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Author Topic: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .  (Read 6110 times)

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Stucky

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #35 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 16:20:22 »
All is forgiven.  No worries!


Thank you.  I just e-mailed my best friend today trying to get him to come to this board.  He is still very active in the Luthern Church and is much more wiser than I.  I told him about my disagreements with you and ex cathedra.  I also told him what an ass I made of myself.  Hopefully, he will join the discussions here, he is very wise and calmer than I.

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #35 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 16:20:22 »

Offline extranos

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #36 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 17:05:24 »
Quote
Okay boys, I'm a young guy, I work as a lead miner,  my wife is about to deliver our second baby.  I have never been to church in my life.  I go to the tavern on Friday and Saturday nights.  I'm good looking and the bar girls alway hit on me.  Once in a while I hook up with them.  My wife is at home caring for our first child and doing housework.

For some reason, I've been wondering about my life and my family lately.  Something, my conscience I guess, has been making me feel guilty about the things I do.  I've been wondering if I'm living the way I should.  What will happen to me when I die?  My wife isn't a church goer either.  What about her and my kids?  Is there something after death?

What can you tell me?

Stucky,
In your hypothetical situation, I would start with Christ but do it via Creation.  Rather than jump directly into Jesus and what a sinner you are, I would explain how the world could not have evolved.  Anyone with even a basic understanding of probabilities can see how unreasonable it is to believe that life evolved from a Big Bang into this multitude of forms that we see around us.  On top of that, the Big Bang requires things like Space, Matter, in addition to abstract and invisible forces like laws of chemisty, laws of mathematics, laws of motion, laws of energy, etc. 
A devoted evolutionist is said to have admitted that the odds of evolution were similar to the odds of a tornado hitting a junkyard and perfectly assembling a 747 from the metal scrap.  In other words, Evolution is ridiculous even though the world mocks us for saying it.
So, if I can make some headway establishing that there is a God, and He is so powerful that He can create this world that we see, then perhaps we can move to the next step and talk about how man is the crown of God's creation, and that all was created for our good pleasure.   If I can get this far, then I've established that God created and loved mankind from the start.
After that, it gets trickier, I think, but I'm not the one who will do the convincing....only the Spirit can bring someone to faith, but the next step is to talk about the Fall, and why there is evil in the world, and why Christ was necessary.  From there, the historical Jesus can be discussed both through the Scriptures and through the secular reports from history.  If someone who does not know Jesus can see that there is proof that this Man really lived on earth, then Christianity can become real instead of a fairy tale.

I think it is unproductive to badger people, so this has to be done with a light touch.  If this hypothetical person trusts that I have his best interests at heart, he's going to be much  more willing to listen to what I am saying.  The man in your example needs to be told that his conscience is God's way of telling him to stop his sinful behavior, but there is a lot of ground that needs to be covered before the man in your example will probably be ready to join a church.  Then again, maybe not.  One can never be sure of the reaction when one is confronted with Jesus.

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #36 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 17:05:24 »

Stucky

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #37 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 17:13:37 »
Extranos,

Well, the old Stucky wants to debate this with you, but the new Stucky promised not to because of his inability to stay civil when he gets upset.

Suffice to say, I disagree with that as a starting approach.  It would be good for later though but for a start, the listener left about halfway through.

But, you're a good guy, thanks for responding.

Offline extranos

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #38 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 19:03:48 »
Quote
Well, the old Stucky wants to debate this with you

Stucky, why don't you reply and tell me how you would handle it.  I'm not going to say that my way is the only way, nor that any other approach than the one I'd take would be wrong.  I'm more than happy to read what you have to say...and willing to admit that your way might be much better than my way.

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #38 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 19:03:48 »

Stucky

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 19:31:23 »
Okay,

I gave the illustration about the lead miner because it was a real situation.
It was a guy I knew and like I said, he began wondering about God and Jesus, etc.  I don't mean that my way was any better but for the people I have witnessed to this way works a lot better than discussions about doctrine and all of the intricasies of Christianity and life with God.

I gave them the express message of salvation and left it to them and the Holy Spirit to investigate Christianity deeper and grow into mature Christians.  It works.  Many of them became better Christians than me. 

I start by asking them what they think happens to them after death.  They usually don't know but offer suggestions:  Heaven and hell, re-incarnation, nothingness, whatever.  I ask them if they can believe in Heaven and hell and they usually say yes but how or why.

So I explain that all men sin and that we have a God that created man and wants us to live with Him in Heaven but that He can't abide any sin so we cannot go until we have paid for our sin.  They usually ask, and I explain, how we pay for our sin.  I give them the message of Jesus, short and simple, and how He paid for our sins.  By this time I'm letting them set the tone and speed of our talk with their questions to me.

I answer their questions and they usually show interest in learning more.
I go further into the message of Jesus and salvation and, after they have thought about our talks, they start getting eager to know more.  Sometimes they have begun reading the Bible on their own and sometimes they express an interest in church.  Either way I tell them to find a church, get involved in going and taking their families and keep reading the Bible and, when they feel the spirit move them, to proclaim their faith, get baptised and keep studying the Bible and spreading the message of Christ.

