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Author Topic: "Christianity, Then and Now"  (Read 7355 times)

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"Christianity, Then and Now"
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2003, 06:00:46 AM »
may i suggest that we post in love about mr. waddey and not let our posts decline into degrading him?

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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2003, 06:00:46 AM »

Offline Sylvia

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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2003, 05:30:53 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]kebecer1,

I really think you're perspective is clouded by a post-modern bent. There is no more ecumenical harmony in the rest of Christendom than in the coC. :frowning:[/quote]
 
It may be possible that in the universal church there are differences between what denominations think and do but within my own sect we are fat dumb and happy.  Perhaps I misunderstand your use of the word ecumenical, but can you really expect the same degree of harmony between 2 billion people of many nations and of many cultures?  Is it sensible to compare  the
few million of the CoC movement to the 2 billion of the world?
 
I think you are being defensive.  Never in my life have I seen such disunity over petty issues as I have seen on the faith based forums that are dominated by CoC posters.  
 
I see so many parallel with Judaism and the CoC outlook.  The Jews claimed to be the chosen ones and thought themselves more righteous than their neighors, and yet they have struggled for thousands of years and still haven't got their act together.  I think it is so fitting to call the CoC a movement because within Judaism there are a number of movements.  
They went down hill when they started making up their own rules rather than listening to the Lord, so take a tip from the wise and profit from their mistakes.  History is repeating itself right in your faith group and you are too blind to see it.  Am I being critical.  Maybe, but I'm saying "pull out pull out", before you crash and burn.
  
Disunity can really hurt a belief system.  In modern day Israel there are roughly 25 percent of the populatlon that don't claim to be religious.  With so many splinter groups they, like so many humans with half a brain, have simply walked away from the whole shattered mess.  
 
Emperor Constantine was very interested in the Christian religion because he had so much division in his Empire in the spiritual sense and in the political sense.  Pagan idols were on every street corner so to speak and there wasn't any one faith group large enough to be chosen as the official state religion.  Christianity claimed to be monotheistic, meaning only one God, which to him facilitated unity of beliefs, so he chose Christianity to be the state religion of the Roman Empire.  The orthodox definition of the Holy Trinity was developed at his urging in order to bring even more unity to his newly selected religion.
 
What's my point?  When you have autonomy, as did the ancient Jews and the pagan believers of the Roman Empire, you will have disunity.  Cohesiveness and sameness of purpose seems to be oxymoronical to diversity, but believe it or not, the sects that allow a little wiggle room in their doctrine, such as the UMC, have been relatively successful in carrying Christ's Word to the people.  Their numbers prove it.

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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2003, 05:30:53 AM »

Offline memmy

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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2003, 05:52:20 AM »
Richard, Thanks so much for the response :thumbs-up: ! I was beginning to think that I was invisible here, maybe that puts me in the same boat as Booty [?]
Sorry, I do not wish to hurt anyones feelings here at all. I was just curious about why the comments [from a moderator,] with no explanation to boot [no pun intended]  
    ;)
Oh well, thanks for the brief words anyway to try and help explain to me what was said and why, guess I'll stick around awhile if that's ok.
By the way, everyone [Moms] HAPPY MOTHER"S DAY!
[Today I get a double blessing, it just happens to be my Birthday too.] The blessing to me is that I still have my Mom and I think we should celebrate birthdays for our Mothers anyway, we didn't ask to be here, right? She is the one who chose me. All of those children out there that are blessed with a wonderful Mom too, we should thank them on our birthdays. I know.........
  :offtopic: sorry, just seemed important to say :thumbs-up:  :D Memmy

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2003, 06:34:55 PM »
keb, come down to Florence, Alabama-we'll work with ya! We, too, are routinely accused by our conservative brethren of a whole host of "unscriptural" practices; in our case, I just wish half of em' were true! :D

Pax vobiscum.

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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2003, 06:34:55 PM »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline crocless aussie

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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2003, 01:28:49 PM »
Booty

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Don't stop half way!! Come all the way South!! Mi casa es tu casa!![/quote]

Technically, you are only halfway south!  Come ALL the way to the Great South Land and we'll chuck another prawn on the barbie!

