GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy  (Read 6974 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 10:49:50 »
Some time ago I was involved in a discussion concerning dichotomy vs. trichotomy.  It was an interesting discussion and I don't remember seeing such a discussion here on Grace Centered.  It is necessary to state that I am in the "trichotomy" camp of believers, that being that I believe man is of three parts:  body, soul, spirit.  Many will and do disagree with me/this idea and that's fine.  I am not suggesting that everyone must believe as I do.  This is what I believe and some information as to why I do.

First, I would offer a little historical prespective concerning Trichotomy.  Much of the information I offer comes from the Pamphlet by Brent Harris titled "Body, Soul, Spirit."  A historical snapshot of Trichotomy:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE HISTORY OF TRICHOTOMY
Most Biblical scholars in the early church saw man as a threefold (trichotomous) being. Even as late as Augustine (A.D. 354-430), the common view was that man was trichotomous - that he possessed a body, a soul, and a spirit. The words of Augustine substantiate this fact very plainly when he wrote in Faith and Creed:
"... there are three things of which man consists - namely spirit, soul, and body ..." [Faith and the Creed (XX:23)].
But as Latin Theology (i.e., Roman Catholicism) began to take hold, most theologians abandoned trichotomy and began to see man as simply a two-fold being of soul and body (with spirit being just another name for the soul). This idea, known as dichotomy, continued as the majority opinion down through the centuries and still is the common view held by the Roman Catholic Church and most of the Protestant churches that came out of the Reformation (i.e., the Dutch Reformed, the Lutheran, the Episcopalian, the Presbyterian, etc.) - all of which, interestingly enough, hold to a post-millennial approach to eschatology [i.e., that the church must take control of the world before Christ can return (more about this later)]. It is interesting to note in this connection, however, that Martin Luther, the father (so to speak) of the Reformation, championed the view that man was trichotomous.
THE PLYMOUTH BRETHREN
It wasn't until the rise of evangelicalism in the 1800s [and most especially, the Plymouth Brethren, the group which is looked upon by most church historians as the parent body out from which evangelicalism sprang] and John Nelson Darby that trichotomy once again revived - and it's worth noting in this connection that along with a revived view of man as a trichotomous being, pre-millennialism also revived. Darby's teachings were popularized and gained wide acceptance and public acclaim in conservative church bodies throughout most of the 20th century. But with the rise of the modern ecumenical movement - i.e., the political movement of Protestant and Catholic bodies together to "take the nation back for Christ and the church" - post-millennialism (which "politicizing" promotes) resurfaced along with dichotomy - which post-millennialism of necessity encourages.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some Scriptures revealing soul and spirit:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
•   "The spirit (Heb. - ne shamah) of man is the lamp of the Lord." (Prov. 20:27)
•   "The spirit (Gk. - pneuma) indeed is willing ..." (Matt. 26:41)
•   "Jesus perceiving in his spirit (Gk. - pneuma) ..." (Mark 2:8)
•   "He sighed deeply in his spirit (Gk. - pneuma) ..." (Mark 8:12)
•   "My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior (Gk. - pneuma) ..." (Luke 1:47)
•   "He was deeply moved in spirit (Gk. - pneuma) ..." (John 11:33)
•   "Being fervent is spirit (Gk. - pneuma) ..." (Acts 18:25)
•   "I am going to Jerusalem, bound in the spirit (Gk. - pneuma) ..." (Acts 20:22)
•   "Whom I serve in my spirit (Gk. - pneuma)." (Rom. 1:9 NASB)
•   "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit (Gk. - pneuma) ..." (Rom. 8:15)
•   "What man knoweth the things of a man except the spirit (Gk. - pneuma) of man which is in him." (I Cor 2:11)
•   "They refreshed my spirit (Gk. - pneuma) as well as yours." (I Cor. 16:18)
•   "His spirit (Gk. - pneuma) was refreshed by you all." (2 Cor. 7:13)
•   "The Lord Jesus be with your spirit (Gk. - pneuma)." (2 Tim. 4:22)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why are you cast down, O my soul (Heb. - nephesh)." (Ps. 42:5)
2.   "My soul (Gk. - psuche) is very sorrowful." (Matt. 26:38)
3.   "My soul (Gk. - psuche) doth magnify the Lord." (Luke 1:46)
4.   "Now is my soul (Gk. - psuche) troubled." (John 12:27)
5.   "... were of one heart and soul (Gk. - psuche) ..." (Acts 4:32)
6.   "I call for a record upon my soul (Gk. - psuche) ." (2 Cor. 1:23)
7.   "For they watch for your souls (Gk. - psuche) ." (Heb. 13:17)
8.   "Seeing you have purified your souls (Gk. - psuche) ." (I Pet. 1:22)
9.   "Which war against your soul (Gk. - psuche) ." (I Pet. 2:11)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will post more, but this is a good start I believe.  I am posting this here in Non-Traditional Theology because I also believe in the Holy Trinity and I am convinced if we are able to understand the beliefs of dichotomy vs. the beliefs of trichotomy, it will help us to understand why some believe in God the Father and Jesus and some believe in the Holy Trinity.



Christian Forums and Message Board

Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 10:49:50 »

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #1 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 12:37:22 »
Adam did not receive "ruwach"-Spirit but rather became a "chay nephesh" (living soul). Simply taking one of the Scripture references from your post shows that "spirit" is transient in nature because "the spirit of man" is "the spirit of the world" according to what Paul actually writes in context:

1 Corinthians 2:11-12 KJV
11.  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12.  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The truth is that "the spirit of man" must needs to be cast out, (sent away - GSN#863 "aphiemi") before the Spirit of YHWH 'Adonay will dwell within the vessels of his creation.
  ::smile::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #1 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 12:37:22 »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #2 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 14:14:34 »
Thanks for the thoughts daq.  However you mention both spirit and soul which still leaves us with body, soul, spirit. 

In his pamphlet Brent Harris wrote:

LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE

It should be noted in this connection that the Hebrew word for spirit is ne shamah which means "wind," and the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh which means a "living (thinking) being." They are two totally different words, and mean two totally different things. In addition, the Greek word for spirit is pneuma which means "breeze," and the Greek word for soul is psuche, which - like the Hebrew word, nephesh - means a "living (thinking) being." Again, they are two totally different words, and mean two totally different things.

In addition, the Hebrew word for spirit, ne shamah ("wind"), corresponds to the Greek word for spirit, pneuma ("breeze"), while the Hebrew word for soul, nephesh ("living (thinking) being") corresponds to the Greek word, psuche (also "living (thinking) being").
Finally, the fact that the soul and spirit of man are two different things is made absolutely apparent by Hebrews 4:12 where the Bible speaks of separating the two into two distinct entities:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Thus, when God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him ..." (Gen. 1:26-27) what is meant here is that God made man a three-part being. Since God is a three-part being (i.e., He is triune), He created man a three-part being - body, soul and spirit.
------------------------------------------

Please remember, I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe as I do, nor is my intent to provoke anyone in any way.  I'm simply explaining what I believe and why.  It is FYI and not intended to be a hammer to beat people over the head with. 

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #3 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 14:53:22 »
Bold-red emphasis mine:

Thanks for the thoughts daq.  However you mention both spirit and soul which still leaves us with body, soul, spirit.  

In his pamphlet Brent Harris wrote:

LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE

It should be noted in this connection that the Hebrew word for spirit is ne shamah which means "wind," and the Hebrew word for soul is nephesh which means a "living (thinking) being." They are two totally different words, and mean two totally different things. In addition, the Greek word for spirit is pneuma which means "breeze," and the Greek word for soul is psuche, which - like the Hebrew word, nephesh - means a "living (thinking) being." Again, they are two totally different words, and mean two totally different things.

In addition, the Hebrew word for spirit, ne shamah ("wind"), corresponds to the Greek word for spirit, pneuma ("breeze"), while the Hebrew word for soul, nephesh ("living (thinking) being") corresponds to the Greek word, psuche (also "living (thinking) being").
Finally, the fact that the soul and spirit of man are two different things is made absolutely apparent by Hebrews 4:12 where the Bible speaks of separating the two into two distinct entities:

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Thus, when God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him ..." (Gen. 1:26-27) what is meant here is that God made man a three-part being. Since God is a three-part being (i.e., He is triune), He created man a three-part being - body, soul and spirit.
------------------------------------------

Please remember, I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe as I do, nor is my intent to provoke anyone in any way.  I'm simply explaining what I believe and why.  It is FYI and not intended to be a hammer to beat people over the head with.  



