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91
Theology Forum / Re: Only One Gospel
« Last post by Michael2012 on Today at 04:59:15 AM »
The first mention of the Gospel:

Gen 3:15  I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Thanks for responding to the topic. Would you care sharing us your thoughts/answers to the following:

Gal.1:6-9
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Is there only one gospel? If so, what do you say it is?

In the passage cited above, can you give your understanding and commentary?

What do you say Paul meant by a 'different gospel' which he refers to in verse 6, which v.7 says is not another gospel? How is a 'different gospel' not 'another gospel'?

What do you say is a perverted gospel of Christ (v.7)?

What do you say Paul meant by 'any other gospel' which he refers to in verses 8-9?

Thanks.

I'm not sure why you're asking me these questions.   Paul taught one Gospel and I agree with it.   There is no salvation except by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.    Christ's death, burial and resurrection are God's own provision to reconcile mankind.   Any claimed Gospel without the emphasis of God's own provision is a false Gospel.   Our righteousness is imputed to us from Christ.

The false teachings that Paul faced were from the legalist Judaizers who were trying to enforce law upon the Gentile converts, and these same Judaizers were claiming their righteousness to be dependent upon their being descendants of Abraham (covenantal nomism).   Legalists believe that they earn their salvation by their works or some other thing, such as their heritage.  Mormons area good example.   They believe that they are the True Israelites.   

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/ChurchHistory/GeorgeWhitefield/Whitefield_TheSeedOfTheWoman_Gen3_15__Sermon1.pdf

The above is a link to George Whitefield's sermon on Genesis 3:15.   I found this sermon just awhile ago.    Whitefield said this:

For this is the first promise that was made of a Savior to the apostate race of Adam. We generally look for Christ only in the New Testament; but Christianity, in one sense, is very near as old as the creation.  

My emphasis in Bible interpretation is one that is promoted by Biblical Theology...a Christ-centered approach to interpretation.    As Whitefield said, most of us don't even see Christ in the Old Testament.  Well, Jesus told the Jews that they rejected Him because they had rejected what Moses had said of Him.   In this sense our Savior was rejected even before He came.   The many apocryphal, non-canonical writings about Messiah did not require that Messiah be as Jesus.   They did not seek a divine Savior.   They still reject Isaiah 53 as being about Jesus but believe it is about the Israelites.   Paul said the offspring of Abraham was not a people but was Christ.   

On the question "Is there only one gospel?", I gather your answer to be in the affirmative, coming from your statement "Paul taught one Gospel and I agree with it".

On the question " what do you say it is?", I gather this to be your answer:

Quote
There is no salvation except by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.    Christ's death, burial and resurrection are God's own provision to reconcile mankind.   Any claimed Gospel without the emphasis of God's own provision is a false Gospel.   Our righteousness is imputed to us from Christ.

Did I get you right, that is what is the one Gospel for you?

You speak of a "false" Gospel. May I ask: Does scripture mentions of a "false" Gospel or of a "true" Gospel'?

On the question "What do you say is a perverted gospel of Christ (v.7)?", I did not quite gather any answer from your post. In Gal.1:7, Paul mentions of some who trouble the Christians in Galatia, who wants to pervert the gospel of Christ, which implies of such 'perverted gospel of Christ'. In relation and with reference to this then, could you tell me what to you is a perverted gospel of Christ?

On the question,  "What do you say Paul meant by 'any other gospel' which he refers to in verses 8-9?", I also have not quite gather any answer from your post. In relation and with reference to the topic passage Gal.1:6-9 then, could you tell me what to you is meant by Paul when he speaks of 'any other gospel'?