Allan

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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2003, 01:28:49 PM »



Offline Booty

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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2003, 06:05:41 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Trois @ May 13 2003,09:58)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Thanks kebecer1,

But I am definitely not a "sister". I am quite male. The funny thing is that's the second time that has happened on this board! Do my remarks seem a little too "sensitive" for a guy?:rant:  (Boy! This is really hilarious. If you ever see me you'll know why. I'm 6'3" and about 289 pounds! Praise God I recently lost 72 pounds {not money but weight :rolleyes: }, but I'm still no small guy buy any stretch of the imagination :noworries:)    

I thought ellisadam was a lady until I saw him refer to himself in the masculine. I think his name is pronounced ellis-adam. I was pronouncing it ellisa-dam (e-leesa-damm). Go figure! :lookaround:[/quote]
No Fate...(aka Trois) is a buxom blonde dowager because I said so!!


And I am Winston Churchill!

Offline winky

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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2003, 12:16:35 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think your problem lies in thinking there should be only one POV in Christianity, the CoC POV.  Sorry, but it isn't going to happen in your lifetime, so get used to it.

Your attitude that there can be only one way, the CoC way, is at odds with your desire for unity. [/quote]

Um, I didn't see Trois saying this anywhere in his post.

In fact, he said

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm not saying only people who see it "my way" are in God's church.[/quote]

What you seem to be saying is the problem with Churches of Christ (that we insist we are the only ones who have it right and want everyone to change to be like us) is the very same thing you seem to be doing on this forum (advocating how great the UMC is and wanting to change the Church of Christ to be more like the UMC). Does that make sense?

I have not heard anyone on this board (although there might be one or two random people who believe it) claim that C of C has everything right. In fact, that's practically the whole point of this forum, examining our practices and doctrines in light of scripture and being willing to change when needed (hence the infamous term "change agents"!). But you have to understand that it is hard to accept advice from someone who is not involved in the C of C, who comes in and starts criticizing everything about it (some of your criticisms we already realized beforehand and are working on, some we don't necessarily agree with you, some we do). It does sometimes come off as superior and consdescending, although you may not mean for it to.

This is just personal opinion here, but I think you'd get a better response if you'd stay away from saying things along the lines of "here's where the C of C is wrong" or "the UMC/my sect does it this way and it works great" and just offer your personal opinions on specific topics without having the agenda of trying to point out and correct all of the problems of the C of C or apply the UMC practices to the C of C. Do you see what I mean?

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Wendy

Offline Trois

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« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2003, 05:43:01 PM »
Wow. Methinks Sylvia is really full of him/herself (you still didn't say which one you were) to think that you can define the coC better than the coC. Is that a UMC thing or a Sylvia thing? Also it's very interesting how you can blow off the gay thing as inconsequential, when it is a BIG issue of division even though you're not autonomous. But can't seem to see the beautiful unity that many in the coC do enjoy, in spite of our bickering and infighting. As I recall the idea of being able to think independantly without having to answer to headquarters was also a characteristic of the first century church.

You also said that [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] It is not my intent to criticize the CoC in a judgemental manner or to pit one sect's beliefs against another sect's beliefs.  I'll be the first to admit that Methodists  sometimes have disunity but there is a practical way to solve such issues.[/quote]
We believe that way is the scriptures not edicts from on high (even though sometimes I wish somebody would say, "Hey, this is what it is! Now shut up and go home!" :rolleyes:

Offline Sylvia

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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2003, 11:20:58 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I repeat where did your sect get the right to disagree with the Pope, Bishops, etc... about leaving the Roman Catholic faith?[/quote]
I honestly don't know but it appears to me that the RM folks were never a part of the RC either.  I suppose the Reformation people had the same thing in mind as the RM folks, to avoid false teaching.  Do we need winky's approval to pursue this?
  
Once again, what basis is there in scripture for autonomy.  I honestly don't know because it has never been an issue for me.  
 
