A Single Issue

[3am_confessional]

I've been wanting to write this up for a long time. This is really, really long. For that, I do apologize.

I have some issues that I desperately need to discuss with people, but I have always been sorely disappointed in the kinds of responses I usually get from Christians. So I wish to put this to you all, and hopefully someone can address the issues I outline here. I also apologize for such a wordy post being my first. Truth be told, I joined this board (and a few other Christian message boards) for the sake of being able to air this.

About myself: I am a Protestant Christian, non-denominational, who has bounced to and from a lot of churches. I am 23 years old, raised in a very conservative environment (homeschooling, Josh Harris, et al), and have since gone to college, graduated, started a career, and reevaluated what practices I believed on their own merits. I am more or less existentialist, casting aside "fate" and being condemned to free will.

I want to talk today about one myriad subject. Relationships.

This is something that has been a major sticking point for me. It has been the cause of deep emotional scars, disillusionment with humanity, and been the cause of serious questioning as to whether God plays an active role in the lives of people today, and if not, why I would want to follow a God who just leave me to drown like that.

Once upon a time I was an acolyte of Josh Harris. I have since decided that he is a fool and I wish to have nothing to do with his ideas. In part this is because he deals primarily with people who should redirect all this godless dating they do and be more marriage minded. While that is in itself laudable, he and those who have written books in the same vein don't ever deal with people in my situation.

See, I am a shy person, it's really hard for me to go out and be social with people I don't know. In fact, I don't do so well with big groups, especially if I don't know everyone there. I much prefer deep (philosophical, intellectual, spiritual) conversations one-on-one with people. I'm pretty average looking though, and have never been popular. I have not had one actual relationship. I've had one or two attempts that lasted a grand total of month, ending after the girl (rather than just leaving me) was cheating on me. The only other thing even close to a relationship was a close friend I cared about, and for awhile she returned that feeling. But it never went anywhere and now she's with someone else, contemplating engagement.

I have to bend over backwards to ever even spend time with my female friends. For the most part, they don't go out of their way to call me. They don't invite me to hang out. I'm an afterthought at best.

Yet, Harris seems to expect that if I sit on my laurels long enough, the fact that I have a hard time meeting people, that I'm more comfortable at home than out and about, will simply cease to affect anything and I'll magically be provided a significant other. Please forgive my hyperbole, I don't want to go into my specific issues with Harris's work, as that would be quite extensive and detract from the issues I still want to address here.

My observations so far about relationships:

  #1 - Most of the relationships I have observed are between people who have just recently been acquainted. Being "friends" is the worst thing possible to the possibility of romantic relationship.
   (Corollary - In the female friends I have had, I have always been quickly placed in the friends category. They may ask me for advice about their relationships but never consider me good enough themselves)

  #2 - Most relationships I have observed start from the people meeting randomly, through mutual friends, or through common interests/activities.

Now a primary concern is whether one's (potential) significant other is a Christian as well. One might think that church activities would be the best place to meet someone with beliefs close enough to yours for compatability. My most recent church though was a horrible place for any type of relationship to grow. Basically, imagine that you cannot talk to any girl at your church that you have not already known for years and grown up with, else you will be labeled a "creepy guy" and no other girls will even give you the time of day there. (Note, I never had that label applied to me (that I am aware of), but I saw it happen to other guys there and so I just walked on eggshells).

Another, personal concern of mine - I deeply want my full relationship (and marriage) to be to a girl of (preferably) Japanese or Chinese heritage (though not nationality, necessarily). This is not just a matter of my ideas of attractiveness but my deep interest in the cultures (for example, I am studying Mandarin right now in preparation for a several-month company assignment in Beijing. I hope to take a fluency test in the next year). That adds a level of difficulty that may not apply to others.

We have already addressed random meetings - I am horrible at striking up conversations with strangers, and have never seen any positive results from my attempts anyway. I have a few times gotten a phone number or email address, but my initial calls or messages were never returned. Par for the course.

Mutual friends is similar. All my friends are guys who have no or few female friends or girls who are taken or uninterested in me.

