Author Topic: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?  (Read 3134 times)

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Offline TruthofYHVH

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Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:03:08 »
Jesus commends the Ephesians in the book of Revelation for rejecting men claiming to be apostles but were NOT. He actually goes so far as to call these men liars!!

Jesus is speaking to the Ephesians here:

“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil, And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.” Revelation 2:2

It always seemed a little odd to me that the NT shifts the focus away from the 12 apostles (men who lived with and knew Jesus), to Paul, a man who claimed his apostleship based on his own divine encounter. The book of Revelation goes on to re- establish the authority of the 12 in chapter 21:

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with TWELVE gates, and at the gates TWELVE angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the TWELVE tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had TWELVE foundation stones, and on them were the TWELVE names of the ***TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB***.

According to Jesus's own revelation, only the TWELVE had authority to govern over the TWELVE tribes!! If this is the case, why do Paul's letters make up 80% of the NT epistles???

Scott Nelson:

"Of the 22 times in the Bible where Paul is referred to as an "apostle", only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself! These two instances came from the same person. Not from Yahshua, or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14). Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas. By this time in the story, Luke would have been very accustomed to Paul calling himself an apostle, and he would no doubt have been in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record recognizing his apostleship!"

"Other than the twelve apostles who spent three and a half years with Jesus, no one other than Paul can be identified as having claimed for themselves the title of "apostle"."

So if Jesus claimed that the Ephesians had actually rejected Paul, there should be some evidence of this rejection. And guess what??? THERE IS!!
Below is the evidence in chronological order:

Evidence # 1-Paul claims his apostleship in Ephesus: 61 AD (give or take a few years)

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. Eph 1

Evidence #2 -Paul defends his apostleship while writing to Timothy (in Ephesus) 64-65 AD:

7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (the fact that he says "i am not lying" shows that some people were accusing him of such)

Evidence #3- Jesus commends the Ephesians for their rejection of the false apostles. 67-68 AD

“What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to EPHESUS, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” Revelation 1:11

2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; Revelation 2: 2

Evidence # 4- Paul claims that not only Ephesus…but ALL ASIA HAD REJECTED HIM!! 68-69 AD:

“This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me.”
2 Timothy 1:15

Ironically, it is Paul's own letters which have given us the most damning information regarding his apostleship.

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Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:03:08 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #1 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:06:49 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:12:26 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:18:30 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.


 So you believe a large part of Gods word to be a lie? Also you believe that Paul is a false apostle?
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:21:37 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:25:19 »
You dont believe this then?


2 Timothy 3:16

Amplified Bible (AMP)
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:25:19 »



Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:25:27 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.


 So you believe a large part of Gods word to be a lie? Also you believe that Paul is a false apostle?
Of course not. But I have a different definition of "God's word" then you do. I do not hold to the infallible catholic canon concept. Especially many of the NT epistles listed by Athenasius of Alexandria.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #6 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:27:38 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.


 So you believe a large part of Gods word to be a lie? Also you believe that Paul is a false apostle?
Of course not. But I have a different definition of "God's word" then you do. I do not hold to the infallible catholic canon concept. Especially many of the NT epistles listed by Athenasius of Alexandria.



 So if you are not saying that Paul is a false apostle or that His words in the Bible(Gods word)are wrong, then what are you saying specifcally?

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #7 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:29:32 »
You dont believe this then?


2 Timothy 3:16

Amplified Bible (AMP)
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),
I actually do believe that. I just have a different view on what "scripture is". When this verse was written, the only "scripture" was the OT. I could ask you the same question. Do you believe the law of Moses is "profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action)," or just the NT?

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:48:10 »
You dont believe this then?


2 Timothy 3:16

Amplified Bible (AMP)
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),
I actually do believe that. I just have a different view on what "scripture is". When this verse was written, the only "scripture" was the OT. I could ask you the same question. Do you believe the law of Moses is "profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action)," or just the NT?

 I believe that the whole Bible is the inspired word of God. I also believe and know that Paul was a genuine apostle. Do you?

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #9 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:50:11 »
You dont believe this then?


