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Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 11:58:34 »
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You wrote, "I believe the Bible to be the word of God."

On this we agree. Question, "Do you believe it to be the only word, the final word of God to us? Could you find the way to your personal salvation in the Bible alone?"

I would have to disagree with this assessment. Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit? It certainly hasn't always been that way. What would you have said to Christians living prior to the fourth century, when the New Testament had not yet been compiled? Since the Bible itself makes no mention that it is all there is of God's word, the only way someone can reach such a conclusion is through extrabiblical means.

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In my previous post, what I meant is, what is your hope after you leave this life?

Let me expand on the question. What have you garnished, what Biblical understanding do you have concerning your eternity? Heaven, hell, judgments, rewards, etc.

My hope is the resurrection of the body made perfect, united as a whole man, body, soul, and spirit; to be with the Lord for eternity, in a place He has prepared for all those who love Him.

I don't think my hopes are that dissimilar. I hope to be resurrected, body and soul, and live eternally with the Father and Son. But I would add also that I hope to be sealed for eternity to my family.

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Only through Him can I achieve this, there is no other way, no church, no individual, and surely not by my own works, only through Him, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit can any man finish the race of life, and receive the reward of eternal salvation.

I am mostly in agreement with you. Christ is the only way to salvation; I alone can do nothing to save myself. I would disagree about not needing a church, though. I believe that certain ordinances must be performed for salvation-baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. These things can only be done by the authority of the Holy Priesthood and I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only organization that has this authority. The Bible even says that one cannot take this power upon himself, he must be called of God as was Aaron.

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Our love for Him now, today and our faith in Him drive me to spread His gospel of truth, it being a light unto all men, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can all grow daily in faith, love, and spirit.

This is commendable. I feel exactly the same.


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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 11:58:34 »

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #71 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:01:39 »
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You are not the typical morman; most deny all of what I stated...and believe that they must work their way to heaven...

If any Mormon says that they believe their works alone will get them into heaven, they are not representative of true LDS doctrine. Surely, we believe works are part of the equation. In James we hear that faith without works is dead. So we believe by acting righteously, our faith is made complete. Bear in mind, though, we believe that had Christ not died on the  cross for our sins, we would be entirely without hope. So it is indeed Jesus Christ whom we rely on for salvation. We just believe works are needed to exemplify our faith. How can one have faith in Christ or actually love him if he keeps not the commandments he has given?

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #71 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:01:39 »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #72 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:20:44 »
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The placing of the book of Mormon on the same level as The Bible is as grievously heretical as any error in your teaching that you could possibly have hoped to add to the conversation. You prove our point well.

I keep hearing such sentiments, yet no one can illustrate how. Why is it heretical? Again, where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is all there is?

Really? No one can illustrate it for you? Then why do you remain where no one can give you the answers you seek. If your institution were Christian should it not already know, accept and be able to explain these things that are foundational to Christianity to you? If it were Christian?

This is quickly becoming circular, and you are only digging the hole deeper that you put yourself in. Like I said before, for LDS to be Christian it would need to give up all that makes it LDS. Anything short of that simply will not do. You are working in the wrong direction by defending your heretical beliefs,  the only solution is to turn around and head in the right direction.




Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #73 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:21:07 »
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You are not the typical morman; most deny all of what I stated...and believe that they must work their way to heaven...

If any Mormon says that they believe their works alone will get them into heaven, they are not representative of true LDS doctrine. Surely, we believe works are part of the equation. In James we hear that faith without works is dead. So we believe by acting righteously, our faith is made complete. Bear in mind, though, we believe that had Christ not died on the  cross for our sins, we would be entirely without hope. So it is indeed Jesus Christ whom we rely on for salvation. We just believe works are needed to exemplify our faith. How can one have faith in Christ or actually love him if he keeps not the commandments he has given?

Ok...so now you admit works are part of the equation ::frown::

No...Christians believe the gift of salvation is free; and Jesus finished the work on the cross...we recieve Him by faith given to us by His Spirit...and now He works through us for His purpose, which is to love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbor as ourself.

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #73 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:21:07 »

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #74 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:24:46 »
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No...Christians believe the gift of salvation is free; and Jesus finished the work on the cross...we recieve Him by faith given to us by His Spirit...and now He works through us for His purpose, which is to love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbor as ourself.

In your opinion, what does "faith without works is dead" mean? What does it mean when Christ said those who love him keep his commandments? Are you insinuating you can get to heaven if you don't love Christ? I'm sure that's not what you mean, but I don't know how else to interpret your negative attitude about good works.

Also, Revelation specifically says we will be judged according to our works. What does that mean?

One final point also, in your opinion, do you believe you will be kept out of heaven because you did good works? If not, why does it matter?

