Christian Forums and Message Board

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am surprised at this because the preacher who has been at Bering said the Lord led him there.

Oh well...

Nelta[/quote]

Can't God lead someone somewhere else too? I didn't know He was so limited.

IHS,
Barry

Nelta, I do disagree with you on the fact that God doesn't send anyone anywhere. And not to say that some pastors do use that line, because some do.

God has not changed and if we are willing to live for God then we will be led by the Spirit...first into the desert...then into service. The desert experience is necessary to keep us humble. Suffering is our baptism.

seekr

I agree with most of what the last 3 posters are saying. God leads, but we do not necessarily have to follow. He gives us choices. Kind of like Jonah. He refused until God put him in a place to say "yes". And in that is the catch also. He may put us in a place to change our choices.

There are a lot of abuses out there when speaking about "God said this or that". But when we truly are seeking Him and not man, as Nelta has said before, then we will find truth and recognize the counterfeit. We see a lot of the counterfeit on certain television stations and it is apparent to a lot of us. With revelations come thorns, not cameras, to keep us from becoming conceited. We can be fooled if we are seeking the spectacular and the showiness that we assume makes us look spiritual and gets us attention.

seekr

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (seekr @ Sep. 15 2003,1:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nelta, there really is a way to know the difference if it is just someone's thinking or not, as the Spirit makes us one. And not that in the flesh we cannot be fooled, because we can. I used to listen devoutely to what others said and was such a babe and thought that God just loved me less. You said that we can pray for wisdom and it is so true, because God is faithful and will answer that desire. The answered prayers need to have the right motivation, though.

I find I tell very little of what God has shown me as others would not understand it. It is mostly of a personal nature but still shows the nature of us all. God really does love us as a Father and can speak to us. The soothsayers just make the reality look bad. And some of the soothsayers believe they are really hearing from God when they have contacted the wrong spirit and are fooled by it. I have found a great article about it that I have posted the url somewhere on this board before. But we should never let those who speak falsely, keep us from believing others. The Spirit will bear witness, when we seek God.

My husband recognized the falsehood of those speaking about visions and dreams and answering eveything with "God said". He was very skeptic about any of it until God came to him in a vision and we have been changed by it. The supernatural is there as God has not changed. His law has always been love, and He uses anything and everything to bring us to the foot of the cross. It doesn't mean He speaks this way with all, but with revelations, as I have stated before, comes many thorns. And this is where willingness to die to self comes in.

seekr

seekr[/quote]
:wave:  I love these icons.  That is why I always use them.:-)

It is indeed a private (individual) matter about what God does for us.  We simply cannot go with what others say because as you said we don't know.  However, I know God works in our lives but I believe it is through our mind and body working together AND in the case of medical science He uses that gift that He gave to some in the way of talents.

Here is a for instance.  We were married for nearly nine years before we had our first child.  We wanted a baby with all our hearts but we had no money so knew we could not adopt.  My husband found a medical book that told of different doctors.  

We lived in Big Spring, Texas at the time.  The doctor he thought would be most likely to work for us was at the Dallas Baylor Hospital.  (BTW we had gone to one in B.S. also but he could do nothing and one day we saw him weaving down the sidewalk.:-))

Anyway, we went to  this dr. in Dalls.  He performed plastic surgery on my tubes.  He warned us that the operation was rather new and only about 10% were successful.  Well, we (rather I) went through  the major surgery and that mixed with prayer and our desire to do ANYTHING it took.. was successful.  I'm sure they wrote me up in the medical journals.:-)

Well to make a long story short we had three little girls all within about 4 years.

So, even though I do not believe in miracles I do believe that God helps those who help themselves....meaning going ALL the way in trying to solve a problem

Just rambling here.

Nelta

This is a passon.  I received this from Edward Fudge this morning.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]PREACHER SEARCH -- The Bering Drive Church of Christ in Houston, Texas, in which Edward is an elder, is beginning a search for a preaching minister. Bering Drive is a Bible-based, Christ-centered, grace-oriented church with a history of generosity and good works. The congregation has a team of four staff ministers besides the preacher, Sunday attendance of 175-200 and sees itself as a part of the universal church within the heritage of the Stone-Campbell "restoration movement." Male and female members alike utilize their gifts in reading Scripture, serving Communion, leading worship and expressing prayers. We are learning to share Christ with others through the Alpha program and individually. Sunday worship involves a blend of traditional hymns and liturgical forms with meaningful contemporary music and a praise team. Potential candidates are asked to send name, mailing address and telephone number to [a href=\"mailto:Edward@EdwardFudge.com\"]Edward@EdwardFudge.com[/a] to begin an introductory conversation.
[/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (JerryBrooke @ Sep. 13 2003,09:32)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nelta, remember what mothers have said for generations:

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.[/quote]
Truth is better said.  If someone says he was sent to a place by God and then he leaves, does that cause a question to arise?  Actually, God doesn't send anyone anywhere.  People go where they want to go and then blame it on God.

Of course we might say, "God giveth and God thaketh away."

