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Offline maximoose

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I have question concerning christian thinking
« on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 17:16:11 »
I ask here as I havnt found anywhere else to ask.
I started to look for the reasons the Torah is part of the bible and not the Talmud.
I found they are both written at the same time, about 70ad/ce.
Once I began reading the Talmud the answer became obvious.
Then I had to ask myself, why do Christians support Israel?
I look for a legitimate answer as it is very odd indeed.
Isreal, is very Tamlidic Jewish, so why the support when these people consider the worship of Jesus idoltry? They say Mary was a prostitute and Jesus is now in hell boiling in excrement. How is it they have Christian support?
I do not go into depth, with what the Talmud purports, but its "thinking" is very much along these lines, especially when it says that debts to gentiles need not be repaid and that murder of a gentile is not considered murder.

So, my legitimate and sincere question, How is it that Christians support Isreal?

Two recent events was the destruction of the place Jesus was baptised by John and the destruction of the Tomb of Jonah, Christian holy sites, why no mention? and how is it that Christians either support or don't mention these events?

I find this confusing, what is it I don't understand?
Thank you for your effort in answering.

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I have question concerning christian thinking
« on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 17:16:11 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #1 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 17:27:35 »
We support Israel because the Jews are are Gods chosen people, and it a very special and Holy place. Also because God says that we should.

Genesis 12:2-3, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you"
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 17:33:43 by chosenone »

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #2 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 17:36:49 »
Who should we support? The Arabs that want to push Israel into the sea? The God of Israel is the same God as the Christian God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Arab God is not.

Offline new creature

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #3 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 17:57:24 »
I ask here as I havnt found anywhere else to ask.
I started to look for the reasons the Torah is part of the bible and not the Talmud.
I found they are both written at the same time, about 70ad/ce.
Once I began reading the Talmud the answer became obvious.
Then I had to ask myself, why do Christians support Israel?
I look for a legitimate answer as it is very odd indeed.
Isreal, is very Tamlidic Jewish, so why the support when these people consider the worship of Jesus idoltry? They say Mary was a prostitute and Jesus is now in hell boiling in excrement. How is it they have Christian support?
I do not go into depth, with what the Talmud purports, but its "thinking" is very much along these lines, especially when it says that debts to gentiles need not be repaid and that murder of a gentile is not considered murder.

So, my legitimate and sincere question, How is it that Christians support Isreal?

Two recent events was the destruction of the place Jesus was baptised by John and the destruction of the Tomb of Jonah, Christian holy sites, why no mention? and how is it that Christians either support or don't mention these events?

I find this confusing, what is it I don't understand?
Thank you for your effort in answering.

Real Christians are born of God.


Lots of people have idols. The country Israel can be one of them.

I suspect many people who claim to be Christian aren't born of God.

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #4 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 18:24:59 »
No country is perfect. In the Middle East, Israel is as close to a friend and ally as anyone else in the region. To me it has little to do with being a Christian or not. Though I am certain God is not through with the Jewish people.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 18:46:25 by Jaime »

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #4 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 18:24:59 »



Offline MeMyself

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #5 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 18:32:51 »
We support Israel because the Jews are are Gods chosen people, and it a very special and Holy place. Also because God says that we should.

Genesis 12:2-3, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you"

good post!

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #6 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 18:34:44 »
I don't think the political nation of Israel as it exists today has any relationship to biblical Israel - but having said that, I am pro-supporting Israel as the only democracy and our only real ally in that part of the world.

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #7 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 18:53:19 »
I don't think the political nation of Israel as it exists today has any relationship to biblical Israel - but having said that, I am pro-supporting Israel as the only democracy and our only real ally in that part of the world.

The only reason we need to support Israel.