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #74 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:24:46 »



Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #75 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:28:52 »
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Really? No one can illustrate it for you? Then why do you remain where no one can give you the answers you seek. If your institution were Christian should it not already know, accept and be able to explain these things that are foundational to Christianity to you? If it were Christian?

But that's the things, those doctrines you claim to be essential to Christianity are not in the Bible. You claim that the Trinity is essential, yet have not been able to illustrate that such a belief is required. If it is indeed a foundation of Christianity, don't you think Christ would have made such a claim in the Bible? And still, as I asked before, if it is so obvious, why was there the need for a council of Catholic bishops to get together and vote on who God is? And why, if you place your faith only in the Bible, do you accept as doctrine the creeds voted on by men?

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This is quickly becoming circular, and you are only digging the hole deeper that you put yourself in. Like I said before, for LDS to be Christian it would need to give up all that makes it LDS. Anything short of that simply will not do. You are working in the wrong direction by defending your heretical beliefs,  the only solution is to turn around and head in the right direction.

I apologize for my circular reasoning; wasn't aware I was doing it. Part of the problem seems to be, though, that you are imposing your own definition of what constitutes a Christian, yet even the Bible does not support your position. According to biblical definition, I am one since I accept Christ as my savior.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #76 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:35:28 »
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Really? No one can illustrate it for you? Then why do you remain where no one can give you the answers you seek. If your institution were Christian should it not already know, accept and be able to explain these things that are foundational to Christianity to you? If it were Christian?

But that's the things, those doctrines you claim to be essential to Christianity are not in the Bible. You claim that the Trinity is essential, yet have not been able to illustrate that such a belief is required. If it is indeed a foundation of Christianity, don't you think Christ would have made such a claim in the Bible? And still, as I asked before, if it is so obvious, why was there the need for a council of Catholic bishops to get together and vote on who God is? And why, if you place your faith only in the Bible, do you accept as doctrine the creeds voted on by men?

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This is quickly becoming circular, and you are only digging the hole deeper that you put yourself in. Like I said before, for LDS to be Christian it would need to give up all that makes it LDS. Anything short of that simply will not do. You are working in the wrong direction by defending your heretical beliefs,  the only solution is to turn around and head in the right direction.

I apologize for my circular reasoning; wasn't aware I was doing it. Part of the problem seems to be, though, that you are imposing your own definition of what constitutes a Christian, yet even the Bible does not support your position. According to biblical definition, I am one since I accept Christ as my savior.


Your continued denials of what is foundational to Christianity only support and confirm the validity of our rejection of LDS as Christian.


Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #77 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:39:15 »
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Your continued denials of what is foundational to Christianity only support and confirm the validity of our rejection of LDS as Christian.

Yet you fail to utilize scriptural support for this opinion. If my understanding of the nature of God is wrong, if my belief in additional scriptures is wrong, show me in the Bible if those things are enough to keep me from claiming the title of Christian. If you cannot, then you are relying on definitions not found within a biblical context, using sources other than scripture.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #78 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:48:07 »
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Your continued denials of what is foundational to Christianity only support and confirm the validity of our rejection of LDS as Christian.

Yet you fail to utilize scriptural support for this opinion. If my understanding of the nature of God is wrong, if my belief in additional scriptures is wrong, show me in the Bible if those things are enough to keep me from claiming the title of Christian. If you cannot, then you are relying on definitions not found within a biblical context, using sources other than scripture.

You fail to recognize that these are not debatable opinions, but factual truths revealed by the Holy Spirit, through Gods written word, to His church. His Christian Church. The same Holy Spirit confirms their truth in me. If He is not doing the same for you, then there is obviously a disconnect somewhere. Guess where it is?




Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #79 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 12:53:30 »
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You fail to recognize that these are not debatable opinions, but factual truths revealed by the Holy Spirit, through Gods written word, to His church. His Christian Church. The same Holy Spirit confirms their truth in me. If He is not doing the same for you, then there is obviously a disconnect somewhere. Guess where it is?

If they are not debatable, then why are they not in the Bible? On what basis are they non-debatable? You have never been able to show in the Bible where these beliefs are prerequisites for salvation. I have posted scriptures that blatantly contradict the notion of the Trinity, yet you will not tell me how else it is to be interpreted. These are foundational Christian truths only as you interpret it.

I in no way want to disparage someone else's spiritual experience, but you almost act as if I have claimed these things without that same spirit. It is also by the witness of the Holy Ghost that I came to know of the truthfulness of the church.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #80 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:01:43 »
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You fail to recognize that these are not debatable opinions, but factual truths revealed by the Holy Spirit, through Gods written word, to His church. His Christian Church. The same Holy Spirit confirms their truth in me. If He is not doing the same for you, then there is obviously a disconnect somewhere. Guess where it is?