Nay, but see the problem is the promoting of an error because, (apparently) it happens to agree with the teachings of modern psychology, (and yet modern psychology does not even acknowledge the possibility of spirit "devils" or "demons"). In another thread "gospel" just repeated the same old mantra that this is an "endless debate" and that no one can really prove their side one way or the other. However, the only ones for whom it is an "endless debate" are those who do not want to allow themselves to see the possibility of the truth with an open, New Testament-oriented, mindset. The portion of your quote in bold-red emphasis above is simply an outright misrepresentation if not a lie: HSN#5397 "neshamah" is found a mere 24 times and 17 of those occurences it is translated in the King James AV as "breath" (not "spirit-wind" which is HSN#7307 "ruwach").

Strong's Hebrew Definition for #05397
05397 // hmvn // n@shamah // nesh-aw-maw' //
from 05395 ; TWOT - 1433a; n f
AV - breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=hebrew&stnm=05397

Original Strong's Ref. #5590
Romanized  psuche
Pronounced psoo-khay'
from GSN5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from GSN4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from GSN2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew HSN5315, HSN7307 and HSN2416):
KJV--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

According to the Original Strong's Def. of GSN#5590:
GSN#4151 Pneuma (Spirit-Wind) = HSN#7307 Ruwach (Spirit-Wind)
GSN#5590 Psuche (Soul) = HSN#5315 Nephesh (Soul)
GSN#2222 Zoe (Life) = HSN#2416 Chay (Life)

And although the actual Strong's Definition itself is misleading; still the corresponding Hebrew and Greek words, as stated in the definition quoted here, are EXACT in their usage in the corresponding Hebrew and Greek texts. This can be proven over, and over, and over, and again. Pages and pages of this thread or any other thread can be laid out showing that what the Strong's Definition states herein above is tried and true. I will however bother you no more with the correct definitions here because your mind is apparently already made up as to what you would like to teach everyone.  ::smile::


Re: The Holy Spirit is The Father (Replies 17-29)
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 11:48:28 PM »

::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 14:17:53 by daq »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #3 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 14:53:22 »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #4 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:10:19 »
Thanks for your comments daq, but let me say that your last sentence was incorrect completely, but I supose your mind is made up as to what I think.  I have stated again and again that I am simply stating what I believe and why and I do not expect anyone to agree with me.  I am NOT TEACHING anyone.  Sorry that you have to make that assumption/assertion.  It was unnecessary and incorrect.

You accept one translation as the only true translation and seem determined that all others must be wrong.  I disagree with that.  I have seen these same translations over and over again in several writings, just as I have seen the other side of the argument.  However, translation aside, I have not seen anything here posted by you to support the idea of dichotomy or to disprove the idea of trichotomy. 

Consider this statement by Harris:

BEHOLDING AND REFLECTING THE LORD

It is in our spirits where the consciousness of God is found. Some have said that:
•   Our spirit is where we are conscious of God.
•   Our soul is where we are conscious of self.
•   Our bodies are where we are conscious of the physical world of the senses.

Sanctification means bringing our soul into submission to our spirit which is beholding and reflecting God. When we do this, we reflect God to the world. This is what Paul meant when he said that

"... we all, with open face beholding as in a glass [mirror] the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Cor. 3:18)

This is what true godliness is all about. It's not about learning formulas from "how to" books promoted by "Christian" psychologists and counselors on how to have a good marriage, to be a loving father or wife, to be a caring parent, etc. It's about beholding God in our spirit and reflecting Him through our soul to the world which surrounds us. Our need isn't for more books and seminars, our need is to behold the Lord in our spirit and reflect Him to those who touch us in our daily lives. When we do this, we will automatically be a loving father or mother, because He is a loving father or mother; we will automatically be a loving husband or wife because He is a loving husband or wife; we will automatically be a caring parent because He is a caring parent. This is exactly the practice of our Lord insofar as His walk with the Father is concerned. Jesus said,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

An honest and respectful presentation of one side of a discussion should be and deserves to be answered by an honest and respectful presentation of the other side.  In this way, both sides are presented and those who read the comments can determin the merrits of both and decide for themselves which they believe/support.  This is what "civil discourse" is supose to be and this is what I wish was the STANDARD here on Grace Centered.

Again, thanks for your comments.............God bless you and yours.
 

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #4 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:10:19 »



Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #5 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:12:28 »
Quote
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Thus, when God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him ..." (Gen. 1:26-27) what is meant here is that God made man a three-part being. Since God is a three-part being (i.e., He is triune), He created man a three-part being - body, soul and spirit.

Absolutely exquisite!

Thanks for posting this well thought out study

Not only is your analysis of the scripture unsurpassed, I found the historical background quite revealing

For I am often quite amused of how many Protestants adhere to doctrines that are merely layovers from early Roman Catholic influences

Encore, Encore!!!

In addition I would add that Jesus said "God is a Spirit"....( John 4:24 )

As I understand the bible like begats like, each according to its kind so....

To be made in The image of God, it follows that we be likewise..... spirits!

Especially as the scripture has said God is the Father of spirits ( Hebrews 12:9 )

Nevertheless this was an excellent presentation I must say

Needless to say

I am quite impressed!

Glory to God in the Highest!
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:27:07 by gospel »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #6 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:17:48 »
Gospel, have no fear, I do not deserve the credit for this study...............  ::smile::

Brent Harris who is the Author of the Pamphlet "Body, Soul, Spirit" deserves all the credit.  I have found him to have an excellent grasp on Scriptures and enjoy reading his works.  Still, for a second it was nice to accept your congradulations, however, sigh, I am so very undeserving.............

God bless....................


Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #7 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:19:15 »
Quote
I am NOT TEACHING anyone.  Sorry that you have to make that assumption/assertion.  It was unnecessary and incorrect.

The term for what he is doing through that assumption is called projection. He's projecting on to you what he himself fancies of himself

Don't feel bad, he's done the same towards me, as if we're competing for board space or even worse yet, the hearts and minds of the forum members and visitors  ::frown::

Quote
It is in our spirits where the consciousness of God is found. Some have said that:
•   Our spirit is where we are conscious of God.
•   Our soul is where we are conscious of self.
•   Our bodies are where we are conscious of the physical world of the senses.  

Now that was extremely well stated and having said that I'm just going to enjoy the rest of this exchange...please carry on, whilst I snuggle up with a little snack  ::eatingpopcorn:



Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #8 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:24:00 »
Gospel, have no fear, I do not deserve the credit for this study...............  ::smile::

Brent Harris who is the Author of the Pamphlet "Body, Soul, Spirit" deserves all the credit.  I have found him to have an excellent grasp on Scriptures and enjoy reading his works.  Still, for a second it was nice to accept your congradulations, however, sigh, I am so very undeserving.............

God bless....................



At any rate you deserve the credit for sharing with us out of what you have received and presenting it so well

Thanks for the tip!

I will definitely purchase a copy asap to add to my collection

Now....where was I?

Oh yea!  ::eatingpopcorn:

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #9 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 18:52:14 »
First, I want to state again that I did not start this thread with the idea of changing anyone's mind or trying to put anyone down.  I simply thought this would be a good discussion and I do not remember seeing a discussion concerning dichotomy vs. trichotomy on Grace Centered before.

As well, I want to say what got me interested in the study of this is that we are told in Scripture that we were created in God's image.  I remember growing up that many of the people in my Church believed in dichotomy and I always wondered why but was really not mature enough to research it for myself.  However, as I began to grow in Christ and study the Word of God, I quickly found that I could easily accept that we (man) were triune beings.  And why not?  God is a triune God:  God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.  So if He created us in His image, why would it not make sense that He would create us as triune beings?  That would be His image would it not.

Anyway, that is how I got into this study and my ONLY INTENT here was to present a Subject Study that I had not before seen and thought some would enjoy.  I do not expect anyone to believe as I do, and I do not wish to try and show anyone up,  It's simply a sharing of the Word of God and the opportunity to have both sides of a debate expressed for all to read and consider.