Now, with regards the question, "What do you say Paul meant by a 'different gospel' which he refers to in verse 6, which v.7 says is not another gospel?", I did not quite gather anything from your post either. In verse 6, Paul mentions of a 'DIFFERENT gospel', which in v.7 says is not 'ANOTHER gospel'. What do you understand by that? A 'DIFFERENT gospel', yet not 'ANOTHER gospel'?
92
Theology Forum / Re: Only One Gospel
« Last post by Michael2012 on Today at 04:30:10 AM »
Would you be even kinder to share your answers to the following: What do you say Paul meant by a 'different gospel' which he refers to in verse 6, which v.7 says is not another gospel? What do you say Paul meant by 'any other gospel' which he refers to in verses 8-9?
Michael, I have already given you an answer to this question right here:
Quote
but in a short summary here it is: When any person preaches to others and ADDS any WORKS to what man must do before that man can be born again and inherit eternal life, then they at once are guilty of perverting the true gospel of FREE JUSTIFICATION by the grace of God through the obedience of Christ. What would be considered works you may be thinking? ANY and ALL works that falls under this commandment: "This DO and live, SINNED and die".  Adam and we in him were under the FIRST covenant that had that commandment and we all became servants of the devil. Jesus Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh for sin and condemned sin in the flesh by living in perfect obedience to the law of God in thought, word and deed from conception to death, and became the perfect offering and sacrifice for our sins. But there is much more to it than what I have said so far~we were chosen IN Christ before the foundation of the world and were members of his body while he lived in this world~ and what he did, we did, when he was put to death so were we, and when he arose from the dead, so DID we, and where he now sits in the heavenly places at God's right hand there do we now sit legally before the law of God! Now to add any works that we MUST do before these things become true, then whether one admits it or not that person has been bewitched with another gospel. There are NO works that we must do, or can do, in order to be born again and enjoy the free gift of eternal life~NOT even FAITH on our part~faith is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit~faith is the evidence of one whom God has according to his grace quickened to life on the behalf of his Son, Jesus Christ. So many have been taught that we must excise faith before we can be born again, yet man is dead in trespasses and sins, unable to believe, besides, he is AT ENMITY against God by wicked works in his mind...to be an enemy is one thing, but to be AT ENMITY is much worst. I'll stop..RB
Any and all teaching that said that man can contribute in any way to his LEGAL JUSTIFICATION by any act that man has an ACTIVE PART IN that person is guilty of bringing another gospel into the word of God and has at once rejected free justification BASED UPON the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ for the ONLY means of man having his sins legally forgiving before the God of heaven. EVEN FAITH on man's part has not one thing to do with that man being justified LEGALLY before the law of God...ONLY the obedience and faith of the Son of God are the only means of FREE JUSTIFICATION~period!

On the question "Is there only one gospel?", you said "Yes there is only one true gospel given to us from the word of God". You said 'true gospel'. May I ask: Does scripture mentions of a 'true gospel' or of a 'false gospel'? 

On the question " what do you say it is?", I gather, in one sentence, that to you, it is justification BY the faith OF Jesus Christ or what you say is the gospel of FREE JUSTIFICATION by the grace of God through the obedience of Christ.

On the question "What do you say is a perverted gospel of Christ (v.7)?, I gather your answer to be that, a perverted gospel of Christ, is any preaching, that ADDS any WORKS to what man must do before that man can be born again and inherit eternal life. Did I get you right?   

On the question,  "What do you say Paul meant by 'any other gospel' which he refers to in verses 8-9?", I gather that your answer to this is that, it is any and all teaching that said that man can contribute in any way to his LEGAL JUSTIFICATION by any act that man has an ACTIVE PART IN. Did I get you right?