If they are not debatable, then why are they not in the Bible? On what basis are they non-debatable? You have never been able to show in the Bible where these beliefs are prerequisites for salvation. I have posted scriptures that blatantly contradict the notion of the Trinity, yet you will not tell me how else it is to be interpreted. These are foundational Christian truths only as you interpret it.

I in no way want to disparage someone else's spiritual experience, but you almost act as if I have claimed these things without that same spirit. It is also by the witness of the Holy Ghost that I came to know of the truthfulness of the church.

You have quoted scriptures that prove only that you do not understand the meaning of the scriptures you quote. Is God divided? Does He reveal one truth to one individual and an opposite view to another? If my views disagreed with the revealed truth of God given to His church, I should think it would give me pause to question my views, instead of demanding the Christian church change to meet my own views.




Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #81 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:09:01 »
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You have quoted scriptures that prove only that you do not understand the meaning of the scriptures you quote. Is God divided? Does He reveal one truth to one individual and an opposite view to another? If my views disagreed with the revealed truth of God given to His church, I should think it would give me pause to question my views, instead of demanding the Christian church change to meet my own views.

How am I misinterpreting it? You claim that the Father and the Son are one "Being" One God. Yet the scripture I posted has Christ himself claiming that the Father is His God. How can the father and the son both be the one true God, if the father is the son's God? How can this be twisted to fit a trinitarian viewpoint?

If my views disagreed with revealed truth, I'd certainly take pause. Trouble is, I don't believe mine do. I've read through the Bible numerous times with the same conclusion. The Trinity doctrine to me sounds like it was invented to explain how both the father and the son are divine if there is only one God. The apostles of the New Testament never seemed to have reached the conclusion adhered to by Trinitarians. When Christ asked Peter who it was he believed him to be, he answered,

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matt. 16:16) And for this answer, Jesus praised Peter. My answer is the same as Peter's; I testify that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Peter did not say that Jesus is God, or that he is of one substance with God, or that part of God came down to earth while another part stayed in heaven. He testified that Jesus is the Son of God. This is where my faith is placed, and in this, I am perfectly in harmony with what the scriptures say.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #82 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:14:15 »
If my views disagreed with revealed truth, I'd certainly take pause. Trouble is, I don't believe mine do.

If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.


Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #83 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:18:59 »
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If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.

As I've already stated, my beliefs are not in conflict with Christianity. Does not the Bible claim Christ to be the Son of God? It does, as do I. One cannot come to a Trinitarian doctrine by reading the Bible alone. Only by accepting the creeds voted on by men has this doctrine come forth.

If you truly feel I am erring in my interpretation of the above scripture, I would like to know how else I am to look at it. How else can the father be the god of his son while the son is the same god as the father?

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #84 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:21:10 »
Phil asked,  "Do you believe it to be the only word, the final word of God to us? Could you find the way to your personal salvation in the Bible alone?"

Gunslinger replied, "I would have to disagree with this assessment. Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"

Phil replies, "Lets tackle this question first. "You asked, "Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"  Now that is a good question, so I would reply, "Why not?" 

If we were to go out into the religious world and ask every/any leader of every/any denomination,  "Is your Catechism; is your, Book of Mormon; is your Watchtower; is your Koran; is your book on Scientology; is your expositor; is your books on New Age; etc., God inspired? I am sure everyone of them would say yes. Of course there going to say yes.  And to each of these, I would ask them what I had asked you earlier.

How can anyone justify their claims of adding these new teachings when Scripture states, Rev.22:18-19, we are not to add, or subtract from this book, meaning the Bible. If anyone does add, or take away, they will suffer the curses of God. How does anyone get around these verses.

Is God the author of confusion? Does he say one thing and mean another?

When we read the superscript, and the first verse of Revelation, we see, 

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (the Father) gave him." These words clarify with the article "The," that this is it, there will be no other revelation coming from the Father concerning His Son, to anyone. And it closes with the instruction of not to add, or take away.

What distinguishes the N.T. gospel from others books, or documents? Each of these N.T. letters, was written by men, including Paul who were eye witnesses to Jesus Christ having been raised from the dead. This distinguishes true apostiles from those apostiles, who falsely claim to be apostiles. 

John's Revelation came from the Father, to His Son, to John. This supports, Heb.1:1, "God (the Father) at sundry (various) times and in divers (many way) spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son (Jesus,) when He (the Father) hath appointed heir of all things."

These self appointed apostiles, and prophets are false, each having, and teaching another gospel.

As far as the 4th century goes, there were individual letters circulating, as well as oral communications, by the apostles themselves, and those who knew them. The apostles wrote to the Jews, Paul wrote to the churches in Corinth, Philippi, Ephesis, Rome. And I would suppose copies were made, and sent to the many churches over the centuries.

They had to be, this is why we have them today. Gathering them all together later, has no bearing whatsoever that they were/had not been circulated in the Christian community of that day. Also, most Christian's were being hunted down by the authorities. Many dispersed to other countries, and therefore spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.

