GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.  (Read 8315 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline highrigger

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Manna: 26
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 11:08:53 AM »
Quote
Morality IS objective because God makes it so, whether we like it or not.  Using a chemical that directly causes an abortion is objectively evil and a sin.  It is possible to teach people what is sin AND to teach God's love and mercy.  Does God's love and mercy give us a free pass to murder unborn children (no matter what stage of development we call them, no matter what the means)?  What do you think?  Does the UMC teach moral relativism?  Perhaps the errors go much deeper than allowing "reproductive choice".

Catholica,

No. The Methodist Church does not teach moral relativism. We teach Gods Law, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." A baby is a mothers closest neighbor and a fetus is a baby.

But we do not teach as the pharisees did, utilizing guilt, fear and religious intimidation to get people to do what we want them to do. We offer counciling for all moral issues.

The primary message of our church is Gods love and forgiveness, which is the Gospel Message. It is Good News because it teaches Gods love for us regardless of our failings. We do not give anyone a pass. God gives the passes when he forgives our debts. That is what we rely upon.  JohnR

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 11:08:53 AM »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - in a way, yes.
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 12:43:34 PM »
people can tell people not to use the pill all they want, for all the good it does.  how many catholics practice birth control in spite of what Rome tells them they should or should not do?  how many priests continue to give communion to those catholics who practice birth control?  same can be said for the UMC or the Baptists or any other church.  telling people "not to" doesn't accomplish anything, but, hey, it does provide them with "cover" I supose......................


One cannot change God's moral Law based upon whether people choose to obey it or not.  God gave his ten commandments.  Should we choose not to proclaim them simply because, in your opinion, it "doesn't accomplish anything".

If a single person learns the truth about the birth control pill, and a single baby is not aborted because of it, that is an infinite gain, because that is the value of a human being.

The problem is when one tries to stand on a "moral higher ground" by saying "my church preaches against such" when sitting next to them are rows of people who don't bother to listen....................it's the thingy with the tree in the eye idea.  Before assuming one's church is on the moral high ground, one should be assured that their church is actually practicing what is preached.  I don't care what the name of the church is, GET YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER before proclaiming your moral high ground.

If your church is not PRACTICING the Ten Commandments, then work on that first before telling others of how great you are. 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - in a way, yes.
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 12:43:34 PM »

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4641
  • Manna: 157
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - in a way, yes.
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 03:52:37 PM »
people can tell people not to use the pill all they want, for all the good it does.  how many catholics practice birth control in spite of what Rome tells them they should or should not do?  how many priests continue to give communion to those catholics who practice birth control?  same can be said for the UMC or the Baptists or any other church.  telling people "not to" doesn't accomplish anything, but, hey, it does provide them with "cover" I supose......................


One cannot change God's moral Law based upon whether people choose to obey it or not.  God gave his ten commandments.  Should we choose not to proclaim them simply because, in your opinion, it "doesn't accomplish anything".

If a single person learns the truth about the birth control pill, and a single baby is not aborted because of it, that is an infinite gain, because that is the value of a human being.

The problem is when one tries to stand on a "moral higher ground" by saying "my church preaches against such" when sitting next to them are rows of people who don't bother to listen....................it's the thingy with the tree in the eye idea.  Before assuming one's church is on the moral high ground, one should be assured that their church is actually practicing what is preached.  I don't care what the name of the church is, GET YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER before proclaiming your moral high ground.

If your church is not PRACTICING the Ten Commandments, then work on that first before telling others of how great you are. 

The question is not Catholic teaching vs. Methodist teaching, as if I were trying to imply a moral higher ground.  The point is that there is an objective truth here, that the pill causes abortions, and there are many, many denominations who will not denounce pill use.

