ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN IS TRUST IN JESUS MERITS ?

[Hehealedme]

Quote from: ex cathedra on Yesterday at 08:46:29 PM
Dear Anna baptist of persuasion person .

ex-cathedra...why did you call me that?...I am still waiting for your answer...


Oh and by the way, if you took the time to really read what I said, I did get my son baptized before he died...so don't worry about his salvation...

But if I understand what you said correctly, my son would have had faith in Jesus otherwise he wouldn't have been saved?...is that correct?...

[Hehealedme]

Quote from ex-cathedra:

we take Gods word at face value it is obvious many don't and use logic to reject Gods word about baptism.

Luke 7:30
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

John 3:5-6

 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Acts 2:38-39

 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

I do not reject God's Word about baptism...lets be logical here...how can a baby that can't even speak yet repent of his sins before he physically dies at 20 days old?...

That Catholic priest flat out told me that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died........that is sickening!...

[ex cathedra]

Dear Anna baptist of persuasion person .

I think "Anabaptist" is the term you're trying to use.  But, it's not entirely accurate.  That refers to a specific movement in 16th Century Europe, from which a small handful of groups have descended.  There are plenty of groups today who don't practice infant baptism, who aren't included in the historical Anabaptist movement.

I do think it's interesting in scripture that every baptism account was for persons who were willingly baptized and made it known their faith in Christ.  There's a disconnect in your reasoning that no one can be saved without trusting Jesus, therefore infants should be baptized.  It just doesn't follow.  
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your wrong DCR Jesus great commision command proves that

 Go make deciples by baptizing and  --------------

DCR  The very though of why you would baptize is against every thing Jesus came to do.

You would have people follow Jesus command to baptize as some thing they do because of belief. MAKING Jesus no better than a law giver.


Jesus commands baptism because he is not a law giver but desires to be once again the  giver of the gospel of his forgivness.


again what i say is easy to prove and disproves your thoughts DCR ON BAPTISM.


I CAN EASLY DO THIS WITH JUST TWO VERSES .


John 1:16-18
16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.



Acts 2:38-39

 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

[ex cathedra]

Quote from ex-cathedra:

we take Gods word at face value it is obvious many don't and use logic to reject Gods word about baptism.

Luke 7:30
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

John 3:5-6

 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Acts 2:38-39

 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

I do not reject God's Word about baptism...lets be logical here...how can a baby that can't even speak yet repent of his sins before he physically dies at 20 days old?...

That Catholic priest flat out told me that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died........that is sickening!...


Truth can be sickning .
im glad you had your baby baptized.

[ex cathedra]

Quote from: ex cathedra on Yesterday at 08:46:29 PM
Dear Anna baptist of persuasion person .

ex-cathedra...why did you call me that?...I am still waiting for your answer...


Oh and by the way, if you took the time to really read what I said, I did get my son baptized before he died...so don't worry about his salvation...

But if I understand what you said correctly, my son would have had faith in Jesus otherwise he wouldn't have been saved?...is that correct?...

thats not what i said . you should re read what i said  more carefuly.

[ex cathedra]

"lets be logical here...how can a baby that can't even speak yet repent of his sins before he physically dies at 20 days old?..."


you realy dont understand do you? you believe your logic.

this is how  babys can repent and believe in Jesus all at the same exact time in baptism  .




John 11:39-45
39"Take away the stone," he said.
      "But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."

 40Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"

 41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

 43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
      Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."


 45Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him.

[Hehealedme]

I did re-read what you posted a few times already and it still isn't completely clear to me...I am not accustomed to your way of writing...

[Hehealedme]

Quote from Hehealedme:

I do not reject God's Word about baptism...lets be logical here...how can a baby that can't even speak yet repent of his sins before he physically dies at 20 days old?...

That Catholic priest flat out told me that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died........that is sickening!...




Quote from ex-cathedra:

Truth can be sickning .
im glad you had your baby baptized.

