Author Topic: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..  (Read 3405 times)

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Offline Aaron Lindahl

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Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 16:20:13 »
This post of course is intended for Christians who have a problem with homosexuality:
 
It goes against all common sense and reason to believe homosexuals are unnatural. Homosexuality, homosexual desire, and homosexual sex are 'not' sins in and of themselves.
To condemn or treat the way a person was born as a 'sin' is the gravest sin of all. Homosexuals are born in every place around the planet; from the smallest mountain village to the smallest desert village. It is not something 'learned' or 'taught' to them. It is innately the way they were born, as God created them, and it is 'natural' for them to be attracted to, and fall in love with, their own gender, upon reaching puberty, just as it is 'natural' for a heterosexual to feel and do the same with the opposite gender upon reaching puberty.


Levitical purity laws, (which are mistranslated in almost all English Bibles concerning homosexuality) do not apply to Christians, and so the people who bring up Leviticus to attack gay people with are gravely mistaken.


Jesus and homosexuality:


It is worthwhile to check the words attributed to Jesus by the author of the Gospel of Matthew. He created a comprehensive list of sins that would bring doom on a person: Matt 15:18-20: "...those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man..." It is even more worth noting that homosexual behavior is not one of the behaviors that is mentioned in this passage. The conclusion is that Jesus did not consider it a sin.


The options open to a Christian:


A Christian has two options with regard to the Christian Scriptures (New Testament):


1. To accept a favorite (and safely familiar) English translation as accurately containing the words of the original authors. This is a simple and straightforward approach because biblical passages related to lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgender persons and transsexuals (LGBT) in English Bibles are universally condemning. No further effort is needed.


2. To base the interpretation of these passages on the most ancient available Greek manuscripts of 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy. This is as close as we are able to get to the original autograph copies written by the author(s). This option is much more demanding, and made even more difficult because the precise meaning of some of the Greek words are unknown and can only be inferred. Even worse, a convincing case can be made that 1 Timothy was written by a second century forger, many decades after Paul was executed.


If Paul had wanted to condemn homosexual behavior in general, the word for it at the time was paiderasste. What he did, rather than simply use one of the many existing, quite precise Greek terms for aspects of homosexuality (or for homosexuality in general) – words that he would have been quite aware of – is create an entirely new word.


The word "arsenokoitai" in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy:


"Arsenokoitai" is a Greek word that appears to have been uniquely created by Paul when he was writing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. No record remains of any writer having using the term before Paul. It has been translated as "abusers of themselves with mankind" in the King James Version (KJV):


"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


The KJV was finished 1611 CE when there was no single word in the English language that referred to homosexuals or homosexuality. The translators were forced to use this awkward phrase. The term "homosexual" was only created in the late 19th century.


More recent versions of the Bible translate arsenokoitai here as:


• "homosexuals," (NASB);
• "homosexual perversion," (NEB);
• "homosexual offenders," (NIV).


In doing this, they appear to have little respect or attention to the actual meaning of the original Greek verse. By using the term "homosexual" the translators changed the scope of the verse. The original Greek refers to men only; the English translation refers to both males and females; i.e. to gays and lesbians. We suspect that the temptation to attack lesbians overcame the translators' desire to be accurate.


The author of 1 Timothy also used "arsenokoitai." The KJV translated it similarly:


"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine."


Christian theologians generally agree that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians circa 55 CE. However, they differ on the authorship and date of the three Pastoral Epistles -- 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus.


• Some scholars believe that Paul wrote the Pastoral epistles during the interval 62 to 64 CE just before his death.


• Many other scholars believe that they were written up to 85 years after Paul's execution, circa 100 to 150 CE by an unknown person who pretended to be Paul.


What does "arsenokoitai" really mean?


"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds."


Although the word in English Bibles is interpreted as referring to homosexuals, we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the word "paiderasste." That was the standard Greek term at the time for sexual activity between males. We can conclude that he probably meant something different than people who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.


Many sources have speculated about the meaning of "arsenokoitai:"


• "Homosexual offenders:" The NIV contains this phrase. Suppose for the moment that Paul had attacked "heterosexual offenders" or "heterosexual sexual offenders." We would not interpret this today as a general condemnation of heterosexuality. It would be seen as an attack only on those heterosexuals who commit sexual offences. Perhaps the appropriate interpretation of this verse is that it does not condemn all homosexuals. Rather it condemns only those homosexuals who engage in sexual offences (e.g. child sexual abuse, rape, unsafe sex, manipulative sex, coercive sex, etc).


• Male prostitutes in Pagan temples: One source states that the Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek made between the 3rd and 1st centuryBCE) translated the Hebrew "quadesh" in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 into a Greek word somewhat similar to "arsenokoitai." This passage referred to "male temple prostitutes" -- people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought 1 Corinthians was referring to temple prostitutes. Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers - a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman empire.


• Pimp: Another source refers to other writings, written later than 1 Corinthians, which contains the word "arsenokoitai:" This includes the Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John, and Theophilus of Antioch's Ad Autolycum. The source suggests that the term refers "to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but not necessarily homosexual sex)." Probably "pimp" or "man living off of the avails of prostitution" would be the closest English translations. It is worth noting that "Much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word arsenokoitai."


• Masturbators. At the time of Martin Luther, "arsenokoitai" was universally interpreted as masturbator. But by the 20th century, masturbation had become a more generally accepted behavior. So, new translations abandoned references to masturbators and switched the attack to homosexuals. The last religious writing in English that interpreted 1 Corinthians 6:9 as referring to masturbation is believed to be the [Roman] Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967.


• Abusive pedophiles: Many would consider "malakoi" -- the word preceding "arsenokoitai," in 1 Corinthians -- to refer to a catamite: a boy or young male who engaged in sexual activities with men. Such boys were often slaves, owned by rich men as sex partners. The second term might then refer to the men who engaged in sex with the catamites. That is, they were abusive pedophiles or hebephiles. The New American Bible contains a footnote which reads:


"The Greek word translated as 'boy prostitutes' [in 1 Cor. 6:9] designated catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world....The term translated 'practicing homosexuals' refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys."


In their footnote, the translators recognize that the term refers to abusive male pedophiles, but apparently cannot resist the temptation to attack all homosexuals -- both gays and lesbians, non-abusive and abusive.


Harper's Bible Commentary (1998) states that the passage refers to:


"... both the effeminate male prostitute and his partner who hires him to satisfy sexual needs. The two terms used here for homosexuality... specify a special form of pederasty that was generally disapproved of in Greco-Roman and Jewish Literature."


Many religious scholars agree that the center portion of 6:9 might be accurately translated as: "male child abusers and the boys that they sexually abuse." i.e. the two behaviors probably relate to male pedophiles who are also child rapists, and the male children that they victimize. The verse would then refer to the crime of child sexual abuse and has no relation to homosexuality in the normal sense of the term: i.e. to consensual sexual relations between adults of the same gender.