Now, with regards the question, "What do you say Paul meant by a 'different gospel' which he refers to in verse 6, which v.7 says is not another gospel?", I did not quite gather anything from your post. In verse 6, Paul mentions of a 'DIFFERENT gospel', which in v.7 says is not 'ANOTHER gospel'. What do you understand by that? A 'DIFFERENT gospel', yet not 'ANOTHER gospel'?
93
I wish.
94
Theology Forum / Re: Only One Gospel
« Last post by RB on Today at 03:44:10 AM »
RB, we in the Calvary Chapel Movement believe that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, or, the unpardonable sin, is to reject Jesus Christ unto the last moments of breath and beyond. I  believe that this answers the dilemma you have set forth in an above post. As obviously Jesus died for all sins of all men, with the exception of the unpardonable sin, even according to scripture.
You did not answer the dilemma. Also, your understanding of the unpardonable sin is also wrong~but we have a thread already set up for that discussion~I will only say this: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is to SPEAK AGAINST the Spirit's acts/testimony, and exalting one's wisdom above the Infinite wisdom and power of God~which an elect sheep of God will not and cannot do.

I ask you these questions: "Is rejection of Jesus Christ a sin? Did Jesus die for all sins of all people? Can you scripturally and truthfully promise all sinners that Christ died for them?" Remember: If Jesus died for all sins of all people, why then, are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins? You will say, "Because of their unbelief; they will not believe, they reject Jesus Christ."

But this unbelief and rejection, is it a sin, or not?

If not, why should they be punished for it? If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not. If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death? If he did not, then did he not die for all their sins.

And we will close with this: You are frustrating the grace of God and making the death of Christ in vain IF man is co-partner with Christ in his justification from sin and condemnation. Not to mention many other doctrines that you denying in holding to man being the "deciding factor" in his eternal destiny.
95
Theology Forum / Re: Only One Gospel
« Last post by RB on Today at 02:54:12 AM »
RB, we in the Calvary Chapel Movement believe that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, or, the unpardonable sin, is to reject Jesus Christ unto the last moments of breath and beyond.

I  believe that this answers the dilemma you have set forth in an above post.

As obviously, Jesus died for all sins of all men, with the exception of the unpardonable sin, even according to scripture
.
You need to read John Ownes again, for you DID NOT answer the dilemma and you CANNOT. Besides, you're in error concerning the unpardonable sin~ it is SPEAKING AGAINST the Spirit's testimony, and exalting one's earthly wisdom above God's Infinite wisdom. But that's not for this thread~there's a thread dealing with that subject.
96
bhumason  -  A Full Preterist would never ascribe to a paradigm which includes a bodily resurrection, as I do.  They would never agree to a 3rd coming of Christ that I hold to, either.  Neither would they  acknowledge any kind of physical rapture, which I do (with certain conditions).  Neither would they agree that the Rev. 20 millennium lasted a literal thousand years, as I do.   Many of them do not see a culmination point of human history - just endless procreation in the New Covenant Age which never ends.  I do see an end to human history (but not necessarily an end to the New Covenant itself which God makes with His children), with an actual year and month pinned down in our distant future.  But I do share many points of agreement with Full Preterists, such as the elimination of demonic evil since AD 70, and the current existence of the  New Heavens/New Earth/New Jerusalem.  Likewise, an early date composition of AD 59/60 for Revelation, and all written prophecy fulfilled before AD 70's end (but NOT the unwritten, sealed portion from Rev. 10:4 that is reserved for our future).

This millennial view that I briefly presented here has no title.  I have been told of only one man who holds to generally the same interpretation - a Catholic scholar named Eugenio Corsini - (never heard of him, or read anything written by him, though, so I don't know his position for certain).  All I know is that this way of interpreting the Rev. 20 millennium has absolutely no holes in it whatever, and it aligns with every bit of scripture I can throw at it, from any direction.  I've tried to prove it wrong myself over the course of several years, and the view just refuses to topple over. 

As to the Isaiah 65:25 passage, I would say that this is not speaking of a literal absence of aggression among the members of the animal kingdom.  In a highly symbolic book, this is more symbolism showing the effects that the God of Peace works out in His kingdom which we currently occupy.  Opposing parties (such as Jew versus Greek, bond versus free, barbarian versus Scythian, male versus female, etc.) are to be brought into unity by the Spirit of God's influence. 