Now, I fully understand that those who do not believe in the Holy Trinity to disagree that we would be created as triune beings, and that's ok with me.  Folks deserve to have their views expressed and their case stated and that is how civil discours works.  In truth, I fully expected that it would be those of either the Protestant Churches or Catholic Church who would represent the dichotomy side of the debate.  I believe there are still many Protestants who believe in dichotomy, and I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but I believe at one time in their history they were believers in dichotomy.  Now all of this may have changed and that would be great.  Still, these were the areas where I thought the debate would come from.
------------------------------------------------------

To continue the debate, consider what Harris had to say in reference to Soul and Spirit:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOUL AND SPIRIT
It is important to understand the difference between our soul and spirit because it is in our spirit where we are cognizant of God and where He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit. It is the spirit where our fellowship with God begins. It is in our own spirit where we must worship God. This is why Jesus said,

"God is a Spirit (meaning the Holy Spirit): and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (meaning man's spirit) and in truth." (John 4:24)

Our spirit is deeper than our soul. It's deeper than our random thoughts. It's deeper than our outward emotions which we might project to others. It's a place to which we can retreat and always find happiness and joy in Christ - regardless of our outward circumstances. This is what Paul was talking about in II Cor. 6:10 when he said that as a servant of Christ he was "sorrowful, yet always rejoicing" - sorrowful in his soul due to the trying circumstances which surrounded him - but always rejoicing in his spirit where he had fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul puts it this way in II Cor. 4:8:

"... we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed." (II Cor. 4:8)

Nothing could shake Paul from his deep, abiding trust and peace that was his experience down deep in his spirit - although outwardly, in his soul, he was often bewildered and distressed. Some have likened it to a storm raging on the ocean; but if we go down beneath the waves we find rest and peace. How often we forget, and try to ride out the storm on the surface (in our soul) where the raging waves of confusion and fear predominate, instead of trusting Christ in our spirits.
It's in our spirits where "the peace that passes all understanding" is to be found (Phil. 4:7) - the peace which is ours because Christ dwells there. It was in our spirit where we first met God when the Holy Spirit convicted us of our sin. Wasn't it glorious when we first came to know Christ? It might not have made sense in our mind or soul, but down deep inside we knew the gospel was true and that we needed a Savior. That was God speaking to us in our spirit.
---------------------------------------

Thank all of you who took the time to read these comments and feel free to add your own regardless of which side you are on.

God bless........................

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #10 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 19:05:15 »
Quote
However, as I began to grow in Christ and study the Word of God, I quickly found that I could easily accept that we (man) were triune beings.  And why not?  God is a triune God:  God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.  So if He created us in His image, why would it not make sense that He would create us as triune beings?  That would be His image would it not.

Accordingly it is God who also gave us

3 Dimensional perception, of a 3 Dimensional realm, and the 3 Dimensional concepts of space and time to go along with it

Quote
First, I want to state again that I did not start this thread with the idea of changing anyone's mind or trying to put anyone down.  I simply thought this would be a good discussion and I do not remember seeing a discussion concerning dichotomy vs. trichotomy on Grace Centered before.

Anyway I get the point of your post and will refrain from making comments that propagate the atmosphere of hostility in the thread, for I don't like it when it's done to me...so I apologize for instigating that tenor and tone into this discussion

Your points were so well made made I just got a little over excited is all

I still intend to snack and enjoy though

Nothing adversarial about that

 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11868
  • Manna: 345
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #11 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 21:27:35 »
As nearly as I have been able to tell, the word "soul" (nephesh, psuche) is used differently by different Biblical authors.

For instance, most of the poetic books of the OT use the words spirit and soul in parallelisms to mean exactly the same thing.

Paul, on the other hand, specifically contrasts spirit with soul, drawing a marked difference between the two.

I think it's a matter of the education of the Biblical writers.  They don't all have the same vocabulary, even if they agree in meaning.

Jarrod

BornToReign

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #12 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 08:34:13 »
Our image.

John 4:24 ESV
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

But you all are saying that God is/was in the beginning flesh and blood, flesh and blood body, soul and Spirit? And that this is the image of us humans.

1 Corinthians 15:50 ESV
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Flesh (body) is perishable, not eternal. God is Spirit not flesh. When He created man and said our image He nor anyone else in heaven was a flesh and blood body. He is Spirit with soul, we are souls with spirits but bodies are unique to humans. God is One not three.

Romans 8:21 ESV
that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Acts 13:34 ESV
And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'

He put on corruption for a little while, and took it back off. He was sown perishable and was raised imperishable and so are we if we are in Him and He is in us.

 1 Corinthians 15:52 ESV
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.


It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being";the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

{The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.}

As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, {and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.}  

{Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven
.} -1Cor15

The image of the man of heaven is different from the image of the man of dust! So then the image of the real us is not the man you see the corrupted flesh and blood body which is one of the three that you are counting, but it is the true unseen image of the man of heaven and that image does not include one of the three images that you are counting.

2 Corinthians 3:17 ESV
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

1 Kings 8:60 ESV
that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other.

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


« Last Edit: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 09:25:34 by BornToReign »

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #13 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 12:23:40 »
Quote
Our image.

John 4:24 ESV
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

But you all are saying that God is/was in the beginning flesh and blood, flesh and blood body, soul and Spirit? And that this is the image of us humans.

Huh?

No one is saying that!

God is Spirit, we are spirit beings, who live in a body and have a soul

The Christ,

A Spirit Being inhabited the body of Jesus, the soul was the means of how He interfaced with the world and with the Spirit

The example Jesus gave us is in His Spirit was not in subjugation to His soul or flesh

His soul and thereby His flesh was in total and complete subjugation to His Spirit

In the case of man

The soul of a natural man has no means by which to relate to the things of the Spirit

He relates solely to the world

For the natural man to interface with God

His spirit, the real person within must be renewed by the Holy Spirit

Even after this renewal we all still have to retrain, conform reform our soul

from taking its lead, from the world as it has become so accustomed

After regeneration the soul is not renewed

But NOW has an alternative

It can now interface with his spirit

and relate to and receive information from God

Jesus met Simon

Through fellowship and spending time with Jesus

Peter was awakened

When Jesus referred to Simon he was speaking to his carnal/flesh nature

When Jesus referred to Peter he was speaking to his spirit

Simon was a bending reed, wishy washy

Peter was a rock, solid

Your spirit is who you really are, what God created you to be

Jacob the trickster

is really Israel the prince

I've said too much in my own way and not nearly as well as p.rehbein

So I'll just go back to eating my popcorn and observe
 ::eatingpopcorn:
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 12:34:23 by gospel »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #14 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 20:33:21 »
I certainly NEVER said that God was "flesh" or ever was.  If anyone reads the comments here they will see that I clearly stated as did the Author Brent Harris that God is a Spirit, so how anyone could ever misconstrue my posts to that extend is beyond me.
 ::shrug:: ::smile::

With regards to the spirit of man, which is what this thread is about/discussing "THE TRIUNE MAN", Brent Harris had this to say.

WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF MAN?

If, however, man has a spirit which is different from his soul, what is the spirit? The spirit is our "inner man" (Eph. 3:16) - it is that portion of our being which is meant to touch (and commune with) God - so that we:
"May be able to comprehend (understand) ... what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height (of Christ); and to know (His) ... love ... which passeth knowledge, that ... (we) might be filled with all the fullness of God." (Eph. 3:18-19).
The spirit is what Peter refers to as "the hidden person of the heart" (I Pet. 3:4) - and it's precisely this "hidden person of the heart" which differentiates man from the beasts.

Thank you BorntoReign for your comments.............

 ::tippinghat::

BornToReign

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #15 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 21:14:30 »
I certainly NEVER said that God was "flesh" or ever was.  If anyone reads the comments here they will see that I clearly stated as did the Author Brent Harris that God is a Spirit, so how anyone could ever misconstrue my posts to that extend is beyond me.
 ::shrug:: ::smile::

With regards to the spirit of man, which is what this thread is about/discussing "THE TRIUNE MAN", Brent Harris had this to say.

WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF MAN?

If, however, man has a spirit which is different from his soul, what is the spirit? The spirit is our "inner man" (Eph. 3:16) - it is that portion of our being which is meant to touch (and commune with) God - so that we:
"May be able to comprehend (understand) ... what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height (of Christ); and to know (His) ... love ... which passeth knowledge, that ... (we) might be filled with all the fullness of God." (Eph. 3:18-19).
The spirit is what Peter refers to as "the hidden person of the heart" (I Pet. 3:4) - and it's precisely this "hidden person of the heart" which differentiates man from the beasts.

Thank you BorntoReign for your comments.............

 ::tippinghat::

How is God a triune being?

He writes man is in Gods image and man is a triune being, spirit soul and body, and that somehow supports the trinity because we are created in the image of God. So does that not insinuate that God is a triune being as we are in Gods image?

I was pointing out with scripture that the image of God that we are is not our flesh and blood body as that part is temporal.

My point was that God is not flesh body so He is not a triune being. We are not triune either as we, the real we are created in His image.



{Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.} -1Cor15

The image of the man of heaven is different from the image of the man of dust! So then the image of the real us is not the man you see, the corrupted flesh and blood body which is one of the three according to those who count, but it is the true unseen image of the man of heaven and that image does not include one of those three images.


From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh.
Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

« Last Edit: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 21:42:08 by BornToReign »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #16 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 22:10:19 »
God is a triune being because He is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, the Holy Trinity, but you already knew that was what I was referring to when I said God was a Triune God.  I know you see God the Father and the Holy Ghost as one and not seperated in any way (or, at least that is what I have determined based on yours and others comments here).  If I'm correct, you believe there is God the Holy Spirit Father and Jesus..............and you know I and others believe in the Holy Trinity, however this isn't the idea of the OP, the idea being to discuss the triune man.

