Author Topic: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?  (Read 3133 times)

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Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:20:18 »
There is no such thing as a "sin nature" in my view. The curse that all men inherited from Adam and Eve was DEATH not sin. Sin is a choice we choose to make, not a nature. The concept that we are all inherently guilty when we enter the world was Paul's quick fix sales pitch he used to get converts. Its a pretty basic sales pitch…first tell everyone they are going to hell just for being born, then, tell them that if they pray this prayer and "believe" like you that they will go to heaven. Unfortunately this is still the mode of operation for the modern church. Thats why most people in churches today don't have a passionate relationship with God. They only signed up in the first place was to get there "get out of hell free card".

Though many do preach exactly that, you cannot lay the blame at Paul's feet, because that is not what he taught.
The concept of a "sin nature" was based only on Pauline doctrine.

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:20:18 »

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:24:29 »
Truth, I know Red answered my question about the 12 apostles, [LINK] but I'd still like an answer from you, if you don't mind.
What answer do you want from me?

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:31:47 »
It's ridiculous, this idea that Paul preached salvation through some random and empty belief. He taught that those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with it's passion and desires. This agrees with Jesus.. He calls us to pick up our cross. As to Paul teaching a sin nature, he said he was alive once but when the commandment came sin revived and he died. How is that even remotely the same as saying men are "going to hell just for being born"?
Not really. Y'shua warned us about this very thing:

  Matt 7:  21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Believe it or not, this "lack of Law" or "negation of Law" is in reference to the Law of Moses. This is the test for every Prophet that God commanded us to test them by. Anyone who teaches even against ONE law is to be considered a false prophet!

 Deut 13: 1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5“But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

This is the Test that Y'shua is referring to in Matt 7.

Offline Amo

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:35:38 »
Jesus commends the Ephesians in the book of Revelation for rejecting men claiming to be apostles but were NOT. He actually goes so far as to call these men liars!!

Jesus is speaking to the Ephesians here:

“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil, And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.” Revelation 2:2

It always seemed a little odd to me that the NT shifts the focus away from the 12 apostles (men who lived with and knew Jesus), to Paul, a man who claimed his apostleship based on his own divine encounter. The book of Revelation goes on to re- establish the authority of the 12 in chapter 21:

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with TWELVE gates, and at the gates TWELVE angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the TWELVE tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had TWELVE foundation stones, and on them were the TWELVE names of the ***TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB***.

According to Jesus's own revelation, only the TWELVE had authority to govern over the TWELVE tribes!! If this is the case, why do Paul's letters make up 80% of the NT epistles???

Scott Nelson:

"Of the 22 times in the Bible where Paul is referred to as an "apostle", only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself! These two instances came from the same person. Not from Yahshua, or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14). Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas. By this time in the story, Luke would have been very accustomed to Paul calling himself an apostle, and he would no doubt have been in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record recognizing his apostleship!"

"Other than the twelve apostles who spent three and a half years with Jesus, no one other than Paul can be identified as having claimed for themselves the title of "apostle"."

So if Jesus claimed that the Ephesians had actually rejected Paul, there should be some evidence of this rejection. And guess what??? THERE IS!!
Below is the evidence in chronological order:

Evidence # 1-Paul claims his apostleship in Ephesus: 61 AD (give or take a few years)

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. Eph 1

Evidence #2 -Paul defends his apostleship while writing to Timothy (in Ephesus) 64-65 AD:

7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (the fact that he says "i am not lying" shows that some people were accusing him of such)

Evidence #3- Jesus commends the Ephesians for their rejection of the false apostles. 67-68 AD

“What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to EPHESUS, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” Revelation 1:11

2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; Revelation 2: 2

Evidence # 4- Paul claims that not only Ephesus…but ALL ASIA HAD REJECTED HIM!! 68-69 AD:

“This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me.”
2 Timothy 1:15

Ironically, it is Paul's own letters which have given us the most damning information regarding his apostleship.

I take it then, that you do not accept the book of Acts or Luke as authentic either, correct? What do you make of the following statement made by Peter?

2 Pet 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Do you think Peter was ignorant of this knowledge you claim? Apparently it must have been so for he calls Paul his beloved brother, and condemns those who were wresting Paul's writings to their own ends. Certainly not the words of one who believed Paul's testimony to be false.

Perhaps some examples from you from Paul's writings, which you can prove false or contradictory to the words of Christ or the other Apostles, would make your position better understood. Without which of course, your position has no feet to stand upon. Please do share these contradictions and or falsities, that we may examine them ourselves for acceptance or rejection.



Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:40:59 »
Paul was clearly not a false apostle, but a man called by God for a very special and unique task of taking the good news to the Gentiles. He was also used by God to write much of the NT, and we as Christians are greatly blessed by what he wrote, and of the whole of the NT which is inspired by God. We are taught so much and learn so much about how to live as Christians by what God used Him to write.

