Author Topic: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek  (Read 360 times)

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Offline NyawehNyoh

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The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 09:50:41 »
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Many of Mormonism's men of a certain age and experience are priests in the Church's order of Melchizedek.

According to the New Testament epistle to the Hebrews, the Melchizedek priesthood is a high-priest priesthood. As such it is supposed to be occupied by only one man at a time; viz: a Melchizedek priest is solo, i.e. he has no fellows.

Also: the position of a high priest is for life, i.e. he's not replaced until he dies, which should never happen to a Melchizedek priest because according to the New Testament letter to Hebrews, they're supposed to be immortal.
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The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 09:50:41 »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 02, 2020 - 12:59:55 »
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According to some people, it's reasonable to assume that Christ's followers are Melchizedek priests too because of their priesthood's association with Jesus (1Pet 2:9). But as already pointed out, Jesus is a high priest; as was the original Melchizedek (Heb 5:10]. There can be only one of those at a time rather than a guild of many high priests.

The same pattern is employed in Aaron's priesthood. He too was a high priest but the priests under him were not. They had no special title, viz: they were just simply Levites.


FAQ: Does Mormonism's order of Melchizedek have to be biblical? Why can't a church employ the name for their proprietary order of priests; sort of like the Mason-sponsored community of Job's Daughters International?

A: Because it's fraud. Maybe Mormonism's brand of morality doesn't see it that way; but my brand sure does. Christ's high-priest priesthood is not a trifling matter; it is crucial to humanity's association with God and when Mormon men take that title to themselves, they are nothing less than identity thieves and usurping someone else's authority as their own. I can't stop them of course, but neither can I condone their conduct.
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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 11:31:34 »
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According to the letter to Hebrews, a Melchizedek high priest must be childless. That alone disqualifies most Mormon men because they're typically married with children.


BTW: If Mormons challenge you to produce textual evidence to substantiate your knowledge of the Bible's two high priesthoods: don't do it. Instead tell them that if they want textual evidence then they will just have to study the letter to Hebrews themselves because you're not telling.

The reason I recommend that stance is because Mormon men are supposed to be well-versed so that you shouldn't have to produce textual evidence. Don't let them talk you out of this by citing rules of academic discussion and so forth. You're neither a salesman nor a politician, i.e. you don't have to win; all you have to do is know what you're talking about; and as for him that's biblically ignorant; let him be ignorant still.

If the Mormons with whom you are conversing attempt to divert you, or refute you with "revelation" or in any way confuse the issue and/or snow you with clever LDS sophistry; it's time to come to a full stop-- politely thank them for their time, and bid them have a nice day.
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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #3 on: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 10:08:52 »
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The first Melchizedek high priest presided on Earth in the book of Genesis. That's changed. According to the New Testament's letter to Hebrews, the Melchizedek high priest now presides in Heaven.

In point of fact, were Jesus on Earth he would not be a high priest at all because the Earth is Aaron's jurisdiction; and to replace Aaron, Jesus would have to descend from him because Aaron's high priesthood is obtained by inheritance; whereas Melchizedek's is obtained by appointment.

Another fact worth knowing is that high priests in Aaron's order have to be Jews, while the racial distinction of high priests in Melchizedek's order doesn't matter because the original Melchizedek's race is unknown. But for sure he wasn't a Jew because none existed in Abraham's day.
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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 12:25:10 »
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According to the New Testament's letter to Hebrews: Melchizedek high priests have to be human, but at the same time they cannot be someone who came into existence by birth. In other words: Melchizedek high priests always were, they always are, and they always will be, i.e. they have no genealogy to trace.

This is problematic because the current Melchizedek high priest is Jesus Christ; a Jewish man who can be easily proven not only human, but also easily proven that he came into existence by birth, and also has a genealogy that can be traced. Were Jesus Christ only human, he would not qualify for Melchizedek high priesthood. But we know from John 1:1-14 and Hebrews 3:3-4 that Jesus Christ is also divine.

This may seem like a trivial issue but according to the New Testament's letter to Hebrews; in order for someone to be an effective mediator between God and Man, he has to be both human and divine. I seriously doubt that there's even one sensible Mormon man anywhere on Earth who would dare lay claim to being both human and divine. Those are some really big shoes to fill.
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« Last Edit: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 22:54:35 by NyawehNyoh »

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 12:25:10 »



Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 20:57:51 »
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Many of Mormonism's men of a certain age and experience are priests in the Church's order of Melchizedek.