Offline maximoose

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #8 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 18:59:44 »
Reply to the reason  support Isreal being a verse in Genisus. Im afraid I cant accept that, Genisus is Torah, these are the same people that wrote the Talmud, makes sense they would include there that Christian should support Isreal.
I just don't believe Jesus would approve of the people that claim its ok to murder gentiles, nor do I think Jesus would appreciate them calling his mother a prostitute.
There has to be another reason.
If you were to read the Talmud, I think you might find a great deal Jesus would not approve of.
I found ALOT that I disagree with.
I found the promotion of some truly disgusting acts.
I have not found my answer as to why we support Isreal.
Thanks for attempting to answer tho.

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #9 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:00:42 »
Reply to the reason  support Isreal being a verse in Genisus. Im afraid I cant accept that, Genisus is Torah, these are the same people that wrote the Talmud, makes sense they would include there that Christian should support Isreal.
I just don't believe Jesus would approve of the people that claim its ok to murder gentiles, nor do I think Jesus would appreciate them calling his mother a prostitute.
There has to be another reason.
If you were to read the Talmud, I think you might find a great deal Jesus would not approve of.
I found ALOT that I disagree with.
I found the promotion of some truly disgusting acts.
I have not found my answer as to why we support Isreal.
Thanks for attempting to answer tho.

Are you in support of Islam?

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #10 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:04:41 »
Obviously he is.

Offline maximoose

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #11 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:07:54 »
Reply, do I support Islam?
My God is Jesus, even tho Islam shares the same God as Christians, the God of Abraham.
To be honust, I have never really thought much of Moses either, as he committed the genocide in Canan, just as is being committed today in Iraq and Syria. They follow the exact same "script" Moses used.
But again, this is Torah, old testament, Jesus gives us a new covenant.

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #12 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:08:24 »
Obviously he is.

Well, I wanted him to answer because how can he possibly object to Israel based on truly disgusting acts, when Islam has been in the news for atrocity after atrocity disgusting act after disgusting act!

Offline MeMyself

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #13 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:10:07 »
Reply, do I support Islam?
My God is Jesus, even tho Islam shares the same God as Christians, the God of Abraham.
To be honust, I have never really thought much of Moses either, as he committed the genocide in Canan, just as is being committed today in Iraq and Syria. They follow the exact same "script" Moses used.
But again, this is Torah, old testament, Jesus gives us a new covenant.

I don't think this answers which you support.


Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #14 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:12:10 »
The Talmud is not scripture. The Tanahk (sp?) is the Hebrew name for the Old Testament. The Talmud is only rabbinic commentary, not scripture. Arguing over the Talmud isike arguing about a present day Bible commentator.

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #15 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:14:36 »
Alah and Jehovah are most certainly not the same. Sorry

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #16 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:19:03 »
jehovah God commanded the Israelites to kill men,  women and children of the Caananites, it was not something concocted by Moses. The problems over there today are in large part because they didn't Obey God.

The unchanging Jehovah in the OT is the very same Jehovah in the NT. It is all ONE story.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:26:01 by Jaime »

Offline Rella

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #17 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:32:10 »
Reply, do I support Islam?
My God is Jesus, even tho Islam shares the same God as Christians, the God of Abraham.
To be honust, I have never really thought much of Moses either, as he committed the genocide in Canan, just as is being committed today in Iraq and Syria. They follow the exact same "script" Moses used.
But again, this is Torah, old testament, Jesus gives us a new covenant.

If for no other reason then your stating that your God is Jesus, Israel should be supported.

Jesus was a Jew.

The Jews were and are God's chosen people and if you read the New Testament you would know that Jesus initially came for the Jews
first...

 Mathew 15:24

24 But He answered and said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

It was later that He started the acceptance of the Gentiles.... (That would be us.. including you)

So, aside from whatever the Talmud may or may not say....

If God's preferred are the Jews we better dog gone well support Israel, because in the beginning we were not even thought about
in reference to Jesus.


Offline Willie T

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #18 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:37:50 »
The Israel of God is all people who believe in Jesus through faith.  But we mistakenly still think it is the nation of Israel spoken of in Genesis that God has made His church...simply because of bloodline..... when they do not accept Jesus at all.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 08:05:52 by Willie T »

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #19 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:48:52 »
Someday they will, per Romans 11. God is not through with the Jews.