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:40:59 »



Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #40 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:47:48 »
The concept of a "sin nature" was based only on Pauline doctrine.


Correction: The concept of a "sin nature" was based only on a corruption of Pauline doctrine.




Truth, I know Red answered my question about the 12 apostles, [LINK] but I'd still like an answer from you, if you don't mind.
What answer do you want from me?


Wow Red. Thanks for the sober response. I will gladly debate you on any post you might make concerning Paul. I will be defending Y'shua and his 12 apostles. Looking forward to it!



A bit off topic, I know, but you've mentioned the 12 apostles several times in this thread, so I'm wondering, who you consider those 12 to be? Is it the original 12 chosen by Jesus, including Judas Iscariot, or do you consider Matthias as the twelfth, or someone else?



Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #41 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 16:59:21 »

Believe it or not, this "lack of Law" or "negation of Law" is in reference to the Law of Moses. This is the test for every Prophet that God commanded us to test them by. Anyone who teaches even against ONE law is to be considered a false prophet!


Do you believe that Jesus came in the flesh and was God?

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #42 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 17:02:41 »
Jesus commends the Ephesians in the book of Revelation for rejecting men claiming to be apostles but were NOT. He actually goes so far as to call these men liars!!

Jesus is speaking to the Ephesians here:

“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil, And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.” Revelation 2:2

It always seemed a little odd to me that the NT shifts the focus away from the 12 apostles (men who lived with and knew Jesus), to Paul, a man who claimed his apostleship based on his own divine encounter. The book of Revelation goes on to re- establish the authority of the 12 in chapter 21:

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with TWELVE gates, and at the gates TWELVE angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the TWELVE tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had TWELVE foundation stones, and on them were the TWELVE names of the ***TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB***.

According to Jesus's own revelation, only the TWELVE had authority to govern over the TWELVE tribes!! If this is the case, why do Paul's letters make up 80% of the NT epistles???

Scott Nelson:

"Of the 22 times in the Bible where Paul is referred to as an "apostle", only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself! These two instances came from the same person. Not from Yahshua, or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14). Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas. By this time in the story, Luke would have been very accustomed to Paul calling himself an apostle, and he would no doubt have been in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record recognizing his apostleship!"

"Other than the twelve apostles who spent three and a half years with Jesus, no one other than Paul can be identified as having claimed for themselves the title of "apostle"."

So if Jesus claimed that the Ephesians had actually rejected Paul, there should be some evidence of this rejection. And guess what??? THERE IS!!
Below is the evidence in chronological order:

Evidence # 1-Paul claims his apostleship in Ephesus: 61 AD (give or take a few years)

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. Eph 1

Evidence #2 -Paul defends his apostleship while writing to Timothy (in Ephesus) 64-65 AD:

7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (the fact that he says "i am not lying" shows that some people were accusing him of such)

Evidence #3- Jesus commends the Ephesians for their rejection of the false apostles. 67-68 AD

“What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to EPHESUS, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” Revelation 1:11

2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; Revelation 2: 2

Evidence # 4- Paul claims that not only Ephesus…but ALL ASIA HAD REJECTED HIM!! 68-69 AD:

“This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me.”
2 Timothy 1:15

Ironically, it is Paul's own letters which have given us the most damning information regarding his apostleship.

I take it then, that you do not accept the book of Acts or Luke as authentic either, correct? What do you make of the following statement made by Peter?

2 Pet 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Do you think Peter was ignorant of this knowledge you claim? Apparently it must have been so for he calls Paul his beloved brother, and condemns those who were wresting Paul's writings to their own ends. Certainly not the words of one who believed Paul's testimony to be false.

Perhaps some examples from you from Paul's writings, which you can prove false or contradictory to the words of Christ or the other Apostles, would make your position better understood. Without which of course, your position has no feet to stand upon. Please do share these contradictions and or falsities, that we may examine them ourselves for acceptance or rejection.
Luke was most certainly fond of Paul. I don't hold that against his gospel personally. Luke makes it clear that he is not speaking out of "inspiration" or divine authority. 2 Peter was considered by many church fathers to be NOT written by Peter. I actually believe it was written by Peter. I would go so far as to say that Paul had sway over Peter for a time. Would you believe that Y'shua actually predicted that Peter would be lead astray by someone??

As far as Scriptural examples of differences..I recommend my other post.

Jesus and Paul's salvation models


Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #43 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 17:04:37 »
The concept of a "sin nature" was based only on Pauline doctrine.


Correction: The concept of a "sin nature" was based only on a corruption of Pauline doctrine.




Truth, I know Red answered my question about the 12 apostles, [LINK] but I'd still like an answer from you, if you don't mind.
What answer do you want from me?


Wow Red. Thanks for the sober response. I will gladly debate you on any post you might make concerning Paul. I will be defending Y'shua and his 12 apostles. Looking forward to it!



A bit off topic, I know, but you've mentioned the 12 apostles several times in this thread, so I'm wondering, who you consider those 12 to be? Is it the original 12 chosen by Jesus, including Judas Iscariot, or do you consider Matthias as the twelfth, or someone else?