The idea, however, that I shouldn't preach against another Church's practice unless everyone in my Church is practicing it is bunk, however.  I have already removed the log from my eye, which allows me to preach about the birth control issue to any person who is using it.  That is irrelevant however.  The teaching of the Catholic Church regarding pill use is in line with God's will.  Any spinning it as if it is "preaching condemnation" or "religious intimidation" is not only a false representation of how the Catholic Church deals with the issue, but is a moot point intended to deflect the issue at hand, which is that denominations are not condemning the objective moral evil, which is that the birth control pill can cause abortion, and thus takes another human life.

I'm surprised that there is so much opposition to what I am saying in Christian circles.  To me this morality is obvious, and such opposition, in my opinion, stems from idolatry.  People are putting their sexual desires before their fidelity to God, and that is idolatry.

Offline highrigger

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Manna: 26
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 04:13:48 PM »
Quote
The question is not Catholic teaching vs. Methodist teaching, as if I were trying to imply a moral higher ground.  The point is that there is an objective truth here, that the pill causes abortions, and there are many, many denominations who will not denounce pill use.

The idea, however, that I shouldn't preach against another Church's practice unless everyone in my Church is practicing it is bunk, however.  I have already removed the log from my eye, which allows me to preach about the birth control issue to any person who is using it.  That is irrelevant however.  The teaching of the Catholic Church regarding pill use is in line with God's will.  Any spinning it as if it is "preaching condemnation" or "religious intimidation" is not only a false representation of how the Catholic Church deals with the issue, but is a moot point intended to deflect the issue at hand, which is that denominations are not condemning the objective moral evil, which is that the birth control pill can cause abortion, and thus takes another human life.

I'm surprised that there is so much opposition to what I am saying in Christian circles.  To me this morality is obvious, and such opposition, in my opinion, stems from idolatry.  People are putting their sexual desires before their fidelity to God, and that is idolatry.

Catholica,

Like any medicine we use we should investigate the possible side effects. I certainly would not encourage such a pill if one is unsure if they are pregnant or not. I suspect however you would condemn pill usage even if there were no way it could cause an abortion.

So I am not opposing what you are saying. I would hope people take it into account when they make those decisions. But my church is not going to set out edicts for the reason you gave. In fact we are not into the edict business anyway. We are in the business to preach Gods love and forgiveness... The Gospel message. It has nothing to do with sexual desires.

I have no problem in a church giving advice on these subjects as long as they do not frighten and intimidate and use shame and guilt to get their way. That is totally opposite to what Jesus taught who said He came not to Judge but to save. That should be the same duty of a church. Peace. JohnR

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 04:13:48 PM »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2011, 04:29:07 AM »
Catholica said:

Science has proven that the human life begins at conception.  Once the egg is fertilized, all the DNA material that makes up what our body fully is becomes present in a zygote, and that is when life begins.  The zygote, a living human life, will implant under normal situations.  The pill will cause the zygote to artificially not be able to implant, but rather flush it out, destroying a human life.
------------------------

While I may personally agree with when life begins, I don't see that Science has proven this as an "exact stated fact."  Given the number of debats on the subject in the world of Science and the fact that on many occasions the Courts have been far less supportive of this statement, I'm not sure one can state firmly that Science has proven anything. 

As for the higher moral ground concept.  The reading of your comments surely brought that to mind to me.  If it was not your intent, then good, however all one has to go by when reading comments is how they view the comment and what it potrays to them.  It's all well and good for a Church to denounce use of the pill or other forms of birth control and they should if they feel led to do so.  However, to criticize other Churches is not the best idea (IMO) unless they have practiced their own preaching.  It is not "bunk" to expect one to live their preaching/teaching, and I am not speaking of you personally, but the entier Catholic Church.  I see valid points in both your comments and in the comments of Highrigger and believe you both are seeking the will of God to do the right thing.  I just don't see the need to appear to be beating up on the Methodists because they do not universally denounce the use of the pill and justifying this by saying that the Catholic Church does.  By practice what you preach I mean that IMO if the Catholic Church (or any other church for that matter) is going to universally denounce the use of the pill, then should it come to the attention of the Church leaders that someone in their midst is not obeying their preaching/teaching, then that person should be confronted and questioned and a determination should be made if they will be allowed to remain in the Church.  In any case, these people should not be allowed to celebrate Communion or partake of other Holy Rites until they come into line with the teachings of
the Church.  In our congregation, if we are aware that a person is not living a christian life, we do not allow them to celebrate Communion period.  My point about "get your own house in order" before calling on other churches to do so is simply that the Catholic Church needs to enforce their edicts or else what purpose do they serve?

