Author Topic: Are Jews a Nation, a Religion, or a Race? (Read 1437 times)

notreligus · « **on:** Fri Jun 06, 2014 - 08:19:34 »

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/are-jews-a-nation-a-religion-or-a-race/#

This is a link to a blog where this subject is discussed.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **on:** Fri Jun 06, 2014 - 08:19:34 »

Dougie56 · « **Reply #1 on:** Fri Jun 06, 2014 - 11:10:33 »

Physically they are a nation and a religion,not a race,Spiritually they are all the redeemed of the Lord.

TonkaTim · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri Jun 06, 2014 - 11:38:18 »

Quote from: Dougie56 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 - 11:10:33

Spiritually they are all the redeemed of the Lord.

Could you explain that for me please.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri Jun 06, 2014 - 23:53:38 »

Romans 2:28 and 29 state that a person is a Jew inwardly not outwardly by the flesh but by the spirit,all those that belong to Christ are Jews.

Alan · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 06:14:44 »

Half of Israel consider themselves to be secular Jews, they don't want to be associated with a God of creation, but they also do not wish to lose their heritage and refer to themselves as a culture, not a religion.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 06:14:44 »

AVZ · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 08:02:25 »

Jews are an ethnicity and a religion.
They are neither a race or a nation.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:13:46 »

Israel does consider itself a Jewish nation which is their prerogative,I don't know who else would be the judge of it but God,one could say they are not,but what weight does it carry?

AVZ · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:44:23 »

Quote from: Dougie56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:13:46

Israel does consider itself a Jewish nation which is their prerogative,I don't know who else would be the judge of it but God,one could say they are not,but what weight does it carry?

Sure. USA considers itself a Christian nation.
That doesn't make Christianity a nation. Islam also is no a nation, Buddhists are not a nation.
I would say the only denomination that actually is a nation would (disputably) be Catholicism. They do have their own little empire called Vatican City.
Yet, that doesn't make Catholicism a nation. Even Islam is not a nation.

So no, Jews are not a nation.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:47:52 »

On a world scale no but Israel is a nation.

AVZ · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:54:03 »

Quote from: Dougie56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:47:52

On a world scale no but Israel is a nation.

I guess you got my point.

DaveW · « **Reply #10 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 07:52:26 »

Quote from: AVZ on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:44:23

Quote from: Dougie56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:13:46
Israel does consider itself a Jewish nation which is their prerogative,I don't know who else would be the judge of it but God,one could say they are not,but what weight does it carry?
Sure. USA considers itself a Christian nation.
That doesn't make Christianity a nation. Islam also is no a nation, Buddhists are not a nation.
I would say the only denomination that actually is a nation would (disputably) be Catholicism. They do have their own little empire called Vatican City.
Yet, that doesn't make Catholicism a nation. Even Islam is not a nation.

So no, Jews are not a nation.

In modern parlance of "nation" meaning a political state with defined boundaries; you are correct. In the more ancient use of "nation" meaning an identifiable people group; (goy in Hebrew, ethnos in Greek) they are.

Where it gets complicated in the "religion" part of the question is the fact that God placed several covenants (abrahamic, mosaic, etc) with the people group Israel; now referred to as "Jews." So, unlike those other religious systems, this one is inextricably tied into a particular ethnic group. One cannot properly convert to the 'religion' of Judaism without also assimilating into the Jewish community; taking on Jewish culture, history and ethnicity.

AVZ · « **Reply #11 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 09:47:56 »

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 07:52:26

Quote from: AVZ on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:44:23
Quote from: Dougie56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 - 11:13:46
Israel does consider itself a Jewish nation which is their prerogative,I don't know who else would be the judge of it but God,one could say they are not,but what weight does it carry?
Sure. USA considers itself a Christian nation.
That doesn't make Christianity a nation. Islam also is no a nation, Buddhists are not a nation.
I would say the only denomination that actually is a nation would (disputably) be Catholicism. They do have their own little empire called Vatican City.
Yet, that doesn't make Catholicism a nation. Even Islam is not a nation.

So no, Jews are not a nation.