Matthias is the 12th according to Luke. I believe likewise.


Offline Amo

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #44 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 17:15:51 »
Quote
The concept of a "sin nature" was based only on Pauline doctrine.

What do you make of the following scripture then?

Ps 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2  Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3  For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4  Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6  Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 ¶  Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

What do you suggest the change in us was, that made God decide to do the following?

Ge 3:22 ¶  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

If a couple of people just made a bad choice, but no significant change took place within them or humanity because of it, then why did God separate all humanity from the tree of life? This condemned all to death, though according to what you suggest, there would be no good reason to do so.





Offline Amo

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #45 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 17:19:15 »
Quote
Would you believe that Y'shua actually predicted that Peter would be lead astray by someone??

Would you care to expound?

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #46 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 17:21:49 »
Quote
Would you believe that Y'shua actually predicted that Peter would be lead astray by someone??

Would you care to expound?


I most certainly will, shortly. I am tied up for the next few hours.




edited to fix quote
« Last Edit: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 18:32:11 by Nevertheless »

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #47 on: Sat Mar 01, 2014 - 18:19:50 »
It's ridiculous, this idea that Paul preached salvation through some random and empty belief. He taught that those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with it's passion and desires. This agrees with Jesus.. He calls us to pick up our cross. As to Paul teaching a sin nature, he said he was alive once but when the commandment came sin revived and he died. How is that even remotely the same as saying men are "going to hell just for being born"?
Not really. Y'shua warned us about this very thing:

  Matt 7:  21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Believe it or not, this "lack of Law" or "negation of Law" is in reference to the Law of Moses. This is the test for every Prophet that God commanded us to test them by. Anyone who teaches even against ONE law is to be considered a false prophet!

 Deut 13: 1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5“But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

This is the Test that Y'shua is referring to in Matt 7.

YES! Deut 13 was crucial under the first covenant. Why? The children of Israel had wayward hearts, easily swayed from the commandments delivered unto them. They did not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them, they were not born of God nor were they made new creations.

A man MUST be born again, says Jesus.

Therefore, under the first covenant, they were commanded to test the prophets, they would be known by their fruit. If a prophet intended to draw them away from the LORD to worship other gods, they were to stone him. This is the way they would purge evil from among them. It is pure evil to draw men away to other gods. And since the unregenerate man is so easily seduced, they were strictly commanded to put all false prophets to death.

But we, the children of God through faith in Jesus Christ, are under a New Covenant, in Christ's blood.. and we who have trusted in Him have been born from above, made new creations.. given new desires. We are set free by the Son Himself.. Being led of the Spirit unto righteousness. Having all manner of sin forgiven. Having an advocate with the Father.. Jesus Christ the Righteous One. And this is all by His great grace!

Consider... Why would anyone need the written law when they have the Spirit of the living God dwelling in them?

John says those who believe on His name are given the right to become children of God, born not of the will of the flesh, but of God. The whole law is unto love.. loving God and loving others. That's why Jesus said on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. James calls this the law of liberty... the law of the Spirit, which is LOVE. John has a great deal to say about it in his epistles. The one who has the Son of God has life... and that one abides in love, for God is love.

The written law is for the unregenerate man, so that he may see the depth of his sin and grope for his Savior, that he may be justified by faith in Him. And having come to faith in the Son of God, he receives the Holy Spirit. There is no longer need for a written law, God writes His law of LOVE on our hearts.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #48 on: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 05:08:12 »
Quote
I would never make a statement like this, or assume anything about anyones personal salvation. No matter what religion they are.

I copied and pasted word for word, without adding one word.  I said I prefer not to defend a man~base upon 1 Corinthians 3:5~The questions asked are reasonable questions and should be answer, if there is nothing to hide. But I will approach it in a different manner.  I will give you several reasons why we know Paul to be a true servant of Jesus Christ, and of God the Father.

1.  Paul preached Jesus Christ and him crucified as the only source of salvation from sin and condemnation.  Paul preached it in the purest form that could be preached under heaven, that would exclude all human merits as a means to be accepted before God.  Paul even rebuked Peter to his face for his inconsistency of standing firm upon the gospel that God revealed concerning the revelation of the new covenant.  Paul had a knowledge of the new covenant that excelled the other apostles, which is plain to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 2-4

Galatians 2:16

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

This is true of both Jews and Gentiles. All are under sin, thereby, under its condemnation.  Paul being a Jew, proved that all the world are sinners before God through Adam. Romans 5:12-19, and the only means to be free from condemnation, is by the obedience of one person, Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

Let us start with this point.