Male prostitutes: One scholar has provided an interesting analysis of 1 Corinthians. He noticed a pattern in verse 9 and 10. They are composed up of pairs or triads of related groups of people:


The lawless & disobedient: two near synonyms


The ungodly & sinners: also two near synonyms


The unholy & profane: two synonyms


The murderers of fathers & murderers of mothers & manslayers: three kinds of murderers


Whoremongers & "arsenokoitai" & menstealers


Liars & perjurers etc.: again, two near synonyms.


From the repeated pairs or triads made up of synonyms or near synonyms, one might expect that whoremongers, "malakoi arsenokoitai," and menstealers are interconnected with a common theme -- just like the other pairs and triads in the list.


In the original Greek, the first of the three words is "pornov." An online Greek lexicon notes that this is Strong's Number 4205, and was derived from the Greek word "pernemi" which means to sell. Its meanings are:


A man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire.


A male prostitute.


A man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator.


The second term is "arsenokoitai" which has not been given a Strong Number because it is a made-up word that is almost never found in the Greek language other than in 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians.


The last of the three words is "andrapodistes," the stem of the word andrapodistai. It is Strong's Number 405 which means:


A slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer -- one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery or who steals the slaves of others and sells them.


If we assume that the three words refer to a common theme, as the other five groups are, then we have to look for some sense which the words have in common. Cannon suggests:


"pornoi" refers to an enslaved male prostitute.


"arsenokoitai" refers to a man who forces sex on an enslaved male prostitute


"andrapodistes" refers to a person who kidnaps and enslaves people.


The common theme is slavery. Cannon suggests a translation: "It is as if Paul were saying, 'male prostitutes, men who sleep with them, and slave dealers who procure them'." That is, all three words deal with slavery. They are unrelated to homosexual behavior in the modern sense of the term i.e. consensual sex between persons of the same sex.


• A boy sex slave


Again, the common theme is slavery.


Translating "arsenokoitai" as a boy who is kept as a sex slave has some support in at least two Bible translations:


As noted above, a footnote in the New American Bible (NAB), interprets "arsenokoitai" as a " boy prostitute."


The Jerusalem Bible translates the triad in 1 Timothy as: "those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men." In 1 Corinthians 6:9 the same word "arsenokoitai" is translated as "catamite."
 
An acurate translation of 1 Timothy 1:10 would be: "...male prostitutes, boys who have sex with men, and slave dealers who enslave them both."


As you may have observed by now, attempts to distort the Bible into a message of hate are badly misguided. The passages in Leviticus and Paul's three letters specifically apply to people engaging in ritual activity with pagan priests or sacred prostitutes. The references to 'sodomites' in Deuteronomy, etc., are a clear error in translation that refer to the same thing. The Sodom and Gomorrah references clearly refer to inhospitality and not to homosexuality at all.


Here's the most fundamental weakness in such thinking: the Bible does not condemn lesbians. There is a proscription against women wearing men's clothing, and a letter from Paul 'mentions' "women [who] did change the natural use into that which is against nature" – whatever that means – but nothing else. Any translations that apply to 'homosexuals' (i.e., including females as well as males) are mis-translations, possibly intentional, certainly political.


So it is entirely within Christ's teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.
 
For example, here is one verse that many Christians use to persecute gay people with, (even though Levitical purity laws do not apply to Christians) but don't realize that their Bible has it translated falsely.


Leviticus 18:22 - The translations of this verse found in most English Bibles are not supported by the Hebrew text:


"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."(KJV)


The honest and correct translation:


"And with a male, thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is an abomination."


Below, is a word by word translation of this verse:

ואת זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה תועבה הִוא


V'et-zachar lo tishkav mishk'vei ishah to'evah hu.


(Transliterated using modern Israeli Sephardic pronunciation.)


V'et - This is two words. First, V', which means and. This word cannot exist by itself, and therefore is attached to the word that comes after it, that is, et. This word means with. So the first two words of this verse are And with.


zachar - This word means male. Hebrew has no indefinite article (a, an), so when the definite article (the) is not used, as in this case, an indefinite article is understood. Therefore, this word translates as a male. The verse so far reads And with a male.


lo - This word is the Hebrew equivalent of our words noand not. It is used in this case to negate the verb that follows it. Because English has a more complicated verb structure than Hebrew, it will take more than one English word to translate the next Hebrew word, and the not will need to go in the middle of those words, so we won't add this word to our translation yet.


tishkav - This is a verb. Unlike English verbs, everything we need to know about tense and person is contained in this one word. No additional pronouns or tense markers are needed.


The root of the verb is the last three letters: sh-k-v, and it meanslie down. The first letter of the word, t, is not part of the root, but indicates person and tense and even gender. To translate tishkav into English will require four words, as well as a parenthetical note to indicate the gender of the pronoun.


The word translates as Thou (male) shalt lie down. The previous Hebrew word, lo, negated the verb, so we have And with a male thou (male) shalt not lie down. mishk'vei - This is a noun. The base form of the noun is mishkav, and it can be seen that the last three letters of the base, sh-k-v, are also the three letters of the verb root above, meaning lie down. This noun means bed. Hebrew nouns have more than one form. In addition to having singular and plural forms, many nouns also have absolute and construct forms. An absolute noun stands alone, with its own meaning. A construct noun is grammatically tied to the noun that follows it. In English it often translates by placing the English word "of" between the two nouns. A good example is the Hebrew Beit Lechem (Bethlehem), which in English translates as House of Bread. This is because the first word, Beit, is in the construct state.Mishk'vei is in the plural construct state, meaning beds of. It would be a good idea here to explain a bit about Hebrew prepositions:


Hebrew has prepositions that correspond to ours, but doesn't always use them the same way. For example, when people leave us, in English we say that we miss them. But in Hebrew, the verb to miss is used with a preposition, and we say that we miss to them. The same works in reverse, that is, sometimes English requires a preposition when Hebrew doesn't. If a preposition can be derived from context, Hebrew will sometimes leave it out. In English, we need it. Therefore, we need to insert the English word in before the words beds of, in order for the sentence to make sense in English.


The verse so far reads And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of.


ishah - This is the Hebrew word for woman. Since there is no definite article (the), it is understood to mean a woman.And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman.Since this is awkward, we will rephrase it to "in a woman's bed."And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed.


(Note: The word mishk'vei only appears three times in scripture: Gen. 49:7; Lev. 18:22; Lev. 20:13. In Genesis, it is paired with the word avicha, which means "thy father," and the phrase is correctly translated in most versions as "to thy father's bed." As in Lev. 18:22, the preposition is derived from context.)