Phil LaSpino

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #85 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:36:02 »
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Phil asked,  "Do you believe it to be the only word, the final word of God to us? Could you find the way to your personal salvation in the Bible alone?"

Gunslinger replied, "I would have to disagree with this assessment. Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"

Phil replies, "Lets tackle this question first. "You asked, "Why does the Bible have to be the only set of scriptures for our benefit?"  Now that is a good question, so I would reply, "Why not?"

If we were to go out into the religious world and ask every/any leader of every/any denomination,  "Is your Catechism; is your, Book of Mormon; is your Watchtower; is your Koran; is your book on Scientology; is your expositor; is your books on New Age; etc., God inspired? I am sure everyone of them would say yes. Of course there going to say yes.  And to each of these, I would ask them what I had asked you earlier.

Fair assessment. I'm sure most feel that their works are God-inspired.

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How can anyone justify their claims of adding these new teachings when Scripture states, Rev.22:18-19, we are not to add, or subtract from this book, meaning the Bible. If anyone does add, or take away, they will suffer the curses of God. How does anyone get around these verses.

I've already explained what that scripture means in Revelation. It is in direct reference to that book of prophecy. It could not have meant the entire Bible because it had not yet been compiled. As I've said before, Deuteronomy also warns against adding to God's word. Are we to reject all the rest of the Bible?

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Is God the author of confusion? Does he say one thing and mean another?

Clearly no.

When we read the superscript, and the first verse of Revelation, we see,

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"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (the Father) gave him." These words clarify with the article "The," that this is it, there will be no other revelation coming from the Father concerning His Son, to anyone. And it closes with the instruction of not to add, or take away.

I don't see how the use of the word 'the' means there will be no more. If taken literally, one would have to accept that Revelation is not only the last but the only revelation of Jesus Christ. Besides which, doesn't the book of Revelation specifically mention two prophets coming in the last days?

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What distinguishes the N.T. gospel from others books, or documents? Each of these N.T. letters, was written by men, including Paul who were eye witnesses to Jesus Christ having been raised from the dead. This distinguishes true apostiles from those apostiles, who falsely claim to be apostiles.

The apostles of the church are likewise special witnesses to Christ. Keep in mind Paul did not actually serve with Christ during his ministry. He saw Christ in a vision. His experience can be likened to Joseph Smith's, then, in that they became apostles--or special witnesses--by beholding the resurrected Christ.
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John's Revelation came from the Father, to His Son, to John. This supports, Heb.1:1, "God (the Father) at sundry (various) times and in divers (many way) spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son (Jesus,) when He (the Father) hath appointed heir of all things."

Someone else already pointed this verse out, but nowhere does it say that there are going to be no more prophets. It just said that things are revealed through Jesus Christ. If you read the D&C, you will notice that the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith came through Christ.

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These self appointed apostiles, and prophets are false, each having, and teaching another gospel.

If they are indeed self-appointed, they are false. I obviously do not believe this to be the case regarding our General Authorities.


Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #86 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:42:53 »
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If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.

As I've already stated, my beliefs are not in conflict with Christianity. Does not the Bible claim Christ to be the Son of God? It does, as do I. One cannot come to a Trinitarian doctrine by reading the Bible alone. Only by accepting the creeds voted on by men has this doctrine come forth.

If you truly feel I am erring in my interpretation of the above scripture, I would like to know how else I am to look at it. How else can the father be the god of his son while the son is the same god as the father?

Excuse me? Your beliefs do not conflict with Christianity? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that? I think that is what we refer to as "magical thinking".

Round and round we go, where we stop....

Once again, God is comprised of three distinct but indivisable Persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This is the Christian belief. The second Person of the Trinity is God the Son.

Once again, Jesus Christ is God the Son, who became fully man, but never ceased to be fully God. That is what Christians call the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, the Godman. This is where your mind goes off the deep end, and shuts down, ignoring this reality. A reality that is another foundational truth of Christianity, and that is also the answer to the question you keep coming back to.




Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #87 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:54:58 »
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Excuse me? Your beliefs do not conflict with Christianity? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that? I think that is what we refer to as "magical thinking".

Of course I do not believe my beliefs conflict with Christianity. If I thought they did, I would not be LDS.

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Round and round we go, where we stop....

Once again, God is comprised of three distinct but indivisable Persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This is the Christian belief. The second Person of the Trinity is God the Son.

I also believe they are distinct persons. The rest of what you say, in my opinion, contradicts what the Bible says about Christ.

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Once again, Jesus Christ is God the Son, who became fully man, but never ceased to be fully God. That is what Christians call the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, the Godman. This is where your mind goes off the deep end, and shuts down, ignoring this reality. A reality that is another foundational truth of Christianity, and that is also the answer to the question you keep coming back to.