Well, you really never attempted to answer the main thrust of my post, which could be summed up in these words: 1.  Paul preached Jesus Christ and him crucified as the only source of salvation from sin and condemnation.  Paul preached it in the purest form that could be preached under heaven, that would exclude all human merits as a means to be accepted before God.  Paul even rebuked Peter to his face for his inconsistency of standing firm upon the gospel that God revealed concerning the revelation of the new covenant.  Paul had a knowledge of the new covenant that excelled the other apostles, which is plain to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 2-4 

By saying what Paul preached is discussing about the person of Paul.  You are avoiding statements concerning JESUS CHRISTDO YOU believe in the Jesus whom Paul preached? Acts 9:27,29; 13:23,33; 16:18,31; 17:3,7,18; 18:5,28; 19:4,5,10,13,1517: 20:21,24,35; 21:31; 22:8; 25:19; 26,15; 28:31

Jesus whom Paul preached is no different from the other apostles~Do you agree? Jesus whom Paul preached was he that the OT prophets prophesied that was to come~Do you agree? Paul used the OT scriptures to support his NT teachings~do you agree? Romans 16:26

The NT scriptures are nothing more than a revelation of the hidden truths from the OT scriptures? Do you agree? Paul constantly was saying: "it is written", Or the scriptures foreseeing, or the scriptures hath concluded, etc."~Galatians 3:8;9,16,22.   There is a perfect agreement between the OT and the NT scriptures, and both are absolutely needed to fully understand all doctrines that are therein.  Prove Paul to to be true or false base upon what is written in the scriptures, not outside of them.

For now, let me also say that when when I said all where under sin, I said no more than what is written! Romans 3:9, and it is because of us being in Adam both Jews and Gentiles, that made it so.  To be under sin, is to be under it condemnation, because of sin.  Why do infants die? (Romans 5:14)  Adam's sin enters into us, or becomes ours; upon which death follows: that is, death has entered into the world of men by sin, by the first sin of the first man; not only corporeal death, but a spiritual or moral one, man, in consequence of this, becoming "dead in sin", deprived of righteousness, and averse, and impotent to all that is good; and also an eternal death, to which he is liable; for "the wages of sin is death", ( Romans 6:23 ) ; even eternal death: all mankind are in a legal sense dead, the sentence of condemnation and death immediately passed on Adam as soon as he had sinned, and upon all his posterity;and so death passed upon all men; the reason of which was, for that, or because "in him" and death by sin~all men were naturally and seminally in him; as he was the common parent of mankind, he had all human nature in him, and was also the covenant head, and representative of all his posterity; so that they were in him both naturally and federally, and so "sinned in him"; and fell with him by his first transgression into condemnation and death. Romans 5:12-21
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 06:18:14 by Red Baker »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #49 on: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 08:42:14 »
Quote
I most certainly will, shortly. I am tied up for the next few hours.

Before Paul was converted to the truth, he believed and taught just as you do now, but once converted to the truth, he for the first time, he understood the hope of Israel~Acts 28:20 and through whom it was to be fulfilled, and to whom it included! I will prepare a post for in the morning concerning who was this man that persecuted the church and hated them before his conversion to be their strongest champion, and supporter.   

Another point~The scriptures said more than once, that the gospel was to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles.  I affirm that this was fully fulfilled starting with Abraham and ended with the original twelve apostles~Acts 1:26 To the Jews first, means nothing more than with whom God first begin to reveal himself to, and it means no more than that. Those people who believe that first means that the natural Jews are a special people in his sight above other people of this world, are deceived by the devil~ first to them means that they as a race of people have a preeminence over other races! Nothing can be farther from the truth.  To the Jews first, simply means that God first begin to reveal himself to them, but NOW he is doing so to us Gentiles, even though a few Jews are part of the NT church, but only a few, just as only a few Gentiles were converted to the truth in the OT.  He used that nation to shadowed forth his true nation, and those who are true spiritual Jews, by the Spirit of the Living God~having Jewish blood in one's veins means nothing in God's sight~but those who are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, are the apple of his Holy eye.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 12:58:31 by Red Baker »

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #50 on: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 13:32:03 »
Paul taught Jesus's sacrifice did away with the Law of Moses. This is the opposite of what Jesus himself taught. Paul never knew Jesus! His claim of knowing him was based off of his own spiritual vision. Paul speaks very negatively about the actual apostles on numerous occasions. I will go into each of them shortly. James's letter was a response to the corrupt doctrines that Paul was teaching gentiles everywhere he went. Jesus commanded his true Apostles to follow ONLY Him. They were not even allowed to be called teachers. They were only to point to the one and only teacher and Rabbi we should listen to. Just as a fun exercise, can anyone tell me how many times Paul actually quotes Jesus's words or sayings or teachings or parables?
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 13:34:23 by TruthofYHVH »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #51 on: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 13:48:40 »
Quote
Just as a fun exercise,

I am not interesting in fun exercises, but, the truth.  You have not addressed not even one point.  So, do you believe that Paul preached another jesus? I will address every every point that you give, if you will make a conscience effort to answer some questions above that were asked of you.   