Let me offer something about being in a denomination that you may or not know, but since I am interested in sharing my views with anyone who may be on board I want to share this.
This represents tradition and in that respect is a parallel view of the RM tradition, which is very important to Coc people, or so it seems. The idea is not to promote denominationalism but to dispel the myths that are associated with them.
  
Denominations typically have what is generaly known as apportionment payments, which are made by the congregations to the next higher level in the denomination, and some of that is passed on up thru the higher levels of the church organization.  These payments are not popular with the average member but they serve some practical purposes.
 
I am not aware of all the purposes the apportionment payments serve but here's a rudimentary list that will illustrate their intentions.
 
1. Some of the money is used to pay the salaries and expenses of the higher level authorities because these folks typically do not draw from the contributions of their own congregation.  Expenses would be travel expenses, office supplies, utilities, and the like.  It seems that our district superintendent shares the facilities of a church in the city where he is located.
 
2.  Some of the money is used to promote communication amongst the congregations.  Newsletters, training aids, and other helpful literature and info. in cyber form is distributed throughout the domain so that every one has access to the same stuff.  
 
3.  Money is also set aside for international missionary work, contigencies such as natural disasters affecting church property, and disaster relief efforts for impacted areas.
 
4.  Don't quote me on this, but a small part of the apportionments may be used to subsidize small rural congregations that cannot raise enough money to pay a minister.  Small country churches tpyically share a pastor with another church, and the combined budget of both congregations is devoted in part to the salaries and expenses of the pastors.  Many pastors moonlight because their preacher pay just isn't enough to serve their needs.
 
5.  It is also possible that a small amount of the denomination's funds are made available in the form of a low cost loan to congregations needing funds for building projects.  I don't know this to be a fact.
 
6. It is possible that some of the apportionments are used to support the education of new ministers and to support training programs for lamen.  We have lay ministers who can serve as needed at the discretion of the pastor.
 
In presenting this information I am not trying to justify the use of denominations on a sriptural basis because there probably isn't any.  However the early church was born in poverty and was manned by dedicated followers of Christ.
Many donated their time and worked for free, living off the land and at the mercy of gratious hosts as they carried the Word throughout ancient Palestine.  
 
As time went on people learned to organize in order to promote the Lord's mission, and once again, there may not be an explicit scriptural basis for such organization, but I think there is a general authorization in the words of Christ when he asked people to give up their earthly treasures and even their families if necessary, and to follow Him.  This is to me a call to do our best to serve Him, and if being organized will improve our performance then I think that Christ would approve of it as long as it served His needs and not just mortal agendas.

Offline brandt

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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2003, 10:44:18 AM »
The first paragraph of the homepage contains these sentences:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Shall we continue in the old paths of New Testament Christianity that our predecessors in the faith traveled, or shall we change our direction? The road to the right is the road of ultra conservatism that inevitably leads to radicalism, faction and division. The road to the left is the road of liberalism.[/quote]

The entire website is against "the road to the left".  So, does that mean that it is okay to be radical, factional, and divisive?

Offline Trois

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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2003, 02:29:29 PM »
kebecer1,

I really think you're perspective is clouded by a post-modern bent. There is no more ecumenical harmony in the rest of Christendom than in the coC. :frowning:

Offline charlie

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« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2003, 06:38:42 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]There were no church of Christer's, no Baptists, no Catholics, no Methodists; we were just 15,000 Christians. I wish everyone could experience that just once.
[/quote]
Sounds like heaven. I'm afraid that if something like that happened around here (if it hasn't already) I wouldn't even hear about it. Makes you wonder if we'd even realize it when Christ returns.

Offline Lee Freeman

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« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2003, 01:11:51 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lee

Just want to say that I hope God allows me the opportunity this side of Glory to meet you, shake your hand and tell you face to face how much I've appreciated being able to see into your heart.  (Actually, there's something bright and glowing there in that heart of yours and the Source is very evident. )  A pleasure to know you in this capacity, at least.

