Over 400 children removed from Polygimist compound in Texas

[spurly]

What's Next for the Children from the Polygamist Compound in Texas?

Jaime,

Have you heard anymore details about this story.  We need to pray for the children who have grown up in that compound, that God will free them from the shackles of guilt, sin, bitterness and false religion that Satan has been keeping them bound in.

[Jaime]

Eldorado is a very small ranching community about 1-1/2 hours from where I live. I haven't heard much other than what you hear on the national news. My wife works with a lady that is a Sheriff's deputy in Midland County that helped in the initial raid. She told my wife that her husband has really been affected by what he has seen and experienced down there. No details though.

I have driven by the compound before and it is the most bizarre thing I have ever seen. This 4 or 5 story shiny white "temple" rising out of the prarie in a part of the world that doesn't put up with much crap if you know what I mean. It boggles my mind how the regular community of that area allowed the compound to go forward or even buy the land. The ranchers out here are very territorial and protective of each others and the communities interest. To allow a bunch of nit wits like these to entrench themselves out here and fence themselves off in order to carry on ritualistic pedophilia is beyond me.

Not too many years ago, reasonable people woulda just said, "get a rope!"

[Jaime]

I have heard that the surrounding communities have been very forthcoming with help for the children and women. Prayer is needed!

[Charles Sloan]

This is a terrible situation.

[Jimbob]

Jaime, when they bought the land, they lied about its intended use.  They said it was going to be a large hunting retreat, which of course didn't raise a red flag in Eldorado.

I've preached for the CoC congregation there a few times, all back in the late 90's though.  My mother lives an hour from there.

I've been following this loosely from the beginning, and checked in now and then on the Eldorado Success newspaper's site:
http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZMenu.html

--------------------------

As a former foster parent, I've been boggled by how in the world the CPS offices are handling this crisis.  San Angelo is the nearest larger city, and it's only 90,000ish.  400 children is an amazing number for that office to handle well.  Our prayers need to continue for how all that mess is going to be dealt with, so that the women and their children (or in some cases the kids and their children) come out of all this much better off.  I hope that some good ministries there are able to reach out to them.

[marc]

Only men count; women are property, good for breeding and chores.  That seems to be the foundation behind things such as this--a girl hits puberty, and she's given as property.  We get people on the board occasionally promoting polygamy, and they always say how their brand of polygamy is different from Jeffs', but it's always one man, multiple women.  It's always based on the concept that only men matter.

The pedophilia bit is just a side issue, a red herring, almost.  It's terrible, of course, but it's a symptom of the true disease. You look into American society in the past and you'll see girls being married off at similar ages.  My great-grandmother was married at 13, and looking back to the 18th and 19th centuries, this was common.  Only as the concept that women were equal to men took hold did this practice stop.

It's easy to dismiss this by assuming that these men are just perverts, but this is a problem that our whole society has had in the past.

[Charles Sloan]

It's easy to dismiss this by assuming that this men are just perverts, but this is a problem that our whole society has had in the past.

I disagree, I think we're just pigs.

[Jaime]

In addition to the sick abuse, another tragedy is the brain washing that goes on. I heard an interview of a lady that had been in one of these compounds and somehow was rescued. But it took 5 years she said to get it out of her head that she was somehow doing something against God by not being in the group.

She also mentioned rascism is a big part of the brain washing. She said they were taught that black people had been white just like them, but when they sinned, they turned black. She said she was horrified to be in a grocery store check out behind a black person. When they are rescued, they are so screwed up, they don't know and can't comprehend that normalcy is not the horror.

[Charles Sloan]

I heard about the rasicism thing, that being black is the "Mark of Cain" and that they cannot receive eternal life.

[Jaime]

I heard on Fox this morning, that the authorities apparently had an undercover "plant" inside the compound for the last 4 years.



He may have been a goober and took them seriously when they told him to keep an eye on things inside there. They shoulda also told him to report what he saw.

[marc]

The racism's not a surprise.  People I've ran into who support eugenics often also support polygamy and even older men marrying very young girls.

[Jaime]

I was wondering about the young bous in the compound. We haven't heard about or seen any youn boys. I guess they may ritually Euthanize them and just raise girls for future breeding stock.

[spurly]

The more I hear about this story on the news, I am beginning to wonder about the truth behind the abuse charges.  What are your thoughts?