So when I said that we were created in God's image, yes, our eternal spirits are the image of God and not our earthly flesh.  However, as a triune being we have body, soul, spirit and that relates to God being a Triune God.  It's simply a comparison of how He is triune and we are triune as His creations.

It isn't the intent of this OP to debate the Triune God, but rather the triune man.  The debate concering dichotomy vs. trichotomy.  Yes, the two are related, however it is quite simple to stay with the discussion on the level of man (us).  There have been discussions aplenty concerning the Triune God and all have had their opportunity to express their beliefs on that issue.  What this OP is designed for is to discuss "man" and the debate as stated is with regards to man.

Thanks, again............

BornToReign

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #17 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 22:18:38 »

Ok Then. I guess I am in the Dichotomy "camp" as I see two.  ::smile::

 |3335| And formed
   |3068| Yahweh
   |0430| God
   |0853| -
   |0120| the man
   |6083| {out of} dust
   |4480| from
   |0125| the ground,
   |5301| and blew
   |0639| into his nostrils
   |5397| {the} breath of
   |2416| life.
   |1961| And became
   |0120| the man
   |5315| a soul.
   |2416| living

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

|3779| So
   |2532| also
   |1125| it has been written:
   |1096| became
   |3588| The
   |4413| first
   |0444| man
   |0076| Adam
   |1519| -
   |5590| soul
   |2198| a living.
   |3588| The
   |2078| last
   |0076| Adam
   |1519| -
   |4151| Spirit
   |2227| a life-giving.


Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. -1Cor15



And thanks for letting me comment..... ::tippinghat::

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #18 on: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 01:33:20 »
Quote
My point was that God is not flesh body so He is not a triune being. We are not triune either as we, the real we are created in His image.

Somehow in stating this you have conveniently set aside the Truth that God revealed Himself as A Man in the Body of Jesus who is The Christ!

Considering the preponderance of discussion we have exchanged on the topic of elevating the fact that Jesus was a flesh and blood human being

I find it rather interesting how you could so easily set that strongly held opinion aside in regards to this topic

It seems our doctrines conveniently shift for the mere sake of holding them together when they do not line up consistently   

That stated...

Jesus is the flesh and blood part of the Triune God...that is the whole point!  ::shrug::


Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #19 on: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 01:43:40 »
Quote
And thanks for letting me comment.....


Not trying to be a smart aleck but in regards to what has been imparted in this thread as succinctly and elegantly set forth by p.rehbein, you should probably read his posts a few times and maybe acquire the book he suggested...
 for you are allowing yourself to miss the greatest of all revelations the bible has given to the world....

The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit all deity and as such not 3 Gods but The One True and Living God, revealed in 3 Ways

That said I am mindful that only The Father by His Holy Spirit can change what you believe in your heart about His Son
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 18:10:04 by gospel »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #20 on: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 04:28:29 »
The problem with the acceptance of the dichotomy idea is that it aligns us with the beasts.  Beasts (animals) have a "body" as do we, and I believe we can all agree on that...........sooooooooooooo

1 down:  2 to go?  well, let's see.

We also know that beasts have a soul (as soul is described here in this study) for they can experience many of the same emotions as man.  Harris said it this way:

MAN AS DIFFERENTIATED
FROM THE BEASTS

The beasts have no such ability to touch God - they were never meant to "commune" with God - only man has this ability (or possibility). Indeed, if only the body and soul are taken into account, then the radical "animal rights" activists (as bizarre as they may seem) are correct when they say that there is little that differentiates man from the beasts - after all, beasts, just like man, think, reason, love, and hate and, ipso facto, they have a soul!

To say that they don't - that they just react to stimuli like plants - is asinine. Plants (which have only a body, but no soul) don't think, don't love, don't reason. Unlike the beasts and man, they only react to stimuli; they are still alive, but they don't have a soul, and surely they don't have a spirit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if we accept that beasts have souls as well as bodies, then we can agree that they are dichotomus, in that they are two-part creations.

2 down, 1 to go?  well, we'll see.

Now if as stated above the beasts of the earth are dichotomus, in that they have a body and a soul, and if we (man) also have a body and a soul, then there has to be ONE more thing that differentiates us from the beasts of the earth, for we are surely seperate from them because WE are aware of God.

Ergo:  Spirit.  If we have a spirit (which is the "likeness of God" in which we were created and breathed into us by God), then this becomes 1+1+1=3!

Triune Man:  Body, Soul and Spirit.

(you don't need my permission to comment, but you knew that, still, I thank you for your thoughts, not in a permissive way, but in a respectful way...........God bless)




BornToReign

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #21 on: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 10:13:58 »
The spirit of a man is not his own, it is either Gods Spirit, life, or other spirit, death.
Man is a living soul.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving spirit.

|0559| And said
|3068| Yahweh,
|3808| not
|1777| will strive
|7307| {My Spirit}<-----
|0120| with man
|5769| always
|7683| in their straying.
|1931| He
|1320| flesh;
61| and will be
|3117| his days
|3967| a hundred
|6242| and twenty

Jeremiah 34:18 ESV
And the men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me,
I will make them like the calf that they cut in two and passed between its parts--

Job 34:14-15 NKJV
 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Job 33:4 CJB
It is the Spirit of God that made me, the breath of Shaddai that gives me life.

|7307| The Spirit of
|0410| God
|6213| made me,
|5397| and breath
|7706| the Almighty's
|2421| gives me life

Genesis 7:22 ESV
Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.

|3605| All
|0834| which
|5397| breathed
|7307| the breath of
|2416| life,
|0639| in whose nostrils
|3605| of all
|0834| that
|2724| was in the dry land,
|4191| died.
 
Genesis 7:21 ESV
And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth,
and all mankind.

Man is a living soul that is influenced by spirit, either evil spirits or God.

|3335| And formed
|3068| Yahweh
|0430| God
|0853| -
|0120| the man
|6083| {out of} dust
|4480| from
|0125| the ground,
|5301| and blew
|0639| into his nostrils
|5397| {the} breath of
|2416| life.
|1961| And became
|0120| the man
|5315| a soul <-------
|2416| living

1 Corinthians 15:49 ESV
Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #22 on: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 14:27:22 »
The problem with the acceptance of the dichotomy idea is that it aligns us with the beasts.  Beasts (animals) have a "body" as do we, and I believe we can all agree on that...........sooooooooooooo

1 down:  2 to go?  well, let's see.

We also know that beasts have a soul (as soul is described here in this study) for they can experience many of the same emotions as man.  Harris said it this way:

MAN AS DIFFERENTIATED
FROM THE BEASTS

The beasts have no such ability to touch God - they were never meant to "commune" with God - only man has this ability (or possibility). Indeed, if only the body and soul are taken into account, then the radical "animal rights" activists (as bizarre as they may seem) are correct when they say that there is little that differentiates man from the beasts - after all, beasts, just like man, think, reason, love, and hate and, ipso facto, they have a soul!

To say that they don't - that they just react to stimuli like plants - is asinine. Plants (which have only a body, but no soul) don't think, don't love, don't reason. Unlike the beasts and man, they only react to stimuli; they are still alive, but they don't have a soul, and surely they don't have a spirit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if we accept that beasts have souls as well as bodies, then we can agree that they are dichotomus, in that they are two-part creations.

2 down, 1 to go?  well, we'll see.

Now if as stated above the beasts of the earth are dichotomus, in that they have a body and a soul, and if we (man) also have a body and a soul, then there has to be ONE more thing that differentiates us from the beasts of the earth, for we are surely seperate from them because WE are aware of God.

Ergo:  Spirit.  If we have a spirit (which is the "likeness of God" in which we were created and breathed into us by God), then this becomes 1+1+1=3!

Triune Man:  Body, Soul and Spirit.

(you don't need my permission to comment, but you knew that, still, I thank you for your thoughts, not in a permissive way, but in a respectful way...........God bless)


So you see BTR?
Both "p.rehbein" and "gospel" know and understand exactly what they are talking about and exactly what is at stake. However, the only real question in my mind is do they both know that the "spirit man" teaching is no different than entry level white witchcraft? The reason the pagans need a "spirit man" is so that they may blame their sins on the unclean "soul-man" carnal nature. Their so-called "spirit man" is considered clean and is the one who "communes" with their god. However, when they commit sin and iniquity, (and are caught red-handed at it) they will say it that it was their inclean "soul man" which committed the abominations and not their clean "spirit man" who is "perfected" and/or "trifected" in their god. Of old times this teaching was actually known as what was called Baal worship. The word ba`al actually means "master" or "lord" and in some contexts even denotes marriage, union, or refers to a husband, (as a master which the worshipper is wed to).

Jeremiah 3:14 KJV
14.  Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married (HSN#1166 ba`al) unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Jeremiah 3:14 RSV (Revised Standard Version)
14.  Return, O faithless children, says the Lord; for I am your master; (HSN#1166 ba`al) I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.