That's about it.  I haven't explained very good and I may have left out some stuff because when I talk about the message of salvation the Holy Spirit gives me the words to say and it is a lot smoother than it appears on here.

I was raised with common, country people and if I talked like the folks on this board my neighbors wouldn't have listened to me.  When they picked a church, they picked different churches a lot of the time.  Some go to the same church but there are many different churches where I live and they have a wide choice.

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 19:31:23 »



Offline extranos

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #40 on: Thu Jan 14, 2010 - 16:29:37 »
I have no problem with your approach.  Sounds fine.

ex cathedra

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #41 on: Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 21:36:24 »
Luther wrote 'The Bondage of the Will', which is still in print.


                               LUTHERANS  MAY WANT TO COPY THIS AND PUT IT IN YOUR BIBLES.
AS IT CAN BE HARD TO FIND AGAIN.


I wish the expression free will had never been invented. It is not recorded in scripture either.
And should more justly be called self will, which is  worthless. Why all this boasting about free will and the power of a man, about the natural light of reason? What is but  blindness and darkness .Can it do any thing
Than fight against the True  faith and Gods word. This is why I reject and condemn as nothing but falsehood
Every doctrine that lauds our free will. For since apart from Christ , death and sin  are our master and the devil is our God and prince, there can be  neither power nor might  neither wit or wisdom, by which we may pre pare our selves  for righteousness and life  or search for them. On the contrary we are bound to be blinded  captives  of the devil and slaves to sin, to do and to think  whatever our  master satan wishes  and is opposed to God with his commandments. Ah what a fine freedom that is.

Martin Luther.


Do I understand this correctly?  I believe in Jesus as my Saviour because I am forced to by God?  I have no other choice?  

                               LUTHERANS  MAY WANT TO COPY THIS AND PUT IT IN YOUR BIBLES.
AS IT CAN BE HARD TO FIND AGAIN.


I wish the expression free will had never been invented. It is not recorded in scripture either.
And should more justly be called self will, which is  worthless. Why all this boasting about free will and the power of a man, about the natural light of reason? What is but  blindness and darkness .Can it do any thing
Than fight against the True  faith and Gods word. This is why I reject and condemn as nothing but falsehood
Every doctrine that lauds our free will. For since apart from Christ , death and sin  are our master and the devil is our God and prince, there can be  neither power nor might  neither wit or wisdom, by which we may pre pare our selves  for righteousness and life  or search for them. On the contrary we are bound to be blinded  captives  of the devil and slaves to sin, to do and to think  whatever our  master satan wishes  and is opposed to God with his commandments. Ah what a fine freedom that is.

Martin Luther.


Do I understand this correctly?  I believe in Jesus as my Saviour because I am forced to by God?  I have no other choice?  



No stucky . you dont understand  luthers or lutheran theology  correctly .


your talking  or hinting at

irresistable grace which  is a calvanist doctrine and not compatable with the Lutheran confessions.

Lutherans believe

that people can resist the Holy spirit.

Acts 7:51

 51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!


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« Last Edit: Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 21:47:55 by ex cathedra »

ex cathedra

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #42 on: Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 21:55:46 »
extranos


what i am getting at-----again  is lutheran doctrine.

go back a few years to confirmation. does not  this quote from luther remind you of .


The meaning of the third article of the apostles creed

here again we see the bondage of will and GodThe holy spirit freeing ones will only through faith in  Christ.





Offline extranos

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 22:08:06 »
ExC,
I believe that our will is not free in the spiritual sense, but is free in the temporal sense.  In other words, we can choose to wear a red shirt, but we cannot choose to stop sinning.
Luther's The Bondage of the Will is a fantastic book.

ex cathedra

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #44 on: Fri Jan 15, 2010 - 22:25:45 »
ExC,
I believe that our will is not free in the spiritual sense, but is free in the temporal sense.  In other words, we can choose to wear a red shirt, but we cannot choose to stop sinning.
Luther's The Bondage of the Will is a fantastic book.

  we can even choose to go to a bible teaching christian church

 yet its by Gods grace Alone is why one would  believe its greatest message  about Gods  forgivness of sin only through faith in Jesus .

Offline extranos

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Re: Luther standing up for the bibles teaching on total depravity .
« Reply #45 on: Sat Jan 16, 2010 - 09:31:51 »
Quote
we can even choose to go to a bible teaching christian church

 yet its by Gods grace Alone is why one would  believe its greatest message  about Gods  forgivness of sin only through faith in Jesus .
Agreed.  That's why, when I was discussing how I would talk to someone who is curious about Christ, I pointed out that I can only do so much.  The actual conversion and coming to faith of said person will be the work of the Holy Spirit.
Even so, Scripture points out that Paul used reason to try to get the Athenians started....

Acts 17:22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

 29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stoneā€”an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."


We have to start somewhere, us feeble Christians, and then trust the Spirit will do His work.

 

     
anything