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91
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Last post by fish153 on Yesterday at 00:04:55 »
Soterion---

Your post below is absolutely correct. "He who denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God" (1 John).  He is not talking about someone who doesn't believe Jesus was ever born, or that Jesus was just a spirit.

He is stating something extremely important----those who deny the deity of Christ. The "false teachers" "deny the Lord who bought them". Those,  like Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford (the two first leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses) who leave the truth and reveal they were never born-again believers are being referred to here.

This very denial reveals that they do not have the Spirit, and are with the spirit of Antichrist. They are easily identified. "Whom do you say that I am"? becomes a very seruious test. Who do they say Jesus is? Was He THE WORD (God the SON) become flesh?

Thank you for bringing that up--- it is an important spiritual question and test.
92
General Discussion Forum / Re: Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?
« Last post by Alan on Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:49:16 »
Well, the guy I'm talking about is a Christian, believes the whole Bible, and is an expert in geology. You want to come here and say that your interpretation of the Bible trumps his understanding of what it says and trumps his expertise in geology. ::pondering::

Don't you think that a geologist, who is also a Bible believing Christian, could and would have taken into account the variables you describe here? If he says the layers represent years, it is probably because core sampling all over the world reveals years the same way. It's not like they had to wing it on that particular occasion in Antarctica to understand how to read a core sample. If, on that occasion, the sample looked different in some way, that would have been taken into account.

If I had to pick who to listen to regarding this info, you or him, he is the easy choice. But then, I may have missed something about you that could make the difference. Are you an expert in geology, meteorology, or other related field that you can tell that guy he is wrong?


Add to this the intensive study of climate change on this planet. Various sections of cores contain higher and lower concentrations of oxygen indicating extreme cold trends. The length of a given section and it's proximity in the core reveals when the climate change occurred and how long it lasted.


Cores have been dated to 800,000 years, within those samples many eras of climate change have been identified.
93
Christian Women Forum / Re: Should I report it ?
« Last post by Alan on Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:30:16 »
Guys, while your advice is good, please respect the rules of the women's forum.

(this post will self destruct)
94
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Last post by Truthcomber on Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:09:38 »
So:

1 Tim 3:15 (NIV) if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He (Christ) appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Comment: The Messiah is the foundation of the church mentioned in vs. 15 above and is the “he” in verse 16

http://heavennet.net/writings/supporting-the-trinity-doctrine/#1timothy-3_16
95
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Last post by Truthcomber on Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:06:38 »
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/1-timothy-3-16

1 Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. (NIV)

1. Although the above verse in the NIV does not support the Trinity, there are some Greek manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of them. Trinitarian scholars admit, however, that these Greek texts were altered by scribes in favor of the Trinitarian position. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.

2. In regard to the above verse, Bruce Metzger writes:
[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either(a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” [1]

3. When properly translated, 1 Timothy 3:16 actually argues against the Trinity. “By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” (NASB). This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ’s life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man, Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. We should expect to see some phrases like, “God incarnate,” “God and Man united,” “very God and very man,” etc. But nothing like that occurs. Instead, the section testifies to what non-Trinitarians believe—that Christ was a man, begotten by the Father, and that he was taken up into glory.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/3-16.htm

Concordance supports “he” and not “God”


96
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Last post by Truthcomber on Sat May 19, 2018 - 22:01:42 »
Is the Bible we have today in English the same as the original Bible?
https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-faqs/is-the-bible-we-have-today-in-english-the-same-as-the-original-bible/


What Bible translation is closest to the original written scriptures?
https://ebible.com/questions/16980-what-bible-translation-is-closest-to-the-original-written-scriptures

1 Timothy 3:16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

16 [a]And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness, which is, is manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


HEAVEN NET

http://heavennet.net/writings/supporting-the-trinity-doctrine/1-timothy-3_16/

Jesus is supposedly called God in 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)


So what’s going on here?

First off, one must understand the nomina sacra (sacred names).  These are abbreviations, in early manuscripts, of certain names and titles.

In ancient manuscripts, 1 Tim 3:16 had the word ‘os” which looks like “OC” and means “he”.  The nomina sacra of God looks like the “OC” but instead it has a horizontal line through the middle of the O and a long horizontal line over both letters. 

In one old manuscript (Codex Alexandrinus) it seems to be nomina sacra, but analysis of the manuscript shows that the two horizontal lines were added later. 

Many late manuscripts have the nomina sacra, but all the manuscripts earlier than 800 AD have OC “he”. 
97
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Last post by Kenneth Sublett on Sat May 19, 2018 - 21:55:30 »


Jesus promised the original Apostle and later Paul that they would be GUIDED INTO ALL TRUTH. Paul promised to appear to Paul to guide Him

Peter left us a "memory" of his "part" of the "perfect" revelation and outlawed private interpretation or further expounding.

Paul said that the revelation IN PARTS would be MADE perfect and there would be no need of PERFECTING that which God considered perfect.