The places where the proper name occur are really the same word:

Original Strong's Ref. #1166
Romanized  ba`al
Pronounced baw-al'
a primitive root; to be master; hence, (as denominative from HSN1167) to marry:
KJV--have dominion (over), be husband, marry(-ried, X wife).

Original Strong's Ref. #1167
Romanized  ba`al
Pronounced bah'-al
from HSN1166; a master; hence, a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense):
KJV-- + archer, + babbler, + bird, captain, chief man, + confederate, + have to do, + dreamer, those to whom it is due, + furious, those that are given to it, great, + hairy, he that hath it, have, + horseman, husband, lord, man, + married, master, person, + sworn, they of.

Original Strong's Ref. #1168
Romanized  Ba`al
Pronounced bah'-al
the same as HSN1167; Baal, a Phoenician deity:
KJV--Baal, (plural) Baalim.

The false prophet spirit of Ba`al is the master of the two horns  ~
Two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon …


Daniel 8:6 YGB (Young's Literal Bible)
6.  And it cometh unto the ram possessing the two horns, that I had seen standing before the stream, and runneth unto it in the fury of its power.

Daniel 8:6 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
6.  Wayabo' `ad- ha'ayil ba`al haqranayim, 'sher ra'iytiy `omedlipney ha'ubal, wayarats 'elayw bachmat kochow.

   |0935| And he came
   |0000| to
   |0352| the ram
   |1167| ba`al - master of
   |7161| the two horns
   |0834| which
   |7200| I had seen
   |5975| standing
   |6440| in front of
   |0180| the canal,
   |7323| and he ran
   |0000| to it
   |2534| in the fury of
   |3581| his power





Revelation 13:11 KJV
11.  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 18:38:57 by daq »

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #23 on: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 04:47:15 »
If anyone wants to double check concerning the ancient and modern inner "spirit-man" teachings and the sharp contrast they teach between the soul and the "Spirit man" (which is Baal worship) simply copy the following search terms and paste them into your Google search box:

"Spirit man" Atma Buddhi Theosophy Rosicrucian

It is not my intention to destroy, malign, or discredit the personal character of anyone individually because of some perceived "competition" to prove who is right or wrong for personal gain as "gospel" has suggested on the previous page. However, this also is no casual matter and we are in fact commanded not "look the other way" or to wink at, or ignore, certain things of this nature. Perhaps it is a good thing after all that this thread has been posted.

Firstly the warning to all who would "turn a blind eye"  ~

Leviticus 20:4-6 KJV
4.  And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5.  Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.
6.  And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.


Concerning "familiar spirits"  ~

Leviticus 19:31 KJV
31.  Regard not them that have familiar spirits, (HSN#178 'owb) neither seek after wizards, (HSN#3049 yidd`oniy) to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 19:31 Strong's Ref. Numbers
31.
   |0408| not
   |3372| You must turn
   |0413| to
   |0178| 'owb
   |0413| or to
   |3049| yidd`oniy
   |0408| not
   |1245| You must seek
   |5930| to be defiled
   |0000| by them.
   |0595| I {am}
   |3068| YHWH
   |0430| your 'Elohiym


Original Strong's Ref. #178
Romanized  'owb
Pronounced obe
from the same as HSN0001 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father's name); properly, a mumble, i.e. a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar):

Original Strong's Ref. #3049
Romanized  yidd`oniy
Pronounced yid-deh-o-nee'
from HSN3045; properly, a knowing one; specifically, a conjurer; (by implication) a ghost:

Leviticus 20:6 KJV
6.  And the soul (HSN#5315 nephesh) that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, (HSN#178 'owb) and after wizards, (HSN#3049 yidd`oniy) to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, (HSN#5315 nephesh) and will cut him off from among his people.

Leviticus 20:27 KJV
27.  A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, (HSN#178 'owb) or that is a wizard, (HSN#3049 yidd`oniy) shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:27a TUA
27.  W'iysh 'ow- 'ishah kiy- yihyeh bahem 'owb 'ow yid`oniy mowt yuwmatuw!

"ba"   =   "IN"
"hem" (HSN#1992)   =   "THEM-THEY-THOSE"

"bahem"   =   "IN THEM"


Leviticus 20:27a
27.  And a man or a woman that has IN THEM an 'owb or yidd`oniy [is] dead, and shall be put to death!

So then: I sincerely hope and pray that everyone here is completely sure about what he or she believes concerning these things because they are of the utmost importance and are absolutely not casual things of little consequence if one is incorrect. And the only thing Yeshua ever stated to be in jeopardy was the nephesh-psuche-IMMORTAL SOUL.
  ::smile::

Offline JohnDB

  • The Force
  • *********
  • Posts: 117605
  • Manna: 192
  • Gender: Male
  • scarey isn't it?
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #24 on: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 06:49:10 »
OK...well...I am a bit different in thinking on all of this.

A spirit of a man or beast was made up of two parts.

One was our nature; what we were created to do...and we even read in scriptures that God guides man's paths to do certain things just as animals were created to be birds, or sheep or whatever.

the other part of a spirit was demeanor. Even in pets this is true as well. Some pets have a much more pleasant demeanor than others. (cats never have a pleasant disposition...dogs are always better  ::giggle:: ) A person's demeanor can change over time...usually an animal's demeanor doesn't.  Some are happy, lauging people and some are angry and serious and some are rather miserable and sad...and not just situational emotions either...they seem to find the reasons for their pet emotion regularly.

The heart of a person was thought of to be where a person's reasoning and emotions met up with their actions. This "heart" was very dependant upon a person's spirit....

Then the Soul of a person or animal was also made up of several parts
Mind, body, and spirit

A person's mind contained their heart (as described above)

your body...well...that was your physical body

And your spirit...well that contained many things.


Sooo

An animal doesn't have a heart...it can't reason.
An animal doesn't have a mind. All your memories and emotions and logic.

We obviously know that the animals have a soul/nepesh.
but that they are simple beasts acting on instincts.

And people are vastly different.

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #25 on: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 17:29:23 »
For the most part we agree JohnDB. And I never said that man was "equal to the animals" as some may now be thinking. However, we should not argue by the logic of man but rather by the Scripture. So just because man is created to have dominion over the animal kingdom does not necessarily mean that by default man also has a "spirit" over and above having a "soul" because the Scripture says no such thing regarding Adam when he was created. Those who apparently argue by logic have already proposed here the idea that "because man was created in the image of 'Elohiym and because man is above the animals it then necessarily means that man is a tripartite being with body, soul, and spirit." This however is merely the logic of man and is not Scriptural. The Scripture clearly tells us how man is created in the image of 'Elohiym: MALE and FEMALE he created them.

Genesis 1:26-27
26.  And 'Elohiym said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27.  So 'Elohiym created man in his own image, in the image of 'Elohiym created he him; male and female created he them.


Does anyone truly see "three parts" here? There is the "part" and there is the "counterpart" and there is no mention of any son or daughter. And in the heavenly kingdom there is neither male nor female according to the Scripture:

Galatians 3:27-29
27.  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Yeshua.
29.  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


This truly is the "great mystery" of which Paul speaks …

Genesis 2:21-24 KJV
21.  And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22.  And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23.  And Adam said, This is now (HSN#6470 pa`am) bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24.  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave [adhere] unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

23.
   |0559| And said
   |0120| the man,
   |2063| This (is)
   |6471| now finally
   |6106| bone
   |6106| from my bones,
   |1320| and flesh
   |1320| from my flesh.
   |2063| For this
   |7121| will be called,
   |0802| "woman"
   |3588| because
   |0376| out of man
   |3947| has been taken
   |2063| this.


Strong's Hebrew Ref. #6471
06471 // Mep // pa`am // pah'-am // or (fem.)
// hmep // pa`amah // pah-am-aw' //
from 06470 ; TWOT - 1793a; n f

AV - ...time 58, once 14, now 7, feet 6, twice 5, thrice + 07969 4,
steps 4, corners 3, ranks 2, oftentimes 2, misc 7; 112

1) stroke, beat, foot, step, anvil, occurrence
1a) foot, hoof-beat, footfall, footstep
1b) anvil
1c) occurrence, time, stroke, beat
1c1) one time, once, twice, thrice, as time on time, at this
repetition, this once, now at length, now...now, at one
time...at another
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=hebrew&stnm=06471

Original Strong's Ref. #6470
Romanized  pa`am
Pronounced paw-am'
a primitive root; to tap, i.e. beat regularly; hence (generally) to impel or agitate:
KJV--move, trouble.

Genesis 2:23 TUA
23.  Wayo'mer ha'adam, Zo't hapa`am (HSN#6470-71) `etsem me`tsamayuwbasar mibsariy lzo't yiqare' 'ishah kiy me'iyshluqachah- zo't.