2 Timothy 3:16

Amplified Bible (AMP)
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),
I actually do believe that. I just have a different view on what "scripture is". When this verse was written, the only "scripture" was the OT. I could ask you the same question. Do you believe the law of Moses is "profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action)," or just the NT?

 I believe that the whole Bible is the inspired word of God. I also believe and know that Paul was a genuine apostle. Do you?
No. I am convinced he was a false apostle. I follow Jesus alone now.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #10 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 22:58:01 »
How sad that you discount so much of what God wants to say to you, and that you say such a blasphemous thing about a man who He himself called.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #11 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 23:01:55 »
How sad that you discount so much of what God wants to say to you, and that you say such a blasphemous thing about a man who He himself called.
I am only echoing the words of Jesus as I see them. I know how it must seem from your perspective though.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 23:05:14 »
On what grounds do you call my statements blasphemous? Paul is not God.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #13 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 23:56:42 »
On what grounds do you call my statements blasphemous? Paul is not God.


 Paul was called by God to write a large part of His Word, the New Testament. You claiming that His chosen apostle and much of the NT is false, is blasphemous. I expect that of non believer, but not of a Christian. Most of what God has said to us as Christians on to how to live is in the NT. 

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #14 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 12:44:32 »
I still haven't heard any response to the specific charges I have made.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 13:00:13 by TruthofYHVH »

notreligus

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #15 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 13:37:08 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Yes, and those like you are growing in number.   Too many Christians are blinded to this fact and when the Genesis 12:3 card is played they remain silent.   

Christ came to fulfill the Law.   He did.  The Mosaic Law and the 613 are obsolete.  Gone!   And the Law is not coming back for an encore as some are wrongly teaching.  The Law has been spiritually written in the hearts of Christians.   

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Hebrews 8:13  When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

You are not recognizing that Christ came first to the Jews and to fulfill the Law.   He came to change the program.   John the Baptist initiated the process and was baptizing Jews with a baptism of repentance such that they would be prepared for the program change.   

Paul was called to take the Gospel primarily to the Gentiles.  For 14 or 17 years (depending upon how you interpret it), Paul sat in waiting.  The Jerusalem Jews held on to their security blanket and demanded that all the proselytes be circumcised and mikvah immersed.   When Paul finally stopped waiting for Peter to come to him he eventually caught up to Peter and called him a hypocrite right to his face.  (Galatians 2:11.)   These Jews were still trying to strap the written Mosaic Law onto the backs of the Gentiles.   They were severely lacking in faith and even after having been taught by Christ for several years they went on with their self-righteous Law-keeping.   Paul had Jews and Judaizers constantly after him.  They were more of a threat to his life than the Romans ever were.   The epistles to the church at Thessalonica speak of how others had come in behind him and told them that Messiah was to set up His earthly kingdom at any moment.  Some had stopping working because they were waiting.   Paul admonished them to ignore the false teachers and get back to serving the Lord (and to stay out of the pagan temples).   

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 16:07:46 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Your corrupt and devilish doctrine is base upon assumption, and hatred of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Paul preached better than any man that has ever lived, save none!  I will debate you on this thread.  I will put together a post in the morning for you to answer.  For your information, concerning God's word, God does not depend upon man to preserve his word, he does so himself!

I am not here to defend Paul, but the witness of the word of God concerning this great apostle, who spoke according to the prophets of God, whom you do not know, if you reject Paul's witness.

A lover of the gospel that Paul preached so faithfully~Red Baker

Offline ForToday

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 19:45:25 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Your corrupt and devilish doctrine is base upon assumption, and hatred of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Paul preached better than any man that has ever lived, save none!  I will debate you on this thread.  I will put together a post in the morning for you to answer.  For your information, concerning God's word, God does not depend upon man to preserve his word, he does so himself!

I am not here to defend Paul, but the witness of the word of God concerning this great apostle, who spoke according to the prophets of God, whom you do not know, if you reject Paul's witness.

A lover of the gospel that Paul preached so faithfully~Red Baker
You are incapable of making a post without claiming doctrine to be "devilish" or "evil".   Why not just respond or debate instead of prefacing everything you see with such binding statements?

I'm not sure I understand your second stanza... what is he not getting of he rejects Paul's witness?

