"I DO NOT KNOW"

[david johnson]

booty, et al:

the recalcitrants who do not have 'i do not know' in their active vocabulary will soon be told 'YOU do not know'.

dj

[Lacy]

Hi all,

Those of us with a legalistic heritage (CoC), understand this subject well. We were in "the way that's right and can't be wrong." We always won the debates while our opponents always lost. People who have the "party spirit" just know that their party is right and all who do not belong to their party are wrong, not realizing that "The works of the FLESH are plain," and among them is a "party spirit" (Gal. 5:19,20 RSV).

Lacy

[Booty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Aug. 04 2002,08:36)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here's another Tshirt topic for Booty:

"This Much Is True:
1) There Is A God, and
2) You Ain't Him"
 
Of course, that shirt slogan is only true as well as funny when I realize I ain't Him either...[/quote]
LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!


Love it!!

But could you be HER?

[WileyClarkson]

I work in the nuclear security industry, as some of you know already.  In that particular area of employment, we are always under the scrutiny of the NRC, the client and the employer and we are open to questioning about our job at any time.

We are taught to never expound on something we don't know anything about when asked because normally the asker knows about it before he/she asks you.  We simply are to say "I don't know".  However, those words "I don't know" are not a complete statement for us (even though they are in English :) ).  There is another part to that statement that  is expected!!  

The other part is this:  
"BUT I know where to look to find out!"

Wiley

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Arkstfan @ Sep. 24 2002,05:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I know a lot less now about the rules and how God acts in what we see as the gray areas than I did 10 years ago but I also know a bigger God today who is much stronger and much more capable of handling decisions on the gray areas than he was when he followed my interpretations.[/quote]
What are the rules you speak of?  Experience can temper our
opinions and can add perspective to what we once thought was very simple and straight forward.  

At the risk of offending someone let's think about the concepts of "absolute" and "inerrant".   An absolute is a divine or perhaps idealistic quality, and as mere mortals it's sometimes difficult to accept what might seem less than absolute.  As an example, if the true meaning of a scriptural verse is obscure, then our best shot is as close to absolute as we may ever get.  In the practical sense, it's better to accept shades of gray if the absolute black and white of an issue is not obvious or seems out of reach at the present time.  This gives one a working platform to grow from.  That's better than
being hopelessly hung up for lack of a precise meaning of an issue.  The risk associated with not being willing to settle for anything less than absolute is that the sometimes people contrive what they believe to be the real thing.  When additional info. or knowledge comes along to shed a better perspective on the matter it's hard to eat crow and admit you are wrong.

It appears that God is bigger to you today than 10 years ago because your understanding of scripture has grown.  Am I right?

[Booty]

I DO NOT KNOW

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"I DO NOT KNOW"[/quote]

I DO NOT KNOW

How many times have you ever stopped to think just how seldom we say these three words? How rarely we hear them?

I propose a test. Each of us can make a survey of our respective congregations. Elders, Deacons, Preachers, Brothers, Sisters random sampling across the board. We develop a question here, one that should require considerable reflection to answer. Now we are not looking for the answer, but rather how many times will we encounter honest folk who will have the conviction of faith to simply respond, "I DO NOT KNOW" or at the least, "Let me think on that"

I suspect the results will be amazing.

[janine]

Too much "I don't know" sounds convictionless and spineless.

Too little "I don't know" sounds conceited and authoritarian.

Around here, there's enough of it so it's shortened to "I dunno".  That's at home, mostly, though, in answer to "Who left the refrigerator open?" and "Who washed the red Tshirt with the white Tshirt?"

That Mr. I. Dunno gets around.

I do hear "I don't know" from time to time at church gatherings, Bible studies, etc.  It's good.

[marc]

This reminds me of the nationally-televised preacher who not long ago began a lesson by promising that he would explain exactly how the trinity worked.  