Punctuation as we know it was not part of the original text. Even modern Hebrew Bibles contain only one punctuation mark, which looks like a colon ':', and serves only to point out the end of a verse (but not necessarily the end of a sentence). English is very difficult to read without punctuation marks, so we insert them as we translate. After the word woman, we may insert either a semicolon, or a period, to indicate that the following words are not part of the first phrase, but simply offer further information about it. And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed;


to'evah - This is a noun. It translates as abomination. Without a definite article, it translates as an abomination. Hebrew word order often varies from ours, and this is one case where this is true. In English, this will be the last word in the sentence, so we will hold off on adding it to the translation until we have finished with the next word.


hu - This little word serves so many purposes, not only for readers of the Hebrew text, but also for those today who wonder about the accuracy of the Hebrew text. You see, this word is a grammatical error made by Moses. Moses was well schooled in the arts and sciences of ancient Egypt, but not in the tongue of his own people. Although he evidently spoke Hebrew well enough to be understood, like so many today, he did not always use proper grammar. His meaning remained the same, but the grammar was wrong.


I want to repeat that: His meaning remained the same, only the grammar was wrong.The word הוא hu means both he and it. It means it when applied to masculine nouns. But to'evah is a feminine noun, so Moses should have used the word היא hi, which means she and it. It means it when applied to feminine nouns. (All Hebrew nouns are either masculine or feminine; there is no neuter gender. This gender concept is grammatical in nature only, and has nothing to do with men or women, per se. For example, in Hebrew a table is masculine, whereas in the Romance languages, it is feminine. It has nothing to do with the nature of the table; it's simply grammatical.)


The next point of grammar involves the present tense forms of the verb to be. In English these forms are am, art, is and are. Hebrew has such forms, but almost never uses them, except in reference to God, or when absolutely necessary for context.


The reason for this may be that the forms are too close to God's name in Hebrew. While this may seem awkward to us, there are many other languages that don't use the present tense of the verb to be. For example, Russian has become so used to ignoring the forms, that some of them are completely obsolete. The Russian equivalent of am can't even be found in a dictionary or grammar book any more. They get along fine without it, and so does Hebrew. But English can't, so we have to insert the appropriate forms when translating: And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is


Finally, we put in the words an abomination: "And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is an abomination."


This is the correct translation of Leviticus 18:22. It can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply forbids two males to lie down in a woman's bed together, for whatever reason.
 
The problem is that just because people see a nicely bound 'Bible' in the millions at many churches, it doesn't mean it's a good translation. A bible only sells, if people want to purchase it. There are 'many' different types of English Bibles that say many different things. They are far from infallible.


'Masturbators'. At the time of Martin Luther, "arsenokoitai" was universally interpreted as masturbator. But by the 20th century, masturbation had become a more generally accepted behavior. So, new translations abandoned references to masturbators and switched the attack to homosexuals. The last religious writing in English that interpreted 1 Corinthians 6:9 as referring to masturbation is believed to be the [Roman] Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967.


Leviticus 18:22


KJV: (King James Version, 1611): Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.


LB: (Living Bible, 1971): Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin. (Notice the clear, unjustified extension of the verse to include lesbians; lesbian behavior is entirely absent from the whole of Hebrew scriptures.)


NIV: (New International Version, 1973): Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.


MSG (The Message, 1993): Don't have sex with a man as one does with a woman. That is abhorrent.


NLT: (New Living Translation, 1996): Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. (Again, a clear, unjustified extension of the verse to include lesbians.)


NET (New English Translation, 2005): You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act.


It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the term 'abomination' was an intentionally bad translation, given how far it differs from the meaning of the original Hebrew. It is used with a set of different situations in the King James Bible.


The Living Bible and its revision, the New Living Translation, by using the word 'homosexuality' (for which there was no linguistic or cultural equivalent in Hebrew times) add two further errors. First, they add lesbians to the condemned group with utterly no justification for doing so. Second, since 'homosexuality' includes not just homosexual acts but also the mere fact of being oriented toward the same sex, the translations condemn both. These two translations say that it is a sin to be the way God created gays.


However, when translated exactly word for word into English, it says: 'And with a male you shall not lie [in the] beds of a woman,'which is to say that if two men are going to have sex, they cannot do it in a bed belonging to a woman, i.e., which is reserved only for heterosexual intercourse.


Both this verse and the other from Leviticus (see below) appear in a holiness code that applied to Israel rather than to gentile Christians in an age of grace. Both occur in the clear context of opposition to the practices of the local fertility god Moloch; verse 21 sets the stage for this one by forbidding people from allowing their children to be burned in sacrifice to Moloch, verse 23 prohibits intercourse with animals (the idol of Moloch was in the form of a bull with a man's head and shoulders, so this verse too may refer to idol worship). At the time, in order to get a conviction, Jewish law required four (male) witnesses, so whatever the action condemned in Leviticus was, it was likely a public event (there are no instances recorded in the Talmud of anyone being brought before the Sanhedrin and charged with homosexual activity). Worship of other gods provided a context where sex is very public, and there are 59 other places in the Bible where the worship of other gods is called an abomination (in the KJV). How could these two verses not apply to temple prostitution?


The probability that ritual prostitution is the context of these two verses is underlined by a later mistranslation of the Hebrew word qadesh, which appears in Deuteronomy (23:17), 1 Kings (14:24, 15:12 & 22:46), and 2 Kings (23:7). Literally the word means 'holy one'; it is clearly used in these verses to refer to a man that engages in ritual (pagan) temple prostitution in order to encourage the god(s) to make the earth and its creatures more fertile. By analogy many scholars interpret the verses in Leviticus as specifically referring only to sexual activities in a pagan temple ritual.

In the King James Version the word qadesh was translated for the first time as 'sodomite,' a word that at the time generically referred to any person who engaged in 'unnatural' sexual acts of any type. The New King James and 21st Century King James translations inaccurately retain the word 'sodomite' even though today it refers specifically only to males who engage in anal sex; most other Bibles more accurately translate it as cult, shrine, or temple prostitute.


Translators face a choice between alternative prohibitions of:


-homosexual behavior by either sex
-sexual behavior between two men
-sexual behavior between a man and a married man (or perhaps three people, including at least one man and one woman)
-just anal sex between two men
-just pagan temple ritual sex (between two men?)
sexual activity between two men in a woman's bed


Be aware that post-King James translations fixate on the first two. This has had a self-perpetuating effect; a Bible that strays significantly from this message won't sell, which means it won't get published. Deviating from traditional interpretations would certainly generate a lot of media hype, which would temporarily boost sales because of the publicity generated, but it would also block the use of the translation by many if not most purchasers of large numbers of Bibles.


The fact that for the first 300 years of Christianity, there is evidence of men marrying each other, and that there was no rejection or persecution of homosexuality shows something went very wrong when the bishops at the time finally gained the ear of an emperor, whose word was law. After all, it had been recognized as 'normal' human behavior for thousands of years at the time Christianity burst onto the scene, and they wouldn't have made many converts if they were going to attack or kill (homosexual) people who the majority at the time found perfectly natural.