Now as to common activities and interests, I have been putting out efforts to go out to some activity clubs. But even then, the friends I make are like the female friends I mention before. They keep me at arm's length and put out no efforts of their own to spend any time with me.

I am worried that I'm going to end up in a horrible marriage simply because I'll take the first girl who doesn't reject me outright. But while I can't find a single relationship to save my life, I see the girls that are my peers always in a relationship, if something happens, they'll be single for maybe a few weeks, then, oh great shock, they're with someone again. Something is fundamentally unfair in this.

Now, I do understand that it would take a long time to find someone compatible enough to marry - but I can't even get a girlfriend. For that matter, I can't really get any dates. I'm just always considered the good friend or the brother. Or my call/email/whatever is never returned. And in all I've seen, one does not gain better social skills or relationship skills without experience anyway. So to think I would ever be ready to marry someone without being able to develop an initial dating relationship first is, to me, ludicrous.

The only advice I have gotten from Christians falls into the following idea:

- "God will take care of it all, don't worry"

I'd really, really love to believe that. I believe God will keep any promise he has made me, but nowhere in the Bible are we promised that we will have a loving relationship with any other human being. We are never promised that we will be happy. We are never promised the white-picket fence or the 2.5 children. We aren't promised that our parents won't be drug addicts or abusive. And back to relationships - my little brother died years ago, still a child -- there was no "soulmate" for him, now was there?

This issue has depressed me greatly on and off over the years. Whenever I think some progress has been made, it all gets kicked back into my face. And with no promise, there is no reason for hope because that hope is not based on anything beyond our own internal desire.

In addition, even the things that are promised have to be earned. While a righteous man may not beg in the streets for bread, I had to find a job. That required hard effort on my part. To get to that position, I had to do well in college. I had to earn those grades. I have free will, I could chose to quit working tomorrow and eventually I would come to a point where I'd be living under a bridge in a cardboard box. To continue to feed myself and not beg for bread in the streets I have to make a choice and an effort. It's not free.

I will admit, faith has never been one of my stronger points -- but what is there to base that faith on? When I was younger, I attended a housechurch where a lady dying with cancer was prayed for, and all those present but one prayed "God will heal you." I was the only one who prayed aloud, "If it is His will." She died of cancer within the year. Obviously, it was not His will.

So here I am -- in a situation where I want something badly, where I have never had any encouragement from experience of ever attaining it, where I am told to just wait and expect it, where it is never promised in the first place, and where in absence of a promise I have nothing.

I have more to say and more to ask, but I have run out of words tonight. I honestly don't know what to do from here. But I do have to ask, would a God that loves me as He says He does, leave me so callously to my painful solitude?

[peck]

Confessional,
What you have written has parts that a lot of us can relate too...

I was a nerd in school,very shy..but That was a blessing at times...My attaction for girls overcame my shyness at times and I would just simply ask girls...funny,they should have said no but they didn't...So my first advice is to overcome your feelings of approaching a girl to ask her out...tough,yea..but the rewards are worth it...caution..don't try to impress them with acting and bragging like someone you are not...Be yourself...Be kind and add positive attributes as you are able...

I remember well,as a popular football player looked at pictures of my dates and said why? Meaning why would These beautiful girls go out with me...I thought to myself,well maybe it's because my heart is not in sports like you since you have a narrow selection of female company..I care more about  cars and girls...even dating one girl that dated Elvis Presley....So...take heart young man,I'm a geniune nerd and if you claim to be one also...there is much hope..Just do it..Nerds like myself did and so can you...

God bless,Peck

[phoebe]

3am - You write about your thoughts and feelings extremely well. So much so that I thought you were a girl for several paragraphs. Perhaps girls are intimidated by your intelligence? You did not say if you live independently. Do you still live with your parents? If so, may I suggest that you move out into your own place. That kind of independence will do a lot for your self-confidence, and would be more appealing to a girl your age. Do you have a MySpace or similar net page? If so, what kind of response/reaction do you get?