Much too often we feel the need to come up with an answer--any answer--when we should say those four words.  But instead we feel we should have all the answers, and we place our confidence in ourselves instead of in the One who saves us and keeps us.  We turn "ready to provide an answer" into "possessing all the answers", forgetting that our ultimate answer is our salvation by the grace of God.  We CAN draw men to us by convincing them of our superior knowledge, but is this what we should be doing, or should we be pointing men to God as the source of all knowledge?  There's a difference.  

Steven Curtis Chapman recently sang a song called "God is God" that began:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And the pain falls like a curtain
On the things I once called certain
And I have to say the words I fear the most
I just don't know

And the questions without answers
Come and paralyze the dancer
So I stand here on the stage afraid to move
Afraid to fall, oh, but fall I must
On this truth that my life has been formed from the dust

God is God and I am not
I can only see a part of the picture He's painting
God is God and I am man
So I'll never understand it all
For only God is God
[/quote]

Amen.  There's the source of our strength. :D

[seekr]

marc, I never read the words to that song before, they are great.

What I have discovered with knowledge is that it almost always comes with a mixture of pain and joy, when it comes from God; the pain of realization of our finite minds and lack and the wonderful realization of His power and how He still grants us so much even when we are so unworthy. if knowledge is creating arrogance then it may not be from Him or we may be using it in the wrong way by trying to control others with it or forgetting the love that should be it's foundation.

Maurine

[susieface]

Lacy,
 That used to be me alright!!  A big "I know it all".

  Now I am just A Big "I Don't Nothing or Squat"!!

Could that be a humbling experience?  I hope so!!  Well, at least now I try to let God lead me and now I pray more for understanding and wisdom.  Where as before it was more like " Thank you God, for letting me be Right".  Of course I didn't actually pray this, but might as well have because that was my attitude. That is what he heard.  I am so ashamed!!

Thank you God for putting up with my arrogance!!!!!!! and forgiving me daily!!!!!!!!!!!
Susie

[Lacy]

Susie

There's hope for you! Our problem was putting ourselves in a box God didn't make and then saying all people had to be in the box we had made. We were like caged animals, fierce and dangerous to the spirits of others. Even when a side of the cage was opened, many of us didn't want to go free. Some are still in there with the side open, looking out into space and arguing at the same time that they are where God wants them to be and all of us whom they see out here have surely left the Lord's "box" and will be judged for it.

To change the figure to sheep in a fold, Jesus says, "I am the gate for the sheep...whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in AND GO OUT ans find pastures. Isn't it wonderful to be out in the fields together after being in the box? As Elizabeth Barret Browning said, "The little cares that troubled me, I lost them yesterday--out in the fields with God."

Lacy

[janine]

Here's another Tshirt topic for Booty:

"This Much Is True:
1) There Is A God, and
2) You Ain't Him"
 
Of course, that shirt slogan is only true as well as funny when I realize I ain't Him either...

[susieface]

Actually that little saying goes like this

       "This much is true,  there is a God and he ain't you!!"

Has to rhyme you know! I just read that and it didn't flow!!!!!!!  LOL!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Susie

[spurly]

Students here hate it when I honestly tell them that I don't know what the answer is, I don't know what to say to one of their friends struggling with parental abuse, I don't know how to attract drug users to Jesus.

It's scary for them, but it helps them realize that I should not be the answer man up on a pedastool, they have to help search for the answer as well.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (peck @ Aug. 04 2002,09:49)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lacy,
 That used to be me alright!!  A big "I know it all".

  Now I am just A Big "I Don't Nothing or Squat"!!

Could that be a humbling experience?  I hope so!!  Well, at least now I try to let God lead me and now I pray more for understanding and wisdom.  Where as before it was more like " Thank you God, for letting me be Right".  Of course I didn't actually pray this, but might as well have because that was my attitude. That is what he heard.  I am so ashamed!!