Quote
can anyone tell me how many times Paul actually quotes Jesus's words or sayings or teachings

I am going to at least give you more than you have given to me: 1 Corinthians 11:23~ "For I HAVE RECEIVED of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:"
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 14:01:53 by Red Baker »

notreligus

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #52 on: Sun Mar 02, 2014 - 16:03:03 »
Paul taught Jesus's sacrifice did away with the Law of Moses. This is the opposite of what Jesus himself taught. Paul never knew Jesus! His claim of knowing him was based off of his own spiritual vision. Paul speaks very negatively about the actual apostles on numerous occasions. I will go into each of them shortly. James's letter was a response to the corrupt doctrines that Paul was teaching gentiles everywhere he went. Jesus commanded his true Apostles to follow ONLY Him. They were not even allowed to be called teachers. They were only to point to the one and only teacher and Rabbi we should listen to. Just as a fun exercise, can anyone tell me how many times Paul actually quotes Jesus's words or sayings or teachings or parables?
Gal 1:1  Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Gal 1:2  and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4  who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Gal 1:5  to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7  not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9  As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10  For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11  For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.
Gal 1:12  For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13  For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
Gal 1:14  And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15  But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16  was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;
Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19  But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20  (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)
Gal 1:21  Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
Gal 1:22  And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
Gal 1:23  They only were hearing it said, "He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."
Gal 1:24  And they glorified God because of me.

Gal 2:1  Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.
Gal 2:2  I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.
Gal 2:3  But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
Gal 2:4  Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—
Gal 2:5  to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
Gal 2:6  And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.
Gal 2:7  On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised
Gal 2:8  (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),
Gal 2:9  and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Gal 2:10  Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Gal 2:11  But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal 2:12  For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
Gal 2:13  And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

Christ taught Paul.  Every word he uttered came from Christ!   

The circumcision were proclaiming a distortion of the Gospel.   

Christ is our Great High Priest and the Levitical priesthood has been retired.   The Law has become obsolete.   Can Moses stand before the Father and point to his own righteousness as that which is imputed to the Believer?   Did Moses reconcile all of mankind to God?   


Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:1  Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
Heb 9:2  For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place.
Heb 9:3  Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
Heb 9:4  having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Heb 9:5  Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6  These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7  but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Heb 9:8  By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9  (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Heb 9:10  but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11  But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12  he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14  how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15  Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16  For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17  For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18  Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19  For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20  saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21  And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22  Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23  Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24  For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25  Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26  for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27  And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28  so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #53 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 07:16:45 »
Paul taught Jesus's sacrifice did away with the Law of Moses. This is the opposite of what Jesus himself taught. Paul never knew Jesus! His claim of knowing him was based off of his own spiritual vision. Paul speaks very negatively about the actual apostles on numerous occasions. I will go into each of them shortly. James's letter was a response to the corrupt doctrines that Paul was teaching gentiles everywhere he went. Jesus commanded his true Apostles to follow ONLY Him. They were not even allowed to be called teachers. They were only to point to the one and only teacher and Rabbi we should listen to. Just as a fun exercise, can anyone tell me how many times Paul actually quotes Jesus's words or sayings or teachings or parables?
Gal 1:1  Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Gal 1:2  and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4  who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Gal 1:5  to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7  not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9  As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10  For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11  For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.
Gal 1:12  For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13  For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
Gal 1:14  And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15  But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16  was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;
Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19  But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20  (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)
Gal 1:21  Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
Gal 1:22  And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
Gal 1:23  They only were hearing it said, "He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."
Gal 1:24  And they glorified God because of me.

Gal 2:1  Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.
Gal 2:2  I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.
Gal 2:3  But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
Gal 2:4  Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—
Gal 2:5  to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
Gal 2:6  And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.
Gal 2:7  On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised
Gal 2:8  (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),
Gal 2:9  and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Gal 2:10  Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Gal 2:11  But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal 2:12  For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
Gal 2:13  And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

Christ taught Paul.  Every word he uttered came from Christ!   

The circumcision were proclaiming a distortion of the Gospel.   

Christ is our Great High Priest and the Levitical priesthood has been retired.   The Law has become obsolete.   Can Moses stand before the Father and point to his own righteousness as that which is imputed to the Believer?   Did Moses reconcile all of mankind to God?   


Heb 8:13  In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:1  Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
Heb 9:2  For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place.
Heb 9:3  Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
Heb 9:4  having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Heb 9:5  Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6  These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7  but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Heb 9:8  By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9  (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Heb 9:10  but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11  But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12  he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14  how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15  Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16  For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17  For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18  Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19  For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20  saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21  And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22  Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23  Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24  For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25  Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26  for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27  And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28  so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
You brought up some really good points with these verses you mentioned. Can you find anywhere Jesus says something even close to this?

So you are saying that God freed us from the law of Moses now…correct?

Then why do you pick and choose different laws from the Law of Moses to keep still??