Again, if all three comprise one God, how can the Father be the God of the Son? This clearly states that the Father is God, and that Christ is his Son. This is what I believe. This is what's written in the Bible. I do not subscribe to what Man says God is in the voted on creeds.

And also, it is your belief that the father and son are co-equal, correct? If this is so, why then would Christ say that the Father is greater than he is? How can one be greater than the other if they are both equal?

The Trinity just does not hold up to biblical scrutiny in my opinion.

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #88 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 13:58:49 »
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If your beliefs disagree with the foundational truths of Christanity, it is your beliefs that need to change, not Christianity.

As I've already stated, my beliefs are not in conflict with Christianity. Does not the Bible claim Christ to be the Son of God? It does, as do I. One cannot come to a Trinitarian doctrine by reading the Bible alone. Only by accepting the creeds voted on by men has this doctrine come forth.

If you truly feel I am erring in my interpretation of the above scripture, I would like to know how else I am to look at it. How else can the father be the god of his son while the son is the same god as the father?

Excuse me? Your beliefs do not conflict with Christianity? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that? I think that is what we refer to as "magical thinking".

Round and round we go, where we stop....

Once again, God is comprised of three distinct but indivisable Persons; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This is the Christian belief. The second Person of the Trinity is God the Son.

Once again, Jesus Christ is God the Son, who became fully man, but never ceased to be fully God. That is what Christians call the hypostatic union. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, the Godman. This is where your mind goes off the deep end, and shuts down, ignoring this reality. A reality that is another foundational truth of Christianity, and that is also the answer to the question you keep coming back to.

Exactly...the Jesus the LDS confess faith in is NOT the Jesus of the Bible...no matter how they hard they try to explain it!  

I say...why do they even want to be considered Christian.......just call them selves Mormons ::smile::

I don't believe one word of the Book of Mormon...not any writings from them; I want my clear distance from them...and I am Christian!

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #89 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 14:08:57 »
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Exactly...the Jesus the LDS confess faith in is NOT the Jesus of the Bible...no matter how they hard they try to explain it! 

I would dispute this. Who does the Bible say Christ is? Again look at the testimony given by Peter...He is the Son of God, the Savior. Mormons believe this, therefore there is no conflict with LDS teachings and Biblical teachings.

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I say...why do they even want to be considered Christian.......just call them selves Mormons Smile

I don't really care that much if others say I am not Christian...I know I am and God knows I am, that is what's really important. What annoys me is their reasoning for rejecting us as Christian. They use a non-biblical test to determine such, relying on the creeds of men, the logic of men. I've challenged others to post scriptures that claim that the Bible is the Only Word of God, and to show me where not believing in the Trinity will bar me from entry into heaven. No one has been able to yet.

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I don't believe one word of the Book of Mormon...not any writings from them; I want my clear distance from them...and I am Christian!

This is clearly your choice. I do believe in the Book of Mormon and the General Authorities of the church, and I too am a Christian!

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #90 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 14:11:22 »
And also, it is your belief that the father and son are co-equal, correct? If this is so, why then would Christ say that the Father is greater than he is? How can one be greater than the other if they are both equal?

Indeed He humbled Himself, and became as a servant. God the Son humbling Himself to function as a man, in order to redeem mankind. What a God we have! Thank you Jesus!



Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #91 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 14:14:26 »
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Indeed He humbled Himself, and became as a servant. God the Son humbling Himself to function as a man, in order to redeem mankind. What a God we have! Thank you Jesus!

This...doesn't make any sense.

According to your view, both the father and the son are both God, are both co-eternal, co-equal, one being. But God the Son, who is also the same God as God the Father, came down in human form, humbled himself so the man that is still fully God, still co-eternal, is now somehow less than the part of God that is still in heaven--God the Father?

Then they can't be co-eternal if one is less than the other.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #92 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 14:21:12 »
I will reply to two of your comments.

gunslinger wrote, "I don't see how the use of the word 'the' means there will be no more. If taken literally, one would have to accept that Revelation is not only the last but the only revelation of Jesus Christ. Besides which, doesn't the book of Revelation specifically mention two prophets coming in the last days?

Phil replies, "The definitive article is of the utmost importance. It points to one very specific person, or thing. The indefinite article, "An, or a, makes reference to one of many. You need to study this, it may be one of the single most important things you ever examined. I have studied it fully, it does make a very big difference.

You wrote, "The apostles of the church are likewise special witnesses to Christ. Keep in mind Paul did not actually serve with Christ during his ministry. He saw Christ in a vision. His experience can be likened to Joseph Smith's, then, in that they became apostles--or special witnesses--by beholding the resurrected Christ."