[Jaime]

No, after seeing the women interviewed yesterday in the compound, I am convinced there IS abuse there and not just of children. Those women had Stockholm syndrome written all over their foreheads. Also, my wife's friend's husband who was in the sheriff's department that raided the compound, said that there were many 15 and 16 year old girls with 3 and 4 small children. That is evidence enough of the child abuse or at least a sick group of individuals. 

[Jimbob]

They said this morning there are several teenage pregnant girls in custody.  Doesn't sound like a hoax.  You also have to keep in mind that in CO and UT this same cult has a track record.  It's not like all this came out of thin air.

[spurly]

We have teenagers pregnant in our county.  That doesn't necessarily mean there was abuse, it could imply that they were sexually active with other teenagers.  They can't even find the girl who supposedly called in to 9-1-1.  I don't agree with the teachings of this cult, I don't agree with polygamy, but it seems the government may have overstepped their bounds a little in this case and Child Protective Services seems to have jumped in without getting their ducks in a row first. 

I didn't think we lived in a country where one could be removed from their home, and then the case could be presented against them.  I thought people were innocent until proven guilty.

[Jimbob]

No, but if it was a long time trend that they were getting pregnant by a particular group of 40-50 year old men, would you not scrutinize those men?

[Jimbob]

I didn't think we lived in a country where one could be removed from their home, and then the case could be presented against them.  I thought people were innocent until proven guilty.

Where have you been? 

[Jaime]

In the case of possible child abuse, I would much rather our authorities "jump in" quickly if they have reason to suspect. Apologize later if they were wrong.

I am fully convinced that most of the females both grown and adolescents don't realize they have been abused. The lady that has been on the news reports that came out of that cult 7 or 8 years ago proclaims how insidious the brain washing is to the folks. Right is wrong and wrong is right.

If polygamy is against the law how does this cult even have a place to exist? They don't deny the polygamy. That alone should be cause for disrupting their activities.

[Jimbob]

As a therapeutic foster care worker in the past, I agree.  Sexual abuse is perhaps the worst of all kinds.  There is no defense, and should be no tolerance nor patience. 

[spurly]

No, but if it was a long time trend that they were getting pregnant by a particular group of 40-50 year old men, would you not scrutinize those men?

Yes I would, but my quesiton is did they have any evidence that these girls were impregnanted by 40-50 year old men?  It doesn't seem like they did.

[spurly]

In the case of possible child abuse, I would much rather our authorities "jump in" quickly if they have reason to suspect. Apologize later if they were wrong.

Jaime, what if it was your child who accused you falsely of abuse, or someone else falsely accusing you of abuse?  Would you really want CPS to jump in quickly and apologize later?

[Jaime]

In the case of possible child abuse, I would much rather our authorities "jump in" quickly if they have reason to suspect. Apologize later if they were wrong.

Jaime, what if it was your child who accused you falsely of abuse, or someone else falsely accusing you of abuse?  Would you really want CPS to jump in quickly and apologize later?

Yes, I think I would. If it was a false accusation, I would be vindicated. I am in favor of a pretty sensitive trigger as to child abuse. It's too easy for the guilty to skirt.

This case involving the polygamist is a no-brainer in my opinion. EVEN if the 15 and 16 year old girls don't believe they have been abused. Polygamy is a human abuse even if the women are 21 or older.

[Jaime]

No, but if it was a long time trend that they were getting pregnant by a particular group of 40-50 year old men, would you not scrutinize those men?

Yes I would, but my quesiton is did they have any evidence that these girls were impregnanted by 40-50 year old men?  It doesn't seem like they did.

Shouldn't be hard to prove with DNA testing.

[spurly]

Jaime, my question in this case is whether or not CPS and the police had proof of abuse, or if they went in looking for proof of abuse based on a caller from someone they can't even identify.  If so, then they are assuming people are guilty and then requiring them to prove their innocence, which goes against the heart of what our country is all about.

Is child abuse wrong?  It is detestable.  However, taking all of these children from the ranch based on what may turn out to be a false report of abuse is wrong as well.

Check out the following story from the Denver Post: False Report Thrusts Springs Woman Into Polygamist Case

Here's a teaser: "Texas Rangers are investigating whether a Colorado Springs woman made calls pretending to be an abused girl in a polygamist compound, sparking a mass child protective action in Eldorado, Texas.

Rozita Estraletta Swinton, 33, was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of false reporting in two Colorado cases, but Texas Rangers were present for the arrest, Colorado Springs police said Thursday night."