I assume you still believe in:

- love the lord with all your heart
-love your neighbor as yourself
-Honor your father and mother
-Feeding the orphans and widows
-Marriage
-prohibitions against evil speech
-prohibitions against homosexuality
-against fornication

the list goes on!  It seems that most Christians STILL believe in the law of Moses. They just pick and choose which ones to follow based off of their own presuppositions. You may want to check out this "end times" verse from Malachi:

 Malachi 4:1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.
      4“Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

Looks like the Law will still be in force even when Jesus returns!! No matter what Paul says!

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #54 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 07:33:33 »
Quote
Would you believe that Y'shua actually predicted that Peter would be lead astray by someone??


Would you care to expound?
Sorry for taking so long to get back. Crazy weekend. For sake of time, I would suggest that you read my good friends take on Peter's relationship with Paul.

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/yahshua's.htm

I don't usually like to just send people links but Y'shua's prophecy about Peter takes some time to unravel.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #55 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 08:07:17 »
Quote
So you are saying that God freed us from the law of Moses now…correct?

Every one for who Christ died for have been delivered from the law; (Romans 7:4)~free from sin; (Romans 6:7,18); we are not under the law; (Romans 6:14;) but under grace;

The sense of these things are this: The seed of Jesus Christ are not under the condemnation of the law~Romans 8:1; we have been free from the wages of sin, which is death.  The seed of Jesus Christ trust in the grace of God that provided for us a Saviour in Jesus Christ, and through his obedience and righteousness, has given unto us the gift of eternal life.

Now, do we make void God's law through Christ, God forbid, but we establish the Law, and declare with all our might its spirituality, Holiness, and its good purpose.  Romans 3:31; Romans 7:12; and by the new man within, delight in and serve it~Romans 7:22~but the more we understand it righteous commandments, the more so do we see just how wicked we really are, and cry out to God and say:

Romans 7:24

"O wretched man that I AM! who shall deliver me from this body of death

And the answer is:

Romans 7:25

"I thank God through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.  So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Sin is called a law because of its powerful working within the very best and godly saint!  That is the truth of the word of God.

Quote
Looks like the Law will still be in force even when Jesus returns!! No matter what Paul says!

You do not know how to properly interpret Paul's teachings.  You need to learn Nehemiah 8:8 from your OT scriptures~then maybe you can see more clearly, maybe!
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 08:15:32 by Red Baker »

AVZ

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #56 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 08:30:55 »
Paul taught Jesus's sacrifice did away with the Law of Moses. This is the opposite of what Jesus himself taught. Paul never knew Jesus! His claim of knowing him was based off of his own spiritual vision. Paul speaks very negatively about the actual apostles on numerous occasions. I will go into each of them shortly. James's letter was a response to the corrupt doctrines that Paul was teaching gentiles everywhere he went. Jesus commanded his true Apostles to follow ONLY Him. They were not even allowed to be called teachers. They were only to point to the one and only teacher and Rabbi we should listen to. Just as a fun exercise, can anyone tell me how many times Paul actually quotes Jesus's words or sayings or teachings or parables?

Whats this fuzz of Paul all about? The gospel is still the gospel, with or without Paul.
Logically Paul didn't quote Jesus that much because he wasn't there remember? Paul was not one of the twelve.

Nobody here is forcing you to believe in Paul. Peter is not asking you to believe in Paul, and Paul is not asking you to believe in Peter.
Luke is not asking you to believe in either Peter or Paul, and Paul doesn't want you to believe in Paul, and neither does Peter want you to believe in Peter.

All of them are asking you to believe in Jesus.

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #57 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:23:51 »
Malachi 4:1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.
      4“Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

Looks like the Law will still be in force even when Jesus returns!! No matter what Paul says!



You didn't read that last verse very carefully, did you?

Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

We are not Israel. We do not have to become part of Israel to be part of the new covenant. James, along with the rest of the church at Jerusalem made that quite clear.


Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #58 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:39:47 »
Quote
      4“Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

There were indeed many such statues and ordinances that were limited for the nation of Israel only, of which was a figure for the time then present~(Hebrews 9)

The law which was summed up in the ten commandments are a perfect standard of righteousness to follow after under both covenants.  But, as Paul said, the law was never given to give life, but serves other godly purposes~ one main reason is to be a schoolmaster for God's children to cause them to trust totally in Christ for their righteousness! 
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:44:11 by Red Baker »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #59 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 09:46:55 »
Paul taught Jesus's sacrifice did away with the Law of Moses. This is the opposite of what Jesus himself taught. Paul never knew Jesus! His claim of knowing him was based off of his own spiritual vision. Paul speaks very negatively about the actual apostles on numerous occasions. I will go into each of them shortly. James's letter was a response to the corrupt doctrines that Paul was teaching gentiles everywhere he went. Jesus commanded his true Apostles to follow ONLY Him. They were not even allowed to be called teachers. They were only to point to the one and only teacher and Rabbi we should listen to. Just as a fun exercise, can anyone tell me how many times Paul actually quotes Jesus's words or sayings or teachings or parables?