If you really want to know if there is something about you that girls reject as a boyfriend, ask one. Find a girl that you can talk to honestly, and who will be honest with you, and confidently. She may be able to help you see something that you don't see, or maybe she will tell you that you are an OK guy, and she is as puzzled as you. Ask her to role play with you and practice conversation that leads to dating. And don't forget to continue conversation on that date. (I remember dating a really sweet young man who hardly had two words to say. But he kept calling me, and I kept going out with him, thinking he would eventually open up to me. He never did.)

I believe there is someone out there for you. In the beginning, God saw that it was not good for man to be alone, so he made someone for him. I believe we can choose to live our lives only for Him, without the benefit of a life-mate. His time for presenting a mate to you may simply not have arrived yet. His timing seems seldom in line with ours. I also believe that we are not guaranteed happiness on earth, but that we can find true and unfailing joy in Christ. Happiness is fleeting. Happiness comes from things and other people. Happiness can diminish joy. Discontentment coems from missed expectations. Ask anyone who has been divorced. Joy is belief in Christ's absolute sufficiency.

I am a homeschooling mom, but have never picked up a Harris book. I've seen them, but I don't buy them because they strike me as being extreme theologically in a way that I am not. If Harris doesn't work for you, throw him in the trash and move on.

(As for your brother, I am sorry for your loss. If he was a child, he would not have needed a mate, would he?)

"But I do have to ask, would a God that loves me as He says He does, leave me so callously to my painful solitude?"

No, He wants you to find companionship and completion with Him first, the kind that fills you up and doesn't leave you wanting. Then, perhaps He will plant someone before you.

[3am_confessional]

@peck

I do consider myself a nerd/geek, being thoroughly interested in philosophy, history, computers, and preferring to read a book than watch mainstream television. And I have no doubt that this is how my peers see me as well. During a recent church exercise on exhortation, members were supposed to use stickynotes to leave an encouraging observation on the back of someone they knew. Three out of four that I received said, "quiet". The fourth said, "smart". It's just in my experience that girls have not placed much interest in qualities such as those.

@phoebe

I am living on my own now, and have been for the past six month. In addition I am living in the third-largest city in these United States, so clocking in at just under 4 million residents, one would think I would have a much better dating experience than my hometown of 40,000.

As far as Myspace and other such social networking sites. I do use them, but more for keeping in touch with people I already know. I have at times attempted to meet new people through them and been completely and thoroughly rebuffed. I have always shied away from things resembling "internet dating" as I have this deep-seated fear (unfounded of course) that in doing so I would acknowledge that I am more of a loser than I am now. (id est, "He can't hack it in the real world with real girls so he has to use the internet")

An example (sort of), I met a girl randomly on the train last week. We had a very accidental conversation, but we talked the entire wait for the train and the entire trip. I had to double-back because I missed my stop. I had gotten her email and sent her a message two days later inviting her out to get coffee. In such a situation I felt like I was doing everything right, but there has been no reply from her whatsoever. A similar thing happened a few months ago, a girl I met gave me her phone number, but never returned either of my calls.

I have asked the few female friends that I have ever felt I could be honest with about what glaring deficiencies I might have as a potential boyfriend. Once upon a time there were various character flaws that were pointed out and that I had taken pains to correct (being more patient, not reading between the lines on everything, etc). These days when I ask that question, my interviewee says they have no idea why I can't seem to find someone I like who'd be interested in dating me. (All the while reassuring me how close a friend I am, which is the unspoken justification why *they* wouldn't go out with me).

I do try to keep a conversation going, and have made some progress in that area. The main problem is that I cannot do so when there is a large group (or sometimes even a small group) -- I just tend to fade back into observer status rather than interrupt people I don't know talking about topics with which I am unfamiliar.

I am curious though as to your reasoning that God would have someone for me. Going back to my ideas of free will, I could choose to commit armed robbery or some other crime and spend the rest of my life in prison. If by human choice, the provision can be circumvented to a degree that it cannot come about, is it a provision that one can rely on, or is it mercy that one must be ready and capable to take advantage of?

That is possibly a major reason I have such a hard time dealing with this on any level of faith. While the God of the New Testament is loving, I think we forget about His Old Testament qualities as well. He owes me nothing. And as far as this issue is concerned, He has promised me nothing. Where do I have any reason to hope other than "maybe" He'll help me if He wishes.