Offline ForToday

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 19:49:30 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Yes, and those like you are growing in number.   Too many Christians are blinded to this fact and when the Genesis 12:3 card is played they remain silent.   

Christ came to fulfill the Law.   He did.  The Mosaic Law and the 613 are obsolete.  Gone!   And the Law is not coming back for an encore as some are wrongly teaching.  The Law has been spiritually written in the hearts of Christians.   

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Hebrews 8:13  When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

You are not recognizing that Christ came first to the Jews and to fulfill the Law.   He came to change the program.   John the Baptist initiated the process and was baptizing Jews with a baptism of repentance such that they would be prepared for the program change.   

Paul was called to take the Gospel primarily to the Gentiles.  For 14 or 17 years (depending upon how you interpret it), Paul sat in waiting.  The Jerusalem Jews held on to their security blanket and demanded that all the proselytes be circumcised and mikvah immersed.   When Paul finally stopped waiting for Peter to come to him he eventually caught up to Peter and called him a hypocrite right to his face.  (Galatians 2:11.)   These Jews were still trying to strap the written Mosaic Law onto the backs of the Gentiles.   They were severely lacking in faith and even after having been taught by Christ for several years they went on with their self-righteous Law-keeping.   Paul had Jews and Judaizers constantly after him.  They were more of a threat to his life than the Romans ever were.   The epistles to the church at Thessalonica speak of how others had come in behind him and told them that Messiah was to set up His earthly kingdom at any moment.  Some had stopping working because they were waiting.   Paul admonished them to ignore the false teachers and get back to serving the Lord (and to stay out of the pagan temples).
Why would Jesus specifically say that he did not come to abolish the Law if that is what he did, in your eyes?  Would you say that heaven and earth have passed away?  Also, the Law was always supposed to be written on the heart, that is not an exclusive belief to the NT. 

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 21:03:28 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Your corrupt and devilish doctrine is base upon assumption, and hatred of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Paul preached better than any man that has ever lived, save none!  I will debate you on this thread.  I will put together a post in the morning for you to answer.  For your information, concerning God's word, God does not depend upon man to preserve his word, he does so himself!
I am not here to defend Paul, but the witness of the word of God concerning this great apostle, who spoke according to the prophets of God, whom you do not know, if you reject Paul's witness.

A lover of the gospel that Paul preached so faithfully~Red Baker
Wow Red. Thanks for the sober response. I will gladly debate you on any post you might make concerning Paul. I will be defending Y'shua and his 12 apostles. Looking forward to it!

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 21:33:23 »
Wow Red. Thanks for the sober response. I will gladly debate you on any post you might make concerning Paul. I will be defending Y'shua and his 12 apostles. Looking forward to it!


A bit off topic, I know, but you've mentioned the 12 apostles several times in this thread, so I'm wondering, who you consider those 12 to be? Is it the original 12 chosen by Jesus, including Judas Iscariot, or do you consider Matthias as the twelfth, or someone else?


Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 22:15:22 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Your corrupt and devilish doctrine is base upon assumption, and hatred of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Paul preached better than any man that has ever lived, save none!  I will debate you on this thread.  I will put together a post in the morning for you to answer.  For your information, concerning God's word, God does not depend upon man to preserve his word, he does so himself!

I am not here to defend Paul, but the witness of the word of God concerning this great apostle, who spoke according to the prophets of God, whom you do not know, if you reject Paul's witness.

A lover of the gospel that Paul preached so faithfully~Red Baker

Words in red say it all. God Bless you, Red, in this undertaking. I will pray for you right now.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 28, 2014 - 22:19:54 by raggthyme13 »

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #22 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 00:46:52 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

I wonder where you draw the line.
If you allow fallibility for the Torah, then which part is true and which part isn't?
The prophets predicted the coming of the Messiah, but how certain are you that their predictions were preserved correctly?

You say you believe in the words of Jesus. That's fine with me, but what is your basis?
Obviously the Torah and the prophets cannot be your basis as they may be imperfectly preserved.
But at the same time you do reject Paul for reasons that he contradicts possibly incorrectly preserved scripture.

See, I think your problem is lack of foundation.
You don't really know what to trust and who to trust.