Whats this fuzz of Paul all about? The gospel is still the gospel, with or without Paul.
Logically Paul didn't quote Jesus that much because he wasn't there remember? Paul was not one of the twelve.

Nobody here is forcing you to believe in Paul. Peter is not asking you to believe in Paul, and Paul is not asking you to believe in Peter.
Luke is not asking you to believe in either Peter or Paul, and Paul doesn't want you to believe in Paul, and neither does Peter want you to believe in Peter.

All of them are asking you to believe in Jesus.
 


Amen, and we don't need to defend Paul to any man,  because God Himself chose him, and for the very special and unique job of taking the gospel to the gentile world. Also to write a very very large section of the Bible which is the inspired word of God. 
I am very very sad and troubled that someone is allowed to say that 90% of the NT is false and still be able to remain on a Christian forum, but it says a lot about how far 'Christian' beliefs have been compromised from what they should be.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #60 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 12:39:10 »
Paul's pagan influences:

Kicks Against the Pricks
Euripides :  "kicks against the pricks" (Euripides, Bacchae.)
Aeschylus:. "kicks against the pricks." (Aeschylus, Agamemnon 1624.)
Acts 26:13 "kicks against the pricks" (Luke quoting Paul's vision account)
Note on Euripides: The context is that Dionysus discards his divine nature and walks in the human world disguised…Dionysus, the god disguised in human form, tells him that his efforts to resist the new movement will be completely worthless; he is not contending against flesh and blood, but against a god. “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks” [From Euripides, The Bacchae]. Source:


'We are indeed His Offspring' and "in thee we live and move and have our being"
Aratus : "for we are indeed his offspring." (Aratus, Phenomenae / Phainomena 1-5)
Epimenides (6th Century BC):  "for in thee we live and move and have our being." (About Zeus)
Acts 17:28 - Paul teaches: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."   


'Cretans Are Always Liars'
Epimenides "the Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies...." (Epimenides, Cretica -- a poem scolding the Cretans for making a tomb to Zeus because Epimenides believed Zeus to be eternal.)

Titus 1:12 "One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own said, The Cretans [are] always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies…."


First learn Piety at Home
Publius Terentius Afer (Terence) (Latin comedy writer) 190 BC: "But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home." (Andria Act IV -- at this link pp 34-44.)

1 Tim 5:4  "But if any widow have children or nephews let them learn first to show piety at home"

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #61 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 15:54:04 »
Quote
Paul's pagan influences: Kicks Against the Pricks

Kicks Against the Pricks~ It is a proverbial expression, taken from beasts that are goaded, who kick against the goads or pricks, and hurt themselves the more thereby; and Christ used it, not Paul, suggesting hereby, that should Saul go on to persecute him and his people, to oppose his Gospel, and the strong evidence of it, in doctrine and miracles, and notwithstanding the present remonstrances made in such an extraordinary manner; he would find himself in the issue greatly hurt by it, and could not rationally expect to succeed against so powerful a person

Your hatred is not toward Paul, but toward Jesus Christ and his gospel, whom Paul so faithfully preached.  Let us be honest.  What should we expect from a man who uses the word of God to put on a false front of believing the scriptures.  You have made no attempt to answer any post that I have given to you.

Quote
'We are indeed His Offspring' and "in thee we live and move and have our being"

Paul was not trying to influence anyone toward Paganism, but was using their own people to turned them from their deep ignorance of God, as he notice an inscription of them to "To the UNKNOWN GOD"~ what Paul quoted from one of their own poets is very much true according to the teachings of the word of God.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being~The natural life which men live is from God; and they are supported in it by him; and from him they have all the comforts and blessings of life; and all motions, whether external or internal, of body or of mind, are of God, and none of them are without the concourse of his providence, and strength assistance from him; though the disorder and irregularity of these motions, whereby they become sinful, are of themselves, or of the devil; and their being, and the maintenance of it, and continuance in it, are all owing to the power and providence of God.  Is this Paganism?  I think not.  Your reasoning is sinful and wicked toward the word of God, and toward the champion of Christianity, which trumps Judaism any day of the week. 

Your other two are a pitiful and desperate attempt to find fault with Paul, but more so with the word of God, which you so much desire to discredit.  But you will be long gone soon, and the scriptures will still be standing firm, as much as ever; heaven and earth shall passed away, but God's faithful witness will never pass away.     
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 16:04:18 by Red Baker »

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #62 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 16:11:03 »
Quote
Paul's pagan influences: Kicks Against the Pricks

Kicks Against the Pricks~ It is a proverbial expression, taken from beasts that are goaded, who kick against the goads or pricks, and hurt themselves the more thereby; and Christ used it, not Paul, suggesting hereby, that should Saul go on to persecute him and his people, to oppose his Gospel, and the strong evidence of it, in doctrine and miracles, and notwithstanding the present remonstrances made in such an extraordinary manner; he would find himself in the issue greatly hurt by it, and could not rationally expect to succeed against so powerful a person

Your hatred is not toward Paul, but toward Jesus Christ and his gospel, whom Paul so faithfully preached.  Let us be honest.  What should we expect from a man who uses the word of God to put on a false front of believing the scriptures.  You have made no attempt to answer any post that I have given to you.