In the Epistles as each writer completed his part, the term "The Holy Spirit" almost dissappears and the two-fold relationship of "persons" is universal in the salutations:

ROMANS Grace to you and peace from
        God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:7)

I CORINTHIANS Grace be unto you, and peace,
        from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)

II CORINTHIANS Grace be to you and peace from God our Father,
AND from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
        the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, (1:2,3)

GALATIANS Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, AND God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) ... unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, (1:1-3)

EPHESIANS Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)

PHILIPPIANS Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, ANDand from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)

COLOSSIANS Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1:2,3)

I THESSALONIANS Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:1)

II THESSALONIANS Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:2)

I TIMOTHY Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father AND Jesus Christ our Lord. (1:2)

II TIMOTHY To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father AND Christ Jesus our Lord. (1:2)

TITUS To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (1:4)

PHILEMON Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3)

HEBREWS For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again,
         I will be TO HIM a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (1:5)

JAMES James, a servant of God AND of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (1:1)

I PETER Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (1:3)

II PETER Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, AND of Jesus our Lord, (1:2)

I JOHN ... and truly our fellowship is with the Father, AND with his Son Jesus Christ. (1:3)

II JOHN Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (1:3)

JUDE Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
       to them that are sanctified by God the Father,
       AND preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (1:1

AND IF YOU SAY THAT GOD CAME IN THE FLESH:

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
      He is antichrist, that denieth the Father AND the Son.
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not
       that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
       and this is that spirit of antichrist,
       whereof ye have heard that it should come;
       and even now already is it in the world.

John, Theophilus, Tertullian and others refuted those who say that JESUS WAS GOD THE FATHER.
98
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Last post by BTR on Sat May 19, 2018 - 21:23:58 »
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that {no lie is of the truth.}

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning.
If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
-1Jhn.2:20-24
99
Theology Forum / Re: "In the Wilderness" (NUM 1:1-4:20)
« Last post by Kenneth Sublett on Sat May 19, 2018 - 21:23:04 »
Jacob Ben Avraham.  I am quite amazed that neither Jews nor almost no Christians grasp the story line of the Old Testament.  The STORY is about:

The Civil-Military-Priestly Class whom God abandoned to "worship the starry host" and sentenced them to captivity and death with only a small remnant left.

The Godly tribes attended "synagogue" as A School of the Word.  This happened before Genesis 49 was written.

This was identical to most nations which had a Civil-Military Government most often repudiated by the Spiritual such as the Prophets.  Why would anyone make a RELIGION out of English colonialism and refuse to be FREED from the laded burden and the burden laders.
The SABBATH was not Saturday Worship but REST from the pagan religions who made the people WORK on the Sabbath while the Priests, singers, instrumentalists, sorcerers, cooks and prostitutes RESTED.

Modern christianism is patterned after Catholicism as a Civil Oppresive institution and refuse to let the people REST.  There was never a Jewish WORSHIP DAY among the godly.  Sabbath meant to REST after working six days and be REFRESHED often by listening to the Word being Read and Discussed.

Ancient and modern Judaism is based on the rule of the tribe of LEVI but the PROPHETS repudiated them as being robbers and enslavers "BECAUSE OF OUR SINS."

Neh. 9:34 Neither have our kings, our princes, our priests, nor our fathers,
        kept thy law, nor hearkened unto thy commandments and thy testimonies,
        wherewith thou didst testify against them.
Neh. 9:35 For they have not served thee in their kingdom,
        and in thy great goodness that thou gavest them,
        and in the large and fat land which thou gavest before them,
        neither turned they from their wicked works.
Neh. 9:36 Behold, we are servants this day,
        and for the land that thou gavest unto our fathers
        to eat the fruit thereof and the good thereof,
        behold, we are servants in it:
Neh. 9:37 And it yieldeth much increase
        unto the kings whom thou hast set over us because of our sins:
        also they have dominion over our bodies,
        and over our cattle, at their pleasure, and we are in great distress.




100
Theology Forum / Re: How can Jesus Christ be God?
« Last post by soterion on Sat May 19, 2018 - 21:03:53 »
1 Timothy 3:16.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

1 John 4:2-3.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

2 John 7.
For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Have you ever noticed the great importance being placed on the fact that Jesus the Christ came in the flesh, came to man as a man? It shouldn't be a surprise or a wonder since it was prophesied that the Messiah would be a descendant of David.

2 Samuel 7:12-13.
When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Psalm 132:11.
Jehovah hath sworn unto David in truth; He will not turn from it: Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Micah 5:2.
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.

Romans 1:3.
concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

My question, why should anyone deny that Jesus came in the flesh? What is it about Him that denying His fleshly status makes one an antichrist? There must be something about Him that would make His becoming a man mean something so incredible as to be unbelievable, thus the warning from John.

John describes Jesus, in his gospel account, as the Word who Himself is uncreated but rather is the Creator of all things, prior to His incarnation. I believe one of the absolute attributes of deity is that of Creator. Only God can create, and Isaiah 44:24 says Jehovah did it all alone.

I believe it is the deity of Jesus that makes His coming in the flesh so amazing, and for some so unbelievable and thus deniable. How could God condescend so? I believe it was one of those "if you want it done right, you gotta do it yourself" situations. Only God Himself could provide redemption for mankind, and He did it personally.

People who deny that He who became flesh is God are just making the reverse denial John warned about. John says not to deny Jesus the Christ came in the flesh, and folks here deny that He who came in the flesh was deity. Either way, His true nature is being denied.

Tell me, those of you who deny the deity of Christ, is your denial based strictly on there being a distinction in some passages between God and Jesus, or is it because the belief that God could become a man is too incredible to accept?
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