How can a non catholic do gods will

[Adamski]

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

[MeMyself]

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

Sigh.

Moving on...

[4WD]

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

And there are probably more than a few who can't see how a Catholic can do God's will while they are in their church.  And they might even say in a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian to be Catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there.

With respect to both, I agree with MeMyself.



Sigh,

Moving on....

[Charlie24]

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

It was my understanding the Catholics are the only Christians.

extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

Am I correct?

[Buster D Body Crab]

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

I think if you wish to be in communion with the Pope that you should follow your heart and become a Roman Catholic.
However, there is a difference between those who are in communion with the Pope as Roman Catholics and those who are in communion with Christ and are Christian.

Katholikismos, from the Greek, which the New Testament was written in, translates to "Universal". All Christians are therefore Katholikismos. The universal church in Christ and of Christ as Christians.

That is not the same thing as the Roman Catholic rite, or those who are Roman Catholic and therefore are in communion with the Pope of Rome.

All Christians are Katholikismos. 

Hope that helps you.

(Thank you "Nevertheless" )

[chosenone]

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

Its very easy to do Gods will while not going to a R Catholic church. Billions of people do so every day. 

[Buster D Body Crab]

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

Its very easy to do Gods will while not going to a R Catholic church. Billions of people do so every day.

Amen.

What makes Adamski believe the Romans Catholic Church is "God's church"?

[Red Baker]

Buster D Body Crab you said the following :All Christians are Katholikismos. But Roman Catholics are not Christian.

You have violated rule 1.5. You will be reported.

Maybe he should have just worded it the way that the OP said the same thing, just differently!

I can't see how a non catholic can do Gods will while they are not in his church. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

Seem like both are saying the same thing, just differently.  If not the same, they are very close. 

Maybe Buster D Body Crab (wow, that's a mouth full!) should be given a chance to be more specific.  God has "some" children that are Catholics for sure, only they are not converted to the truth.  Much like some Pharisees in the NT were children of God, but not converted until later on~Nicodemus being a prime example. 

In a modern world it seems like an extremely weak argument for a Christian not to be catholic if they are truly seeking God with all the information out there

Why I am not a Catholic.................... "if they are truly seeking God"~There is so much that is in the Catholic church that is NOT in the scriptures. 

[Ladonia]

No, they are not the same at all. The op never said the non-Catholic was not a Christian, but Buster D Body Crab clearly said Roman Catholics are not Christian.

[chosenone]

No, they are not the same at all. The op never said the non-Catholic was not a Christian, but Buster D Body Crab clearly said Roman Catholics are not Christian.

he said they are not doing Gods will, so as good as saying they are going against God. Not too different suely?

[Charlie24]

No, they are not the same at all. The op never said the non-Catholic was not a Christian, but Buster D Body Crab clearly said Roman Catholics are not Christian.

Why do the Catholics always cry foul? This has been said many times and I am yet to see a Catholic prove they are Christians. They always claim, we have been violated.

If you come over to the theology forum you will learn how to defend yourself instead of whinning.

[Adamski]

I came to Christ in a non denominational church at the age of 32 currently 39 had very limited exposure to Christianity as a child and zero as a 20 something

Why do I think the Roman Catholic church is the church Jesus founded

I will list the first 3 reasons that come to mind

1- the bible says God is a God or order and since bible alone isn't in the bible the concept of bible alone has lead to division

2- consistent teaching
If you read all the early church fathers, creeds and councils the catholic church hasn't changed its moral teaching of theology.  But proteatantism is ever changing to suit the world, remarriage, contraception, abortion, gay so called marriage even how to get saved

3-current miracles proteatantism or any religion doesn't have any well documented miracles but the catholic church has incurptible saints, our lady of Fatima, Lourdes and Guadalupe, Eucharistic miracles such as sienna, Luciano, seattle, Beunios Aries.

[Buster D Body Crab]

No, they are not the same at all. The op never said the non-Catholic was not a Christian, but Buster D Body Crab clearly said Roman Catholics are not Christian.

You're correct that is exactly what I said. Roman Catholics are not Christian. They're Roman Catholics. Their allegiance is to the church that acts as intercessor to God. That is not Christian. And it is not in keeping at all with the scriptures. Therefore, they are not Christian. They are Roman Catholic. They hold faith in the church. Not Christ alone and above all else.
Roman Catholics know this.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Buster D Body Crab you said the following :All Christians are Katholikismos. But Roman Catholics are not Christian.

You have violated rule 1.5. You will be reported.

Speaking of and to the Roman Catholic faith and tradition is not in violation of a rule as pertains to  rule 1.5.

Thank you.

And to clarify before this becomes about me.

Rule 1.5 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian if he or she genuinely believes in Jesus Christ as the savior of human beings from hell and claims to have demonstrable faith in Him.