97
Theology Forum / Re: Only One Gospel
« Last post by RB on Today at 02:42:24 AM »
Would you be even kinder to share your answers to the following: What do you say Paul meant by a 'different gospel' which he refers to in verse 6, which v.7 says is not another gospel? What do you say Paul meant by 'any other gospel' which he refers to in verses 8-9?
Michael, I have already given you an answer to this question right here:
Quote
but in a short summary here it is: When any person preaches to others and ADDS any WORKS to what man must do before that man can be born again and inherit eternal life, then they at once are guilty of perverting the true gospel of FREE JUSTIFICATION by the grace of God through the obedience of Christ. What would be considered works you may be thinking? ANY and ALL works that falls under this commandment: "This DO and live, SINNED and die".  Adam and we in him were under the FIRST covenant that had that commandment and we all became servants of the devil. Jesus Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh for sin and condemned sin in the flesh by living in perfect obedience to the law of God in thought, word and deed from conception to death, and became the perfect offering and sacrifice for our sins. But there is much more to it than what I have said so far~we were chosen IN Christ before the foundation of the world and were members of his body while he lived in this world~ and what he did, we did, when he was put to death so were we, and when he arose from the dead, so DID we, and where he now sits in the heavenly places at God's right hand there do we now sit legally before the law of God! Now to add any works that we MUST do before these things become true, then whether one admits it or not that person has been bewitched with another gospel. There are NO works that we must do, or can do, in order to be born again and enjoy the free gift of eternal life~NOT even FAITH on our part~faith is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit~faith is the evidence of one whom God has according to his grace quickened to life on the behalf of his Son, Jesus Christ. So many have been taught that we must excise faith before we can be born again, yet man is dead in trespasses and sins, unable to believe, besides, he is AT ENMITY against God by wicked works in his mind...to be an enemy is one thing, but to be AT ENMITY is much worst. I'll stop..RB
Any and all teaching that said that man can contribute in any way to his LEGAL JUSTIFICATION by any act that man has an ACTIVE PART IN that person is guilty of bringing another gospel into the word of God and has at once rejected free justification BASED UPON the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ for the ONLY means of man having his sins legally forgiving before the God of heaven. EVEN FAITH on man's part has not one thing to do with that man being justified LEGALLY before the law of God...ONLY the obedience and faith of the Son of God are the only means of FREE JUSTIFICATION~period!
98
Theology Forum / Re: Matthew 7:22 & 23.
« Last post by Glorious on Today at 02:23:40 AM »
AVZ wrote :
Quote
Ad 1.
You say "For your information, Satan believes there is one God..."
Yes he does, and so do millions of people on earth. Yet Satan does not believe IN God. Satan is not a Christian.
To ask "Satan believes God - does that mean he has faith" is a dumb question. Satan does not believe in God, he hates God.

Whosoever believes IN God believes God. Whosoever does not believe God cannot believe in God.


AVZ wrote:
Quote
Ad 2.
Your original question was "Not all men have faith - does that mean there are some who don't have the capacity to believe?"
There is a big difference between having faith and having a capacity to. Some men reject Christ, they do not have faith in God...but they most definitely believe they are right by rejecting Christ.

Scripture tells us that all men do not have faith. It does not mean that such ones who do not have faith cannot believe. One thing is for man to believe, another thing is for God to give him His faith.

Believing is your work of God (or your godly work) to do in order to be able to receive and allow God in your life and circumstances.

God does not believe for you, does He? But, God gives you the gift of faith.


AVZ wrote:
Quote
Ad 3.
Your original question was: "Faith is a fruit of the Spirit - does that mean your work of believing is a fruit of the Spirit?"