So according to your response, you are saying that the Catholic priest was correct by saying that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died? ? ?...Now that isn't the Truth, that IS sickening!!!...

What difference does it make if my son was baptized or not is what I want to know!...He couldn't understand what being baptized meant at that age and I am sure God knows that!...don't you understand that!?!...

[ex cathedra]

Quote from Hehealedme:

I do not reject God's Word about baptism...lets be logical here...how can a baby that can't even speak yet repent of his sins before he physically dies at 20 days old?...

That Catholic priest flat out told me that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died........that is sickening!...




Quote from ex-cathedra:

Truth can be sickning .
im glad you had your baby baptized.

So according to your response, you are saying that the Catholic priest was correct by saying that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died? ? ?...Now that isn't the Truth, that IS sickening!!!...

What difference does it make if my son was baptized or not is what I want to know!...He couldn't understand what being baptized meant at that age and I am sure God knows that!...don't you understand that!?!...

Matthew 11:25
 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

[Hehealedme]

Quote from ex-cathedra:

Truth can be sickning .
im glad you had your baby baptized.




Quote from Hehealedme:

So according to your response, you are saying that the Catholic priest was correct by saying that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died? ? ?...Now that isn't the Truth, that IS sickening!!!...




Quote from ex-cathedra:

Matthew 11:25
 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

You have not answered my question...

[ex cathedra]

Quote from ex-cathedra:

Truth can be sickning .
im glad you had your baby baptized.




Quote from Hehealedme:

So according to your response, you are saying that the Catholic priest was correct by saying that my son would be going to hell if he wasn't baptized before he died? ? ?...Now that isn't the Truth, that IS sickening!!!...




Quote from ex-cathedra:

Matthew 11:25
 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

You have not answered my question...

i believe he showed you how serious the matter was I think he believed Jesus.

John 3:3

 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again


Your baby was baptized and  is in heaven.

I am Jesus’ little lamb,
Ever glad at heart I am;
For my Shepherd gently guides me,
Knows my need, and well provides me,
Loves me every day the same,
Even calls me by my name.

Day by day, at home, away,
Jesus is my Staff and Stay.
When I hunger, Jesus feeds me,
Into pleasant pastures leads me;
When I thirst, He bids me go
Where the quiet waters flow.

Who so happy as I am,
Even now the Shepherd’s lamb?
And when my short life is ended,
By His angel host attended,
He shall fold me to His breast,
There within His arms to rest.




http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/i/a/iajllamb.htm

[Hehealedme]

Quote from ex-cathedra:

i believe he showed you how serious the matter was I think he believed Jesus.

John 3:3

 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again

Wow, my son must have been very special in deed!...I had him baptized therefore it means, according to that priest and to you since I had him baptized before he died at 20 days old that he understood what being born again meant at that very young age!...wow!...simply amazing!...Good thing I had my son baptized before he died, otherwise he would have gone to hell!...

And to think that I finally got to repent and believe in God's Word only in 2004!....that is almost five years ago!...I was 46 years old at the time!...I sure was slow and hardheaded wasn't I!...

Ok, I give up...you win...you are right and I was wrong...consider me out of this thread for good...goodbye...

[DCR]

about us believing scripture rather than our logic.

the place of human logic, human reason , is exactly what divides Lutherans from the rest of Christianity.


Lutherans place God's word over  human logic.


 non Lutheran Christians  place human logic over  Gods word .

And, considering that God's word never speaks of infant baptism, it appears that you're speaking from a tradition and using your own human reason to defend it.  Baptism, in Scripture, is tied to conversion and repentance.  And, it was something that was submitted to willingly.  Show me an infant who confesses faith in Christ and repents of its sins, and then we'll talk about whether the infant should be baptized.

[extranos]

Show me an infant who confesses faith in Christ and repents of its sins, and then we'll talk about whether the infant should be baptized.

