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Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2012, 11:28:52 AM »
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Really? No one can illustrate it for you? Then why do you remain where no one can give you the answers you seek. If your institution were Christian should it not already know, accept and be able to explain these things that are foundational to Christianity to you? If it were Christian?

But that's the things, those doctrines you claim to be essential to Christianity are not in the Bible. You claim that the Trinity is essential, yet have not been able to illustrate that such a belief is required. If it is indeed a foundation of Christianity, don't you think Christ would have made such a claim in the Bible? And still, as I asked before, if it is so obvious, why was there the need for a council of Catholic bishops to get together and vote on who God is? And why, if you place your faith only in the Bible, do you accept as doctrine the creeds voted on by men?

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This is quickly becoming circular, and you are only digging the hole deeper that you put yourself in. Like I said before, for LDS to be Christian it would need to give up all that makes it LDS. Anything short of that simply will not do. You are working in the wrong direction by defending your heretical beliefs,  the only solution is to turn around and head in the right direction.

I apologize for my circular reasoning; wasn't aware I was doing it. Part of the problem seems to be, though, that you are imposing your own definition of what constitutes a Christian, yet even the Bible does not support your position. According to biblical definition, I am one since I accept Christ as my savior.

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2012, 11:28:52 AM »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2012, 11:35:28 AM »
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Really? No one can illustrate it for you? Then why do you remain where no one can give you the answers you seek. If your institution were Christian should it not already know, accept and be able to explain these things that are foundational to Christianity to you? If it were Christian?

But that's the things, those doctrines you claim to be essential to Christianity are not in the Bible. You claim that the Trinity is essential, yet have not been able to illustrate that such a belief is required. If it is indeed a foundation of Christianity, don't you think Christ would have made such a claim in the Bible? And still, as I asked before, if it is so obvious, why was there the need for a council of Catholic bishops to get together and vote on who God is? And why, if you place your faith only in the Bible, do you accept as doctrine the creeds voted on by men?

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This is quickly becoming circular, and you are only digging the hole deeper that you put yourself in. Like I said before, for LDS to be Christian it would need to give up all that makes it LDS. Anything short of that simply will not do. You are working in the wrong direction by defending your heretical beliefs,  the only solution is to turn around and head in the right direction.

I apologize for my circular reasoning; wasn't aware I was doing it. Part of the problem seems to be, though, that you are imposing your own definition of what constitutes a Christian, yet even the Bible does not support your position. According to biblical definition, I am one since I accept Christ as my savior.


Your continued denials of what is foundational to Christianity only support and confirm the validity of our rejection of LDS as Christian.

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2012, 11:35:28 AM »

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2012, 11:39:15 AM »
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Your continued denials of what is foundational to Christianity only support and confirm the validity of our rejection of LDS as Christian.

Yet you fail to utilize scriptural support for this opinion. If my understanding of the nature of God is wrong, if my belief in additional scriptures is wrong, show me in the Bible if those things are enough to keep me from claiming the title of Christian. If you cannot, then you are relying on definitions not found within a biblical context, using sources other than scripture.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2012, 11:48:07 AM »
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Your continued denials of what is foundational to Christianity only support and confirm the validity of our rejection of LDS as Christian.

Yet you fail to utilize scriptural support for this opinion. If my understanding of the nature of God is wrong, if my belief in additional scriptures is wrong, show me in the Bible if those things are enough to keep me from claiming the title of Christian. If you cannot, then you are relying on definitions not found within a biblical context, using sources other than scripture.

You fail to recognize that these are not debatable opinions, but factual truths revealed by the Holy Spirit, through Gods written word, to His church. His Christian Church. The same Holy Spirit confirms their truth in me. If He is not doing the same for you, then there is obviously a disconnect somewhere. Guess where it is?



"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2012, 11:48:07 AM »

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2012, 11:53:30 AM »
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You fail to recognize that these are not debatable opinions, but factual truths revealed by the Holy Spirit, through Gods written word, to His church. His Christian Church. The same Holy Spirit confirms their truth in me. If He is not doing the same for you, then there is obviously a disconnect somewhere. Guess where it is?

If they are not debatable, then why are they not in the Bible? On what basis are they non-debatable? You have never been able to show in the Bible where these beliefs are prerequisites for salvation. I have posted scriptures that blatantly contradict the notion of the Trinity, yet you will not tell me how else it is to be interpreted. These are foundational Christian truths only as you interpret it.