Quote
'We are indeed His Offspring' and "in thee we live and move and have our being"

Paul was not trying to influence anyone toward Paganism, but was using their own people to turned them from their deep ignorance of God, as he notice an inscription of them to "To the UNKNOWN GOD"~ what Paul quoted from one of their own poets is very much true according to the teachings of the word of God.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being~The natural life which men live is from God; and they are supported in it by him; and from him they have all the comforts and blessings of life; and all motions, whether external or internal, of body or of mind, are of God, and none of them are without the concourse of his providence, and strength assistance from him; though the disorder and irregularity of these motions, whereby they become sinful, are of themselves, or of the devil; and their being, and the maintenance of it, and continuance in it, are all owing to the power and providence of God.  Is this Paganism?  I think not.  Your reasoning is sinful and wicked toward the word of God, and toward the champion of Christianity, which trumps Judaism any day of the week. 

Your other two are a pitiful and desperate attempt to find fault with Paul, but more so with the word of God, which you so much desire to discredit.  But you will be long gone soon, and the scriptures will still be standing firm, as much as ever; heaven and earth shall passed away, but God's faithful witness will never pass away.   
Jesus would have had NOTHING to do with pagan philosophy. Luke is recording PAUL'S account of his conversion experience.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #63 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:05:02 »
Jesus said:

and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, (Matt. 23:9 YLT)

But Paul says:

For even if you had ten thousand others to teach you about Christ, you have only one spiritual father. For I became your father in Christ Jesus when I preached the Good News to you. (1 Cor. 4:15, NLT)

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #64 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:07:04 »
In 1 Tim. 5:17, Paul wrote: "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching." Then Paul uses a verse about not muzzling an ox in an odd extension to imply churchgoers have a duty to pay the elders for their service. (1 Tim. 5:18.) Elsewhere, Paul says:

14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. (1 Cor. 9:14 NIV.)

But I thought Jesus said to His disciples to lay no cost on anyone they served by preaching and healing? "Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give." (Matt. 10:8, NAB.) Jesus in the prior verse was commanding the apostles to go out and preach the gospel, so the context makes quite clear that no charge was to be made on auditors to hear preaching of the gospel or healing ministries.

Hence, 1 Tim. 5:17-18 and 1 Cor. 9:14 contradicts Jesus in Matthew 10:8.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #65 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:08:30 »
Paul speaks of the "Lord of the dead and the living." (Romans 14:9.) But Jesus says "God is not the God of the dead but the living." (Luke 20:38.)

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #66 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:29:36 »
Faith Alone Or Obedience to Christ?

I am quoting here from "Church Myths -- Church of Christ or Paul" by an anonymous author:

Paul paints a picture of us being free from the law because of Jesus' sacrifice. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus came to fulfill the law and to empower us with His Holy Spirit so that we can keep the law. Yet Paul says, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (works) of the law." Rom 3:28 Elsewhere he states that God "...imputes righteousness without works." Rom 4:6 Paul is saying here that salvation is through faith alone and that we do not need works such as works repentance and works of righteousness. Jesus says, "And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?" Luk 6:46 (Church Myths - Church of Christ or Paul? June 23, 2005 http://www.justgivemethetruth.com reprinted at this link.)

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #67 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:30:59 »
Feed The Poor But Paul Puts Up Barriers

I am quoting here from "Church Myths -- Church of Christ or Paul" by an anonymous author:

What Jesus taught and what Paul taught was two different things. Here is a few quick example. Jesus instructs us to feed the poor. Paul says, "For even when we were with you we gave you orders, saying, If any man does no work, let him not have food. For it has come to our ears that there are some among you whose behavior is uncontrolled, who do no work at all, but are over-interested in the business of others."2Th 3:10 Jesus said to feed the poor. He did not say feed the poor unless they are over interested in other people's business. This is what Paul does. He pontificates endless rules of conduct, yet from the other side of his mouth he says we are free in Christ? (Church Myths - Church of Christ or Paul? June 23, 2005 http://www.justgivemethetruth.com reprinted at this link.)

Offline chosenone

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #68 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 17:57:19 »
Paul is writing Gods Words in the Bible, and for us as Christians the Bible is Gods word to us. If we dont believe that then we may as well all go home.
I am sad and troubled that you speak so badly of His Word, and of one of His chosen vessels who he used mightily to take His gospel to the gentiles, and to also write much of His NT.

Offline TruthofYHVH

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Re: Did Jesus call Paul a false apostle?
« Reply #69 on: Mon Mar 03, 2014 - 20:48:01 »
Can anyone explain why Paul's message was completely different to Jesus' in almost every way?

 

     
anything