that once a person comes to Christ, he can never walk away from Christ and lay down his eternal life. It teaches that no one can take those that are His from Him, but when a person who is Christ’s decides that he no longer wants anything to do with Christ, he can walk away from Him. That is not stealing another’s property, that is His property deciding that he no longer wants to be His property.

Aside from the Greek grammar, we also have to take into account other Biblical Hermeneutic principles of interpreting the scriptures, such as the Covenant Principle. Every single NT passage of Scripture is New Covenant teaching, and is subject to covenant principles. Principle #4 states...

"The terms, stipulations, promises, blessings, benefits, and gifts of the covenant are only applicable to those who are participants in that specific covenant."

Therefore, if one enters into the New Covenant and remains abiding therein, he continues to have eternal life...but if he ceases to remain abiding in the New Covenant then he ceases to have eternal life. It is important for us to understand covenanting, for the NT Scriptures are NOT a testament, they are the New Covenant, subject to covenant principles, which those in Jesus' day understood full well. They understood the above because they lived in a covenantal society, which we here in the West do not...and unless we have had a good pastor or teacher in our churches, most Christians today in the US do not have a clue as to what the New Covenant really is and how it works, and therefore do not have the ability to interpret the NT Scriptures accurately most of the time.

I realize that is a sweeping statement...yet so was Martin Luther's when he nailed his thesis to the door. Just like in those days, some will accept the facts and some will not.

Blessings!

 ::preachit::

100
End Times Forum / Re: What Verses Support Amillennialism?
« Last post by revivin on Yesterday at 07:09:09 PM »
In Revelation 20 the 1,000 years describes the length of time for the binding of Satan in v.3 and the length of the reign of the souls of those who had been martyred for their faith in v.4. It does not literally describe the length of Jesus’ reign on the throne of His kingdom. Nor is there anything in this context that tells us definitively that Jesus is on the earth. Saying that Jesus physically reigns, start to finish, on the earth for 1,000 years in this chapter is an assumption, but such is not actually said.
The previous chapter speaks of the return of Jesus, the rider on the white horse, to earth so it follows Jesus is on earth in Rev. 20. Is Satan bound now? No. So verse 3 is referring to a future time of binding of Satan in the millennial kingdom. It says a 1000 years. In the original there are no chapters and verses.

Quote
All I can do is read the scriptures that teach that Jesus is now reigning on the throne of David. Trying to minutely define the kingdom the way you have above doesn't take away from the fact that Christ is now reigning as King on the throne over the kingdom. The following is Peter's testimony from Acts 2 and Paul's tie-in:

This is the prophecy of the Messiah ruling on the throne of David, recorded in 2 Samuel 7:12-17:
“When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. “I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. “Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ” In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David. (see also Isaiah 9:6-7).
Jesus is reigning at the right hand of the Father, but not on earth. Remember, He gave the Holy Spirit to indwell. First Jesus came with authority of the cross then when He returns, He reigns with power, with a rod of iron with His overcomers (Rev. 2.26,27). Nobody can say this is happening today. Hence, the future millennial reign to come.

Revelation 19 precedes Revelation 20. Jesus returns in Rev. 19. In Rev. 20 He reigns for 1000 years on earth. During the 1000 years Satan is bound and then let loose a short while at the end to show man still had yet some hidden sin in the 1000 years, that Satan will never repent, and God's good pleasure.

So the 1000 years can't be now because there are still wars and rumors of wars and the 1000 years can't be eternity future. The 1000 years must be after the church age but before eternity future, because Satan is let loose a short while at the end of the 1000 years.
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