I in no way want to disparage someone else's spiritual experience, but you almost act as if I have claimed these things without that same spirit. It is also by the witness of the Holy Ghost that I came to know of the truthfulness of the church.

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2012, 11:53:30 AM »



Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2012, 12:01:43 PM »
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You fail to recognize that these are not debatable opinions, but factual truths revealed by the Holy Spirit, through Gods written word, to His church. His Christian Church. The same Holy Spirit confirms their truth in me. If He is not doing the same for you, then there is obviously a disconnect somewhere. Guess where it is?

If they are not debatable, then why are they not in the Bible? On what basis are they non-debatable? You have never been able to show in the Bible where these beliefs are prerequisites for salvation. I have posted scriptures that blatantly contradict the notion of the Trinity, yet you will not tell me how else it is to be interpreted. These are foundational Christian truths only as you interpret it.

I in no way want to disparage someone else's spiritual experience, but you almost act as if I have claimed these things without that same spirit. It is also by the witness of the Holy Ghost that I came to know of the truthfulness of the church.

You have quoted scriptures that prove only that you do not understand the meaning of the scriptures you quote. Is God divided? Does He reveal one truth to one individual and an opposite view to another? If my views disagreed with the revealed truth of God given to His church, I should think it would give me pause to question my views, instead of demanding the Christian church change to meet my own views.



"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2012, 12:09:01 PM »
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You have quoted scriptures that prove only that you do not understand the meaning of the scriptures you quote. Is God divided? Does He reveal one truth to one individual and an opposite view to another? If my views disagreed with the revealed truth of God given to His church, I should think it would give me pause to question my views, instead of demanding the Christian church change to meet my own views.

How am I misinterpreting it? You claim that the Father and the Son are one "Being" One God. Yet the scripture I posted has Christ himself claiming that the Father is His God. How can the father and the son both be the one true God, if the father is the son's God? How can this be twisted to fit a trinitarian viewpoint?

If my views disagreed with revealed truth, I'd certainly take pause. Trouble is, I don't believe mine do. I've read through the Bible numerous times with the same conclusion. The Trinity doctrine to me sounds like it was invented to explain how both the father and the son are divine if there is only one God. The apostles of the New Testament never seemed to have reached the conclusion adhered to by Trinitarians. When Christ asked Peter who it was he believed him to be, he answered,

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matt. 16:16) And for this answer, Jesus praised Peter. My answer is the same as Peter's; I testify that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Peter did not say that Jesus is God, or that he is of one substance with God, or that part of God came down to earth while another part stayed in heaven. He testified that Jesus is the Son of God. This is where my faith is placed, and in this, I am perfectly in harmony with what the scriptures say.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2012, 12:14:15 PM »
If my views disagreed with revealed truth, I'd certainly take pause. Trouble is, I don't believe mine do.

If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2012, 12:18:59 PM »
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If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.

As I've already stated, my beliefs are not in conflict with Christianity. Does not the Bible claim Christ to be the Son of God? It does, as do I. One cannot come to a Trinitarian doctrine by reading the Bible alone. Only by accepting the creeds voted on by men has this doctrine come forth.

If you truly feel I am erring in my interpretation of the above scripture, I would like to know how else I am to look at it. How else can the father be the god of his son while the son is the same god as the father?

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2012, 12:21:10 PM »
Phil asked,  "Do you believe it to be the only word, the final word of God to us? Could you find the way to your personal salvation in the Bible alone?"

Gunslinger replied, "I would have to disagree with this assessment. Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"

Phil replies, "Lets tackle this question first. "You asked, "Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"  Now that is a good question, so I would reply, "Why not?" 

If we were to go out into the religious world and ask every/any leader of every/any denomination,  "Is your Catechism; is your, Book of Mormon; is your Watchtower; is your Koran; is your book on Scientology; is your expositor; is your books on New Age; etc., God inspired? I am sure everyone of them would say yes. Of course there going to say yes.  And to each of these, I would ask them what I had asked you earlier.

How can anyone justify their claims of adding these new teachings when Scripture states, Rev.22:18-19, we are not to add, or subtract from this book, meaning the Bible. If anyone does add, or take away, they will suffer the curses of God. How does anyone get around these verses.

Is God the author of confusion? Does he say one thing and mean another?