In modern parlance of "nation" meaning a political state with defined boundaries; you are correct. In the more ancient use of "nation" meaning an identifiable people group; (goy in Hebrew, ethnos in Greek) they are.

Where it gets complicated in the "religion" part of the question is the fact that God placed several covenants (abrahamic, mosaic, etc) with the people group Israel; now referred to as "Jews." So, unlike those other religious systems, this one is inextricably tied into a particular ethnic group. One cannot properly convert to the 'religion' of Judaism without also assimilating into the Jewish community; taking on Jewish culture, history and ethnicity.

The the Jews once were a nation is correct and I agree with you.
The header of this post however is in the present tense, and should be answered that today Jews no longer are a nation.

Although the covenant was with the Israelites...it is arguable if that covenant is with those who we consider Israelites today.
There are numerous groups living in Israel that do not find their historical roots in Judaism, and on top of that there is not a single Jew alive today that can list his or her lineage back to the Old Testament Jews. Theoretically it is well possible that today's Israel and the Jews living within it have no historical or ancestral connection with the mosaic Jews as they once were.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #12 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 10:02:38 »

Techicalities,still a nation.

grain of salt · « **Reply #13 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 10:28:12 »

Depends on context. It's good to consider the difference between "Hebrew, Israelite, and Jew."

It could be said that all Jews are Israelites, and all Israelites are Hebrews. But, not all Hebrews are Israelites, and not all Israelites are Jews. Have you ever considered that Arab descendants of Abraham are actually Hebrews?

The term "Jew" really started being used post Assyrian and Babylonian captivity after most of the other tribes had been carried away, and Judah was all that remained.

Jews are ethnic descendants of the tribe of Judah and refugees from the other tribes. But, of course, "Judaism" and being "Jewish" may also refer to the practitioners of the contemporary Jewish faith.

DaveW · « **Reply #14 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 10:30:32 »

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 09:47:56

There are numerous groups living in Israel that do not find their historical roots in Judaism, and on top of that there is not a single Jew alive today that can list his or her lineage back to the Old Testament Jews. Theoretically it is well possible that today's Israel and the Jews living within it have no historical or ancestral connection with the mosaic Jews as they once were.

And all of that is totally irrelevant (except with respect to the priests and levites) because once a person is converted to Judaism, they and their descendants after them become part of the historic Jewish people. Indeed, that is commanded in the OT.

As to priests and levites, there has always been a group that maintained their decendancy from Levi and Aaron. (could not prove it) Modern DNA testing has shown that at least 90% of them carry the same variant of the Y chromosome. (common male ancestor)

Alan · « **Reply #15 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 16:29:56 »

Quote from: Dougie56 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 10:02:38

Techicalities,still a nation.

For one half of the Jewish population that live in the USA, they are NOT a nation.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #16 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 19:30:02 »

Alan · « **Reply #17 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 19:45:08 »

Quote from: Dougie56 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 19:30:02

So?

Soooooo.....not a nation

Dougie56 · « **Reply #18 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 20:06:41 »

NATION!!!!!!!! ITS CALLED ISRAEL.

Alan · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 20:14:44 »

Yes Dougie, but that wasn't what the OP was asking. It wasn't about Israel, it was about Jews.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 20:18:13 »

A technicality.

DaveW · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 09:00:05 »

Quote from: Alan on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 16:29:56

Quote from: Dougie56 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 10:02:38
Techicalities,still a nation.
For one half of the Jewish population that live in the USA, they are NOT a nation.

So that means that because there are thousands of Russian expats living in the US that Russia is not a nation?

Red Baker · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 09:35:43 »

Quote from: notreligus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 - 08:19:34

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/are-jews-a-nation-a-religion-or-a-race/#

This is a link to a blog where this subject is discussed.

Paul in Galatians 1:13, 14, said that the Jews were both a religion and a nation. In Galatians 2:15 he said that it was a race. It hard to to disagree with Paul since he wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit. So the Spirit's testimony said that it is a race, nation and a religion, all three. It should not be up for discussion, God has spoken.

DaveW · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 09:44:09 »

Quote from: Red Baker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 09:35:43

In Galatians 2:15 he said that it was a race. It hard to to disagree with Paul since he wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit.

