Author Topic: Subject . Role Of Women In The Church  (Read 1285 times)

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ex cathedra

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Subject . Role Of Women In The Church
« on: Sat Jun 13, 2009 - 23:26:05 »



 newest Subject  on wels .net questions and answers . Role Of Women In The Church

Q: Woman are not to  even vote --- please review for me where in the Bible does this doctrine originate?

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?process&procID=1518&cuQA_qaID=1&cuTopic_topicID=30&cuItem_itemID=27102

jjeanniton

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Re: Subject . Role Of Women In The Church
« Reply #1 on: Fri Apr 20, 2018 - 20:32:09 »
I have read David Jay Webber's Scriptural defense of the classical Confessional Lutheran position AGAINST the very NOTION of women as pastors and "clerics", and I too agree that the very idea of so-called Women's Ordination is against the Law of Nature and Nature's God.

I have the following case of conscience for you: Since 1 Corinthians 14:34/35 in its straightforward face-value reading strictly forbids women in formal worship services from doing the very act which in the NT Greek is labelled as LALEIN, and which can only be translated into English as SPEAK, I am wondering:

Since the Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England in its public services appoints certain "devotional responses" (for lack of a better word to describe it) to be said in an audible voice by candidates for baptism, confirmation, coronation, etc., are these "devotional responses" an act of LALEIN in the sense defined by the Apostle?

Example #1: in the Book of Common Prayer – as amended by the Westminster Divines in 1661– in its section entitled The Public Baptism of Adults, has this part: 

Quote
The Minister will then say to the Persons to be baptized, and each one answer as followeth:

DOST thou renounce the devil and all his works, the vain pomp and glory of the world, with all covetous desires of the same, and the sinful desires of the flesh, so that thou wilt not follow, nor be led by them?

Answer: I renounce them all; and, by God's help, will endeavor not to follow, nor be led by them. 

Question: Dost thou believe all the Articles of the Christian Faith, as contained in the Apostles’ Creed?

Answer: I so believe.

Question: Wilt thou be baptized in this Faith?
 
Answer: That is my desire.
 
Question: Wilt thou then obediently keep God's holy will and commandments, and walk in the same all the days of thy life?

Answer: I will, by God's help.


And every woman candidate for baptism (even if she were the only one) is usually expected to give all of these answers in a PUBLICLY audible voice in the WHOLE congregation, using the normal inflections of the voice! So, was that an act of LALEIN in the sense defined by the Apostle?

Example #2: Book of Common Prayer, 1662, Rubric for Public Adult Baptism:

https://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/baptism/riper.html:

Quote
Then shall the Priest demand of each of the persons to be baptized, severally [N.B.: not all the baptizands simultaneously, but each one at a time, the Elder, Pastor, or other clergyman putting the given question in the order in which it appears in the Rubric, then the baptizand giving the immediately following prescribed answer, then the clergyman asking the next question to the SAME baptizand, and the SAME baptizand giving the prescribed answer thereto, etc. until all the questions and answers have been used up, and then on to the next baptizand, and continuing until all the baptizands have been used up], these Questions following:

Question

DOST thou renounce the devil and all his works, the vain pomp and glory of the world, with all covetous desires of the same, and the carnal desires of the flesh, so that thou wilt not follow, nor be led by them?

    Answer [N.B.: these answers were not intended by this Rubric to be given by all the candidates simultaneously, but once at a time: therefore any woman candidate for baptism is EXPECTED to give these answers in an Audible Voice without any other persons voice publicly & audibly conjoining their voice to hers]. I renounce them all.

Question

DOST thou believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth?
    And in Jesus Christ his only-begotten Son our Lord? And that he was conceived by the Holy Ghost; born of the Virgin Mary; that he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; that he went down into hell, and also did rise again the third day; that he ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; and from thence shall come again at the end of the world, to judge the quick and the dead?
    And dost thou believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Catholick Church; the Communion of Saints; the Remission of sins; the Resurrection of the flesh; and everlasting life after death?

    Answer. All this I stedfastly believe.

Question

WILT thou be baptized in this faith?

    Answer. That is my desire.

Question

WILT thou then obediently keep God's holy will and commandments, and walk in the same all the days of thy life?

    Answer. I will endeavour so to do, God being my helper.


Example #3: The Coronation Service. Read http://www.oremus.org/liturgy/coronation/cor1953b.html to see the rubric for yourself. The QUEEN herself DID knowingly and willingly make the audible responses as duly prescribed in the Book of Common Prayer. And so, was her act of reciting these things an act of LALEIN in the sense defined by the Apostle?

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Subject . Role Of Women In The Church
« Reply #2 on: Sat Apr 21, 2018 - 01:07:48 »
Assuming 1 Cor. 14:34-35 are genuine -- a topic of a bit of debate among NT textual critics -- they cannot survive a prima facie reading, as they directly contradict the presupposition of what Paul wrote three chapters earlier, in 11:5.