Continued blessings, brother.

Steve[/quote]
Steve, thank you, though I'm not worthy. I sense that same Christ-like Spirit in you as well. I hope to meet you. :)

Brandt, ditto. We should all (all of us from this board) try to get together sometime.

Pax vobiscum.

Offline janine

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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2003, 04:03:32 AM »
The first time I saw Acappella (then four stiff young white guys in identical grey suits) perform live was at a church meeting at the South Baton Rouge congregation.  Mid-80's?  

This was a concert for our edification and enjoyment - many got worship out of it, of course, due to topics of songs, but it was clearly not a "worship service", so those with hangups about that should not have been offended.

I clapped in rhythm, I clapped in applause, but I was far from over-demonstrative, and I was not the only one.

The man next to me - about 8 feet away in the pew - spent more time looking at me than he did the stage.

Poor man!  I wonder if he even heard the music?  Shoud I have sat on my hands for the sake of his conscience?  I was a brand new Christian then, I hadn't yet learned to knuckle under.  (Yeah, I do submission so well now...)

Hah, the poor guy would have curled up on the floor like a dehydrating beetle grub if he'd been forced to sit by me at events in the years after that first concert.  Dancing, clapping, singing the lyrics back at the stage. Shameful.  Disgraceful.  

Fun!   :clap:

Offline Booty

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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2003, 02:54:06 PM »
I am allready pleasantly surprised Marc, the following is the reply I received and my subsequent followup.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Dear Brojees:

thanks for your note.  I check the website you mentioned.  It is operated and
patronized by  folks, some of whom evidently have some connection with
Churches of Christ, but whose views are foreign to the simple Christianity
revealed in the NT.  They represent a small minority among the brotherhood of
 Churches of Christ, and they have far more in common with denominational
bodies such as the Disciples of Christ, Christian Churches and Baptist
Churches.  Given time they will disassociate themselves from the Churches of
Christ because  they  hold little in common with the majority of us.

As you read such materials, keep in mind that it is easy to hide behind a
computer screen and anonymously throw sarcasm at your enemy.  Not they make
no serious effort to refute with Scripture the points I make.

I do hope you will take time to look over both of my teaching sites:  <a
HREF="www.firstcenturychristian.com">www.firstcenturychristian.com</a> sets
forth the fundamentals of the faith of Christ.  <a
HREF="www.christianity-then-and-now.com">www.christianity-then-and-now.com</a>
 address the problems being caused by those who have grown weary of being
governed by the Bible alone and crave to be free to do as our denominational
neighbors do.

God be with you,

John Waddey
[/quote]



[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Brother Waddey,

Thank you for your prompt and personal reply, I salute you as those who criticize the grace centered movement within the restoration movement seldom are willing to converse directly with us, but are content to criticize from a distance.

That we are a minority remains yet to be seen, the movement back to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is growing daily. But as we learn in Romans 14 it is not ours to condemn our brethren who have arrived at different interpretations of God's word.

You are being invited to our site to discuss with respect and love those issues which seperate us. As a  site moderator, I will extend to you my personal assurances that you will be treated with respect.

Brother Waddey, if our beliefs are indeed foreign to the simple New Testament Christianity as you claim, then are you not enjoined by our Lord to explain to us the error of our ways? By your own defintion we would be the lost sheep that Jesus spoke of in His parable.

Brother John, I come to you seeking unity. Not uniformity, but unity. Unity in the faith in our Lord that we both share. There is simply too mauch worldly influence present in these days for us of the churches of Christ to foster further division by failing to openly and respectfully discuss issues.

Grace Centered Magazine is an open interactive site. The participants represent many learned men of the word from within the "Denomination" known as Church of Christ and other Stone Campbell  branches as well as a small representation of other Christian groupings. You will find a challenging environment where we both may grow in our Lord.

Brother Waddey, yes I am of the "minority". But I can promise you , I and others are more than willing to discuss scripture with you. You said you had not seen scriptural argument to refute you, my question is, "Would you like to?"

In the love of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Brojees[/quote]