DCR,
Better than me showing you an infant who believes, please allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you.
Luke 18:
15People were also bringing babies (the Greek word is brephe, which means infants) to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Now we know that nobody can enter into the kingdom of God unless he has been born again, so if the kingdom of God contains these infants, then it is only logical that these infants are believers.  We know that God cannot lie, so we can fully trust what He has told us.  So, if an infant can believe, and can join the kingdom of God, who are we to say they cannot be baptised?

You, DCR, insist on a level of proof that even God does not insist upon.  You insist upon a spoken confession of faith, but God never insists upon this to accept the infant into His kingdom.  Then again, perhaps God can communicate with the soul of a human in ways that go above and beyond the spoken words of human-to-human speech?

If God's Word says that infants can believe, then it is good enough for me.  I don't really need to hear that another human agrees with it or not, to be honest, DCR.  However, I hope you seriously consider what the Spirit has said to us.

HeHealedMe,
I am very sorry for your loss.  I cannot imagine the sorrow you must have felt and surely feel to this day.  The Bible does not speak to your situation directly.  There is no cause for a Christian pastor or priest to insist that an unbaptized baby will go to Hell.  The Catholic priest, I believe, overstepped his bounds.  All humans are conceived in sin (Psalm 51), but, as noted above, infants can also have faith.  I think the proper interpretation is to say that we leave our dead infants in the hands of a God who loved us enough to send His only Son to take our punishment, and we leave it at that.  God is merciful and just and quick to forgive.

Blessings!
Extranos

[DCR]

Show me an infant who confesses faith in Christ and repents of its sins, and then we'll talk about whether the infant should be baptized.

DCR,
Better than me showing you an infant who believes, please allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you.

And, I assume that it would be a foregone conclusion in your mind that if I truly did "allow the Holy Spirit to speak to" me, then I would obviously come around to agree with you on this issue. 

Well, I heard the Holy Spirit there in Luke 18.  Yet, I don't come to the same conclusions as you.

Luke 18:
15People were also bringing babies (the Greek word is brephe, which means infants) to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

For one thing, nothing is said about what these children were thinking.  All we're told is that these children were being brought to Jesus... apparently so He would bless them.  But, I don't know what they believed... or even understood for that matter.  That doesn't appear to be addressed.  If they were recently born infants, then they probably didn't understand or believe a whole lot.  In His statement here, it appears that Jesus is using these children as an example of innocence, without all the spiritual baggage that adults acquire in time.  So, to enter the kingdom of God, we must cast aside the things that are a spiritual hindrance to us and strive to become like little children.  That's what the Holy Spirit teaches me here.

Now we know that nobody can enter into the kingdom of God unless he has been born again, so if the kingdom of God contains these infants, then it is only logical that these infants are believers.  We know that God cannot lie, so we can fully trust what He has told us.  So, if an infant can believe, and can join the kingdom of God, who are we to say they cannot be baptised?

This line of reasoning is based on your own conclusions and assumptions.  I have no doubt that it all fits and follows in your way thinking.  But, to me, it's a bit of a stretch.

You, DCR, insist on a level of proof that even God does not insist upon.  You insist upon a spoken confession of faith, but God never insists upon this to accept the infant into His kingdom.

Mmm... I wouldn't be so sure about that... especially in light of passages such as Romans 10:9-10.  But, God will save anyone He so chooses to save or add to His kingdom.

Then again, perhaps God can communicate with the soul of a human in ways that go above and beyond the spoken words of human-to-human speech?

Who knows?  That contemplation certainly doesn't prove anything in the discussion one way or the other though.

If God's Word says that infants can believe, then it is good enough for me.  I don't really need to hear that another human agrees with it or not, to be honest, DCR.  However, I hope you seriously consider what the Spirit has said to us.

That infants can believe is only your conclusion.  That premise isn't stated in the passage you quoted above.  Perhaps, "it is only logical" by the way you see it.  But, it is simply not a conclusion I draw from what the passages you cite actually say.