I did not make a statement against any individual Roman Catholic member of this forum.
The Roman Catholic Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church bears proof itself of my observations, as any Roman Catholic knows.

Copied and Pasted invoking "Fair Use" for Educational Purposes. Source: The Vatican's own publication.


III. The Knowledge of God According to the Church

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error".14




11 Vatican Council I, Dei Filius 2: DS 3004 cf. 3026; Vatican Council
   II, Dei Verbum 6.


12 Cf. ⇒ Gen 1:27


13 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3875.


14 Pius XII, Humani generis 561: DS 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2: DS 3005;
   DV 6; St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th I, I, I.

[chosenone]

I came to Christ in a non denominational church at the age of 32 currently 39 had very limited exposure to Christianity as a child and zero as a 20 something

Why do I think the Roman Catholic church is the church Jesus founded

I will list the first 3 reasons that come to mind

1- the bible says God is a God or order and since bible alone isn't in the bible the concept of bible alone has lead to division

2- consistent teaching
If you read all the early church fathers, creeds and councils the catholic church hasn't changed its moral teaching of theology.  But proteatantism is ever changing to suit the world, remarriage, contraception, abortion, gay so called marriage even how to get saved

3-current miracles proteatantism or any religion doesn't have any well documented miracles but the catholic church has incurptible saints, our lady of Fatima, Lourdes and Guadalupe, Eucharistic miracles such as sienna, Luciano, seattle, Beunios Aries.

How is it then that the RC church has far more errors and man made doctrine than any other denomination?

There have been countless miracles done outside the RC church. I myself know several cases of miraculous healings.
BY the way The Bible says we are all saints, and all equal in Gods sight. The saints thing is yet another man made teaching. 

[Charlie24]

No, they are not the same at all. The op never said the non-Catholic was not a Christian, but Buster D Body Crab clearly said Roman Catholics are not Christian.

You're correct that is exactly what I said. Roman Catholics are not Christian. They're Roman Catholics. Their allegiance is to the church that acts as intercessor to God. That is not Christian. And it is not in keeping at all with the scriptures. Therefore, they are not Christian. They are Roman Catholic. They hold faith in the church. Not Christ alone and above all else.
Roman Catholics know this.

If they boot you out Buster, they will have to do the same to me because you are RIGHT.

The Catholics need to stop pointing fingers and start proving some scripture just the way everyone else does around here.

[Alan]

Very simply put, to do God's will all one must do is read their Bible and become acquainted with what the scriptures are referring to, the references are all in there but If there is a place in the Bible that is telling us we must join the RCC, I must be missing it 

[Buster D Body Crab]

Very simply put, to do God's will all one must do is read their Bible and become acquainted with what the scriptures are referring to, the references are all in there but If there is a place in the Bible that is telling us we must join the RCC, I must be missing it 

True and Amen.


Also, Christians believe that salvation is by faith alone. This is not the case in the Roman Catholic tradition.They teach the Roman Catholic attains salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments. Sola Fide was done away with by the Roman Catholic Council of Trent.

Furthermore, Christians believe in one God. There are no emmisaries, no benefactors between us and God. This is not the case with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and their Catechism. The commandment, Exodus 20:3, that we shall have no other God's before God is revoked in the Catechism of the RCC.
They deify saints and Mary.
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

[Buster D Body Crab]

As a point of information, besides that afforded by the Vatican's own Catechism, I wanted to post this article. The source is a Christian Apologist and his research ministry.


Is Roman Catholicism and Christianity the same thing?

To be clear, this is not saying that Roman Catholics are not good people. Of course not. Rather, this is to reiterate the original remarks that I made in particular with regard to the OP statement/question as pertains to non-Catholics. Which in and of itself can be seen as an attack on Christians because they are not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church.

The point is, if someone wants to do God's will they must first have faith in God and arrive at repentance and receive salvation by his grace. This is a gift freely given by God after the sacrifice of his son Christ on the cross. The cross, Jesus, saved the world. Holding faith in God and the salvation afforded at the cross is how one begins to find their way to doing God's will.

[Adamski]

Why would I argue scripture what ever I said you would dismiss like you do to each other

I find it extemely funny that a person can take genesis literally and dismiss john 6
I know my bible but why should I argue with someone with thier hands over thier ears


One faith one lord on baptism eph 4:5

One faith not 38,000

Jesus said he would never leave us if Protestantism is true Jesus left

[k-pappy]

If you read all the early church fathers, creeds and councils the catholic church hasn't changed its moral teaching of theology.

Umm...there have been 21 Church councils in the RCC...each one made changes to RCC Dogma.