When we read the superscript, and the first verse of Revelation, we see, 

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (the Father) gave him." These words clarify with the article "The," that this is it, there will be no other revelation coming from the Father concerning His Son, to anyone. And it closes with the instruction of not to add, or take away.

What distinguishes the N.T. gospel from others books, or documents? Each of these N.T. letters, was written by men, including Paul who were eye witnesses to Jesus Christ having been raised from the dead. This distinguishes true apostiles from those apostiles, who falsely claim to be apostiles. 

John's Revelation came from the Father, to His Son, to John. This supports, Heb.1:1, "God (the Father) at sundry (various) times and in divers (many way) spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son (Jesus,) when He (the Father) hath appointed heir of all things."

These self appointed apostiles, and prophets are false, each having, and teaching another gospel.

As far as the 4th century goes, there were individual letters circulating, as well as oral communications, by the apostles themselves, and those who knew them. The apostles wrote to the Jews, Paul wrote to the churches in Corinth, Philippi, Ephesis, Rome. And I would suppose copies were made, and sent to the many churches over the centuries.

They had to be, this is why we have them today. Gathering them all together later, has no bearing whatsoever that they were/had not been circulated in the Christian community of that day. Also, most Christian's were being hunted down by the authorities. Many dispersed to other countries, and therefore spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.

Phil LaSpino

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2012, 12:36:02 PM »
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Phil asked,  "Do you believe it to be the only word, the final word of God to us? Could you find the way to your personal salvation in the Bible alone?"

Gunslinger replied, "I would have to disagree with this assessment. Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"

Phil replies, "Lets tackle this question first. "You asked, "Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"  Now that is a good question, so I would reply, "Why not?"

If we were to go out into the religious world and ask every/any leader of every/any denomination,  "Is your Catechism; is your, Book of Mormon; is your Watchtower; is your Koran; is your book on Scientology; is your expositor; is your books on New Age; etc., God inspired? I am sure everyone of them would say yes. Of course there going to say yes.  And to each of these, I would ask them what I had asked you earlier.

Fair assessment. I'm sure most feel that their works are God-inspired.

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How can anyone justify their claims of adding these new teachings when Scripture states, Rev.22:18-19, we are not to add, or subtract from this book, meaning the Bible. If anyone does add, or take away, they will suffer the curses of God. How does anyone get around these verses.

I've already explained what that scripture means in Revelation. It is in direct reference to that book of prophecy. It could not have meant the entire Bible because it had not yet been compiled. As I've said before, Deuteronomy also warns against adding to God's word. Are we to reject all the rest of the Bible?

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Is God the author of confusion? Does he say one thing and mean another?

Clearly no.

When we read the superscript, and the first verse of Revelation, we see,

Quote
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (the Father) gave him." These words clarify with the article "The," that this is it, there will be no other revelation coming from the Father concerning His Son, to anyone. And it closes with the instruction of not to add, or take away.

I don't see how the use of the word 'the' means there will be no more. If taken literally, one would have to accept that Revelation is not only the last but the only revelation of Jesus Christ. Besides which, doesn't the book of Revelation specifically mention two prophets coming in the last days?

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What distinguishes the N.T. gospel from others books, or documents? Each of these N.T. letters, was written by men, including Paul who were eye witnesses to Jesus Christ having been raised from the dead. This distinguishes true apostiles from those apostiles, who falsely claim to be apostiles.

The apostles of the church are likewise special witnesses to Christ. Keep in mind Paul did not actually serve with Christ during his ministry. He saw Christ in a vision. His experience can be likened to Joseph Smith's, then, in that they became apostles--or special witnesses--by beholding the resurrected Christ.
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John's Revelation came from the Father, to His Son, to John. This supports, Heb.1:1, "God (the Father) at sundry (various) times and in divers (many way) spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son (Jesus,) when He (the Father) hath appointed heir of all things."

Someone else already pointed this verse out, but nowhere does it say that there are going to be no more prophets. It just said that things are revealed through Jesus Christ. If you read the D&C, you will notice that the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith came through Christ.

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These self appointed apostiles, and prophets are false, each having, and teaching another gospel.

If they are indeed self-appointed, they are false. I obviously do not believe this to be the case regarding our General Authorities.


Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2012, 12:42:53 PM »
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If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.

As I've already stated, my beliefs are not in conflict with Christianity. Does not the Bible claim Christ to be the Son of God? It does, as do I. One cannot come to a Trinitarian doctrine by reading the Bible alone. Only by accepting the creeds voted on by men has this doctrine come forth.