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Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 16:20:13 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #1 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 18:32:57 »
Aaron said---

<<<To condemn or treat the way a person was born as a 'sin' is the gravest sin of all<<<

I am an alcoholic---and I was BORN that way. Many scientists believe that alcoholism is an "inherited trait". But the Bible
says drunkards will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. Drunkeness is therefore a sin. So, do I throw up my hands and say "God,
I was born this way! I can't help myself!"?  No---because I was "born this way" gives me no right to get drunk every day.

So, what do I do? I admit that I am an alcoholic, whether "born this way" or not. The Bible says drunkeness is a sin, so I MUST admit
I am a sinner, and what I am doing is sin. I quit drinking because it destroys me, and God says it is wrong in His very Word. Only a percentage
of people are alcoholics
---most can drink without it being a problem. Should I then complain to God that it is unfair because I was "born this way"
when most were not?  NO---it is still a sin, even if I was born this way.  And I need to repent, and not drink any more.  And I don't---I have not
touched alcohol for 8 years now, and don't ever intend to again.

Check out where drunkeness is listed in the Scritpures---the same place homosexuality is.  Homosexuality is NOT a GREATER SIN than drunkeness---
they are equally listed as keeping one from entering the Kingdom of God:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders,  nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."  (1 Cor. 6:9,-11)

Please note that the verses above say "and that is what some of you WERE".   I will always have a weakness for alcohol, and I need to keep away from it--even if I was "born" with that tendency.  A homosexual has no excuse to say "I was born this way" and continue on in a rebellious and sinful lifestyle. They have no more right to continue in that lifestyle than I do to continue getting wasted every night because I was born with an alcoholic "gene".  Don't be deceived---repent--and turn to Jesus for help. There is great hope in Jesus!  You can be washed, and sanctified,and justified in His name. Don't throw up your hands and say "It's unfair! I was born this way!"---instead admit you are a sinner and repent, and come to the Lord Jesus----I sure am glad I did!

When you are before the Judgment Seat will you acknowldge sin as sin, or jump through all of the "translation hoops" you are attemting to jump through below to justify yourself?  Imagine if I tried to manipulate the word "drunkards" to only mean "sloppy, mean, drunks", not "nice ones". That would be ridiculous. But that is what you are attempting to do below with your re-interpretation of the word "homosexual" in Paul's text.  "Do not be deceived" Paul states in those verses----pay heed, and turn to Christ.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 19:03:14 by fish153 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #2 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 19:29:35 »
 Aaron Lindahl believe as you wish.

For myself I believe a practicing homosexual is sinning for one specific reason....

Fornication is replete throughout the new testament as being a sin. And if it is not the actual word fornication it is widely accepted as sexual immorality.

I am not going to cite chapters and verse but you appear to have studied well to endeavor to make your point and therefore you cannot counter this as fact.

If you are a practicing homosexual you are guilty of fornication or at the very least sexual immorality.

And this is not acceptable to God.

IF you are a homosexual then you ABSTAIN the very same way that I, as a single woman must.

It is that simple...... YOU JUST SAY NO.....................................

And , yes, that means for all of your life, just as it has had to be all of my life or any other single heterosexual that God has kept single.

As I read your logic....
because I know it is not acceptable for me to partake in sex outside of marriage , by reading your logic, should I  turn gay it then would be alright... if i found myself loving that person, or even if i didn't.... it would be alright because God does not find homosexuality a sin?

Before you get all huffy and say that is why gays should marry remember in

 OLD TESTAMENT Genesis 2:24King James Version (KJV) (Sorry if I offend with KJV, I have it handy)

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

And


 NEW TESTAMENT Mark 10:7-9King James Version (KJV)

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

NOWHERE did God ever say man and man or wife and wife.... it has ALWAYS been original intent of man and wife.

You go to great lengths to offset the interpretations of the Old Testament in Leviticus.

YOU cannot pick and choose interpretations to suit yourself.

Any member here who has good knowledge of more then one language will tell you that no every language can be translated word for word. And some phrases cannot be translated into English at all. My mother speaks Italian and there are words that can only be vaguely described. My friend speaks Spanish and the same goes for that.
But none the less.... there are words to describe what they are meaning in English.

My Holy Word tells me it is an abomination, and unless you can concretely give a specific word by word translation of meaning from original Hebrew DO NOT try to muddy the waters by picking words apart to make a meaning that suits your needs.


Offline Johnb

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #3 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 20:50:09 »
How lucky we are to have all these Greek .scholars who understand a 2000 year old dead language and its exact meaning better than those who have devoted their life to the study of the Greek and partied with many others to as best they could accurately translate the bible. ::smile:: ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Aaron Lindahl

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #4 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 22:20:30 »
Yes... how very 'lucky' such as you are..to sit and spin in your web of ignorance and prejudice, while reassuring yourselves that you are being 'righteous' ... 

Can anyone honestly deny the following facts in the history of the church, its brutal treatment of homosexuals, and what it eventually did to Classical Civilization?

Homosexuality flourished and was accepted by the general public for over 1,300 years within the Greek culture, and for almost 900 years of Roman culture, without causing any 'downfall' of civilization as some people today claim will happen if homosexuals are able to get married. Yet, within a little over 100 years after Christians at the time gained political dominance in Rome ('Christians' who were utterly unlike the loving and peaceful Christians of the first 300 years of Christianity), and had renamed Byzantium as Constantinople, the entire Classical civilization and culture (the birthplace of our own Western Civilization) collapsed... after they had forbade freedom of religion under pain of death, freedom of thought, shut down the Olympics, the theaters, the gymnasiums, and schools of learning. These were the same sort of self-styled 'Christians' who you see today demonizing gay people and attempting to stop them from marrying each other, or being free from their persecution. This is why the Founding Fathers were so wise to separate Church & State.

THE DEATH OF SECULAR SOCIETY:

They basically killed civic culture as it had been. The cities began to decline and fall into ruin. Public libraries were closed or abandoned since the majority of the citizens within 2 generations had lost the ability to read. Knowledge of sculpture, realistically depicted artwork, civil-engineering, and all that a robust and educated civic life engenders, withered and died. After all, you were told the world was going to end at any moment, and you didn't need to know anymore than what the religious authorities told or forced you to believe, let alone worry about 'secular' knowledge or interests.

The ancient world had been a relatively tolerant place in the world of religion. There were occasional bursts of persecution of this or that sect but as a rule many religions existed side by side. The fact that the Christians were persecuted at times, does not excuse what they did upon coming to power.

During the years 342 CE to 395 CE all this changed when Christianity established itself as the only religion in the Roman Empire and launched an all out campaign of religious terror against all other sects.