[ConnieLard]

Confessional,
Being somewhat shy and introverted myself, especially when I was a younger person, I can definitely relate to you.  I am not good in large groups, either, and tend to fade into the background, too.  Having said that, I would encourage you not to lose heart.  You are clearly intelligent and articulate, which are very attractive qualities to the right kind of girl.  The difficulty is, as you have found, that your personality is most likely quite different from most, which narrows the field for you.  The good news is that you have the capacity more than most to develop a relationship with much depth and interest - with just the right person, that is. 
You may be tired of hearing this from older Christians, but I would advise you to, first of all, work on your relationship with God.  Get to know Him and look for His guidance in this.  Second, you might consider a venue for which you seem particularly well-suited, I think, and that is to try a Christian internet dating service. You express yourself very well in writing, and once you get to know someone in that way, you would probably have an easier time face-to-face.  I have never tried this myself, as this wasn't around when I was young, but I believe that Lee Wilson, who runs this message board could help you out with this.  Going the route of internet dating doesn't mean you are a loser at all.  It just means you are playing to (what I perceive to be) your strengths.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's just being smart.
You will be in my prayers.  I have a son who is just your age.  He is also unattached.  Though he hasn't really shared his feelings re: this with me, I suspect he may feel a lot like you do.  May God bless you in your walk with Him and in your search for a godly mate.  My other son, who is 28 years old,  recently married a wonderful Christian girl.  I am glad that he found her and believe that it was all in God's timing.  May it be that way for you, as well.
Sincerely, Connie

[Bon Voyage]

3am,

First off, 23 is very young in the game nowadays.  A lot of women aren't even having kids til they are close to 30.

Second, have you thought maybe that you are too nice?  (I am not advocating being a jerk either).

[phoebe]

3am -

You articulate so well via your keyboard. There must be a way of taking it from fingers to voice. Maybe a counselor could be of some assistance there. (HRoberson here on GCM is a professional counselor.)

My husband is a book-lover and history buff. He is in the middle of reading Reagan's diary. Being a book-lover is a good thing, as long as there is balance with other things. What else occupies your life? It's easy to feel alone and get lost in a crowd of 4 million.

I am curious though as to your reasoning that God would have someone for me. Going back to my ideas of free will, I could choose to commit armed robbery or some other crime and spend the rest of my life in prison. If by human choice, the provision can be circumvented to a degree that it cannot come about, is it a provision that one can rely on, or is it mercy that one must be ready and capable to take advantage of?

That is possibly a major reason I have such a hard time dealing with this on any level of faith. While the God of the New Testament is loving, I think we forget about His Old Testament qualities as well. He owes me nothing. And as far as this issue is concerned, He has promised me nothing. Where do I have any reason to hope other than "maybe" He'll help me if He wishes.

Being an optimist by nature, I see this in Scripture:

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help corresponding-to-him."

While this was a statement about one man and his need, I believe this need and God's understanding of it and willingness to meet that need applies to all human beings. This is a loving quality of our Creator, the very same One who gave us the Cross (Jesus) and a Comforter (Spirit) to meet other needs. If God is not going to meet your need with a woman life-mate, He will meet it another way. He won't leave you hanging out there all alone forever, unless that is where you choose to be, which it does not seem to be with you.


My heart bleeds for you in your loneliness. Jesus was alone once. He also bled for you. He understands. I am in prayer on your behalf, 3am. May God boldly meet your need in whatever way He deems best for you.

[peck]

3am,
You are just in the years to be patient..I'm envious of your intelligence and career minded goals..a girl may interrupt a higher calling for you right now... A great career is a very satisfying life style...and believe me,when you have matured in your career...the rest will follow..Give God time..

As a teen,I asked God to choose a partner for me(even though I wasn't the best catch around)...Plenty of girls but a lifetime partner was not on my mind at the time...later at the convenient time God was ready to make a choice for me..He listens,even to a not so faithful christian that I was...Then in a strange way..it happened...We were just teens but have been married 52 years...Don't rush God..Just ask in simple trusting faith and wait..God will supply at the perfect time..Don't rush..Let God..