If you truly feel I am erring in my interpretation of the above scripture, I would like to know how else I am to look at it. How else can the father be the god of his son while the son is the same god as the father?

Excuse me? Your beliefs do not conflict with Christianity? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that? I think that is what we refer to as "magical thinking".

Round and round we go, where we stop....

Once again, God is comprised of three distinct but indivisable Persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This is the Christian belief. The second Person of the Trinity is God the Son.

Once again, Jesus Christ is God the Son, who became fully man, but never ceased to be fully God. That is what Christians call the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, the Godman. This is where your mind goes off the deep end, and shuts down, ignoring this reality. A reality that is another foundational truth of Christianity, and that is also the answer to the question you keep coming back to.



"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2012, 12:54:58 PM »
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Excuse me? Your beliefs do not conflict with Christianity? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that? I think that is what we refer to as "magical thinking".

Of course I do not believe my beliefs conflict with Christianity. If I thought they did, I would not be LDS.

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Round and round we go, where we stop....

Once again, God is comprised of three distinct but indivisable Persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This is the Christian belief. The second Person of the Trinity is God the Son.

I also believe they are distinct persons. The rest of what you say, in my opinion, contradicts what the Bible says about Christ.

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Once again, Jesus Christ is God the Son, who became fully man, but never ceased to be fully God. That is what Christians call the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, the Godman. This is where your mind goes off the deep end, and shuts down, ignoring this reality. A reality that is another foundational truth of Christianity, and that is also the answer to the question you keep coming back to.

Again, if all three comprise one God, how can the Father be the God of the Son? This clearly states that the Father is God, and that Christ is his Son. This is what I believe. This is what's written in the Bible. I do not subscribe to what Man says God is in the voted on creeds.

And also, it is your belief that the father and son are co-equal, correct? If this is so, why then would Christ say that the Father is greater than he is? How can one be greater than the other if they are both equal?

The Trinity just does not hold up to biblical scrutiny in my opinion.

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2012, 12:58:49 PM »
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If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.

As I've already stated, my beliefs are not in conflict with Christianity. Does not the Bible claim Christ to be the Son of God? It does, as do I. One cannot come to a Trinitarian doctrine by reading the Bible alone. Only by accepting the creeds voted on by men has this doctrine come forth.

If you truly feel I am erring in my interpretation of the above scripture, I would like to know how else I am to look at it. How else can the father be the god of his son while the son is the same god as the father?

Excuse me? Your beliefs do not conflict with Christianity? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that? I think that is what we refer to as "magical thinking".

Round and round we go, where we stop....

Once again, God is comprised of three distinct but indivisable Persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This is the Christian belief. The second Person of the Trinity is God the Son.

Once again, Jesus Christ is God the Son, who became fully man, but never ceased to be fully God. That is what Christians call the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, the Godman. This is where your mind goes off the deep end, and shuts down, ignoring this reality. A reality that is another foundational truth of Christianity, and that is also the answer to the question you keep coming back to.

Exactly...the Jesus the LDS confess faith in is NOT the Jesus of the Bible...no matter how they hard they try to explain it!  

I say...why do they even want to be considered Christian.......just call them selves Mormons ::smile::

I don't believe one word of the Book of Mormon...not any writings from them; I want my clear distance from them...and I am Christian!
I am what I am because of God's grace....

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2012, 01:08:57 PM »
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Exactly...the Jesus the LDS confess faith in is NOT the Jesus of the Bible...no matter how they hard they try to explain it! 

I would dispute this. Who does the Bible say Christ is? Again look at the testimony given by Peter...He is the Son of God, the Savior. Mormons believe this, therefore there is no conflict with LDS teachings and Biblical teachings.

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I say...why do they even want to be considered Christian.......just call them selves Mormons Smile

I don't really care that much if others say I am not Christian...I know I am and God knows I am, that is what's really important. What annoys me is their reasoning for rejecting us as Christian. They use a non-biblical test to determine such, relying on the creeds of men, the logic of men. I've challenged others to post scriptures that claim that the Bible is the Only Word of God, and to show me where not believing in the Trinity will bar me from entry into heaven. No one has been able to yet.

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I don't believe one word of the Book of Mormon...not any writings from them; I want my clear distance from them...and I am Christian!

This is clearly your choice. I do believe in the Book of Mormon and the General Authorities of the church, and I too am a Christian!