It was not until the Roman world was forcibly converted, and succumbed to an unforgiving and dictatorship-like form of Christianity (completely unlike the earlier peaceful and loving form of Christianity that had existed for 300 years), that we began to embark upon the Dark Ages.

PERSECUTION OF HOMOSEXUALS BEGINS:

On December 16, 342 AD, the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, under advice from their bishops, issued the following edict.. a law specifically outlawing marriages between men, and reads as follows:

"When a man marries in the manner of a woman, a woman about to renounce men, what does he wish, when sex has lost its significance; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed into another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be guilty, shall be subjected to exquisite punishment." (Theodosian Code 9.7.3)

Christian emperors Theodosius and Arcadius on Aug 6, 390, under the advice of their bishops, issued the following edict.. an edict that would begin an evil persecution towards gay people that would last well over 1,600 years:

"All persons who have the shameful custom of condemning a man's body, acting the part of a woman's to the sufferance of alien sex (for they appear not to be different from women), shall expiate a crime of this kind by being burned to death in the public sight of the people." -Codex Theodosius IX. Vii. 6

What follows are quotes from the legal code of the Roman Empire as set forth by the Emperor Theodosius at the request of Christian leaders to crush competing religions. The legal persecution of non-Christian religions by Rome marked the beginning of a wave of religious terror that would remain in place until the eighteenth century.

THE BURNING OF NON-CHRISTIAN BOOKS:

"All writings whatever which Porphyry or anyone else has written against the Christian religion, in the possession of whomsoever they shall be found, shall be committed to the fire." -- Emperor Theodosius I.

LAW BANNING ALL RELIGIONS OTHER THAN CHRISTIANITY:

"We command that all those proved to be devoting themselves to sacrificing or worshiping images be subject to the penalty of death." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.6

"It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. ... The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.1.2.

EDICTS AGAINST NON-CHRISTIAN WORSHIP:

"No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. ... The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword." -- Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4"The ability and right of making wills shall be taken from those who turn from Christians to pagans, and the testament of such an one, if he made any, shall be abrogated after his death."-- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.7.1.

THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLES:

"It is decreed that in all places and all cities the [pagan] temples should be closed at once, and after a general warning, the opportunity of sinning be taken from the wicked. We decree also that we shall cease from making sacrifices. And if anyone has committed such a crime, let him be stricken with the avenging sword. And we decree that the property of the one executed shall be claimed by the city, and that rulers of the provinces be punished in the same way, if they neglect to punish such crimes."-- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.4.

Thankfully society at large is now freeing itself from these type of self-professed 'Christians', who are full of hatred and condemnation towards anyone who doesn't fit into their narrow view of reality, and who caused the Dark Ages to begin in the first place. Their mind-set is of the same type as those described above. Thankfully as well, more and more 'true' Christians have seen the errors of their ways on this issue and now openly and lovingly welcome gay souls and their loved ones, for the unique way that God created them.

A TIMELINE OF BRUTALITY, TORTURE, AND MURDER DONE IN THE NAME OF CHRIST:

305- 306 – Council of Elvira (now Granada, Spain). This council was representative of the Western European Church and among other things, it barred homosexuals the right to Communion.

314 – Council of Ancyra (now Ankara, Turkey). This council was representative of the Eastern European Church and it excluded the Sacraments for 15 years to unmarried men under the age of 20 who were caught in homosexual acts, and excluded the man for life if he was married and over the age of 50.

342 – Under advice from their bishops, the first law against same-sex marriage was promulgated by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans.

390 – Under advice from their bishops, the Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.

498 – In spite of the laws against homosexuality, the Christian emperors continued to collect taxes on male prostitutes until the reign of Anastasius I, who finally abolishes the tax.

529 – The Christian emperor Justinian I (527–565) made homosexuals a scapegoat for problems such as "famines,earthquakes, and pestilences."

589 – The Visigothic kingdom in Spain, is converted from Arianism to Catholicism. This conversion leads to a revision of the law to conform to those of Catholic countries. These revisions include provisions for the persecution of gays and Jews.

693 – In Iberia, Visigothic ruler Egica of Hispania and Septimania, demanded that a Church council confront the occurrence of homosexuality in the Kingdom. The Sixteenth Council of Toledo issued a statement in response, which was adopted by Egica, stating that homosexual acts be punished by castration, exclusion from Communion, hair shearing, one hundred stripes of the lash, and banishment into exile.

1120 – Baldwin II of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, convenes the Council of Nablus to address the vices within the Kingdom. The Council calls for the burning of individuals who perpetually commit homosexual acts.

1179 – The Third Lateran Council of Rome issues a decree for the excommunication of homosexuals.

1232 – Pope Gregory IX starts the Inquisition in the Italian City-States. Some cities called for banishment and/or amputation as punishments for 1st- and 2nd-offending homosexuals and burning for the 3rd or habitual offenders.

1260 – In France, first-offending homosexuals lost their testicles, second offenders lost their member, and third offenders were burned. Women caught in same-sex acts could be mutilated and executed as well.

1265 – Thomas Aquinas argues that homosexuality is second only to murder in the ranking of sins.

1283 – The French Civil Code dictated that convicted homosexuals should not only be burned but also that their property would be forfeited.

1370s – Jan van Aersdone and Willem Case were two men executed in Antwerp in the 1370s. The charge against them was same gender intercourse. Aersdone and Case stand out because records of their names have survived.

1432 – In Florence the first organization specifically intended to prosecute homosexuality is established, the "Night Officials", which over the next 70 years arrest about 10,000 men and youths.

1451 – Pope Nicholas V enables the papal Inquisition to persecute men who practice homosexuality.

1475 – In Peru, a chronicle written under the Capac Yupanqui government describes the persecution of homosexuals with public burnings and destruction of homes (a practice usually reserved for conquered tribes).

1483 – The Spanish Inquisition begins. Homosexuals were stoned, castrated, and burned. Between 1540 and 1700, more than 1,600 people were prosecuted for homosexuality.

1532 – Holy Roman Empire makes homosexuality punishable by death.

1533 – King Henry VIII passes the Buggery Act 1533 making anal intercourse punishable by death throughout England.

1620 – Brandenburg-Prussia criminalizes homosexuality, making it punishable by death.

1721 – Catherina Margaretha Linck is executed for lesbianism in Germany.

1836 – The last known execution for homosexuality in Great Britain. James Pratt and John Smith are hanged at Newgate prison, London after being caught together in private lodgings.

1895 – The trial of Oscar Wilde results in his being prosecuted under the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 for "gross indecency" for having sex with other males, and is sentenced to two years hard labor in prison, ruining his health.

1903 – In New York on 21 February 1903, New York police conducted the first United States recorded raid on a gay bathhouse, the Ariston Hotel Baths. 26 men were arrested and 12 brought to trial on sodomy charges; 7 men received sentences ranging from 4 to 20 years in prison.

