GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: A Case of Conscience for Traditional Confessional, WELS, and/or LCMS Lutherans!  (Read 349 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jjeanniton

  • Guest
According to the traditional Lutheran Confessions, it is unlawful for women to publicly "harangue" (i.e. address public assemblies - or even publicly and vocally ask questions) in a formal worship service or practice any other form of authority over the congregation, like preaching & teaching in church or conducting the service or officiating as a cleric: therefore churches which adhere to the traditional Lutheran Confessions have NEVER allowed Women's Ordination.

According to the author, Harold Holmyard III (a graduate from the Dallas Theological Seminary), when believers are gathered for a divine liturgy in a local church, such a session of the assembly is ipso facto representative of the Universal Church, the Mystical body of Christ. Those who are authorized to publicly address such assemblies (which is commonly called publicly SPEAKING in the assembly) are in de facto and/or de jure divino roles of authority and/or jurisdiction, because everyone else is bound in conscience (under penalty of having desecrated the divine worship) to yield courteous attention. But Harold Holmyard III testified that in such planned formal assemblies, only adult males are eligible to exercise such authoritative actions.

Would it therefore have been lawful for women to serve as Sabbath / Sunday School teachers with adult or adolescent male members of the class, or to direct mixed choirs? Or would 1 Corinthians 14:34/35 and 1 Timothy 2:11/12 have forbidden such things?  ::headscratch:: ::pondering:: ::shrug::

Christian Forums and Message Board


Offline NorrinRadd

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Manna: 48
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
    • View Profile
According to the traditional Lutheran Confessions, ...

My family attends the smaller of the two local ELCA churches, and my college roommate is an ELCA pastor elsewhere in the Commonwealth.  Just FWIW.

(My own theological leanings are more in line with Assembly of God, Foursquare Church, and Vineyard.)

Quote
...
it is unlawful ...

And yet you complain when being called a "legalist."

Quote
...for women to publicly "harangue" (i.e. address public assemblies - or even publicly and vocally ask questions)...

This is a non-standard and pejorative definition of "harangue" that suggests bias on your part, or on the part of the aforementioned "confessions," or both.

Quote
in a formal worship service or practice any other form of authority over the congregation, like preaching & teaching in church or conducting the service or officiating as a cleric: therefore churches which adhere to the traditional Lutheran Confessions have NEVER allowed Women's Ordination.

Well, then I'm glad my family and friends are ELCA, rather than one of those more stringent groups.

Personally, even the ELCA is way too much like "Catholic-Lite" for me.  To me, "high church" formats import an excessive amount of their practices from the Obsolete Covenant.

And I'm not at all sure there is a firm Scriptural basis for the idea of a sharp distinction between "formal" worship services and general gatherings of believers.

Quote
According to the author, Harold Holmyard III (a graduate from the Dallas Theological Seminary), when believers are gathered for a divine liturgy in a local church, such a session of the assembly is ipso facto representative of the Universal Church, the Mystical body of Christ.

Naturally, I do not at all identify with churches who believe they find basis for a "divine liturgy" in the New Covenant.

Quote
Those who are authorized to publicly address such assemblies (which is commonly called publicly SPEAKING in the assembly) are in de facto and/or de jure divino roles of authority and/or jurisdiction, because everyone else is bound in conscience (under penalty of having desecrated the divine worship) to yield courteous attention. But Harold Holmyard III testified that in such planned formal assemblies, only adult males are eligible to exercise such authoritative actions.

The sort of stringent formality implied here is, as far as I can see, utterly absent from the New Testament Scriptures.

Quote
Would it therefore have been lawful for women to serve as Sabbath / Sunday School teachers with adult or adolescent male members of the class, or to direct mixed choirs? Or would 1 Corinthians 14:34/35 and 1 Timothy 2:11/12 have forbidden such things?  ::headscratch:: ::pondering:: ::shrug::

By the rules of logic, probably not.  But since I reject your premises, I also reject that conclusion.

Christian Forums and Message Board


Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6098
  • Manna: 247
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
    • View Profile
Here we go again, taking some verses out of context and creating a law from them.  ::juggle::

Offline Texas Conservative

  • Fundytastic Resident Board Genius
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7489
  • Manna: 301
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
    • View Profile
Here we go again, taking some verses out of context and creating a law from them.  ::juggle::

I wouldn't go as far as the OP.  Women in have addressed the congregation in my fellowship for numerous ministry updates under the leadership of the elders.

However, they are not to be elders, or preachers.  God's Word is explicit on that one.