Phil replies, "I am amazed how much you have to rely on the book of Mormon. Tell me, What person who has fathered a new religion has not claimed to have had some kind of vision of Jesus Christ, or Mary, or an angel, or whatever?

Is Joseph Smith to be His own witness? We do now know if Paul was not at the cross when Jesus was crucified? Crucifications were for a public display, having large crowds present. There is no evidence in the Bible that Paul did not witness His death, is there?

The big difference between Paul, and Joseph Smith is, Paul lived in those very days. How does Joseph Smith know what Jesus looked like? It could have been a fallen angle claiming to be Jesus, I don't know, and neither does anyone else. What I am sure of, Scriptures teach that there would be no further Revelation.

How can anyone be drawn in by claims no-one can prove, or disprove?  All of Scriptures have a witness, or witnesses.

But to claim that Paul did not see Jesus die, would be a private interpretation, or opinion of Scriptures.  An opinion (note indefinite article, "an," one of many opinions)  based on no evidence, conjecture.

I can see one great, and maybe an insurmountable problem. Your knowledge of the Mormon faith, any you have apparently never studying the Bible without some form of input, great, or small coming from their literature.

Phil LaSpino

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #93 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 14:23:58 »
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Indeed He humbled Himself, and became as a servant. God the Son humbling Himself to function as a man, in order to redeem mankind. What a God we have! Thank you Jesus!

This...doesn't make any sense.

According to your view, both the father and the son are both God, are both co-eternal, co-equal, one being. But God the Son, who is also the same God as God the Father, came down in human form, humbled himself so the man that is still fully God, still co-eternal, is now somehow less than the part of God that is still in heaven--God the Father?

Then they can't be co-eternal if one is less than the other.

There you go again, parts? There are no parts. God is One. No parts, no separation.

In the Christian view it is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who together are the One Eternal God.

Jesus was never less than God at any time during the 33 years of His earthly life.



Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #94 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 14:40:12 »
I will reply to two of your comments.
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gunslinger wrote, "I don't see how the use of the word 'the' means there will be no more. If taken literally, one would have to accept that Revelation is not only the last but the only revelation of Jesus Christ. Besides which, doesn't the book of Revelation specifically mention two prophets coming in the last days?

Phil replies, "The definitive article is of the utmost importance. It points to one very specific person, or thing. The indefinite article, "An, or a, makes reference to one of many. You need to study this, it may be one of the single most important things you ever examined. I have studied it fully, it does make a very big difference.

But, if it truly was "THE" revelation, wouldn't it be such at the exclusion of any other revelation contained within the Bible? If there are others, it cannot be "the" revelation, meaning the only one.
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You wrote, "The apostles of the church are likewise special witnesses to Christ. Keep in mind Paul did not actually serve with Christ during his ministry. He saw Christ in a vision. His experience can be likened to Joseph Smith's, then, in that they became apostles--or special witnesses--by beholding the resurrected Christ."

Phil replies, "I am amazed how much you have to rely on the book of Mormon. Tell me, What person who has fathered a new religion has not claimed to have had some kind of vision of Jesus Christ, or Mary, or an angel, or whatever?

Why wouldn't I rely on the Book of Mormon? I consider it scripture. That would be like me saying you rely too much on the New Testament. Of course you do; it's considered God's word.

As for the veracity of Smith's claims, I'll answer that a little further down. Suffice to say, we do not rely solely on his accounts. There were witnesses that also saw what he saw. That is the major difference between his claims and others. It's one thing to claim to have seen an angel. It's wholly another to then introduce that angel to three other people.

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Is Joseph Smith to be His own witness? We do now know if Paul was not at the cross when Jesus was crucified? Crucifications were for a public display, having large crowds present. There is no evidence in the Bible that Paul did not witness His death, is there?

There is no evidence Paul was there one way or the other, I suppose. But does that matter? If Paul was not at the crucifixion, does that alter his status one way or the other?

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The big difference between Paul, and Joseph Smith is, Paul lived in those very days. How does Joseph Smith know what Jesus looked like? It could have been a fallen angle claiming to be Jesus, I don't know, and neither does anyone else. What I am sure of, Scriptures teach that there would be no further Revelation.

This is an unfair standard you are setting up for the church. How can you prove anything? How do you know that the four gospels weren't meant merely as morality tales? How do you know if Paul really saw Christ, or if he just wanted to  claim the title of apostle? How do you know the Bible was written by inspired prophets? How do you know Satan isn't behind it as a grand scheme? As with anything, we know by faith. That's all we really have.

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How can anyone be drawn in by claims no-one can prove, or disprove?  All of Scriptures have a witness, or witnesses.