"O for this beating, troublesome, thorn of agitation in my side! Alive; and constantly tapping at my side to come forth! Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because from the Man was taken this!"


Adam and Eve were ONE from the beginning:
Where is the so-called third person?

Genesis 2:24 KJV
24.  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave [adhere] unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.


There is the part and there is the counterpart:
And there is neither male nor female in the kingdom of heaven.




John 1:1-3 KJV
1.  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2.  The same was in the beginning with God.


Notice in the Greek Transliterated that the second time the word "theos" is written it is not capitalized. This is because the same word also means DEITY or DIVINITY.

John 1:1-2 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
1.  En arche en ho Logos, kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon, kai theos en ho Logos.
2.  Houtos en en archepros ton Theon.


The Literal Bible w/vertical Strong's #'s recognizes this FACT ~

John 1:1 LIT (Literal Bible w/vertical Strong's Ref.#'s)
1.
   |1722| In
   |9999| {the}
   |0746| beginning
   |2258| was
   |3588| the
   |3056| Word,
   |2532| and
   |3588| the
   |3056| Word
   |2258| was
   |4314| with
   |3588| -
   |2316| God,
   |2532| and
   |2316| deity
   |2258| was
   |3588| the
   |3056| Word.


Original Strong's Ref. #2316
Romanized  theos
Pronounced theh'-os
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with GSN3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:
KJV--X exceeding, God, god[-ly, -ward].

Original Strong's Ref. #4314
Romanized  pros
Pronounced pros
a strengthened form of GSN4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated):
KJV--about, according to, against, among, at, because of, before, between, ([where-])by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), X together, to ([you]) -ward, unto, with(-in). In comparison it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

John 1:1-2 TUA - Rendering
1.  En arche en ho Logos, kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon, kai theos en ho Logos.
1.  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [the side of] the Theon, and deity was the Word.
2.  Houtos en en arche pros ton Theon.
2.  This One was in the beginning with [the side of] the Theon.


Re: The Holy Spirit is The Father
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 02:00:52 PM »

"O for this beating, troublesome, thorn of agitation in my side! Alive; and constantly tapping at my side to come forth! Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because from the Man was taken this!"

In addition; man does not receive the Ruwach-Pneuma until John 3:3-5 when the man is "born from above" and YHWH give it him. Until that time: man has acquired the spirit of the world, (1 Corinthians 2:11-12 KJV).


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 18:31:44 by daq »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #26 on: Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 07:44:25 »
Daq's comment:
--------------------------------------------------------------

So you see BTR?
Both "p.rehbein" and "gospel" know and understand exactly what they are talking about and exactly what is at stake. However, the only real question in my mind is do they both know that the "spirit man" teaching is no different than entry level white witchcraft? The reason the pagans need a "spirit man" is so that they may blame their sins on the unclean "soul-man" carnal nature. Their so-called "spirit man" is considered clean and is the one who "communes" with their god. However, when they commit sin and iniquity, (and are caught red-handed at it) they will say it that it was their inclean "soul man" which committed the abominations and not their clean "spirit man" who is "perfected" and/or "trifected" in their god. Of old times this teaching was actually known as what was called Baal worship. The word ba`al actually means "master" or "lord" and in some contexts even denotes marriage, union, or refers to a husband, (as a master which the worshipper is wed to).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, when one runs out of reasoning, they turn to such as this.  It is a shame that people here must resort to these types of posts.  I assure you sir, regardless of how I may differ in beliefs from you, I would not accuse you of such behaviour.

This is really pretty simple and I see daq tries again and again to say that he is NOT saying something.  He acts as if he is the ONLY ONE who has provided scriptural evidence in this discussion.  The fact is his scriptrures do not in any way disprove the scriptural evidence I have offered on several posts here.

HERE IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO BELIEVE THAT MAN IS DICHOTOMUS:

1)  You must believe that man is a two part being, that being body and soul
2)  You must believe that animals are two part beings, that being body and soul.
3)  You must believe that either animals are as capable of reasoning and communication and fellowship with God as man, OR man is no different than the animals and eveything we have been taught from the Bible is a lie.
4  You must believe that animals (if they are the same as man) are also part of God's salvation plan and when Jesus shed His blood on Calvary's Cross, He not only established God's salvation plan for all mankind, but for the entire animal kingdom as well.

FOOEY!  That's the nicest way I can say it..........AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS...............FOOEY!

Man is a triune creation and only the most diehard disbeliever in the Holy Trinity who will go to their graves desperatly clutching onto their misguided theological ideology would even consider denying this.  My last post here is the most simple and direct proof that man is a triune creation..............see, the problem is, IF one refuses to understand the Triune God and denies the Holy Trinity, THEN ONE can only desperatly misconstrue scripture and translations and such to argue against triune man, for to do otherwise is to admit that their theologcal ideology is wrong from the beginning.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will post my last comment again, FYI to clearly show that their theological ideology does not stand up to the simplest of challenges.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the acceptance of the dichotomy idea is that it aligns us with the beasts.  Beasts (animals) have a "body" as do we, and I believe we can all agree on that...........soooooooo ooooo

1 down:  2 to go?  well, let's see.

We also know that beasts have a soul (as soul is described here in this study) for they can experience many of the same emotions as man.  Harris said it this way:

MAN AS DIFFERENTIATED
FROM THE BEASTS

The beasts have no such ability to touch God - they were never meant to "commune" with God - only man has this ability (or possibility). Indeed, if only the body and soul are taken into account, then the radical "animal rights" activists (as bizarre as they may seem) are correct when they say that there is little that differentiates man from the beasts - after all, beasts, just like man, think, reason, love, and hate and, ipso facto, they have a soul!

To say that they don't - that they just react to stimuli like plants - is asinine. Plants (which have only a body, but no soul) don't think, don't love, don't reason. Unlike the beasts and man, they only react to stimuli; they are still alive, but they don't have a soul, and surely they don't have a spirit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if we accept that beasts have souls as well as bodies, then we can agree that they are dichotomus, in that they are two-part creations.

2 down, 1 to go?  well, we'll see.

Now if as stated above the beasts of the earth are dichotomus, in that they have a body and a soul, and if we (man) also have a body and a soul, then there has to be ONE more thing that differentiates us from the beasts of the earth, for we are surely seperate from them because WE are aware of God.

Ergo:  Spirit.  If we have a spirit (which is the "likeness of God" in which we were created and breathed into us by God), then this becomes 1+1+1=3!

Triune Man:  Body, Soul and Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This continued denial of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is against everything the Word of God teaches.  Only those who have such limited vision and some unexplainable desire to do so deny the existance of the Holy Trinity.

I have laid out Scriptural evidence of the triune man and many times here the Scriptural facts have been posted of the Truth of the Triune God.  Any further discussion is moot as those here who deny the Truth of these will simply continue to confuse, confound and contrast Scriptures in hopes of muddying the waters of Truth to the point that no one will be able to see through to the saving Grace of God.....................



Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #27 on: Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 12:44:23 »
 ::eatingpopcorn:

Glad to have the option of being just an observing bench warmer in this discussion...

Thanks p!

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #28 on: Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 16:38:21 »
Daq's comment:
--------------------------------------------------------------

So you see BTR?
Both "p.rehbein" and "gospel" know and understand exactly what they are talking about and exactly what is at stake. However, the only real question in my mind is do they both know that the "spirit man" teaching is no different than entry level white witchcraft? The reason the pagans need a "spirit man" is so that they may blame their sins on the unclean "soul-man" carnal nature. Their so-called "spirit man" is considered clean and is the one who "communes" with their god. However, when they commit sin and iniquity, (and are caught red-handed at it) they will say it that it was their inclean "soul man" which committed the abominations and not their clean "spirit man" who is "perfected" and/or "trifected" in their god. Of old times this teaching was actually known as what was called Baal worship. The word ba`al actually means "master" or "lord" and in some contexts even denotes marriage, union, or refers to a husband, (as a master which the worshipper is wed to).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, when one runs out of reasoning, they turn to such as this.  It is a shame that people here must resort to these types of posts.  I assure you sir, regardless of how I may differ in beliefs from you, I would not accuse you of such behaviour.

This is really pretty simple and I see daq tries again and again to say that he is NOT saying something.  He acts as if he is the ONLY ONE who has provided scriptural evidence in this discussion.  The fact is his scriptrures do not in any way disprove the scriptural evidence I have offered on several posts here.

HERE IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO BELIEVE THAT MAN IS DICHOTOMUS:

1)  You must believe that man is a two part being, that being body and soul
2)  You must believe that animals are two part beings, that being body and soul.
3)  You must believe that either animals are as capable of reasoning and communication and fellowship with God as man, OR man is no different than the animals and eveything we have been taught from the Bible is a lie.
4  You must believe that animals (if they are the same as man) are also part of God's salvation plan and when Jesus shed His blood on Calvary's Cross, He not only established God's salvation plan for all mankind, but for the entire animal kingdom as well.