So let me ask you, how do you even know there is a God?
For all you know the whole concept of God and His attributes is incorrectly preserved by men.

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #23 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 01:47:24 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

I wonder where you draw the line.
If you allow fallibility for the Torah, then which part is true and which part isn't?
The prophets predicted the coming of the Messiah, but how certain are you that their predictions were preserved correctly?

You say you believe in the words of Jesus. That's fine with me, but what is your basis?
Obviously the Torah and the prophets cannot be your basis as they may be imperfectly preserved.
But at the same time you do reject Paul for reasons that he contradicts possibly incorrectly preserved scripture.

See, I think your problem is lack of foundation.
You don't really know what to trust and who to trust.

So let me ask you, how do you even know there is a God?
For all you know the whole concept of God and His attributes is incorrectly preserved by men.

Exactly. And how do we even know if the gospel writers' properly recorded Jesus' words? Perhaps he taught something entirely different. Without faith in the goodness and sovereignty of God to preserve truth in a book for mankind, everything can now be questioned, from Genesis to Revelation.

Ultimately, it's a picking and choosing, based on their view.. they must discount Peter's epistles because he calls Paul a brother, and they discount Acts because Luke was a companion of Paul who cannot be trusted.. then you have to discount the gospel of Luke, and so on.

Their motive is plain.. to bring Christians under the law for salvation. They teach that only those who believe in Jesus Christ and obey Torah are saved. Some of them use Matthew 7:23 to say that those who Jesus calls "lawless" are those who have followed Paul's doctrine, because they ignore the context of these verses... which is "these sayings of mine" and charge Paul with licentiousness.

Jesus never taught obedience to Torah for salvation.. they will never prove this with His words. But He did teach obedience to Him (and the words God gave Him to speak when He came as the Prophet like unto Moses). And it isn't the obedience itself that saves a man, but true and biblical faith in Jesus Christ, the kind of faith which produces good fruit.

If Jesus is our Savior, Jesus is our Master. If the Son sets you free [from sin] you are free indeed. Free to serve God rather than self, free to walk after the Spirit in love rather than walking according to the flesh. Paul said to test ourselves whether or not we be in the faith... implying that those who do not have Christ in them (or Christ's words abiding in them) fail the test and are, according to Paul, considered reprobate.

It is all by grace through faith, biblical faith which works. Paul taught this in accordance with Christ and all the other apostles. Torah is Old Covenant.. they do not want people living in the New.. in fact, they believe the New Covenant isn't even in full effect. They are misguided men, whether willingly or unwillingly is for God alone to judge.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 01:51:59 by raggthyme13 »

Offline ForToday

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #24 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 03:41:55 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

I wonder where you draw the line.
If you allow fallibility for the Torah, then which part is true and which part isn't?
The prophets predicted the coming of the Messiah, but how certain are you that their predictions were preserved correctly?

You say you believe in the words of Jesus. That's fine with me, but what is your basis?
Obviously the Torah and the prophets cannot be your basis as they may be imperfectly preserved.
But at the same time you do reject Paul for reasons that he contradicts possibly incorrectly preserved scripture.

See, I think your problem is lack of foundation.
You don't really know what to trust and who to trust.

So let me ask you, how do you even know there is a God?
For all you know the whole concept of God and His attributes is incorrectly preserved by men.

Exactly. And how do we even know if the gospel writers' properly recorded Jesus' words? Perhaps he taught something entirely different. Without faith in the goodness and sovereignty of God to preserve truth in a book for mankind, everything can now be questioned, from Genesis to Revelation.

Ultimately, it's a picking and choosing, based on their view.. they must discount Peter's epistles because he calls Paul a brother, and they discount Acts because Luke was a companion of Paul who cannot be trusted.. then you have to discount the gospel of Luke, and so on.

Their motive is plain.. to bring Christians under the law for salvation. They teach that only those who believe in Jesus Christ and obey Torah are saved. Some of them use Matthew 7:23 to say that those who Jesus calls "lawless" are those who have followed Paul's doctrine, because they ignore the context of these verses... which is "these sayings of mine" and charge Paul with licentiousness.