The Israel of God, his olive tree will consist of wild branches grafted on and once broken off natural branches grafted back on........ In Christ of course.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #20 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 19:49:38 »
Someday they will, per Romans 11. God is not through with the Jews.

I agree!

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #21 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 20:15:21 »
No country is perfect. In the Middle East, Israel is as close to a friend and ally as anyone else in the region. To me it has little to do with being a Christian or not. Though I am certain God is not through with the Jewish people.

God is not finished with anyone.  He is finished with the legal system that was in place before the cross, and we are now under eschatological Grace that relies on what Christ has done, not on human merit or obedience to ordinances.  We are to be led by the Spirit, not a rule book.  (Do we really need to refer to a list of rules to know that we should wash our hands when we've touched something unclean?)  God has used Hebrew believers as part of His plan to reconcile mankind back to Him.   The Book of Romans is clear that God does not favor the Jew over the Gentile or vice-versa.

I agree that we should support them these days because they are allies with the United States and we have a mutual enemy - Islamists who hate both Jews and Christians in general.   

notreligus

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #22 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 20:41:17 »
I ask here as I havnt found anywhere else to ask.
I started to look for the reasons the Torah is part of the bible and not the Talmud.
I found they are both written at the same time, about 70ad/ce.
Once I began reading the Talmud the answer became obvious.
Then I had to ask myself, why do Christians support Israel?
I look for a legitimate answer as it is very odd indeed.
Isreal, is very Tamlidic Jewish, so why the support when these people consider the worship of Jesus idoltry? They say Mary was a prostitute and Jesus is now in hell boiling in excrement. How is it they have Christian support?
I do not go into depth, with what the Talmud purports, but its "thinking" is very much along these lines, especially when it says that debts to gentiles need not be repaid and that murder of a gentile is not considered murder.

So, my legitimate and sincere question, How is it that Christians support Isreal?

Two recent events was the destruction of the place Jesus was baptised by John and the destruction of the Tomb of Jonah, Christian holy sites, why no mention? and how is it that Christians either support or don't mention these events?

I find this confusing, what is it I don't understand?
Thank you for your effort in answering.


The Zionist Movement, which began in the late 1800's, along with Dispensationalism which is a system of interpreting the end-times aspects of the Bible was also developed in the late 1800's.   Dispensationalism has become a system of interpreting the Bible just as Systematic Theology is a system of Bible interpretation.   Dispensationalism and Zionism are focused on the Jews and what is called their earthly blessings which have been promised to them and these are to be fulfilled sometime in the future.   This is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.   Search for more information on the Zionist Movement.   If you search deeply enough you are going to find something that may surprise you and that is that the vast majority of Jews wish that Christians would mind their own business, leave Israel alone, and stop promoting the fact that Israel is confined to a tiny Middle Eastern country.   Most Jews believe that God wanted them to affect all of the world and not be focused on a small piece of real estate.   Check me out on that.   Hermann Cohen was a Jewish philosopher who still has a profound influence on Jews today, especially the Reformed and Messianist (don't confuse with Messianic as they are not related) Jews.   

John Hagee is an example of an extreme Zionist and Full Dispensational.   He teaches that there are two covenants in effect.   He claims that the Old Covenant is in effect and any Jew who follows the Torah is just as saved as a Christian who is under the authority of Christ.   He tells Christians to leave the Jews alone and to not evangelize them because God considers them to still be His people under the Old Covenant.  That is called Covenantal Nomism.   The New Covenant is not in effect and the Book of Hebrews has no meaning to Christians, according to these people.   The New Covenant is to take effect when Christ begins His earthly reign on the Earth.    Christians are to have heavenly blessings.  Christians will be raptured from the Earth and never return. 