FOOEY!  That's the nicest way I can say it..........AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS...............FOOEY!

Man is a triune creation and only the most diehard disbeliever in the Holy Trinity who will go to their graves desperatly clutching onto their misguided theological ideology would even consider denying this.  My last post here is the most simple and direct proof that man is a triune creation..............see, the problem is, IF one refuses to understand the Triune God and denies the Holy Trinity, THEN ONE can only desperatly misconstrue scripture and translations and such to argue against triune man, for to do otherwise is to admit that their theologcal ideology is wrong from the beginning.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will post my last comment again, FYI to clearly show that their theological ideology does not stand up to the simplest of challenges.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the acceptance of the dichotomy idea is that it aligns us with the beasts.  Beasts (animals) have a "body" as do we, and I believe we can all agree on that...........soooooooo ooooo

1 down:  2 to go?  well, let's see.

We also know that beasts have a soul (as soul is described here in this study) for they can experience many of the same emotions as man.  Harris said it this way:

MAN AS DIFFERENTIATED
FROM THE BEASTS

The beasts have no such ability to touch God - they were never meant to "commune" with God - only man has this ability (or possibility). Indeed, if only the body and soul are taken into account, then the radical "animal rights" activists (as bizarre as they may seem) are correct when they say that there is little that differentiates man from the beasts - after all, beasts, just like man, think, reason, love, and hate and, ipso facto, they have a soul!

To say that they don't - that they just react to stimuli like plants - is asinine. Plants (which have only a body, but no soul) don't think, don't love, don't reason. Unlike the beasts and man, they only react to stimuli; they are still alive, but they don't have a soul, and surely they don't have a spirit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if we accept that beasts have souls as well as bodies, then we can agree that they are dichotomus, in that they are two-part creations.

2 down, 1 to go?  well, we'll see.

Now if as stated above the beasts of the earth are dichotomus, in that they have a body and a soul, and if we (man) also have a body and a soul, then there has to be ONE more thing that differentiates us from the beasts of the earth, for we are surely seperate from them because WE are aware of God.

Ergo:  Spirit.  If we have a spirit (which is the "likeness of God" in which we were created and breathed into us by God), then this becomes 1+1+1=3!

Triune Man:  Body, Soul and Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This continued denial of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is against everything the Word of God teaches.  Only those who have such limited vision and some unexplainable desire to do so deny the existance of the Holy Trinity.

I have laid out Scriptural evidence of the triune man and many times here the Scriptural facts have been posted of the Truth of the Triune God.  Any further discussion is moot as those here who deny the Truth of these will simply continue to confuse, confound and contrast Scriptures in hopes of muddying the waters of Truth to the point that no one will be able to see through to the saving Grace of God.....................





Who is the one that has pressed onward even after the truth was immediately presented in this thread? Who is the one that has continued putting forward now 2 pages of theology based on the foundation of an outright fabrication from the beginning of this thread? Anyone can read Reply#3 on the first page and see that "neshamah" is translated as "breath" 17 out of the mere 24 times it is found in all of the Scripture; anyone can see the fact that only 2 times is "neshamah" translated as "spirit" in all of the Scripture.

Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 01:53:22 PM »

Yet the word for Spirit-Wind is "Ruwach" and is employed 378 times out of which 232 of those occurrences it is translated as either "spirit" or "Spirit" including Genesis 1:2. And as already stated in Reply#1, and in multiple other places and threads in these forum boards: Adam is nowhere said to have been given "ruwach" when he was created.

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
1.  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit (HSN#7307 ruwach) of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Strong's Hebrew Definition for #07307
07307 // xwr // ruwach // roo'-akh //
from 07306 ; TWOT - 2131a; n f
AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4, vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=hebrew&stnm=07307

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7.  And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed (HSN#5301 naphach) into his nostrils the breath (HSN#5397 neshamah) of life; (HSN#2416 chay) and man became a living (HSN#2416 chay) soul (HSN#5315 nephesh).


Original Strong's Ref. #5301
Romanized  naphach
Pronounced naw-fakh'
a primitive root; to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate, blow hard, scatter, kindle, expire; figuratively, to disesteem):

Original Strong's Ref. #5397
Romanized  nshamah
Pronounced nesh-aw-maw'
from HSN5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:

Original Strong's Ref. #2416
Romanized  chay
Pronounced khah'-ee
from HSN2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:

Original Strong's Ref. #5315
Romanized  nephesh
Pronounced neh'-fesh
from HSN5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):

Therefore I stand by my statement: both you and "gospel" know exactly what you are doing. And I will add that the two of you appear to be disciples of your "spirit-man" over and above the Word. Who is this "spirit-man" anthropos-countenance anyways? Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms? That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Matthew 10:16-17
16.  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17.  But beware of the anthropos: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues.


Original Strong's Ref. #444
Romanized  anthropos
Pronounced anth'-ro-pos
from GSN0435 and ops (the countenance; from GSN3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:
KJV--certain, man.


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 17:08:51 by daq »

p.rehbein

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #29 on: Tue Aug 16, 2011 - 06:44:37 »
DAQ:  You have crossed a serious line and you must be held accountable for your words.  I quote your comment in "response #22" of this thread:
------------------------------------------------------------------------


So you see BTR?
Both "p.rehbein" and "gospel" know and understand exactly what they are talking about and exactly what is at stake. However, the only real question in my mind is do they both know that the "spirit man" teaching is no different than entry level white witchcraft? The reason the pagans need a "spirit man" is so that they may blame their sins on the unclean "soul-man" carnal nature. Their so-called "spirit man" is considered clean and is the one who "communes" with their god. However, when they commit sin and iniquity, (and are caught red-handed at it) they will say it that it was their inclean "soul man" which committed the abominations and not their clean "spirit man" who is "perfected" and/or "trifected" in their god. Of old times this teaching was actually known as what was called Baal worship. The word ba`al actually means "master" or "lord" and in some contexts even denotes marriage, union, or refers to a husband, (as a master which the worshipper is wed to).
====================================================


I think this quite well might be the most anti-Christian and un-Godly comment I have seen posted on the Forums.  The totality of the arrogance required to come on a Christian Forum and state that those who profess the Christians Faith are practitioners of witchcraft would flounder a battleship.  You have crossed a serious line here and are in gross violation of the rules of the Forums.

I strongly suggest you immediately post a rebuttle and apology for this absurd accusation.  As well, I suggest you reconsider your participation here on the Grace Centered Forums as you have shown with this statement that you do not believe in the Christian Faith.  Your outright "slam" of the Holy Spirit as being Pagan teachings and equating Christian beliefs to witchcraft is completely unacceptable.

As far as your being the "only one" to present "truth" in this discussion, nothing could be further from the truth and this statement of yours is the evidence of that.  I do not know what religious sect you belong to, however it is clear that whatever it's name, it does not accept the Christian Faith.  Possibly you could state the official name of your religious sect, who it's founders were and what your creed is.  There is no other way to interpret your comment than to realize that you have accused every person who professes the Christian Faith to be servants of the devil, for that is what those who are practitioners of witchcraft are.

It would be best if you were to explain yourself and immediately retract this accusation and apologize for having published it in the first place.

Just so we are perfectly clear and there is no misunderstanding, I am again posting an excerpt from Rule #6 of Grace Centered:

To have a "Christians only" forum, we need to define who can post. Therefore, we need a set of criteria that clearly defines who a Christian is for the purposes of posting. This is not for any other reason. We are not speculating as to a person's salvation, faith or beliefs. This rule is not intended to label a member as "non-Christian".

6.2 We do not expect members to accept or affirm this as a Creed as Grace-Centered recognizes no Creed but the Bible. We do, however, expect members to agree to the content below only because it is based on the Bible.

6.3 An Adaptation of The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references as it is based on the Bible):

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I expect your next post here to contain a sincere apology and a retraction of your statement.

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #30 on: Tue Aug 16, 2011 - 14:53:27 »
 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline JohnDB

  • The Force
  • *********
  • Posts: 117605
  • Manna: 192
  • Gender: Male
  • scarey isn't it?
    • View Profile
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #31 on: Tue Aug 16, 2011 - 20:36:38 »
I'm hearing crickets.