Thank you God for putting up with my arrogance!!!!!!! and forgiving me daily!!!!!!!!!!!
Susie[/quote]
Susie,

That was so cute.I don't know squat about much,but I know an humble person as yourself has a lot of influence on members of the church.Thanks for being you.

God bless,Charles[/quote]
You are so very right Charles.  It's a virtue and if one can lead by the example then powr to them.  

I know, I come off like a pompous arrogant jerk on this forum but I mean well.  Call it tough love.  Let me throw out a tidbit for thought.

Folks who have the misfortune to endure a legalistic doctrine are often made to feel low in order to keep them in line and to keep them from thinking.  It's like brainwashing, and if that's what it takes to keep people in the fold I would certainly want to question the party line.  

My advice to susieface and others is to not sell yourselves short.  Jesus expected his apostles to be humble, and yet he expected them to have the strength of convictions to carry his message throughout a land that was very hostile to him.
I have just withstood an onslaught of dogma and bigotry, and although I didn't win a thing by it I came through it a stronger Christian.  I may not know much, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I load a load of dung when I see it.  Keep the faith, put your best foot forward, and give it your best shot.  That's all anyone, including Jesus, can expect from mere mortals.

[janine]

God gets bigger, just as our parents get smarter in many ways, as we grow up.

[Eric]

I liked the post statement, "I don't know, but I know where to find the answer."  My wife learned that as an Accountant, you cannot know everything that you need to know for that job, but what is important to learn is where to look for the answers.  Perhaps that is what we as Christians need to learn the most (looking to God first, instead of some of our old standbys - food, TV, other people, psychologist, or whatever).  

As to do I use the words, I work for a church, and I offered a class called "What does the Bible say About ..."  and told people to bring their questions and I would try to provide scriptural answers for the questions.  The most difficult was about Divorce and Remarriage.  I found that while I could provide answers to the questions I faced, I tried to make sure people understood that this was how I was reading and understanding the Bible.  I was not locked into a position of saying that my understanding could not change.  It is okay to offer your opinion, but you must allow for being wrong, being corrected, and differences of opinion on matters that do not impact the salvation of others (to define that I think I will claim I do not know :) ).

Eric

[s1n4m1n]

Booty,

Actually I hear "I don't know" a good bit, which kind of worries me.

Ken

[nerdneh]

Of course, this idea of Booty's has some apostolic support:
Consider 1st Corinthians 8:1, the opening topic is food sacrificed to idols, but I believe the principle is true in other cases: (This is my translation):
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Now about food sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge; knowledge inflates us, but love builds us up. If anyone thinks he knows anything, he does not know exactly as he is supposed to know, but if anyone loves God, this person is known by him.[/quote]

Too many "know-it-alls" spoil a church. Take that back, even one know-it-all can spoil a mess of fellowship.

[peck]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (susieface @ Aug. 03 2002,9:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lacy,
 That used to be me alright!!  A big "I know it all".

  Now I am just A Big "I Don't Nothing or Squat"!!

Could that be a humbling experience?  I hope so!!  Well, at least now I try to let God lead me and now I pray more for understanding and wisdom.  Where as before it was more like " Thank you God, for letting me be Right".  Of course I didn't actually pray this, but might as well have because that was my attitude. That is what he heard.  I am so ashamed!!

Thank you God for putting up with my arrogance!!!!!!! and forgiving me daily!!!!!!!!!!!
Susie[/quote]
Susie,

That was so cute.I don't know squat about much,but I know an humble person as yourself has a lot of influence on members of the church.Thanks for being you.

God bless,Charles

[susieface]

Thank you,  Lacy and Peck!!

Lacy, you are so right!!

But, Peck believe me,  I have a long way to go on the humble thingy.  But, it is coming because of prayer and some of the brainier people on here.  Don't deny, you know who you are.  Must be rough!!

Susie

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Sep. 24 2002,04:29)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lacy,
 That used to be me alright!!  A big "I know it all".