Partial Dispensationals believe that Christ will reign for a thousand years in the future.   When He does the Temple will be rebuilt, the Mosaic Law, priesthood, and animal sacrifices will be restored.   The Israelites who make it through the Great Tribulation (2/3 are to die) will be left to go to the world and evangelize the Gentiles.   There are Christians today who have been convinced by Zionist preachers that they are still Gentiles and inferior to the Jews.   They say that they know what Christ accomplished on the cross but then they contradict this verse:

Galatians 3:16  Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

If you are in Christ you are the benefactor of the promises made to Abraham.   Who is the benefactor of the promises?   Christ.   We share in those benefits as joint heirs with Christ.  Before the foundation of the world God envisioned the Church.   The Church are collectively ALL of His people, the elect. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #23 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 20:44:18 »
Who's talking about a list? I only said God is not through with the Jews as some assert, and he is not. Romans 11 was written to the Roman Christians to not be arrogant to the Jews because God is not through with them. Nothing mystical or sinister or heretical implied.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 20:51:03 by Jaime »

Offline maximoose

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #24 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 22:12:14 »
Thanks for all the input.
Let me be clear, I am not "arguing" over the Talmud.
My question is why should I support the people that write it.
These are the same people that wrote the Torah, first 5 books of the bible.
Why should I support the people that believe my God is idol worship? That my Gods mother is a prostitute, and that it is ok to rape children under 3 as well as many other unspeakable acts?
The Talmud makes it clear why Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees.
I do appreciate all input, but I am not convinced I should support Israel.
As to the comment they are different Gods, I view all 3 religions as having the God of Abraham, same God.
In no way do I support the murders etc. by the Islamics in Iraq and Syria today, but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #25 on: Thu Aug 21, 2014 - 23:00:09 »
but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.


Oh brother...

Offline chosenone

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #26 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 04:05:37 »
Thanks for all the input.
Let me be clear, I am not "arguing" over the Talmud.
My question is why should I support the people that write it.
These are the same people that wrote the Torah, first 5 books of the bible.
Why should I support the people that believe my God is idol worship? That my Gods mother is a prostitute, and that it is ok to rape children under 3 as well as many other unspeakable acts?
The Talmud makes it clear why Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees.
I do appreciate all input, but I am not convinced I should support Israel.
As to the comment they are different Gods, I view all 3 religions as having the God of Abraham, same God.
In no way do I support the murders etc. by the Islamics in Iraq and Syria today, but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.

 
 Are you a Christian or a muslim?

AS Christians we are to pray for Israel and support them. God has said that to us. Israel will be the center of the events just before Jesus returns. He will return there. God says He will bless those who bless them, and curse those who curse them as I have already posted. I disagree with those who who say that the present day Israel has little to do with the Israel of the OT.  God was in the reinstatement of Israel in 1948, and He will moved mightily there in the future. They are still His chosen people, we have been grafted into the vine as gentiles but they are still the original people of God.

Also Allah is NOT the real God.  There is only one God, and He is the one in the Bible and he isnt Allah. 

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notreligus

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #28 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 07:48:13 »
Thanks for all the input.
Let me be clear, I am not "arguing" over the Talmud.
My question is why should I support the people that write it.
These are the same people that wrote the Torah, first 5 books of the bible.
Why should I support the people that believe my God is idol worship? That my Gods mother is a prostitute, and that it is ok to rape children under 3 as well as many other unspeakable acts?
The Talmud makes it clear why Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees.
I do appreciate all input, but I am not convinced I should support Israel.
As to the comment they are different Gods, I view all 3 religions as having the God of Abraham, same God.
In no way do I support the murders etc. by the Islamics in Iraq and Syria today, but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.