I'm not knocking the Catholic Church here, because I am personally glad that their leadership has been out front on the abortion issue however, at times, it appears to me that their position has been more lip service than committed action.  They are not alone on this for sure.  The Baptists, Methodists, whoever have not been proactive enough in this area in my opinion.  If the Church would UNITE behind this movement and do more than pay lipservice to the issue of abortion (during election cycles), then, possibly we would see a drastic change in the laws concerning abortion.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2011, 04:29:07 AM »



Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4641
  • Manna: 157
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2011, 06:05:34 AM »
Quote
The question is not Catholic teaching vs. Methodist teaching, as if I were trying to imply a moral higher ground.  The point is that there is an objective truth here, that the pill causes abortions, and there are many, many denominations who will not denounce pill use.

The idea, however, that I shouldn't preach against another Church's practice unless everyone in my Church is practicing it is bunk, however.  I have already removed the log from my eye, which allows me to preach about the birth control issue to any person who is using it.  That is irrelevant however.  The teaching of the Catholic Church regarding pill use is in line with God's will.  Any spinning it as if it is "preaching condemnation" or "religious intimidation" is not only a false representation of how the Catholic Church deals with the issue, but is a moot point intended to deflect the issue at hand, which is that denominations are not condemning the objective moral evil, which is that the birth control pill can cause abortion, and thus takes another human life.

I'm surprised that there is so much opposition to what I am saying in Christian circles.  To me this morality is obvious, and such opposition, in my opinion, stems from idolatry.  People are putting their sexual desires before their fidelity to God, and that is idolatry.


Catholica,

Like any medicine we use we should investigate the possible side effects. I certainly would not encourage such a pill if one is unsure if they are pregnant or not. I suspect however you would condemn pill usage even if there were no way it could cause an abortion.

So I am not opposing what you are saying. I would hope people take it into account when they make those decisions. But my church is not going to set out edicts for the reason you gave. In fact we are not into the edict business anyway. We are in the business to preach Gods love and forgiveness... The Gospel message. It has nothing to do with sexual desires.

I have no problem in a church giving advice on these subjects as long as they do not frighten and intimidate and use shame and guilt to get their way. That is totally opposite to what Jesus taught who said He came not to Judge but to save. That should be the same duty of a church. Peace. JohnR


John, perhaps you don't realize exactly how the pill works, and how it was designed to work.  The purpose of the pill is to keep a person from "getting pregnant" here are the four ways that it does that.  From: http://www.pfli.org/faq_oc.html (reworded here slightly to make more sense to mixed audiences of men and women)

Quote
Q. How does the pill really work?

A. There are four ways the pill acts to stop sperm reaching an egg (ovum). First, the hormones in the pill try to stop an ovum being released from the ovary each month. This is known as the suppression of ovulation. Research has shown that neither the progesterone-only pill nor the combined progesterone-oestrogen formulations always stop ovulation.

Second, all formulations of the pill cause changes to the cervical mucus that the body produces. The cervical mucus may become thicker and more difficult for sperm to fertilize an ovum.

Third, all formulations of the pill cause changes to the lining of the womb (properly known as the endometrium). Under the influence of the chemicals in the pill, the lining of the womb doesn’t grow to the proper thickness. You will notice that  periods are lighter when the pill is being used. This is because the lining of the womb has not developed properly. But this change also means that the womb is not in the right stage of development to allow a fertilized egg to attach properly (this attachment process is known as implantation). This action of the pill will be discussed again in this booklet.