Nelta

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Barry @ Sep. 13 2003,10:55)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]IHS,
Barry[/quote]
Hi Barry,

Interesting post.  

<"I am not encouraged by legalistic rants, power plays, turf wars in the kingdom, attacking fellow believers, division, harping on irrelevant issues, etc...>

Sometimes "legalistic rants" are not acceptable because some might not want to talk about commandments God intends for us to keep.

Of course, "power plays" goes against the very teaching of our Lord.  Much of that in the institutional thinking of religion.

"Turf wars?" This ofcourse is wrong because this happens when someone wants to show he is in charge of the turf.  We have lots of humming birds in our back yard who drink from our feeders.  There is always one who runs the others off because that in its mind, is its turf.  Constance turf wars between them.

"Attacking fellow believers."  We are not to attack anyone unless we attack with the sword of truth.  And even then it is the practice of fellow believers that is to be attacked and not the person him/herself.

"Harping on irrelevant issues"  This is the clincher, isn't it?  What is irrelevant to one person might be very relevant to another if the truth is being discussed.  Sometimes these "irrelevant issues" are simply sacred cows that some believe should not be touched by anyone.

I just had a few minutes here and thought I would put forth some thoughts.  Relevant ones.:-)

Nelta

about being led, and here are some other thoughts...



A lot of people are saying that God speaks to them.  I used to be one and really, this message is a little premature because i haven't been thinking about this for long.  Didn't God say, "I will write my laws on their minds and on their hearts"?  So really, we have the way now.  God speaks to our minds.  But really, can we hear our mind talk and then say, 'God said such and such'?  Somehow, we have to distinguish between what the mind says and what God has placed in our mind.  Of course, there's the overall picture, 'God actually created us and in some powerful way is doing all the work on us'.  I mean everything basically is God, since everything comes from God.

now scratch everything i said and there are passages in the bible that say, in Job, 'God speaks one way and then another, on their beds and in their ears'.  Well, God can speak to someone if Job is correct.  Also in hebrews, 'Today if you hear his voice...'.

Nelta, there really is a way to know the difference if it is just someone's thinking or not, as the Spirit makes us one. And not that in the flesh we cannot be fooled, because we can. I used to listen devoutely to what others said and was such a babe and thought that God just loved me less. You said that we can pray for wisdom and it is so true, because God is faithful and will answer that desire. The answered prayers need to have the right motivation, though.

I find I tell very little of what God has shown me as others would not understand it. It is mostly of a personal nature but still shows the nature of us all. God really does love us as a Father and can speak to us. The soothsayers just make the reality look bad. And some of the soothsayers believe they are really hearing from God when they have contacted the wrong spirit and are fooled by it. I have found a great article about it that I have posted the url somewhere on this board before. But we should never let those who speak falsely, keep us from believing others. The Spirit will bear witness, when we seek God.

My husband recognized the falsehood of those speaking about visions and dreams and answering eveything with "God said". He was very skeptic about any of it until God came to him in a vision and we have been changed by it. The supernatural is there as God has not changed. His law has always been love, and He uses anything and everything to bring us to the foot of the cross. It doesn't mean He speaks this way with all, but with revelations, as I have stated before, comes many thorns. And this is where willingness to die to self comes in.

seekr

seekr

Regarding miracles:

Just recently, I have gone through a severe financial crisis. My secular vocation is in Real Estate sales. About 2 weeks ago, I lamented my situation to another brother in Christ. I had just been rejected after applying for a cash-out refinance of my home, business was slow, and my bills were piling-up. I was not looking for financial support from the brother that I was speaking to, but just someone to listen. At the end of our conversation, I told him that I believed God could help me out, if He so chose, even though my financial hole was enormous.

The next day, I received a call from a buyer that was interested in a property that I have for sale for over $400,000. The buyer had enough cash to buy the property without getting a loan, and offered to purchase it. The Sellers accepted the Offer, and because I am the listing agent, and the selling agent, I am going to get a huge commission check in less than 2 weeks, Lord willing, when the transaction closes. Since then, I have also been blessed by being able to sell almost 2 million dollars in Real Estate, and, if all goes well, will double my income for the year in just over a month. Also, last week, another bank offered to do the refinance I had been previously denied over, and I will now be able to pay off all of my credit cards, and my back taxes.

Needless to say, God has richly blessed me. Although the windfall of financial blessings is miracle enough, I relayed this story for another reason. After the Buyer put in his Offer to purchase that $400,000 property, he asked if he could go back through with his wife, to get a final approval. On the way to that appointment, the "low fuel level" light came on in the GMC Envoy XL that I am driving. If you know vehicles, this particular one is over 6,000 pounds, and is a real gas-guzzler.

When the light came on, I was about 20 minutes away from my destination, but was running late and didn't really have the time to stop for gas. There was really no natural way that I could make it that far on that level of gas. That Sunday morning, I had just shared a message with some other Christians about Gideon, and how God uses the bleakest of situations in order to show Himself. Remembering this lesson, I told God that I believed that He could get me to my destination, and that He could get me back, without my stopping for gas. That's about 40 minutes of driving on practically no gas at all. As I said my prayer, I asked that His will be done. After finishing the prayer, the "low fuel level" light turned off, and the gas meter went up to a quarter of a tank!