There are religious extremists in all religions.   A boss I had one time who was Jewish, and born in upstate New York state, literally hated the Hasidic Jews who ran businesses in NYC, and told me that they were the most ruthless and dishonest business people on the Earth.   During my growing-up years from grade school through high school, outside of my musician friends, all other friends were Jews.  Same with my sister.   Her best friend was a Jew.  I was the unofficial goy member of a Jewish fraternity.   I ran with all of those guys like I was one of them.   I heard their parents speak of goys and my best friend was raked over the coals for dating a shiksa (Gentile female).  The most liberal Jew has some biases, but not as many as most Christians have.   Jews, for the most part, do not discriminate because of race or religion, at least not at the personal level, but behind the scenes they think Gentiles are a bit kooky.  Who can argue?   

Israel is not as pro-Christian as some want us to believe.   You can't just go walking the streets of Jerusalem and preach the Gospel of Christ.   They won't let you.   A couple of miles from where I live a church had a "support Israel" service just last week.   Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was "present" via live video streaming.   Perry Stone is a regular there and he comes in with his latest end-times projections based on current events.   Israel love Christian support.   Christians pressure our government to send money to them.  CUFI (Christians United For Israel) has encouraged our government to bomb Iran for many years.   I suppose they have expanded that bombing list by now since other Middle Eastern countries seem to be equal to Iran as far as being an enemy to Israel.  Genesis 12:3 is used to convict Christians to not say anything negative about Israel.   Christ said plenty about religious Jews who always ignored the Holy Spirit.  Christ Himself is true Israel, having fulfilled the promises to Abraham, but that is pushed aside.   Still God does not want us to hate them.   He wants us to take the Gospel to them just like any other people group.   God is not a racist and neither should would we be.   The most radical Jew, who hates Gentiles and mocks Christ, will answer to God Almighty.   We should not lump all of them into the same dough.

I started making more posts here about Jews and Israel because everything I was reading was presenting the Jews as though they are one homogenous group.   That's simply not correct.   Many of them think that Christians are putting Jews worldwide in more peril by our interference in the Middle East and our support of Israel.  They believe that Christians cause the rise in anti-Semitism.  I know that when I type such things here that most people don't believe me.  They are too lazy or too hard-headed to look into these things for themselves.   I have investigated these things myself and would not say them if I didn't know they were true.   I suggest to you that if you are on the fence about Israel, just stay there.   Don't jump over to the side of wanting to persecute the Jews.   They have endured enough of that.   If some of the Jewish radicals mock Christians, just consider that they are not alone.   Evangelical Christians are mocked by many, including groups who are known to be "Christian."  Christ has many enemies but He will deal with them in His own way.   He died that "whosoever" might be saved.   Judaism won't save anybody.   No religion saves.  Only Christ saves.  Pray for Jews/Israel to be saved, as they can be saved only by God's Grace which was provided through faith in the finished work of Christ.   Covenantal Nomism will not save them.   

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #29 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 08:00:17 »
Thanks for all the input.
Let me be clear, I am not "arguing" over the Talmud.
My question is why should I support the people that write it.
These are the same people that wrote the Torah, first 5 books of the bible.
Why should I support the people that believe my God is idol worship? That my Gods mother is a prostitute, and that it is ok to rape children under 3 as well as many other unspeakable acts?
The Talmud makes it clear why Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees.
I do appreciate all input, but I am not convinced I should support Israel.
As to the comment they are different Gods, I view all 3 religions as having the God of Abraham, same God.
In no way do I support the murders etc. by the Islamics in Iraq and Syria today, but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.


No, you do not have to "support" Israel. You do not have to choose in favor of Israel, what it does or what it stands for.
No more will you have to support any other country in this world.

But think of this:
When David was in the cave with Saul, he had the opportunity to kill Saul, and he did not.
Because David did not want to raise his hand against the "anointed of God".