[Jimbob]

I visited with my mother today, who is in San Angelo, Tx where all this is being dealt with.  Here's what I learned...

* The authorities, when they went into the compound expected to find just over 100 people total.  They did not expect to find 400+ kids

* There are, as national news has reported, girls 13-16 yrs. old that are pregnant.  They are pregnant by 40-60 year old men, they are doing dna testing to show who has abused whom.

* The mothers have mainly been asking for the girls to come back, they haven't pushed as hard to have the boys back (this, too, has also been reported nationally).  Girls are a commodity.  Boys are only allowed to stay on the compound if chosen by Jeffs, their now-imprisoned leader.

* The girls are to begin having a child per year as soon as their menstrual cycles begin (this, too, has been nationally reported). 

* None of the children 5 and under even have birth certificates (that's approximately the same time period the cultists moved from CO & UT to Texas.

* The lawyers representing children are all working pro bono.

* Most of the children are unschooled and most of reading age cannot read.

* There is an outbreak of chicken pox among many of them at the moment.



--------------------

As I've said before, these children need our prayers.  Unlike the adults, they have not chosen their life in this oppressive and sexually abusive cult.  And now, because of the sins of their fathers, they are going through a very traumatic time.  May God lead them to freedom and true, wholesome, godly security from those who would exploit them.

[Jimbob]

As to the call that started this all, according to law if the state receives a call like that, they are bound to inspect and investigate the safety of the children the report is about.  If it's a fake call and in the process real abuses exist, they can't legally--and morally shouldn't--ignore abuse simply because a disingenuous call had been placed.

[Jaime]

I heard the news report of the false phone call. But in the same report they said there is evidence that abuse has taken place and they are ordering DNA testing. The judge has denied the call to release the children. He feels there is sufficient evidence pointing to abuse.

The original phone call may have been false, but I believe it will stop further abuse. This whole affair is sick sick sick and needs to nipped in the bud as Barney Fife used to say.

[janine]

As mentioned above -- teen boys are pretty marginalized in those groups, at least as it has been reported.  To the point of simply kicking out all but the few they want to keep -- "culling" the boys -- literally, sometimes, just putting them out, still minors, uneducated and with no resources, on the streets of the nearest town or city.

So, was the lady who placed the fake call trying to cause the compound folks some trouble just simply because she didn't like them?  Or was she an "escapee" herself, perhaps from before they moved there, or did she have a sister or daughter who'd gotten sucked into the mess, and was the fake call an attempt to call attention to the place and get the social workers involved?

Not that it matters a whole lot, really, in the end.  I just wonder.

In the case of possible child abuse, I would much rather our authorities "jump in" quickly if they have reason to suspect. Apologize later if they were wrong.

Jaime, what if it was your child who accused you falsely of abuse, or someone else falsely accusing you of abuse?  Would you really want CPS to jump in quickly and apologize later?

Yes, I think I would. If it was a false accusation, I would be vindicated. I am in favor of a pretty sensitive trigger as to child abuse. It's too easy for the guilty to skirt...

No, honey, if you are accused of abuse -- especially sex-related abuse -- and the word gets around -- you never, ever wipe that stain off your face.

In the public eye, anyone who remembers your kids, your name, your case, will always sort of figure "where there is smoke, there is fire".

It is probable that your neighbors, and even your extended family and church family --  will always consider the possibility -- however small -- that there really was something to the allegation, and will act accordingly when they and children in their charge have to be around you.  They have their kids to think of; they would be irresponsible parents if they did not factor in that tiny possibility that the spectacular case  you were squashed by, might have had a grain of truth to it.

You might consider that right now, sitting safe at your computer, and think such an unlikely possibility is "worth it" in your life, just so you have the comfort of being able to think of Social Services as a sort of watchful guardian out there somewhere, helping to keep your kids safe.  I suggest you'd feel differently if one of those bungled, botched, over-eagerly-pushed situations fell on you and your kids were taken away from you.

You'd be facing the possibility of public censure, as detailed above; you'd be facing the possibility of prosecution and even imprisonment if it all went really wrong.

Meanwhile, your kids would be off somewhere either in an institution with a bunch of other kids -- many of whom really have been abused, and might be likely to "act out" their pain on your own kids -- Or else your kids will be in a foster home somewhere, again maybe with other abused kids --

Or even alone with a foster mother or foster couple.  Who may be just great folks, God bless 'em for caring for kids -- but what about the small-but-real possibility that they are abusers themselves?  What if their creepy relative or neighbor, who has access to the kids, is an abuser?  You are depending upon total strangers to have the same judgment you would about who out there has access to your kids. 