Absolutely. Have you never looked in the front of the Book of Mormon? The Testimony of the Three Witnesses? Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer each were shown the brass plates and each one conversed with the Angel Moroni. There is also a Testimony of the Eight Witnesses, eight individuals who did not see the angel, but beheld the brass plates. So there were witnesses to the restoration. And read through the Doctrine and Covenants. Almost every revelation or angelic visitation given to Joseph Smith happened in the presence of another. this is what separates his stories from others. Could they all be fabricating it? Possibly. But the likelihood is less when others are present.
But to claim that Paul did not see Jesus die, would be a private interpretation, or opinion of Scriptures.  An opinion (note indefinite article, "an," one of many opinions)  based on no evidence, conjecture.
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I can see one great, and maybe an insurmountable problem. Your knowledge of the Mormon faith, any you have apparently never studying the Bible without some form of input, great, or small coming from their literature.

I've studied the Bible extensively. I just do not see what you see.

Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #95 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 14:44:54 »
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There you go again, parts? There are no parts. God is One. No parts, no separation.

I don't understand what you mean here. You believe that God came down to earth as Christ. You also believe God stayed in heaven as the Father. How can this be unless he separated himself somehow?

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In the Christian view it is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who together are the One Eternal God.

They are one, yes, one in purpose, not in substance.

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Jesus was never less than God at any time during the 33 years of His earthly life.

If Jesus is not less than God, why did he claim he was? We have already established that Christ considered the Father to be his God. We have also established that Christ stated that the Father is greater than he is. Therefore, Christ is less than God. The Bible's pretty explicit on this one.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #96 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 15:02:54 »
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There you go again, parts? There are no parts. God is One. No parts, no separation.

I don't understand what you mean here. You believe that God came down to earth as Christ. You also believe God stayed in heaven as the Father. How can this be unless he separated himself somehow?

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In the Christian view it is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who together are the One Eternal God.

They are one, yes, one in purpose, not in substance.

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Jesus was never less than God at any time during the 33 years of His earthly life.

If Jesus is not less than God, why did he claim he was? We have already established that Christ considered the Father to be his God. We have also established that Christ stated that the Father is greater than he is. Therefore, Christ is less than God. The Bible's pretty explicit on this one.

I never said that God "stayed" in heaven, or that God came "down" to earth, and I never would. You are projecting your own assumptions onto me and calling them what I believe. You are arguing with yourself.

No, they are not only one in purpose or objective, that would be monadic monotheistic. Jesus' revelation of God is clear: "I and the Father are one;" not "I and the Father have one purpose or goal." The oneness refers to essence and relation, not to functional or teleological intent.

"We" have established little except that there is much you do not yet know.


Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #97 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 16:03:59 »
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No, they are not only one in purpose or objective, that would be monadic monotheistic. Jesus' revelation of God is clear: "I and the Father are one;" not "I and the Father have one purpose or goal." The oneness refers to essence and relation, not to functional or teleological intent.


True, Christ did say that I and the Father are one." But that does not refer to one in essence. Remember, Christ also instructed his disciples to be one. John 17:20-21 says: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Here Christ is praying that his disciples have the same unity he has with his Father. I doubt you are saying that all of Christ's disciples are of one substance, so the alternative must mean that their unity is on one will and purpose.

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I never said that God "stayed" in heaven, or that God came "down" to earth, and I never would. You are projecting your own assumptions onto me and calling them what I believe. You are arguing with yourself.

If I have misconstrued your beliefs, I apologize. So you don't believe God came to earth in the flesh? Maybe you need to specifically lay out what the Trinity is, according to your viewpoint so I can make sure I am not in error. It was my belief that you were saying that the Father and Son are both God. The son came to earth, the father did not. What does this mean, then, if I am wrong in my characterization?
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"We" have established little except that there is much you do not yet know.

I think I've shown that I have a working knowledge of the Bible. What you have failed to show is how the father and son are equal, if the father is greater, and how both can be God, when the father is God to the Son. Both of these are in direct conflict with the Trinity, yet you refuse to explain another plausible explanation other than the one that I have put forth. Tell me, then, how are these passages to be viewed in a Trinitarian context?

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #98 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 16:49:13 »
I think I've shown that I have a working knowledge of the Bible. What you have failed to show is how the father and son are equal, if the father is greater, and how both can be God, when the father is God to the Son. Both of these are in direct conflict with the Trinity, yet you refuse to explain another plausible explanation other than the one that I have put forth. Tell me, then, how are these passages to be viewed in a Trinitarian context?

Always learning (knowledge), but never coming to the truth of God's Word; very common for one decieved, and not having the faith given to Him by God.