And I think this is the attitude we should have towards Israel.
Even though they may not necessarily be right...we should be very careful to raise our hand against God's chosen people.
Not because of the people or their actions, but because of a God who will definitely be offended if we do.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 08:02:43 by AVZ »

notreligus

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #30 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 08:34:01 »
Thanks for all the input.
Let me be clear, I am not "arguing" over the Talmud.
My question is why should I support the people that write it.
These are the same people that wrote the Torah, first 5 books of the bible.
Why should I support the people that believe my God is idol worship? That my Gods mother is a prostitute, and that it is ok to rape children under 3 as well as many other unspeakable acts?
The Talmud makes it clear why Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees.
I do appreciate all input, but I am not convinced I should support Israel.
As to the comment they are different Gods, I view all 3 religions as having the God of Abraham, same God.
In no way do I support the murders etc. by the Islamics in Iraq and Syria today, but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.


No, you do not have to "support" Israel. You do not have to choose in favor of Israel, what it does or what it stands for.
No more will you have to support any other country in this world.

But think of this:
When David was in the cave with Saul, he had the opportunity to kill Saul, and he did not.
Because David did not want to raise his hand against the "anointed of God".

And I think this is the attitude we should have towards Israel.
Even though they may not necessarily be right...we should be very careful to raise our hand against God's chosen people.
Not because of the people or their actions, but because of a God who will definitely be offended if we do.


John 5:44  How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
John 5:45  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.
John 5:46  For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

The Jews were "chosen" because God chose to bring forth the Savior of the World through them.   He has come to the world to save the world.   

I know that Christians mean well when they say that Israel are the chosen, and mean that in reference to national Israel.   Who are the Church that God envisioned before the foundation of the world?   Shouldn't we read all of the Book of Romans and not emphasize only Chapters 9 to 11?   Paul admonished Jews and Gentiles ALIKE to not think that they are superior positionally before God Almighty.   Is Jesus not the Great High Priest of both Jew and Gentile such that He makes no distinction?   Let's stay with the Scriptures.   God's plan for mankind began in Eden not on Mt. Sinai.   

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #31 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 08:44:23 »
I support Israel because they are surrounded by practitioners of Islam.  Muhammed was a mass murderer, a rapist, a thief and a pedophile.  This is from Islamic sources.  I support anyone in the cross hairs of the followers of that evil man.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #32 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 09:33:09 »
Thanks for all the input.
Let me be clear, I am not "arguing" over the Talmud.
My question is why should I support the people that write it.
These are the same people that wrote the Torah, first 5 books of the bible.
Why should I support the people that believe my God is idol worship? That my Gods mother is a prostitute, and that it is ok to rape children under 3 as well as many other unspeakable acts?
The Talmud makes it clear why Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees.
I do appreciate all input, but I am not convinced I should support Israel.
As to the comment they are different Gods, I view all 3 religions as having the God of Abraham, same God.
In no way do I support the murders etc. by the Islamics in Iraq and Syria today, but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.


No, you do not have to "support" Israel. You do not have to choose in favor of Israel, what it does or what it stands for.
No more will you have to support any other country in this world.

But think of this:
When David was in the cave with Saul, he had the opportunity to kill Saul, and he did not.
Because David did not want to raise his hand against the "anointed of God".

And I think this is the attitude we should have towards Israel.
Even though they may not necessarily be right...we should be very careful to raise our hand against God's chosen people.
Not because of the people or their actions, but because of a God who will definitely be offended if we do.


Good post!

Offline Jaime

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #33 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 09:34:30 »
Thanks for all the input.
Let me be clear, I am not "arguing" over the Talmud.
My question is why should I support the people that write it.
These are the same people that wrote the Torah, first 5 books of the bible.
Why should I support the people that believe my God is idol worship? That my Gods mother is a prostitute, and that it is ok to rape children under 3 as well as many other unspeakable acts?
The Talmud makes it clear why Jesus had an issue with the Pharisees.
I do appreciate all input, but I am not convinced I should support Israel.
As to the comment they are different Gods, I view all 3 religions as having the God of Abraham, same God.
In no way do I support the murders etc. by the Islamics in Iraq and Syria today, but I cant support people that believe to murder myself my family, rape my children and believe Jesus is being boiled in excrement for all eternity either.