1945 – Upon the liberation of Nazi concentration camps by Allied forces, those who were interned for homosexuality, and who miraculously survived.. are not freed, but required to serve out the full term of their sentences under Paragraph 175.

1954 – June 7th –Mathematical and computer genius Alan Turing commits suicide by cyanide poisoning, 18 months after being given a choice between two years in prison or libido-reducing hormone treatment for a year as a punishment for homosexuality.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 12:55:37 by Aaron Lindahl »

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #4 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 22:20:30 »



Jd34

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #5 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 22:36:16 »
We are all born of the flesh and there is no escaping sin. So the concept of homosexuality being a sin shouldn't be too hard to accept. Imo

Offline Charlie24

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #6 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 22:50:15 »
I don't believe anyone on this site approves the persecuting of homosexuals.

God hates sin but loves the homosexual, and true born-again Christians do to.

Homosexualality is wrong!

1Cor. 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Effeminate refers to men conforming to the nature of a woman with the purpose of committing homosexual acts with other men.

Abusers of themselves with mankind is man with man, and woman with woman.

1Cor. 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

You can push your agenda, but we know better.




Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #7 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 23:33:30 »
Quote
"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds."
Not quite.

Koitai indicates the marriage bed, and is routinely used to indicate intercourse.  Note that the Latin word derived from the Greek is Coitus.

"Male-bedders" is the most literal translation, but the term I heard growing up was "chickenhawk."

Jarrod

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #8 on: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 23:47:44 »
I have compassion on those who have same sex attraction, but I would be hateful to them if I told them that they were free to take part in homosexual sex. Just as a single hetrosexual person should remain celibate, then so should a gay person if they are a believer. I have never actually met a Christian who is hateful to gays, on the contrary, but we cannot say that sin isnt sin. Its not politically correct to say this, but so what? We are not following the worlds ways but Gods.
 
Charlie has already posted this verse, which is very clear.
  1Cor. 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 04, 2014 - 23:52:37 by chosenone »

Offline kensington

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #9 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 02:17:42 »
It's really simple if you seek to understand God and not to excuse sin.

God called it "abomination" in numerous places in the word of God.  And no where in the word did He take that back, or correct it (like Paul did with eating foods in the New Testament)... but even right to the Revelation of Jesus Christ, chapter 21 verse 27...

"and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

I know that seems so simple to someone who might want to post long arduous postings to prove it's OK to be gay.  But, the truth is, God does make things way more simple than we might think. 

It's not complicated... In the front of the book He said "No-No homosexuo" and in the back of the book, He said "still No-No homosexuo". 

He called it an abomination in the beginning of the word, and said anyone who practices abominations cannot go to Heaven at the end of the word. 


« Last Edit: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 02:20:53 by kensington »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #10 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 03:13:53 »
oh my.  I've read this stuff before.  And the rebuttal to it...

Aaron - what gay activist group are you with?   


the basics are - sex outside of marriage is a sin.   and marriage is only between a man and a woman.   You get caught up in that  biblebabble  and go in circles.   I'm sorry for that.  Gay groups have been using that for years and years.  The only ones who will buy into it are those who don't know Christ and don't know what the Bible really says.

no one is born gay, other than that we are all born with sin... 

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #11 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 04:28:39 »
It's really simple if you seek to understand God and not to excuse sin. God called it "abomination" in numerous places in the word of God. 

I would not give that which is holy unto dogs.  Matthew 7:6  God called sodomites dogs in the scriptures, and dogs they are. The analogy fits perfectly~what do dogs do to each other?   All this guy is doing is laboring to provoke godly people to speak many things, and as Solomon warned us:

Proverbs 10:19

  .
  "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin:  but he that refraineth his lips is wise."

He who speaks too much, will end up sinning.  Let this man go away to "his friends", and in the Judgement of the great day, present his case to the Almighty and see if he will hear him. 

Our Lord Jesus did not give in to such people:

Luke 11:53

  .
  "And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things."

Our blessed Jesus never sinned with his words, even though the wicked labored vehemently to provoke him to sin with his words.  We just spent many post dealing with this very subject, let him go there and read our thoughts~ but he really does not care what the word of God said, only to cause righteous, God fearing people to hear his filth.   
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 04:33:11 by Red Baker »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #12 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 05:30:11 »
Everyone is born in sin.  There is no getting around that. We all have a genetic (or whatever the spiritual equivalent is) predisposition to sin. So "being born that way" is no excuse. Sin is still sin.

As far as male homosexual behavior - it is clearly condemned in the bible in both testaments. Female homosexuality only has Romans 1.26 against it and it is sufficiently vague that without verse 27 it could be taken a different way.

What we call "orientation" is not addressed in the bible at all; so whether or not a same-gender attraction is sinful in and of itself depends on how you define "sin."

Offline DaveW

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #13 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 05:34:03 »
no one is born gay,

I do not agree with that.  There is some evidence that a same-gender attraction can be demonic in origin; and some people are born demonized. So being "born that way" is certainly not out of the question.

By the same token - a baby can also be born with a demon of hatred or murder.  Those would still be considered sinful.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #14 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 06:44:53 »
no one is born gay,

I do not agree with that.  There is some evidence that a same-gender attraction can be demonic in origin; and some people are born demonized. So being "born that way" is certainly not out of the question.

By the same token - a baby can also be born with a demon of hatred or murder.  Those would still be considered sinful.
 


Also many men with same sex attraction were sexually abused as children by an adult of the same sex, and also God can heal those people and restore what was damaged.   

Offline DaveW

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #15 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 06:48:01 »
Also many men with same sex attraction were sexually abused as children by an adult of the same sex, ...

The same for girls who were abused, regardless of gender of the perp.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #16 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 06:50:07 »
oh my.  I've read this stuff before.  And the rebuttal to it...

Aaron - what gay activist group are you with?   


the basics are - sex outside of marriage is a sin.   and marriage is only between a man and a woman.   You get caught up in that  biblebabble  and go in circles.   I'm sorry for that.  Gay groups have been using that for years and years.  The only ones who will buy into it are those who don't know Christ and don't know what the Bible really says.

no one is born gay, other than that we are all born with sin...


 As you have said here skeeter, Gods will is for one man and one woman to have sex in marriage. I dont see how anyone can see anything else when taking the whole Bibles instructions and teachings on sex.

I suppose it comes down to whether you put God first or your sexual desires first.   ::shrug:: Everything He says is for our good.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #17 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 06:52:53 »
Also many men with same sex attraction were sexually abused as children by an adult of the same sex, ...

The same for girls who were abused, regardless of gender of the perp.


Hmm, i know lots of women who were sexually abused and none of them are gay. I think it damages them in different ways, and remember that most abused women are abused by men not women. 

Offline DaveW

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #18 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 06:56:56 »
... most abused women are abused by men not women.

Right.  So male sexuality in general and male anatomy specifically becomes looked at as "the enemy." 