Jesus never taught obedience to Torah for salvation.. they will never prove this with His words. But He did teach obedience to Him (and the words God gave Him to speak when He came as the Prophet like unto Moses). And it isn't the obedience itself that saves a man, but true and biblical faith in Jesus Christ, the kind of faith which produces good fruit.

If Jesus is our Savior, Jesus is our Master. If the Son sets you free [from sin] you are free indeed. Free to serve God rather than self, free to walk after the Spirit in love rather than walking according to the flesh. Paul said to test ourselves whether or not we be in the faith... implying that those who do not have Christ in them (or Christ's words abiding in them) fail the test and are, according to Paul, considered reprobate.

It is all by grace through faith, biblical faith which works. Paul taught this in accordance with Christ and all the other apostles. Torah is Old Covenant.. they do not want people living in the New.. in fact, they believe the New Covenant isn't even in full effect. They are misguided men, whether willingly or unwillingly is for God alone to judge.
What is faith?  Is it simply a head knowledge or mental ascension? 

Not sure who the "they" is that you are speaking about but I will say that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law of Moses but certain provisions were made that were foretold in the OT.  The atonement changed, but not the Law itself.  For example, Jesus being the red heifer sacrifice. 

Why do you think the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant and makes it obsolete?  Nothing in the Old Testament ever said that it would become obsolete or done away with and Jesus never said that it would either.  Paul even gave the gentiles OT Laws to follow!

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #25 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 04:12:29 »
You are incapable of making a post without claiming doctrine to be "devilish" or "evil".   Why not just respond or debate instead of prefacing everything you see with such binding statements?

First of all, I make many post without calling others position devilish, or evil~I very seldom to that, as a matter of fact.  I reserved those words very carefully, and without question, such people need to be strongly rebuke, for saying such things as this deceived spirit has said, concerning the word of God overall, and Paul in particular, by calling our brother Paul a false prophet, for if he is, so are we, for we believe in the gospel that Paul so gloriously and faithfully defended.   If anyone is false it is him, and those who support such teachings.

Second~You said:

Quote
what is he not getting of he rejects Paul's witness?

He is rejecting the only gospel under heaven whereby, one can be saved by.  You cannot say you believe in Jesus Christ, and at the same time, reject the gospel that Paul preached and defended, above any man that has ever lived in this world.  Consider how great this apostle was: "It was Paul that withstood Peter to the face, because of Peter's compromising spirit, of not wanting to offend some false brethren who desire to put a yoke around the Gentiles neck, and make them live as did the Jews;  and it was Paul, who rebuke him before others concerning Peter's waving spirit between free grace and works." It is recorded  by the Spirit of God for all to see and ponder, and to learn from.  Paul was not a writ behind the chiefest of any apostles, but right there among them, and greater in knowledge than any of them.  Which Peter more or less said, and confirmed when he wrote 2 Peter 3:16

"what is he not getting of he rejects Paul's witness?"~same thing you are not getting.  And let us see what those things may be.
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 04:20:24 by Red Baker »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 04:52:05 »
Wow Red. Thanks for the sober response. I will gladly debate you on any post you might make concerning Paul. I will be defending Y'shua and his 12 apostles. Looking forward to it!


A bit off topic, I know, but you've mentioned the 12 apostles several times in this thread, so I'm wondering, who you consider those 12 to be? Is it the original 12 chosen by Jesus, including Judas Iscariot, or do you consider Matthias as the twelfth, or someone else?

Never~here is what they believe:
WHO ARE

THE SHALUACHIYM ['Apostles'] OF YESHUWA' MASHIYACH?

NOTE: Shaluachiym is the plural of the Hebrew word shaluach which means authorised ambassador. The Christian word 'apostle' is a CORRUPTION.

THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE SHALUACHIYM OF YESHUWA' THE MASHIYACH ARE THESE:
(Matthew 10:2-4. Revelation 21:14)

(1) FIRST, SHIMEON wheat of the dove [Hebrew: bar yonah]
(Matthew 16:17)

(2) ANDREYAH his brother

(3) YAAKOB ['James'] the son of Zebedeel and (4) YOCHANON his brother

(5) PHILIP and (6) BAR TALMAY

(7) TAOWM ('Thomas) and (8) MATITYAH ('Matthew'), the former money-lender.