? ? ? ?

Gal 2:15 (KJV) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

I looked at over 40 different English translations and never found one mention of "race" in that verse. The greek word for "nature" (the only one I could think of in that verse that could be taken as "race") just means the natural order of things. Physis Strongs G5449

Dougie56 · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 10:19:21 »

Not a race as we think of a race but a particular family of people on the earth in which Gods blessing came upon and also because of comes upon all of us who believe spiritually.But physically Gods blessing rested upon them as a people along with the spiritual promises of Abraham which is unto us all,hence the sand of the sea.But yes a race or family that God blessed through the blessing that came upon Jacob.In this way they were a race but as in any other race did not remain a pure race but were scattered among the nations or people and other races.One more point is that God told them not to mix with other peoples but not because of racial reasons but because of spiritual reasons of them worshiping other gods since strangers were allowed to join and be partakers in Israel.As a race as we think of Abrahams natural race did not all become Jews but nevertheless were still part of that race or the family of people he left behind in Ur.

DaveW · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 10:45:35 »

There are only 5 races:

Negroid
Australoid
Caucasoid
Mongoloid
Native American (I forget the technical term)

All Semites (Jews, Arabs, etc) are clearly Caucasian.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 11:21:15 »

I thought so.caucasians.

Red Baker · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 11:35:45 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 09:44:09

Quote from: Red Baker on Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 09:35:43
In Galatians 2:15 he said that it was a race. It hard to to disagree with Paul since he wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit.

? ? ? ?

Gal 2:15 (KJV) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

I looked at over 40 different English translations and never found one mention of "race" in that verse. The greek word for "nature" (the only one I could think of in that verse that could be taken as "race") just means the natural order of things. Physis Strongs G5449

Galatians 2:15~We who are Jews by nature"..... I Paul, and you Peter and Barnabas, and the rest of the Jews at Antioch. Some are Jews by grace, in a spiritual sense, as all are that are Christ's, that are true believers in him, that are born again, and have internal principles of grace formed in their souls, of whatsoever nation they be; see (Romans 2:28 Romans 2:29). Others become Jews by being proselytes to the Jewish religion: such were the Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven, that were dwelling at Jerusalem, when the Spirit was poured down on the apostles on the day of Pentecost, (Acts 2:5 ) , but these here spoken of were such as were Jews by birth; they were born so, were descended of Jewish parents, and from their infancy were brought up in the Jewish religion, and under the law of Moses, and in the observance of it~this only could have been Paul purpose of using this phrase~"We who are Jews by nature", and not sinners of the Gentiles.

DaveW · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 11:38:20 »

That still does not make the Jews a "race."

Red Baker · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 11:48:58 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 11:38:20

That still does not make the Jews a "race."

Then you expound Galatians 2:15, and explain why Paul used that phrase as he did.

DaveW · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 11:52:38 »

Both the Jews and the Greeks at Galatia were white - Caucasian race.

He is talking about bloodlines here. Different nationality, clan, ethnicity. But the same race.

Alan · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 12:29:14 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 09:00:05

Quote from: Alan on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 16:29:56
Quote from: Dougie56 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 10:02:38
Techicalities,still a nation.
For one half of the Jewish population that live in the USA, they are NOT a nation.

So that means that because there are thousands of Russian expats living in the US that Russia is not a nation?

No Dave, but the Russians living in the USA could not be considered a nation themselves, that is the correct answer to the OP; are Jews a nation, religion, or race? Jews living abroad could not be considered a Nation, they may have originated from a nation, but as it is they are not a nation.

Dougie56 · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 12:36:38 »

Nobody said they were,sounds argumentive to me.

Alan · « **Reply #33 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 18:31:29 »

Quote from: Dougie56 on Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 12:36:38

Nobody said they were,sounds argumentive to me.

Not wishing to argue but call it as you like. I do make a valid point though with Jews living abroad, How do these people refer to themselves? Are they a religion, a culture, an ethnic minority?

Dougie56 · « **Reply #34 on:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 - 18:47:50 »

Id say all the above.

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Author Topic: Are Jews a Nation, a Religion, or a Race? (Read 1437 times)

notreligus

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