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #32 on: Tue Aug 16, 2011 - 20:41:07 »
Quote from: p.rehbein
DAQ: You have crossed a serious line and you must be held accountable for your words. I quote your comment in "response #22" of this thread:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you see BTR?
Both "p.rehbein" and "gospel" know and understand exactly what they are talking about and exactly what is at stake. However, the only real question in my mind is do they both know that the "spirit man" teaching is no different than entry level white witchcraft? The reason the pagans need a "spirit man" is so that they may blame their sins on the unclean "soul-man" carnal nature. Their so-called "spirit man" is considered clean and is the one who "communes" with their god. However, when they commit sin and iniquity, (and are caught red-handed at it) they will say it that it was their inclean "soul man" which committed the abominations and not their clean "spirit man" who is "perfected" and/or "trifected" in their god. Of old times this teaching was actually known as what was called Baal worship. The word ba`al actually means "master" or "lord" and in some contexts even denotes marriage, union, or refers to a husband, (as a master which the worshipper is wed to).
====================================================
I think this quite well might be the most anti-Christian and un-Godly comment I have seen posted on the Forums. The totality of the arrogance required to come on a Christian Forum and state that those who profess the Christians Faith are practitioners of witchcraft would flounder a battleship. You have crossed a serious line here and are in gross violation of the rules of the Forums.

I strongly suggest you immediately post a rebuttle and apology for this absurd accusation. As well, I suggest you reconsider your participation here on the Grace Centered Forums as you have shown with this statement that you do not believe in the Christian Faith. Your outright "slam" of the Holy Spirit as being Pagan teachings and equating Christian beliefs to witchcraft is completely unacceptable.

As far as your being the "only one" to present "truth" in this discussion, nothing could be further from the truth and this statement of yours is the evidence of that. I do not know what religious sect you belong to, however it is clear that whatever it's name, it does not accept the Christian Faith. Possibly you could state the official name of your religious sect, who it's founders were and what your creed is. There is no other way to interpret your comment than to realize that you have accused every person who professes the Christian Faith to be servants of the devil, for that is what those who are practitioners of witchcraft are.

It would be best if you were to explain yourself and immediately retract this accusation and apologize for having published it in the first place.


You have taken my comments out of context and my statement does not accuse anyone here of "practicing witchcraft". The statement asks the question of two people: "do they both know that the spirit-man teaching is no different?" and makes no accusation on the part of anyone being a "practitioner" of witchcraft. And what I explained that the pagans do with that same teaching is the truth concerning the pagans, (again: "Google it"). You yourself laid down the rules for the context of this thread when you stated the following comments to BTR. This is your own statement concerning the context of this thread and I also was abiding by and according to your request:

God is a triune being because He is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, the Holy Trinity, but you already knew that was what I was referring to when I said God was a Triune God.  I know you see God the Father and the Holy Ghost as one and not seperated in any way (or, at least that is what I have determined based on yours and others comments here).  If I'm correct, you believe there is God the Holy Spirit Father and Jesus..............and you know I and others believe in the Holy Trinity, however this isn't the idea of the OP, the idea being to discuss the triune man.

So when I said that we were created in God's image, yes, our eternal spirits are the image of God and not our earthly flesh.  However, as a triune being we have body, soul, spirit and that relates to God being a Triune God.  It's simply a comparison of how He is triune and we are triune as His creations.

It isn't the intent of this OP to debate the Triune God, but rather the triune man.  The debate concering dichotomy vs. trichotomy.  Yes, the two are related, however it is quite simple to stay with the discussion on the level of man (us).  There have been discussions aplenty concerning the Triune God and all have had their opportunity to express their beliefs on that issue.  What this OP is designed for is to discuss "man" and the debate as stated is with regards to man.

Thanks, again............



That is your own statement concerning this thread of which thread you are the originator and original poster. Therefore the context of my statement is not the Trinity or Christianity as a whole, or "everyone here" but rather the "Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy" of Man. My comments are within that context but you have now taken them out of that same context which you yourself defined.

Quote from: p.rehbein
Just so we are perfectly clear and there is no misunderstanding, I am again posting an excerpt from Rule #6 of Grace Centered:

To have a "Christians only" forum, we need to define who can post. Therefore, we need a set of criteria that clearly defines who a Christian is for the purposes of posting. This is not for any other reason. We are not speculating as to a person's salvation, faith or beliefs. This rule is not intended to label a member as "non-Christian".

6.2 We do not expect members to accept or affirm this as a Creed as Grace-Centered recognizes no Creed but the Bible. We do, however, expect members to agree to the content below only because it is based on the Bible.

6.3 An Adaptation of The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references as it is based on the Bible):

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
We look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I expect your next post here to contain a sincere apology and a retraction of your statement


This list I have already confirmed, (when apparently no one else was willing to do the same) and if you have any capability as a moderator whatsoever then you also saw where it was posted in the thread where "gospel" wanted to have someone else expelled from these forums, (sounds like a "witchhunt" to me).

I do of course believe in the Holy Spirit and both you and your counterpart already know that. The question concerning that topic is whether or not the Holy Spirit is indeed a "third personage" to be worshipped. The Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, and we know that they two, the father and the Son, they two are ONE. The Holy Spirit thus proceeds from/of the Father and from/of the Son. Yeshua is the express image of YHWH, there is therefore ONE express image of God. I would suggest to you that you stop forcing others to confess to your own personal imagery of what it means to be a "Christian", especially when there is a high probability that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and force others to do the same. Again, the list you have reposted here was already confirmed by myself at the following post:


Re: No Longer A Christian Forum or what?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2011, 10:30:23 PM »

Regarding this topic of "Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy" Paul teaches the same thing that I have stated herein. Man serves "the prince of the power of the air", "the god of this world", "the spirit of the world" until the time when a man or woman is born from above, just as I also have clearly already stated here in this thread. Man is not born-created with an "extra spirit" (ruwach) over and above his nephesh-soul, (which comes from YHWH) although man does come into this world with an "extra spirit" (ruwach) from the spirit of the prince of this world. Thus the third "spirit man" of which you speak is the spirit of this world and must be cast out so that we may receive the Ruwach HaQodesh Holy Spirit of YHWH 'Adonay.

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2.  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3.  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1 Corinthians 2:11-15 KJV
11.  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12.  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14.  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15.  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.


The "spirit of man" is the "spirit of the world". When one is truly born from above, as written in the Gospel of John Ch.3, then the "spirit of the world" and "old man sin nature" is cast out by our High Priest Yeshua with the very Finger of YHWH. We therefore do not receive again the spirit of this world but rather the Holy Spirit from above which proceeds from YHWH. Therefore man is purposefully created as a "dichotomous creature" in the beginning so as to be fit to receive the Ruwach HaQodesh, Holy Spirit of YHWH 'Elohiym, (the Father and the Son from the beginning) and only this way can any man be born from above.

You have once again misunderstood what was said, taken my statement out of your own well defined context, and added more to my statement than what was stated so as to now make it say something that it does not say: and now you use a perversion of what was stated so that you may justify yourself before men. If you must kill my testimony in these forums, so that you may appear righteous before men, then have come to their fruition the end results of your works which are already manifest before Christ Yeshua who searches the reins and hearts of all men.

1 John 3:14-15 KJV
14.  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15.  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Revelation 2:19-23 KJV
19.  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20.  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21.  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22.  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23.  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Glory to Yeshua

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #33 on: Wed Aug 17, 2011 - 01:17:06 »
John 2:23-25 KJV
23.  Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24.  But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25.  And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th

daq

  • Guest
Re: Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy
« Reply #34 on: Wed Aug 17, 2011 - 04:48:44 »
Amos 5:7-13
7.  Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,
8.  Seek him that maketh the Seven Stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: YHWH is his name:
9.  That strengtheneth the spoiled against the strong, so that the spoiled shall come against the fortress.
10.  They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly.
11.  Forasmuch therefore as your treading is upon the poor, and ye take from him burdens of wheat: ye have built houses of hewn stone, but ye shall not dwell in them; ye have planted pleasant vineyards, but ye shall not drink wine of them.
12.  For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.
13.  Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time.

Isaiah 30:25-33
25.  And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
26.  Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that YHWH bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
27.  Behold, the name of YHWH cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28.  And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the heathen with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.
29.  Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of YHWH, to the Mighty One of Israel.
30.  And shall make YHWH his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
31.  For through the voice of YHWH shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
32.  And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which YHWH shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.
33.  For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the melek it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of YHWH, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.


What is the true Biblical definition of a spiritual Sodomite? For I know of such a city full of spiritual Sodomites which cease not day and night to force themselves, their will, and their own vain imaginations and machinations upon the saints and the people of YHWH.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49.  Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50.  And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.


Re: Torah is Spirit!
Re: Two Bema Seats
Re: A Promised Son
Re: Desert Dweller Nomads
Re: A Troll?

« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2011, 10:58:55 PM »
Re: Revelation 12: The Woman and the Man Child
« Replies #1-19 on: June 26-30, 2011 »



Matthew 22:1-7
1.  And answered Yeshua unto them again, speaking by parables, and said;
2.  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made marriage-feasts for his son,
3.  And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the marriage-feasts: and they would not come.
4.  Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage-feasts!
5.  But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6.  And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7.  But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


::destroyingcomputer::  ::priest::  ::preachit::  ::reading::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th  ::oldman::
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 20, 2011 - 01:58:08 by daq »

 

     
anything