According to the New Testament epistle to the Hebrews, the Melchizedek priesthood is a high-priest priesthood. As such it is supposed to be occupied by only one man at a time; viz: a Melchizedek priest is solo, i.e. he has no fellows.

Also: the position of a high priest is for life, i.e. he's not replaced until he dies, which should never happen to a Melchizedek priest because according to the New Testament letter to Hebrews, they're supposed to be immortal.

I would gladly contend against these claims, but you gave no scriptural support, and a reading of Hebrews does not bear this out. I see nothing supporting your assertion, and without knowing what it is your stating, continued discourse would be difficult.

Quote
According to some people, it's reasonable to assume that Christ's followers are Melchizedek priests too because of their priesthood's association with Jesus (1Pet 2:9). But as already pointed out, Jesus is a high priest; as was the original Melchizedek (Heb 5:10]. There can be only one of those at a time rather than a guild of many high priests.

Latter-day Saints would not dispute this. I think you lack a basic understanding of the way the church uses the term high priest.

Quote
A: Because it's fraud. Maybe Mormonism's brand of morality doesn't see it that way; but my brand sure does. Christ's high-priest priesthood is not a trifling matter; it is crucial to humanity's association with God and when Mormon men take that title to themselves, they are nothing less than identity thieves and usurping someone else's authority as their own. I can't stop them of course, but neither can I condone their conduct.

Well, this pattern was established by God, so unless you are calling God a fraud, this is incorrect.

Quote
BTW: If Mormons challenge you to produce textual evidence to substantiate your knowledge of the Bible's two high priesthoods: don't do it. Instead tell them that if they want textual evidence then they will just have to study the letter to Hebrews themselves because you're not telling.


So in other words, you can't back up your position so you don't even try. Sorry, but that's not how it works.


Quote
The reason I recommend that stance is because Mormon men are supposed to be well-versed so that you shouldn't have to produce textual evidence. Don't let them talk you out of this by citing rules of academic discussion and so forth. You're neither a salesman nor a politician, i.e. you don't have to win; all you have to do is know what you're talking about; and as for him that's biblically ignorant; let him be ignorant still.

First off, please stop referring to us as "Mormons.." We do not belong to "Mormon's church." We belong to Christ's church. Our proper designation is "Latter-day Saints."

Secondly. Most "Mormon" men have no professional theological  training. There is no divinity school and we have no paid ministry. The knowledge held by Latter-day Saint men run the gamut from incredibly well-versed to abject ignorance. To presume that we should just "get it" because we should already know it is faulty beyond belief. And if you truly believe yourself right, and take the Great Commission seriously, you would seek to make sure those you teach understand what it is you are teaching them. In reality, you refuse to engage because of the weakness of your position, not because of  its self-evident nature.

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If the Mormons with whom you are conversing attempt to divert you, or refute you with "revelation" or in any way confuse the issue and/or snow you with clever LDS sophistry; it's time to come to a full stop-- politely thank them for their time, and bid them have a nice day.

So not only will you not attempt to back up your argument, you also refuse to allow others the chance to reason out their beliefs? Tell me, how effective is this method of ministering? In my head, I picture something like this:

NyawehNyoh: You Latter day Saints are wrong. You besmirch the authority of God and grossly misapply his word.

Latter-day Saint Man: Oh, really? In what way?

NyawehNyoh: Well, you misinterpret Hebrews.

Latter-day Saint Man: I don't think we do. I've studied Hebrews myself and I don't interpret it as you do. But I'm willing to be enlightened. Can you please show me the evidence for your position?

NyawehNyoh: Nope. Not my job. You're a smart guy. Figure it out on your own. After all, every Latter-day Saint guy is a brilliant theologian, so you clearly know I'm right. You can't possibly have an honest disagreement regarding interpretation. But on the off chance that you are not the sterling gospel scholar I though you were, too bad. Your ignorance condemns you to HELL!

Latter-day Saint Man: I disagree. If I may explain where I'm coming from... See, my beliefs are rooted in actual revelation from God. If you read Moroni 10: 3-5...

NyawehNyoh: See ya, you poor, ignorant heathen. This conversation is over!

Quote
According to the New Testament's letter to Hebrews: Melchizedek high priests have to be human, but at the same time they cannot be someone who came into existence by birth. In other words: Melchizedek high priests always were, they always are, and they always will be, i.e. they have no genealogy to trace.

This doesn't really make any sense. By this definition, literally everyone, including Jesus would be excluded. By your own admission, Jesus himself only got the position because of a technicality. Why would God create an order that literally no one can obtain?