When once you recieve the God of the Bible in your heart; all things will be made clear...Jesus is knocking at the door of your heart, I sense you are almost there, and willing to let Him in ::smile::

Offline Johnb

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #99 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 17:12:27 »
Jude
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #100 on: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 17:24:24 »
Jude
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Amen brother!  The LDS deny Jesus Christ our ONLY Sovereign Lord...who is indeed; God Almighty!  They deny the power of the Cross, in which Jesus died and rose again...and has covered all our sins and finished the work; only God could do that...certainly not a created man, or a brother of satan ::frown::
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 19:59:01 by Thankfulldad »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #101 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 08:35:24 »
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No, they are not only one in purpose or objective, that would be monadic monotheistic. Jesus' revelation of God is clear: "I and the Father are one;" not "I and the Father have one purpose or goal." The oneness refers to essence and relation, not to functional or teleological intent.

True, Christ did say that I and the Father are one." But that does not refer to one in essence. Remember, Christ also instructed his disciples to be one. John 17:20-21 says: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Of course Jesus is referring to His being one in essence with God the Father, why do you suppose they picked up stones to try and kill Him for blaspheme? Those who knew their Bible understood very well what He was proclaiming.

No, Jesus is not saying we can be one in essence with God in John 17. On the contrary, Jesus was obviously referring to relational oneness. This is actually a very good passage that relates to the Trinitarian nature of God.

Jesus was praying that His followers, all Christians, would function in a relational oneness in the one Body of Christ, in like manner as He and the Father functioned in relational oneness in the Oneness of the Trinitarian Godhead. Christians have the privilege of participating in the inter-relational oneness of the Triune God.

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I never said that God "stayed" in heaven, or that God came "down" to earth, and I never would. You are projecting your own assumptions onto me and calling them what I believe. You are arguing with yourself.

If I have misconstrued your beliefs, I apologize. So you don't believe God came to earth in the flesh? Maybe you need to specifically lay out what the Trinity is, according to your viewpoint so I can make sure I am not in error. It was my belief that you were saying that the Father and Son are both God. The son came to earth, the father did not. What does this mean, then, if I am wrong in my characterization?

I have specifically laid out what the Trinity is numerous times already. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are not, and have never been, separate. God is One.

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"We" have established little except that there is much you do not yet know.

I think I've shown that I have a working knowledge of the Bible. What you have failed to show is how the father and son are equal, if the father is greater, and how both can be God, when the father is God to the Son. Both of these are in direct conflict with the Trinity, yet you refuse to explain another plausible explanation other than the one that I have put forth. Tell me, then, how are these passages to be viewed in a Trinitarian context?

Your "working knowledge" needs work. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. Stop, and ponder that for a minute. The reason you do not understand is because you reject the foundational truths of real Christianity.



Offline pointmade

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #102 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 09:36:23 »
Dad: "Amen brother!  The LDS deny Jesus Christ our ONLY Sovereign Lord...who is indeed; God Almighty!  They deny the power of the Cross, in which Jesus died and rose again...and has covered all our sins and finished the work; only God could do that...certainly not a created man, or a brother of satan."

I have not gotten this from gun slinger's comments...From the "Introduction" in the book of Mormon:
As a Mormon, gun slinger has "asked God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if the Book of Mormon is true."

How is this accomplished in the Mormon belief?
Again from the "Introduction."
"By the divine witness of the Holy Spirit" that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world."

Is this not three identities in ONE?
gun slinger has admitted he believes "the New Testament is the word of God."

This verifies that he believes in John 15:26-27.  "When the Advocate is come, whom
I will send unto YOU (apostles) even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father,
he shall testify of me:
And YOU shall be my witness, because you have been with me from the beginning" ( John 15:26-27 ).

A "witness" in the biblical sense,  would be one who had been with Jesus "from the beginning,"
or as Paul revealed his credentials in  1 Corinthians 9:1 "Am I not an apostle,
have I not seen the Lord etc."
This narrows the field down to those as credentialed "witnesses" does it not?

In John 17:17-20 we read a statement made by Jesus that would cause me to NOT to believe in
"The Testimony of The Three Witnesses" and "The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses." ( Introduction ).

In His high priestly prayer, Jesus asked the Father to sanctify the men which were given to him
by the Father with the truth. He then prays for those which will believe on him "through THEIR word."
This is the only record in the new testament which authorizes men in how to believe on Him.
If The Book of Mormon is true, then we must consider that John 17:20 is not true.....
causing a domino affect of Jesus' high priestly prayer and the New Testament as "truth.".



Offline Johnb

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #103 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 16:15:45 »
Gunslinger
Here is the question I have.  (If you have answered it elsewhere forgive me.)   Do you believe one can be a Christian without the BofM?

Offline Johnb

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Re: Is the LDS a Christian Religion
« Reply #104 on: Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 16:26:06 »
Now as to the claim that Joseph Smiths "wives" were platonic and just for eternity. (Sorry but that line is impossible to believe)

What is the purpose of eternal marriage when the NT clearly teaches there will be no marriage in the here after.

Matt 22
 25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

 26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

 27And last of all the woman died also.

 28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

 29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

 30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This is repeated in all 3 gospels.