The point is, while the totally false accusations of abuse and/or sexual abuse works its way through "The System", your kids are where you cannot watch over them, getting influenced by stuff you might not think is good for them 24 hours a day.  And, unlikely though it may be, they may actually be abused while out there away from your guidance, your home.

And unless you are willing to pull some kind of Rambo/Chuck Norris sneak attack armed rescue of your kids, bucking the system and breaking the law, to save them -- well sir, you just have to sit there and grin and bear it, bow and accept whatever "The System", the State, the World wants to do to your family, while the case works it way through the legal maze.

Everyone can think of cases of real, true abuse, where that oh-so-watchful system did not act in time.  So everyone, when that happens, is quick to point fingers at everyone else with cries of "Why didn't you do something?!?!?"  I do have sympathy for overburdened folks in The System -- social workers and similar -- who are blindsided by this, when it happens, I really do.  They can only do so much, they are only human, they only have so many hours in a day and so much budget to work with.  So it is inevitable that some kids who do not need intervention will be spirited away -- and some kids who desperately need it will be left there in a Hell-on-Earth.

But, anyway, in the end, God allowed me my children, and they are my responsibility to protect and teach and raise up "in the nurture and admonition of the Lord".  Any time some entity has power -- or thinks it does -- to take them from me -- whether it's a kidnapper or a cop -- I bristle.

And also, in this Land of the Free, I puff and bristle when religious groups are hassled.  Even stupid religious groups with stupid religious expressions that I think are stupid.

What I really wish could have happened, if there is good solid legal reason to interfere in that compound -- what I really wish could have happened, right away, is that those 40-50-60 year old men -- the ones keeping the under-age harem -- I wish those men could have been immediately arrested, and the kids left in place, with the mothers and homes they know, while it was all sorted out.  If the moms can be cited for abuse because they allowed their teen daughters to be "married" off to randy old goats in the name of God -- well, they can't allow that if the randy old goats have been taken away, can they?

[Jaime]

I hear you Janine, and your probably right.

I just don't understand how polygamy and it's clear danger to young girls can stand unabated in any community. Can someone explain that to me. Afterall this cult is not and has not denied being a polygamist group all the while polygamy is illegal.

[Jaime]

I'm bumping this to hopefully hear more discussion on HOW polygamy is allowed irregardless of any abuse going on? These folks have not, afterall, denied the polygamy (illegal in all 50 states) in any way,

[spurly]

I'm bumping this to hopefully hear more discussion on HOW polygamy is allowed irregardless of any abuse going on? These folks have not, afterall, denied the polygamy (illegal in all 50 states) in any way,

Jaime, do they skirt the law by participating in common-law polygamy instead of having actual state sanctioned marriages which involve licenses from the state?  I don't know, but I thought you might have heard since this happened in your backyard.  How many adult men lived at the compound in comparison with the adult women?

By the way, what do you think of the DNA tests? 

[marc]

I keep hearing a lot about spiritual marriages.   I assumed this was how they get around the law. 

In the end, it's nothing but a system of slavery.

[Jaime]

I'm bumping this to hopefully hear more discussion on HOW polygamy is allowed irregardless of any abuse going on? These folks have not, afterall, denied the polygamy (illegal in all 50 states) in any way,

Jaime, do they skirt the law by participating in common-law polygamy instead of having actual state sanctioned marriages which involve licenses from the state?  I don't know, but I thought you might have heard since this happened in your backyard.  How many adult men lived at the compound in comparison with the adult women?

By the way, what do you think of the DNA tests? 

I don't know how they got away with the polygamy. I'm sure they weren't issued marriage licenses. If polygamy is illegal, there should be some way of preventing this type of situation from going this far.

I haven't heard how many adult men were in the compound, but I assume they are long gone now, or at least in hiding somewhere.

I'm in favor of the DNA testing, but they are going to have to test these adult men to match with the children's DNA it seems to me. I heard on the news the other night that the authorities can't even get names out of the children or the women. And the men are nowhere to be found.

I view these women as Patty Hearst type victims. They ARE victims in a very real sense, but the insidious mind control of the cult leaders has made them part of the problem.

[Jimbob]

Not only are they using the spiritual marriages to skirt the law, but they have also used it to call the polymists' wives "single mothers" (legally speaking) so that the wives and children are actually receiving welfare checks and food stamps.