God bless,Peck

[Arkstfan]

I've been wanting to write this up for a long time. This is really, really long. For that, I do apologize.
My observations so far about relationships:

  #1 - Most of the relationships I have observed are between people who have just recently been acquainted. Being "friends" is the worst thing possible to the possibility of romantic relationship.
   (Corollary - In the female friends I have had, I have always been quickly placed in the friends category. They may ask me for advice about their relationships but never consider me good enough themselves)

  #2 - Most relationships I have observed start from the people meeting randomly, through mutual friends, or through common interests/activities.

Now a primary concern is whether one's (potential) significant other is a Christian as well. One might think that church activities would be the best place to meet someone with beliefs close enough to yours for compatability. My most recent church though was a horrible place for any type of relationship to grow. Basically, imagine that you cannot talk to any girl at your church that you have not already known for years and grown up with, else you will be labeled a "creepy guy" and no other girls will even give you the time of day there. (Note, I never had that label applied to me (that I am aware of), but I saw it happen to other guys there and so I just walked on eggshells).

Another, personal concern of mine - I deeply want my full relationship (and marriage) to be to a girl of (preferably) Japanese or Chinese heritage (though not nationality, necessarily). This is not just a matter of my ideas of attractiveness but my deep interest in the cultures (for example, I am studying Mandarin right now in preparation for a several-month company assignment in Beijing. I hope to take a fluency test in the next year). That adds a level of difficulty that may not apply to others.

I've deleted above just to leave what I'm ready to speak to.

I have most of my life been a shy introvert lacking confidence. Being a friend isn't a bad thing.

I have told the story often of how I met my wife. I was walking across campus and spotted the tall cute redhead who sat behind me in Freshman English sitting on a bench. I got up my courage to visit with her it never went anywhere except she became my friend as did the short blonde sitting with her. After being friends for months the short blonde and I had our first kiss and married a few months later. Our relationship started as strictly friends and grew to another place.

My son for over a year chased after a girl at his high school and I really disliked her and felt she was using the "friend" status as a user and took advantage of her. He went to prom with another girl. They became friends. Then they started going to church together "as friends". They just left the house a few minutes ago to eat supper after having been together since he picked her up from church nine hours ago. They are boyfriend and girlfriend.

Friendships can blossom and they can also lead you to meeting your right person. Instead of just being disappointed when a girl puts you in friend category and calls on you for advice, use that friendship. Girls who don't want to date you and just be friends can help you dress in a way that will attract the attention of others, help you gain confidence and help you identify your strengths and weaknesses and help you meet others. Or they might just fall for you in the process.

As to the attraction to Asians, we all have the things that (as another friend would say) "trips our trigger". Examine your attraction though. If it isn't a physical attractiveness thing, you may be applying stereotype without realizing it. You may think such a person will share an interest in anime, or Asian food, or Asian languages, Asian history or whatever else you find interesting.  I'm on a committee a church with a Filipino lady who can't speak the first word of the language because her parents believed in English only in their home and other than cooking some Filipino dishes knows virtually nothing of the culture.

[janine]

You'll be working in Asia soon enough -- I suppose there will be a few Asian ladies to meet   there... 

I don't want to talk down to you in any way -- but I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've got underwear older than you.

Well, no, not literally.  But close!  You are very young -- and though there's nothing wrong with marrying young (I was 18, hubby 21),  you do cut off many possible doorways/pathways when you marry young. 

There may be all sorts of career and service paths that you'd excel at, but which would not be the best thing time-and-resource-wise for a young man with a wife (and maybe kids coming).

Look around here on our site -- you'll see somebody posted about the Duggar Family.

I imagine they'd have some interesting advice on how to find a mate.  Contact them for sure.

I will return with more time later and enjoy what you had to say, and the replies, more in-depth.  For now, I'm off to do all the things that have been falling on my head, lately, that only I, I, I can do, apparently.  Somehow marriage has not made my life any easier...

[don has a plan]

My story is similar to arkstfan's.  I met my wife when I was in 8th grade.  We hated each other.  In high school, we became best friends -- but nothing romantic.  In college, we realized our friendship had grown to become more.  We were married in college.  At the college.

