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fanuvmxpx
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« on: June 28, 2009, 10:27:10 PM »
For those who do not know, Pope Benedict has already publically said that protestants are not true christians and will not inherit salvation outside the catholic church:

I just found another interesting article, that says the Catholics believe they have the bones of Paul the Apostle, and that he was catholic.

Pope finds St Paul's bones

I wonder if this will support their case that we're all psychos?
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larry2
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 02:09:40 AM »

fanuvmxpx  - For those who do not know, Pope Benedict has already publically said that protestants are not true Christians and will not inherit salvation outside the catholic church:

larry2 - For your information, this is not some new thing they have come up with, because the following information is available in their Catholic Dictionary. They're not ashamed of it, and it has been an axiom of theirs as long as I can remember. In other words, unless you straighten up and believe them, you're going to hell; no if's, and's, or but's about it. Is It Not Written?   We're not worthy!

Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.   The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.   All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.   The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith.

In Jesus' name - larry2
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 02:09:40 AM »
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honeyant
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 09:41:28 AM »

I'm sure God will decide who is going to heaven by the purity of their soul, Christian life, and compassion.

He will not care about all his children's silly doctrinal squabbles!    Smile
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 09:41:28 AM »
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James.
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2009, 10:11:29 AM »
1. Other than that it involves the Catholic church and the pope what connection are your drawing to the story, and how does finding bones of a man from the 1st century (they don't have dna, so proving it's not just any ol' 1st century man is going to prove impossible...can't believe MSNBC didn't point that out) declare protestants anything much less psycho? 

2. The Catholic stance on "separated brethren" is not what you claim.  The pope has said that non-Catholic churches are not proper churches, lacking apostolic succession.  But even that doesn't mean what you've implied it does.  That's not the same as saying "protestants are not true christians and will not inherit salvation."  In fact, this is what the Vatican (post Vatican II) has said:

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church." "Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio" (1964)

It's a tad bit more complicated than the reductionist claim that "protestants go to hell."
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 12:44:28 PM »
Fortunately, my faith and salvation are not hinged on what the pope says or even thinks. He is just a sinful man in need of salvation like everyone else. My assurance of forgiveness comes from Jesus Christ and not the pope.
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 05:22:24 PM »
Well i don't believe the pope is saved. so there!
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 05:22:24 PM »
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fanuvmxpx
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2009, 07:24:21 PM »
Quote from: James. on June 29, 2009, 10:11:29 AM
It's a tad bit more complicated than the reductionist claim that "protestants go to hell."

I wish it were so, but Pope Benedict (who removed the Catholic church from the governing powers of state) has publicly declared that Christians will not go to heaven, here is the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

"It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”

No means of salvation = no christians are saved.
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2009, 07:28:59 PM »
Quote from: fanuvmxpx on June 29, 2009, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: James. on June 29, 2009, 10:11:29 AM
It's a tad bit more complicated than the reductionist claim that "protestants go to hell."

I wish it were so, but Pope Benedict (who removed the Catholic church from the governing powers of state) has publicly declared that Christians will not go to heaven, here is the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

"It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”

No means of salvation = no christians are saved.


And I suppose the rest of us are to believe the Pope has a say in it? My ggodnes, from a Church system that worships idols, Mary and any number of thing that arent Biblical??
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fanuvmxpx
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2009, 07:45:52 PM »
Quote from: Mickey2 on June 29, 2009, 07:28:59 PM
And I suppose the rest of us are to believe the Pope has a say in it? My ggodnes, from a Church system that worships idols, Mary and any number of thing that arent Biblical??

the pope is the supposed spokesperson for God. he ratifies & canonizes their laws. i don't know how else to approach it.
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James.
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Hi did-dly ho there, neighborino!

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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2009, 07:53:41 PM »
Quote from: fanuvmxpx on June 29, 2009, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: James. on June 29, 2009, 10:11:29 AM
It's a tad bit more complicated than the reductionist claim that "protestants go to hell."

I wish it were so, but Pope Benedict (who removed the Catholic church from the governing powers of state) has publicly declared that Christians will not go to heaven, here is the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

"It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”

No means of salvation = no christians are saved.
Quoting the document itself, not an MSNBC correspondent...

“Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.

Again, it's not as simple as the reductionist statement you keep making.  Even the pope himself has said it's far more complicated.  In the article you linked, they even expressed that they weren't backing away from their ecumenical efforts, but are stating what they believe about themselves.  In truth, Benedict has said that he believes some non-Christians (like Jews, Buddhists, and Muslims) will be saved.  That got 'im in a brew with some of his own folk.
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
– Walter Lock
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2009, 07:53:41 PM »
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fanuvmxpx
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2009, 08:03:58 PM »
Quote from: James. on June 29, 2009, 07:53:41 PM
In truth, Benedict has said that he believes some non-Christians (like Jews, Buddhists, and Muslims) will be saved.  That got 'im in a brew with some of his own folk.

I can imagine, but it certainly assists with the one world religion prophesied to come.
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larry2
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 05:28:36 AM »

I came out of Catholicism, and I love the people there; I just don't agree with all their doctrines. Percentage wise, I would say there are as many saved in that denomination as others. Their axiom of "Outside the Church No Salvation" is just an open statement of what they believe. In many other denominations it becomes very more subtle. You must be baptized in my tank, you must observe the Sabbath, you must not revert from being a sheep, become a dog and return to your own vomit; some go as far as judging you by their scanning eye of your works of righteousness.

I believe honeyant has come up with the best reply so far. She attends the Catholic Church, she loves the Lord, and she is saved; do I now judge her by a doctrine that has nothing to do with the fruit of the Holy Spirit she bears in her life? Do I take precious brethren who believe in observing the law, or do not believe in having instrumental music and just cast them from us? I do not have to agree with their doctrine, but I'm going to spend eternity with them; get used to dwelling together now in these present bodies we dwell in.

You had better wake up you who judge lest you find yourselves wanting when reward time comes. God he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. We are told to not despise the one that observes a day, eats or doesn't eat for the Lord, because the Lord receives them. We are the product of God's work in our lives, and our submission to His will for us. Our salvation is based on what Christ did on the cross, and our belief in that; not what some organization says. The Church is not an organization, but an organism consisting of all believers in the finished work of redemption to us who believe. What do we do now? Walk in the light as He is light.

God bless you all in Jesus' name - larry2
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Mere Nick
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 05:32:56 AM »
Thanks, Larry.
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 05:32:56 AM »
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fanuvmxpx
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2009, 11:58:57 AM »
Yup, good post Larry, there are certainly believers in Catholicism, my mom came from them.
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2009, 01:20:46 PM »
I also believe it isn't how perfectly right we are about how one does church. But leadership is almost always corrupt and pride leads to destruction. We are like sheep that get led astray. If a person loves God and others then that person is a child of God. Judging, such as the dear pope does, creates judgment for that person.
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