Needless to say, I made it to my appointment. After finishing, and after everything turned out well, I started my drive back. I was tempted to stop and get gas, especially since I had so far yet to go, but remembered that in my prayer I had told God that I believed that He could not only get me there, but that He could get me back, too. After realizing that, my wife called me from the Burger King that I had dropped her off at, and said that she needed me to pick her up right away... I prayed to God to get me there, and proceeded driving. After another 20 minutes or so of driving, I made it to the Burger King (which, by the way, was where the gas light first came on). As I pulled in to the parking spot, and began thanking God... as the car came to a stop, the "low level fuel" light came back on. I smiled, knowing that God was just letting me know, again, what had really just happened... And who it was that was responsible.

Regarding miracles:

Yes... God still works them today.

Nelta said

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Scripture tells us they were for proving who Jesus and the apostles were...that they had power to confirm the word.  [/quote]

Where in Scripture, exactly, are we told that the sole purpose of miracles was for indentity confirmation?  I can't find it anywhere.

I DO see that Jesus' primary motivation for performing miracles was His compassion.  He healed the sick (Matthew 14:14); fed 4000 people (Matthew 15:32); healed the blind (Matthew 20:34); and cleansed lepers (Mark 1:41) because of His compassion.

I heartily agree that the word "miracle" is overused, and that not everything that is called a miracle is really a miracle.  However, to deny the miraculous because evil remains in the world, or because it doesn't come in a box that's acceptable to us is...well that's essentially what the religious leaders of Jesus' time did in the face of the miracles they witnessed.

OldDad

While confirmation was one of the purposes of the "signs" - as you point out in Mark 16:20 - nowhere are we taught or even led to expect that confirmation was the sole purpose of the miraculous.

A couple of dozen years later, Paul will recognize that "the effecting of miracles" was one of the manifestations of the Spirit given to some members of the Body for "the common good" of all.  [See 1 Corinthians 12:4-11].

As to the issue of why miracles are "iffy" [fun word! :D ]...My short answer is two-fold: I don't know, and we are straying into a discussion of the sovereignty of God.

I do know Jesus did not do "many miracles" in places where there was unbelief, and sometimes things happen or don't happen for a greater purpose, as in the death and subsequent raising of Lazarus.

I have personal, first hand knowledge of miraculous occurences, which I rarely if ever share because unbelieving Christians think I'm a) deluded,  b) a mental case,  or c) a liar.  The truth is the record of church history, contrary to what many of us were led to believe, is full of accounts of the miraculous after the time of the apostles and those on which they laid their hands.  I recommend John Wimber's book Power Evangelism solely for the appendix which addresses the miraculous in church history.

OldDad

The thing is also, Nelta, we cannot make harsh stances over what we THINK scripture is saying. Isn't that part of what you are fighting for when you teach others about religion as opposed to relationship?

I have seen the miraculous and I cannot provide documentation for anyone, nor would I desire to do so. Faith is believing what we cannot see. The intangible has in some ways become the tangible for me. If it gets into a debate, only on each person's interpretation, then we get nowhere. This is when I choose not to debate anymore. My own interpretations are flawed and always will be. What I do share, are things that God has spoken to me. I may share a portion of the miracles I've seen, but mostly ponder them myself. If I only have part, as so much of it is a process, then I share that. I know, as I have said before, that there are many things I cannot share, as Old Dad stated also, because of UNbelieving Christians. Do we really believe just what we see? Blessed are those who believe without the tangible proof. It truly comes down to God. The word just points the way for your relationship to Him.

seekr

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (James Rondon @ Sep. 21 2003,3:23)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nelta.

I have been thanking God for the last few weeks over the help that I have been given financially... Have I been wrong to pray such a prayer? From your analysis, either my God is really "coincidence" or "chance", or I am thanking the actual Almighty for something that He had no hand in doing. What exactly does God do, Nelta?

Do you pray? If so, why? If God no longer does anything... remember, He is not a "respecter of persons" (a misuse of this characteristic, by the way)... why pray at all? If we ask Him for something, how could He answer us? If He did, He would be "respecting persons"... Wouldn't He?

From all of your past discussions, I assume, Nelta, that you were once involved in the Institutional Church... I was. I had to alter my thinking, and look at the word of God afresh, in order to see that things were not as they should be. I tested many of my positions, and saw the error of their ends. The old addage, "that which proves too much, proves nothing" applied in many instances. Regarding your understanding of the miraculous, I think that you should do some serious rethinking. The error of its ends are more than evident.[/quote]
James, you may be right.  I will think and study on these things.  I know God will not help those who do not believe He will help.  BTW I do believe God works through His children.  Here is another example:

My sister was having a hard time financially.  I often sent her help.  One day I "out of the blue"  I decided to send her 100.00.  She told her family as she opened the envelope, "there will be money in here."  There was. She now had enough to buy her daughter school clothes.  

So you all might be right and I....wrong.  

Nelta

moving this topic to ministry openings.