Foster friendships.  One may evolve.  And even if one doesn't, the worse that happens is that you end up with more friends.

Best wishes.

[peck]

Neat Don..

God bless,Peck

[Big Mike Lewis]

3AM,

Dude, I am totally there with you man.  You should have seen me in High School.  Why would a girl want to date that human?  I never asked girls out already knowing the answer.  I was also poor and dressed in shabby clothing too.  People probably pitied me.

I went to college and decided that I didn't care anymore (yeah right...of course I did).  2 years in Junior college went by and I transfered.  Went to Cascade in Portland.  Became more self-confident, but still lacked the ability to woo women.  I actually liked this girl a lot, and missed out on a really attractive (model-esque) girl.  The guys around me wondered why I didn't go after her...I sometimes wonder the same thing, but I digress.

I was dumped by a girl who I wasn't even dating...long story...I thought we would be after the summer...turns out she found a new guy during summer and they were getting married.

After that, I was done with girls.  I would intentionally be mean to them when they would talk to me (wrong attitude).

Then one evening, I was actually being nice to someone and they were laughing at my jokes and we talked for hours.  I eventually asked her out for her birthday.  It was a lame date.  I was not myself and couldn't think of anything to say.  She was gracious.  We've been married 9 years.  She's a miracle from God.

You see, I thought it would never happen for me either.  I thought that there's no one out there for me.  I prayed about it and thought God was ignoring me.  I hated life because of it.  I treated some really nice girls really badly.  But deep down it was God blessing my life with the right person.  I just didn't know it until it happened.

It's hard to know what God's will is or when he's going to impose it.  It's hard to even tell people that because you're dispensing having to give real advice.  Sometimes the best advice is "God's will".  Sorry if this makes it worse or more depressing.  I apologize in advance.

[kamakaz]

a couple things, even though i have not read the entire lengthy message. You are a male, age?

sounds like u may suffer from a social disorder which I do/did as well. A lot of your childhood will reflect your morrality and Confidence level as an adult. Unfortunatly, I had a very damaging and problematic childhood. I forgot the exact term, but it is a disorder. And remember, God is a God of order (this is the enemies doing) and can be prayed away, however it will probably be a long and painful road.

As far as saying that it is not a goood idea to be freinds with someone u are interested in, that is in opposition to the bible. Also except for special circumstances man is to unite with his wife, a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife.

if you have to bend over backwards to spend time with your female friends (not sure why you qualified your female friends -friends should be friends -unless u think females are harder to be 'freindly' in nature) but if you feel u have to give for them to be a friend, does that even make them a friend? Friends give, not take. Are u allowing yourself to be used because u feel u have to few friends to loose any of them? And have u told them how u feel, true friends will let u talk about anything, even them so u can work at making a better relationship.


the shy issue is that an issue, u will have to deal with it, and yes it is hard, i still sometimes fail, but i keep on trying. Woman like confidence, God put that character need in them, as men are there strength and support, they need to know we are confident in ourselves and God, basically if we can fend for ourselves we can defend them, which is our role according to God. So even if a woman doesnt understand (because she was not taught by an older wise woman) that she is looking for a confident man to be a defender, she will just generalize that to a point where u have to have supreme confidence in everything, which goes beyond Gods intent, but it is our reality. Christian counciling can help with this, and probably is the reason of such high divorse rate among Christians, we do not seek to learn our roles and each others roles according to Gods way, we try our way and fail missriably. We try to impose our will on our spouses, not Gods will.

As far as finding a spouse in church, yes can be hard, u may be around the same old people for years who are married, to old/ to young, etc. Try going to your friends churches other than yours, or Christian online dating. You got to use multiple options now adays. AND maybe you should not try at all, surrender it completely to God, and let HIM work out the situations to bring you together, who better to play cupid than God!!! He created you, He created him/her, and He loves you both, He knows the future, whethre you will still be madly in love 20 years from now or not! Thats the point where i am at now. I will have to go thru the rest tomorrow (or monday). Until then, God bless, keep your head up, keep this in prayer, and then just let it go, and let God!!! hope this helps as I am sensere and hope u find true love if that is what you need.