Fourth, the pill causes changes to the movement of the Fallopian tubes. This effect may reduce the possibility of the ovum being fertilised.

It is very important for you to understand that none of these ways the pill works is completely reliable. Ovulation is not always stopped, cervical mucus does not always stop the movement of sperm the damage to the lining of the womb sometimes allows for implantation to occur, and Fallopian tube activity does not always stop sperm and ovum from joining to create a new human person.


The third way is the step that can cause the abortion.  When a pill is working as it was designed to work, it will cause abortions. 

Quote
Q. I have heard some people say the pill has an abortifacient capacity. What does this word mean, and is it really true anyway?

A. Before answering this question it is very important that we all have a correct understanding of the key biological terms related to pregnancy. The following definitions have been accept by major medical texts for decades.

'Conception' refers to the moment at which the sperm penetrates and fertilises the ovum to form a viable zygote. It does not refer to the process of implantation of the newly created human embryo, which is a separate event, occurring about 7-8 day’s after conception. A woman is pregnant because conception has occurred, not because implantation has occurred. This distinction is important.

At the precise and unique moment of conception, a woman is 'pregnant' with "a new individual ". This is an accurate and informed medical description. It is the same terminology used by Prof. John Dwyer, pre-eminent Australian AIDS expert and researcher, who has described the moment that the sperm enters the ovum as the creation of a "new and unique individual". Well known medical writer, Professor Derek Llewellyn-Jones, author of Everywoman, has also written that when the male genetic material from the sperm joins with the female genetic material in the ovum, " a new individual is formed".

To stop conception occurring, that is, to stop sperm and ovum joining, is contraception. Condoms, diaphragms, spermicides, vasectomy and tubal ligation are accurately described as methods of contraception. Obviously any drug or device used after conception has occurred cannot be termed a contraceptive.

The correct term to describe any interference with the pregnancy after conception has occurred is ‘abortifacient’. This is the precise biological description for any drug or device that acts to end a pregnancy once it has begun at conception.

You might be interested to know that many major medical dictionaries have definitions of ‘conception’, ‘pregnancy’ and ‘contraception’ that are the same as those listed above.

It is medically dishonest to break from these definitions. And yet, this is precisely what some scientists have recently started to do. They seek to define pregnancy as beginning with implantation, not fertilization. But as I mentioned ealier, implantation occurs 7-8 days after the new human person has come into existence. The pregnancy, and the new human person, are already many days old by the time implantation has occurred.

Therefore, what these scientists are trying to doing is get people to think that abortifacient drugs such as the pill are really just contraceptive drugs. Do you see the clever shift in definitions these scientists are trying to make? Redefine when a pregnancy and new human life begins, and you redefine the key characteristic of the drug – how it works!

Obviously many people object to abortifacient drugs because they can cause a loss of human life. Not so many people object to methods of contraception (condoms, diaphrams etc), because these methods prevent new human life being created. Hence, if scientists succeed in convincing people that human life begins after implantation, eventually most people will have no objection to the pill. They will have been tricked into believing that human life had not begun when the pill exerted its anti-implantation effect.


The pill does not work as a simple contraceptive, because part of what it does ends a life after conception, and that makes it an abortifacient, that is, a drug that causes a human life to be terminated.

Quote
Q. So how do you prove that the pill acts as an abortifacient?

A. The answer to this question can be found by comparing the rate of break-through ovulation and the detected pregnancy rate. The ovulation rate has been reported to be about 27 ovulations in 100 women using the pill for one year. But the detected pregnancy rate is much lower at around 4 pregnancies per 100 women using the pill for one year.