[chosenone]

Why would I argue scripture what ever I said you would dismiss like you do to each other

I find it extemely funny that a person can take genesis literally and dismiss john 6
I know my bible but why should I argue with someone with thier hands over thier ears


One faith one lord on baptism eph 4:5

One faith not 38,000

Jesus said he would never leave us if Protestantism is true Jesus left

There is one faith, faith in Jesus Christ as our saviour.

[Adamski]

Why would I argue scripture what ever I said you would dismiss like you do to each other

I find it extemely funny that a person can take genesis literally and dismiss john 6
I know my bible but why should I argue with someone with thier hands over thier ears


One faith one lord on baptism eph 4:5

One faith not 38,000

Jesus said he would never leave us if Protestantism is true Jesus left

There is one faith, faith in Jesus Christ as our saviour.

Is that the pcusa gay Jesus, the church of Christ loose your salvation Jesus or the baptist once saved always saved married 3 times Jesus?

[Adamski]

If you read all the early church fathers, creeds and councils the catholic church hasn't changed its moral teaching of theology.

Umm...there have been 21 Church councils in the RCC...each one made changes to RCC Dogma.

You are 100% wrong have you read the documents in Latin

No, the Church cannot change its doctrines no matter how badly some theologians may want it to or how loudly they claim it can. The doctrines of the Catholic Church are the deposit of faith revealed by Jesus Christ, taught by the apostles, and handed down in their entirety by the apostles to their successors. Since revealed truth cannot change, and since the deposit of faith is comprised of revealed truth, expressed in Scripture and Sacred Tradition, the deposit of faith cannot change.

While it's certainly true that our Lord's words to the apostles in Matthew 18:18-19 grant authority to the apostles to "bind" the members of the Church to believe the doctrines of the Church ("He who listens to you listens to me. He who rejects you rejects me and the one who sent me" [Luke 10:16]), the "loosing" spoken of in Mathew. 18:18 does not mean the apostles can modify doctrine.

The Church does not have the power to do the impossible, to change or delete divinely revealed truth which forms the deposit of faith. Rather, the concept of loosing, as it pertains to the apostles and their successors, has more to do the Church's ability to dispense individuals or the whole Church from observing certain ecclesiastical disciplines. There are many examples of this authority to bind and loose in the arena of Church discipline. Here are a few:

In the early Church married men were permitted to be ordained as priests in the West. This custom was changed in the tenth century and since then, in the Latin Rite, candidates for the priesthood must be celibate.
Until recent years it was forbidden under pain of mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays. The Church has "loosed" this discipline and now allows the faithful to eat meat on Fridays provided some other act of mortification is performed.
Prior to Vatican II, the pre-Communion fast extended from midnight until the time one received Communion; no food or water were to be consumed. This discipline was relaxed first to a three-hour fast and then to the one-hour fast the Church now observes.
Matthew 18 also refers to the Church's authority to bind and loose with regard to sin. Every priest has the authority of Christ to "loose" (absolve) penitents from their sins through the sacrament of confession (Jn 20:21-22, 2 Cor 5:18-20). The priest also has the obligation, in rare cases when he sees no evidence of contrition or an unwillingness on the part of the penitent to stop committing sin, to "bind" someone in their sins by refusing to grant him absolution until he evinces genuine contrition.
The faithful may gain indulgences through corporal and spiritual acts of charity, certain prayers, and pilgrimages, and are thus, by the authority of the Church's power to bind and loose, able to receive partial or complete remission of all temporal punishment due to sin. Through indulgences the Church may loose Christians from the duty of penance which would otherwise need to be performed.
Certain forms of excommunication may be "loosed" only by a bishop or, in graver circumstances, only by the Holy See.
Priests and religious who request it can be "loosed" (dispensed) from their vows of celibacy (and, in the case of religious, the vows of poverty and obedience).
None of these issues deals with doctrine as such (since doctrine is unchangeable) but with Church discipline, government, and penance.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Why would I argue scripture what ever I said you would dismiss like you do to each other

I find it extemely funny that a person can take genesis literally and dismiss john 6
I know my bible but why should I argue with someone with thier hands over thier ears


One faith one lord on baptism eph 4:5

One faith not 38,000

Jesus said he would never leave us if Protestantism is true Jesus left

Clearly you're a bit upset. I don't think you do yourself or your faith a service by turning this into a protestant bashing so as to further your notion that the RCC is superior.

A bit like who's billy-club is bigger. When both cudgels can do harm it all comes down to the character of the person swinging, no?

[chosenone]

Why would I argue scripture what ever I said you would dismiss like you do to each other

I find it extemely funny that a person can take genesis literally and dismiss john 6
I know my bible but why should I argue with someone with thier hands over thier ears


One faith one lord on baptism eph 4:5

One faith not 38,000

Jesus said he would never leave us if Protestantism is true Jesus left

There is one faith, faith in Jesus Christ as our saviour.

Is that the pcusa gay Jesus, the church of Christ loose your salvation Jesus or the baptist once saved always saved married 3 times Jesus?