My wife has struggled with that.

Offline Aaron Lindahl

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #19 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 07:55:51 »
It’s obvious that almost all people commenting on here did not take the time to read the original post before attacking.  I’m not part of some ‘gay’ group.  I’m merely sharing the original Greek and Hebrew words pertaining to this subject, as many Christian congregations are now doing.  This subject has been falsely translated in every English Bible since the King James version, and if you had read the entire post, you would see that even in many of today’s bibles, the translators admit this in their footnotes. The Bible was not originally written in English, so of course it is advisable to see what the Apostles actually wrote in their own language, that is, if you care enough to step out of your comfort zone, and want to follow Jesus’ Truth, rather than a lie.

‘Homosexual offenders:" The NIV Bible contains this falsely translated phrase of the Greek word ‘arsenokoitai’. Suppose for the moment that Paul had attacked "heterosexual offenders" or "heterosexual sexual offenders." We would not interpret this today as a general condemnation of heterosexuality. It would be seen as an attack only on those heterosexuals who commit sexual offences.

The KJV was finished 1611 CE when there was no single word in the English language that referred to homosexuals or homosexuality. The translators were forced to use this awkward phrase. The term "homosexual" was only created in the late 19th century, so any Bible that uses that word is using a false translation.

At the time of Martin Luther, "arsenokoitai" was universally interpreted as ‘masturbator’. But by the 20th century, masturbation had become a more generally accepted behavior. So, new translations abandoned references to masturbators and switched the attack to homosexuals. The last religious writing in English that interpreted 1 Corinthians 6:9 as referring to masturbation is believed to be the [Roman] Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967.


More recent versions of the Bible falsely translate arsenokoitai here as:


• "homosexuals," (NASB);
• "homosexual perversion," (NEB);
• "homosexual offenders," (NIV).


In doing this, they appear to have little respect or attention to the actual meaning of the original Greek verse. By using the term "homosexual" the translators changed the entire scope and meaning of the verse. The original Greek refers to men only, and only very specific forms of homosexuality, not homosexual behavior in general; the English translation refers to both males and females; i.e. to gays and lesbians. We suspect that the temptation to attack lesbians overcame the translators' desire to be accurate.

The Living Bible and its revision, the New Living Translation, by using the word 'homosexuality' (for which there was no linguistic or cultural equivalent in Hebrew times) add two further errors. First, they add lesbians to the condemned group with utterly no justification for doing so. Second, since 'homosexuality' includes not just homosexual acts but also the mere fact of being oriented toward the same sex, the translations condemn both. These two translations say that it is a sin to be the way God created gays.



Offline MeMyself

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #20 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 07:58:53 »
It’s obvious that almost all people commenting on here did not take the time to read the original post before attacking.

You are not a victim here. You are not being attacked.  People are disagreeing with you. That IS allowed. 


Offline Aaron Lindahl

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #21 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 08:09:02 »
I somehow missed the warm and Christian love being directed at me then in the comments. My apologies for mistaking them for attacks.

However, most of the comments show that they did not read the post before 'disagreeing' with what was posted, since the post goes into great detail on exactly how they are wrong.

To 'desire' something to be a sin when it is not, does not follow Jesus' teachings of love.

Offline Alan

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #22 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 08:25:35 »
It has been explained to you how your exegete has failed to provide proper evidence for your claim.


Seems many today will attempt to re-translate scripture to suit their personal agendas.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #23 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 08:26:26 »
I somehow missed the warm and Christian love being directed at me then in the comments.

Christians aren't Teddy Bears and neither is God.  People who don't like being disagreed with or having opposing verses pointed out always *always* start making accusations that the ones disagreeing with them are attacking them, don't show Christian love... ::frown::

Quote
My apologies for mistaking them for attacks.

However, most of the comments show that they did not read the post before 'disagreeing' with what was posted, since the post goes into great detail on exactly how they are wrong.

And, in your mind, if they had read your post, with your opinions and comments on the scriptures being wrong...they would see the light and agree to celebrate homosexuality?

Quote
To 'desire' something to be a sin when it is not, does not follow Jesus' teachings of love.

No one desires things to be sin...it would be MUCH easier on ALL of us if God just didn't have standards, and we could decide for ourselves how we should live.

I can't *tell* you how much I wish I could do what I want sometimes, but dang it, ::doh:: Jesus says to deny self.


Offline MeMyself

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #24 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 08:27:44 »
It has been explained to you how your exegete has failed to provide proper evidence for your claim.


Seems many today will attempt to re-translate scripture to suit their personal agendas.

I agree. Its frightening.

Exchanging long held godly truth for lies.  ::hiding::

That does not mean that where people have been abused and mistreated, that THAT was truth or right. Its not.  We must show grace even in the face of sin.

Offline Aaron Lindahl

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #25 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 08:30:01 »
Then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

It is not just myself who realizes this truth. These are the many denominations consisting of thousands of churches, and millions of people, who agree with the truth I share with you.

North America

• Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
• Anthem Phoenix & Family of Churches
• Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• Community of Christ
• Ecclesia Gnostica
• Ecumenical Catholic Church
• Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Episcopal Church (United States)
• Evangelical Anglican Church In America
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
• The Evangelical Network
• Friends General Conference
• Friends of Jesus Fellowship
• Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
• Inclusive Orthodox Church
• Metropolitan Community Church
• Old Catholic Church
• Presbyterian Church (USA)
• Progressive Christian Alliance
• Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
• Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA) — a Latter Day Saint denomination
• United Church of Christ
• United Church of Canada
• Unity Church

Europe

• German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in Evangelical Church in Germany
• German, Swiss, Austrian and Dutch Old Catholic Church
• Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Swiss reformed churches in Swiss Reformed Church
• Protestant Church in the Netherlands
• Church of Denmark
• Church of Norway
• Church of Sweden
• Church of Iceland
• United Protestant Church in Belgium
• Portugal - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• British Quakers
• Wales - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Albania - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in Italy (CELI)
• Poland - Christian United Church in Poland
• United Kingdom - United Ecumenical Catholic Church

Central and South America

• Brazil - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Colombia - Affirming Pentecostal Church International

Australia

• Baptist Affirming
• Uniting Church in Australia
• Anglican
• Metropolitan Community Churches
• Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Pentecostal Reformed

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #26 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 08:36:01 »
Then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

Quote
It is not just myself who realizes this truth. These are the many denominations consisting of thousands of churches, and millions of people, who agree with the truth I share with you.

This doesn't matter. Its not a contest of whose numbers are greater to prove truth or not.  Truth is proven in and by God's Word.

That it is needing to be altered and changed with claims of it being in error is very telling.




Offline Alan

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #27 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 08:37:19 »

Then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

It is not just myself who realizes this truth deception. These are the many denominations consisting of thousands of churches, and millions of people, who agree with the truth I share with you.