As you can see, there is a big difference between the number of women who ovulate (27) and the number of detected pregnancies (4). What has happened within the woman’s body to reduce the high ovulation rate to such a low number of detected pregnancies? I suggest that one answer to this important question is that pregnancies have begun, because ovulation and fertilization have occurred, but some of these pregnancies are terminated because implantation cannot take place. The pill has damaged the lining of the womb, stopping implantation.


Are you starting to see, John?  The pill can and does cause a person who has been conceived to be aborted.  It is not a side effect, it is by design.  The purpose of the pill is to avoid pregnancy.  People believe they are using it to avoid pregnancy, but they don't understand (or disregard) the science behind it.  The pill does not only work to try to stop conception, it will also keep a conceived baby from being implanted, killing it.

I believe that it is a duty of every Christian denomination to make the distinction between what is sinful and what is not sinful.  How each one goes about it, that is up to them.  But as Christians we want to avoid sinning, so we need to know what sinning is.  Bottom line, the contraceptive pill can and often does kill a baby.  Killing is a sin.  Thus we cannot in good conscience EVER use the contraceptive pill.  It is something that we must repent of and cease.  One cannot repent from a sin if they plan on continuing to sin.  To repent of (unknowingly) killing their babies via the pill, the use of the pill must stop.

Maybe you can be an agent of change in the Methodist church.  They may not know the science behind the pill.  I'm sure you agree that if one of the designed properties of the pill kills a baby, that its use should be stopped.  I believe that the Methodist Church intends to be against abortion.  Here is another form that they should be against.  Are you ready to stand up for what is right?

Offline highrigger

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Manna: 26
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2011, 04:18:10 PM »
Quote
Are you starting to see, John?  The pill can and does cause a person who has been conceived to be aborted.  It is not a side effect, it is by design.  The purpose of the pill is to avoid pregnancy.  People believe they are using it to avoid pregnancy, but they don't understand (or disregard) the science behind it.  The pill does not only work to try to stop conception, it will also keep a conceived baby from being implanted, killing it.

I believe that it is a duty of every Christian denomination to make the distinction between what is sinful and what is not sinful.  How each one goes about it, that is up to them.  But as Christians we want to avoid sinning, so we need to know what sinning is.  Bottom line, the contraceptive pill can and often does kill a baby.  Killing is a sin.  Thus we cannot in good conscience EVER use the contraceptive pill.  It is something that we must repent of and cease.  One cannot repent from a sin if they plan on continuing to sin.  To repent of (unknowingly) killing their babies via the pill, the use of the pill must stop.

Maybe you can be an agent of change in the Methodist church.  They may not know the science behind the pill.  I'm sure you agree that if one of the designed properties of the pill kills a baby, that its use should be stopped.  I believe that the Methodist Church intends to be against abortion.  Here is another form that they should be against.  Are you ready to stand up for what is right?

Catholica,

I agree it is wrong to abort a baby at any stage if caused by a pill or anything else. Peace. John

Offline fcadcock

  • Loving
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
  • Manna: 26
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2011, 01:50:05 AM »
Catholica,

What are your opinions on other forms of birth control?  Are Condoms alright?  How about is is sinful to pull out a trojan if you and your wife aren't financially able to give a baby a good home? 

Shall we take a look at more of your faith's questionable belifs?  Where in the bible is purgatory?  I can't find it in mine...
How about confession to a priest as a requirement for forgiveness, praying to Mary, bowing to images of the saints (idols?), indulgences?  Where are any of these things?

How dare you come into the "Methodist" section of this site and tell us how we are wrong.  Did you not read the top post where it said "This forum is for Methodists to fellowship and have discussions specific to their denomination." 

To end this topic, Yes, we all agree abortion is wrong.  No, we do not all agree that contraceptives and family planning are wrong.  Yes, we have aspects of our faith that you disagree with.  And yes, there are issues with the catholic faith which we have issues with.  I do believe you can find a longer, more complete listing of these issues nailed to the door of your churche in Whittenburg, Germany.  A nice man named Martin Luther left them there for y'all to look over nearly 500 years ago...