Jesus Christ as we know from the Bible, you know, Gods only begotten Son???

[Ladonia]

Chosenone said: How it then that the RC church has far more errors and man made doctrine than any other denomination?


And who says this, you?  I can easily say that the thousands of other Christian sects are the ones full of errors and man made doctrines,  that they are the one's who are misinterpreting the Scriptures and rejecting the Christian faith tradition that was at one time the only Christian church in existence.

[Ladonia]

Buster D Body Crab said: "The cross, Jesus, saved the world. Holding faith in God and the salvation afforded at the cross is how one begins to find their way to doing God's will".

Which is exactly the focal point of our worship service, the Mass which is Jesus at Calvary, his saving grace, the great memorial, the Last Supper, where we do as he tells us, to eat his body and drink his blood.

While your focal point is the pulpit.

[4WD]

Buster D Body Crab said: "The cross, Jesus, saved the world. Holding faith in God and the salvation afforded at the cross is how one begins to find their way to doing God's will".

Which is exactly the focal point of our worship service, the Mass which is Jesus at Calvary, his saving grace, the great memorial, the Last Supper, where we do as he tells us, to eat his body and drink his blood.

While your focal point is the pulpit.

No, our focal point, at least mine, is the risen Jesus who gave his life on the cross for the propitiation [ransom] for our sins.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Buster D Body Crab said: "The cross, Jesus, saved the world. Holding faith in God and the salvation afforded at the cross is how one begins to find their way to doing God's will".

Which is exactly the focal point of our worship service, the Mass which is Jesus at Calvary, his saving grace, the great memorial, the Last Supper, where we do as he tells us, to eat his body and drink his blood.

While your focal point is the pulpit.

As I stated, it is clear you are upset and that is why now you are resorting to nonsense proclamations that simply prove you know nothing about the Protestant faith.
Further, it is rather disingenuous of you to quickly report a post for it's content and then resort to behavior that is easily on the line of reporting itself.

Please stop attacking the Protestants of this forum. This is the Catholic Debate forum and that does not mean it gives license to assault Protestant Christians from a Catholic point of view. Especially when one is ignorant of the community they wish to attack. That doesn't make Protestants look bad...

[chosenone]

Chosenone said: How it then that the RC church has far more errors and man made doctrine than any other denomination?


And who says this, you?  I can easily say that the thousands of other Christian sects are the ones full of errors and man made doctrines,  that they are the one's who are misinterpreting the Scriptures and rejecting the Christian faith tradition that was at one time the only Christian church in existence.

Thats why I seek churches who stick most closely to the scriptures, and many do.   

[Ladonia]

Charlie24 said: "The Catholics need to stop pointing fingers and start proving some scripture just the way everyone else does around here".


We can point out the Scriptures to buttress our claims, but you will just reject what we say. 

For instance, we claim that Jesus is truly present in the Holy Eucharist. Did he not say "This IS my Body, and this IS my blood? And there are other verses that can be cited along those lines, PLUS the tradition of the Christian Church from the beginning and the early Bishops of that same church that taught that and just about Christian in the whole world believed that.

But no, sometime, somewhere, somebody decided that was not true. Ummmm, a man made doctrine perhaps?

[chosenone]

Buster D Body Crab said: "The cross, Jesus, saved the world. Holding faith in God and the salvation afforded at the cross is how one begins to find their way to doing God's will".

Which is exactly the focal point of our worship service, the Mass which is Jesus at Calvary, his saving grace, the great memorial, the Last Supper, where we do as he tells us, to eat his body and drink his blood.

While your focal point is the pulpit.

No, our focal point, at least mine, is the risen Jesus who gave his life on the cross for the propitiation [ransom] for our sins.

Amen, my only focal point is Jesus Christ who died for me.

[4WD]

Why would I argue scripture what ever I said you would dismiss like you do to each other

I find it extemely funny that a person can take genesis literally and dismiss john 6
I know my bible but why should I argue with someone with thier hands over thier ears


One faith one lord on baptism eph 4:5

One faith not 38,000

Jesus said he would never leave us if Protestantism is true Jesus left

There is one faith, faith in Jesus Christ as our saviour.

Is that the pcusa gay Jesus, the church of Christ loose your salvation Jesus or the baptist once saved always saved married 3 times Jesus?

Given all the pedophile priests that have been kept from prosecution and shipped off to other parishes in recent years in the RCC, you probably ought to avoid that "your-denomination-is-worse-than-mine" discussion.

[Ladonia]

Chosenone said: That's why I seek churches who stick most closely to the scriptures, and many do.


There you go again, intimating that we don't. That's only YOUR viewpoint and one that I and many others reject completely. You know, people who are Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Malakites, to name just three and who believe in orthodoxy the way I do