There are religious extremists in all religions.   A boss I had one time who was Jewish, and born in upstate New York state, literally hated the Hasidic Jews who ran businesses in NYC, and told me that they were the most ruthless and dishonest business people on the Earth.   During my growing-up years from grade school through high school, outside of my musician friends, all other friends were Jews.  Same with my sister.   Her best friend was a Jew.  I was the unofficial goy member of a Jewish fraternity.   I ran with all of those guys like I was one of them.   I heard their parents speak of goys and my best friend was raked over the coals for dating a shiksa (Gentile female).  The most liberal Jew has some biases, but not as many as most Christians have.   Jews, for the most part, do not discriminate because of race or religion, at least not at the personal level, but behind the scenes they think Gentiles are a bit kooky.  Who can argue?   

Israel is not as pro-Christian as some want us to believe.   You can't just go walking the streets of Jerusalem and preach the Gospel of Christ.   They won't let you.   A couple of miles from where I live a church had a "support Israel" service just last week.   Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was "present" via live video streaming.   Perry Stone is a regular there and he comes in with his latest end-times projections based on current events.   Israel love Christian support.   Christians pressure our government to send money to them.  CUFI (Christians United For Israel) has encouraged our government to bomb Iran for many years.   I suppose they have expanded that bombing list by now since other Middle Eastern countries seem to be equal to Iran as far as being an enemy to Israel.  Genesis 12:3 is used to convict Christians to not say anything negative about Israel.   Christ said plenty about religious Jews who always ignored the Holy Spirit.  Christ Himself is true Israel, having fulfilled the promises to Abraham, but that is pushed aside.   Still God does not want us to hate them.   He wants us to take the Gospel to them just like any other people group.   God is not a racist and neither should would we be.   The most radical Jew, who hates Gentiles and mocks Christ, will answer to God Almighty.   We should not lump all of them into the same dough.

I started making more posts here about Jews and Israel because everything I was reading was presenting the Jews as though they are one homogenous group.   That's simply not correct.   Many of them think that Christians are putting Jews worldwide in more peril by our interference in the Middle East and our support of Israel.  They believe that Christians cause the rise in anti-Semitism.  I know that when I type such things here that most people don't believe me.  They are too lazy or too hard-headed to look into these things for themselves.   I have investigated these things myself and would not say them if I didn't know they were true.   I suggest to you that if you are on the fence about Israel, just stay there.   Don't jump over to the side of wanting to persecute the Jews.   They have endured enough of that.   If some of the Jewish radicals mock Christians, just consider that they are not alone.   Evangelical Christians are mocked by many, including groups who are known to be "Christian."  Christ has many enemies but He will deal with them in His own way.   He died that "whosoever" might be saved.   Judaism won't save anybody.   No religion saves.  Only Christ saves.  Pray for Jews/Israel to be saved, as they can be saved only by God's Grace which was provided through faith in the finished work of Christ.   Covenantal Nomism will not save them.   

This is true. Most Jews even Jews in America don't like Christians. Most Jews are secular and not observant Jews. A very small minority are Messianic. The Jews as a whole have been blinded as per Romans 11. I believe that blindness or hardness will turn around someday. Also, most Jews in America are inexplicably Democratic voters. Go figure. Their blindness is not only applicable to spiritual matters.

And I agree that only Christ will save the Jews as He is the only savior of mankind. Covenantal Nomianism will not save the Jews. That is one thing I disagree with John Hagee. The Law never did save anyone and still won't.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 09:36:48 by Jaime »

Offline OldDad

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Re: I have question concerning christian thinking
« Reply #34 on: Fri Aug 22, 2014 - 10:12:00 »
The Israel of God is all people who believe in Jesus through faith.  But we mistakenly still think it is the nation of Israel spoken of in Genesis that God has made His church...simply because of bloodline..... when they do not accept Jesus at all.

Right. Any Jews who are grafted back in must now come to God by way - not of their birth, ancestry, or nationality - but by way of faith in Christ.

Either that or Jesus lied in John 14:6.