(9) YAAKOB ('James') Alupheyey and

(10) YEHUDAH ('Jude') the brother of Yaakob Alupheyey

(11) SYMEON the Kanaanite and (12) MATTITYAH ('Matthias') who replaced Yehudah ['Judas'].
(Matthew 10:2-4. Acts 1:13,26)

THESE TWELVE NAMES ARE THE ONLY NAMES OF THE TWELVE SHALUACHIYM (Revelation 21:14) OF THE RAM (YESHUWA' MASHIYACH)
RECORDED IN HEAVEN

" AND THE WALL HAD TWELVE FOUNDATION STONES, AND ON THEM WERE THE TWELVE NAMES OF THE TWELVE SHALUACHIYM OF THE RAM"
(REVELATION 21:14 emphasis ours)

and acknowledged by DISCIPLES OF YESHUWA' everywhere.

THE QUALIFICATIONS OF A TRUE AMBASSADOR

The QUALIFICATIONS of a TRUE SHALUACH OF YESHUWA' THE MESSIAH were spelled out by THE SHIMEON, when a successor to Yehudah from Kerioth ['Judas'] was appointed:

" Therefore of these men who have ACCOMPANIED us ALL THE TIME that Adon YESHUWA' went in and out amongs us; BEGINNING FROM THE IMMERSION OF YOCHANAN ('JOHN') until the DAY WHEN HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US, must ONE become a witness with us of HIS RESURRECTION"
(Acts 1:21,22 ).

THIS DIVINE TEST WAS APPLIED BY THE DISCIPLES AT EPHESUS
WHICH PROVED
THAT 'PAUL', BARNABAS, TIMOTHY, SIMON PETER (Acts 8:9), SILVANUS and OTHERS
WERE
FALSE SHALUACHIYM AND LIARS
(Revelation 2:2)

THESE LIARS FAILED TO MEET THE TEST SET BY SHIMEON Bar Yonah

THIS SAME TEST PROVES THAT EVERY 'POPE' AND OTHERS WHO CLAIM THAT THEY ARE AMBASSADORS 

ARE ALSO LIARS

********************
THE BELIEF OF THE TWELVE SHALUACHIYM OF THE RAM
(Jude 1:3. 1 John 5:1)



« Last Edit: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 04:59:14 by Red Baker »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 05:40:19 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Your corrupt and devilish doctrine is base upon assumption, and hatred of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Paul preached better than any man that has ever lived, save none!  I will debate you on this thread.  I will put together a post in the morning for you to answer.  For your information, concerning God's word, God does not depend upon man to preserve his word, he does so himself!
I am not here to defend Paul, but the witness of the word of God concerning this great apostle, who spoke according to the prophets of God, whom you do not know, if you reject Paul's witness.

A lover of the gospel that Paul preached so faithfully~Red Baker
Wow Red. Thanks for the sober response I will gladly debate you on any post you might make concerning Paul. I will be defending Y'shua and his 12 apostles. Looking forward to it!

You are welcome.  I rather defend the scriptures instead of a man, even though, the greatest prophet, apostle, teacher of the Gentiles that ever lived~and the latter is no doubt, why your folk so hate and reject this holy man of God.  But, not only Paul, but all who went unto the Gentiles to preached the precious word of God to us, you folk reject as false prophets, and all Christians as children of the devil~is not that not a true statement?  I have a few questions for you before we get started, and I would appreciate a straight forward answer, no beating around the bushes.

1.  Are you the the Disciples of Yeshuwa' the Messiah?

2. Do You and your religion believe in Jesus Christ, who came in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin?  You can answer yes or no, or elaborate. 

3.  Do you consider Christianity the religion of the devil? Mystery Babylon?

4.  Do you believe that Jesus Christ should be worship on the same level as the Father~ As we Christians believe? 1 John 5:20 Or, Do you believe that Jesus and God are one? Yet, also separate? As we Christians believe.

5. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is exalted as high a one can ever be exalt now on David's throne? According to Acts 2:34-37

6.  According to your own religion, do you believe in their confession: "OVER THE LAST TWO THOUSAND YEARS, THE FALSE PROPHET 'PAUL' AND HIS CHRISTIAN "DEMONS" (Revelation 18:2) HAVE BEEN "...SAYING (To the Jewish people); LET US GO AFTER OTHER ELOHIYM [Christian 'gods'] WHICH THOU HAST NOT KNOWN, AND LET US SERVE THEM" (Deuteronomy 13:2,3)WORSHIP SATAN 'Jesus Christ' SAY CHRISTIAN "DEMONS"

Is this you belief as well?

Start with these, and we will give a hundred more or so.

 
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 05:43:58 by Red Baker »

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 07:18:13 »
So basically you are calling 80% of the NT a lie and false, so you don't actually believe that The Bible is the true and inspired word of God. Is that correct?
I believe in the Torah, the prophets and Jesus's words only. Though I don't hold to the notion of infallibility for any Scripture. I do believe that the central pictures that God communicates are divine and eternal. But men have never been perfect at preserving God's word in my view.

Your corrupt and devilish doctrine is base upon assumption, and hatred of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, whom Paul preached better than any man that has ever lived, save none!  I will debate you on this thread.  I will put together a post in the morning for you to answer.  For your information, concerning God's word, God does not depend upon man to preserve his word, he does so himself!
I am not here to defend Paul, but the witness of the word of God concerning this great apostle, who spoke according to the prophets of God, whom you do not know, if you reject Paul's witness.

A lover of the gospel that Paul preached so faithfully~Red Baker
Wow Red. Thanks for the sober response I will gladly debate you on any post you might make concerning Paul. I will be defending Y'shua and his 12 apostles. Looking forward to it!

You are welcome.  I rather defend the scriptures instead of a man, even though, the greatest prophet, apostle, teacher of the Gentiles that ever lived~and the latter is no doubt, why your folk so hate and reject this holy man of God.  But, not only Paul, but all who went unto the Gentiles to preached the precious word of God to us, you folk reject as false prophets, and all Christians as children of the devil~is not that not a true statement?  I have a few questions for you before we get started, and I would appreciate a straight forward answer, no beating around the bushes.

1.  Are you the the Disciples of Yeshuwa' the Messiah?

2. Do You and your religion believe in Jesus Christ, who came in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin?  You can answer yes or no, or elaborate. 

3.  Do you consider Christianity the religion of the devil? Mystery Babylon?

4.  Do you believe that Jesus Christ should be worship on the same level as the Father~ As we Christians believe? 1 John 5:20 Or, Do you believe that Jesus and God are one? Yet, also separate? As we Christians believe.

5. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is exalted as high a one can ever be exalt now on David's throne? According to Acts 2:34-37

6.  According to your own religion, do you believe in their confession: "OVER THE LAST TWO THOUSAND YEARS, THE FALSE PROPHET 'PAUL' AND HIS CHRISTIAN "DEMONS" (Revelation 18:2) HAVE BEEN "...SAYING (To the Jewish people); LET US GO AFTER OTHER ELOHIYM [Christian 'gods'] WHICH THOU HAST NOT KNOWN, AND LET US SERVE THEM" (Deuteronomy 13:2,3)WORSHIP SATAN 'Jesus Christ' SAY CHRISTIAN "DEMONS"

Is this you belief as well?

Start with these, and we will give a hundred more or so.
Red. I would love to have this debate with you. But I am a little confused. Is this debate about Paul's authenticity or my personal religious beliefs? The reason why you are trying to have me go down a "belief" check-off list is because you think that mental beliefs can achieve salvation. This lie was founded by the early orthodox movement which was based solely off of Paul's teachings.

Here is what I will tell you about my "personal beliefs".

I believe in the Torah as the foundation of Scripture and living. (like Y'shua)
I believe in the Prophets
I believe in Y'shua's words as the Messiah/High Priest/King of Israel (note, some greek translations have made additions to his words over time)

You said: "According to your own religion, do you believe in their confession: "OVER THE LAST TWO THOUSAND YEARS, THE FALSE PROPHET 'PAUL' AND HIS CHRISTIAN "DEMONS""

I would never make a statement like this, or assume anything about anyones personal salvation. No matter what religion they are.

Let the games begin!


Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #29 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 09:39:09 »
Quote
I would never make a statement like this, or assume anything about anyones personal salvation. No matter what religion they are.