If you are referencing Hebrews 7:3, understand that our interpretation is influenced by additional Scriptures that we accept as divine and you don't. So telling us to just read and study it does nothing because we view it in light of modern day revelation from God, not in the arm of the flesh, as you do.

Quote
This may seem like a trivial issue but according to the New Testament's letter to Hebrews; in order for someone to be an effective mediator between God and Man, he has to be both human and divine. I seriously doubt that there's even one sensible Mormon man anywhere on Earth who would dare lay claim to being both human and divine. Those are some really big shoes to fill.

The Scriptures disagree with you. Don't believe me? Too bad. Not my job to prove you wrong.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 21:02:16 by the_last_gunslinger »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #6 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 22:51:15 »
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The first Melchizedek high priest presided on Earth in the book of Genesis. That's changed. According to the New Testament's letter to Hebrews, the Melchizedek high priest now presides in Heaven.

In point of fact, were Jesus on Earth he would not be a high priest at all because the Earth is Aaron's jurisdiction; and to replace Aaron, Jesus would have to descend from him because Aaron's high priesthood is obtained by inheritance; whereas Melchizedek's is obtained by appointment.

Another fact worth knowing is that high priests in Aaron's order have to be Jews, while the racial distinction of high priests in Melchizedek's order doesn't matter because the original Melchizedek's race is unknown. But for sure he wasn't a Jew because none existed in Abraham's day.
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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #7 on: Fri Feb 07, 2020 - 22:06:38 »
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FAQ: Doesn't the 110th Psalm imply that David was a priest after the order of Melchizedek?

A: According to Matt 22:41-45, that Psalm speaks specifically of David's son Christ rather than David himself; and within the Psalm, David refers to Christ as his superior, which is very interesting because David is the paterfamilias of the Davidic dynasty. As such, he outranks them all; yet in Psalm 110 there's one among his royal posterity whom even David himself must worship.

Phil 2:9-11 . .God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (cf. Dan 7:13-14)
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« Last Edit: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 20:34:26 by NyawehNyoh »

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #8 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 20:43:12 »
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According to Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17, the covenant that God instituted with Moses' people-- per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy --doesn't have ex post facto jurisdiction, i.e. it isn't retroactive.

That was a tremendous advantage for Abraham because he lived something like 400 years before that covenant; viz: Abraham was exempt from the covenant's rules, laws, and regulations; which means that he was at liberty to break all ten of the Ten Commandments without fear of incurring the covenant's curse prescribed by Deut 27:26, which reads:

"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out."

It was an advantage for Melchizedek too because the covenant designated Aaron and his male posterity for the high priesthood; which of course would've disqualified Melchizedek seeing as how he wasn't one of Aaron's descendants.

Aaron's high priesthood can be legitimately called an "order" because a succession of his male posterity inherited the office as each died in turn; whereas technically Melchizedek's high priesthood isn't an order because his priesthood isn't transferred via inheritance; which is no doubt why his genealogy isn't recorded in the Bible.

Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that the constituents of Aaron's high priesthood are always in grave danger of the curse prescribed by Deut 27:26, whereas the constituents of Melchizedek's high priesthood aren't. So then, were people to be given an option between those two high priesthoods, obviously the sensible choice would be Melchizedek's because his offers the greatest degree of safety; and also the best access to God seeing as how Jesus Christ is seated at God's right hand, practically rubbing shoulders with Him. (Acts 2:33, Eph 1:20, Heb 8:1, Rev 3:21)
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Offline the_last_gunslinger

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #9 on: Sun Feb 09, 2020 - 17:20:11 »
Honestly, I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue. Rather than making a specific claim that can then be discussed, you have opted for a stream of conscious post detailing the Aaronic and Melchizedek orders of the Priesthood. So I'm at a loss as to how to respond because I'm not sure what your main points are, or if you even welcome a reciprocal discourse.

From what I gather, it would be incredibly difficult to discuss the matter of the Priesthood because we both approach the subject from divergent paradigms that make seeing eye to eye complicated.

From what I understand of what your conception of the Aaronic vs Melchizedek Priesthood, you seem to be viewing them as completely separate entities operating independent of one another, and please correct me if I have misconstrued your beliefs. For Latter-day Saints, there is no distinction. All Priesthood is Melchizedek, the Priesthood of Aaron is but an appendage to the higher Priesthood, holding the keys of carnal commandments and outward ordinances. Contrast this with the priesthood of Melchizedek which holds the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom of God.