North America

• Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
• Anthem Phoenix & Family of Churches
• Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• Community of Christ
• Ecclesia Gnostica
• Ecumenical Catholic Church
• Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Episcopal Church (United States)
• Evangelical Anglican Church In America
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
• The Evangelical Network
• Friends General Conference
• Friends of Jesus Fellowship
• Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
• Inclusive Orthodox Church
• Metropolitan Community Church
• Old Catholic Church
• Presbyterian Church (USA)
• Progressive Christian Alliance
• Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
• Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA) — a Latter Day Saint denomination
• United Church of Christ
• United Church of Canada
• Unity Church

Europe

• German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in Evangelical Church in Germany
• German, Swiss, Austrian and Dutch Old Catholic Church
• Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Swiss reformed churches in Swiss Reformed Church
• Protestant Church in the Netherlands
• Church of Denmark
• Church of Norway
• Church of Sweden
• Church of Iceland
• United Protestant Church in Belgium
• Portugal - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• British Quakers
• Wales - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Albania - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in Italy (CELI)
• Poland - Christian United Church in Poland
• United Kingdom - United Ecumenical Catholic Church

Central and South America

• Brazil - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Colombia - Affirming Pentecostal Church International

Australia

• Baptist Affirming
• Uniting Church in Australia
• Anglican
• Metropolitan Community Churches
• Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Pentecostal Reformed

The fact that many have evolved into a liberal worldview makes no case for what Christ has called us to.

Matthew 7-13.14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #28 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:00:19 »
Seems many today will attempt to re-translate scripture to suit their personal agendas.

It's a very common practice, among those who cannot use the scriptures to defend their position. 

Offline DaveW

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #29 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:08:54 »
1 Corinthians 6:9   NASB95   Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,,

The last 2 terms there, homosexuals and sodomites, are the crux of your argument. in the Greek they are oute and arsenokoitēs respectively.

I do know if you are familiar with Dr Derek Prince; but he was a double king scholar from Eaton College and taught Greek Philosophy (Plato, Aristotle etc) at the graduate level IN GREEK prior to WW2 at Cambridge.  He was fluent in all forms of ancient Greek including Koine.

He described those last 2 words of 1 Cor 6.9 as being (in order) the more passive or feminine partner in a homosexual male relationship (oute); and the more masculine and agressive partner in a homosexual male relationship (arsenokoitēs).

Offline Aaron Lindahl

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #30 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:12:47 »
"This doesn't matter. Its not a contest of whose numbers are greater to prove truth or not.  Truth is proven in and by God's Word.That it is needing to be altered and changed with claims of it being in error is very telling."

Actually it matters a great deal.  Do you honestly think it was easy for all of these congregations to face the truth, and to realize that they had been taught a lie on this subject?  No, it wasn't.

What is telling is that so many Christians desire to know the 'truth', and have done so.. and what is even more telling is that some people when faced with the direct and honest translation that many Biblical scholars now agree on... still prefer a simplistic lie, because inside themselves they have a prejudice on this issue, and 'desire' it to be a sin to validate their own human error, even when shown it is not.  That is the greatest sadness.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #31 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:17:48 »
... most abused women are abused by men not women.

Right.  So male sexuality in general and male anatomy specifically becomes looked at as "the enemy." 

My wife has struggled with that.



yes, but sexual abuse by a man does seem to affect boys and girls differently. While girls may have problems with men generally after abuse, it doesnt seem to turn  them gay(At least with those I know).

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #32 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:20:13 »
I somehow missed the warm and Christian love being directed at me then in the comments. My apologies for mistaking them for attacks.

However, most of the comments show that they did not read the post before 'disagreeing' with what was posted, since the post goes into great detail on exactly how they are wrong.

To 'desire' something to be a sin when it is not, does not follow Jesus' teachings of love.
 

You have also not read most of the posts that were not attacking, but providing clear and simple Bible verses that show you what Gods intention for sex is, and what He forbids. Honestly its very simple and straight forward teaching. 
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:27:09 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #33 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:26:16 »
Then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

It is not just myself who realizes this truth. These are the many denominations consisting of thousands of churches, and millions of people, who agree with the truth I share with you.

North America

• Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
• Anthem Phoenix & Family of Churches
• Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• Community of Christ
• Ecclesia Gnostica
• Ecumenical Catholic Church
• Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Episcopal Church (United States)
• Evangelical Anglican Church In America
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
• The Evangelical Network
• Friends General Conference
• Friends of Jesus Fellowship
• Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
• Inclusive Orthodox Church
• Metropolitan Community Church
• Old Catholic Church
• Presbyterian Church (USA)
• Progressive Christian Alliance
• Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
• Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah, USA) — a Latter Day Saint denomination
• United Church of Christ
• United Church of Canada
• Unity Church

Europe

• German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in Evangelical Church in Germany
• German, Swiss, Austrian and Dutch Old Catholic Church
• Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Swiss reformed churches in Swiss Reformed Church
• Protestant Church in the Netherlands
• Church of Denmark
• Church of Norway
• Church of Sweden
• Church of Iceland
• United Protestant Church in Belgium
• Portugal - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• British Quakers
• Wales - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Albania - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in Italy (CELI)
• Poland - Christian United Church in Poland
• United Kingdom - United Ecumenical Catholic Church

Central and South America

• Brazil - Affirming Pentecostal Church International
• Colombia - Affirming Pentecostal Church International

Australia

• Baptist Affirming
• Uniting Church in Australia
• Anglican
• Metropolitan Community Churches
• Ecumenical Catholic Communion
• Pentecostal Reformed


Then they are clearly not reading their Bibles(not that I have ever heard of the majority of those denominations anyway.)
I have never met anyone in my country(the UK) who thinks as you do. Most pastors I know here would rather loose their jobs than marry or bless such a union.They long for gays to come to know God, but they would never condone what they do.  How can we bless what God doesnt?

Offline chosenone

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Re: Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..
« Reply #34 on: Fri Dec 05, 2014 - 09:31:07 »
"This doesn't matter. Its not a contest of whose numbers are greater to prove truth or not.  Truth is proven in and by God's Word.That it is needing to be altered and changed with claims of it being in error is very telling."

Actually it matters a great deal.  Do you honestly think it was easy for all of these congregations to face the truth, and to realize that they had been taught a lie on this subject?  No, it wasn't.

What is telling is that so many Christians desire to know the 'truth', and have done so.. and what is even more telling is that some people when faced with the direct and honest translation that many Biblical scholars now agree on... still prefer a simplistic lie, because inside themselves they have a prejudice on this issue, and 'desire' it to be a sin to validate their own human error, even when shown it is not.  That is the greatest sadness.

'A man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife'.
'Let each man have his own wife and let each woman have her own husband'.

How are those verses hard to understand?   

You have to choose Gods way or yours. We have had people here who also tried to justify hetrosexual sex outside marriage. That doesnt wash either.