I copied and pasted word for word, without adding one word.  I said I prefer not to defend a man~base upon 1 Corinthians 3:5~The questions asked are reasonable questions and should be answer, if there is nothing to hide. But I will approach it in a different manner.  I will give you several reasons why we know Paul to be a true servant of Jesus Christ, and of God the Father.

1.  Paul preached Jesus Christ and him crucified as the only source of salvation from sin and condemnation.  Paul preached it in the purest form that could be preached under heaven, that would exclude all human merits as a means to be accepted before God.  Paul even rebuked Peter to his face for his inconsistency of standing firm upon the gospel that God revealed concerning the revelation of the new covenant.  Paul had a knowledge of the new covenant that excelled the other apostles, which is plain to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 2-4

Galatians 2:16

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

This is true of both Jews and Gentiles. All are under sin, thereby, under its condemnation.  Paul being a Jew, proved that all the world are sinners before God through Adam. Romans 5:12-19, and the only means to be free from condemnation, is by the obedience of one person, Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

Let us start with this point.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 04:29:49 by Red Baker »

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #30 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 15:03:41 »
Quote
I would never make a statement like this, or assume anything about anyones personal salvation. No matter what religion they are.

I copied and pasted word for word, without adding one word.  I said I prefer not to defend a man~base upon 1 Corinthians 3:5~The questions asked are reasonable questions and should be answer, if there is nothing to hide. But I will approach it in a different manner.  I will give you several reasons why we know Paul to be a true servant of Jesus Christ, and of God the Father.

1.  Paul preached Jesus Christ and him crucified as the only source of salvation from sin and condemnation.  Paul preached it in the purest form that could be preached under heaven, that would exclude all human merits as a means to be accepted before God.  Paul even rebuked Peter to his face for his inconsistency of standing firm upon the gospel that God revealed concerning the revelation of the new covenant.  Paul had a knowledge of the new covenant that excelled the other apostles, which is plain to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 2-4

Galatians 2:16

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

This is true of both Jews and Gentiles. All are under sin, thereby, under its condemnation.  Paul being a Jew, proved that all the world are sinners before God through Adam. Romans 5:12-19, and the only means to be free from condemnation, is by the obedience of one person, Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

Let us start with this point.
I disagree on every premise that you just stated. Let me know when you want to discuss Paul.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #31 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 15:20:55 »
There is no such thing as a "sin nature" in my view. The curse that all men inherited from Adam and Eve was DEATH not sin. Sin is a choice we choose to make, not a nature. The concept that we are all inherently guilty when we enter the world was Paul's quick fix sales pitch he used to get converts. Its a pretty basic sales pitch…first tell everyone they are going to hell just for being born, then, tell them that if they pray this prayer and "believe" like you that they will go to heaven. Unfortunately this is still the mode of operation for the modern church. Thats why most people in churches today don't have a passionate relationship with God. They only signed up in the first place was to get there "get out of hell free card".

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #32 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 15:52:22 »
Truth, I know Red answered my question about the 12 apostles, [LINK] but I'd still like an answer from you, if you don't mind.


Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 15:52:59 »
It's ridiculous, this idea that Paul preached salvation through some random and empty belief. He taught that those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with it's passion and desires. This agrees with Jesus.. He calls us to pick up our cross. As to Paul teaching a sin nature, he said he was alive once but when the commandment came sin revived and he died. How is that even remotely the same as saying men are "going to hell just for being born"?

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 15:58:42 »
There is no such thing as a "sin nature" in my view. The curse that all men inherited from Adam and Eve was DEATH not sin. Sin is a choice we choose to make, not a nature. The concept that we are all inherently guilty when we enter the world was Paul's quick fix sales pitch he used to get converts. Its a pretty basic sales pitch…first tell everyone they are going to hell just for being born, then, tell them that if they pray this prayer and "believe" like you that they will go to heaven. Unfortunately this is still the mode of operation for the modern church. Thats why most people in churches today don't have a passionate relationship with God. They only signed up in the first place was to get there "get out of hell free card".

Though many do preach exactly that, you cannot lay the blame at Paul's feet, because that is not what he taught.