By way of analogy, if we were to imagine the Priesthood as a cup of liquid, most Christians view the Aaronic Priesthood as a glass of water, which was then replaced by a cup of fruit juice (the Melchizedek Priesthood). For Latter-day Saints, we would liken it unto a glass of water that is only part way full, (Aaronic) and then we pour more water into it (the Melchizedek Priesthood). To us, the Priesthood is most simply defined as the power and authority of God delegated to Man. So when Jesus laid his hands upon the heads of his apostles, he conferred upon them the Melchizedek Priesthood.

The Priesthood of Aaron was Levitical in nature, held only amongst those of the tribe of Levi. I think we agree on that. And the reason the Children of Israel were given the lesser priesthood to govern them was because they were unable and unwilling to abide by the higher law and a higher covenant that pertains to the Higher Priesthood of Melchizedek. But since the Aaronic Priesthood is insufficient for governing the affairs of God, even in ancient Israel, the Melchizedek Priesthood was had amongst the Lord's Prophets, such as Moses, Joshua, Ezekiel and anyone  called to be God's mouthpiece on earth.

The Aaronic Priesthood, being subject to the Melchizedek Priesthood, an appendage, as it is, those who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood can officiate in ordinances belonging to the Levitical order, since the Priesthood of Melchizedek encompasses ALL authority given by God. That is why we read in the Book of Mormon of Lehi and his descendants ordaining priests, building temples and offering sacrifices. Lehi's family was not of the tribe of Levi, but of Joseph. Yet, unlike the children of Israel in the old world, the Saints in the New World possessed the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood, which means they could officiate in the same rites as their Levite brethren by virtue of their higher priesthood.

I don't know how much our beliefs about these doctrines clash, but I felt the need to give a brief rundown of my church's own understanding of the Priesthood, maybe it might elicit some form of discussion.

Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 21:55:44 »
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Jesus Christ today is a high priest patterned after a high priest in the Old Testament named Melchizedek (Ps 110:1-4, Heb 5:1-7:28). In order for him to be effective, one of the qualifications of a high priest is that they have to be able to relate to their constituents. So; in order for Jesus to satisfy that requirement, he had to be a genuine h.sapiens; which entails having a genuine h.sapiens' body.

Heb 2:13-18 . . Here am I, and the children God has given me.

. . . Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil-- and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.

. . . For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Christ lived on this earth for about 30 years prior to his public appearances; and during those years, he did not lead a sheltered life; in point of fact, he underwent a sort of boot camp.

Heb 5:7-9 . . During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

The Greek word translate "source" refers to that which is causative, i.e. a motive force that gets the ball rolling and makes thing happen, so to speak.

It's a piece of cake for the Word of John 1:1 to comply with God's wishes because the Word himself is God too. But when the Word took on the nature of a human being; that's when he found out just how difficult it is for flesh and blood to comply with God's wishes; hence the prayers and loud cries and tears. But his experiences as a human being forged him into the kind of high priest that God deems suitable to hold the office.

Heb 2:10 . . For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 4:15-16 . . We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-- yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

The Greek words for "confidence" indicate that when speaking to Christ, it's okay to just be yourself; viz: to be out-spoken, i.e. frank and candid: which has been made possible by a priesthood in Heaven chaired by a fellow man who lived down here on the Earth as an h.sapiens long enough to know what it's like to be one.
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Offline NyawehNyoh

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Re: The LDS Order Of Melchizedek
« Reply #11 on: Tue Feb 11, 2020 - 11:49:10 »
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The primary purpose of a high priest is to reconcile God and Man, i.e. a mediator. No ordinary high priest can do that because he himself is likely in need of reconciliation.

Heb 5:1-3 . . Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

The representation available to people via an ordinary man is limited. Take for example Aaron; the Jews' high priest. Though he was the holiest man in the whole land, he was permitted to approach the presence of God only one day out of the entire year, and even then for a limited amount of time. He was not allowed to remain in the presence of God and spend some time discussing the personal needs and concerns of each and every one of his constituents on an individual basis, and that's because Aaron was just as much a sinner as they; in point of fact maybe even more so.

At times the high priest's constituents could plead ignorance as an excuse for their sins, but not him. Aaron was supposed to know God's feelings about things well enough to teach them (Mal 2:7) so at least some of Aaron's disobedience was in the full knowledge that it was wrong. Those kinds of sins are called "willful" and according to Num 15:30-31 willful sins are unpardonable and offenders are supposed to be banned from Temple services.

The ideal mediator is someone that's 100% innocent in thought, word, and deed because then they can remain in the presence of God permanently and spend as much time as necessary discussing their constituents' needs and concerns.

Heb 7:26-28 . . Such a high priest meets our need-- one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 10:11-12 . . Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
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