Your defense is John 6:28-29 KJV:
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

See above.
99
Christian Men Forum / Re: I cheated on my wife PLEAS HELP ME
« Last post by RB on Today at 02:19:07 AM »
How do I apologize to her and to God.  What can I do?  I need some guidance here.  Thank you.
It's a very wicked sin that you should beg for God forgiveness, and he will if sincere with no desire to repeat it again. True repentance is found here:
Quote
2nd Corinthians 7:9-11~"Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."
I do not know you, so YOU must judge your heart and see IF you meet the fruits of godly repentance mentioned by Paul. Do you have have a vehement desire to NOT put yourself into that situation again? A godly man FLEES from temptations and does not allow himself the OPPORTUNITY to commit such wicked sins.

How would you feel if your wife did the same? Then know, she will be deeply hurt if she loves you. I would think long and hard how to deal with her on this matter, either way, it will hurt your relationship with your wife. When we men allow ourselves to be satisfied sexually by other females in ANY WAY you want to consider how men relief themselves of lust, then we are destroying our relationship with our wife, and WE DESERVE the result of doing that! When our wives KNOW that we want them and ONLY them, it makes for a wonderful love life beyond what Hollywood can even script or THINK OF.

Shame on you for sinning against God and your wife~but you can take comfort knowing he's a forgiving God when we confess and forsake our sins.
100
bhumason  -  Okay, starting from the top of your reply....

If you read the entire paragraph context of I Cor. 15:52-54 together, it becomes apparent that only the change for those who have died is being described.   (v. 52) "...for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  (Now Paul goes on in v. 53  to expound on just what that change for the dead will look like with an explanation of how that change happens.)   "For (this is how that change is accomplished) this corruptible (dead flesh, not living saints) must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."  (Next, Paul describes the results of that change in v. 54.)  "So, (as a result of the change for the dead), when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then (at the time the dead are changed) shall be brought to pass the saying Death is swallowed up in victory."  To introduce a translation-type change for the living into this context would be to go totally off-track from Paul's theme.

As to Paul's experience being stoned, the Jews may have "supposed him to be dead", but that is far from announcing that he actually had died.  Paul's own list in II Cor. 11:23-28 of persecutions he had suffered as a minister of the gospel  mentions the stoning episode, but he says nothing about dying because of it.  You would think that he would mention that pertinent fact if he had, in fact, actually died under the experience. 

Paul's "knowing a man in Christ" caught up to the third heaven in II Cor. 12:2 was not talking about a death-and-revival event that he himself had participated in.  It was another man, not Paul, who heard those "unspeakable words", who then related some of his visions and revelations to Paul.  I believe this was during Paul's "training days" after he had just become converted, when these revelations were passed on to him by that other nameless man that Paul gave glory to, instead of to himself.

Concerning the rapture question you gave, yes, I do believe that scripture presents a resurrection that occurred in AD 70, when the newly-resurrected believers were instantaneously changed into their incorruptible body forms, and were joined by those who had already experienced being raised from the dead (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, and the few other individuals from OT days and those raised by Christ and the disciples).  These all together were bodily raptured to heaven at that time, but their number did not include any translated, living saint participants at all. 

And Elijah?  Sorry, but scripture never tells us that he skipped out of passing through death.  It says in II Kings 2:1, 11 (LXX) that Elijah went up by a whirlwind "as it were into heaven".  In other words, Elijah was simply transported by the whirlwind to another location on earth, away from Elisha, similar to what happened with Philip in Acts after he baptized the eunuch.  It was about ten years or so after Elijah's transportation by the whirlwind that we read of him writing a letter to King Jehoram of Judah (II Chron. 21:12).  This proves he never left the planet with the whirlwind episode.  So no, Elijah was not an exception like Enoch.

You mention that a second death is "implied" for those who were raised to life in the OT and NT.   If scripture does not ever say that they died twice, we cannot presume that they did.  We have to go with the information we are given, which would be that mankind has an appointment to die ONCE, and after that, judgment.  Plus, we have the scripture in Romans 6:9-10 that says Christ died ONCE, never to die again, and the knowledge that the believer's resurrection is to be a copy of His, in every respect.  Which means NO DOUBLE JEOPARDY for us either, when it comes to our physical death.



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