Offline highrigger

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Manna: 26
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2011, 09:04:41 AM »
Quote
How dare you come into the "Methodist" section of this site and tell us how we are wrong.  Did you not read the top post where it said "This forum is for Methodists to fellowship and have discussions specific to their denomination." 

fdcacock,

I would disagree here. I see nothing wrong with some criticism if done in a civil manner. Actually nothing wrong was pointed out about us Methodists as I see it. Our church is not into edicts and highlighting the sins of others. We do not say it is a sin to miss church nor do we make up a list of sins that one must come in and confess to a pastor. We seek to preach Gods love and forgiveness to others and not control their behavior. We let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

But I do see your point. The Catholic church has so many mistakes and wrong turns on its hands,  it seems strange to us to see them criticizing others, particularly a wholesome church like ours with such a proud history - no darkside.  But that is the way they are and if they want to come discuss those issues they are welcome it seems to me. I have no problem with it. Maybe they will learn something. Peace. JohnR

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4641
  • Manna: 157
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 09:48:00 AM »
Catholica,

What are your opinions on other forms of birth control?  Are Condoms alright?  How about is is sinful to pull out a trojan if you and your wife aren't financially able to give a baby a good home? 

Hi fcadcock.  I don't have to have opinions regarding these issues.  I obey the teachings of the Catholic Church.  That being said, discussion of Catholic doctrine belongs in the Catholic forum, and certainly such a discussion is not appropriate for this thread.

Shall we take a look at more of your faith's questionable belifs?  Where in the bible is purgatory?  I can't find it in mine...
How about confession to a priest as a requirement for forgiveness, praying to Mary, bowing to images of the saints (idols?), indulgences?  Where are any of these things?

I welcome such discussions.  I enter them every day, in the Catholic forum.

How dare you come into the "Methodist" section of this site and tell us how we are wrong.  Did you not read the top post where it said "This forum is for Methodists to fellowship and have discussions specific to their denomination."

Is there something wrong with questioning your beliefs?  Why are you not questioning your own beliefs?  Do you "believe" that the birth control pill causes abortion, as science says it does?  Do you "believe" that life begins at conception, when the sperm enters the egg?  Everything in our human experience shows that it does, as does science.  If this "conception" is when life begins, then the birth control pill aborts a human life.  In other words, the birth control pill is capable of and often does kill a living human person.  If, knowing this, you continue to use the birth control pill, that is your decision, but as all sin, that is between you and God.


To end this topic, Yes, we all agree abortion is wrong.  No, we do not all agree that contraceptives and family planning are wrong.  Yes, we have aspects of our faith that you disagree with.  And yes, there are issues with the catholic faith which we have issues with.  I do believe you can find a longer, more complete listing of these issues nailed to the door of your churche in Whittenburg, Germany.  A nice man named Martin Luther left them there for y'all to look over nearly 500 years ago...

If you agree that abortion is wrong, and by "wrong" you mean objectively "sinful", then if you are using the birth control pill you must stop using it, as the birth control pill in one of the ways it was designed to "prevent" pregnancy causes an abortion of a living human life.

Offline fcadcock

  • Loving
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
  • Manna: 26
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2011, 01:22:07 AM »
...That being said, discussion of Catholic doctrine belongs in the Catholic forum, and certainly such a discussion is not appropriate for this thread.

Well played sir, well played...

Offline EasTNChik

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Manna: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Does the Methodist Church support Abortion - NO.
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2011, 08:49:07 PM »
a-mazing........ ::frown::  if we spent as much time on winning souls...... 
I have just been lurking and now I know why I don't get into muchposts ..  Salvation should be first and foremost important thing.  If as much time and effort were placed on that it would be a-mamzing what we could do together regardless of what demonomation or minor demononational issues.