Christian Forums and Message Board


Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6888
  • Manna: 210
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
    • View Profile
To prophesy in the NT is used to mean to foretell the future or to simply speak God's truth [typically by divine counsel].  Clearly this is not limited to men in the NT.  See for example Peter's sermon in Acts 2 where he quotes from Joel that "God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy." Also we read in Acts 21:9 that Philip had for daughters who prophesied.  So clearly there is no "law" in the NT prohibiting women from preaching and teaching God's word. I think much of the talk against women preaching and teaching is misguided.

Christian Forums and Message Board


Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
To prophesy in the NT is used to mean to foretell the future or to simply speak God's truth [typically by divine counsel].  Clearly this is not limited to men in the NT.  See for example Peter's sermon in Acts 2 where he quotes from Joel that "God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy." Also we read in Acts 21:9 that Philip had for daughters who prophesied.  So clearly there is no "law" in the NT prohibiting women from preaching and teaching God's word. I think much of the talk against women preaching and teaching is misguided.

It seems to me any restrictions on women preaching or teaching are in the church when assembled, not evangelism or other outside the assembly activities.

But then, I don't spend much time discussing this topic.

jjeanniton

  • Guest
It seems to me any restrictions on women preaching or teaching are in the church when assembled, not evangelism or other outside the assembly activities.

But then, I don't spend much time discussing this topic.

Dear "soterion,"

This case of conscience IS worth discussing, because either the act of teaching a mixed Sunday / Sabbath school class with adult or adolescent MALES in them is an exercise of authority over men or it isn't. Either the act of conducting and directing a mixed choir is an exercise of authority over men or it isn't. There are no other possible outcomes in the question of mixed choirs nor in the question of Sunday Schools. Neutrality in questions of the Law of God is treason! One is either a citizen or an enemy. Either a person is INNOCENT or else he/she is GUILTY. Paul the Apostle (at least according to the traditional historical interpretation) neither allows women to teach (adult males) nor to exercise authority over men in the affairs of the public worship (1 Timothy 2:11/12).

Is the act of teaching a mixed Sunday / Sabbath school class with adult or adolescent MALES in them is an exercise of authority over these males?  ::shrug::

Is the act of conducting and directing a mixed choir is an exercise of authority over men?  ::shrug::

These two questions are the key to resolving this case of conscience.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 09:35:15 by jjeanniton »

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15984
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
These two questions are the key to resolving this case of conscience.

If it is a case for conscience, only you can find the answer you need.

If you find that you can't sit at a church with a woman speaking up in Sunday school or co-teaching with her husband or leading choir/worship, then you need to allow yourself the permission to find a place that better suits your conscience.

Offline soterion

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • Manna: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Dear "soterion,"

This case of conscience IS worth discussing, because either the act of teaching a mixed Sunday / Sabbath school class with adult or adolescent MALES in them is an exercise of authority over men or it isn't. Either the act of conducting and directing a mixed choir is an exercise of authority over men or it isn't. There are no other possible outcomes in the question of mixed choirs nor in the question of Sunday Schools. Neutrality in questions of the Law of God is treason! One is either a citizen or an enemy. Either you are INNOCENT or you are GUILTY. Paul the Apostle neither allows women to teach (adult males) nor to exercise authority over men in the affairs of the public worship (1 Timothy 2:11/12).

Is the act of teaching a mixed Sunday / Sabbath school class with adult or adolescent MALES in them is an exercise of authority over these males?  ::shrug::

Is the act of conducting and directing a mixed choir is an exercise of authority over men?  ::shrug::

These two questions are the key to resolving this case of conscience.

Well, you completely misunderstood what I said.

Maybe you handle the Bible that way, as well. ::pondering::

Offline NorrinRadd

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Manna: 48
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
    • View Profile
I wouldn't go as far as the OP.  Women in have addressed the congregation in my fellowship for numerous ministry updates under the leadership of the elders.

However, they are not to be elders, or preachers.  God's Word is explicit on that one.

That is pretty much the "traditional" view, and does seem to be the prima facie message of a few particular passages.

However, many of us see both Testaments "explicitly" showing women preaching, teaching, and being in leadership positions, including judge, deacon, patron, and apostle.

jjeanniton

  • Guest
And just as though it were not sufficient to forbid women to direct mixed choirs, on February 1933, a Lutheran named August C. Kroeger, in Argentina, not content with just laying down the "law" that women are not to have any part whatever in what Confessional Lutheranism calls "the public ministry of the Word", also stated that teaching in the Sunday school and parish day school must be included in the list of things which a woman are FORBIDDEN from doing! (See A.C. Kroeger, "Die Stellung der Frau in der christlichen Kirche," Concordia Theological Monthly, IV, 85-95)