  Now I am just A Big "I Don't Nothing or Squat"!!

Could that be a humbling experience?  I hope so!!  Well, at least now I try to let God lead me and now I pray more for understanding and wisdom.  Where as before it was more like " Thank you God, for letting me be Right".  Of course I didn't actually pray this, but might as well have because that was my attitude. That is what he heard.  I am so ashamed!!

Thank you God for putting up with my arrogance!!!!!!! and forgiving me daily!!!!!!!!!!!
Susie[/quote]
Susie,

That was so cute.I don't know squat about much,but I know an humble person as yourself has a lot of influence on members of the church.Thanks for being you.

God bless,Charles[/quote]
You are so very right Charles.  It's a virtue and if one can lead by the example then powr to them.  

I know, I come off like a pompous arrogant jerk on this forum but I mean well.  Call it tough love.  Let me throw out a tidbit for thought.

Folks who have the misfortune to endure a legalistic doctrine are often made to feel low in order to keep them in line and to keep them from thinking.  It's like brainwashing, and if that's what it takes to keep people in the fold I would certainly want to question the party line.  

My advice to susieface and others is to not sell yourselves short.  Jesus expected his apostles to be humble, and yet he expected them to have the strength of convictions to carry his message throughout a land that was very hostile to him.
I have just withstood an onslaught of dogma and bigotry, and although I didn't win a thing by it I came through it a stronger Christian.  I may not know much, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I load a load of dung when I see it.  Keep the faith, put your best foot forward, and give it your best shot.  That's all anyone, including Jesus, can expect from mere mortals.[/quote]
Correction:  I know a load of dung when I see it.  Yeah, being a farm boy, I have shoveled a little of it in my day.

[Arkstfan]

I know a lot less now about the rules and how God acts in what we see as the gray areas than I did 10 years ago but I also know a bigger God today who is much stronger and much more capable of handling decisions on the gray areas than he was when he followed my interpretations.

[Eric]

I liked the post statement, "I don't know, but I know where to find the answer."  My wife learned that as an Accountant, you cannot know everything that you need to know for that job, but what is important to learn is where to look for the answers.  Perhaps that is what we as Christians need to learn the most (looking to God first, instead of some of our old standbys - food, TV, other people, psychologist, or whatever).  

As to do I use the words, I work for a church, and I offered a class called "What does the Bible say About ..."  and told people to bring their questions and I would try to provide scriptural answers for the questions.  The most difficult was about Divorce and Remarriage.  I found that while I could provide answers to the questions I faced, I tried to make sure people understood that this was how I was reading and understanding the Bible.  I was not locked into a position of saying that my understanding could not change.  It is okay to offer your opinion, but you must allow for being wrong, being corrected, and differences of opinion on matters that do not impact the salvation of others (to define that I think I will claim I do not know :) ).

Eric

[3peace1]

Interesting thread, topic by name, context, and contents.
I had to look up "recalcitrants"

...the recalcitrants...

and of all of any within; and those whom
may have absense to any this latter; (see it as quoted, then I will add)of those who:

... who do not have 'i
do not know' in their active vocabulary will soon be told 'YOU do not
know'...

Interesting, whether we know, or think we know; or even then, those with "no interest at all"..(...of them, I'm figureing, its the hypocracy, and the bagering, and the typecasting, that they have "no interest in", that they would think of any ignorant to think anything else than "we all are working together for some form of the same thing, that a Christian preaches, especially if its by what "they see" as what most christians practice ")
(Links deleted per Rule 3.3)
Searching that phrase out myself without quotes: (Deleted per Rule 3.3)
I found some Irony in one result :
KJV comprehension test//Suffer// the little children to come unto me (Mark 10:14). a. Put up with; b. Suffer while; c. Be patient while; d. Allow. 29. The Lord is my Shepherd; ...
bible-translation.110mb.com/kjv-test.htm

(Deleted per Rule 3.3)